A man tried to set up Pakistan's first gay club, he was put in a mental hospital

[Abel Reames]

I think most of it is just a sense of masculinity across the board rather than particular environmental factors.

For example we have esteemed Santani posters taking a mocking tone towards homosexuals in Pakistan. This is despite the fact homosexuality is acceptable in their religion and culture and they have literally worshipped gay gods since childhood.

I think most straight men have an innate revulsion towards homosexual acts.

It is not innate, we have been socialised that way. In the 70s and 80s, I think the UK was more homophobic than Pakistan, straight men would hold hands as a sign of friendship, you couldn't do that here, nowadays I think Pakistan is more homophobic as UK/West has enacted equal rights, and countries like Pakistan think they don't want Sodom and Gamorrah on their doorsteps.

As for masculinity, Ancient Egypt, Ancient Greece, Rome had no issues with homosexuality until the advent of Christianity. You can't get more masculine than Sparta where the warriors would partake in pederasty, which still happens in Afghanistan, don't tell me they are not men steeped in masculinity.

I think revulsion is socialised in the same way, I as an agnostic atheist/cultural muslim still cannot eat ham/pork/bacon etc, the look and smell turns my stomach, I mean there is no rational reason for me to not eat pork, but a muslim upbringing where I and my friends were at best conditioned, at worse brainwashed into thinking that the pig was dirty/filthy is the reason why I still feel revulsion.

 

[Stewie]

My apologies for triggering you but I suspect I know more about modern day Pakistan than you do. Your information is dated, while I have live sources there now that I trust. Cheers

I think tons of tv shows, films, raunchy stage shows emanating from Pakistan tells me my information is not dated and your statement about "Entertainment is Haram in Pakistan" remains idiotic and buffoonish in my view, no matter what date you refer to here. With all due respect.

 

[Abel Reames]

Bi-people could have a combination of the elusive homo/hetero gene making them susceptible to both behaviours.

Agreed! So what if they have not found a gay gene, they haven't found a single gene responsible for intelligence but studies show that intelligence has a genetic component.

DNA is so important to life, it determines the way you look, your height, your height, what sex you are, all these determine how the rest of the world perceived you, the individual, which will go along way determining what sort of path you travel in the world. Also DNA determines brain structure, your hormone levels and the way you behave and think.

You would have thought books purporting to be both divine and scientific may have mentioned this.

Back on topic, personally speaking I think sexuality is on a spectrum, not binary. Dependent on genes and environment. I think some people are so strongly genetically primed for say homo/heterosexuality that the environment will make no difference but further along the spectrum the genetic component is not as strong and this is where the environment comes into play, whether it is favourable or hostile to a particular sexuality and that may determine which way one swings.

On the specific point regarding bisexuality - I think in the Sodom/Gamorrah times we live in some people are truly free of societal pressure and their genetics are not strongly one way or another and they like to experiment. I don't see many life long bisexuals, usually they make their mind up at some point.

 

[Abel Reames]

No one has mentioned this yet in the flame wars going on here, is India the same as Pakistan and elsewhere in the world and at different times everywhere, that the only person that is considered gay is the one taking the female role?

 

[guard]

You must live in Pakistan with a large circle of friends. You seem to have a lot of inside info.

Or is this some magical dharma art of remotely seeing things non Hindus have no clue about?

Just the usual crap tripe from the usual tripers

 

[Stewie]

Just the usual crap tripe from the usual tripers

but he cant be wrong because he talks daily to his apostate former Muslim friends in Pakistan who tell him there is no entertainment in Pakistan.

 

[guard]

No one has mentioned this yet in the flame wars going on here, is India the same as Pakistan and elsewhere in the world and at different times everywhere, that the only person that is considered gay is the one taking the female role?

Now hold on one dang minute, what about Sparta!!! They was all men, ya hear, no ladies there or anywhere.

 

[Local.Dada]

Why would you need to go to Pakistan to get into a gay night club when presumably there must be plenty available in India?

There are nightclubs in India for sure. You probably are not allowed to go in the vicinity in Uk but quite a few there as well. Now gay night club in India I can’t help you there as I am not sure they exist but I would assume you would have to network your way through once you enter the night club. Hope that info helps you when/if Indian visa is approved.

 

[RexRex]

but he cant be wrong because he talks daily to his apostate former Muslim friends in Pakistan who tell him there is no entertainment in Pakistan.

I didn't say that but come to think of it you might have a point lol.

 

[Stewie]

There are nightclubs in India for sure. You probably are not allowed to go in the vicinity in Uk but quite a few there as well. Now gay night club in India I can’t help you there as I am not sure they exist but I would assume you would have to network your way through once you enter the night club. Hope that info helps you when/if Indian visa is approved.

I don't think there are any gays in India since there is plenty of entertainment around. There are probably GAY CLUBS IN NAME only where guys like to dress up and prance around pretending to be gay but they all have regular lives with wives and kids.

 

[Local.Dada]

I don't think there are any gays in India since there is plenty of entertainment around. There are probably GAY CLUBS IN NAME only where guys like to dress up and prance around pretending to be gay but they all have regular lives with wives and kids.

that was so random, what’s the context?

 

[RexRex]

Back on topic, personally speaking I think sexuality is on a spectrum, not binary. Dependent on genes and environment. I think some people are so strongly genetically primed for say homo/heterosexuality that the environment will make no difference but further along the spectrum the genetic component is not as strong and this is where the environment comes into play, whether it is favourable or hostile to a particular sexuality and that may determine which way one swings.

That's a pretty sensible way to describe it - plausible indeed.

 

[Stewie]

I wonder where on the spectrum these two fall between the "born so gay tons of entertainment did not fix my gayness" and "maybe gay cuz my cable went out and hasnt been back in two weeks" ends. I am going to ask brother @Bhaijaan to comment here. I am sure he received a pamphlet on this topic on his trip to Faisalabad.

 

[Stewie]

These poor fellas probably don't even have electricity. @Bhaijaan what jantar mantra would you recommend for them?

 

[RexRex]

Since we're now discussing India, I guess I'll just link this thread here that I started last year about a lesbian lawyer couple in India and how their fathers reacted.

My gay daughter and her partner

I just read the article below which I thought was becoming more commonplace in India. The author is a former diplomat, appears on indian TV shows regularly and a BJP supporter. The piece is about how he was reacted to the shock news of his daughter telling her she is gay. How would you react as...

ppforum.pakpassion.net

 

[Abel Reames]

It is like being back at school, who is gayer than who. Reminds me back at Uni when a series of events led this small town Muslim boy to visit Asian guy night in Farringdon, late 80s. It helped that I was invited by a Brahmin Hindu girl with her straight sisters, one of whom had a boyfriend so at least I could chill with them. When the girl (her sexuality being unbeknownst to me)first asked me what I thought of gays - should be shot and burn in hell was my answer, not that I had given it much thought up until then.

Asian guy night! I told her there are no gays where I come from. Got in, kept my back to the wall, went to the loos with the straight guy, well uncomfortable.

What a sight to behold, at the bar, two guys speaking potwari, guys in saris, Indians, Sri Lankans, brown people, all having fun I guess. Sexuality doesn't have borders.

Tho when two guys, both straight looking french kissed on the dance, that was the moment I knew I wasn't gay, for sure.

 

[Abel Reames]

Now hold on one dang minute, what about Sparta!!! They was all men, ya hear, no ladies there or anywhere.

On the contrary Spartan women had more freedom than say the Athenians, they could legally own and inherit property, conduct business deals, pretty impressive.

 

[DeadlyVenom]

It is like being back at school, who is gayer than who. Reminds me back at Uni when a series of events led this small town Muslim boy to visit Asian guy night in Farringdon, late 80s. It helped that I was invited by a Brahmin Hindu girl with her straight sisters, one of whom had a boyfriend so at least I could chill with them. When the girl (her sexuality being unbeknownst to me)first asked me what I thought of gays - should be shot and burn in hell was my answer, not that I had given it much thought up until then.

Asian guy night! I told her there are no gays where I come from. Got in, kept my back to the wall, went to the loos with the straight guy, well uncomfortable.

What a sight to behold, at the bar, two guys speaking potwari, guys in saris, Indians, Sri Lankans, brown people, all having fun I guess. Sexuality doesn't have borders.

Tho when two guys, both straight looking french kissed on the dance, that was the moment I knew I wasn't gay, for sure.

Is the point you lost your face?

How do you feel about men kissing now? I think many people have an intellectual acceptance of it but still physically its something they don't want to see.

 

[Mamoon]

As a doctor, you need to engage with the science on these issues ... and not get your medical advice from the Quran.

Do you have any peer reviewed papers to back your claim that homosexuality would qualify as a mental disorder?

What medical treatment do you think is warranted?

Homosexuality was listed as a mental disorder until 1987. It was removed not because of advancement in “science” but because of social pressure. You can read about it if you want.

Homosexuals need help. They are going against the conventions of nature. Every species is heterosexual by default because survival is the basic instinct of every species.

Seems like only this mental sickness has been visible in animals and humans for thousands of years.

Maybe tomorrow a religion would prop up and say using iphone as mental sickness and everyone would just find everything against Iphone and use it as a defense.

But who told you that animals, or non-humans, cannot be mentally sick and who told you that mental sickness has a start date in human history?

Humans and animals have suffered from mental disorders since they came into existence.

“Animals are homosexual too therefore it is natural” is the dumbest line of argument possible. There are animals who also eat their offspring. I suppose that is “natural” too.

We will not accept homosexuality and we will stand by it. As simple as that. If you want to vouch for homosexuality please don’t expect your views to be welcome here and we will not mince our words.

My children will grow up learning the ills of homosexuality and how it has no acceptance and no tolerance in our culture, religion and society. If you have a problem with it that is your problem, but please learn to respect our views.

Indians can accept homosexuality to appease the West who continue to force their mental disorders and delusions down everyone’s throats under the guise of freedom.

As per them, a lunatic identifying himself as a garden chair is a sane human being and so are the they/them, non- binary crowd. Absolutely nonsense.

No wonder the western family system is broken with gay couples adopting children.

The solution to broken family systems of the west is a weird obsession with pets specially dogs who are disgusting animals and don’t belong in a household.

 

[Abel Reames]

Is the point you lost your face?

How do you feel about men kissing now? I think many people have an intellectual acceptance of it but still physically its something they don't want to see.

I was making a point about the to and froing on this thread about who out of the Indians or Pakistanis were gayer. I agree with your second point but I don't think it holds true for everyone.

 

[DeadlyVenom]

I was making a point about the to and froing on this thread about who out of the Indians or Pakistanis were gayer. I agree with your second point but I don't think it holds true for everyone.

Sorry my question was mistyped. I meant was this the point you lost your faith?

 

[Abel Reames]

Homosexuality was listed as a mental disorder until 1987. It was removed not because of advancement in “science” but because of social pressure. You can read about it if you want.

Homosexuals need help. They are going against the conventions of nature. Every species is heterosexual by default because survival is the basic instinct of every species.



But who told you that animals, or non-humans, cannot be mentally sick and who told you that mental sickness has a start date in human history?

Humans and animals have suffered from mental disorders since they came into existence.

“Animals are homosexual too therefore it is natural” is the dumbest line of argument possible. There are animals who also eat their offspring. I suppose that is “natural” too.

We will not accept homosexuality and we will stand by it. As simple as that. If you want to vouch for homosexuality please don’t expect your views to be welcome here and we will not mince our words.

My children will grow up learning the ills of homosexuality and how it has no acceptance and no tolerance in our culture, religion and society. If you have a problem with it that is your problem, but please learn to respect our views.

Indians can accept homosexuality to appease the West who continue to force their mental disorders and delusions down everyone’s throats under the guise of freedom.

As per them, a lunatic identifying himself as a garden chair is a sane human being and so are the they/them, non- binary crowd. Absolutely nonsense.

No wonder the western family system is broken with gay couples adopting children.

The solution to broken family systems of the west is a weird obsession with pets specially dogs who are disgusting animals and don’t belong in a household.

Fair enough, that is certainly one viewpoint. I am only concerned with those who think it is a choice, this viewpoint is held by many religious people for reasons that all stem from their faith, rather than scientific evidence.

 

[Abel Reames]

Sorry my question was mistyped. I meant was this the point you lost your faith?

That made me laugh. Thanks. No.

 

[Red-Indian]

Homosexuality was listed as a mental disorder until 1987. It was removed not because of advancement in “science” but because of social pressure. You can read about it if you want.

Homosexuals need help. They are going against the conventions of nature. Every species is heterosexual by default because survival is the basic instinct of every species.



But who told you that animals, or non-humans, cannot be mentally sick and who told you that mental sickness has a start date in human history?

Humans and animals have suffered from mental disorders since they came into existence.

“Animals are homosexual too therefore it is natural” is the dumbest line of argument possible. There are animals who also eat their offspring. I suppose that is “natural” too.

We will not accept homosexuality and we will stand by it. As simple as that. If you want to vouch for homosexuality please don’t expect your views to be welcome here and we will not mince our words.

My children will grow up learning the ills of homosexuality and how it has no acceptance and no tolerance in our culture, religion and society. If you have a problem with it that is your problem, but please learn to respect our views.

Indians can accept homosexuality to appease the West who continue to force their mental disorders and delusions down everyone’s throats under the guise of freedom.

As per them, a lunatic identifying himself as a garden chair is a sane human being and so are the they/them, non- binary crowd. Absolutely nonsense.

No wonder the western family system is broken with gay couples adopting children.

The solution to broken family systems of the west is a weird obsession with pets specially dogs who are disgusting animals and don’t belong in a household.

Sorry...maybe I wasn't clear. I wasn't asking for a rant illustrating your personal bigoted views. I was asking for scientific research papers explaining the causes and treatments of homosexuality as a mental disorder.

As far as scientific historical listing of it as a mental disorder is concerned, I'm not sure how you expect me to take that seriously. Even eugenics postulating blacks as an inferior species was treated as a science at some point.

Science moves forward. Apparently, you don't.

 

[Technics 1210]

Strong/Weak Nuclear force, Electric & Magnetic polarity, Male/Female sexes, day & night, dry & wet, the list is endless - opposites attract and evolve in the universe from the fundamental forces to life - for one reason only, that is to maintain the balance of the universe, because balance is precisely what keeps us all alive and the universe in existence.

Homosexuality causes imbalances, and you don't need scientific data, triple blind peer reviewed papers to realise that a human organ designed to excrete waste is being used for pleasure under the guise of liberalism, is as unnatural as it gets - you most certainly have to be mentally sick to do so.

Homosexuality also accelerates the spread of fatal diseases. HIV, AIDs etc, was and still is rampant among homosexuals, then of course spreading into heterosexuals. Main reasons for this are, well, read para above. Unnatural acts means biological vulnerabilities.

Homosexuality adds no value or benefit to society or nature. It never has and never will. No point in blaming nature (genetics), you may as well claim Murder/Rape/Gambling/Alcoholism are also genetic traits.

Oh bonus info, for you Christian Indians, who see this as an opportunity to diss Islam, it is the Bible that states Homosexuality is an abomination, and the not the Qur'an, and for the Hindutva Indians, it was Neo-Hinduism that tried to normalise homosexuality through religion, but failed for 5000 years.

 

[Red-Indian]

Strong/Weak Nuclear force, Electric & Magnetic polarity, Male/Female sexes, day & night, dry & wet, the list is endless - opposites attract and evolve in the universe from the fundamental forces to life - for one reason only, that is to maintain the balance of the universe, because balance is precisely what keeps us all alive and the universe in existence.

Homosexuality causes imbalances, and you don't need scientific data, triple blind peer reviewed papers to realise that a human organ designed to excrete waste is being used for pleasure under the guise of liberalism, is as unnatural as it gets - you most certainly have to be mentally sick to do so.

Homosexuality also accelerates the spread of fatal diseases. HIV, AIDs etc, was and still is rampant among homosexuals, then of course spreading into heterosexuals. Main reasons for this are, well, read para above. Unnatural acts means biological vulnerabilities.

Homosexuality adds no value or benefit to society or nature. It never has and never will. No point in blaming nature (genetics), you may as well claim Murder/Rape/Gambling/Alcoholism are also genetic traits.

Oh bonus info, for you Christian Indians, who see this as an opportunity to diss Islam, it is the Bible that states Homosexuality is an abomination, and the not the Qur'an, and for the Hindutva Indians, it was Neo-Hinduism that tried to normalise homosexuality through religion, but failed for 5000 years.

There's so much wrong with this post that I'm not sure where to start.

From all those pseudo-philosophical Jedi ramblings about the balance of the universe, I gather your main objection is that homosexuality is unnatural and therefore should be prohibited.

I hope you know that splitting the atom, driving cars, flying planes and a bunch of other stuff are also unnatural in the sense that nature hasn't equipped humanity for them. Why not prohibit those as well and throw in dance, music and theatre while we're at it?

As far as benefit and value from activities is concerned - if procreation is the only purpose of sex, why not just ban it altogether and move to more efficient methods of reproduction like IUI and IVF?

Finally I'm well aware both Christianity and Islam consider homosexuality taboo. I think you unfortunately are not aware Hinduism prohibits it as well. All religions are equal opportunity idiotic about this. Understandable for their times I guess but not for their current followers who you would hope could be more commonsensical about it.

 

[BouncerGuy]

There is no way going against nature can work. Some might say it does but really it does not.

 

[Red-Indian]

There is no way going against nature can work. Some might say it does but really it does not.

I hope you aren't getting taken in by ads and brushing your teeth with toothpaste then. They might say it works to go against nature but it really does not. Let them rot as nature intended or maybe you can use a twig if you really want to defy nature.

 

[BouncerGuy]

I hope you aren't getting taken in by ads and brushing your teeth with toothpaste then. They might say it works to go against nature but it really does not. Let them rot as nature intended or maybe you can use a twig if you really want to defy nature.

LOL... you okay??

 

[Red-Indian]

LOL... you okay??

Sure...yes. Thanks for checking.

Was just worried about you choosing to go against nature in opposition to your beliefs. I also hope you don't use planes to fly. If nature/god intended man to fly, it would've given us wings. It never works to go against nature.

 

[BouncerGuy]

Sure...yes. Thanks for checking.

Was just worried about you choosing to go against nature in opposition to your beliefs. I also hope you don't use planes to fly. If nature/god intended man to fly, it would've given us wings. It never works to go against nature.

you are using example of innovation by science to make out lives easy against GAY talk???

 

[Red-Indian]

you are using example of innovation by science to make out lives easy against GAY talk???

It's innovation going against nature. That's why I was concerned.

Also I'm not sure what GAY talk is. Does it involve a lisp? Can you explain from your experience?

 

[BouncerGuy]

It's innovation going against nature. That's why I was concerned.

Also I'm not sure what GAY talk is. Does it involve a lisp? Can you explain from your experience?

I am not from this community nor do I support such views... Maybe you can explain how an airplane is going against nature and how it is same as being gay??

 

[Red-Indian]

I am not from this community nor do I support such views... Maybe you can explain how an airplane is going against nature and how it is same as being gay??

Well nature didn't intend for man to fly and didn't give us wings. We felt a yearning and attraction for the sky and found a way to fly anyway.

Maybe nature also didn't have a need for same-sex relationships (it only cares for perpetuation of the species) but humans felt an attraction for the same sex and found ways to mate.

I don't get what's so great about nature and it's rules. Humanity has been going against it since the day we climbed down from the trees.

- Nature made it difficult for men with low sperm count to have kids. We went against nature and made it common.
- Nature also created polio to cripple humans. We made it nearly impossible for kids to contract it

Our whole history has been about going against nature so forgive if I don't buy your argument that 'going against nature never works'.

 

[BouncerGuy]

Well nature didn't intend for man to fly and didn't give us wings. We felt a yearning and attraction for the sky and found a way to fly anyway.

Maybe nature also didn't have a need for same-sex relationships (it only cares for perpetuation of the species) but humans felt an attraction for the same sex and found ways to mate.

I don't get what's so great about nature and it's rules. Humanity has been going against it since the day we climbed down from the trees.

- Nature made it difficult for men with low sperm count to have kids. We went against nature and made it common.
- Nature also created polio to cripple humans. We made it nearly impossible for kids to contract it

Our whole history has been about going against nature so forgive if I don't buy your argument that 'going against nature never works'.

While it's true that humans have overcome various natural obstacles, the comparison between medical advancements and moral choices is flawed. Going against nature in the context of same-sex relationships implies altering an inherent aspect of human behavior, which is fundamentally different from curing diseases or developing technology to overcome physical limitations.

Hope you understand. I am not here to guide you towards natural phenomena. It is just a small talk.

 

[Red-Indian]

While it's true that humans have overcome various natural obstacles, the comparison between medical advancements and moral choices is flawed. Going against nature in the context of same-sex relationships implies altering an inherent aspect of human behavior, which is fundamentally different from curing diseases or developing technology to overcome physical limitations.

Hope you understand. I am not here to guide you towards natural phenomena. It is just a small talk.

Look dude... perhaps I was a little harsh on you. I understand you're only following what your religion and 'culture' have taught you and are not really interested in logic. I also understand that some anonymous guy on the internet isn't going to change your mind.

What I hope you'll accept though is despite what your friends may have told you at school, you can't catch homosexuality from someone else. What homosexuals do in the privacy of their own homes should be none of anyone's business. I hope you'll agree that at a minimum, homosexuality should not be a criminal offense in any country.

 

[Technics 1210]

There's so much wrong with this post that I'm not sure where to start.

I really don't care what you think or believe.

Homosexuality is wrong. Homosexuality is unnatural. Homosexuality is detrimental to society (and humanity) - and there's a littany of examples throughout human history to prove it.

There's a reason why more and more people are standing up to the Rainbow Agenda - more and more people from all walks of life, all races, colours, and creed. From black to white, from theists to atheists, from young to old, from around the world - it's simply because you don't need a God to guide anyone on the fact homosexuality is wrong, when one look and half a brain cell is enough.

 

[Hitman]

Their country, they can do what they desire. Who are we outsiders to speak?

Afterall, their decisions over the years has resulted in such fantastic fruits for them.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

My apologies for triggering you but I suspect I know more about modern day Pakistan than you do. Your information is dated, while I have live sources there now that I trust. Cheers

Not sure your friends who you played cricket with in Dubai can be used as a yardstick for the whole country. Otherwise don't you think Pakistan would look a lot different?

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

There are nightclubs in India for sure. You probably are not allowed to go in the vicinity in Uk but quite a few there as well. Now gay night club in India I can’t help you there as I am not sure they exist but I would assume you would have to network your way through once you enter the night club. Hope that info helps you when/if Indian visa is approved.

Did you have a point here? Or was it just an exercise in imaginary scenarios playing out in your head?

 

[Mamoon]

Strong/Weak Nuclear force, Electric & Magnetic polarity, Male/Female sexes, day & night, dry & wet, the list is endless - opposites attract and evolve in the universe from the fundamental forces to life - for one reason only, that is to maintain the balance of the universe, because balance is precisely what keeps us all alive and the universe in existence.

Homosexuality causes imbalances, and you don't need scientific data, triple blind peer reviewed papers to realise that a human organ designed to excrete waste is being used for pleasure under the guise of liberalism, is as unnatural as it gets - you most certainly have to be mentally sick to do so.

Homosexuality also accelerates the spread of fatal diseases. HIV, AIDs etc, was and still is rampant among homosexuals, then of course spreading into heterosexuals. Main reasons for this are, well, read para above. Unnatural acts means biological vulnerabilities.

Homosexuality adds no value or benefit to society or nature. It never has and never will. No point in blaming nature (genetics), you may as well claim Murder/Rape/Gambling/Alcoholism are also genetic traits.

Oh bonus info, for you Christian Indians, who see this as an opportunity to diss Islam, it is the Bible that states Homosexuality is an abomination, and the not the Qur'an, and for the Hindutva Indians, it was Neo-Hinduism that tried to normalise homosexuality through religion, but failed for 5000 years.

Facts that they will not like. The human body is not designed for homosexuality from a biological viewpoint, therefore, it is clearly unnatural.

Then again, these deluded woke fools also believe that there are more than two genders, so they don’t really care about biology.

 

[Mamoon]

Their country, they can do what they desire. Who are we outsiders to speak?

Afterall, their decisions over the years has resulted in such fantastic fruits for them.

Good point. After all, attitude towards homosexuality determines the success and failure of a nation.

 

[Mamoon]

The delusion woke fools who are championing for homosexuality in this thread are the same folks who will be deeply disappointed and uncomfortable if their offspring turn out to be homosexual.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

The delusion woke fools who are championing for homosexuality in this thread are the same folks who will be deeply disappointed and uncomfortable if their offspring turn out to be homosexual.

None of them will ever admit it on here, but really if they believe their own words then they should have no problem with it.

 

[AamchiMumbaikar]

The delusion woke fools who are championing for homosexuality in this thread are the same folks who will be deeply disappointed and uncomfortable if their offspring turn out to be homosexual.

Lol so true. Its all OK as long as it happens outside their circle.

 

[Stewie]

None of them will ever admit it on here, but really if they believe their own words then they should have no problem with it.

I don't think those who have used scientific and medical community's findings to make a point that sexual orientation is affected by a combination of environmental factors, genetics, hormones factors, and is not a matter of choice per se - are not saying we will absolutely not have a problem with homosexuality or that we encourage it.

At least I do not. I do not approve of it but its also foolish to suggest that its a choice. You cannot deny the wide and varied and detailed research and findings on this topic.

 

[Red-Indian]

None of them will ever admit it on here, but really if they believe their own words then they should have no problem with it.

I don't even get the point you're making. I'd be very unhappy if my child suddenly discovered religion and took up Islam or Hinduism. I think it's the wrong path and will lead her to unhappiness. I would still support her though.

Similarly if she discovered she was lesbian, I'd want to be sure it's not a fad and she knew the difficulty and pain she was letting herself in for but I'm obviously not going to admit her into a mental hospital like @Mamoon is suggesting or disown her.

It's not the life I'd want for her because I'm well aware people like the posters on this thread would consider her a freak and discriminate against her, try to criminalise her life but I'm well aware I can't control her life.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

I don't even get the point you're making. I'd be very unhappy if my child suddenly discovered religion and took up Islam or Hinduism. I think it's the wrong path and will lead her to unhappiness. I would still support her though.

Similarly if she discovered she was lesbian, I'd want to be sure it's not a fad and she knew the difficulty and pain she was letting herself in for but I'm obviously not going to admit her into a mental hospital like @Mamoon is suggesting or disown her.

It's not the life I'd want for her because I'm well aware people like the posters on this thread would consider her a freak and discriminate against her, try to criminalise her life but I'm well aware I can't control her life.

Would you be happy about it or disappointed?

 

[Red-Indian]

Would you be happy about it or disappointed?

I just said it's not the life I want for her so I would obviously be disappointed. I have no moral objections to it if that's what you're asking - more concern that she's in for a tough, discriminated against life.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

I just said it's not the life I want for her so I would obviously be disappointed. I have no moral objections to it if that's what you're asking - more concern that she's in for a tough, discriminated against life.

If it was my daughter I'd be more hopeful that she would get married one day and have sons or daughters of her own which is what she was designed for. Morality aside, it's just what most people want once they can set aside the woke nonsense they are fed in today's society.

 

[Stewie]

If it was my daughter I'd be more hopeful that she would get married one day and have sons or daughters of her own which is what she was designed for. Morality aside, it's just what most people want once they can set aside the woke nonsense they are fed in today's society.

I know your post did not address me, but I wanted to say I fully agree with you. I would not want to have any of my children turn out this way, even though by some of the standards you may consider me "woke".

We are kind of conflating two things over the last few posts. 1) the acceptance vs tolerance of homosexuality and 2) homosexuality as a choice or not

its important to keep these two things separate.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

I know your post did not address me, but I wanted to say I fully agree with you. I would not want to have any of my children turn out this way, even though by some of the standards you may consider me "woke".

We are kind of conflating two things over the last few posts. 1) the acceptance vs tolerance of homosexuality and 2) homosexuality as a choice or not

its important to keep these two things separate.

Agreed. Homosexuality whether it is a lifestyle choice or not is out there whether we like it or not. But at least we should be able to present an honest opinion about it, then we can take it from there.

 

[Stewie]

Agreed. Homosexuality whether it is a lifestyle choice or not is out there whether we like it or not. But at least we should be able to present an honest opinion about it, then we can take it from there.

In light of the scientific studies out there, my honest view is that it’s not a choice. But once again the science arrives at new conclusions based on fresh evidence and research every day. As things stand now, the evidence is scarce that’s it’s a matter of choice in most cases.

 

[Red-Indian]

If it was my daughter I'd be more hopeful that she would get married one day and have sons or daughters of her own which is what she was designed for. Morality aside, it's just what most people want once they can set aside the woke nonsense they are fed in today's society.

Ah...I just assumed that wouldn't be an issue. I don't know any lesbians in India but we were friends with a lesbian couple when we lived in the States and they were lovingly bringing up a son. From my interactions with them, it's the very rare lesbian couple that chooses not to have children. Gays may be different...I wouldn't know.

Still a bit young to be thinking about it but I guess I do want grandkids. I hope my daughter - lesbian or not would choose to have them but I'm well aware plenty in my circle are opting against kids or waiting till very late in life to have them.

 

[Bhaijaan]

People are making a big deal of it. Just a bunch of guys who wanna wear lipstick and skirt and wanna dance to Bollywood numbers. It can’t harm anyone.

 

[Mamoon]

Homosexuals couples should be banned from adopting children. There is no need for destroying a child’s life by exposing him to an unnatural family system where he has to end up with two Dads or two Mums. Imagine the bullying they will be subjected to.

Homosexuals are mad people. They have a mental sickness. Therefore, they should not be allowed to infect other people with this sickness. Adopting a child as a homosexual couple is extremely selfish.

No child deserves to be raised by a homosexual couple.

 

[Red-Indian]

Homosexuals couples should be banned from adopting children. There is no need for destroying a child’s life by exposing him to an unnatural family system where he has to end up with two Dads or two Mums. Imagine the bullying they will be subjected to.

Homosexuals are mad people. They have a mental sickness. Therefore, they should not be allowed to infect other people with this sickness. Adopting a child as a homosexual couple is extremely selfish.

No child deserves to be raised by a homosexual couple.

You're a strange guy but if this rant was provoked by my referring to the lesbian couple who were our friends, their son was a biological child - not an adopted one.

 

[Mamoon]

You're a strange guy but if this rant was provoked by my referring to the lesbian couple who were our friends, their son was a biological child - not an adopted one.

I didn’t read what you said. I’m not interested in your views unless you are quoting me.

A lesbian couple having a biological child, which means one of them was normal (AKA heterosexual) before things went south. Sounds interesting though.

 

[DeadlyVenom]

Homosexuals couples should be banned from adopting children. There is no need for destroying a child’s life by exposing him to an unnatural family system where he has to end up with two Dads or two Mums. Imagine the bullying they will be subjected to.

Homosexuals are mad people. They have a mental sickness. Therefore, they should not be allowed to infect other people with this sickness. Adopting a child as a homosexual couple is extremely selfish.

No child deserves to be raised by a homosexual couple.

I had a similar discussion with someone in person and it softened my view on it a bit.

What would your response be to someone ( who has lived in care homes) and would argue that leaving a child in a care home is more detrimental to the child than a loving home with two homosexuals?

In an ideal world they would be able to experience hetrosexual parenting, but in this non ideal world it is tough to deny someone a loving home because of the couples sexuality ( care homes in the UK are grim, open to all sorts of abuse).

It becomes a more difficult argument in that case.

 

[Mamoon]

I had a similar discussion with someone in person and it softened my view on it a bit.

What would your response be to someone ( who has lived in care homes) and would argue that leaving a child in a care home is more detrimental to the child than a loving home with two homosexuals?

In an ideal world they would be able to experience hetrosexual parenting, but in this non ideal world it is tough to deny someone a loving home because of the couples sexuality ( care homes in the UK are grim, open to all sorts of abuse).

It becomes a more difficult argument in that case.

If it comes down to a situation where a child has absolutely no chance of getting adopted by a childless normal (heterosexual) couple, then yes it is better to be adopted by two deranged but potentially loving and caring homosexual people than to be living in an orphanage.

However, in the real practical world, heterosexual couples would always outnumber homosexual couple by a huge margin because most people are normal, so there will never be a situation where an orphan wouldn’t have the opportunity to be adopted by a heterosexual couple, so you are essentially depriving the child of the opportunity of living in a normal household because you are wired the wrong way.

No child deserves homosexual parents and no child would ever prefer homosexual parents over heterosexual ones.

A mother cannot compensate for the lack of father figure and a father cannot compensate for the lack of a mother figure. Identifying as someone or something than you are not doesn’t change who you truly are.

Therefore, there needs to be strong regulations on homosexuals adopting children and infecting and polluting their innocent minds with their nonsense.

If you are homosexual, you are already rejecting what you were biologically designed for. So here’s an idea - don’t have kids or don’t be homosexual.

This reminds me of vegans showing disgust towards meat but trying their hardest to make their vegan food look and taste like meat.

 

[Red-Indian]

I didn’t read what you said. I’m not interested in your views unless you are quoting me.

A lesbian couple having a biological child, which means one of them was normal (AKA heterosexual) before things went south. Sounds interesting though.

Oh no...they used IVF and a sperm donor. We weren't close enough to either of them to know if they'd had previous heterosexual relationships but given what I know of them, seems unlikely.

A lot of gays are also going in for biological children in the West from what I read - through surrogacy.

 

[Red-Indian]

I had a similar discussion with someone in person and it softened my view on it a bit.

What would your response be to someone ( who has lived in care homes) and would argue that leaving a child in a care home is more detrimental to the child than a loving home with two homosexuals?

In an ideal world they would be able to experience hetrosexual parenting, but in this non ideal world it is tough to deny someone a loving home because of the couples sexuality ( care homes in the UK are grim, open to all sorts of abuse).

It becomes a more difficult argument in that case.

It's a lot more complicated than just that simple argument. How would you rank the following scenarios?

- Brought up by a happy, loving heterosexual couple
- Brought up by an unhappy heterosexual couple (say alcoholic/drug addict/criminal father - only because that's more typical)
- Brought up by a single parent (usually female but sometimes male)
- Brought up by a single parent in a poverty stricken third world country (most children adopted by gays seem to come from these circumstances)
- Brought up in a care home
- Brought by a loving homosexual couple

 

[DeadlyVenom]

It's a lot more complicated than just that simple argument. How would you rank the following scenarios?

- Brought up by a happy, loving heterosexual couple
- Brought up by an unhappy heterosexual couple (say alcoholic/drug addict/criminal father - only because that's more typical)
- Brought up by a single parent (usually female but sometimes male)
- Brought up by a single parent in a poverty stricken third world country (most children adopted by gays seem to come from these circumstances)
- Brought up in a care home
- Brought by a loving homosexual couple

Number 1 is way ahead of the others.

I think society should do more to promote number 1 and perhaps there will be less occurrences of the rest and less for gays to step in and help.

Simplistic yes but the preference and the priority should always be for a stable heterosexual relationship when it comes to children.

However in a non ideal world I think it's ok to allow for some form of adoption if required but at the same time.

 

[Red-Indian]

Number 1 is way ahead of the others.

I think society should do more to promote number 1 and perhaps there will be less occurrences of the rest and less for gays to step in and help.

Simplistic yes but the preference and the priority should always be for a stable heterosexual relationship when it comes to children.

However in a non ideal world I think it's ok to allow for some form of adoption if required but at the same time.

Agreed. I think too many people in the world spend time thinking only about the ideal situation and oppose any situation/solution that's not perfect. I don't think there's any disagreement on the fact that a traditional household is still the best environment for children to grow up in...even the most 'woke' hated on this forum will readily agree with that.

The reality of the situation though is that there seems to be a inverse relationship between Per Capita Income and Fertility rate. Basically the richer the country, the fewer the kids. In such an environment, it seems absurd that we would go even further to discourage adoption and biological kids by homosexual couples.

There are now several research papers that seem to find that children brought up by homosexual couples seem as well-adjusted and have as successful outcomes as children brought up in similar heterosexual couple relationships

Netherlands
United States
Another study in the United States

I'm not saying homosexual relationships are perfect. Again, studies have show they seem to be less stable than heterosexual relationships and slightly more prone to domestic abuse (in the case of gays). We do have to be careful but it seems absurd that we wouldn't keep an open mind.

 

[Stewie]

Oh no...they used IVF and a sperm donor. We weren't close enough to either of them to know if they'd had previous heterosexual relationships but given what I know of them, seems unlikely.

A lot of gays are also going in for biological children in the West from what I read - through surrogacy.

So this scenario got me looking into kids raised by homosexuals and I came across this "disturbing" finding. How do you reconcile this with scientific studies that sexual orientation is not a choice?

Adult children of lesbian parents less likely to identify as straight, study finds

They're "significantly more likely to report same-sex attraction, sexual minority identity, and same-sex experience" than the general population.

www.nbcnews.com

The children of lesbian parents are less likely to identify as heterosexual as adults and much more likely to report same-sex attraction, according to a long-term study by the Williams Institute at the UCLA School of Law, a think tank focused on sexual orientation and gender.

As many as 6 million children and adults in the U.S. have lesbian, gay, bisexual or transgender parents, according to the institute, and its study found that “the female and male offspring of lesbian parents were significantly more likely to report same-sex attraction, sexual minority identity, and same-sex experience.”

“Perhaps we should be celebrating that the culture has evolved enough that these young people feel free to explore who they are."
Dr. Nanette Gartrell, M.D.
“These findings suggest that adult offspring from planned lesbian families may be more likely than their peers to demonstrate diversity in sexual attraction, identity, and expression," the report said.

 

[Red-Indian]

So this scenario got me looking into kids raised by homosexuals and I came across this "disturbing" finding. How do you reconcile this with scientific studies that sexual orientation is not a choice?

I don't know to be honest. And I'm not sure it's 'disturbing'. It's not like the research is pointing out they're psychopaths or have criminal tendencies. But I can lay out a hypothesis

I think someone here, maybe @Abel Reames pointed out that the increasing consensus is that most human sexuality is along a spectrum. There are some proportion of people who are either completely heterosexual or completely homosexual but there's a significant proportion along the spectrum that have sexual identifications that are more fluid. Their final orientation would I assume would be more influenced by the environment and upbringing. The logical conclusion of this hypothesis is that such children who grow up in a homosexual parent household are consciously or unconsciously influenced to lean towards their homosexual tendencies. Is that good or bad? Depends on your viewpoint, I suppose.

 

[Stewie]

I don't know to be honest. And I'm not sure it's 'disturbing'. It's not like the research is pointing out they're psychopaths or have criminal tendencies. But I can lay out a hypothesis

I think someone here, maybe @Abel Reames pointed out that the increasing consensus is that most human sexuality is along a spectrum. There are some proportion of people who are either completely heterosexual or completely homosexual but there's a significant proportion along the spectrum that have sexual identifications that are more fluid. Their final orientation would I assume would be more influenced by the environment and upbringing. The logical conclusion of this hypothesis is that such children who grow up in a homosexual parent household are consciously or unconsciously influenced to lean towards their homosexual tendencies. Is that good or bad? Depends on your viewpoint, I suppose.

It is disturbing not because I am claiming the homosexual parents are psychopaths.

Its disturbing because this data leads me to believe the science is incorrect in concluding that sexual orientation is NOT a choice and is assigned at birth. If you look at most researched, they point you in that direction. So what do you really believe in this case? It sounds to me like us "Defenders" of this notion are being sold down the river.

Why it is more disturbing: Yes, to be more politically correct and "civilized" I am supposed to be more tolerant if not accepting of homosexuality but if it ends up being a case of something on the spectrum one can manage to push this way or that way, why would I be ok with people getting pushed towards homosexuality when we know it creates a great risk of STDs, HIV, AIDS spread in the society?

 

[RexRex]

There was a site which answered that quite comprehensively - as there always seems to be - I can find it but don't want to derail the topic, because that will definitely happen. Just do a google search and if you have no luck just bump the thread where it was first brought up and I'll put the link in there.

Yes, you can post it in reply to my original post. It was in the Dawah thread started by @LordJames, who I've noticed hasn't been here in a while. Seems like he's realised he's no longer able to defend sharia and jumped ship.

 

[RexRex]

Not sure your friends who you played cricket with in Dubai can be used as a yardstick for the whole country. Otherwise don't you think Pakistan would look a lot different?

All I said was Pakistan doesn't have a nightlife with regards to bars, nighclubs, discotheques in public .. kinda true innit.

 

[RexRex]

The delusion woke fools who are championing for homosexuality in this thread are the same folks who will be deeply disappointed and uncomfortable if their offspring turn out to be homosexual.

Learn what the word 'woke' means, Discussing the potential genetic origins of homosexuality doesn't make someone woke lol. Also I don't see a single poster on here championing homosexuality.

 

[YousafTheBeast]

All I said was Pakistan doesn't have a nightlife with regards to bars, nighclubs, discotheques in public .. kinda true innit.

Which is a good thing…

 

[RexRex]

Which is a good thing…

What if you want to let your hair down after a tough work week and dance your heart out on a Saturday night, where do you go ..

 

[YousafTheBeast]

What if you want to let your hair down after a tough work week and dance your heart out on a Saturday night, where do you go ..

Join a dance class or something lol.

Discos aren’t the only place where people can dance.

 

[RexRex]

Homosexuals are mad people. They have a mental sickness. Therefore, they should not be allowed to infect other people with this sickness.

First u say homosexuality is not a choice but a mental disorder but in the next post, u say it will infect everyone like its some transmittable disease (hence a choice) .. make up ur mind, you are confused.

 

[RexRex]

Discos aren’t the only place where people can dance.

Where else ?

 

[YousafTheBeast]

Where else ?

Take up ballet.

 

[RexRex]

Take up ballet.

Zakir Naik says singing and dancing is prohibited in Islam. Will you defy him and encourage your daughters to take ballet classes ?

 

[Stewie]

All I said was Pakistan doesn't have a nightlife with regards to bars, nighclubs, discotheques in public .. kinda true innit.

IIRC you said Pakistan does not have "any" entertainment.

And if you seem to think that entertainment is only limited to such places, I feel sorry for you.

 

[Stewie]

Yes, you can post it in reply to my original post. It was in the Dawah thread started by @LordJames, who I've noticed hasn't been here in a while. Seems like he's realised he's no longer able to defend sharia and jumped ship.

or maybe he figured its not worth his time arguing with trolls and such who wont be convinced no matter how convincing an argument. Its true. Have you ever been able to convince someone of the truth online when they so rigidly believe in a lie?

In fact, don't answer that.. I think I already know it.

 

[Red-Indian]

It is disturbing not because I am claiming the homosexual parents are psychopaths.

Its disturbing because this data leads me to believe the science is incorrect in concluding that sexual orientation is NOT a choice and is assigned at birth. If you look at most researched, they point you in that direction. So what do you really believe in this case? It sounds to me like us "Defenders" of this notion are being sold down the river.

Why it is more disturbing: Yes, to be more politically correct and "civilized" I am supposed to be more tolerant if not accepting of homosexuality but if it ends up being a case of something on the spectrum one can manage to push this way or that way, why would I be ok with people getting pushed towards homosexuality when we know it creates a great risk of STDs, HIV, AIDS spread in the society?

If you're asking me what I believe, I think that ~80% of people are strongly heterosexual - as driven by nature's need to perpetuate the species. The remaining 20% - either due to a gene mutation or some still poorly understood physiological or maybe psychological reason are either strongly attracted to the same sex or are more fluid in their attraction to either sex.

Why do I believe this?
- Homosexuality seems to exist outside the human species especially in animals who have evolved similarly like apes
- Homosexuality has always existed in human society despite strict prohibitions. There are records of homosexual relationships going back thousands of years
- The figure of ~80% is backed up by several studies including the one you quoted

So I do think there is both a nature and nurture element to homosexual tendencies.

Now on the question of being pushed towards homosexuality, I suppose no-one, including you is worried about the 80%. After all, even in families with both homosexual parents...so about as influential an environment as you can imagine, 80% of the kids turn out hetero. You're worried that the remaining 20% could turn out hetero in the right environment i.e. a loving hetero family. I ask you - what's the alternative though? You can prohibit them from adopting kids but can you guarantee those kids an equally good home environment? Are you going to criminalise them having biological kids? Take the kids away from their mothers - there's 6 million kids in the States that have lesbian, gay, bisexual or transgender parents?