A man tried to set up Pakistan's first gay club, he was put in a mental hospital

[Stewie]

What if you want to let your hair down after a tough work week and dance your heart out on a Saturday night, where do you go ..

Why does it have to involve dance? I know dance is a staple of Hindu culture and its incorporated almost into everything but that's not the case everywhere.

When I was in college and even after that, my friends and used to let loose with a session of night tapeball cricket, going to a nice restaurant, maybe indulge in bit of sheesha, go to a pool bar, go to the movies, plenty of things like that to do.

Life does not end and begin with bar hopping or night club dancing for some people.

 

[Stewie]

Zakir Naik says singing and dancing is prohibited in Islam. Will you defy him and encourage your daughters to take ballet classes ?

Zakir Naik is not the be all of how I should live my life. No Muslim scholar is to be frank. We are given a recommended code to live by, but not following it wont make me a non-Muslim. I listen to music although a lot of experts say its Haram. I don't believe it.

 

[YousafTheBeast]

Zakir Naik says singing and dancing is prohibited in Islam. Will you defy him and encourage your daughters to take ballet classes ?

I mean I wouldn’t but I don’t have a problem if other Pakistani’s are doing it.

 

[Stewie]

If you're asking me what I believe, I think that ~80% of people are strongly heterosexual - as driven by nature's need to perpetuate the species. The remaining 20% - either due to a gene mutation or some still poorly understood physiological or maybe psychological reason are either strongly attracted to the same sex or are more fluid in their attraction to either sex.

Why do I believe this?
- Homosexuality seems to exist outside the human species especially in animals who have evolved similarly like apes
- Homosexuality has always existed in human society despite strict prohibitions. There are records of homosexual relationships going back thousands of years
- The figure of ~80% is backed up by several studies including the one you quoted

So I do think there is both a nature and nurture element to homosexual tendencies.

Now on the question of being pushed towards homosexuality, I suppose no-one, including you is worried about the 80%. After all, even in families with both homosexual parents...so about as influential an environment as you can imagine, 80% of the kids turn out hetero. You're worried that the remaining 20% could turn out hetero in the right environment i.e. a loving hetero family. I ask you - what's the alternative though? You can prohibit them from adopting kids but can you guarantee those kids an equally good home environment? Are you going to criminalise them having biological kids? Take the kids away from their mothers - there's 6 million kids in the States that have lesbian, gay, bisexual or transgender parents?

I get it, but my concern is more about WHOMEVER pushing the LGBTQ agenda and claiming that lifestyle is absolutely normal and in fact should be celebrated -- when all I am reading now is evidence leading me to believe that it is not entirely natural and may have some psychological factor to it including bias of being raised by homosexuals.

If the science is not rock solid on this: should this be pressed on us with so much authority and certainty?

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Ah...I just assumed that wouldn't be an issue. I don't know any lesbians in India but we were friends with a lesbian couple when we lived in the States and they were lovingly bringing up a son. From my interactions with them, it's the very rare lesbian couple that chooses not to have children. Gays may be different...I wouldn't know.

Still a bit young to be thinking about it but I guess I do want grandkids. I hope my daughter - lesbian or not would choose to have them but I'm well aware plenty in my circle are opting against kids or waiting till very late in life to have them.

The fact that these lesbian couples want to have children just shows how confused they are by the slow creep delusion which sets in with "anything goes" society. For them having a child is no different to buying a pet. Instead of walking the dog and playing fetch, they get to dress them up like dollies and play mommies at the school run.

 

[Red-Indian]

I get it, but my concern is more about WHOMEVER pushing the LGBTQ agenda and claiming that lifestyle is absolutely normal and in fact should be celebrated -- when all I am reading now is evidence leading me to believe that it is not entirely natural and may have some psychological factor to it including bias of being raised by homosexuals.

If the science is not rock solid on this: should this be pressed on us with so much authority and certainty?

That I confess I do not have an answer to because I do not share your experiences.

I have never felt this pressure to accept and celebrate the LGBTQ agenda. Maybe because I have sympathies with that line of thought and the level of pressure feels very low. They're in their own channel and all they're asking for is equal rights and a voice. I understand that to you, it may feel like too much too soon - especially when maybe 30 years ago, speaking about this stuff was taboo.

On the contrary though, I feel there's too much pressure in society to accept and celebrate the religious agenda even for kids when there's no evidence it has any benefit - family elders, teachers, books, television programs etc. I don't expect you feel that. It's the water you swim in and it seems natural to you. I personally feel very resentful that so many people are trying to influence my kid who I'm trying to protect from religion.

 

[YousafTheBeast]

They're in their own channel and all they're asking for is equal rights

What rights don’t they have?

 

[Red-Indian]

The fact that these lesbian couples want to have children just shows how confused they are by the slow creep delusion which sets in with "anything goes" society. For them having a child is no different to buying a pet. Instead of walking the dog and playing fetch, they get to dress them up like dollies and play mommies at the school run.

Any evidence for this weird fantasy of yours? I confess I know of only this single lesbian couple and they were doing nothing of the sort you've described. Their son was only 4 years old at the time we left the States and we've lost touch since but they had the same joys, hassles and pains of being parents as any heterosexual parent couple I've known over the years. We baby sat for them a couple of times when they had a sudden need and the kid was a sweet, polite if slightly hyperactive typical boy.

There are 6 million folks who have lesbian, gay, bisexual or transgender parents in the States. Are you saying they're all 'pet replacements?'

 

[Mamoon]

First u say homosexuality is not a choice but a mental disorder but in the next post, u say it will infect everyone like its some transmittable disease (hence a choice) .. make up ur mind, you are confused.

A child of a sound mind won’t become homosexual because he has been raised by a homosexual, but he/she might consider it as normal behavior and grow up as an apologist.

This sickness has to be eradicated from this world and it will only happen when these mad people are treated and not allowed the opportunity to raise children who are brainwashed into thinking that homosexuality is a completely normal and socially acceptable behavior.

 

[Mamoon]

Learn what the word 'woke' means, u goose. Discussing the potential genetic origins of homosexuality doesn't make someone woke lol. Also I don't see a single poster on here championing homosexuality. If mere discussions trigger you to make such a claim, then I'm afraid you should be known henceforth as the intolerant Maulana Mamoon.

I know what woke means. I have a vastly superior command over the English language than you do. Your embarrassing apologist attitude towards this sick behavior is a classic example of wokeism.

Intolerance is a slippery slope. If you are not intolerance to BS you don’t stand for anything. Also, it is funny how intolerance woke people like yourself are towards those who are not willing to accept homosexuality.

Why is it so difficult for you to understand that we will not accept homosexuality and allow it to be normalized in our society? There is simply no room for it in our religion and culture. It is a not a grey area. It is black and white.

No amount of evangelism by Indians pandering to the West will change our stance on this. If you support homosexuality, please reconsider your own orientation or hope that your children grow up to be homosexual. I’m sure you would really like that.

If your preference is to have heterosexual offspring, you are defeating your own argument and your apologist stance has zero credibility.

 

[Red-Indian]

What rights don’t they have?

Are you asking in the States or in India?

If in the States, I think they're very close to achieving their objectives which were - no discrimination and the right to marry. Which is why they've become pretty irrelevant as a political force now compared to the 80s when they had plenty to fight for. There are still some fringe 'first world' issues which I couldn't care less about - bathroom usage etc. that have become flashpoints.

If in India, they've made very little progress. They've only just managed decriminalisation but they still can't marry, live openly, fight back against discrimination - so a lot of rights left to fight for.

 

[YousafTheBeast]

Are you asking in the States or in India?

If in the States, I think they're very close to achieving their objectives which were - no discrimination and the right to marry. Which is why they've become pretty irrelevant as a political force now compared to the 80s when they had plenty to fight for. There are still some fringe 'first world' issues which I couldn't care less about - bathroom usage etc. that have become flashpoints.

If in India, they've made very little progress. They've only just managed decriminalisation but they still can't marry, live openly, fight back against discrimination - so a lot of rights left to fight for.

States.

There are still some fringe 'first world' issues which I couldn't care less about - bathroom usage etc. that have become flashpoints.

If i identified myself as a woman, would you be ok for me to use the same restroom as your daughter?

 

[Stewie]

That I confess I do not have an answer to because I do not share your experiences.

I have never felt this pressure to accept and celebrate the LGBTQ agenda. Maybe because I have sympathies with that line of thought and the level of pressure feels very low. They're in their own channel and all they're asking for is equal rights and a voice. I understand that to you, it may feel like too much too soon - especially when maybe 30 years ago, speaking about this stuff was taboo.

On the contrary though, I feel there's too much pressure in society to accept and celebrate the religious agenda even for kids when there's no evidence it has any benefit - family elders, teachers, books, television programs etc. I don't expect you feel that. It's the water you swim in and it seems natural to you. I personally feel very resentful that so many people are trying to influence my kid who I'm trying to protect from religion.

As a father of young children, living in the US and the blue state of Colorado, I see this everyday. There are pride months celebrated in the middle school, there is special sessions to discuss LGBtQ stuff, where kids can talk to a counselor to explore their sexual orientation.

Why?

 

[Red-Indian]

States.



If i identified myself as a woman, would you be ok for me to use the same restroom as your daughter?

There's lots of women who I wouldn't be comfortable using the same restroom as my daughter.

That said, no I'm not. While I would be okay with those truly identifying as women to use female bathrooms, I believe currently there's too many confused folks who could potentially misuse the trust.

On the whole though, as I said, it's a 'first world' issue. Not something I'm too bothered about. If transexuals identifying as women don't get access to female bathrooms, I don't think it's an egregious violation of their rights - they can manage using the closed stalls in mens bathrooms. If they do get access, I don't think it's an egregious violations of womens rights that's putting millions of women at risk - women's bathrooms have lockable stall anyway. Silly stuff that only the culture warriors on either side have time and passion to argue about.

While that's stupid debate is going on, homosexuals and transexuals in several countries are getting imprisoned and tortured while heterosexuals are free to do as they please. I'm happy to stand on their side in my limited way.

 

[Red-Indian]

As a father of young children, living in the US and the blue state of Colorado, I see this everyday. There are pride months celebrated in the middle school, there is special sessions to discuss LGBtQ stuff, where kids can talk to a counselor to explore their sexual orientation.

Why?

Again different perspectives.

My daughter's school starts every day with a different denominational prayer to god - Hindu, Muslim, Parsi, Sikh and Jain on each of the 5 days. Kids are encouraged to think about their god and be grateful to him or her. There are special celebrations for religious festivals.

Why?

Your example seems harmless to me - after all, all they're doing is celebrating and talking. Mine probably seems harmless to you - after all, all they're doing is listening to a prayer and celebrating.

In the end, I agree neither agenda should be pushed. Schools should stay out of culture and us parents need to fight back.

 

[YousafTheBeast]

If they do get access, I don't think it's an egregious violations of womens rights that's putting millions of women at risk - women's bathrooms have lockable stall anyway. Silly stuff that only the culture warriors on either side have time and passion to argue about.

Unless you’re a woman, you can’t really speak on their behalf when it comes to this stuff.

A lockable stall isn’t going to stop someone from raping you or taking pictures of you.

I’m sure if majority of the women were asked, they’d oppose the trannies being allowed into female restrooms.

 

[Stewie]

That I confess I do not have an answer to because I do not share your experiences.

I have never felt this pressure to accept and celebrate the LGBTQ agenda. Maybe because I have sympathies with that line of thought and the level of pressure feels very low. They're in their own channel and all they're asking for is equal rights and a voice. I understand that to you, it may feel like too much too soon - especially when maybe 30 years ago, speaking about this stuff was taboo.

On the contrary though, I feel there's too much pressure in society to accept and celebrate the religious agenda even for kids when there's no evidence it has any benefit - family elders, teachers, books, television programs etc. I don't expect you feel that. It's the water you swim in and it seems natural to you. I personally feel very resentful that so many people are trying to influence my kid who I'm trying to protect from religion.

There is no comparison. No religion is being taught to my kids in school here but the LGBTQ agenda is. Religion is a personal choice and I can choose to teach it to my children if I prefer or not. If you are drawing parallels of my personal teaching of religion to my children and the schools teaching LGBTQ or should I say forcing LGBTQ agenda on them, I think you are way way off. One is a personal choice, the other .. may not be so much personal anymore from what it seems.

 

[Red-Indian]

Unless you’re a woman, you can’t really speak on their behalf when it comes to this stuff.

A lockable stall isn’t going to stop someone from raping you or taking pictures of you.

I’m sure if majority of the women were asked, they’d oppose the trannies being allowed into female restrooms.

Fair point. I guess that's where this stuff will be decided - in the court of public opinion. After all, the States is a democracy, however flawed. If women feel threatened, they should make it clear. The female vote is very powerful and no politician will dare go up against it. They've won themselves a bunch of rights and if they're unwilling to let transexuals into their bathrooms, I'm sure they'll get their way. As I said, I'm not too bothered either way.

 

[Stewie]

Again different perspectives.

My daughter's school starts every day with a different denominational prayer to god - Hindu, Muslim, Parsi, Sikh and Jain on each of the 5 days. Kids are encouraged to think about their god and be grateful to him or her. There are special celebrations for religious festivals.

Why?

Your example seems harmless to me - after all, all they're doing is celebrating and talking. Mine probably seems harmless to you - after all, all they're doing is listening to a prayer and celebrating.

In the end, I agree neither agenda should be pushed. Schools should stay out of culture and us parents need to fight back.

So let me get this straight: you have a problem with religion, I understand that but the the most evil parts associated with religion, the ones which we have been in disagreement about on this board for a while, are absolutely 100% bound to be kept out of school I can almost guarantee you that. The school is probably teaching your child from a theological and academic standpoint. Information about Jesus, Muhammad, Hindu Dieties, Gurus, etc. with historical background. I am sure its not trying to convert any children. focusing on the aspects of religion such as don't lie, cheat, kill, committ evil deeds because God is watching (yes I know you have a problem with that but at least its going to make your child stay on the straight and narrow)

Now on the other hand, we know we are starting to find out that sexual orientation for some may or may not be as st in stone and it could be fluid. Encouraging them to keep "exploring" or giving them with too much information at such a young age can easily confuse or completely screw up a child's mental state. In our culture, children were not even encouraged to discuss straight sex till certain age like tht, you know it. I don't think I have to tell you that. Whether you approve of that policy or not, I think in the case of the LGBTQ stuff, it just seems too forced and for lack of any decent logical backing.

This is coming from someone who has historically supported the LGBTQ people here on this forum, by the way. But more I read the latest studies on this stuff, I am starting to change my views some.

 

[Red-Indian]

So let me get this straight: you have a problem with religion, I understand that but the the most evil parts associated with religion, the ones which we have been in disagreement about on this board for a while, are absolutely 100% bound to be kept out of school I can almost guarantee you that. The school is probably teaching your child from a theological and academic standpoint. Information about Jesus, Muhammad, Hindu Dieties, Gurus, etc. with historical background. I am sure its not trying to convert any children. focusing on the aspects of religion such as don't lie, cheat, kill, committ evil deeds because God is watching (yes I know you have a problem with that but at least its going to make your child stay on the straight and narrow)

Now on the other hand, we know we are starting to find out that sexual orientation for some may or may not be as st in stone and it could be fluid. Encouraging them to keep "exploring" or giving them with too much information at such a young age can easily confuse or completely screw up a child's mental state. In our culture, children were not even encouraged to discuss straight sex till certain age like tht, you know it. I don't think I have to tell you that. Whether you approve of that policy or not, I think in the case of the LGBTQ stuff, it just seems too forced and for lack of any decent logical backing.

This is coming from someone who has historically supported the LGBTQ people here on this forum, by the way. But more I read the latest studies on this stuff, I am starting to change my views some.

I think we've gotten as close as we're going to get on this subject given our different viewpoints so I'm going to stop arguing with you after this post and let you have the last word if you want it.

Just like you feel teaching kids about the 'good stuff' in religion does no serious harm (I mostly agree though it still annoys me), I feel teaching kids to be open and thoughtful about their sexual orientation does no serious harm. If anything, it helps deal with a lot of the guilt and shame young folks carry about sexuality. Yes we weren't taught about sexuality in the subcontinent when we were young. We learnt in other ways and I'm not sure whether it harmed or helped.

Just like you're guaranteeing me they're not trying to convert my daughter, I think I can guarantee they're not trying to turn kids gay. Schools and teachers have mostly good intentions and are trying to basically do the least harm possible.

In the end, I think I sympathise with your sense that things are moving too fast and it makes you uncomfortable. And perhaps I reluctantly agree that there are tiny pockets in the West where things may have gone too far the other way. But it's tough for me to sympathise with concerned heteros too much when for three quarters of the population of the world, it's still a daily struggle for homosexuals to live a normal life with basic rights.

 

[Stewie]

I think we've gotten as close as we're going to get on this subject given our different viewpoints so I'm going to stop arguing with you after this post and let you have the last word if you want it.

Just like you feel teaching kids about the 'good stuff' in religion does no serious harm (I mostly agree though it still annoys me), I feel teaching kids to be open and thoughtful about their sexual orientation does no serious harm. If anything, it helps deal with a lot of the guilt and shame young folks carry about sexuality. Yes we weren't taught about sexuality in the subcontinent when we were young. We learnt in other ways and I'm not sure whether it harmed or helped.

Just like you're guaranteeing me they're not trying to convert my daughter, I think I can guarantee they're not trying to turn kids gay. Schools and teachers have mostly good intentions and are trying to basically do the least harm possible.

In the end, I think I sympathise with your sense that things are moving too fast and it makes you uncomfortable. And perhaps I reluctantly agree that there are tiny pockets in the West where things may have gone too far the other way. But it's tough for me to sympathise with concerned heteros too much when for three quarters of the population of the world, it's still a daily struggle for homosexuals to live a normal life with basic rights.

Well, I guess that will remain a disagreement then and we don't have to drag it any further. I am simply concerned because I happen to be in that pocket of a true blue state where they do seem to have gone too far with the agenda.

 

[Abel Reames]

Sorry my question was mistyped. I meant was this the point you lost your faith?

Coming back to this I didnt lose faith because of this but I gained some empathy for homosexuals when I asked my lesbian friend what she liked about women - she said - same things you do. I guess I needed a level of unbiased critical thinking and a capacity for kindness.

 

[Abel Reames]

Finding it hard to quote/reply to the various points made above, so just gonna lay down some lines here.

I agree that the West is in decline but not because of the acceptance of LGBTQ, that is a symptom not a cause, this movement towards individualism is inevitable once a dominant culture has had its day in the sun which stemmed from policies for the greater good.

Even tho scientists cannot definitively pinpoint the evolutionary benefit of homosexuality and certainly at the individual level it has zero evolutionary benefit perhaps at the species level there is a benefit as proposed by many scientist.

As to whether it is natural or not I would say it was as it has been exhibited in nature, to those who say that their is cannibalism and infanticide in nature too, well that can be discounted on say the Harm Principal, consenting adults behind closed doors bring no harm to anyone else, unlike cannibalism or infanticide.

Something that is unnatural is circumcision. All mammals have a foreskin.

With humans sex is not just procreation, humans along with bonobos (pygmy chimpanzees) are designed to have sex for pleasure. It is not just about procreation thankfully for those who can't have kids.

There at least three genders surely, male and female and intersex, which would could be further categorised.

I forgotten some of the points made, I am sure I will be reminded.

Ah the break up of the nuclear family, well the vast majority of sexual and physical abuse of children happens within the archetypal family.

As to whether those that 'champion' equal rights having to face having a gay child it won't be as worse as a homophobe having a gay child.

 

[DeadlyVenom]

Coming back to this I didnt lose faith because of this but I gained some empathy for homosexuals when I asked my lesbian friend what she liked about women - she said - same things you do. I guess I needed a level of unbiased critical thinking and a capacity for kindness.

I was thinking about this yesterday.

I think actually there has been bit of flexibility on how British Muslims ( and western muslims) approach the issue over the years that has been quite subtle. Subtle enough to go unnoticed but still a shift in thinking.

I've seen it go from - homosexuals are dirty and filthy > being gay is not a choice ( but less emphasis on the dirt and flith) > homosexuality may not be a choice but homosexuals should abstain > its a sin but the shariah doesn't care what happens between 4 walls, just don't promote in public.

I think this transition in thinking has become quite mainstream.

Perhaps there will be another shift - gays who are born that way / gays who aren't, like people who are gay to exert dominance, or indulge in it for a fetish, or out of necessity. ( the people of Lot were probably bisexual even though they were punished for sodomy) and religious people will treat both groups in different ways.

Note that I'm not arguing for this change—I'm just saying it could go that way if the current trajectory continues.

 

[Abel Reames]

I was thinking about this yesterday.

I think actually there has been bit of flexibility on how British Muslims ( and western muslims) approach the issue over the years that has been quite subtle. Subtle enough to go unnoticed but still a shift in thinking.

I've seen it go from - homosexuals are dirty and filthy > being gay is not a choice ( but less emphasis on the dirt and flith) > homosexuality may not be a choice but homosexuals should abstain > its a sin but the shariah doesn't care what happens between 4 walls, just don't promote in public.

I think this transition in thinking has become quite mainstream.

Perhaps there will be another shift - gays who are born that way / gays who aren't, like people who are gay to exert dominance, or indulge in it for a fetish, or out of necessity. ( the people of Lot were probably bisexual even though they were punished for sodomy) and religious people will treat both groups in different ways.

Note that I'm not arguing for this change—I'm just saying it could go that way if the current trajectory continues.

A very insightful and thought-provoking post, it is how humans in general deal with anything that challenges them.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

I was thinking about this yesterday.

I think actually there has been bit of flexibility on how British Muslims ( and western muslims) approach the issue over the years that has been quite subtle. Subtle enough to go unnoticed but still a shift in thinking.

I've seen it go from - homosexuals are dirty and filthy > being gay is not a choice ( but less emphasis on the dirt and flith) > homosexuality may not be a choice but homosexuals should abstain > its a sin but the shariah doesn't care what happens between 4 walls, just don't promote in public.

I think this transition in thinking has become quite mainstream.

Perhaps there will be another shift - gays who are born that way / gays who aren't, like people who are gay to exert dominance, or indulge in it for a fetish, or out of necessity. ( the people of Lot were probably bisexual even though they were punished for sodomy) and religious people will treat both groups in different ways.

Note that I'm not arguing for this change—I'm just saying it could go that way if the current trajectory continues.

This is the view I have seen argued by some of the more current Islamic commentators and ironically it probably has more basis in Sharia than those who are vehemently hateful towards homosexuality. Also you see it reflected in homosexuals taking vacations in countries like Dubai where they presumably keep their taboo activities to their hotel rooms.

Where British Muslims have drawn the line is when it is taught as a lifestyle choice in schools to their children, and we are also seeing many non-Muslims showing some backlash to this and politicians doing a U-turn on shared sex changing rooms and such.

 

[LordJames]

Yes, you can post it in reply to my original post. It was in the Dawah thread started by @LordJames, who I've noticed hasn't been here in a while. Seems like he's realised he's no longer able to defend sharia and jumped ship.

Hi,

Just got busy with an emergency situation so have not been able to pay attention to the forum, unfortunately.

I erroneously thought that it was possible to have a “discussion” with members but I was wrong because:

• When I write detailed posts elaborating a topic, I am told “Its too long” and I can’t read it
• When I summarize it, I get lol and
• When I post a video, I get “stop posting videos of so and so”

In short, I realized that this is a “Time Pass” section.

Take the issue of “Sperm coming from between the backbone & the ribcage issue” apparently based on this:

https://quran.com/86/5-7

Anyone can google and read all sides of the argument as to what these verses actually mean but if someone wants to bring it in the forum they need to be committed to present their argument as thoroughly and in detail as possible.

There is nothing wrong with disagreement and its part of life.

There is something fundamentally wrong with dishonesty, deceit and deception where arguments are mocked without even trying to understand them.

There are multiple interpretations of these verse and each can be discussed in detail.

So whenever I am free and feel like "passing time" I will engage