Are you in favour of women wearing Hijab in public?

[Pakistanian]

Then why do most of the modest Hijab wearing women have such heavy make up? Even in Pakistani culture the scarf covers like half of the head with a clown like face.

It is human nature to show of one's traits to attract a mate. Muslim, Non Muslim has nothing to do with it. We live with this hypocrisy and force/convince the women to do so too, men are allowed to show their features (to an extent) but women are not?

If all these Hijab wearing women are such pillars of modesty, stop wearing make up, doing your eyebrows, waxing your upper lip etc.

He's not implying that all hijabis are modest or that being a hijabi means you automatically uphold a modest state of mind. What he means is that hijab in the Qur'an isn't just a garb but it could mean many different things that's why you may have heard the phrase " Hijab for men" - of course men do no wear hijab it means to be modest and not leer at women.

 

[Chasing_The_Dream]

It’s ironic that only after my female cousins left Pakistan for studies, marriage, or immigration to Western countries did they don the hijab which they never did so while living in Pakistan. Personally, IMO it’s wrong to attract attention to oneself and especially in this day and age in Europe and North America it’s better to blend in so as not to cause harm to oneself as has been the case for the past few years with crimes against females wearing hijab who’ve been targeted by ignorant people.

FYI, it’s a bit ironic that nuns aren’t being targeted especially in Europe where in some places, the hijab is not permitted; after all a nun’s head dress is very similar to a hijab ...

 

[Chasing_The_Dream]

It’s ironic that only after my female cousins left Pakistan for studies, marriage, or immigration to Western countries did they don the hijab which they never did so while living in Pakistan. Personally, IMO it’s wrong to attract attention to oneself and especially in this day and age in Europe and North America where it’s better to blend in so as not to cause harm to oneself as has been the case for the past few years with crimes against females wearing hijab who’ve been targeted by ignorant people or skinheads.

FYI, it’s a bit ironic that nuns habits are not considered illegal especially in Europe where in some places, the hijab is not permitted; after all a nun’s head dress is very similar to a hijab ...

 

[Chasing_The_Dream]

Personally I have many female cousins who never wore a hijab when living in Pakistan and only did so after immigrating to North America or Europe. In some cases it’s a fashion statement and in other cases it’s considered rebelling against a cultural status quo ... maybe even trying to come closer to one’s Muslim identity. However wearing the hijab has been problematic for some females in the West who’ve been attacked by ignorant people and skinheads. Therefore I am of the belief when in Rome do as the Romans do - at least not go overboard by bringing unnecessary attention to oneself and become a target of moronic hooligans. One more important point, in the Islamic faith it’s more important for a female to lower her gaze which according to some Islamic scholars is the genuine hijab of the eyes Vs simply covering one’s head.

 

[Madplayer]

Then why do most of the modest Hijab wearing women have such heavy make up? Even in Pakistani culture the scarf covers like half of the head with a clown like face.

It is human nature to show of one's traits to attract a mate. Muslim, Non Muslim has nothing to do with it. We live with this hypocrisy and force/convince the women to do so too, men are allowed to show their features (to an extent) but women are not?

If all these Hijab wearing women are such pillars of modesty, stop wearing make up, doing your eyebrows, waxing your upper lip etc.

I didnt say all hijab wearing women are modest. I said hijab is more than the headscarf. Its a state of mind which upholds values of modesty. You can be modest even without wearing the headscarf. However, when a woman is modest and has high level of Imaan, it would naturally culminate into her wearing a headscarf or whatever because thats an outward expression/extention of Islamic concept of hijab.

Secondly, there are quite a lot of traits in human nature which are regulated in order to ensure a smooth functioning of a society. I agree it has nothing to do with being muslim or non muslim. Almost all religions prescribed regulatory rules. Even non-religious sociologists say the same thing about regulation of human behaviour because according to them, nature didnt intend for us to live in societies which are artificially created. Hence, we have to make a lot of compromises to ensure a collective mental and physical health of such societies.

 

[Madplayer]

He's not implying that all hijabis are modest or that being a hijabi means you automatically uphold a modest state of mind. What he means is that hijab in the Qur'an isn't just a garb but it could mean many different things that's why you may have heard the phrase " Hijab for men" - of course men do no wear hijab it means to be modest and not leer at women.

Exactly. And like i said earlier, hijab was mentioned first for men and second for women.

Having said that, we arent supposed to look down upon women who dont wear the hijab. Many women try to do their best in the environment which they live. I have immense respect for muslims living in non-muslim countries who are trying their best to hold on to their faith against a lot of odds. Especially the women. Would i then judge them for not wearing a hijab when i know how difficult it is for them in that environment? Never could i stoop so low.

 

[in_cutter]

They say Islam ‘opresses’ women. Yet here we have posters that are against them wearing a garment over their head. That’s oppression.

 

[imrankhannsu]

I am in favour as long as it is in a safe enviornment and they will not a target.

What I dont understand is that its against one's own rights if they dont have the right to wear what they chose. In France it seems one has the right to chose to be naked rather than be covered

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

So what about Islamic or third world countries? Does anyone have insight as to whether hijab improves safety outside of the developed nations?

Pakistan? Arab countries? Africa? India?

 

[Realromeo]

As a Muslim, I fully support our women using Hijab. They are supposed to cover their hairs anyway.

Women sometimes get assaulted because they don't cover themselves well. If they dress properly, they can reduce it.

This gotta be a troll account.......

 

[sweep_shot]

This gotta be a troll account.......

Just because you do not agree with my viewpoint doesn't mean I am a troll.

I fully believe that assaults on women can be reduced globally if women dress properly and behave modestly.

 

[Pakpak]

Just because you do not agree with my viewpoint doesn't mean I am a troll.

I fully believe that assaults on women can be reduced globally if women dress properly and behave modestly.

What a nonsense post. If this was the case places like India wouldn't have such widespread rape against women. Same goes for Pakistan.

 

[sweep_shot]

What a nonsense post. If this was the case places like India wouldn't have such widespread rape against women. Same goes for Pakistan.

Women in India don't dress modestly. They wear sharee and other revealing clothes. I don't think rape is a huge problem in Pakistan (correct me if I am wrong).

 

[Realromeo]

Just because you do not agree with my viewpoint doesn't mean I am a troll.

I fully believe that assaults on women can be reduced globally if women dress properly and behave modestly.

Please look at the stats before speaking.

 

[sweep_shot]

Please look at the stats before speaking.

Can you find many rape incidents in Saudi Arabia? It is because Saudis know how to deal with criminals.

Here are the statistics: https://www.nationmaster.com/country-info/stats/Crime/Rape-rate.

Muslims countries have less rapes than other "civilized" countries. Please see the stats and let me know what you think.

 

[chacha kashmiri]

So what about Islamic or third world countries? Does anyone have insight as to whether hijab improves safety outside of the developed nations?

Pakistan? Arab countries? Africa? India?

Still seems to be quite a bit of rape in Sudan,CAR, Congo, Kashmir and Burma
In the Amazons Forests, seems to be ok however

 

[Pakpak]

Women in India don't dress modestly. They wear sharee and other revealing clothes. I don't think rape is a huge problem in Pakistan (correct me if I am wrong).

Not every woman wears sarees in India, a vast majority don't. Another Indian perhaps can confirm it. [MENTION=132715]Varun[/MENTION] [MENTION=141093]big_gamer007[/MENTION]. As for Pakistan countless women don't even report it out of shame, 'honor' and humiliation. The same goes for Saudi Arabia, its never reported and when maids are assaulted nothing happens so you can see why.

Ask a Muslim woman if she feels safe alone walking down a road in the West or alone walking down a road or a chowk in a Pakistan (or even Indian city). You'll know your answer. My mother, cousins, all are Hijabis. There is zero chance on this earth I'd be okay with them walking in the evening alone after dark in Pakistan against the UK and the same goes for them.

 

[sweep_shot]

Not every woman wears sarees in India, a vast majority don't. Another Indian perhaps can confirm it. [MENTION=132715]Varun[/MENTION] [MENTION=141093]big_gamer007[/MENTION]. As for Pakistan countless women don't even report it out of shame, 'honor' and humiliation. The same goes for Saudi Arabia, its never reported and when maids are assaulted nothing happens so you can see why.

Ask a Muslim woman if she feels safe alone walking down a road in the West or alone walking down a road or a chowk in a Pakistan (or even Indian city). You'll know your answer. My mother, cousins, all are Hijabis. There is zero chance on this earth I'd be okay with them walking in the evening alone after dark in Pakistan against the UK and the same goes for them.

This is news for me. I never read/heard rape was a big issue in Pakistan. First time I am reading this.

Personally, I think that Muslim males shouldn't do this kind of crap. It is against everything our faith stands for. People who do this should be punished severely.

 

[Pakpak]

This is news for me. I never read/heard rape was a big issue in Pakistan. First time I am reading this.

Personally, I think that Muslim males shouldn't do this kind of crap. It is against everything our faith stands for. People who do this should be punished severely.

When a woman can feel safe walking around on their own in Pakistan like our women do in the West then yeah we'll know we don't have any problem. But with the amount of tharkis in mohallas, I am sure everyone knows what I am talking about. I remember Mall Centauraus in Islamabad had to ban single men for being constant tharkis.

NO male should do it. And rape isn't all about sex or uncontrollable lust either, which is a big misconception. Countless women are raped during home invasions or simply by being at the wrong place at the wrong time. Its about power. Majority of the women raped in the West aren't frollying about in skimpy skirts, they're normal women. Rape a lot of times is about power and control. Read interviews of serial rapists who say the same thing.

 

[AdamM97]

Women in India don't dress modestly. They wear sharee and other revealing clothes. I don't think rape is a huge problem in Pakistan (correct me if I am wrong).

Rape is actually a problem in Pakistan but i don’t think it’s as bad as in India.

 

[big_gamer007]

Not every woman wears sarees in India, a vast majority don't. Another Indian perhaps can confirm it. [MENTION=132715]Varun[/MENTION] [MENTION=141093]big_gamer007[/MENTION]. As for Pakistan countless women don't even report it out of shame, 'honor' and humiliation. The same goes for Saudi Arabia, its never reported and when maids are assaulted nothing happens so you can see why.

Ask a Muslim woman if she feels safe alone walking down a road in the West or alone walking down a road or a chowk in a Pakistan (or even Indian city). You'll know your answer. My mother, cousins, all are Hijabis. There is zero chance on this earth I'd be okay with them walking in the evening alone after dark in Pakistan against the UK and the same goes for them.

Different places women wear different clothes in India. High number of woman wear sarees but nowadays in cities especially Delhi/Bangalore/Mumbai woman are working and don't wear sarees in daily life. They wear it during functions.

On the topic:
Modesty in eyes of people. Indians in generally are sex deprived and have a conservative upbringing. This whole ideology of linking clothes with rapes is the reason why rapes happen.
A lot of factors are responsible for rapes in India and clothes is not one of them.

Entire subcontinent is hell for women I guess, nothing will change in next 50 years and after that we won't be alive anyways.

 

[big_gamer007]

Rape is actually a problem in Pakistan but i don’t think it’s as bad as in India.

Both countries are same in terms of mindset and conservative upbringing. Both set of countries have sexually deprived people because of conservative nature.
Both countries have a power culture associated and laws are never implemented properly. People have a sense of being able to get away with anything.

Like I said in previous post sub continent is a hellhole for woman. It will take few decades or maybe a century to change so no point comparing India with Pakistan or vice versa. Both countries are equally bad.

 

[chacha kashmiri]

Both countries are same in terms of mindset and conservative upbringing. Both set of countries have sexually deprived people because of conservative nature.
Both countries have a power culture associated and laws are never implemented properly. People have a sense of being able to get away with anything.

Like I said in previous post sub continent is a hellhole for woman. It will take few decades or maybe a century to change so no point comparing India with Pakistan or vice versa. Both countries are equally bad.

Looks like both countries have gone backwards over the last 100 years

 

[AdamM97]

Both countries are same in terms of mindset and conservative upbringing. Both set of countries have sexually deprived people because of conservative nature.
Both countries have a power culture associated and laws are never implemented properly. People have a sense of being able to get away with anything.

Like I said in previous post sub continent is a hellhole for woman. It will take few decades or maybe a century to change so no point comparing India with Pakistan or vice versa. Both countries are equally bad.

True.

 

[CricketCartoons]

Not in favour of the hijab, as all it does it cover your hair. A fig leaf covers more than a hijab. I favour the niqab as it covers the full body. Especially for indian women who live in a country where sexual harrassment is normalized and is perpetuated in the indian popular culture.

 

[PaceOverEverything]

Jhee batayay is Islam ka kya naam hai jisme hijab wajib nahi?

 

[Justcrazy]

It is an argument. These are dumb things to wear. Ban them.

who decides what is dumb to wear and what not ?

 

[Green Patriot]

Its their choice and there is absolutely no room for anybody else's opinion on it.

 

[RajBan]

Regardless of religion or culture, males who are concerned about modesty of women and hence strongly endorse hijab, burkha, ghunghat etc, why don't they wear the same as well? It certainly will demonstrate their conviction to the cause and they can lead by example.

 

[cricketjoshila]

Anything that doesnot cover the face and is not a security issue should be fine.

 

[RajBan]

That's a weak argument that hijab or any cover should be used to restrict molestation or rape. So convenient. Some other intelligent person will come with an argument in future why not men are blindfolded so that rape does not occur. It will be difficult to argue against that as well as it will be meant to put a lid on rape incidents by the same logic.

Rape is a complex subject and not just limited to what clothes women wear. It's predominantly an age old expression of primal insitincts, power and authority where women in general are deemed as property to be acquired by hook or crook in a male dominated society.

End of day I can understand if it's a spiritual for women to wear cover but it should be their own choice without anybody telling them. In case any male feels obliged then he should observe it as well.

 

[anikrc1]

Women in India don't dress modestly. They wear sharee and other revealing clothes. I don't think rape is a huge problem in Pakistan (correct me if I am wrong).

Height of victim blaming.

 

[sweep_shot]

Regardless of religion or culture, males who are concerned about modesty of women and hence strongly endorse hijab, burkha, ghunghat etc, why don't they wear the same as well? It certainly will demonstrate their conviction to the cause and they can lead by example.

Males don't need to cover as males are not as beautiful as women. Women are generally quite pretty and hence covering is more practical. Also, men don't get harassed/raped like women do; men generally can defend themselves.

At the end of the day, women need to be more responsible because they are more vulnerable than men. It is all about showing common sense. A woman should not appear in a way that can draw attention from a pervert/rapist/psycho.

 

[anikrc1]

Males don't need to cover as males are not as beautiful as women. Women are generally quite pretty and hence covering is more practical. Also, men don't get harassed/raped like women do; men generally can defend themselves.

At the end of the day, women need to be more responsible because they are more vulnerable than men. It is all about showing common sense. A woman should not appear in a way that can draw attention from a pervert/rapist/psycho.

Given that it's mostly men who rape, a better solution would be to ban men from public places

 

[anikrc1]

Can you find many rape incidents in Saudi Arabia? It is because Saudis know how to deal with criminals.

Here are the statistics: https://www.nationmaster.com/country-info/stats/Crime/Rape-rate.

Muslims countries have less rapes than other "civilized" countries. Please see the stats and let me know what you think.

Muslim countries have less rapes than other countries because you need 4 male witness for rape case to uphold.

 

[sweep_shot]

Look at this story: https://www.dallasnews.com/business...nes-nearly-kicked-flight-inappropriate-romper.

This woman basically tried to travel almost naked. American Airlines asked her to cover her body or she would be kicked out. This is the type of woman I am referring to. I am not referring to all women.

I am strongly against this kind of behavior.

 

[anikrc1]

#

Yeah, so i just read about cases where the woman was punished By court for being raped in saudi arab. And then we have posters saying saudi arab observes less rape.

 

[RajBan]

Males don't need to cover as males are not as beautiful as women. Women are generally quite pretty and hence covering is more practical. Also, men don't get harassed/raped like women do; men generally can defend themselves.

At the end of the day, women need to be more responsible because they are more vulnerable than men. It is all about showing common sense. A woman should not appear in a way that can draw attention from a pervert/rapist/psycho.

Ha ha. Women need to be more responsible , they are more beautiful, they are more vulnerable blah blah blah. So people who commit crime has zero accountability of their deeds while people who are victims need to be more responsible. Maybe we need to cover small kids as well as they are more vulnerable than grown up women. As I said it is pretty convenient argument which is hard to defeat.

In this forum it is expected that posters express their opinion with more sense of accountability and independent thought and not just express propaganda that they have been fed with.

By the way not all men are vulnerable to be a rapist all the time. They are perfectly ok around women friends , colleagues and even strangers in dresses that they feel comfortable with. I believe most men in this forum will be in that group. How about you?

 

[anikrc1]

And ofcourse then there is the case for marital rape. Forget about 3d world countries. I read a survey conducted in america where women answered no to being raped by husband, but answered yes when asked if her husband forced her to have sex ever.

 

[sweep_shot]

Ha ha. Women need to be more responsible , they are more beautiful, they are more vulnerable blah blah blah. So people who commit crime has zero accountability of their deeds while people who are victims need to be more responsible. Maybe we need to cover small kids as well as they are more vulnerable than grown up women. As I said it is pretty convenient argument which is hard to defeat.

In this forum it is expected that posters express their opinion with more sense of accountability and independent thought and not just express propaganda that they have been fed with.

By the way not all men are vulnerable to be a rapist all the time. They are perfectly ok around women friends , colleagues and even strangers in dresses that they feel comfortable with. I believe most men in this forum will be in that group. How about you?

You are obviously correct. Not all males are bad. I was only referring to bad males and irresponsible females. Both are bad for society and we must ensure they are in check.

I have female friends. I have done school projects with many females. I don't think they consider me as a bad person.

 

[anikrc1]

You are obviously correct. Not all males are bad. I was only referring to bad males and irresponsible females. Both are bad for society and we must ensure they are in check.

I have female friends. I have done school projects with many females. I don't think they consider me as a bad person.

The male patriarch deciding what's good for woman

 

[RajBan]

You are obviously correct. Not all males are bad. I was only referring to bad males and irresponsible females. Both are bad for society and we must ensure they are in check.

I have female friends. I have done school projects with many females. I don't think they consider me as a bad person.

If you are in school or college, I won't be too critical of you. it's not that I knew it all when I was in college myself. I am sure you are good at heart, just do not always believe and follow what others say at it's face value. Try to analyze it from a 360 degree viewpoint and not necessarily always through the lens of morality and right/wrong or even through the lens of our previous generation. You have age on your side to go around the world , talk to people and develop an inclusive viewpoint which I am sure you will in due course of time if you keep yourself open to alternate ideas and cultures.

 

[Theo_14]

Who are we to form an opinion whether someone else has the right to wear something or not?

If a woman wants to wear a hijab, that is her right and freedom of choice to do so. Men should not worry what women should and should not wear and how they should wear it.

I find it laughable when men or even aunties have the time to question women wearing the hijab but pinpointing their heavy make up. I’m sorry but we all sin but at the same time do a consistent good deed - we are in no ranking to judge anyone.

No hijab? no opinion.

 

[Pakpak]

The male patriarch deciding what's good for woman

https://www.parhlo.com/three-brothers-rape-sister-for-two-years/

She must be wearing 'bad' clothes too.

 

[Uzi]

Any woman has a right to wear whatever she wishes. I personally don't like the full face veil, but if a woman chooses to wear it out of her own freewill than that is her choice.

In addition the hijab is fine - nothing wrong with it.

People need to focus on their own lives rather than worrying about what women are wearing.

 

[Madplayer]

Muslim countries have less rapes than other countries because you need 4 male witness for rape case to uphold.

Shaykh [MENTION=141246]anikrc1[/MENTION] , Would you mind sharing with us the source of this ruling that you as an expert on Islam are talking about so that we common muslims also come to know about it.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Muslim countries have less rapes than other countries because you need 4 male witness for rape case to uphold.

So do you think there is more rape in Arab countries where women wear hijab than in south Asia? India seems to have a worse reputation for rape in current times, do you think the country is being maligned unfairly?

 

[anikrc1]

Rape is a crime of power not crime of lust. The convicts of the infamous delhi rape case was interviewed and they said the woman deserved it because she was out at night. Their main intention was to show her her place. Also refer to the use of rape in sports discussion. Bayern raped barcelona- it signifies domination. Another problematic discourse is the monsterification of the rapist. We have to acknowledge that rape is born out of our society. The society teaches us to view woman as property. The only way to lessen rape is to educate young boys that a woman has full autonomy over her body , whether she is wearing bikini or burqa. Also the mentality of associating a woman's worth with virginity has to go.

 

[anikrc1]

Shaykh [MENTION=141246]anikrc1[/MENTION] , Would you mind sharing with us the source of this ruling that you as an expert on Islam are talking about so that we common muslims also come to know about it.

Apologies, looks like i was misinformed about this. But my other points still stand. There are examples of courts in saudi punishing the rape victim making it unlikely for a victim to approach legal system.

 

[Madplayer]

Apologies, looks like i was misinformed about this. But my other points still stand. There are examples of courts in saudi punishing the rape victim making it unlikely for a victim to approach legal system.

Its okay. Glad that you fact checked it now.

Saudi is just 1 country and it isnt synonymous with Islam. Saudi didnt allow women to drive up until recently. In which other muslim country do you find such a law? Saudi shouldn't be looked at as some prime example of muslim behaviour.

Muslim nations have had more female heads of states than United states of America which has had zero. Heck the highest number of husband beating wives are in muslim countries like Egypt

This is not to say that women dont face problems in muslim countries. That would be dishonest to say. However, some people like to present muslim countries as some hell hole for women which they are not. Women arent any more miserable in these countries than they are in any other country of the world.

 

[Itachi]

You are obviously correct. Not all males are bad. I was only referring to bad males and irresponsible females. Both are bad for society and we must ensure they are in check.

I have female friends. I have done school projects with many females. I don't think they consider me as a bad person.

Just a simple advice. You are looking at a very complex psychological phenomenon from a very simplistic point of view.

People shouldn't do this, people shouldn't do that. It shouldn't be like this, it shouldn't be like that.

You are talking about an idealistic world where everything goes according to rules. But real world is very different.

Good and bad are relative itself. A person can be a good father yet he can be a miserable husband. Which persona you will choose?

You have yet to realize the ugly side of the real world.

 

[sweep_shot]

Just a simple advice. You are looking at a very complex psychological phenomenon from a very simplistic point of view.

People shouldn't do this, people shouldn't do that. It shouldn't be like this, it shouldn't be like that.

You are talking about an idealistic world where everything goes according to rules. But real world is very different.

Good and bad are relative itself. A person can be a good father yet he can be a miserable husband. Which persona you will choose?

You have yet to realize the ugly side of the real world.

You are correct. It is not very simple but then again it is also not that complex.

I am a person of law and order. I don't support degeneracy. If you don't speak against degeneracy, it can turn a tumor into a cancer. We currently have a cancer in our society and it is called feminism.

 

[Gharib Aadmi]

Women should have the right to wear what they want. Unbelievable how some posters here want to force women not to wear the hijab. They are as bad as those that would force women to cover the head. Two sides of the same coin.

 

[Gharib Aadmi]

I generally find the hijab to be unnecessary, unattractive and an extension of Arabism that is taking over all other indigenous Muslim cultures. Back in the old days before this onslaught of Arabism came about most Pakistani ladies would dress in traditional Pakistani attire feeling very safe. Now they are all wearing abaya's, niqab's and hijab's for goodness sake in their attempts to be like Arab's that to them means being better Muslim's. If a hijab makes her safer then so does a dupatta, a hijab in today's Islamophobic world also makes her open to discrimination as well. I always support the law of the country that in this case allows it to be worn. No spouse of mines will be wearing it though.

Pakistani women don't need lectures about preserving there culture from Pakistani men. They wear traditional Pakistani clothes with pride whether they are rich or poor, whether they are religious or liberal. What percent of Pakistani men Middle Class and above wear Pakistani clothes, and what percent wear Western clothes?

What would you do if your spouse after marriage decides she wants to wear a hijab? Divorce her?

 

[Gharib Aadmi]

I have noticed a trend among Indians (non-muslim ones) to act like experts on Islam by quoting scriptures (thanks to google) they've barely read neither have they studied Islamic theology. Most schools of thoughts in Islam and shayks believe women are not required to cover their face - veiling and hijab are two different things. Even if you for the sake of argument we agree that the hadiths you quoted are correct that doesn't become the law because Muslims have never agreed on one fiqh, one school of thought or one sect of Islam. Islam is not a monolith, there are many different branches and sects within Islam, there are multiple scholarly interpretations within the Muslim world. I'd recommend you and some of our Hindu friends that barely know Islam to do what we Muslims do with regards to Hinduism - just stick to what you know best and not try to act like an expert on our faith.

I have seen the same thing. We could quote things from Manusmriti and put them on the defensive about their religion. But the Pakistanis, at least the ones who grew up in the West, I have never seen them do that out of respect for their religion.

Best to ignore the ones who do this on a consistent basis. Maybe give the benefit of the doubt to ones who are truly interested.

 

[troodon]

Looks like many of the posters here do not trust hadiths. I hope all of you pray 5 times a day as it comes from the Hadith.

Forget Quran, Muslims cannot even agree upon Hadiths which are just the sayings of the Prophet. Saying things like schools of thoughts, Fiqh’s is just a cop out.

What is the point of the final message of God if nobody even understands it? I don’t post from hate sites. I have given the ink and it is a Muslim site.

 

[troodon]

I have seen the same thing. We could quote things from Manusmriti and put them on the defensive about their religion. But the Pakistanis, at least the ones who grew up in the West, I have never seen them do that out of respect for their religion.

Best to ignore the ones who do this on a consistent basis. Maybe give the benefit of the doubt to ones who are truly interested.

I don’t subscribe to any religion. So you people assuming I am a Hindu is silly. I am only born in a Hindu household.

Islam claims to be the best and the only true religions and also Prophet Muhammad as the best man ever.

When such claims are made, it only attracts more scrutiny.

 

[PakLFC]

Pakistani women don't need lectures about preserving there culture from Pakistani men. They wear traditional Pakistani clothes with pride whether they are rich or poor, whether they are religious or liberal. What percent of Pakistani men Middle Class and above wear Pakistani clothes, and what percent wear Western clothes?

What would you do if your spouse after marriage decides she wants to wear a hijab? Divorce her?

They do! If Pak women can make comments on Pak men then so can we. Western attire does not symbolise Arab superiority or being a better Muslim as most Pak people think of Arab attire. In Pak most men do wear shalwar kameez from what I see unless it is a rule at work to dress in shirt and tie. I will convince my spouse and remind her that one condition I married her was no to Arabism.

 

[Gharib Aadmi]

They do! If Pak women can make comments on Pak men then so can we.

Most Pak women dont care that Pak men wear western attire.

Western attire does not symbolise Arab superiority or being a better Muslim as most Pak people think of Arab attire.

Western attire is worn by Pak men because they think its comfortable and modern. and they view traditional clothes as backward. Have you been to a dawat, or social gathering almost all women wear Pak clothes even if its in the west, while the men wear western clothes.


In Pak most men do wear shalwar kameez from what I see unless it is a rule at work to dress in shirt and tie.
This is true, but I said Middle Class and above. Go to posh areas and you will see younger guys wearning almost excuslively western attire.

I will convince my spouse and remind her that one condition I married her was no to Arabism.

Also keep in mind most Pak women who cover there head are wearing dupatta's, not a hijab. Also the women who are wearing bukha and niqab, which would be a fringe minority in the middle class and above, are wearing traditional Pakistani clothes underneath it.

 

[sweep_shot]

Looks like many of the posters here do not trust hadiths. I hope all of you pray 5 times a day as it comes from the Hadith.

Forget Quran, Muslims cannot even agree upon Hadiths which are just the sayings of the Prophet. Saying things like schools of thoughts, Fiqh’s is just a cop out.

What is the point of the final message of God if nobody even understands it? I don’t post from hate sites. I have given the ink and it is a Muslim site.

A few things I need to clarify with you:

1) I pray 5 times a day. Alhamdulillah. All Muslims have to do it and it is mandatory.

2) Hadith does not have same weight as Quran. Quran is divine and it is from Allah (SWT). Hadiths were collected many years after our prophet (PBUH) died. A lot of hadiths are inaccurate/weak because they didn't come from reliable sources and some are fake (people made those up). Hadith is important but Quran is superior and unaltered.

3) Message of Islam is very clear. It is about strict monotheism. We only worship God. Complexities may arise with other minor issues. Main message is clear.

 

[Gharib Aadmi]

Looks like many of the posters here do not trust hadiths.

Yes not everyone believes in them. Some people feel they where meant only for a certain timeframe. Others feel that alot of them are fake, others believe in all of them. There is no consensus.

I hope all of you pray 5 times a day as it comes from the Hadith.

Not every Muslim prays 5 times a day. Some like me might only pray a few times a year. You dont get to decide whose a Muslim and whose not.

Forget Quran, Muslims cannot even agree upon Hadiths which are just the sayings of the Prophet. Saying things like schools of thoughts, Fiqh’s is just a cop out.

Yes since they cant agree, that means there are different schools of thought. Like Christians have different schools of thoughts.

What is the point of the final message of God if nobody even understands it? I don’t post from hate sites. I have given the ink and it is a Muslim site.

What would be the point of a higher power telling you exactly what to do? Its like getting a parrot to repeat the words you say. One could make a case that the higher power is simply providing you with a guide, and is testing you.

.

 

[troodon]

A few things I need to clarify with you:

1) I pray 5 times a day. Alhamdulillah. All Muslims have to do it and it is mandatory.

2) Hadith does not have same weight as Quran. Quran is divine and it is from Allah (SWT). Hadiths were collected many years after our prophet (PBUH) died. A lot of hadiths are inaccurate/weak because they didn't come from reliable sources and some are fake (people made those up). Hadith is important but Quran is superior and unaltered.

3) Message of Islam is very clear. It is about strict monotheism. We only worship God. Complexities may arise with other minor issues. Main message is clear.

You pray 5 times a day because it was in Hadith. Either you trust all Hadith or reject it come. You cannot pick and choose as per your convenience. I only post Sahih Hadith.

Hadiths were also transmitted by oral tradition much like Quran. Quran was also never written down during the time of the Prophet.

Anyways, here are the verses about Hijab and niqab in Quran.


After “hijab of the eyes” came the order describing the dress code for women:

وَ لاَ يُبْدِيْنَ زِيْنَتَهُنَّ إِلاَّ مَا ظَهَرَ مِنْهَا وَ لْيَضْرِبْنَ بِخُمُرِهِنَّ عَلىَ جُيُوْبِهِنَّ...
“...and not display their beauty except what is apparent, and they should place their khumur over their bosoms...”

There are two issues about this sentence.

(1) What is the meaning of “khumur” used in this verse?
Khumur خُمُرٌ is plural of khimarخِمَارٌ , the veil covering the head. See any Arabic dictionary like Lisanu ’l-‘Arab, Majma‘u ’l-Bahrayn or al-Munjid.

Al-Munjid, which is the most popular dictionary in the Arab world, defines al-khimar as “something with which a woman conceals her head —ما تغطى به المرأة رأسها .” Fakhru ’d-Din al-Turayhi in Majma‘u ’l-Bahrayn (which is a dictionary of Qur’anic and hadith terms) defines al-khimar as “scarf, and it is known as such because the head is covered with it.”2

So the word khimar, by definition, means a piece of cloth that covers the head.

(2) Then what does the clause “placing the khumur over the bosoms” mean?
According to the commentators of the Qur’an, the women of Medina in the pre-Islamic era used to put their khumur over the head with the two ends tucked behind and tied at the back of the neck, in the process exposing their ears and neck. By saying that, “place the khumur over the bosoms,” Almighty Allah ordered the women to let the two ends of their headgear extend onto their bosoms so that they conceal their ears, the neck, and the upper part of the bosom also.3

This is confirmed by the way the Muslim women of the Prophet’s era understood this commandment of Almighty Allah. The Sunni sources quote Ummu ’l-mu’minin ‘A’isha, the Prophet’s wife, as follows: “I have not seen women better than those of al-Ansar (the inhabitants of Medina): when this verse was revealed, all of them got hold of their aprons, tore them apart, and used them to cover their heads...”4

The meaning of khimar and the context in which the verse was revealed clearly talks about concealing the head and then using the loose ends of the scarf to conceal the neck and the bosom. It is absurd to believe that the Qur’an would use the word khimar (which, by definition, means a cloth that covers the head) only to conceal the bosom with the exclusion of the head! It would be like saying to put on your shirt only around the belly or the waist without covering the chest!

Finally the verse goes on to give the list of the mahram – male family members in whose presence the hijab is not required, such as the husband, the father, the father-in-law, the son(s), and others.

The Second Verse
In Chapter 33 known as al-Ahzab, verse 59, Allah gives the following command to Prophet Muhammad:

يَا أَيُّهَا النَّبِيُّ, قُلْ لأَزْوَاجِكَ وَ بَنَاتِكَ وَ نِسآءِ الْمُؤْمِنِيْنَ: يُدْنِيْنَ عَلَيْهِنَّ مِنْ جَلاَبِيْبِهِنَّ...
“O Prophet! Say to your wives, your daughters, and the women of the believers that: they should let down upon themselves their jalabib.”

What is the meaning of “jalabib”?
Jalabib جَلاَبِيْبٌ is the plural of jilbabجِلْبَابٌ , which means a loose outer garment. See any Arabic dictionary like Lisanu ’l-‘Arab, Majma‘u ’l-Bahrayn or al-Munjid.

Al-Munjid, for instance, defines jilbab as “the shirt or a wide dress—القميص أو الثوب الواسع.” While al-Turayhi, in Majma‘u ’l-Bahrayn, defines it as “a wide dress, wider than the scarf and shorter than a robe, that a woman puts upon her head and lets it down on her bosom...”5

This means that the Islamic dress code for women does not only consist of a scarf that covers the head, the neck and the bosom; it also includes the overall dress that should be long and loose.


https://www.al-islam.org/hijab-musl...ultural-sayyid-muhammad-rizvi/quran-and-hijab

 

[sweep_shot]

Troodon,

You do not get to define who is Muslim and who is not. I find it funny that you claim to know more about Islam than those who practice it daily. You are not even a Muslim.

You have no clue about Islam; you don't know the schools of thoughts. Al-Islam is a Shia website, BTW. They have different methods than Sunni.

 

[sweep_shot]

It is like me trying to fly a plane using manual (without having any flying experience). Stop making a fool out of yourself, Troodon.

 

[Pakistanian]

Looks like many of the posters here do not trust hadiths. I hope all of you pray 5 times a day as it comes from the Hadith.

Forget Quran, Muslims cannot even agree upon Hadiths which are just the sayings of the Prophet. Saying things like schools of thoughts, Fiqh’s is just a cop out.

What is the point of the final message of God if nobody even understands it? I don’t post from hate sites. I have given the ink and it is a Muslim site.

You didn't bother to respond to my comment or even quote me cause you have no way to refute what I said and are afraid being owned again. I'll repeat what I said before in the simplest words for you - Islam is a religion with many sects and schools of thoughts, each with their own fiqh (laws), theology and interpretations of the Qur'an and Sunnah (traditions of Muhammad PBUH).

Here are some argument-al fallacies you've been committing on this thread constantly either out of ignorance or maliciousness, I'd encourage to read this whole post before replying to me (if you dare):

1. You keep assuming all Muslims on this thread belong to one sect and school of thought, probably Sunni - Hannafi going off your comments.
- Not all Pakistanis or Muslims on this forum are Sunni. While I am one, this forum is very diverse so to assume just one position of Islam you're implying only one school of thought and sect is the right one, you're basically doing the exact same thing extremists such as the Taliban and ISIS are doing which assuming the authority of deciding who is or isn't Muslim.
- If your gripe with is with Sunni Islam then go ahead and state that clearly because your whole argument is against Sunni - Islama and that too of one of school thought.
- You keep posting Hadiths but you're unware that there are Pakistani Shias too and Shias do not recognize the Sahih Sittah (6 authentic hadiths) and have their own hadith collection and they also make 5 prayers a day (3 times a day as opposed to 5 times) so by attacking Islam based off the hadiths you're implying that Shias are not Muslim a view held among extremists. Jinnah who split India was also from the Shia sect.
- Ismailis are also considered Muslims according to both the Amman message by the Imam-e-Ka'aba and the Govt of Pakistan and even by India, so you're implying they're not Muslim because they don't follow the Hadiths, have their own prayer style and don't pray 5 times a day as the only basis for being Muslim is believing that there is no creator but Allah and that Muhammad is his messenger, the five pillars that come from the Hadiths actually varies according to school of thought so you can not declare somebody a non-Muslim based off not subscribing to the 5 pillars, some madhabs (schools) believe there are 6 pillars and that just shows the diversity of interpretations.
- There are also Ahmadis, I don't want to get into a debate about their beliefs but as a secular Indian you probably consider them Muslims so it's surprising you're implying only Sunnis are Muslim and excluding anybody that doesn't fit a certain fiqh or theology.

- There are also Qur'anists aka Al-Quraniyoon who are Muslims that only believe in the Qur'an and not the Hadiths very similar to some denominations in Christanity that broke off from Catholicism, so you have no right to say they aren't Muslim because they don't subscribe to the Sahih Sittah, the first of which was published a couple centuries after the Prophets death. By making the claim that you can only be Muslim by following the hadiths you are supporting the same views of ISIS and the Taliban.


Now for the sake of argument and to make things simpler for you as all of this must be confusing to somebody not familiar to the diversity of thought within the Muslim world, lets assume that you're only talking about Sunni Islam and disregarding the other sects even then you're incorrect about your assertions on the Sunni 'stance' on Hijab.

To break it down
1. How Sunni - Islam is practiced varies by madhabs (schools of thoughts) each with their own fiqh (law)
2. There are 4 major school of thoughts - Shafi, Maliki, Hannafi and Hanbali. There are some minor schools of thoughts but they have a miniscule number of followers so aren't discussed as often as the Big 4

Now you may ask how these madhabs differ from each other when they're all essentially under the umbrella of Sunni Islam? How did they come into existence and why?

The answer is that each of the madhabs were named after certain scholars who researched Islam and the Hadiths but they all have different laws but each of the 4 scholars intepreted the same hadiths differently, Abu Hanifa who founded the Hanafi school and Malik ibn Anas the founder of the Maliki school could both study the same hadith for example the Sahih Bukhari yet come to different conclusions and that's why practices can vary between sunnis, even in terms of prayer styles, what is forbidden to eat and what isn't etc If you go to sunni mosque you can see a Moroccan muslim who follows the Maliki tradition may fold his arms differently from a Malaysian Muslim that follows the Shafii tradition. Some other notable differences is the duration of Eid, in North Africa they celebrate Eid for only 2 days in line with the laws laid by the dominant school of thought as opposed to 4 days of Eid as is the norm in Hanafi majority countries. In some madhabs eating shrimp isn't halal while in other it is and they all base their different positions from the interpretations of the Hadiths by the respective scholars.

It's the same with the veil. While the hijab is required by all 4 school, covering your face is not required except by Salafis and as I mentioned above there are even some Salafi scholars such as Al Albani, one of the most respected scholars of Albanian origin to have studied Islam and he's still held high regard. So I don't know who you think you are to override the rulings from the 4 madhabs, the scholars that researched the hadiths extensively and other scholars such as Al Albaani in the past century that have maintained that covering your face (the veil) is not required by Islam at all.

Before you say "but but the Hadiths!!!!1" - Every Sunni Muslim in the world follows a school of though whether knowingly or unknowingly, we all follow one school or another and the scholars that founded each madhab has already interpreted the hadiths for us and laid out the laws, so just studying the hadiths in isolation to suggest what it says makes no sense unless you're somebody that chooses to not follow any madhab and instead do their own thing or maybe start your own movement but for most Sunnis we aren't going to breakaway from the traditions already established by the madhab that we follow.

For more info on the different schools
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madhhab
https://themuslimtimes.info/2017/10...een-hanafi-shafi-hanbali-and-maliki-in-islam/

Don't bother responding if you have gained any knowledge from this because there's no point having a discussion with some with a juvenile understanding of religion.

[MENTION=131678]Madplayer[/MENTION] [MENTION=133865]hussain.r97[/MENTION]

 

[yasir]

Hijab, Nakab symbolizes women oppression not freedom of choice for women, Nakab is extreme form, should be condemned rather than encouraged

In Muslim culture, women are oppressed more than others, thanks to high degree of religious literalism baked into the culture and lack of liberals in their culture.


Submission of women to religion can be equated to obedience of Black slaves to masters, most slaves were ok with this model for thousands of years, they were led to believe its God will and what he wants, we cannot question his wisdom...Majority did not thought of it as exploitation by whites. Actually white liberals played a major part in liberating slaves, blacks did not had power nor masses were self aware of issues they were facing... Same is the situation with women in general, specially Muslim women, where conservative culture is significantly dominating culture, which unfortunately thrives on women oppression. Liberation of women is death sentence to their culture, like liberation of slaves was death to American southern culture... They are still bitter about it

But for Muslim countries to make progress, liberation and women empowerment is vital, no country has ever made progress without empowering women. Like in case of slavery, lot of that has to come from liberals, strong liberal culture will make liberation of women possible. Bullying of liberals in Muslim culture is bad indicator for that society in long run, as we have seen, conservatives raine has been awful

 

[Madplayer]

You didn't bother to respond to my comment or even quote me cause you have no way to refute what I said and are afraid being owned again. I'll repeat what I said before in the simplest words for you - Islam is a religion with many sects and schools of thoughts, each with their own fiqh (laws), theology and interpretations of the Qur'an and Sunnah (traditions of Muhammad PBUH).

Here are some argument-al fallacies you've been committing on this thread constantly either out of ignorance or maliciousness, I'd encourage to read this whole post before replying to me (if you dare):

1. You keep assuming all Muslims on this thread belong to one sect and school of thought, probably Sunni - Hannafi going off your comments.
- Not all Pakistanis or Muslims on this forum are Sunni. While I am one, this forum is very diverse so to assume just one position of Islam you're implying only one school of thought and sect is the right one, you're basically doing the exact same thing extremists such as the Taliban and ISIS are doing which assuming the authority of deciding who is or isn't Muslim.
- If your gripe with is with Sunni Islam then go ahead and state that clearly because your whole argument is against Sunni - Islama and that too of one of school thought.
- You keep posting Hadiths but you're unware that there are Pakistani Shias too and Shias do not recognize the Sahih Sittah (6 authentic hadiths) and have their own hadith collection and they also make 5 prayers a day (3 times a day as opposed to 5 times) so by attacking Islam based off the hadiths you're implying that Shias are not Muslim a view held among extremists. Jinnah who split India was also from the Shia sect.
- Ismailis are also considered Muslims according to both the Amman message by the Imam-e-Ka'aba and the Govt of Pakistan and even by India, so you're implying they're not Muslim because they don't follow the Hadiths, have their own prayer style and don't pray 5 times a day as the only basis for being Muslim is believing that there is no creator but Allah and that Muhammad is his messenger, the five pillars that come from the Hadiths actually varies according to school of thought so you can not declare somebody a non-Muslim based off not subscribing to the 5 pillars, some madhabs (schools) believe there are 6 pillars and that just shows the diversity of interpretations.
- There are also Ahmadis, I don't want to get into a debate about their beliefs but as a secular Indian you probably consider them Muslims so it's surprising you're implying only Sunnis are Muslim and excluding anybody that doesn't fit a certain fiqh or theology.

- There are also Qur'anists aka Al-Quraniyoon who are Muslims that only believe in the Qur'an and not the Hadiths very similar to some denominations in Christanity that broke off from Catholicism, so you have no right to say they aren't Muslim because they don't subscribe to the Sahih Sittah, the first of which was published a couple centuries after the Prophets death. By making the claim that you can only be Muslim by following the hadiths you are supporting the same views of ISIS and the Taliban.


Now for the sake of argument and to make things simpler for you as all of this must be confusing to somebody not familiar to the diversity of thought within the Muslim world, lets assume that you're only talking about Sunni Islam and disregarding the other sects even then you're incorrect about your assertions on the Sunni 'stance' on Hijab.

To break it down
1. How Sunni - Islam is practiced varies by madhabs (schools of thoughts) each with their own fiqh (law)
2. There are 4 major school of thoughts - Shafi, Maliki, Hannafi and Hanbali. There are some minor schools of thoughts but they have a miniscule number of followers so aren't discussed as often as the Big 4

Now you may ask how these madhabs differ from each other when they're all essentially under the umbrella of Sunni Islam? How did they come into existence and why?

The answer is that each of the madhabs were named after certain scholars who researched Islam and the Hadiths but they all have different laws but each of the 4 scholars intepreted the same hadiths differently, Abu Hanifa who founded the Hanafi school and Malik ibn Anas the founder of the Maliki school could both study the same hadith for example the Sahih Bukhari yet come to different conclusions and that's why practices can vary between sunnis, even in terms of prayer styles, what is forbidden to eat and what isn't etc If you go to sunni mosque you can see a Moroccan muslim who follows the Maliki tradition may fold his arms differently from a Malaysian Muslim that follows the Shafii tradition. Some other notable differences is the duration of Eid, in North Africa they celebrate Eid for only 2 days in line with the laws laid by the dominant school of thought as opposed to 4 days of Eid as is the norm in Hanafi majority countries. In some madhabs eating shrimp isn't halal while in other it is and they all base their different positions from the interpretations of the Hadiths by the respective scholars.

It's the same with the veil. While the hijab is required by all 4 school, covering your face is not required except by Salafis and as I mentioned above there are even some Salafi scholars such as Al Albani, one of the most respected scholars of Albanian origin to have studied Islam and he's still held high regard. So I don't know who you think you are to override the rulings from the 4 madhabs, the scholars that researched the hadiths extensively and other scholars such as Al Albaani in the past century that have maintained that covering your face (the veil) is not required by Islam at all.

Before you say "but but the Hadiths!!!!1" - Every Sunni Muslim in the world follows a school of though whether knowingly or unknowingly, we all follow one school or another and the scholars that founded each madhab has already interpreted the hadiths for us and laid out the laws, so just studying the hadiths in isolation to suggest what it says makes no sense unless you're somebody that chooses to not follow any madhab and instead do their own thing or maybe start your own movement but for most Sunnis we aren't going to breakaway from the traditions already established by the madhab that we follow.

For more info on the different schools
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madhhab
https://themuslimtimes.info/2017/10...een-hanafi-shafi-hanbali-and-maliki-in-islam/

Don't bother responding if you have gained any knowledge from this because there's no point having a discussion with some with a juvenile understanding of religion.

[MENTION=131678]Madplayer[/MENTION] [MENTION=133865]hussain.r97[/MENTION]

A very good and important post. Well done.

The problem is that some people (like the poster you were replying to) think that Islam and Shariah are some rigid set of rules which every muslim on the planet has to follow to the T regardless of which part of the world they belong to. This is extremely unfair and unappreciative of the fact that Islam covers vast swathes of land with variety of culture. Such a thing can come from pure ignorance.

The poster is continuously exposing his narrow vision of things by claiming :

1) All muslims on earth have to be identical to each other (this is illogical to begin with and it should be obvious that the second major religion of the world simply wouldn't be so rigid)

2) You either accept all hadiths or reject them all. (Comes from a lack of knowledge and understanding of the science of Hadith, Isnad, chain of narration, counter-narrations, fallibility or infallibility in light of Quran, vocal or non-vocal approvals etc.)

3) Talking about differences in madhabs is a cop out. (When someone tries to brush aside more than 1300 years of Islamic tradition of following madhabs and the concept of Taqleed, what do you say to such a person? You just nod your head in disappointment i guess lol.)

4) Nobody understands the book of God. (I attempted to explain it before that in matters of jurisprudence and fiqh, expertise is needed. You need mastery over classical arabic language, several years of studying usool and fiqh from scholars who are part of a chain of scholars from previous generations. And even after that, you need to develop the most important aspect of being a scholar i.e. Wisdom of interpreting hadith and implementing Shariah because Shariah is VERY flexible. Under no circumstances should the Shariah be counter-productive to the well being of muslims. Hazrat Umar (Ra) removed the punishment for theft during the time of famine because he knew people were desperate to feed their families and it was the failure of state that they had reached that point. He fulfilled shariah in that time by barring the punishment rather than implementing it and waited till the period of hardship was over. This flexibility is there in the Shariah because as i said, it must always benefit the muslims. Having said that, ofcourse there are aspects of the deen which cannot be compromised upon under any circumstances like the fundamental philosophy of monotheism for instance.)

Anyway, you have touched all important points. I think it should suffice.

 

[Itachi]

You are correct. It is not very simple but then again it is also not that complex.

I am a person of law and order. I don't support degeneracy. If you don't speak against degeneracy, it can turn a tumor into a cancer. We currently have a cancer in our society and it is called feminism.

feminism = cancer?

define feminism.

 

[sweep_shot]

feminism = cancer?

define feminism.

Feminism is female fascism. It is not much better than Nazism (if not worse).

It basically tries to portray that females are like men in everything. This cancer is now spreading in movies and video games too. In video games, they are slowly forcing men to play as women.

Men and women are different creatures just like horse and goat are different creatures. Men can't be women and women can't be men - feminism is against this natural philosophy.

So, yes. I call it cancer because it goes against nature and it is damaging for our society.

 

[PakFan764]

People automatically think that if your wife is wearing a hijab she's being forced and is oppressed even if it's my wife's own choice. It's pretty sad TBH

 

[troodon]

I know Muslim Sunnis have various schools of thoughts. Never denied that.

So what you are saying is that even Sunnis do not agree with Bukhari and all of the hadiths there are Sahih.

So if Bukhari is wrong, then you might as well throw it in garbage. You have to strictly rely only on Quran. Without Hadiths, you cannot explain Quran as the verses revealed had a context. Hence there are Tafsirs.

I also posted the link from the Quran which take about women covering their face and bosoms. It is a clear explanation. I posted the link too.

If you do not want to believe even Quran, then you are welcome. It is clar that women have to cover their faces and modesty. If you don’t, then clearly Pak women are not following Islam.

Hence whenever, Islamists come to power, then enforce Burqa. Don’t tell me Saudi Arabia, Qatar, Iran, Afghanistan etc are all deluded and they don’t understand Islam.

 

[sweep_shot]

I know Muslim Sunnis have various schools of thoughts. Never denied that.

So what you are saying is that even Sunnis do not agree with Bukhari and all of the hadiths there are Sahih.

So if Bukhari is wrong, then you might as well throw it in garbage. You have to strictly rely only on Quran. Without Hadiths, you cannot explain Quran as the verses revealed had a context. Hence there are Tafsirs.

I also posted the link from the Quran which take about women covering their face and bosoms. It is a clear explanation. I posted the link too.

If you do not want to believe even Quran, then you are welcome. It is clar that women have to cover their faces and modesty. If you don’t, then clearly Pak women are not following Islam.

Hence whenever, Islamists come to power, then enforce Burqa. Don’t tell me Saudi Arabia, Qatar, Iran, Afghanistan etc are all deluded and they don’t understand Islam.

The link you posted came from a Shia website (al-islam.org). Shia and Sunni have different methods.

Who said we disagree with Bukhari?

LOL at not believing in Quran. Are you on drugs?

Iran is a Shia country. They are not same as other Islamic countries. Try harder.

You are too arrogant (and perhaps stupid) to realize that not all Muslims follow same madhab. You have never been a Muslim and your knowledge comes from Google.

You are writing crap.

 

[sweep_shot]

I do not think anyone in this thread wrote that he/she denies Bukhari. All we mentioned was some hadiths are weak/inaccurate.

It is funny when a Hindu guy tries to lecture Muslims about Islam.

Islam survived for 1400 years and it will continue to thrive by the will of Allah. Enemies (who try to sow doubts and divisions) have always failed and will continue to fail by the will of Allah.

 

[slipcatch]

Men judging other female for clothing themselves according to their personal beliefs.

Ridiculous.

 

[troodon]

Yes. Burying face in the sand means the world is not looking at me.

I posted Quran Quote. So it is not Sunni or Shiite.


My initial post was from Bukhari and it was rejected by posters because it is not Quran.

Calling me stupid shows you are losing the plot.

I have mentioned Islamic countries which enforce Burqa. Sunni Saudis and Shia Iran. What else you need? They understand Quran better than anyone else especially Saudi’s as Arabic is their language.

Nice try in deflecting my post. It is both in Quran and Hadith that believing women must wear Full face veil. Your Bukhari says that women needs to wear Burqa with only eyes showing from a slit in the Burqa.

 

[troodon]

I do not think anyone in this thread wrote that he/she denies Bukhari. All we mentioned was some hadiths are weak/inaccurate.

It is funny when a Hindu guy tries to lecture Muslims about Islam.

Islam survived for 1400 years and it will continue to thrive by the will of Allah. Enemies (who try to sow doubts and divisions) have always failed and will continue to fail by the will of Allah.

I have posted Hadiths from Bukhari and they are Sahih.

A Hindu guy lecturing? I do not follow any religion.

Don’t worry, a nobody like me cannot sow seeds of doubts in believers hearts. I am only posting what your scholars are saying. None I it is my interpretations. May be Bukhari did not understand Prophet Muhammad it his sayings.

 

[sweep_shot]

Yes. Burying face in the sand means the world is not looking at me.

I posted Quran Quote. So it is not Sunni or Shiite.


My initial post was from Bukhari and it was rejected by posters because it is not Quran.

Calling me stupid shows you are losing the plot.

I have mentioned Islamic countries which enforce Burqa. Sunni Saudis and Shia Iran. What else you need? They understand Quran better than anyone else especially Saudi’s as Arabic is their language.

Nice try in deflecting my post. It is both in Quran and Hadith that believing women must wear Full face veil. Your Bukhari says that women needs to wear Burqa with only eyes showing from a slit in the Burqa.

I will not respond to you further regarding Islam. Have a great day.

I don't think a Hindu guy's opinion matters when it comes to Islam.

By the way, you are the same guy who made fun of Quran's message: http://www.pakpassion.net/ppforum/s...-we-were-all-atheists&p=10416686#post10416686.

 

[troodon]

I will not respond to you further regarding Islam. Have a great day.

I don't think a Hindu guy's opinion matters when it comes to Islam.

By the way, you are the same guy who made fun of Quran's message: http://www.pakpassion.net/ppforum/s...-we-were-all-atheists&p=10416686#post10416686.

Okay. Have a good day.

Lol at calling me Hindu guy. As if my beliefs have some how corrupted Bukhari’s Hadiths. I copy pasted the Hadith as it is and provided the link.

Questioning Quran is not making fun.

 

[Justcrazy]

Muslim countries have less rapes than other countries because you need 4 male witness for rape case to uphold.

Witness is required , but these days you can prosecute of basis of circumstantial evidence , but with that also there is always a loophole , there have been cases where women have tried to frame people of Rape wrongly.

In all such matters Court needs to be as sure as possible , so that wrong person is not punished.

 

[PakLFC]

Also keep in mind most Pak women who cover there head are wearing dupatta's, not a hijab. Also the women who are wearing bukha and niqab, which would be a fringe minority in the middle class and above, are wearing traditional Pakistani clothes underneath it.

So what is your point? You want the complete Arabisation of Pak culture to be a better Muslim in your opinion?. Does not matter what they are wearing underneath when all we see is Arab clothing. Why are we killing our own indigenous culture?