What's new

All time great away series for pacers against top sides

Buffet

Buffet

Post of the Week winner
Joined
Aug 1, 2011
Runs
27,198
Post of the Week
3
Bumrah is having a ATG away series right now against a top and very dominant home test team. He has crossed 30 test wickets in Aus with very low average of 12 so far when we have already seen 7 tons by batsmen in this series.

I think not all pacers get to play long series. Cut off of 20 tests with sub 20 avg and doing it against the top 4 sides should make it special. If a bowler does it against best team then it's even better. But let's stick to top 4 sides. I will try to go back in time starting from current and try to bunch it by countries. I will appreciate if posters can add some missing names. I think we can look previous 5 calendar years of W/L to see if sides was top 4 test side at that time.


List of ATG away series for pacers - 20 wickets with sub 20 Avg - against top 4 sides

------------------------------------------

Marshall in Aus - 82 series - Avg 19 : 28 wickets
Marshall in Eng - 84 series - Avg 18 : 24 wickets

Garner in Eng - 80 series - Avg 14 : 26 wickets
Garner in Eng - 84 series - Avg 18 : 29 wickets

Ambrose in Aus - 92 series - Avg 16 : 33 wickets
Holding in Eng - 76 series - Avg 12 : 28 wickets
Roberts in Eng - 76 series - Avg 19 : 28 wickets
Walsh in SA - 98 series - Avg 18 : 22 wickets

--------------------------------------
Lilee in Eng - 72 series - Avg 17 : 31 wickets
Harris in Eng - 13 series - Avg 19 : 24 wickets
Johnson in SA - 13 series - Avg 17 : 22 wickets
-------------------------------------

Bumrah in Aus - 24 series - Avg 12 : 31 wickets [ ongoing , but we can update numbers ]
Bumrah in Aus - 18 series - Avg 17 : 21 wickets

-------------------------------------

IK in Eng - 82 series - Avg 18 : 21 wickets


------------------------------------


Some noteworthy series performance is not here, like Hadlee in Aus, because when I looked it came when host team was not among the top 4 in W/L in 5 calender years before the series. If I miss any, please point out and we will make this list longer after making sure that host team was among the top 4 sides before the series.

I may have missed some names.
 
whats the highest number of wickets in serious irrespect of opposition
 
Major said:
whats the highest number of wickets in serious irrespect of opposition
Click to expand...
I think you meant series,

Alderman in Eng in 6 tests - 42 wickets at avg of 21.

I am ignoring pre 1970s time.
 
if India fail to win the series can we still claim it as ATG bowling?
 
DeadlyVenom said:
if India fail to win the series can we still claim it as ATG bowling?
Click to expand...
Why not? ATG bowling is bowlers effort.

We can say that this ATG bowling was not a series changing bowling. For imapct of bowlers in series/tests we can make a separate thread to list impact of bowlers in series/tests.
 
Major said:
yeh sure. They made Tendulkar, a God for his innings in losing causes so why not this.
Click to expand...
In all seriousness it is a Herculean effort from Humrah. He is heads and shoulders above the others in his team and in the opposition.

You can argue he can get lots of wickets because rest of bowlers are rubbish so more wickets for him...but he also has a super low average so it shows that he is taking wickets based on bowling prowess.
 
saimayubera said:
Using that logic, Pak has no ATG bowlers cause they never won an away series in Aus, SA, WI.

Heck, that Imran series in 1982 mentioned Eng won 2-1 and Eng wasn't a top side in the 80s.
Click to expand...
We are discussing ATG series by bowlers. Not ATG Bowlers. It is two separate things.
 
Buffet said:
Bumrah is having a ATG away series right now against a top and very dominant home test team. He has crossed 30 test wickets in Aus with very low average of 12 so far when we have already seen 7 tons by batsmen in this series.

I think not all pacers get to play long series. Cut off of 20 tests with sub 20 avg and doing it against the top 4 sides should make it special. If a bowler does it against best team then it's even better. But let's stick to top 4 sides. I will try to go back in time starting from current and try to bunch it by countries. I will appreciate if posters can add some missing names. I think we can look previous 5 calendar years of W/L to see if sides was top 4 test side at that time.


List of ATG away series for pacers - 20 wickets with sub 20 Avg - against top 4 sides

------------------------------------------

Marshall in Aus - 82 series - Avg 19 : 28 wickets
Marshall in Eng - 84 series - Avg 18 : 24 wickets

Garner in Eng - 80 series - Avg 14 : 26 wickets
Garner in Eng - 84 series - Avg 18 : 29 wickets

Ambrose in Aus - 92 series - Avg 16 : 33 wickets
Holding in Eng - 76 series - Avg 12 : 28 wickets
Roberts in Eng - 76 series - Avg 19 : 28 wickets
Walsh in SA - 98 series - Avg 18 : 22 wickets

--------------------------------------
Lilee in Eng - 72 series - Avg 17 : 31 wickets
Harris in Eng - 13 series - Avg 19 : 24 wickets
Johnson in SA - 13 series - Avg 17 : 22 wickets
-------------------------------------

Bumrah in Aus - 24 series - Avg 12 : 31 wickets [ ongoing , but we can update numbers ]
Bumrah in Aus - 18 series - Avg 17 : 21 wickets

-------------------------------------

IK in Eng - 82 series - Avg 18 : 21 wickets


------------------------------------


Some noteworthy series performance is not here, like Hadlee in Aus, because when I looked it came when host team was not among the top 4 in W/L in 5 calender years before the series. If I miss any, please point out and we will make this list longer after making sure that host team was among the top 4 sides before the series.

I may have missed some names.
Click to expand...
What was Imran's average and wickets in the 88 series in West Indies?
 
saimayubera said:
Using that logic, Pak has no ATG bowlers cause they never won an away series in Aus, SA, WI.

Heck, that Imran series in 1982 mentioned Eng won 2-1 and Eng wasn't a top side in the 80s.
Click to expand...
I did check W/L of 5 years before that and unless i made a mistake, Eng did appear among the top 4 sides.

If you mean top 1-2 team then we won't have much of list. Top 1-2 teams of any era are not going to have many cases of visiting bowlers having ATG series against them in their own backyard.
 
Buffet said:
I did check W/L of 5 years before that and unless i made a mistake, Eng did appear among the top 4 sides.

If you mean top 1-2 team then we won't have much of list. Top 1-2 teams of any era are not going to have many cases of visiting bowlers having ATG series against them in their own backyard.
Click to expand...
aah ok. still pak lost.
 
ikky47 said:
What was Imran's average and wickets in the 88 series in West Indies?
Click to expand...
Good catch, I missed looking at it due to same avg as Eng. He had ATG series in WI with 23 wickets at avg of 18.
 
Buffet said:
Good catch, I missed looking at it due to same avg as Eng. He had ATG series in WI with 23 wickets at avg of 18.
Click to expand...
That is an ATG series, think Pak were unlucky to draw that series 1-1. I think that was probably Imran's best away tour as a pacer
 
Updated list:


List of ATG away series for pacers - 20 wickets with sub 20 Avg - against top 4 sides

------------------------------------------

Marshall in Aus - 82 series - Avg 19 : 28 wickets
Marshall in Eng - 84 series - Avg 18 : 24 wickets

Garner in Eng - 80 series - Avg 14 : 26 wickets
Garner in Eng - 84 series - Avg 18 : 29 wickets

Ambrose in Aus - 92 series - Avg 16 : 33 wickets
Holding in Eng - 76 series - Avg 12 : 28 wickets
Roberts in Eng - 76 series - Avg 19 : 28 wickets
Walsh in SA - 98 series - Avg 18 : 22 wickets

--------------------------------------
Lilee in Eng - 72 series - Avg 17 : 31 wickets
Harris in Eng - 13 series - Avg 19 : 24 wickets
Johnson in SA - 13 series - Avg 17 : 22 wickets
-------------------------------------

Bumrah in Aus - 24 series - Avg 12 : 31 wickets [ ongoing , but we can update numbers ]
Bumrah in Aus - 18 series - Avg 17 : 21 wickets

-------------------------------------

IK in Eng - 82 series - Avg 18 : 21 wickets
IK in WI - 87 series - Avg 18 : 23 wickets

------------------------------------
 
Buffet said:
Bumrah is having a ATG away series right now against a top and very dominant home test team. He has crossed 30 test wickets in Aus with very low average of 12 so far when we have already seen 7 tons by batsmen in this series.

I think not all pacers get to play long series. Cut off of 20 tests with sub 20 avg and doing it against the top 4 sides should make it special. If a bowler does it against best team then it's even better. But let's stick to top 4 sides. I will try to go back in time starting from current and try to bunch it by countries. I will appreciate if posters can add some missing names. I think we can look previous 5 calendar years of W/L to see if sides was top 4 test side at that time.


List of ATG away series for pacers - 20 wickets with sub 20 Avg - against top 4 sides

------------------------------------------

Marshall in Aus - 82 series - Avg 19 : 28 wickets
Marshall in Eng - 84 series - Avg 18 : 24 wickets

Garner in Eng - 80 series - Avg 14 : 26 wickets
Garner in Eng - 84 series - Avg 18 : 29 wickets

Ambrose in Aus - 92 series - Avg 16 : 33 wickets
Holding in Eng - 76 series - Avg 12 : 28 wickets
Roberts in Eng - 76 series - Avg 19 : 28 wickets
Walsh in SA - 98 series - Avg 18 : 22 wickets

--------------------------------------
Lilee in Eng - 72 series - Avg 17 : 31 wickets
Harris in Eng - 13 series - Avg 19 : 24 wickets
Johnson in SA - 13 series - Avg 17 : 22 wickets
-------------------------------------

Bumrah in Aus - 24 series - Avg 12 : 31 wickets [ ongoing , but we can update numbers ]
Bumrah in Aus - 18 series - Avg 17 : 21 wickets

-------------------------------------

IK in Eng - 82 series - Avg 18 : 21 wickets


------------------------------------


Some noteworthy series performance is not here, like Hadlee in Aus, because when I looked it came when host team was not among the top 4 in W/L in 5 calender years before the series. If I miss any, please point out and we will make this list longer after making sure that host team was among the top 4 sides before the series.

I may have missed some names.
Click to expand...

But Australia over the last decade have lost consistently to India and South Africa at home, so their not a dominant force at home .
 
ikky47 said:
That is an ATG series, think Pak were unlucky to draw that series 1-1. I think that was probably Imran's best away tour as a pacer
Click to expand...
Yes, it will go down as his best series for sure because WI was the best team at that time.
 
Buffet said:
Updated list:


List of ATG away series for pacers - 20 wickets with sub 20 Avg - against top 4 sides

------------------------------------------

Marshall in Aus - 82 series - Avg 19 : 28 wickets
Marshall in Eng - 84 series - Avg 18 : 24 wickets

Garner in Eng - 80 series - Avg 14 : 26 wickets
Garner in Eng - 84 series - Avg 18 : 29 wickets

Ambrose in Aus - 92 series - Avg 16 : 33 wickets
Holding in Eng - 76 series - Avg 12 : 28 wickets
Roberts in Eng - 76 series - Avg 19 : 28 wickets
Walsh in SA - 98 series - Avg 18 : 22 wickets

--------------------------------------
Lilee in Eng - 72 series - Avg 17 : 31 wickets
Harris in Eng - 13 series - Avg 19 : 24 wickets
Johnson in SA - 13 series - Avg 17 : 22 wickets
-------------------------------------

Bumrah in Aus - 24 series - Avg 12 : 31 wickets [ ongoing , but we can update numbers ]
Bumrah in Aus - 18 series - Avg 17 : 21 wickets

-------------------------------------

IK in Eng - 82 series - Avg 18 : 21 wickets
IK in WI - 87 series - Avg 18 : 23 wickets

------------------------------------
Click to expand...

Imran lost 3 years from 82 -83 onwards when he was at peak. I'm sure he would have broken all sorts of records
 
ikky47 said:
Surprised that Steyn did not have an ATG series away or Mcgrath
Click to expand...
Steyn has actually got lots of 25/26 averaging series which is very good in his era of flat tracks.

Steyn's average would be 20-ish if he played in any other era.
 
aboveandbeyond said:
But Australia over the last decade have lost consistently to India and South Africa at home, so their not a dominant force at home .
Click to expand...

Not sure what you mean by not dominant at home. Just because Bumrah and co have bowled well in Aus consistently, we can't say that Aus team have not been a dominant home team.

Since comment is about Bumrah, after his debute - if you take all other teams, except India, Aus has W/L of 20 with batting scoring 45 runs per wickets with 1 loss in 7 years.


AusD.jpg



You can also include India and keeping 5 years period to keep it consitent with thread,

At home W/L for all teams in the last 5 years:

1735936598622.png

No matter which way you look, Aus has been a dominant test team at home.
 
ikky47 said:
Surprised that Steyn did not have an ATG series away or Mcgrath
Click to expand...
Issue with Steyn - he played in most flat era. Sometime hosts prepared flat just to counter him on top of that. He has some great series but avg was high and it did not make into this list. He had some series changing performances against good teams. Yah, it's a drawback of putting list with cut off, but I wanted to keep it consistent for all eras and not get into avg adjustment.

McGrath had some great series in Eng and last part of 90s in WI, but none of those team appeared in the top 4 in W/L in previous 5 calendar years. His best series against top 4 sides came in Ind/SA but it was 12-17 wickets so did not make into this list.

I think ATG away series against top side is going to be hard for most bowlers. For example, McGrath's playing days SA, Aus, INd and Pak were the top 4 based on entire career. McGrath had just one 5-fers in Asia so he was limited in running through sides in Asian conditions and 2 out of 3 oppositions were from Asia. Similar thing may play for other bowlers so it's not going to be easy to have too many bowlers having ATG away series against top sides. Many will still have great series which falls a bit short.

Sure, it's a drawback of any such lists and I am aware of it. Kept it consistent across eras and not surprised to see very few names in 30-35 years I have watched cricket. I do see lots of great WI bowlers appearing here. It must have been very hard for opposition to face them together. Not sure how many games they got to paly as a unit. I did not see them but they stand out.
 
Buffet said:
Issue with Steyn - he played in most flat era. Sometime hosts prepared flat just to counter him on top of that. He has some great series but avg was high and it did not make into this list. He had some series changing performances against good teams. Yah, it's a drawback of putting list with cut off, but I wanted to keep it consistent for all eras and not get into avg adjustment.

McGrath had some great series in Eng and last part of 90s in WI, but none of those team appeared in the top 4 in W/L in previous 5 calendar years. His best series against top 4 sides came in Ind/SA but it was 12-17 wickets so did not make into this list.

I think ATG away series against top side is going to be hard for most bowlers. For example, McGrath's playing days SA, Aus, INd and Pak were the top 4 based on entire career. McGrath had just one 5-fers in Asia so he was limited in running through sides in Asian conditions and 2 out of 3 oppositions were from Asia. Similar thing may play for other bowlers so it's not going to be easy to have too many bowlers having ATG away series against top sides. Many will still have great series which falls a bit short.

Sure, it's a drawback of any such lists and I am aware of it. Kept it consistent across eras and not surprised to see very few names in 30-35 years I have watched cricket. I do see lots of great WI bowlers appearing here. It must have been very hard for opposition to face them together. Not sure how many games they got to paly as a unit. I did not see them but they stand out.
Click to expand...
Would have thought McGrath would have done better in SA considering he never lost a series there in his playing days, the 2000s and early 10s did see a lot of flat tracks!

So the only pacers with ATG away series in terms of wickets and averages on multiple occasions at the top opposition are Marshall, Garner, Imran and Bumrah? That is pretty interesting, the WI bowling Unit from the late 70s to the mid 90s have had lots of ATG's. Those 4 pacers above would make for a very good bowling attack in a test 11
 
ikky47 said:
Would have thought McGrath would have done better in SA considering he never lost a series there in his playing days, the 2000s and early 10s did see a lot of flat tracks!
Click to expand...

McGrath 3 series in SA:

4 wickets - Avg 42
13 wickets - Avg 22
12 wickets - Avg 18

Taken together, 29 wickets at avg 23 and SR 63

I highlighted AVG and SR to show that he was economical, but did not really to run through sides. No bowler with SR of mid 60s in any venues is likely to have ATG series in that venue. Johnson, Cummins and Lee have good SR in SA. No surprise to see Johnson having an ATG series in SA and appearing in the list. I don't think you can pick enough wickets or run through sides with poor SR despite having a good avg. Others are likely to pick up wickets before you and that's how Aus won in SA. His best series in SA has 12 wickets so long wy to go for 20 wickets cut off.

That's SA and in Asia he has just 1 5-fers in Asia. So pretty hard to have ATG series with these limitations.
 
How do you miss Imran against India in the 1982/83 series? 40 wickets at 13.95 in 6 Tests. Not to mention Pakistan won that series 3-0.
 
ikky47 said:
So the only pacers with ATG away series in terms of wickets and averages on multiple occasions at the top opposition are Marshall, Garner, Imran and Bumrah? That is pretty interesting, the WI bowling Unit from the late 70s to the mid 90s have had lots of ATG's. Those 4 pacers above would make for a very good bowling attack in a test 11
Click to expand...

It would be a fearsome attack for sure.
 
Steyn from the 2008 India series is a decent shout imo. 15 wickets at 20.2. For me, it is the greatest performance by a visiting pacer in Asia in the modern era. He was the biggest reason they drew that series. His spell in Nagpur in particular was legendary.

You have a Steyn DP too so I would have thought you would mention that. :p
 
RedwoodOriginal said:
Steyn from the 2008 India series is a decent shout imo. 15 wickets at 20.2. For me, it is the greatest performance by a visiting pacer in Asia in the modern era. He was the biggest reason they drew that series. His spell in Nagpur in particular was legendary.

You have a Steyn DP too so I would have thought you would mention that. :p
Click to expand...
Oh, I won't forget his some of spells in India, Aus and Eng. I was trying to keep it consistent and simple.

I am sure, we have instances of some bowlers having great series who have may be 18-19 wickets or like you said avg of 20-21. Some of those series may be better than some series I listed above. Also, this cut off of top 4 sides does not mean that some series for lower sides can not be ATG away series. I was tyring to keep it simple with some objective criterion.

Based on your post, I thought I missed IK one series, but it got sorted. i am sure I am missing some names. As we find more, we can add them. I went opposition by opposition, but may be looking for ususal suspects would have been easier.
 
Buffet said:
McGrath 3 series in SA:

4 wickets - Avg 42
13 wickets - Avg 22
12 wickets - Avg 18

Taken together, 29 wickets at avg 23 and SR 63

I highlighted AVG and SR to show that he was economical, but did not really to run through sides. No bowler with SR of mid 60s in any venues is likely to have ATG series in that venue. Johnson, Cummins and Lee have good SR in SA. No surprise to see Johnson having an ATG series in SA and appearing in the list. I don't think you can pick enough wickets or run through sides with poor SR despite having a good avg. Others are likely to pick up wickets before you and that's how Aus won in SA. His best series in SA has 12 wickets so long wy to go for 20 wickets cut off.

That's SA and in Asia he has just 1 5-fers in Asia. So pretty hard to have ATG series with these limitations.
Click to expand...

Come on guys. McGrath was part of a champion Attack. Warne , peak Gillespie, McDermott as well. For me both Mcgrath and Marshall should be judged by not only stats. They were both a part of very Strong attacks. Any individual achievement by them should be judged greater
 
ikky47 said:
Still a very very impressive series, but Imrans best is probably the 88 series in WI due to who they were playing and the magnitude of the opposition
Click to expand...
I agree. That performance by Pakistan in general has to go down as one of the all-time great away performances by any team in the history of test cricket. Some might consider this statement hyperbole but I don't think it is considering the quality of the opposition. And we 100% would have won that series if it wasn't for the blatantly biased umpiring.
 
aboveandbeyond said:
Come on guys. McGrath was part of a champion Attack. Warne , peak Gillespie, McDermott as well. For me both Mcgrath and Marshall should be judged by not only stats. They were both a part of very Strong attacks. Any individual achievement by them should be judged greater
Click to expand...
Mcgrath is one of my fav bowlers but Marshall does have such performances inspite of such bowlers in his team.
 
ikky47 said:
I think Imran also had another good series in India in 1979-1980 his average was sub 20 but he just misses the cut off with 19 wickets
Click to expand...
India falls out of top 4 with W/L of 0.5 for previous 5 calendar years. Also, I wouldn't have noticed due to having filter of 20 wikcets. But it ws a very good series by IK. Ik in peak seems to have lots of great series.

Actually the way he improved after his first 3rd of career as bowler should be motivation for anyone. You got to willing to do hard yard and you can improve. Not just rely on talent. IK's improvement was huge and I wish he had not missed some years then. Anyway, great pacers turning it on for 40-50 tests is enough to leave a huge mark in history. He gets under the radar for many because people discuss him as a gun all rounder, but he was a gun test pacer.
 
Buffet said:
India falls out of top 4 with W/L of 0.5 for previous 5 calendar years. Also, I wouldn't have noticed due to having filter of 20 wikcets. But it ws a very good series by IK. Ik in peak seems to have lots of great series.

Actually the way he improved after his first 3rd of career as bowler should be motivation for anyone. You got to willing to do hard yard and you can improve. Not just rely on talent. IK's improvement was huge and I wish he had not missed some years then. Anyway, great pacers turning it on for 40-50 tests is enough to leave a huge mark in history. He gets under the radar for many because people discuss him as a gun all rounder, but he was a gun test pacer.
Click to expand...

Imran remodeled his entire action to enable him to bowl with genuine pace from a military medium dobber. Astonishing improvement
 
Guys I don't want to be a party pooper on the WI series of 1988 but the test that Pakistan won and Imran got a 11 wickets was played without Windies captain and the great Viv Richards.

Sir Viv was the greatest so I have to say he didn’t play the test along with Marshall and that’s why Pak could win that test coz very next test both Viv and Marshall returned and they drew (Viv Mom) and then WI won the third(Marshal Mom).
 
JaDed said:
Mcgrath is one of my fav bowlers but Marshall does have such performances inspite of such bowlers in his team.
Click to expand...
List above is dominated by WI greats who played in same periods. I don't think McGrath's lack of ATG series against top side has much to do with him having great bowlers bowling with him.

We need to look at each 5 years to be consistent, but over his career, Ind/Pak/SA were his top oppostions. May be SL also in middle some time. But McGrath has just 1 5-fer in Asia. It's less likely to have ATG series in venues if you can't pick up 5-fers. Imagine flipping it and an Asian bowler having just one 5-fer outside Asia. That would stand out. I think it was a limitation for McGrath and in SA he has poor SR so hard to take too many wickets. McGrath was too good in keeping it tight and making it hard despite his limitations. That's what made him so great and I see him as top 3 test bowlers.
 
Buffet said:
List above is dominated by WI greats who played in same periods. I don't think McGrath's lack of ATG series against top side has much to do with him having great bowlers bowling with him.

We need to look at each 5 years to be consistent, but over his career, Ind/Pak/SA were his top oppostions. May be SL also in middle some time. But McGrath has just 1 5-fer in Asia. It's less likely to have ATG series in venues if you can't pick up 5-fers. Imagine flipping it and an Asian bowler having just one 5-fer outside Asia. That would stand out. I think it was a limitation for McGrath and in SA he has poor SR so hard to take too many wickets. McGrath was too good in keeping it tight and making it hard despite his limitations. That's what made him so great and I see him as top 3 test bowlers.
Click to expand...
My assumption is that the overall Sr Avg combo of Mcgrath was consistent compared to other greats after 1999.(standard deviation)
 
aboveandbeyond said:
Imran remodeled his entire action to enable him to bowl with genuine pace from a military medium dobber. Astonishing improvement
Click to expand...
Yah, an ideal role model for anyone willing to do hard yard. I see lots of noise about talent talent, you got to do hard yard. That's what make you a legend. There is no short cut at highest level in any field.
 
JaDed said:
Guys I don't want to be a party pooper on the WI series of 1988 but the test that Pakistan won and Imran got a 11 wickets was played without Windies captain and the great Viv Richards.

Sir Viv was the greatest so I have to say he didn’t play the test along with Marshall and that’s why Pak could win that test coz very next test both Viv and Marshall returned and they drew (Viv Mom) and then WI won the third(Marshal Mom).
Click to expand...
All of Holding, Garner and Roberts had retired by then. In the 1st and only Test Pakistan won, neither one of Viv or Marshall played.
 
2008 Aus and 2008 India were Steyn’s best performance.
 
Hitman said:
All of Holding, Garner and Roberts had retired by then.
Click to expand...
They had excellent replacements Walsh and Ambrose but Marshall and Viv were still at peak then so them not playing mattered as that’s the test WI lost.

Man I just realised how much I miss even the Windies of 1990s I can only imagine how awesome it must to watch them in 80s, sad we didn’t have HD then.
 
JaDed said:
My assumption is that the overall Sr Avg combo of Mcgrath was consistent compared to other greats after 1999.(standard deviation)
Click to expand...
His avg was always good because he was mostly spot on. But if you are talking about after 1999 then not sure how to compare him with other greats. Till Steyn appeared, no similar level greats played.

Mcgrath played 10 tests in SA/Ind/Pak/SL combined after 1999 and SR was 54 - avg 19 and 1 5-fer in those venues taken together. I not checking where he played how many, just looking over all. Steyn got into SR of 41 in away in those venues but highe average with 5 5-fers away means not counitng SA for Steyn. I will never take McGrath over Steyn if I need to win in Asia. One could run through sides in Asia and other couldn't.

Wasim/Ambrose/Donald were done by then so we don't have comparison for that period.
 
JaDed said:
They had excellent replacements Walsh and Ambrose but Marshall and Viv were still at peak then so them not playing mattered as that’s the test WI lost.

Man I just realised how much I miss even the Windies of 1990s I can only imagine how awesome it must to watch them in 80s, sad we didn’t have HD then.
Click to expand...
Walsh was plain inexperienced and Ambrose had played about 3 Test matches before that series.

Actually, Viv was declining by that time.
 
JaDed said:
Guys I don't want to be a party pooper on the WI series of 1988 but the test that Pakistan won and Imran got a 11 wickets was played without Windies captain and the great Viv Richards.

Sir Viv was the greatest so I have to say he didn’t play the test along with Marshall and that’s why Pak could win that test coz very next test both Viv and Marshall returned and they drew (Viv Mom) and then WI won the third(Marshal Mom).
Click to expand...

Windies still had high quality performers.
 
Hitman said:
Walsh was plain inexperienced and Ambrose had played about 3 Test matches before that series.

Actually, Viv was declining by that time.
Click to expand...
Yes but his captaincy was still top notch, he ever lost a series as a captain, so I doubt he would had given up on that test esp if he had Marshall too.
 
Buffet said:
His avg was always good because he was mostly spot on. But if you are talking about after 1999 then not sure how to compare him with other greats. Till Steyn appeared, no similar level greats played.

Mcgrath played 10 tests in SA/Ind/Pak/SL combined after 1999 and SR was 54 - avg 19 and 1 5-fer in those venues taken together. I not checking where he played how many, just looking over all. Steyn got into SR of 41 in away in those venues but highe average with 5 5-fers away means not counitng SA for Steyn. I will never take McGrath over Steyn if I need to win in Asia. One could run through sides in Asia and other couldn't.

Wasim/Ambrose/Donald were done by then so we don't have comparison for that period.
Click to expand...

We have to remember though, every attack has different game plans and attack modes.

South africa in general relied on Genuine speed and skill sets of their quick bowlers which was irrelevant of where they played.

As for Australia and Mcgrath away from home, they always had a balanced attack where the attack mode was according to conditions. But in General, after the new ball warne was their attack mode for majority of the oldish ball .
 
Steyn has had a couple of phenomenal series in India which is why he's respected in India compared to some other so-called ATGs. But it might have been just 2 tests, so number of wickets may have been low
 
aboveandbeyond said:
We have to remember though, every attack has different game plans and attack modes.

South africa in general relied on Genuine speed and skill sets of their quick bowlers which was irrelevant of where they played.

As for Australia and Mcgrath away from home, they always had a balanced attack where the attack mode was according to conditions. But in General, after the new ball warne was their attack mode for majority of the oldish ball .
Click to expand...
Noted.

But he bowled enough in SA/Ind/Pak/SL - amost 900 overs. He bowled 39 overs per test in his career and bowled 37 overs in these venues per test so it wasn't much different. His SR was 61 with 3 5-fers. I don't think it was due to mode being different for Aus attack. I can understand that logic if he was striking quickly and didn't bowl enough, but SR of 60 plus makes it hard to have ATG series in these venues for anyone. That was the point I was trying to convey.

These were his top oppositions. You can see that he kept it tight and his ER was similar but SR drastically went up. I personally don't think that any bowler can have ATG series if SR is north of 60. Simply said, you are picking 1 wicket after every 10 overs. To pick 20 wickets you got to bowl 200 overs. In longer series with 4 tests, you got to then bowl 50 overs in each test. For 3 test series, you got to bowl 66 overs per test. That's not happening and that's why I think it's unlikely for any bowler to get ATG series if SR is north of 60.

To put it in context, Bumrah has bowled only 140 odd overs so far and we are already in 5th test.


McGrath in SA/Ind/Pak/Sl:

1735946241822.png
 
pillionrider said:
Steyn has had a couple of phenomenal series in India which is why he's respected in India compared to some other so-called ATGs. But it might have been just 2 tests, so number of wickets may have been low
Click to expand...
Yah, two full series he played in India with only 3 and 2 tests:

He had 15 wickets at 20 and 11 wickets at 20 avg - In both series he picked up 5-fers.

SA got shorter series, so you can't pick up too many wickets.

Anyway, I am familiar with Steyn spells due to watching almost all games he played. That's why I rate him very high. All condition bowler who could run through sides. A rare quality.
 
Updated list after series is done:


List of ATG away series for pacers - 20 wickets with sub 20 Avg - against top 4 sides

------------------------------------------

Marshall in Aus - 82 series - Avg 19 : 28 wickets
Marshall in Eng - 84 series - Avg 18 : 24 wickets

Garner in Eng - 80 series - Avg 14 : 26 wickets
Garner in Eng - 84 series - Avg 18 : 29 wickets

Ambrose in Aus - 92 series - Avg 16 : 33 wickets
Holding in Eng - 76 series - Avg 12 : 28 wickets
Roberts in Eng - 76 series - Avg 19 : 28 wickets
Walsh in SA - 98 series - Avg 18 : 22 wickets

--------------------------------------
Lilee in Eng - 72 series - Avg 17 : 31 wickets
Harris in Eng - 13 series - Avg 19 : 24 wickets
Johnson in SA - 13 series - Avg 17 : 22 wickets
-------------------------------------

Bumrah in Aus - 24 series - Avg 13 : 32 wickets
Bumrah in Aus - 18 series - Avg 17 : 21 wickets

-------------------------------------

IK in Eng - 82 series - Avg 18 : 21 wickets
IK in WI - 87 series - Avg 18 : 23 wickets

------------------------------------
 
What prompted me to open this thread is having the same view as Ponting,


-----------------------------------

Ponting on Bumrah: "Probably the best series of fast bowling I've ever seen"​


1736085361287.png

"No doubt, it's probably the best series of fast bowling I've ever seen. Yes, they had good conditions, the fast bowlers, for most of this series. But when you watched him (Bumrah) bowl compared to anyone else in the series, he made batting look so much harder,” Ponting said.

“There's a lot of quality batting in that Australian top-order as well but he made all of them at different times look silly,” he added.

www.icc-cricket.com

Ponting on Bumrah: "Probably the best series of fast bowling I've ever seen"

The Indian pace spearhead returned with 32 wickets from the five Tests in Australia, finishing as the Player of the Series.
www.icc-cricket.com www.icc-cricket.com

-----------------------------------------

Again, We may be missing names here. If anyone remember some names missing, please point it out. We can check and then make this list better.

I did not look for legends by legends and only looked as host country so easy to miss.
 
Buffet said:
What prompted me to open this thread is having the same view as Ponting,


-----------------------------------

Ponting on Bumrah: "Probably the best series of fast bowling I've ever seen"​


View attachment 149345



“There's a lot of quality batting in that Australian top-order as well but he made all of them at different times look silly,” he added.
Click to expand...
Normally pacers hunt as an unit and reap awards like Roberts, Holding in 76 series.Sometimes like a bond goes for the head of the snake imp wickets of hayden,gilly , ponting .mcgrath used to do the same .rest of the pacers will take care of others.in this case Bumrah took 32 wickets and other pacers 40 wickets. Bumrah kept on coming like Rocky Balboa in all the situations. He missed the most spiciest pitch all together otherwise second innings should have been very interesting. Perth match will stay as a legend as much ambrose 7/1 show.Ambrose did it in one match but bumrah doing it in entire series made it extra ordinary.
 
Mark Waugh shares the similar views as Ponting.

-------------------------------------------


“This was as good a fast bowling as I have ever seen since I have been around cricket fields." - Mark Waugh

“Everyone thought Jasprit Bumrah would be a massive threat, but I don’t think anyone thought he could bowl to the level he has bowled this series,” Waugh said.

1736089211298.png

www.foxsports.com.au

‘Could have been a different story’: Legend’s huge Bumrah call on day series was decided

‘Could have been a different story’: Legend’s huge Bumrah call on day series was decided
www.foxsports.com.au www.foxsports.com.au

--------------------------------------
 
Mamoon said:
How many threads do we need to say that Bumrah is a good bowler who had a good series?
Click to expand...
If you ask these questions, you are only a jealous pakistani (according to a few padhosis here).
 
Mark Waugh shares the similar views as Ponting.
Buffet said:
-------------------------------------------


“This was as good a fast bowling as I have ever seen since I have been around cricket fields." - Mark Waugh

“Everyone thought Jasprit Bumrah would be a massive threat, but I don’t think anyone thought he could bowl to the level he has bowled this series,” Waugh said.

View attachment 149348

www.foxsports.com.au

‘Could have been a different story’: Legend’s huge Bumrah call on day series was decided

‘Could have been a different story’: Legend’s huge Bumrah call on day series was decided
www.foxsports.com.au www.foxsports.com.au

--------------------------------------
Click to expand...
He had a good series, but it is funny how we are forced to ignore the fact that he was also bowling to a batting unit that wouldn’t even feature in the top 100 batting units in Test history.

Washed up Khawaja, two debutant openers, an out of form Labuschagne, a Smith who is no longer the batsman he was but Bumrah still couldn’t stop him from scoring two series defining hundreds.

Then you had the likes of Marsh who was a joke, another debutant and Alex Carey who is an average batsman.

Travis Head is an aggressor who takes a lot of risks, and Bumrah as usual couldn’t stop him from decimating India who also ended up with two series defining hundreds.

In addition to this, bowling all-rounders/tailenders like Cummins, Lyon and Boland etc. all scored runs that tilted the series in Australia’s favor.

What miracles did Bumrah perform in this series (apart from stat padding) against one of the worst batting units Australia will ever put up in Test cricket?
 
Mamoon said:
Mark Waugh shares the similar views as Ponting.

He had a good series, but it is funny how we are forced to ignore the fact that he was also bowling to a batting unit that wouldn’t even feature in the top 100 batting units in Test history.

Washed up Khawaja, two debutant openers, an out of form Labuschagne, a Smith who is no longer the batsman he was but Bumrah still couldn’t stop him from scoring two series defining hundreds.

Then you had the likes of Marsh who was a joke, another debutant and Alex Carey who is an average batsman.

Travis Head is an aggressor who takes a lot of risks, and Bumrah as usual couldn’t stop him from decimating India who also ended up with two series defining hundreds.

In addition to this, bowling all-rounders/tailenders like Cummins, Lyon and Boland etc. all scored runs that tilted the series in Australia’s favor.

What miracles did Bumrah perform in this series (apart from stat padding) against one of the worst batting units Australia will ever put up in Test cricket?
Click to expand...

Agree. Even with combined India, Australia, England batting line ups , i only see Root , Brooks, and Head as quality operators.

Rest are either washed up hasbeens, or not good enough
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

Buffet
Joe Root versus Hashim Amla in the Test format
2
Replies
158
Views
3K
atreus
atreus
D
Congratulations to New Zealand for a historic Test series win against India in India
Replies
77
Views
1K
FearlessRoar
FearlessRoar
Buffet
The role of the Ashes Test series in defining the legacy of England and Australia players
Replies
21
Views
368
Buffet
Buffet
MenInG
POTW: Buffet
Replies
21
Views
354
mominsaigol
mominsaigol
Buffet
[VIDEOS] Why did Waqar Younis have such an ordinary record against top sides?
3 4 5
Replies
334
Views
11K
Fanboy375
Fanboy375
Back
Top