Are Nathan Lyon and Moeen Ali the perfect role model off-spinners today?

[Savak]

Ever since the ICC cracked down on bad bowling actions with the 15 degree rule, it has been blamed for diminishing off spinners and reducing the effectiveness of off spinners in the game.

I believe any upcoming offspinner should take a look at Nathan Lyon's off spinning action or even Moin Ali's off spinning action. Both get plenty of off spin on their deliveries.

If both these guys can somehow develop a straighter delivery or the one which goes away without too much noticeable change in action, flight or speed, they will become even more dangerous.

 

[Mamoon]

Absolutely. Lyon and Moeen are the best and second best off-spinners since Swann. It doesn't mean much though, Lyon is very good but not elite level, and Moeen is bog average but at least he is not a javelin thrower.

Nonetheless, upcoming spinners should look up to these two and mimic their bowling actions.

 

[babajee]

Absolutely. Lyon and Moeen are the best and second best off-spinners since Swann. It doesn't mean much though, Lyon is very good but not elite level, and Moeen is bog average but at least he is not a javelin thrower.

Nonetheless, upcoming spinners should look up to these two and mimic their bowling actions.

Thought you considered Ashwin as the best?

 

[Savak]

Absolutely. Lyon and Moeen are the best and second best off-spinners since Swann. It doesn't mean much though, Lyon is very good but not elite level, and Moeen is bog average but at least he is not a javelin thrower.

Nonetheless, upcoming spinners should look up to these two and mimic their bowling actions.

Do you feel they can bowl a legitimate doosra with their bowling actions. Lyon is improving

 

[Mamoon]

Thought you considered Ashwin as the best?

I am talking about their actions. Ashwin has a clean action but Lyon has a textbook off-spinner action.

 

[Mamoon]

Do you feel they can bowl a legitimate doosra with their bowling actions. Lyon is improving

I don't think anyone can successfully bowl the doosra with a legitimate action. It will be easy for the batsman to read out of the hand. Lyon doesn't need one either - he has developed a lot over the last couple of years, and seems to really understand his bowling now.

 

[shaz619]

[MENTION=131701]Mamoon[/MENTION] Moeen's mentor and tutor has been Saeed Ajmal though, he would tell you that he has been most influential in his initial rise as an offie due to their affiliation at Worcestershire. Mo is nothing special away with the ball but devastating at home and especially against non-asian teams, in the end he is learning his trade at the Test level on the job which is tough but thus far he has been incredibly valuable overall for the England team, very few would have predicted that he'd have more then 100 wickets by now.

With regards to his recent performances, his preparation for the series has not been ideal and he is not 100% fit so if England drop him we can't really complain plus his bowling is of little use then again options in general are thin, the team comes first but I don't think Joe or management will make that decision because he's the life and soul of their dressing room, they're all very close and will back each other; don't think ENG will come back now but if they manage to win a Test it would be a big deal.

 

[MenInG]

[MENTION=131701]Mamoon[/MENTION] Moeen's mentor and tutor has been Saeed Ajmal though, he would tell you that he has been most influential in his initial rise as an offie due to their affiliation at Worcestershire. Mo is nothing special away with the ball but devastating at home and especially against non-asian teams, in the end he is learning his trade at the Test level on the job which is tough but thus far he has been incredibly valuable overall for the England team, very few would have predicted that he'd have more then 100 wickets by now.

With regards to his recent performances, his preparation for the series has not been ideal and he is not 100% fit so if England drop him we can't really complain plus his bowling is of little use then again options in general are thin, the team comes first but I don't think Joe or management will make that decision because he's the life and soul of their dressing room, they're all very close and will back each other; don't think ENG will come back now but if they manage to win a Test it would be a big deal.

 

[shaz619]

View attachment 77394

He helped Mo big time, people insult Saeed but he had a very high off spinners IQ. It was during the period were Saeed was spending time at Worcestershire that Mo became more of a force with the ball, he still saw himself as a bat that bowled a bit but would go onto become one of the best all rounders in the world.

 

[MenInG]

He helped Mo big time, people insult Saeed but he had a very high off spinners IQ. It was during the period were Saeed was spending time at Worcestershire that Mo became more of a force with the ball, he still saw himself as a bat that bowled a bit but would go onto become one of the best all rounders in the world.

People who insult him dont know him

 

[babajee]

People who insult him dont know him

Exactly

It’s pathetic how people who don’t even know the guy question his moral integrity

 

[MenInG]

Exactly

It’s pathetic how people who don’t even know the guy question his moral integrity

Because sitting behind a keyboard, its easy.

 

[wrongun]

Ever since the ICC cracked down on bad bowling actions with the 15 degree rule, it has been blamed for diminishing off spinners and reducing the effectiveness of off spinners in the game.

I believe any upcoming offspinner should take a look at Nathan Lyon's off spinning action or even Moin Ali's off spinning action. Both get plenty of off spin on their deliveries.

If both these guys can somehow develop a straighter delivery or the one which goes away without too much noticeable change in action, flight or speed, they will become even more dangerous.

You call them model off-spinners but then say they need to add the doosra...
Both of them have a straight delivery.

It is the very fact that they DO NOT bowl the doosra which allows them to develop the action which provides revs on the ball, drift, dip, bounce, turn. Even IF they could bowl a legal doosra, they would have to change their actions to hide & deliver it- and thus lose the main art. They would also have to bowl totally different lines, or else the doors stands out like a sore thumb as the only one pitched where it does etc.

Harbajan was twice the bowler in series where he had been warned off the doosra & just concentrated on off spin. The doosra ruins a spinners chances of developing an action with enough grunt to turn outside asia.

*Murali the exception had phenomenal wrist & shoulder flexibility- could touch his thumb to his wrist & rotate wrist fully while doing so, he was in fact more of a wrist spinner.

 

[Convict]

Moeen is a useful allrounder and second spinner but he can't lead an attack. The gulf between him and Lyon this series has been massive.

 

[Rana]

Moeen is pretty much a darter. He bowls the flattest off-spin I have ever seen from a first choice spinner. He is probably the best spin bowling batsman I have seen though after Shakib..it can be argued that moeen is a better batsman than he is

 

[kingusama92]

Lyon is a fantastic spinner and could become unstoppable if he learned to bowl a proper top spinner instead of that faster one he uses.

 

[blue_champion]

Exactly

It’s pathetic how people who don’t even know the guy question his moral integrity

No one is questioning his moral integrity from his personal life pov...he might be the most charitable human being known to man kind but he was banned for having an illegal action also called chucking in cricketing terms...he came back and was never the same with a clean action,so cricket fans think he took a short cut...how difficult is that to interpret?

I hope you realize that calling him a chucker is attack on his cricketing talent.

 

[giri26]

Yes both have very classical actions but again Lyon is in a different planet to Moeen in terms of skill. Moeen Ali is at best the 5th or 6th bowler in the X1 and cannot be a main spinner for his side. Yes he did get loads of wickets against India in 2014 but unless the opposition absolutely is poor, he will not pick you too many wickets.

 

[BunnyRabbit]

Moeen has a beautiful bowling action.

Australia has traditionally been a poor place for visiting spinners especially the offies, so no surprises about Moeen's performance.

Lyon is not as good as people make him out to be tbh. Yes, he has developed a lot in last 2-3 years but still don't think he will be able to take a lot of wickets on flat Asian surfaces(not rank turners he was served with in India and Bangladesh). Yasir, Herath and Ashwin can run through lineups on flat surfaces of subcontinent and WI as well.

 

[The_Odd_One]

England should have played Rashid who can spin the ball more.

 

[Big Mac]

England should have played Rashid who can spin the ball more.

Rashid is crap though.

 

[kingusama92]

Moeen has a beautiful bowling action.

Australia has traditionally been a poor place for visiting spinners especially the offies, so no surprises about Moeen's performance.

Lyon is not as good as people make him out to be tbh. Yes, he has developed a lot in last 2-3 years but still don't think he will be able to take a lot of wickets on flat Asian surfaces(not rank turners he was served with in India and Bangladesh). Yasir, Herath and Ashwin can run through lineups on flat surfaces of subcontinent and WI as well.

Technically, it's not easy bowling in Australia for offspinners either.

Ashwin averages an appalling 91.00 in 7 Tests.

 

[The_Odd_One]

Rashid is crap though.

He's a better bowler than Moeen.

 

[Big Mac]

He's a better bowler than Moeen.

 

[BunnyRabbit]

Technically, it's not easy bowling in Australia for offspinners either.

Ashwin averages an appalling 91.00 in 7 Tests.

Ashwin actually averages 54 in Tests in Australia

Don't discount the home factor. Every bowler is expected to bowl better at home regardless of the nature of the pitches. Paul Harris being a very average spinner averaged a respectable 34 at home, Maharaj averages a mere 24 at home despite South Africa not being spinner friendly.

Lyon himself admitted to being comfortable bowling at home as it suits his style of bowling and gives some good bounce.

 

[Chrish]

Rise of Lyon has been pretty impressive. Hope it's not short lived.

One really can't predict how spinners will mature, can they? He got not respect from Smith not long ago and all of a sudden he has become their strike bowler.

Also, despite 5 wicket-haul, Cummins and Haz have been comfortably better than starc. He should loose the right to new ball if Cummins' fitness allows him to continue.

 

[kingusama92]

Ashwin actually averages 54 in Tests in Australia

Don't discount the home factor. Every bowler is expected to bowl better at home regardless of the nature of the pitches. Paul Harris being a very average spinner averaged a respectable 34 at home, Maharaj averages a mere 24 at home despite South Africa not being spinner friendly.

Lyon himself admitted to being comfortable bowling at home as it suits his style of bowling and gives some good bounce.

Not sure where I got 91.00 from.

From rubbish to slightly less rubbish then.

That's true but for Ashwin his home conditions would be those flat wickets (assuming everyone does well on raging turners). Holding Lyon to that standard is equally unfair.

 

[BunnyRabbit]

Not sure where I got 91.00 from.

From rubbish to slightly less rubbish then.

That's true but for Ashwin his home conditions would be those flat wickets (assuming everyone does well on raging turners). Holding Lyon to that standard is equally unfair.

Lyon is very good, but not as good as the other spinners of the same generation.

Comparing spinners is really difficult because India and Pakistan were the two best teams of playing spin in the last 3-4 years and their premier spinners never got to bowl their batters or even each other.

If Lyon had faced Aussie batters, his average would be 1-2 points even lower than now.

 

[Convict]

Moeen has a beautiful bowling action.

Australia has traditionally been a poor place for visiting spinners especially the offies, so no surprises about Moeen's performance.

Lyon is not as good as people make him out to be tbh. Yes, he has developed a lot in last 2-3 years but still don't think he will be able to take a lot of wickets on flat Asian surfaces(not rank turners he was served with in India and Bangladesh). Yasir, Herath and Ashwin can run through lineups on flat surfaces of subcontinent and WI as well.

And average 100 with the ball in Australia

 

[BunnyRabbit]

And average 100 with the ball in Australia

Well everyone has his own preferences.
In australia you can win without a spinner taking a lot of wickets. In subcontinent, you simply can't.

 

[Convict]

Well everyone has his own preferences.
In australia you can win without a spinner taking a lot of wickets. In subcontinent, you simply can't.

This is why Ashwin, Yasir and Herath have played in so many winning tests in Australia right?

If you're going to neg Lyon for not taking wickets in Asia then you have to acknowledge that all those Asian spinners have failed in Australia.

 

[BunnyRabbit]

This is why Ashwin, Yasir and Herath have played in so many winning tests in Australia right?

If you're going to neg Lyon for not taking wickets in Asia then you have to acknowledge that all those Asian spinners have failed in Australia.

Yes they have been failures in Australia, but you're missing my point.
In Australia, it's the pacers that will win you tests rather than spinners. In subcontinent it's the opposite.
Just because Pakistan and Sri Lankan teams are poor players in Australia, doesn't mean if Herath, Yasir or Ashwin had performed, they would have won.

Plus Herath even took a five fer in a Test in Australia that they lost comprehensively.

Maharaj averaged around 40 in his debut series yet South Africa won both tests he played in.

 

[Mamoon]

[MENTION=131701]Mamoon[/MENTION] Moeen's mentor and tutor has been Saeed Ajmal though, he would tell you that he has been most influential in his initial rise as an offie due to their affiliation at Worcestershire. Mo is nothing special away with the ball but devastating at home and especially against non-asian teams, in the end he is learning his trade at the Test level on the job which is tough but thus far he has been incredibly valuable overall for the England team, very few would have predicted that he'd have more then 100 wickets by now.

With regards to his recent performances, his preparation for the series has not been ideal and he is not 100% fit so if England drop him we can't really complain plus his bowling is of little use then again options in general are thin, the team comes first but I don't think Joe or management will make that decision because he's the life and soul of their dressing room, they're all very close and will back each other; don't think ENG will come back now but if they manage to win a Test it would be a big deal.

Ajmal had a very good bowling brain, there is a reason why he was such a successful chucker. If chucking was easy, there would have been many successful practitioners. Moeen can certainly learn (and has learned) a lot from Ajmal as far as the psyche of bowling is concerned, but I am glad that he is not influenced by his bowling action.

I think Swann should be an even better role model for Moeen than Ajmal. He was a better Test spinner with a crystal clear action, and he can teach Moeen a lot about how to bowl consistently well on English surfaces. Unfortunately, Moeen doesn't seem to be very gifted when it comes to bowling.

He is a natural stroke player and can go far with the bat, but he is never going to become a top quality spinner.

 

[Robert]

I am impressed by Lyon who is outbowling Moeen by miles. He gives it some air, varies pace and gets topspin like Tufnell used to. Moeen is too flat.

 

[MMHS]

Lyon is definitely the best finger spinner and he is heading to ATG status. Moeen has improved lot, but he will never be a genuine spinner who makes XI on bowling merit.

Perfect role model - not sure about Moeen, but Lyon should definitely be. Absolutely clean & perfect bowling action and his tools are conventional offies tools. Our kid Miraz can end up very high as well in this list.

 

[DRsohail]

Lyon is definitely the best finger spinner and he is heading to ATG status. Moeen has improved lot, but he will never be a genuine spinner who makes XI on bowling merit.

Perfect role model - not sure about Moeen, but Lyon should definitely be. Absolutely clean & perfect bowling action and his tools are conventional offies tools. Our kid Miraz can end up very high as well in this list.

SO I know u have been careful .otherwise ........yes miraz has good start but defends on how much bangladesh play test and how it goes,i will definitely take him in my team for that role he is playing.

 

[MMHS]

SO I know u have been careful .otherwise ........yes miraz has good start but defends on how much bangladesh play test and how it goes,i will definitely take him in my team for that role he is playing.

Kid can bowl very good armer with perfect action and his stock ball is a perfect offie; besides he can bat. He has best part of 20 years, therefore I do back him to end up with significant stats

 

[shaz619]

Ajmal had a very good bowling brain, there is a reason why he was such a successful chucker. If chucking was easy, there would have been many successful practitioners. Moeen can certainly learn (and has learned) a lot from Ajmal as far as the psyche of bowling is concerned, but I am glad that he is not influenced by his bowling action.

I think Swann should be an even better role model for Moeen than Ajmal. He was a better Test spinner with a crystal clear action, and he can teach Moeen a lot about how to bowl consistently well on English surfaces. Unfortunately, Moeen doesn't seem to be very gifted when it comes to bowling.

He is a natural stroke player and can go far with the bat, but he is never going to become a top quality spinner.

Moeen can bowl the doosra but it's something which he has taken out of his game and it was the right decision given the scrutiny on off spinners these days, in England we ban mystery spinners and those who have suspect actions at the grass root level of club cricket games; which is great for the current era but I just think cricket is more boring and largely benefits the batsman even though they already have so many advantages already. You will disagree but for me Saeed did not always chuck, he also had a very high cricketing IQ; he'd have been successful even without the doosra.

 

[shaz619]

We also forget how young Nathan Lyon is and spinners tend to age well, he may well finish his career as the greatest off spinner of all time ? [MENTION=79064]MMHS[/MENTION]

 

[MMHS]

We also forget how young Nathan Lyon is and spinners tend to age well, he may well finish his career as the greatest off spinner of all time ? [MENTION=79064]MMHS[/MENTION]

None’ll catch Murali ever. He played for almost 20 years and took about 5.75 wickets/Test including 22/23 10for!!!!! Besides, they are reducing number of Test matches these days.

I think, Lyon’ll end up either side of 500 wickets and he’ll pull his average below 30 - which is great. Among classical offies with perfect action, I think best ever was Prassanna (never seen Laker).

 

[shaz619]

None’ll catch Murali ever. He played for almost 20 years and took about 5.75 wickets/Test including 22/23 10for!!!!! Besides, they are reducing number of Test matches these days.

I think, Lyon’ll end up either side of 500 wickets and he’ll pull his average below 30 - which is great. Among classical offies with perfect action, I think best ever was Prassanna (never seen Laker).

I was referring to classic offies and not Murali although he;s the best without a doubt, not seen much of Prassana and then there is Saqi as well although he had a short run due to injuries

 

[DRsohail]

[MENTION=79064]MMHS[/MENTION] by the way MALik is doing great in BPL.he would have been handy in tests but his batting would have been disappointment....

 

[MMHS]

[MENTION=79064]MMHS[/MENTION] by the way MALik is doing great in BPL.he would have been handy in tests but his batting would have been disappointment....

Not in Test anymore, but Sarfraz should look to use him more for PAK.

I feel, Malik has decided not to get involved in PAK team affairs any more, rather just play his game. Give him ball, he'll bowl, if not - he won't ask for it. He won't complain if he is sent at 7 or 3 - he'll try to serve as per the position. He doesn't mind if he is posted at 1st slip or fine leg ..... one way it's good that it keeps Sarfraz in comfort, but too much disengagement isn't good either.

 

[Hasan123]

Moen isn't a role model for his bowling. His behaviour and attitude on the field is something which youngsters should look at.

Lyon however is a potential role model for his bowling. Has a clean action and also he is capable of being defensive when required . And has learnt how to read batsmen better. I think he will finish as an Australian great.

 

[Syed1]

I fail to understand how such a meetha bowler like Lyon manages to get so many wickets.

 

[Major]

When offspiners were chucking and cheating, this guys were terrible bowlers infront of them.

Now as all the chuckers and cheaters are banned, this guy is one of the best off spinner in cricket.

Have to give it to Lyon.

This is the problem with chucking. Many bowlers like Lyon who were playing club couldn't get to first class level because chuckers like Ajmal were obviously preffered because they got more spin by bending their arm and picking up more wickets.

But glad that in the end we saw justice and the good guys won.

Lyon is the best off spinner in the world one currently.

 

[Nikhil_cric]

Lyon is a brilliant bowler. Only swann gave it a bigger rip than Lyon does, from amongst offspinners who don't chuck. Ashwin was bowling beautifully in 2015-17 period but he doesn't get the same revs on the ball like before.

Moeen is far too inconsistent to be a test class spinner.

 

[Hasan123]

Comparing Moen with Lyon is a insult. Lyon is a potential ATG, Moen is a inconsistent spinner who doesn’t even make his team on bowling merit alone.

 

[Cryin Out Loud]

When offspiners were chucking and cheating, this guys were terrible bowlers infront of them.

Now as all the chuckers and cheaters are banned, this guy is one of the best off spinner in cricket.

Have to give it to Lyon.

This is the problem with chucking. Many bowlers like Lyon who were playing club couldn't get to first class level because chuckers like Ajmal were obviously preffered because they got more spin by bending their arm and picking up more wickets.

But glad that in the end we saw justice and the good guys won.

Lyon is the best off spinner in the world one currently.

The bolded part- bang on. I even wonder how many offies (or even other spinners) in Pakistan lost the chance to showcase their talent and rise because of the encouragement to chuckers.