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Ahmed Shehzad vs Ajinkya Rahane : The better future prospect?

Anyway, superb again from him. Most batsmen go their entire careers without ever getting to say they got a hundred on day 1 on a genuine greentop.
 
Ranji Trophy is a great place to pick batsmen. If only they could ban the IPL and see the light, folks like Jadeja won't adulterate the team.
 
He plays pace better than spin, times the ball really well on both sides of the wicket and has solid technique. Should be India's permanent ODI opener with Dhawan/ Rohit/Uthappa fighting for the second slot.
 
Mamoon said:
He plays pace better than spin, times the ball really well on both sides of the wicket and has solid technique. Should be India's permanent ODI opener with Dhawan/ Rohit/Uthappa fighting for the second slot.
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Still unproven on rank turners.

Lyon owned him in that Delhi Test. Sample size is low but Rahane needs to work on spin. He did improve after that but unless I see him on a rank turner I can't properly judge.
 
Think he will always be better against pace than spin. At the moment, Shehzad is a poor man's Rahane.
 
sensible-indian-fan said:
Still unproven on rank turners.

Lyon owned him in that Delhi Test. Sample size is low but Rahane needs to work on spin. He did improve after that but unless I see him on a rank turner I can't properly judge.
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I think his start to test cricket was really bad but he came onto his own since the SA tour late last year. He is India's gem as far as overseas batting is concerned. He will for sure bat better now, if he plays in India on those turners. He is one of those guys whom the Indian fans will keep doubting and keep placing below Kohli and Pujara, in spite of possessing equal ability.
 
giri26 said:
I think his start to test cricket was really bad but he came onto his own since the SA tour late last year. He is India's gem as far as overseas batting is concerned. He will for sure bat better now, if he plays in India on those turners. He is one of those guys whom the Indian fans will keep doubting and keep placing below Kohli and Pujara, in spite of possessing equal ability.
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You guys should be happy to have 3 of them. These three are going to form the core of batting for Indians for years to come. I absolutely loved watching Rahane today but he showed his class in SA and NZ as well.
 
Buffet said:
You guys should be happy to have 3 of them. These three are going to form the core of batting for Indians for years to come. I absolutely loved watching Rahane today but he showed his class in SA and NZ as well.
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Yup, these three are great for India...The Indian fans always will break into player comparisons and we cannot compare one without putting down the other. I feel all three of them are great asset, now only if we can find a good wicket Keeping batsman and one good number 6..I am not convinced that Rohit Sharma is that.
 
giri26 said:
Yup, these three are great for India...The Indian fans always will break into player comparisons and we cannot compare one without putting down the other. I feel all three of them are great asset, now only if we can find a good wicket Keeping batsman and one good number 6..I am not convinced that Rohit Sharma is that.
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Many times, he plays way away from his body. It looks good when it comes off but you are going to get found out when ball moves. I don't think that he can be a good player at 6 with this weakness.
 
giri26 said:
I think his start to test cricket was really bad but he came onto his own since the SA tour late last year. He is India's gem as far as overseas batting is concerned. He will for sure bat better now, if he plays in India on those turners. He is one of those guys whom the Indian fans will keep doubting and keep placing below Kohli and Pujara, in spite of possessing equal ability.
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I don't under rate him. I am not sure of his spin game but yeah now that he has come onto his own, I think he will do well in spin tracks eventually.

I am not a Kohli fan in Tests. Let him prove something first.
 
Hate is a strong word. I don't know him personally hence I cannot have a love-hate relationship with him, but yes I don't rate him much and I fail to see the hype surrounding him, which is fueled by the desperation of finding the next great Pakistani batsman more than anything.
 
sensible-indian-fan said:
Still unproven on rank turners.
Lyon owned him in that Delhi Test. Sample size is low but Rahane needs to work on spin. He did improve after that but unless I see him on a rank turner I can't properly judge.
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That is a bit harsh on Rahane. It was his debut, if I'm not mistaken. I'm sure he would play spin as easily as pace coz he has the gift of time. Plays so late and has all the time in the world, so I'm not worried!
 
EliteCynic said:
That is a bit harsh on Rahane. It was his debut, if I'm not mistaken. I'm sure he would play spin as easily as pace coz he has the gift of time. Plays so late and has all the time in the world, so I'm not worried!
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Maybe but let me tell you why I made that comment.

I had watched Rahane in IPL before (he became this awesome) and he used to struggle against spin BADLY. Later on I noticed via IPL that his spin playing ability improved.

See, though all this overseas runs scored are worth their weight in GOLD, India will be playing 50% of its tests at home and on rank turners. So for the next 10-15 years, you are going to see Rahane playing on dry turners WAY more than overseas conditions (cos not all away tests are swing-seam tracks).

I am not asking Rahane to be some rank turner champion but he needs to be able to hold his own against good spinners on tough spin tracks. As of now, we don't know. Good spinners can take out Rahane in good spin tracks (as of now). So I feel he needs to work on that aspect (if he hasn't already). As long as he does pretty decent in spin tracks and great in other tracks, I would be very happy.

But seeing Rahane's growth, I am sure he would work on any weakness if he has them and do well on all tracks. As of now, I can't declare him as a guy for all tracks but by the looks of how he has been developing its just a matter of time.
 
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sensible-indian-fan said:
Maybe but let me tell you why I made that comment.

I had watched Rahane in IPL before (he became this awesome) and he used to struggle against spin BADLY. Later on I noticed via IPL that his spin playing ability improved.

See, though all this overseas runs scored are worth their weight in GOLD, India will be playing 50% of its tests at home and on rank turners. So for the next 10-15 years, you are going to see Rahane playing on dry turners WAY more than overseas conditions (cos not all away tests are swing-seam tracks).

I am not asking Rahane to be some rank turner champion but he needs to be able to hold his own against good spinners on tough spin tracks. As of now, we don't know. Good spinners can take out Rahane in good spin tracks (as of now). So I feel he needs to work on that aspect (if he hasn't already). As long as he does pretty decent in spin tracks and great in other tracks, I would be very happy.

But seeing Rahane's growth, I am sure he would work on any weakness if he has them and do well on all tracks. As of now, I can't declare him as a guy for all tracks but by the looks of how he has been developing its just a matter of time.
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I am very sure that every single Indian batsmen can hold their own against spinners. Not all of them will be gun players of spin but I have not seen too many crappy players of spin coming out of India. I have noticed that even Indian openers play spin very well because without playing spin well, you can't go far in India.

If I am not mistaken then Rahane has a fine record in domestics and you can't have that if you don't play spin well. I will never judge anyone based on T-20 games. I may be wrong about Rahane domestic but I recall reading it in PP a while back.
 
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Buffet said:
I am very sure that every single Indian batsmen can hold their own against spinners. Not all of them will be gun players of spin but I have not seen too many crappy players of spin coming out of India. I have noticed that even Indian openers play spin very well because without playing spin well, you can't go far in India.

If I am not mistaken then Rahane has a fine record in domestics and you can't have that if you don't play spin well. I will never judge anyone based on T-20 games. I may be wrong about Rahane domestic but I recall reading it in PP a while back.[/QUOTE]

You are absolutely right about Rahane's domestic record...The guy averages almost 60 with 21 hundreds...He cannot be too shabby against the spinners...In his initial couple of tests he seemed extremely nervous and that contributed to his wickets. He since then has settled down and has looked brilliant in tests.
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sensible-indian-fan said:
Maybe but let me tell you why I made that comment.

I had watched Rahane in IPL before (he became this awesome) and he used to struggle against spin BADLY. Later on I noticed via IPL that his spin playing ability improved.

See, though all this overseas runs scored are worth their weight in GOLD, India will be playing 50% of its tests at home and on rank turners. So for the next 10-15 years, you are going to see Rahane playing on dry turners WAY more than overseas conditions (cos not all away tests are swing-seam tracks).

I am not asking Rahane to be some rank turner champion but he needs to be able to hold his own against good spinners on tough spin tracks. As of now, we don't know. Good spinners can take out Rahane in good spin tracks (as of now). So I feel he needs to work on that aspect (if he hasn't already). As long as he does pretty decent in spin tracks and great in other tracks, I would be very happy.

But seeing Rahane's growth, I am sure he would work on any weakness if he has them and do well on all tracks. As of now, I can't declare him as a guy for all tracks but by the looks of how he has been developing its just a matter of time.
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You are a hard man to please. I wonder how many of our past players would satisfy that criteria barring the big 3-4.

Again a bit harsh dude. Ok, he struggled when you saw him play spin in IPL, but that was IPL, I think has very very little bearing on your technique and temperament. The guy averages 66 for Mumbai and 56 for ROI, I'm sure he would have played plenty of spinners in the domestic circuit. For some reason, I'm unable to pull his FC records. This would be a great indicator though!
http://cricketarchive.com/Archive/Players/154/154043/f_Batting_by_Team.html

Though, I agree with you on one point, the guy has the attitude to iron out his chinks and come back stronger. We do not need a century maker, we need guys with attitude like this. If the attitude persists, centuries would automatically come. I would declare him as a guy for all tracks, based on whatever I have seen till now. True test awaits when we play SL or Pak in the future, but let's savor this moment and enjoy the languid batting of a shy youngster who has painted the lords canvas with a beautiful innings!
 
Buffet said:
I am very sure that every single Indian batsmen can hold their own against spinners. Not all of them will be gun players of spin but I have not seen too many crappy players of spin coming out of India. I have noticed that even Indian openers play spin very well because without playing spin well, you can't go far in India.

If I am not mistaken then Rahane has a fine record in domestics and you can't have that if you don't play spin well. I will never judge anyone based on T-20 games. I may be wrong about Rahane domestic but I recall reading it in PP a while back.
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I saw him in IPL over quite a few games. Then Delhi Test happened where Lyon REALLY troubled him.

But to be fair, Rahane has improved a lot over the years.

One thing: You see, the definition of holding one's own varies. India being a batting nation would expect its batsman to post big scores in India. Every Indian batsman is expected to score well in India (atleast relative to those who would be fighting for their spots). If Rahane faces 2-3 continuous home series and doesn't do well, frustration will creep in and he might feel his position is threatened.

See, I am not trying to be very negative but I am just that Rahane needs to improve his spin playing game. If he has, great. If he hasn't, he better do. Being No 5 in the Indian middle order, there will be a lot of expectation on him. There will be times when he would have to come in on absolute landmines and navigate through. So that requires certain skills which I would expect Rahane to master since he is such a good batsman.

Sometimes domestic records don't mean much cos with so many teams, there will also be a lot of rubbish spinners. For example - Jaddu for all his centuries CANNOT EVEN DEFEND properly against an average off spinner like Moeen Ali. Its not a one off event. Jaddu is really hopeless. If Ashwin were to bowl to him in Test matches, he will just own him left, right and centre. So sometimes domestic runs may not paint the right picture. In this case, we can't conclude that just because Rahane averages 60 in domestic, he must play spin well (here spin referring to quality spinners on tough tracks).
 
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EliteCynic said:
You are a hard man to please. I wonder how many of our past players would satisfy that criteria barring the big 3-4.

Again a bit harsh dude. Ok, he struggled when you saw him play spin in IPL, but that was IPL, I think has very very little bearing on your technique and temperament. The guy averages 66 for Mumbai and 56 for ROI, I'm sure he would have played plenty of spinners in the domestic circuit. For some reason, I'm unable to pull his FC records. This would be a great indicator though!
http://cricketarchive.com/Archive/Players/154/154043/f_Batting_by_Team.html

Though, I agree with you on one point, the guy has the attitude to iron out his chinks and come back stronger. We do not need a century maker, we need guys with attitude like this. If the attitude persists, centuries would automatically come. I would declare him as a guy for all tracks, based on whatever I have seen till now. True test awaits when we play SL or Pak in the future, but let's savor this moment and enjoy the languid batting of a shy youngster who has painted the lords canvas with a beautiful innings!
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I am not a hard man to please. I just know what will happen if there are 2-3 continuous home series with turner tracks and Rahane fails on them.

The same Indians praising him will be calling for his head. Its a serious issue. You have to be above a certain threshold when it comes to playing spin if you truly want to be part of the Indian test team.

Dhawan has a dodgy case. Rahane is yet to prove himself.

Also see my post #265.
 
See, I am not trying to be very negative but I am just that Rahane needs to improve his spin playing game.
How can you make that assessment? Based on a few IPL games and that ONE test in Delhi?Come on dude, you are hanging him without a trial.

If Rahane faces 2-3 continuous home series and doesn't do well, frustration will creep in and he might feel his position is threatened.
Ok, let's say he fails in a series against SL and we are due to go to SA after that, would you select horses for courses or drop him coz his technique is poor against spin, hence he couldn't score runs, hence low on confidence, hence can't be risked and would take Suresh Raina instead?

For example - Jaddu for all his centuries CANNOT EVEN DEFEND properly against an average off spinner like Moeen Ali. Its not a one off event. Jaddu is really hopeless. If Ashwin were to bowl to him in Test matches, he will just own him left, right and centre. So sometimes domestic runs may not paint the right picture.

Again, I would not agree here, or rather let us agree to disagree. Even if he has 3 triples on ROADS, they are nonetheless triples and hold some value for the time spent on crease, concentration and technique. You are being very harsh.
 
sensible-indian-fan said:
I am not a hard man to please. I just know what will happen if there are 2-3 continuous home series with turner tracks and Rahane fails on them.

The same Indians praising him will be calling for his head. Its a serious issue. You have to be above a certain threshold when it comes to playing spin if you truly want to be part of the Indian test team.

Dhawan has a dodgy case. Rahane is yet to prove himself.

Also see my post #265.
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Reg Post 265

See, I am not trying to be very negative but I am just that Rahane needs to improve his spin playing game.
How can you make that assessment? Based on a few IPL games and that ONE test in Delhi?Come on dude, you are hanging him without a trial.

If Rahane faces 2-3 continuous home series and doesn't do well, frustration will creep in and he might feel his position is threatened.
Ok, let's say he fails in a series against SL and we are due to go to SA after that, would you select horses for courses or drop him coz his technique is poor against spin, hence he couldn't score runs, hence low on confidence, hence can't be risked and would take Suresh Raina instead?

For example - Jaddu for all his centuries CANNOT EVEN DEFEND properly against an average off spinner like Moeen Ali. Its not a one off event. Jaddu is really hopeless. If Ashwin were to bowl to him in Test matches, he will just own him left, right and centre. So sometimes domestic runs may not paint the right picture.

Again, I would not agree here, or rather let us agree to disagree. Even if he has 3 triples on ROADS, they are nonetheless triples and hold some value for the time spent on crease, concentration and technique. You are being very harsh.
 
He looks like a Silent Assassin. Like his figure may look small but he packs a punch.
 
EliteCynic said:
Reg Post 265

See, I am not trying to be very negative but I am just that Rahane needs to improve his spin playing game.
How can you make that assessment? Based on a few IPL games and that ONE test in Delhi?Come on dude, you are hanging him without a trial.

If Rahane faces 2-3 continuous home series and doesn't do well, frustration will creep in and he might feel his position is threatened.
Ok, let's say he fails in a series against SL and we are due to go to SA after that, would you select horses for courses or drop him coz his technique is poor against spin, hence he couldn't score runs, hence low on confidence, hence can't be risked and would take Suresh Raina instead?

For example - Jaddu for all his centuries CANNOT EVEN DEFEND properly against an average off spinner like Moeen Ali. Its not a one off event. Jaddu is really hopeless. If Ashwin were to bowl to him in Test matches, he will just own him left, right and centre. So sometimes domestic runs may not paint the right picture.

Again, I would not agree here, or rather let us agree to disagree. Even if he has 3 triples on ROADS, they are nonetheless triples and hold some value for the time spent on crease, concentration and technique. You are being very harsh.
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A few points:

1. I judged Rahane based on his technique of playing spin. Not just score cards. Its simplistic to say that I am dismissing him after 1 test. In fact, I am not. Just saying that he needs to play good knocks in spin tracks and I am not confident of his ability to face good spinners in turners (based on what I saw a long time back - I also acknowledged that he could have improved a lot).

2. You wouldn't drop him if he fails in spin tracks for a series or 2. But it would create a lot of talks and sometimes that can have a negative impact. When Rohit scored his 2 centuries in 2 innings against WI, everyone said "see Rohit was always meant to play Test cricket not ODI". Now after the failure of 2 series (SA and NZ), where does Rohit stand? Even for tests in India his place is not a guarantee as Rahane has performed now and will get the first shot at it (remember Rohit scored 2 centuries in India - one of them a truly match turning around innings). See how things pan out.

3. Jaddu is rubbish when he defends against off spin. He can slog a few but watch his technique. When you have such issues, good spinners will take you out before your other attributes can help you. Eg - Yuvi was a far better striker than Dravid but he never had the ability to see off the tough spells to capitalize on the easy spells. So he never could make it in Tests.
 
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Buffet said:
I am very sure that every single Indian batsmen can hold their own against spinners. Not all of them will be gun players of spin but I have not seen too many crappy players of spin coming out of India. I have noticed that even Indian openers play spin very well because without playing spin well, you can't go far in India.

If I am not mistaken then Rahane has a fine record in domestics and you can't have that if you don't play spin well. I will never judge anyone based on T-20 games. I may be wrong about Rahane domestic but I recall reading it in PP a while back.
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Agreed, and was saying the same to SIF as well. I reckon he is being unecessarily harsh on him based on a few meaningless T20 games and a debut test.

Reg AR's FC record, it is phenomenal
Team Matches Inns Not Out Runs HS Ave 100 50 Ct St
India 6 11 1 435 118 43.50 1 2 3
India A 1 0 16 1 491 118 32.73 1 3 5
Indian Board President's XI 1 2 1 113 113* 113.00 1 0 2
Mumbai 43 70 8 4123 265* 66.50 15 16 33
Rest of India 2 3 1 246 152 123.00 1 1 3
West Zone 8 16 1 844 172 56.26 2 4 12
 
After Rahanes exploits today. Shehzad will need to make a big ton on a rank turner in SL to make this comparsion valid (Tests)
 
[MENTION=137012]EliteCynic[/MENTION] - Bud you are misinterpreting my point.

I want Rahane to do well. I am sure he will do well.

Just talking about reality and how selections work in India.

An Indian middle order batsman has to be good at playing spin. Its non negotiable as we play 50% tests in India (70% odd if you add in countries like SL, WI, UAE into the mix).

If Rahane is, great. If he isn't, he must work on it.
 
sensible-indian-fan said:
A few points:

1. I judged Rahane based on his technique of playing spin. Not just score cards. Its simplistic to say that I am dismissing him after 1 test. In fact, I am not. Just saying that he needs to play good knocks in spin tracks and


2. You wouldn't drop him if he fails in spin tracks for a series or 2. But it would create a lot of talks and sometimes that can have a negative impact. When Rohit scored his 2 centuries in 2 innings against WI, everyone said "see Rohit was always meant to play Test cricket not ODI". Now after the failure of 2 series (SA and NZ), where does Rohit stand? Even for tests in India his place is not a guarantee as Rahane has performed now and will get the first shot at it (remember Rohit scored 2 centuries in India - one of them a truly match turning around innings).

3. Jaddu is rubbish when he defends against off spin. He can slog a few but watch his technique. When you have such issues, good spinners will take you out before your other attributes can help you. Eg - Yuvi was a far better striker than Dravid but he never had the ability to see off the tough spells to capitalize on the easy spells. So he never could make it in Tests.
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I am not confident of his ability to face good spinners in turners (based on what I saw a long time back - I also acknowledged that he could have improved a lot).
That is a much better statement to make rather than "See, I am not trying to be very negative but I am just that Rahane needs to improve his spin playing game". Changes the context completely. Yes, given a chance he would play well, let's wait and watch. He was a passenger for a long time when he couldn't get into the team because of Big 4. He would get plenty of chances and I'm sure he would come good.

See how things pan out. totally agree, but from a purist and romantic point of view, you can clearly see this man is here to stay, where as, despite the twin centuries, deep down you knew that the talented Mr Ripley would fail abroad.


On another note, Jaddu is in team for his bowling and his batting is an asset, so whatever comes is a bonus. Still reckon he is lesser test bat than Ashwin, but much better bowler overseas. Ashwin is BEYOND PATHETIC overseas and has an elephant sized ego to even accept it. Still think it was jaddu who took the 1st test in NZ so close with his batting.
 
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sensible-indian-fan said:
[MENTION=137012]EliteCynic[/MENTION] - Bud you are misinterpreting my point.

I want Rahane to do well. I am sure he will do well.

Just talking about reality and how selections work in India.

An Indian middle order batsman has to be good at playing spin. Its non negotiable as we play 50% tests in India (70% odd if you add in countries like SL, WI, UAE into the mix).

If Rahane is, great. If he isn't, he must work on it.
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Thanks for the clarification. I just wanted us to be on the same page. And i'm having a tough time with quoting posts (dunno why). All good. Now let's take a deep breath and hope Bhuvi can swing it around tomorrow ;)
 
EliteCynic said:
I am not confident of his ability to face good spinners in turners (based on what I saw a long time back - I also acknowledged that he could have improved a lot).
That is a much better statement to make rather than "See, I am not trying to be very negative but I am just that Rahane needs to improve his spin playing game". Changes the context completely. Yes, given a chance he would play well, let's wait and watch. He was a passenger for a long time when he couldn't get into the team because of Big 4. He would get plenty of chances and I'm sure he would come good.

See how things pan out. totally agree, but from a purist and romantic point of view, you can clearly see this man is here to stay, where as, despite the twin centuries, deep down you knew that the talented Mr Ripley would fail abroad.


On another note, Jaddu is in team for his bowling and his batting is an asset, so whatever comes is a bonus. Still reckon he is lesser test bat than Ashwin, but much better bowler overseas. Ashwin is BEYOND PATHETIC overseas and has an elephant sized ego to even accept it. Still think it was jaddu who took the 1st test in NZ so close with his batting.
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1. No bud it doesn't change the context AT ALL. See the quote below. You left out the very next line which reveals the context in which I spoke the prev line.

See, I am not trying to be very negative but I am just that Rahane needs to improve his spin playing game. If he has, great. If he hasn't, he better do. Being No 5 in the Indian middle order, there will be a lot of expectation on him. There will be times when he would have to come in on absolute landmines and navigate through. So that requires certain skills which I would expect Rahane to master since he is such a good batsman.
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2. Absolutely. Rohit is a joker. Rahane is here to stay.

3. Its a myth that Jaddu is better than Ashwin in overseas.

Jaddu - 4 tests - 9 wickets (6 of them in that Durban spin track where even Robit Peterson got 4 Indian wickets in our last innings)
Ashwin - 4 tests - 9 wickets (not one spin track - Joberg was more flat but he should have got 1-2 wickets there)

Ashwin is here to stay. Jaddu is the joker (when it comes to overseas).

Even spinners like Kumble too took a while to get used to overseas conditions.
 
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EliteCynic said:
Thanks for the clarification. I just wanted us to be on the same page. And i'm having a tough time with quoting posts (dunno why). All good. Now let's take a deep breath and hope Bhuvi can swing it around tomorrow ;)
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Sure bud.

Bhuvi and Ishant.

Ishant's seam is what I am counting my hopes on.
 
Is it really fair to compare an opener with a #5? Both look promisong in their respective positions.

Shehzad vs Vijay would have been a better comparison.
 
EliteCynic said:
I am not confident of his ability to face good spinners in turners (based on what I saw a long time back - I also acknowledged that he could have improved a lot).
That is a much better statement to make rather than "See, I am not trying to be very negative but I am just that Rahane needs to improve his spin playing game". Changes the context completely. Yes, given a chance he would play well, let's wait and watch. He was a passenger for a long time when he couldn't get into the team because of Big 4. He would get plenty of chances and I'm sure he would come good.

See how things pan out. totally agree, but from a purist and romantic point of view, you can clearly see this man is here to stay, where as, despite the twin centuries, deep down you knew that the talented Mr Ripley would fail abroad.


On another note, Jaddu is in team for his bowling and his batting is an asset, so whatever comes is a bonus. Still reckon he is lesser test bat than Ashwin, but much better bowler overseas. Ashwin is BEYOND PATHETIC overseas and has an elephant sized ego to even accept it. Still think it was jaddu who took the 1st test in NZ so close with his batting.
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Okay tell me one Indian bowler who has been brilliant overseas in the initial part of their career? Ashwin has played a grand total of 5 games overseas, 4 of which was in Australia. A country which has been a graveyard for subcontinent spinners over the years. Anil Kumble visited Australia in 1999/00 after 7-8 years of international cricket...Played 3 tests and came back with the average of 90 and SR of 170 or something. So did we start not playing him? based on that evidence? He learned and became a very good bowler in the 2000's. It takes time for Indian spinners to mature and start bowling well overseas, Anil took 10+ years to learn that, we are not ready to give Ashwin even 10 tests. Unless he bowls repeatedly in those conditions he is neven going to learn and it will be India's loss to let go of the talent to waste. By playing Jadeja in all games, the only thing which is proven is that he is as bad as Ashwin overseas, his average overseas is reaching Ashwin with every passing innings. Ashwin at least had a redeeming factor with the bat, Jaddu does not have that either. Jaddu had one 6 wicket haul in SA, look at his performance in the subsequent tests, he hardly picked up any wickets and his batting has been beyond pathetic...We need to make a decision whether we need a run stopper or a wicket taker...If we are looking at a run stopper then we have the right person playing.
 
Bilal7 said:
Is it really fair to compare an opener with a #5? Both look promisong in their respective positions.

Shehzad vs Vijay would have been a better comparison.
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ROFL. I just got curious and dug up Shehzad's stats. As good a batsman he is, 3 matches is a VERY VERY small sample size an that too against the same team. I hope he scores well against Aus and becomes the next Inzi or MoYo for Pak, but comparing him with other people as yet, I would wait for a while.
 
EliteCynic said:
ROFL. I just got curious and dug up Shehzad's stats. As good a batsman he is, 3 matches is a VERY VERY small sample size an that too against the same team. I hope he scores well against Aus and becomes the next Inzi or MoYo for Pak, but comparing him with other people as yet, I would wait for a while.
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I said Vijay not Inzi or anyone.

And this wasn't a test only discussion, right?
 
giri26 said:
Okay tell me one Indian bowler who has been brilliant overseas in the initial part of their career? Ashwin has played a grand total of 5 games overseas, 4 of which was in Australia. A country which has been a graveyard for subcontinent spinners over the years. Anil Kumble visited Australia in 1999/00 after 7-8 years of international cricket...Played 3 tests and came back with the average of 90 and SR of 170 or something. So did we start not playing him? based on that evidence? He learned and became a very good bowler in the 2000's. It takes time for Indian spinners to mature and start bowling well overseas, Anil took 10+ years to learn that, we are not ready to give Ashwin even 10 tests. Unless he bowls repeatedly in those conditions he is neven going to learn and it will be India's loss to let go of the talent to waste. By playing Jadeja in all games, the only thing which is proven is that he is as bad as Ashwin overseas, his average overseas is reaching Ashwin with every passing innings. Ashwin at least had a redeeming factor with the bat, Jaddu does not have that either. Jaddu had one 6 wicket haul in SA, look at his performance in the subsequent tests, he hardly picked up any wickets and his batting has been beyond pathetic...We need to make a decision whether we need a run stopper or a wicket taker...If we are looking at a run stopper then we have the right person playing.
Click to expand...

Honestly mate, I don't think Ashwin is the best off spinner in India right now. I would rate Bhajji higher. I ABSOLUTELY LOATHE his attitude towards fielding/fitness and running between the wickets. Jaddu atleast took 6 wickets in SA, our guy was given 450 to defend and we all know what he did. Agree Jaddu might not be the best wicket taking option, but I reckon even Ashwin is not. The way he bowled against Eng in India, was shoddy, to say the least. Ashwin might be a good one day bowler, but still has miles to go in tests. His record is India is a poor reflection of the ground reality.

Please do not even compare him with Kumble yet.
p.s. I will never forgive him for not winning the test against WI in Mumbai.
 
Bilal7 said:
I said Vijay not Inzi or anyone.

And this wasn't a test only discussion, right?
Click to expand...

Misunderstood me, my friend. Anyway, I wish Shezzi all the best and hope he turns out to be run machine Pak is looking for!
 
EliteCynic said:
Honestly mate, I don't think Ashwin is the best off spinner in India right now. I would rate Bhajji higher. I ABSOLUTELY LOATHE his attitude towards fielding/fitness and running between the wickets. Jaddu atleast took 6 wickets in SA, our guy was given 450 to defend and we all know what he did. Agree Jaddu might not be the best wicket taking option, but I reckon even Ashwin is not. The way he bowled against Eng in India, was shoddy, to say the least. Ashwin might be a good one day bowler, but still has miles to go in tests. His record is India is a poor reflection of the ground reality.

Please do not even compare him with Kumble yet.
p.s. I will never forgive him for not winning the test against WI in Mumbai.
Click to expand...


I did not compare Kumble, I said that it took a legend like Kumble to learn bowling outside of India almost 10 years, so why are we expecting someone like Ashwin to start performing immediately. Don't understand on what evidence you are saying Bajji is better. In 2011 Mishra and Bajji went to WI after Ajmal had pretty much decimated WI batting and both of them were extremely ordinary. It was only due to the bowling of Ishant we won the series. Ashwin will take time but we cannot discard him unless we have a spinner who is head and shoulders above him in ability which Jadeja is not. Every batsman or bowler does something which costs the team the game, it is not only Ashwin...Don't forget that his hundred in the first innings was the reason we at least got to that point.
 
EliteCynic said:
Honestly mate, I don't think Ashwin is the best off spinner in India right now. I would rate Bhajji higher. I ABSOLUTELY LOATHE his attitude towards fielding/fitness and running between the wickets. Jaddu atleast took 6 wickets in SA, our guy was given 450 to defend and we all know what he did. Agree Jaddu might not be the best wicket taking option, but I reckon even Ashwin is not. The way he bowled against Eng in India, was shoddy, to say the least. Ashwin might be a good one day bowler, but still has miles to go in tests. His record is India is a poor reflection of the ground reality.

Please do not even compare him with Kumble yet.
p.s. I will never forgive him for not winning the test against WI in Mumbai.
Click to expand...

Jaddu got a spin track in Durban. See Robin Peterson's wickets in that same test.
Ashwin got a flat track in Joberg (but should have taken 1-2 wickets).

As a pure spinner: Ashwin > Jaddu easily.
 
giri26 said:
I did not compare Kumble, I said that it took a legend like Kumble to learn bowling outside of India almost 10 years, so why are we expecting someone like Ashwin to start performing immediately. Don't understand on what evidence you are saying Bajji is better. In 2011 Mishra and Bajji went to WI after Ajmal had pretty much decimated WI batting and both of them were extremely ordinary. It was only due to the bowling of Ishant we won the series. Ashwin will take time but we cannot discard him unless we have a spinner who is head and shoulders above him in ability which Jadeja is not. Every batsman or bowler does something which costs the team the game, it is not only Ashwin...Don't forget that his hundred in the first innings was the reason we at least got to that point.
Click to expand...

1. If it took Kumble that long, I don't think we should weigh Ashwin on the same scale.

2. Please dont get me wrong. I don't have anything personal against Ashwin. It is just that primarily he is an OFF-SPINNER, who needs to win India test matches with his OFF-SPIN. He started beautifully against WIndies and somewhere down the line, he started thinking he is a batsman as well and has been trying the Carrom ball or Sudoku ball (sodaku in tamil, if you know what I mean) far too often. This obsession with variation is what I do not like. I hope he learns from his mistakes and does well coz looks like Binny aint playing any more tests in Eng. He is an intelligent guy who talks the talk. Now it's time for him to walk the walk.

Reg the Mumbai test, it was his fitness which cost us the game. Could have easily run 2. All said an done, he is a poor athlete, fielder and catcher that is absolutely in-excusable in current scenario. Again, I have no problem if he accepts it and works on it and I hope he is.
 
sensible-indian-fan said:
Jaddu got a spin track in Durban. See Robin Peterson's wickets in that same test.
Ashwin got a flat track in Joberg (but should have taken 1-2 wickets).

As a pure spinner: Ashwin > Jaddu easily.
Click to expand...

Agreed mate as a pure spinner Ashwin>Jaddu, however Ashwin is not being a pure spinner, trying so many variations all the time. 6/6 balls are mostly carrom balls. He needs to get over his obession with variations (as I said above).

So i would say, as a pure spinner Ash> Jad, however, based on his obsession with variations and recent overseas performances etc (i.e. on current form), Jad >Ash, which Ash can easily work on.

Do not forget, he was out-bowled by Swann and Panesar in India, that was a very hard pill to swallow.
 
EliteCynic said:
Agreed mate as a pure spinner Ashwin>Jaddu, however Ashwin is not being a pure spinner, trying so many variations all the time. 6/6 balls are mostly carrom balls. He needs to get over his obession with variations (as I said above).

So i would say, as a pure spinner Ash> Jad, however, based on his obsession with variations and recent overseas performances etc (i.e. on current form), Jad >Ash, which Ash can easily work on.

Do not forget, he was out-bowled by Swann and Panesar in India, that was a very hard pill to swallow.
Click to expand...

recent overseas performances? He played one test recently lol....Australia was 2 years ago and even Bajji has an average of 73 there. If you are saying performances, it has to be more than one test right...You keep saying that he needs to improve, but how? If you don't play him overseas at all, how would you know he has improved? You are not suggesting picking him based on T20 and ODI right? Also Ashwin is not a bad catcher, he is a good slip fielder and decent outfield catcher...Remember the Bopara catch in Champions Trophy finals? If there is one bad catcher in the Indian team, that is Kohli. Fielding and running between the wickets yes, he isn't that great but he can improve. His primary skill is bowling and we will never know if he improved unless we play him overseas and obviously he is brilliant at home so no complaints there.
 
giri26 said:
recent overseas performances? He played one test recently lol....Australia was 2 years ago and even Bajji has an average of 73 there. If you are saying performances, it has to be more than one test right...You keep saying that he needs to improve, but how? If you don't play him overseas at all, how would you know he has improved? You are not suggesting picking him based on T20 and ODI right? Also Ashwin is not a bad catcher, he is a good slip fielder and decent outfield catcher...Remember the Bopara catch in Champions Trophy finals? If there is one bad catcher in the Indian team, that is Kohli. Fielding and running between the wickets yes, he isn't that great but he can improve. His primary skill is bowling and we will never know if he improved unless we play him overseas and obviously he is brilliant at home so no complaints there.
Click to expand...

To play overseas, he needs to have the captain's confidence, and ATM it doesn't look like Dhoni prefers him to be the No 1 spinner. I reiterate the fact that he is not the best spinner in the country at the moment. Yes, his primary skill is bowling, and he should work on winning the management's confidence, something which Jaddu is doing at the moment. If Jaddu fails, then may be he would come back into reckoning (just like how Jaddu came in when Ashwin failed miserably in Jo'burg - He bowled 42 overs only in 2 innings and of that, only 5 maidens. If you cannot take wickets, at least contain the batsmen). Now please do not come up with the argument that Dhoni is partial towards Jaddu!

Agreed, Kohli is not a great close in fielder, but I don't think Ashwin is either. He is the worst fielder in the Indian team and no one can deny that. In the midst of that Bopara catch, I don't think I have to remind you how many important catches he has dropped (off the top of my head, Smith in SA, Bailey in India, I'm sure there are more).
 
what a stupid comparison.....rahane is in a different league compared to shehzad ....even Bhuvi is better than tht kohli wannabe
 
Straight_Drive said:
what a stupid comparison.....rahane is in a different league compared to shehzad ....even Bhuvi is better than tht kohli wannabe
Click to expand...
Calm with your trolling this aint troll cricket. Rahane is in a different league as Test Batting goes. But In ODIS Shehzad is better.
 
Pakistani_Legend said:
Please stop trolling. This is a serious forum for good discussions.

If you can't discuss anything properly, please don't.
Click to expand...

oh really troll what do you have to say about the following statement
Bullet Drive said:
What a joke.

Shehzad is a better test, ODI and T20 batsman then Rahane and I actually rate Rahane.

Shehzad is on course to becoming a world wide legend.

Its tough on Rahane to compare him with our legends.
Click to expand...

Was this not troll enough for you?
 
Straight_Drive said:
oh really troll what do you have to say about the following statement


Was this not troll enough for you?
Click to expand...
Bullet Drive is a well known deluded fan/troll on PP. These type of trollish comments are commonplace for him. And he is routinely mocked for them. Dont follow his example
 
Finally, we have got an Indian Bullet Drive. Too many Drives on this forum now.
 
Rahane should be better in all formats but yes at the moment, Shehzad is ahead in Limited Overs.
 
EliteCynic said:
To play overseas, he needs to have the captain's confidence, and ATM it doesn't look like Dhoni prefers him to be the No 1 spinner. I reiterate the fact that he is not the best spinner in the country at the moment. Yes, his primary skill is bowling, and he should work on winning the management's confidence, something which Jaddu is doing at the moment. If Jaddu fails, then may be he would come back into reckoning (just like how Jaddu came in when Ashwin failed miserably in Jo'burg - He bowled 42 overs only in 2 innings and of that, only 5 maidens. If you cannot take wickets, at least contain the batsmen). Now please do not come up with the argument that Dhoni is partial towards Jaddu!

Agreed, Kohli is not a great close in fielder, but I don't think Ashwin is either. He is the worst fielder in the Indian team and no one can deny that. In the midst of that Bopara catch, I don't think I have to remind you how many important catches he has dropped (off the top of my head, Smith in SA, Bailey in India, I'm sure there are more).
Click to expand...


Dhoni is a captain who mostly thinks in ODI mode....That's the reason he likes Jaddu better...Jadeja is merely used by Dhoni to stop runs and pick up odd wickets here and there so that he can attack with the fast bowlers. He does not know how to handle a attacking spinner overseas...In India it becomes easier for him due to the pitches. That's the reason he plays Jaddu over Ashwin...There is no other reason for this. India are basically playing with 3 bowlers with one bowler not bowling enough overs and the other one not picking wickets. So Bhuvi, Shami and Ishant are the only ones taking any wickets for India.
 
Straight_Drive said:
well we will only find that out once pakistan tour england......Bhuvi has a pretty solid technique.....can't really say that about shehzad
Click to expand...
And he's scored centuries away from home without having a solid technique... When did bhuv do that?
 
Straight_Drive said:
Dhoni is ODI batting Legend ....your argument is invalid :p
Click to expand...

He doesn't score runs because of his technique. He comes and plays those big shots, assesses the situation well and plays according to it and because of that, he remains not out; these not outs do help his average.
 
Pakistani_Legend said:
He doesn't score runs because of his technique. He comes and plays those big shots, assesses the situation well and plays according to it and because of that, he remains not out; these not outs do help his average.
Click to expand...

Exactly , you don't need technique to score runs in odi.....thank you for elucidating my point
 
Straight_Drive said:
Exactly , you don't need technique to score runs in odi.....thank you for elucidating my point
Click to expand...

Shahzad opens the batting and you need technique to score in any format while opening. Dhoni bats at #6/7 and it is not necessary to have a Bradman-esque technique at that position to score.

Also, I would take a player without technique who scores runs over a player who has great technique but doesn't score. The latter might become better in the long run but we are comparing them on their present performance.
 
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