Are US/UK Western nations 'The Good Guys' in history?

[KingKhanWC]

Most people in the west are decent people even if many are brainwashed. However its very difficult to argue the western governments throughout modern history have been the good guys. Its up to us living in the west to stand up against these evil policies and try to change the governments and their policies.

Does anyone believe US/UK and west (as governments) have been the good guys? This is not to suggest other empires or nations are good but I dont live there.

 

[KingKhanWC]

A few other facts.

The only nation to use nukes(twice) USA.

Economic sanctions leading to the deaths of millions , 500k children in Iraq alone which the US felt was totally justified.

Chemical weapons in various places. Fallujah in Iraq has been seeing babies being born with birth defects.

Overthrowing of governments via covert means, South America, Asia, Africa, Middle East etc.
[MENTION=7774]Robert[/MENTION] [MENTION=156573]SalimBhai[/MENTION] [MENTION=145891]cpleigh[/MENTION] [MENTION=132916]Junaids[/MENTION] Its only fair for you guys to give your views and defend this...Good luck

 

[ElRaja]

there are no good guys, the strong have exploited the weak for all known history, the west however was extremely efficient in its exploitation owing to the industrial revolution, and following that the tech revolution.

besiging cities, poisoning wells, salting agricultural fields, pelting rotting carcasses to spread disease, the creativity of human evil is nothing new, however the technological gap means that weaker nation states today simply cannot compete with the most advanced nations.

unfortunately war and large state interests are linked, scaring people into giving you tax money is a lot easier than arguing the merit of it, deep down everyone knows theres no justification for war and mass killing, but thanks to dogmas and ideologies people are convinced are worth dying for, it just becomes that much easier to sell.

 

[KingKhanWC]

there are no good guys, the strong have exploited the weak for all known history, the west however was extremely efficient in its exploitation owing to the industrial revolution, and following that the tech revolution.

besiging cities, poisoning wells, salting agricultural fields, pelting rotting carcasses to spread disease, the creativity of human evil is nothing new, however the technological gap means that weaker nation states today simply cannot compete with the most advanced nations.

unfortunately war and large state interests are linked, scaring people into giving you tax money is a lot easier than arguing the merit of it, deep down everyone knows theres no justification for war and mass killing, but thanks to dogmas and ideologies people are convinced are worth dying for, it just becomes that much easier to sell.

I agree.

However I would say now tech has given missile technology along with nuclear power, means one missile is enough to wipe out the UK or a few will ruin the world. The world now is interlinked, war is usually now self harm either in the short or long term. Do you feel continuing such aggressive policies towards others will lead to serious self harm or self destruction. E.g we can see the sanctions on Russia now are actually harming Europe.

You make a very interesting point regarding dogmas and beliefs convincing people dying is worth it. However do you not think this is more prevelant in societies which havent seen any serious war for many a year. Ie. USA has never been invaded fully by a foriegn nation, the Americans might think it will never be them or UK has seen no attacks since WW2. Are both populations so relaxed and so confident nothing will happen or are people now worried in this new era of the global power struggle we see?

 

[sweep_shot]

They absolutely are not the "good guys". History has shown they are manipulative snakes.

Any country that uses nuke on another country is an evil country. Why nuke Japan and kill many innocents? That was a stupid decision. That was an insane decision.

American invasion of Iraq was another evil action. Iraq had no hand in 9/11; Iraq didn't have WMD. So, why destabilize? Was it due to Saddam's gassing? In that case, America should've been invaded too because they used nukes on Japanese.

1953 Iranian coup was complete criminal from CIA and MI6. That interference alone shows what evil organizations these two groups are (reference: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1953_Iranian_coup_d'état).

 

[Technics 1210]

Western governments are without doubt the worst in history, no way are they the good guys.

Europe is littered with war, conquest, genocide, you name it - and for what? Liberalism. I am not even referring to the classical liberalism here, but the new found radical liberalism post WW2 that has caused nothing but destruction away, and at home.

We are at war not with foreigners, but from the enemy within.

 

[Gilly]

Life is not a movie, there are no "good guys v bad guys".

Its pretty simple if you don't like living in the West then move to a country that you do like. No country is going to be perfect and there are going to be bad people in every country.

You do get the strawman argument about how America did this and did that but at the end of the day that is where most people want to live and where most governments go for help. I get that ISIS and other terrorist organizations get people to spread their hatred for the west and try to degrade America and the west where they can. These people are brainwashed by terrorist organizations and taught to hate the west as a collective.

 

[James]

Less than good v bad I see it as more a case of human nature, conflicting interests and competition for resources. Many civilisations throughout history have looked to increase their power and influence and so have exhibited warlike and expansionist tendencies, the west simply being a more recent and prominent example.

 

[daytrader]

All great empires have been built through expansion and conquering. This is human history. Were some good or bad? That's for the victors to determine

 

[Major]

sure, west is evil. Pakistan and India are the good guys.......

Remember, the only reason why Islam even spread was through wars and conquering land

 

[Robert]

As others have said there are no good guys and bad guys. There are just guys. All one can do is try to contribute to ones’s nation in a positive way to make it do more good stuff and less bad stuff.

Britain had a key role in the Atlantic Passage which saw some 14 million Africans stolen and forced into slave labour over generations. This stain in history did not end when Britain abolished slavery in the 1830s or even when the slave colonies gained independence from Empire. When Britain left Jamaica that country had 85% adult illiteracy and massive incidence of diabetes and hyper due to the bad first forced on generations of slaves.

I see that Ms Trevelyan of the BBC has personally reparated Jamaica, which will at least open a discussion in UK about leaving that country and others in ruins.

The nineteenth century saw the British Empire rise to its zenith. Through incompetence it mismanaged many famines around the world, mostly in the Subcontinent it also Ireland leading to a 50% depopulation of that country due to starvation and emigration.

The first half of the twentieth century drowned in blood as the European empires became locked in a death struggle. Forced to fight for its life, the British Empire perpetrated horror in Persia and elsewhere.

Then totalitarianism flourished in Germany, Russia, China and Japan and hundreds of millions died in war and famine. Europe became an industrial death factory for anyone the Nazis deemed Other, as did Manchuria, Korea and much of South East Asia under the Imperial Japanese. I’m proud of my country’s role in helping to bring that to an end and restoring democracy in West Germany and Japan. Though I can understand why Subcontinental folk would see little difference between the Raj’s economic mismanagement of famines and the industrial death camps of the Japanese. Dead is still dead.

Britain then helped set up the post-war liberal international order with institutions such as the UN, World Bank, IMF, GATT, Council of Europe, ECHR, Maastricht and Lisbon Treaties. I am proud of that Britain.

We signed the Belfast Agreement on Good Friday in 1997. This is the best thing Britain did in my lifetime, bringing decades of violence in Ireland to an end.

Then things started to go wrong again. Sadly Brexit occurred in due to older Britons’ wish to return to a past of greater certainty and national self-belief. They want to tear down the liberal international order that their parents built. Sadly they were lied to by rich people who got richer and concentrated their power. Now the Europeans no longer trust us, disconnected as we are from the modern Europe, convinced that we have suffered a national mental breakdown, led by amoral people who negotiate in bad faith and see peace treaties as inconveniences. The rich leaders fight culture wars - making the common folk fear Others such as the EU, the growing black consciousness, Muslims, trans people - instead of seeking to reduce the societal inequality which puts us far behind our European neighbours.

But I’m hoping we can put that behind us and become good European neighbours again.

I’m proud of British scientific achievement. Newton’s physics, Darwin explaining speciation, Jenner’s vaccine that saved hundreds of millions, Babbage’s computing, Brunel’s engineering, Wren’s architecture, Berners-Lee’s web, Hawking and Penrose with their elegant elucidation of the start of the universe. This is the side of Britain that benefits the world.

I’m proud of some of our brilliant TV and film creators. Particularly our young women right now - Billie Piper and Michaela Cole make excoriating and thoughtful drama on what it means to be a woman in Britain today.

I’m proud of our musical heritage, particularly the latter twentieth century which saw such an explosion of creativity: Beatles, Rolling Stones, Who, Elton John, Bowie, Queen, Radiohead. This enriches world culture.

 

[Robert]

Correction - Laura Trevelyan personally reparated Grenada, not Jamaica.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-latin-america-64527709.amp

Interestingly the Church of England has set up a £100M fund to reparate the descendants of slaves.

 

[SalimBhai]

If you look at the total history of mankind , then there are no good or bad guys. . There is blood on everyone’s hand, be it usa, european colonist, Japanese, ottomans, the Muslim empires , mongols and so on and so on . Each of them have committed terrible crimes . To think it’s the west or the east is juvenile .

 

[szrana007]

"The West won the world not by the superiority of its ideas or values or religion, but rather by its superiority in applying organized violence. Westerners often forget this fact, non-Westerners never do.”

This quote by Samuel Huntington sums the rise of the West.

 

[Robert]

"The West won the world not by the superiority of its ideas or values or religion, but rather by its superiority in applying organized violence. Westerners often forget this fact, non-Westerners never do.”

This quote by Samuel Huntington sums the rise of the West.

Doesn't explain the incredibly violent history of China (1860-1960) and Imperial Japan (1930-45). Had the latter not attacked Pearl Harbor, they would no doubt have been free to rampage across Asia murdering tens of millions more than they did.

 

[sweep_shot]

"The West won the world not by the superiority of its ideas or values or religion, but rather by its superiority in applying organized violence. Westerners often forget this fact, non-Westerners never do.”

This quote by Samuel Huntington sums the rise of the West.

Also, let's not forget the large number of resources they looted.

British Empire has looted trillions of Dollars from Indian subcontinent just like Yankees have looted a large amount of oil from Middle East.

Some of these so-called civilized empires were built using stolen resources.

 

[KingKhanWC]

"The West won the world not by the superiority of its ideas or values or religion, but rather by its superiority in applying organized violence. Westerners often forget this fact, non-Westerners never do.”

This quote by Samuel Huntington sums the rise of the West.

This is a great quote and never a truer word said! Thanks !


The Good Guys title is because the US/UK always insists they are. They believe they are the worlds police and have a right to intervene in the world. But as Huntingtons true quote , they use violence against others to gain superiority in the world.

Some strange posts in response, something out of the EDL imo. Its not if you dont like the country dont live there, true citizens will call for change . Millions in the UK and US dont want their country to bomb innocent kids.

Plenty of nations have bad leaders but they dont regularly claim they are the free world and they defo dont roam around the planet causing destruction.

Eventually the bullies get a taste of their own medicine and this could happen now. The US/UK and its other puppets can no longer control the world in where Russia, CHina and others have enough firepower to take them down too.

We live in a global world where everyone must get on and treat each other fairly or we all will end up destroyed.

 

[SalimBhai]

I think most civilizations won over by violence. Not something unique to the west. Read up on mongols, Japan, Islamic empires. Pretty much sums up most civilizations.

 

[szrana007]

Doesn't explain the incredibly violent history of China (1860-1960) and Imperial Japan (1930-45). Had the latter not attacked Pearl Harbor, they would no doubt have been free to rampage across Asia murdering tens of millions more than they did.

I am sure Imperial Japan and China were violent too, but the success of the West is largely built on colonialism. The looted wealth and resources gave the Europeans the impetus to carry out the industrial and scientific revolution, which in turn gave the European military powers the technological edge to dominate the whole world. The Western dominance of the world is a reality because western powers were superior to every other power in the world in terms of applying organized violence. All this supposed superiority of Western values and ideas is a hogwash.

 

[szrana007]

Also, let's not forget the large number of resources they looted.

British Empire has looted trillions of Dollars from Indian subcontinent just like Yankees have looted a large amount of oil from Middle East.

Yeah, Britian financed its industrial andscientific revolution via colonialism through the looted wealth and resources. The success of Britian today is not because of superiority of British values or culture, but rather because of the organized violence it was able to apply compared to other nations.

 

[Heisenberg111]

This thread is going in an intersting direction.

Is the success of the West almost exclusively built on violence and imperialism or is there more to it?

 

[SalimBhai]

You can have all the wealth in the world, but you do know the culture to flourish. Look at the gulf countries . They have had insane amount of wealth for a long time now. However no scientific discoveries or innovation from the region. Zero!!!

 

[Technics 1210]

Life is not a movie, there are no "good guys v bad guys".

Its pretty simple if you don't like living in the West then move to a country that you do like. No country is going to be perfect and there are going to be bad people in every country.

You do get the strawman argument about how America did this and did that but at the end of the day that is where most people want to live and where most governments go for help. I get that ISIS and other terrorist organizations get people to spread their hatred for the west and try to degrade America and the west where they can. These people are brainwashed by terrorist organizations and taught to hate the west as a collective.

You do not live in the West though, but live in a country that personifies Western values, more importantly, the white race. Yup, lets not pretend when one hears 'The West' one is not talking about the white race because the post WW2 years of immigration and assimilation do not change the Western psyche or its historical and foreseeable actions.

 

[Technics 1210]

This thread is going in an intersting direction.

Is the success of the West almost exclusively built on violence and imperialism or is there more to it?

It is also built on debt and credit.

The West teaches its people to borrow from the future to enjoy the present.

Standards of living in the West are a facade.

 

[KingKhanWC]

This thread is going in an intersting direction.

Is the success of the West almost exclusively built on violence and imperialism or is there more to it?

It depends on what you mean success? Certain inventions have been great but most built on the back of research from other nations. Then we have sports, the PL , cricket, tennis etc which have been great for the world but these are a product of the people, not much to do with the government. This is for the UK and we need to remember the UK has NO to little natural resources. When a nation with so little becomes so rich its usually down to looting others.

The US also has great achievements such as man on the moon(if you believe it) etc.

The problem is NONE of these are of any great benefit to the planet or to other nations. They are just negligible successes when compared to the damage done to billions of people and hundreds of nations.

The world has now recognised this thus the new global world order being formed. In a decade or so its game over for the west.

 

[KingKhanWC]

It is also built on debt and credit.

The West teaches its people to borrow from the future to enjoy the present.

Standards of living in the West are a facade.

USA has nearly $32 trillion in debt! This is not sustainable, within this decade you will see the collapse of the US $ which will then ofcourse leave the public hanging on a shoe string.

But you make a very important point to this discussion.

You are aware but for others, the US after Saudi did the petrodollar deal has printed of masses of money which has been used for their state terrorism. China and others have been buying their debt bonds but are now reducing this as they want an end. IF OPEC announce the end of the Petrodollar , its curtains for the west.

 

[sweep_shot]

You can have all the wealth in the world, but you do know the culture to flourish. Look at the gulf countries . They have had insane amount of wealth for a long time now. However no scientific discoveries or innovation from the region. Zero!!!

Gulf infrastructures are state of the art and make "first world" look like third world.

Who cares about innovation or scientific discovery? Look at their living standards. They have little to no taxes, very low crimes, and common sense laws.

 

[KingKhanWC]

Gulf infrastructures are state of the art and make "first world" look like third world.

Who cares about innovation or scientific discovery? Look at their living standards. They have little to no taxes, very low crimes, and common sense laws.

Europe is a dump compared to the middle east now, Ive traveled to most of Europe and most of the Arab world too.

But this is another point, it was the Brits who installed the dictators in the Arab world, more to their resume of blood and oppression.

So far nobody has mentioned one or two nations who can even come close to competing with US/UK in terms of world destruction and interference.

4 Million died as a result of the war of terror policies, yet we only hear of the holocaust against the 'Jews' in the west not this mass murder.

 

[KingKhanWC]

You do not live in the West though, but live in a country that personifies Western values, more importantly, the white race. Yup, lets not pretend when one hears 'The West' one is not talking about the white race because the post WW2 years of immigration and assimilation do not change the Western psyche or its historical and foreseeable actions.

Its ironic anyone from Australia can tell others to move when their ancestors were sent as criminals to take over other peoples lands. It also shows the arrogance of such people thinking they are part of the west when they live as far away from Europe one possibly can. Instead of joining with the natives, these convicts along with their masters WIPED OUT AN ENTIRE RACE of people from the face of the Earth. I think the west has wiped out a number of races/ethnic groups from the face of the earth in its history but we must only shed tears about the 'Jewish holocaust'..

 

[the Great Khan]

Life is not a movie, there are no "good guys v bad guys".

Its pretty simple if you don't like living in the West then move to a country that you do like. No country is going to be perfect and there are going to be bad people in every country.

You do get the strawman argument about how America did this and did that but at the end of the day that is where most people want to live and where most governments go for help. I get that ISIS and other terrorist organizations get people to spread their hatred for the west and try to degrade America and the west where they can. These people are brainwashed by terrorist organizations and taught to hate the west as a collective.

Happy to leave but first I'd like you to repay part of the 45 trillion dollars your ancestors stole from mine and that you still enjoy the fruits of today. If you give us our money back with a full refund and all of my takes back too I'll happy leave.

You know the funny part. They came to our countries. Stripped them dry. Turned our people into slaves. Fuelled their Industrial revolution that has destroyed the planet and now ask our people to pay for it.

It's very easy for people to say "oh there are no good guys"...and to an extent that is true. But before Europeans decided the world owed them a debt for some unknown reason, the worlds total wars hadnt killed as many as died in ww1 and ww2.

I love how you say [MENTION=7774]Robert[/MENTION] that famines were mismanaged. Well let's look at this claim then.lets take 1876 to 1880. Lord Lytton was viceroy of India. He organised the crowning of that vile woman Victoria as Empress. (The indignity that we had to be ruled by a woman who didn't even bathe). The ceremony was held on a plain that once contained hundreds of villages. They demolished them all. Yup just mismanagement.

Let's look at some other mismanagement. Lyttons own tent was so lavish it was lit up like a Christmas tree. Now what was happening in Bengal during this time? Ah yes one of many famines. Isn't it strange that famines didn't occur during the mughal empire.but the British turn up and you get three or four in a go.5 million bengalis perish but hey it was a bit of mismanagement so you know "we are sorry chaps..now let's move along chop chop.." but let's look at this from the British perspective. Lytton was the viceroy. The man in charge shouldn't he have done something? I mean perhaps he tried but was so incompetent that he failed and he ended up killing so many people. I mean cmon we all make mistakes right? Erm no.

Malnutrition was a fact of life in India. Where a hundred years before this land was one of the richest. Yet now malnutrition was common..Lytton condemned critics who decried his callousness as scenes of horror couldn't be ignored any longer. He called it humanitarian hysterics. Like a good tory.

But I won't call these famines. That would be to easy for Robert and the rest. Because OT implies it was some kind of act of God. This was what shashi tharoor calls in his book a "British Colonial Holocaust".according to tharoor 30 to 35 million of my countrymen died because of the British direct willful and intentional policy of stripping the nation of its resources.

According to the Oriental Herald 1838 there were 15 famines. 1766 1770 (half of bengal died) 1782 1792 1803 1804 1819 1820 1824 1829 1832 1833 1836 1837 1838..

There were other famines orissa 1866,Bihar 1873, south India 1876 1896 , bombay 1905 and then 1943 the great Bengal famine that Robert claims was Hitlers fault.

William Digby claims that in all the wars from 1793-1900 5million people died. Whereas in 10 yrs 1891 to 1900 19 million died.

So why didn't they do anything? Simple they didn't want to as it went against their beliefs. One was free trade principles the second was Malthusian doctrine and the third financial prudence.

During the Orissa famine of 1866 1.5 million people died but the British Sent 200 million pounds of rice to Britain. So literally took food from the mouths of dying children.

I mean o could go on and on..but look at the numbers

45 trillion dollars from the subcontinent. Stole
13 trillion from the Atlantic slave trade. Stole.

30-40 million dead due to famines induced by the British. Mass murder on an Industrial scale. To such an extent that it still effects Indians Pakistanis and Bangladeshis to this day. Diabetes and such diseases are a direct result of these famines. Generational trauma.

Mass murder in Africa. Australia. The Americas..

I mean your looking at nearly a billion killed by European colonisers.

The funny thing is Robert decries Stalin and Putin yet the British did worse in India. As it was said London was eating Indias bread while Indians were dying in a famine.

Sondont you dare say "if you don't like it leave"..pay me my due son and I'll gladly leave you and your pig eating brethren. But until that day we remain here if not as a small reminder of the pain and suffering you delivered on us.

 

[Technics 1210]

USA has nearly $32 trillion in debt! This is not sustainable, within this decade you will see the collapse of the US $ which will then ofcourse leave the public hanging on a shoe string.

But you make a very important point to this discussion.

You are aware but for others, the US after Saudi did the petrodollar deal has printed of masses of money which has been used for their state terrorism. China and others have been buying their debt bonds but are now reducing this as they want an end. IF OPEC announce the end of the Petrodollar , its curtains for the west.

Indeed, and then Amreeka further suppresses development in the East by threatening to strengthen the USD.

Lets take a look at how the West works.

In Europe - Italy, Greece, and Spain all have a GDP to DEBT ratio above 100%, but their bond yields have been historically low.

Pakistan's GDP to DEBT ratio stands at a mere 75%, which is even lower than the UK.

https://www.statista.com/statistics...an-in-relation-to-gross-domestic-product-gdp/

But which country has to seek a bailout? Pakistan.

In other words, if Western nations played by the rules they bestow on the international scene, then UK, Europe, and USA would be bankrupt, if not insolvent.

 

[DeadlyVenom]

Good guys to their own citizens.

Bad guys with regards to the treatment of other countries.

If you are born in a western country you have won the lottery compared to those born in other countries.

You enjoy (for the most part), life in a highly developed society, access to high quality education and healthcare, excellent individual freedoms and a higher standard of living when compared to the rest of the world.

The state takes good care of its own and within some western countries you can very quickly become part of their own.

 

[KingKhanWC]

Happy to leave but first I'd like you to repay part of the 45 trillion dollars your ancestors stole from mine and that you still enjoy the fruits of today. If you give us our money back with a full refund and all of my takes back too I'll happy leave.

You know the funny part. They came to our countries. Stripped them dry. Turned our people into slaves. Fuelled their Industrial revolution that has destroyed the planet and now ask our people to pay for it.

It's very easy for people to say "oh there are no good guys"...and to an extent that is true. But before Europeans decided the world owed them a debt for some unknown reason, the worlds total wars hadnt killed as many as died in ww1 and ww2.

I love how you say [MENTION=7774]Robert[/MENTION] that famines were mismanaged. Well let's look at this claim then.lets take 1876 to 1880. Lord Lytton was viceroy of India. He organised the crowning of that vile woman Victoria as Empress. (The indignity that we had to be ruled by a woman who didn't even bathe). The ceremony was held on a plain that once contained hundreds of villages. They demolished them all. Yup just mismanagement.

Let's look at some other mismanagement. Lyttons own tent was so lavish it was lit up like a Christmas tree. Now what was happening in Bengal during this time? Ah yes one of many famines. Isn't it strange that famines didn't occur during the mughal empire.but the British turn up and you get three or four in a go.5 million bengalis perish but hey it was a bit of mismanagement so you know "we are sorry chaps..now let's move along chop chop.." but let's look at this from the British perspective. Lytton was the viceroy. The man in charge shouldn't he have done something? I mean perhaps he tried but was so incompetent that he failed and he ended up killing so many people. I mean cmon we all make mistakes right? Erm no.

Malnutrition was a fact of life in India. Where a hundred years before this land was one of the richest. Yet now malnutrition was common..Lytton condemned critics who decried his callousness as scenes of horror couldn't be ignored any longer. He called it humanitarian hysterics. Like a good tory.

But I won't call these famines. That would be to easy for Robert and the rest. Because OT implies it was some kind of act of God. This was what shashi tharoor calls in his book a "British Colonial Holocaust".according to tharoor 30 to 35 million of my countrymen died because of the British direct willful and intentional policy of stripping the nation of its resources.

According to the Oriental Herald 1838 there were 15 famines. 1766 1770 (half of bengal died) 1782 1792 1803 1804 1819 1820 1824 1829 1832 1833 1836 1837 1838..

There were other famines orissa 1866,Bihar 1873, south India 1876 1896 , bombay 1905 and then 1943 the great Bengal famine that Robert claims was Hitlers fault.

William Digby claims that in all the wars from 1793-1900 5million people died. Whereas in 10 yrs 1891 to 1900 19 million died.

So why didn't they do anything? Simple they didn't want to as it went against their beliefs. One was free trade principles the second was Malthusian doctrine and the third financial prudence.

During the Orissa famine of 1866 1.5 million people died but the British Sent 200 million pounds of rice to Britain. So literally took food from the mouths of dying children.

I mean o could go on and on..but look at the numbers

45 trillion dollars from the subcontinent. Stole
13 trillion from the Atlantic slave trade. Stole.

30-40 million dead due to famines induced by the British. Mass murder on an Industrial scale. To such an extent that it still effects Indians Pakistanis and Bangladeshis to this day. Diabetes and such diseases are a direct result of these famines. Generational trauma.

Mass murder in Africa. Australia. The Americas..

I mean your looking at nearly a billion killed by European colonisers.

The funny thing is Robert decries Stalin and Putin yet the British did worse in India. As it was said London was eating Indias bread while Indians were dying in a famine.

Sondont you dare say "if you don't like it leave"..pay me my due son and I'll gladly leave you and your pig eating brethren. But until that day we remain here if not as a small reminder of the pain and suffering you delivered on us.

Great read this post. Some people dont realise Asians are only here in the UK because Brits came to their countries first, looted , pillaged and turned well off nations into 3rd world poverty lands. But hey ho, they gave them cricket and a railway line so Brits did well acc to them.

We also have to remember Asians were on the front line in WW2, over 2.5 million fought for the Brits against Germany, some say 100k died. Then many other were invited to the UK to build the country , working tough jobs for 12 hours a day often. Lets not even mention the other loot still held such as jewels and rare artifacts.

 

[KingKhanWC]

Indeed, and then Amreeka further suppresses development in the East by threatening to strengthen the USD.

Lets take a look at how the West works.

In Europe - Italy, Greece, and Spain all have a GDP to DEBT ratio above 100%, but their bond yields have been historically low.

Pakistan's GDP to DEBT ratio stands at a mere 75%, which is even lower than the UK.

https://www.statista.com/statistics...an-in-relation-to-gross-domestic-product-gdp/

But which country has to seek a bailout? Pakistan.

In other words, if Western nations played by the rules they bestow on the international scene, then UK, Europe, and USA would be bankrupt, if not insolvent.

Economic control has always been an important tool of the good ol west. Its not a coincidence the IMF headquaters just like the UN are in the USA. IMF is mainly used to keep other nations into slavery, the debt grows and grows while they have control of the nations economy. Those nations which are debt free and wont be played like Gaddafis Liyba are destroyed. When the much loved Colonel was murdered, Libya had reserves of $150 billion with ZERO debt.

 

[KingKhanWC]

Good guys to their own citizens.

Bad guys with regards to the treatment of other countries.

If you are born in a western country you have won the lottery compared to those born in other countries.

You enjoy (for the most part), life in a highly developed society, access to high quality education and healthcare, excellent individual freedoms and a higher standard of living when compared to the rest of the world.

The state takes good care of its own and within some western countries you can very quickly become part of their own.

This is becoming less truer by the day.

The costs are so high with wages being avg for the most part, the majority of the populations live month to month paychecks.

Security was also a great benefit but this has gone out of the window. With their adventures around the world, terrorism has arrived in the west inc domestic terrorism after their brainwashing of their own people, using hatred of others to justify their attacks.

Now we are in a time where history is changing before our very eyes. UK and Europe are not secure at all, Russia and China are monsters who will not lie down and die or be controlled anylonger. If the west wants to take them out, they better be willing for mutual destruction. The world is at serious risk yet people are busy watching satanic fans prancing around at awards ceremonies or concerts.

 

[sweep_shot]

Economic control has always been an important tool of the good ol west. Its not a coincidence the IMF headquaters just like the UN are in the USA. IMF is mainly used to keep other nations into slavery, the debt grows and grows while they have control of the nations economy. Those nations which are debt free and wont be played like Gaddafis Liyba are destroyed. When the much loved Colonel was murdered, Libya had reserves of $150 billion with ZERO debt.

Indeed.

Was it a coincidence that the mess in Libya started after Libya became debt-free? Also, Gadaffi wanted to make Africa debt-free as he believed debt was a western tool to enslave Africa. See the article below:

How Muammar Gaddafi’s Vision for a Debt-Free Africa Led to His Death

At the time of Muammar Gaddafi’s assassination on 20 October 2011, Libya had a national reserve totaling $150 billion and zero debt.

In 2014, three years after his death, records revealed that the national debt of Libya amounted to around $46.37 billion and the standard of living in the country had dropped drastically. Many critics have continued to argue that Gaddafi was targeted by the West because of his vision for a debt-free Africa.

While reacting to the role of the West in the assassination of Gaddafi, Dr James Thring, the founder of Ministry of Peace – an initiative to unite the peace movement and counter war lobbies, injustice and suffering said that “it’s one of those things that you have to plan almost in secret because as soon as you say you’re going to change over from the dollar to something else, you’re going to be targeted.” He added that while Gaddafi might not have been the most democratic leader in the world, Libyan citizens arguably had the best way of life during his reign

History will forever remember Colonel Muammar Gaddafi as a controversial leader, but one thing no one can take away from the revered ex-Libyan ruler is that he was bent on protecting Africa from western influences at all cost. He believed that through loans and foreign aid, the West penetrated African economies to enrich themselves at the expense of the continent.

He was branded a "mad dog" by Ronald Reagan. His outlandish antics, flamboyant dress and bombastic pronouncements of the self-styled "Brother Leader" made him a figure of ridicule at times. But, every western leader throughout his 40-year reign labeled him an enemy that must be deposed at all cost; the question remains, why?

He hardly travelled abroad, and when he did, he was accompanied by a blonde Ukrainian nurse and insisted on staying in his Bedouin tent, protected by his team of glamorous, gun-toting female bodyguards.

At his first appearance at the UN General Assembly, Gaddafi tore up a copy of the UN charter, likened the Security Council to al-Qaeda, and demanded $7.7 trillion in compensation to Africa from its former colonial rulers.

Gaddafi urged other African leaders to follow the footsteps of Libya in rejecting foreign loans and aid; he encouraged bigger African nations to offer loans and assistance to poorer nations.

According to Reuters in a February 9, 2011 report, Libya provided loans to about 40 countries worth a total of $2.197 billion. As of the end of 2009, Libya had been paid back $1.302 billion, leaving an outstanding balance, including interest, of $3.231 billion.

Unlike the World Bank and International Monetary Fund (IMF), Libya was willing to cancel the outstanding balance of Sudan’s $1.287 billion debt due to the poor state of Sudan’s economy.

“We are seeking to have all of Sudan’s loans forgiven because we believe that both governments, the Government of Sudan and the would-be Government of South Sudan, would not be in a position to repay these loans soon,” Marial Awour, the then-junior minister of finance in Libya had told Reuters.

To discourage other African countries from going to the World Bank or IMF for loans, Gaddafi approved loans for many other African countries too. Ethiopia owed $249 million and Mozambique still owes $211 million at the time of Gaddafi’s death. It was believed that the actions of Gaddafi in cutting dependency from the West were not welcomed by western authorities. If they were okay with Gaddafi’s decision to prevent Libya from western influence, they were certainly not okay with his decision to offer loans to other countries in a bid to prevent them from approaching the World Bank and IMF.

Recently, Wikileaks released unclassified U.S. Department of State documents including email correspondence between Secretary of State under President Barrack Obama, Hillary Clinton and Sidney Blumenthal - an aide to former American President, Bill Clinton.

The correspondence revealed that the United States was greatly worried by the wealth of Gaddafi’s government in Libya and how the African ruler was aspiring to break African’s dependency on the U.S. dollar with the gold-Dinar. What was perhaps most disturbing was the fact that Gaddafi was planning to peg Africa’s currency to gold.

This further goes to prove that Gaddafi was not killed for humanitarian purposes, but the crude oil and gold in Libya. His ideas of an African gold-backed currency were his major undoing.

Sidney Blumenthal, in his email to Hillary Clinton, said:

“Gaddafi's government holds 143 tons of gold and a similar amount in silver. During late March 2011 these stocks were moved to SABHA (south-west in the direction of the Libyan border with Niger and Chad); taken from the vaults of the Libyan Central Bank in Tripoli.”

He went on to say the gold and silver was valued at $7 billion and was one of the reasons Nicolas Sarkozy embarked on a French attack on Libya.

It is no news that before the fall of Tripoli, Gaddafi was trying to create a single African currency linked to gold; this move by Gaddafi would have broken the African economic dependence on the West.

Sadly, Gaddafi’s dream for a debt-free Africa never saw the light of day. On 20 October 2011, the United States and the North Atlantic Treaty Organization (NATO) aided Libyan rebels in the capture and assassination of Colonel Muammar Gaddafi in his hometown, Sirte.

A U.S. drone operated remotely from Las Vegas alerted NATO that Gaddafi was among a group fleeing in an 80-car convoy. French fighter jets responded with an airstrike on the convoy, wounding Gaddafi.

The intelligence office, with the help of the drone, would later alert the rebels that Gaddafi was hiding in a drainage pipe. He was located and murdered on live camera.

Reference: https://www.africanexponent.com/pos...0-debt-gaddafis-vision-for-a-debt-free-africa.

 

[KingKhanWC]

Gaddafi was changing the game, he also wanted to introduce a new gold back currency for all of Africa. Libya was the most advanced nation in Africa with its people being given free healthcare, free education and even at time free energy. Now the west have looted its oil and set up their mercenaries to keep it in ruins.

 

[SalimBhai]

Gulf infrastructures are state of the art and make "first world" look like third world.

Who cares about innovation or scientific discovery? Look at their living standards. They have little to no taxes, very low crimes, and common sense laws.

How delusional can you be. There is a reason everyone comes to the west. If for an example a Pakistani had a choice between gulf or usa. They would almost always pick usa. To think otherwise is delusional who cares about innovation or scientific discovery???? If you are asking that question then you can’t be helped .

 

[SalimBhai]

The funny part is . The ones complaining about the west are living in the west. Their parents came to the west . And it’s so easy for these people with western education and usa/uk/ Canada passport to move to the gulf. How many are moving. Very few if any. . Please come back to reality……

 

[SalimBhai]

Libya was a dump. Gaddafi was a psychopath . I dont . The general population lived in total fear of the regime.

 

[ElRaja]

I agree.

However I would say now tech has given missile technology along with nuclear power, means one missile is enough to wipe out the UK or a few will ruin the world. The world now is interlinked, war is usually now self harm either in the short or long term. Do you feel continuing such aggressive policies towards others will lead to serious self harm or self destruction. E.g we can see the sanctions on Russia now are actually harming Europe.

You make a very interesting point regarding dogmas and beliefs convincing people dying is worth it. However do you not think this is more prevelant in societies which havent seen any serious war for many a year. Ie. USA has never been invaded fully by a foriegn nation, the Americans might think it will never be them or UK has seen no attacks since WW2. Are both populations so relaxed and so confident nothing will happen or are people now worried in this new era of the global power struggle we see?

i wouldn't say self-destruction, just a misuse of resources which slows down beneficial advancements humanity could make.

the money spent on the Iraq war, if put to scientific uses could have seen people exploring space, fixing diseases, working on new energy sources, etc, but i know this is a utopian ideal.

i have seen insecurities in people ruin individuals and groups of people, and i think these same insecurities are manifest on a greater scale and result in ruin and waste.

during periods of scarcity humans become tribal, and this trait has been used to exploit humans forever.

 

[Robert]

[MENTION=253]the Great Khan[/MENTION],

There were acts of God. The Irish Famine 1845-8 was precipitated by a blight of the potato crop. The Bengal Famine of 1943/4 was begun by a typhoon and another blight. A number of the other Raj-era famines were started by late monsoons. However, the response by local administrators to these crises should be examined. For example, HM Gov had heard warnings for years about explosive population growth, bad housing and bad nutrition in Ireland but did nothing, trusting to the markets to fix the problem.

Please don’t make stuff up about me. I never said that “the Bengal Famine was Hitler’s fault”. Challenge my ideas by all means, but attack things I have actually said and don’t misrepresent me. It seems to be happening more and more to me here (not just you but several others).

 

[Gilly]

Libya was a dump. Gaddafi was a psychopath . I dont . The general population lived in total fear of the regime.

Gaddafi also kept thousands of young girls as sex slaves.

Uncovered: The macabre sex chamber of Libya's Colonel Gaddafi where he raped girls - and boys - as young as 14
Colonel Muhammar Gaddafi kept several 'sex dungeons' at his palaces
Libyan tyrant forced hundreds of young girls to become his sex slaves
Gaddafi also had a 'harem' of young men called 'the services group'
Dictator visited schools and 'chose' his victims with a pat on the head
Gaddafi was killed in October 2011 after 42 years of dictatorship

Many were virgins kidnapped from schools and universities and kept prisoner for years in a specially designed secret sex lair hidden within Tripoli University or his many palaces. In the 26 months since he was deposed, Gaddafi’s den – where he regularly raped girls as young as 14 – has remained locked. But today its gaudy interior, where the colonel brutalised his victims, can be seen for the first time in photographs from a hard-hitting BBC4 documentary.

Inside the small, nondescript single-storey complex, the girls were forced to watch pornography to ‘educate’ them for their degrading treatment at the hands of Gaddafi. And even those who did manage to escape were often shunned by their deeply religious Muslim families who believed their family honour had been tainted.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...olonel-Gaddafi-raped-girls-boys-young-14.html

 

[sweep_shot]

How delusional can you be. There is a reason everyone comes to the west. If for an example a Pakistani had a choice between gulf or usa. They would almost always pick usa. To think otherwise is delusional who cares about innovation or scientific discovery???? If you are asking that question then you can’t be helped .

Gulf has better salaries, lower taxes, lower crimes, and better infrastructures.

USA has mass shootings, radical liberals, and many other problems.

 

[SalimBhai]

Gulf has better salaries, lower taxes, lower crimes, and better infrastructures.

USA has mass shootings, radical liberals, and many other problems.

So why is the whole world wanting to come to the west and not the gulf. . What scientific achúlense does the west hold?

 

[saeedhk]

The West is evil but everybody lines up outside their embassies in hopes of getting a visa and never ever returning to their home country. Whenever I am back to Pakistan, the most frequent question I am asked is,' Is there a way for me to migrate to the West. I am willing to do whatever possible to leave this country?'

The whole argument of West vs Muslims is based on emotions, irrationality and double standards. The kind of lives one can live in the West and the rights you can enjoy in the West are unmatched and found nowhere else.

 

[saeedhk]

Gulf has better salaries, lower taxes, lower crimes, and better infrastructures.

USA has mass shootings, radical liberals, and many other problems.

Gulf has meagre wages! My friend is working in Saudi as a barber for Rs 60,000 a month!

Also, Gulf treats Pakistanis like third-grade citizen and forbids Pakistanis from marrying local women, buying property, obtaining nationality as well as imposing various other restrictions. Imagine if England imposed such restrictions on Pakistanis, there would be riots in Lahore and Karachi!

 

[sweep_shot]

Gulf has meagre wages! My friend is working in Saudi as a barber for Rs 60,000 a month!

Also, Gulf treats Pakistanis like third-grade citizen and forbids Pakistanis from marrying local women, buying property, obtaining nationality as well as imposing various other restrictions. Imagine if England imposed such restrictions on Pakistanis, there would be riots in Lahore and Karachi!

I was referring to white collar jobs. IT jobs, for example.

Compare IT jobs of gulf states with those from America (don't forget to compare the taxes).

Most blue collar jobs would pay less anywhere in the world (including West).

 

[saeedhk]

I was referring to white collar jobs. IT jobs, for example.

Compare IT jobs of gulf states with those from America (don't forget to compare the taxes).

Most blue collar jobs would pay less anywhere in the world (including West).

Not when you are comparing Gulf and the West. The difference is wages is mammoth.

 

[SalimBhai]

Not when you are comparing Gulf and the West. The difference is wages is mammoth.

It’s not only that these people are living in the west, but they are truing their best that their mamu, Phupi , Khala can also come here . None will love to gulf either Agreed gulf is much better than Pakistan or India. Gulf vs west . Sorry no comparison . And I think there was one poster above who said “ who cares about scientific innovation”. Unbelievable thought process .

 

[saeedhk]

It’s not only that these people are living in the west, but they are truing their best that their mamu, Phupi , Khala can also come here . None will love to gulf either Agreed gulf is much better than Pakistan or India. Gulf vs west . Sorry no comparison . And I think there was one poster above who said “ who cares about scientific innovation”. Unbelievable thought process .

Exactly! People are so desperate! My cousin who was taunted his all life by his relatives for being 'lazy' and 'useless' and nobody was willing to give their daughter to him in marriage.

He tried getting married but he had no luck. However, right after coming to Hong Kong, the same aunt who used to taunt him told him to marry her daughter and now they are married. Heck, in my village in Pakistan, mothers are willing to marry off their daughters to 50/60 year old foreign-based Pakistani. One 50 year old British uncle has three under-23 wives!

Most on this forum have not lived in Pakistan and most have not even been to Pakistan. so they do not understand how incredibly lucky they are to be living in Europe!

 

[SalimBhai]

I have been to Hong Kong a few times. Fascinating city. Maybe on a new thread you can comment on the Pakistani community in HK?? What is it like. Have they assimilated into the HK culture. I love the national museum of HK. There is a brief piece of pre partition desis moving to HK and how they lived. Also have you been to punjab club restaurant?

 

[wasim-fan]

There are no good guys. Only interests.

 

[SalimBhai]

There are no good guys. Only interests.

Well said

 

[Robert]

Libya was a dump. Gaddafi was a psychopath . I dont . The general population lived in total fear of the regime.

I would have left him in place though. At least women could get an education and the standard of living was going up. The UN-sanctioned no-fly zone enforced by NATO / Jordan / Qatar / UAE to stop Gaddafi killing civilians allowed the rebels to win.

Now the country is split in two by factions in Tobruk and Tripoli, with jihadi groups and tribal warlords controlling some areas.

 

[Robert]

The funny part is . The ones complaining about the west are living in the west. Their parents came to the west . And it’s so easy for these people with western education and usa/uk/ Canada passport to move to the gulf. How many are moving. Very few if any. . Please come back to reality……

I would go to the Gulf for maybe two years to pull the big tax-free salary. But I wouldn’t settle there.

 

[LongHorn]

Gulf has better salaries, lower taxes, lower crimes, and better infrastructures.

USA has mass shootings, radical liberals, and many other problems.

Not quite. Salaries in Gulf are higher if you already have a western passport
If you have Pakistani or Bangladeshi passport most normal companies will pay you peanuts compared to the West
I was applying for jobs last year and saw ads for Investment Analyst role at 6000 Dhs, that is less than 1700 US$ monthly. And Dubai is more expensive to live in than most American cities except Bay Area/NYC

 

[LongHorn]

I was referring to white collar jobs. IT jobs, for example.

Compare IT jobs of gulf states with those from America (don't forget to compare the taxes).

Most blue collar jobs would pay less anywhere in the world (including West).

Absolutely wrong

Except for top companies in Gulf, most normal companies pay peanuts to people with Desi passport for IT Positions

https://ae.indeed.com/cmp/Oro24-Developments-LLC/jobs

This is a normal private firm in Dubai, a .NET Software Developer with 5 years experience is being advertised for 6000 Dhs
That is less than 1700 US Dollars monthly

 

[LongHorn]

Gulf infrastructures are state of the art and make "first world" look like third world.

Who cares about innovation or scientific discovery? Look at their living standards. They have little to no taxes, very low crimes, and common sense laws.

Thanks for showing you understand very little about the Gulf

In recent cases
A guy was convicted of distributing child porn and only got a fine, no jail term in the UAE

In another case a man was drink driving and killed another person in an accident. He got 2-3 months in jail

Another man shared a Facebook link to a charity arranging blankets for Afghan kids in winter. He got jail

Another man wrote on some Facebook page on how Qatar is a better place to live in than the UAE, he got arrested and jailed (this was during the 2017 to 2021 blockade of Qatar by MBS/MBZ)

So much for "common sense laws"

 

[LongHorn]

Not when you are comparing Gulf and the West. The difference is wages is mammoth.

To give some examples of how clueless some people are

A worker in a fast food place in Dubai or Abu Dhabi gets around 1500 Dirhams monthly, or 2000 Dhs for 10 hours work 6 days a week

That comes out to 500 US Dollars monthly. Housing is dorm style with 4 or 6 or 8 people in a small room

A worker in McD in the US gets anything 12 to 18 USD per hour. Most live in rooms/apartments of their own and can afford cars

 

[SalimBhai]

I would go to the Gulf for maybe two years to pull the big tax-free salary. But I wouldn’t settle there.

As an American there is no such thing as tax free. We have to pay taxes on income regardless of what country

 

[SalimBhai]

To give some examples of how clueless some people are

A worker in a fast food place in Dubai or Abu Dhabi gets around 1500 Dirhams monthly, or 2000 Dhs for 10 hours work 6 days a week

That comes out to 500 US Dollars monthly. Housing is dorm style with 4 or 6 or 8 people in a small room

A worker in McD in the US gets anything 12 to 18 USD per hour. Most live in rooms/apartments of their own and can afford cars

If the gulf countries were not Muslim these posters would not be singing their praises .

 

[SalimBhai]

"The West won the world not by the superiority of its ideas or values or religion, but rather by its superiority in applying organized violence. Westerners often forget this fact, non-Westerners never do.”

This quote by Samuel Huntington sums the rise of the West.

I don’t know if you have read the whole book or just quoting his most famous quote. Samuel showed the non west countries in a very bad light.

 

[Technics 1210]

Standard of living in UAE is much better than the generic West, this is a fact, especially for the indeginous Emiratis.

In the West, minimum wage paid to fast food workers is a joke and 8+ people living in a house is the norm. Survival is all based on credit.

Give the immigrants and Asians in the East the same level of credit as you are offered in the West, and see the difference it makes.

Stop this nonsense about affordability in the West - it is all based on credit.

 

[SalimBhai]

It depends on what you mean success? Certain inventions have been great but most built on the back of research from other nations. Then we have sports, the PL , cricket, tennis etc which have been great for the world but these are a product of the people, not much to do with the government. This is for the UK and we need to remember the UK has NO to little natural resources. When a nation with so little becomes so rich its usually down to looting others.

The US also has great achievements such as man on the moon(if you believe it) etc.

The problem is NONE of these are of any great benefit to the planet or to other nations. They are just negligible successes when compared to the damage done to billions of people and hundreds of nations.

The world has now recognised this thus the new global world order being formed. In a decade or so its game over for the west.

Who does not believe in the moon landing

 

[SalimBhai]

Standard of living in UAE is much better than the generic West, this is a fact, especially for the indeginous Emiratis.

In the West, minimum wage paid to fast food workers is a joke and 8+ people living in a house is the norm. Survival is all based on credit.

Give the immigrants and Asians in the East the same level of credit as you are offered in the West, and see the difference it makes.

Stop this nonsense about affordability in the West - it is all based on credit.

Standard of living is not higher in uae on average than Say usa . Standard of education is not comparable between uae and usa . Women status according to UN is much lower than usa . Human rights within these two countries is not comparable . As an immigrant you can marry a local , start a business ( that is changing in some zones ). Labor laws are nonexistent in uae . There is almost zero innovation. All innovation is imported from the west or east Asia . Yes they have fancy cars and beautiful tall modern buildings ( UAE). . Your whole argument about credit, the less said the better.

 

[Robert]

Who does not believe in the moon landing

The conspiracy theorists who populate this place. It’s best to not engage.

Conspiracy theory seems to overlap with religion. As above, so below. If you think that there is some creator god overseeing everything, it’s an easy step to thinking that the world is run by Zionists / Illuminati / Soros / ERG / whatever elite you think is stopping you achieving.

I guess conspiracy theory is comforting - someone is to blame for all the bad things, but at least there is some sort of order. The idea that nobody is really in charge, and bad stuff happens for no reason, is profoundly scary to them.

I prefer the Oliver Stone model - big biz, the unions, the mob, military-industrial complex, intelligence agencies are an unruly horse that elected leaders can half-control with skill and discipline, but it can throw you at any time.

Part of that and part of coqc-up theory- bad things happen because good people fall down on the job.

 

[Technics 1210]

Some other pertinent points on the West.

1. The financial Crisis of 2008 hit Western banks hardest because they were leveraged up their eye balls in debt.
2. The cost of living crisis has hit the West hardest.
3. The West tops the list of relentless QE.
4. The West tops the list of both corporate and personal bankruptcies.
5. Affordability in the UK is at an all time low since records began (50 years).
6. West taxes its citizens from birth to after death, but has nothing to show for it.
7. Amreeka is voted the most racist country in the West, and even the world.
8. The rich get away with crime, but the poor pay the price.
9. Government debts are the highest in the West.

Reality is that the majority in the West work to survive, not work to live, and to top it off, all the state benefit system such as pensions and health, are one giant pyramid scam.

No credit -> No debt -> No West.

FACT.

 

[Robert]

Yes they have fancy cars and beautiful tall modern buildings ( UAE).

Which Western contractors build for them.

They don’t make anything. When the oil runs out, the gulf states will collapse back into desert. That’s why their rich elite are becoming property magnates in London.

 

[the Great Khan]

Exactly! People are so desperate! My cousin who was taunted his all life by his relatives for being 'lazy' and 'useless' and nobody was willing to give their daughter to him in marriage.

He tried getting married but he had no luck. However, right after coming to Hong Kong, the same aunt who used to taunt him told him to marry her daughter and now they are married. Heck, in my village in Pakistan, mothers are willing to marry off their daughters to 50/60 year old foreign-based Pakistani. One 50 year old British uncle has three under-23 wives!

Most on this forum have not lived in Pakistan and most have not even been to Pakistan. so they do not understand how incredibly lucky they are to be living in Europe!

Firstly as usual some of you get a bee in your bonnet of we dare criticise the west. Its not surprising since you've been conditioned to bow down to your Colonial masters.

What we are trying to ascertain in this thread if you care to bother to follow is the perception that the west especially the Europeans and the US are the good guys or not. They portray themselves as the defenders of human rights. They say they are democratic and its because of these values that they are so successful.

However if you read history which by the way they actually no longer teach properly on schools, the real story is alot different.

If you want to discuss why we in the west are so ungrateful please open up another thread and we can discuss it there. This thread is to discuss if the hypotheisis the OP has put forward is correct or not.

Please stick to the topic and try not to derail it with kahanis of your khala phupos and mamay.

 

[the Great Khan]

The conspiracy theorists who populate this place. It’s best to not engage.

Conspiracy theory seems to overlap with religion. As above, so below. If you think that there is some creator god overseeing everything, it’s an easy step to thinking that the world is run by Zionists / Illuminati / Soros / ERG / whatever elite you think is stopping you achieving.

I guess conspiracy theory is comforting - someone is to blame for all the bad things, but at least there is some sort of order. The idea that nobody is really in charge, and bad stuff happens for no reason, is profoundly scary to them.

I prefer the Oliver Stone model - big biz, the unions, the mob, military-industrial complex, intelligence agencies are an unruly horse that elected leaders can half-control with skill and discipline, but it can throw you at any time.

Part of that and part of coqc-up theory- bad things happen because good people fall down on the job.

I would agree with this one.

 

[Major]

how do posters see the crusades?

 

[Robert]

I would agree with this one.

Good gracious. Consensus is possible!

 

[Robert]

how do posters see the crusades?

The Popes wanted Jerusalem back in Christendom and invoked holy war several times.

A bunch of impoverished European nobles took this as an opportunity to land-grab.

 

[Babeikh]

They have done catastrophic damage to the world. Almost every single conflict that exists today, almost every single injustice that exists today, almost every single economic and social ill in the world can be traced back to the actions of the west.

The sooner western power ends the better it will be for the world and thankfully, western power and influence is declining and they don't have any answers to prevent the decline. They are finished.

 

[the Great Khan]

I would have left him in place though. At least women could get an education and the standard of living was going up. The UN-sanctioned no-fly zone enforced by NATO / Jordan / Qatar / UAE to stop Gaddafi killing civilians allowed the rebels to win.

Now the country is split in two by factions in Tobruk and Tripoli, with jihadi groups and tribal warlords controlling some areas.

I have a friend who is Libyan. He runs a nice pizza place where I get halal pizza. Lovely guy. Cambridge graduate. His children are highly educated. Two Cambridge graduates etc. All in great jobs. He was an anti gaddafi supporter. Hated him. Had to come over to England to avoid issues. He travels tripoli alot and has some businesses and Property with family.

He says that it was better under gaddafi. Even though he hated him. He says the west have destroyed his country and he was even saying he wouldn't mind if saif gaddafi would come back. He's still not a gaddafi fan and does blame him too but he believes the west shouldn't have done what they did..

And this is a guy who loves living here and appreciates the life he has managed to build...

 

[the Great Khan]

how do posters see the crusades?

Another topic but it was catastrophic for the islamic people. The wars lasted for about 200 years and the people in Egypt and the levant were devastated. It also created a desire for physical jihad and created enmity towards the white western Europeans.

It still resonates today.

 

[RexRex]

The West are without doubt the 'Good Guys' because they treat their own citizens with dignity and decency unlike in every other civilisation, unlike in every other empire in history.

 

[Robert]

I have a friend who is Libyan. He runs a nice pizza place where I get halal pizza. Lovely guy. Cambridge graduate. His children are highly educated. Two Cambridge graduates etc. All in great jobs. He was an anti gaddafi supporter. Hated him. Had to come over to England to avoid issues. He travels tripoli alot and has some businesses and Property with family.

He says that it was better under gaddafi. Even though he hated him. He says the west have destroyed his country and he was even saying he wouldn't mind if saif gaddafi would come back. He's still not a gaddafi fan and does blame him too but he believes the west shouldn't have done what they did..

And this is a guy who loves living here and appreciates the life he has managed to build...

Desperately sad and shameful. Iraq all over again.

Clearer every day that sometimes a despot can be a stabilising force. While he oppressed his people he keeps more destructive forces in check.

 

[Pakpak]

Libya was a dump. Gaddafi was a psychopath . I dont . The general population lived in total fear of the regime.

My Eastern European landlord spent decade in Libya when Gaddafi was there. Said it was heaven compared to now. Now there is no Libya. Just some land ravaged by terror groups