Boris Johnson claimed Islam put Muslim world 'centuries behind'

[The_Odd_One]

Men who achieve great things and are focussed on their work, often treat others badly. No excuses for his behavior, but Columbus has no doubt had a great impact on the modern world.

I agree. Thomas Edison is another example who took credit for a lot of inventions even when they were not his. However, there is no denying that Edison had a great business acumen and he knew how to deliver.

 

[KingKhanWC]

What kind of weird logic is that?

Anyway, New York is the greatest city and capital of the world. Even Chicago wipes the floor with Dubai. Just because Dubai has oil and residents are rich, it does not become better than the likes of London, Tokyo, Beijing, Hong Kong, etc.

By this logic, Jeddah must be the greatest city in the world as Saudi laws are even more strict.

What is your criteria for civilised, modern and advanced society? Is it only universities?

 

[KingKhanWC]

My 10 year old son goes to school in nyc and nephew who is 11 in dallas. Both are taught that columbus DID NOT discover America. Columbus day parade is looked at in bad tatste. So there that

What are they taught? Why do they have a Columbus day parade?

 

[Mr.T]

The ancestors of modern Native Americans came over the Bering Strait land bridge. Apparently there were already some humans in South America when that happened.

Vikings preceded Columbus to North America.

However, all this doesn't mean that the Africans actually built ships and reach America, just like "Muslims were in the process of making many more breakthroughs in science".

If Muslims were indeed in the process of making many more breakthroughs in science, then they only have themselves and not someone else to blame that it did not happen. Which of course means that they were not in the process.

I am nt claiming that africans built ships, or the muslims were in the process of some major break through.

 

[cricketjoshila]

It's clear your western education hasn't taught you that it was a Muslim woman who founded the first university.

So the question you should be asking is if Islam is against the promotion of knowledge, why did it take a Muslim to create one?

Your tone comes across as rabid. I can almost sense the frothy spittle dribbling from the corners of your mouth.

Takshila and Nalanda universities were founded by a muslim woman?

 

[Mr.T]

What are they taught? Why do they have a Columbus day parade?

i just told you what they are taught. CAN IT BE MORE CLEAR. Same reason they have Halloween day parade and many other useless pointless parades.

 

[KingKhanWC]

i just told you what they are taught. CAN IT BE MORE CLEAR. Same reason they have Halloween day parade and many other useless pointless parades.

lol. Hope the teachers arent like you.

You only wrote Columbus did not discover America. I am now asking what does the school teach, if not Columbus then who discovered America.

Halloween is not the same. If Columbus did not discover America why are so many people celebrating this day in the US? Do other states teach differently?

 

[cricketjoshila]

Indians and Pakistanis aren’t an homogeneous group.

A Marathi or a Bihari can’t claim Chanakya as their own, the same way a Punjabi can’t claim Aryabhatta as their own.

Who said?Lol.

There was no punjab no pakistan no islam then.

Chanakya was a hindu brahmin who lived most of his life in Pataliputra and died there.

 

[cricketjoshila]

Problem is not islam.problem is how its followers interpret and follow it.

 

[Mr.T]

lol. Hope the teachers arent like you.

You only wrote Columbus did not discover America. I am now asking what does the school teach, if not Columbus then who discovered America.

Halloween is not the same. If Columbus did not discover America why are so many people celebrating this day in the US? Do other states teach differently?

I am not an academic so dont know precisely. But among my circle of friends from all over, they are taught that the Vikings came before and obviously the Natives came from Asia before that. Colombus storyline is looked down upon to my understanding. Some people still believe it i am sure and find pride in it. I can go in detail about people celebrating real stupid stuff be it religious, nationalistic or cultural with no bearings on reality. But i dont want to get banned

 

[KingKhanWC]

I am not an academic so dont know precisely. But among my circle of friends from all over, they are taught that the Vikings came before and obviously the Natives came from Asia before that. Colombus storyline is looked down upon to my understanding. Some people still believe it i am sure and find pride in it. I can go in detail about people celebrating real stupid stuff be it religious, nationalistic or cultural with no bearings on reality. But i dont want to get banned

If this is part of the US school silabus then great! In the UK the lie is still taught.

Can anyone from the US confirm what Mr T is saying is true? No offence mr t.

 

[Napa]

much of western jurisprudence was initially modelled on Sharia implementation in application at least

What??? You believe in an awful lot of #fakehistory.

Western Europe arose from the Carolingans, who were Northern tribes that received their culture from the Romans. They were as far from Sharia as possible.

As are Hindu women, despite a Hindu woman having been CEO of Pepsi. What gives?

That raises some uncomfortable questions for Indians.

Indra Nooyi belongs to an educated Indian middle class community, the same as Nadella, Pichai, Vikram Pandit, Rajat Gupta, Arun Sarin etc. They constitute about 25% of the Indian population.

65% of Indian women are literate, compared to 45% of Pakistani women, so there are no uncomfortable questions for Hinduism.

https://www.google.com/search?q=india+women+literacy&oq=india+women+literacy

https://www.google.com/search?q=pakistan+women+literacy&oq=pakistan+women+literacy

 

[Napa]

I am nt claiming that africans built ships, or the muslims were in the process of some major break through.

You were not, but the guy I was answering was.

 

[Napa]

Lol, no Marathis and Punjabis aren’t part of the same ethnic group, they’re TWO DIFFERENT ethnic groups. Come on man, basic stuff.

And... you are wrong. You are basing your views on modern Punjabis and Marathis (and even the Indian Marathis and Punjabis are not all that different).

During the time of Chanakya, it is quite likely that the people inhabiting Punjab and Maratha belonged to the same ethnic group, though there may be differences in the gene pools now.

 

[Mr.T]

No offense taken. I would actually like other USA habitants to weigh in on this. I live on the east coast which is a bubble and does not represent the rest of USA.

 

[Mr.T]

Also at the colombus day parade IN NYC there are always protests claiming that we should not be celebrating this with all we know now.

 

[Mr.T]

I cant claim how authentic this is.
The states of Florida, Hawaii, Alaska, Vermont, South Dakota, New Mexico,and Maine do not recognize it and have each replaced it with celebrations of Indigenous People's Day (in Hawaii, Discoverers' Day, in South Dakota, Native American Day). Columbus Day also competes with Leif Erikson Day.

 

[StreetSmart]

This is exactly the argument used by die-hard communists.

"Communism didn't fail, it is just that the Soviet Union did not follow the principles of communism correctly."

and you got me wrong here I am not communist nor I will be if you need the answer please read about how Islamic societies used to be and how they are now. Everyone has their own opinion and this is what I think.

 

[Napa]

and you got me wrong here I am not communist nor I will be if you need the answer please read about how Islamic societies used to be and how they are now. Everyone has their own opinion and this is what I think.

I did not say you were a communist, I just the communists exhibit similar behavior by blaming the practitioners of their philosophy for non-perfect practice.

Whatever history I have read suggests that Islamic societies were in a constant state of war.

1) Husayn ibn Ali the 4th Chaliph of the Rashidun Caliphate and the third Shia Imam was killed by the Ummayads.

2) The Ummayads were defeated in war by the Abbasids.

3) 95 years later the Abbasids were defeated and lost Baghdad to the Shia Buyids.

4) While fighting other Muslims, the Caliphates were also expanding by attacking their non-Muslim neighbors.

5) and so on.

Constant warfare is not an ideal to aspire to.

 

[KingKhanWC]

I did not say you were a communist, I just the communists exhibit similar behavior by blaming the practitioners of their philosophy for non-perfect practice.

Whatever history I have read suggests that Islamic societies were in a constant state of war.

1) Husayn ibn Ali the 4th Chaliph of the Rashidun Caliphate and the third Shia Imam was killed by the Ummayads.

2) The Ummayads were defeated in war by the Abbasids.

3) 95 years later the Abbasids were defeated and lost Baghdad to the Shia Buyids.

4) While fighting other Muslims, the Caliphates were also expanding by attacking their non-Muslim neighbors.

5) and so on.

Constant warfare is not an ideal to aspire to.

Hindus and Christians have never been at war with each other?

 

[Napa]

Hindus and Christians have never been at war with each other?

Christians in India live mostly at peace with their Hindu neighbors and with their Buddhist neighbors in Sri Lanka barring occasional incidents. The most powerful politician in India for a long time was an Italian Roman Catholic.

Christians have been able to reduce the amount of wars, for example the "separation of church and state" enabled different Christian sects to avoid fighting each other in the US. Switzerland is a Christian country that pioneered the idea of a country that would not involve itself in wars.

No similar examples of being able to stay away from wars by Muslim nations.

 

[KingKhanWC]

Christians in India live mostly at peace with their Hindu neighbors and with their Buddhist neighbors in Sri Lanka barring occasional incidents. The most powerful politician in India for a long time was an Italian Roman Catholic.

Christians have been able to reduce the amount of wars, for example the "separation of church and state" enabled different Christian sects to avoid fighting each other in the US. Switzerland is a Christian country that pioneered the idea of a country that would not involve itself in wars.

No similar examples of being able to stay away from wars by Muslim nations.

lol. You mentioned thousands of years of Muslim history but now jump to India today which is irrelevent.

Have you heard of the IRA and Ulster nationalism? Perhaps the Lords army? Or maybe the KKK? All Christians who are currently killing others including fellow Christians. It would take hours to list details of Christian killing Christians in history.

What about Hindus? Why have they never had an empire for so long? Why are they falling behind everyone else including Muslims?

 

[topspin]

Everyone saying anything against Islam or a colored person immediately becomes racist.

Koran, the word of God in Islam, is the ultimate source of truth and knowledge. Everything that goes against it can go to a trash can. Won't you agree?

If Islam promotes knowledge then why is it that not even a single Muslim country has a world class university that can compete with the ones in the US and Europe?

Baghdad was at one point the centre of learning and mathematics, so the followers of Islam certainly went out of their way to promote knowledge and did have world class institutions for studying.

This shows how poorly versed you are with not just cricket, but also when it comes to the history of Islam, but this comes to no surprise from an uncle Tom like yourself.

 

[Napa]

lol. You mentioned thousands of years of Muslim history but now jump to India today which is irrelevent.

Have you heard of the IRA and Ulster nationalism? Perhaps the Lords army? Or maybe the KKK? All Christians who are currently killing others including fellow Christians. It would take hours to list details of Christian killing Christians in history.

What about Hindus? Why have they never had an empire for so long? Why are they falling behind everyone else including Muslims?

Obviously the history of Christian nations is also one of many wars.

Then there is obviously the issue of extent. Have Christian nations been able to stay out of wars for long enough periods of time to be able to develop their economies? I would say yes. Can't say the same for Muslim nations.

That is the reason why the flag on your profile is the Union Jack rather than a Cresent and Star.

 

[KingKhanWC]

Obviously the history of Christian nations is also one of many wars.

Then there is obviously the issue of extent. Have Christian nations been able to stay out of wars for long enough periods of time to be able to develop their economies? I would say yes. Can't say the same for Muslim nations.

That is the reason why the flag on your profile is the Union Jack rather than a Cresent and Star.

lol. Im British, have lived here all my life which is why my flag is British, to show my location. It's hard work debating with this type of idiotic mentality but hey ho.

Which Christian economy, Ethiopia , Congo, Namibia, Angola, Haiti or perhaps Nepal? Are their economies better than UAE, Saudi, Kuwait, Qatar?

You need to get out more.

You ignored my question on Hinduism. Why has Hinduism not advanced? The largest majority Hindu nation is India and no other in the whole world. Hinduism has stayed in one part and currently India has the largest population of poor people in any one country on the planet. Why, what went wrong? Dont run, this is just warming up.

 

[slipcatch]

As a biologist, if you see enough evidence for evolution, will you be willing to accept that God did not create humans?

As a cosmologists, if you find a proof that the universe did not need a creator, will you be willing abandon your God?

According to Islam, some people were turned into monkeys and pigs as a punishment. Do you believe in this ridiculous claim? Do you believe in the claim that Noah built an ark that carried a pair of every species of animals?

As a Muslim, you will because it is mentioned in the Koran which proves that you are not free to exercise critical thinking if something goes against your religion.

LOL.

You mentioned that Islam stop people from excelling in science and other tech.

I just gave you multiple example of that it does not.

Science is not excluded to evolution only. It is the only argument atheist have to further their belief, evolution. LOL

Science is more than evolution unless you are radicalized atheist and want to impose your belief and disrespect other's beliefs.

 

[slipcatch]

You are talking to a lost cause

You aren't making any sense nor any weighted argument.

 

[Napa]

lol. Im British, have lived here all my life which is why my flag is British, to show my location. It's hard work debating with this type of idiotic mentality but hey ho.

I assume your ancestors going back to the 7th Century, the advent of Islam, were all full blooded Anglo-Saxons.

Which Christian economy, Ethiopia , Congo, Namibia, Angola, Haiti or perhaps Nepal? Are their economies better than UAE, Saudi, Kuwait, Qatar?

You need to get out more.

The Sub-Saharan African Christian nations do no worse than the Sub-Saharan African Islamic nations.

You ignored my question on Hinduism. Why has Hinduism not advanced? The largest majority Hindu nation is India and no other in the whole world. Hinduism has stayed in one part and currently India has the largest population of poor people in any one country on the planet. Why, what went wrong? Dont run, this is just warming up.

India has a lot of tribals, so for the entire nation to make progress it will take time. But it is doing a lot better than other Islamic South Asian nations in terms of peace, economic and technological development. In 4 days time you should witness the launch of Chandrayaan which has a Moon orbiter, lander and rover.

 

[KingKhanWC]

I assume your ancestors going back to the 7th Century, the advent of Islam, were all full blooded Anglo-Saxons.

lol. Your ancestors , mine and all of humanity go back to Africa. The first man in the UK was not white anglo saxon but a man of colour. Picking and choosing dates for a silly argument instead of responding to the point shows your mentality is not much better than Boris.

The Sub-Saharan African Christian nations do no worse than the Sub-Saharan African Islamic nations.

Is Nepal or Haiti in sub sahara africa? You claimed Christians nations have better developed economies which is simply not true but again you are thinking like Boris and Trump, thinking of white christian nations. You do realise these nations see themselves as secular and in many the majority do not practice Christianity.

India has a lot of tribals, so for the entire nation to make progress it will take time. But it is doing a lot better than other Islamic South Asian nations in terms of peace, economic and technological development. In 4 days time you should witness the launch of Chandrayaan which has a Moon orbiter, lander and rover.

There are over 40 majority Muslim nations and only 1 majority Hindu nation(many in Nepal too). With such numbers of course India will be ahead of some but India is not first world, it's 3rd world. Sending the odd machines into space means nothing when you have the largest amount of poor people on the planet in your nation.

Ok lets try your approach, why is the Hindu nation far behind the Christian nations?

 

[Mr.T]

Sure.

 

[Mr.T]

You aren't making any sense nor any weighted argument.

Sure

 

[Napa]

lol. Your ancestors , mine and all of humanity go back to Africa. The first man in the UK was not white anglo saxon but a man of colour. Picking and choosing dates for a silly argument instead of responding to the point shows your mentality is not much better than Boris.

Now you are trying to be cute, but it is easy to refute. The topic was the comparative performance of Christian and Muslim nations, and what happened a 100,000 years ago or even 5,000 years ago is irrelevant.

Is Nepal or Haiti in sub sahara africa? You claimed Christians nations have better developed economies which is simply not true but again you are thinking like Boris and Trump, thinking of white christian nations. You do realise these nations see themselves as secular and in many the majority do not practice Christianity.

I said religion matters, I did not say it is the only thing that matters.

There are over 40 majority Muslim nations and only 1 majority Hindu nation(many in Nepal too).

And none of these 40 countries has a space program worth anything. Turkey and Malaysia are the Islamic countries that I can think of which are most advanced, and they seem rather backward when it comes to developing technology.

With such numbers of course India will be ahead of some but India is not first world, it's 3rd world. Sending the odd machines into space means nothing when you have the largest amount of poor people on the planet in your nation.

A space program is not an "odd machine into space", if it was easy many more nations would have done it by now. India's space program is a technology demonstrator, which attracts many more business deals as foreigners realize that Indians can create advanced technology. India's high-tech exports every year are about $150 billion (out of which $125 billion is IT and ITeS), and Chandrayaan costs only $140 million. There is a lot of money to be made from high-tech.

Ok lets try your approach, why is the Hindu nation far behind the Christian nations?

Probably because India has a whole mass of poor people who it will take time to pull out of poverty. Growth rates of 7%+ are usually the best a country of the size of India can do. It will take time but in about 20 years we should be in good shape.

 

[Asim_khan]

What??? You believe in an awful lot of #fakehistory.

Western Europe arose from the Carolingans, who were Northern tribes that received their culture from the Romans. They were as far from Sharia as possible.





Indra Nooyi belongs to an educated Indian middle class community, the same as Nadella, Pichai, Vikram Pandit, Rajat Gupta, Arun Sarin etc. They constitute about 25% of the Indian population.

65% of Indian women are literate, compared to 45% of Pakistani women, so there are no uncomfortable questions for Hinduism.

https://www.google.com/search?q=india+women+literacy&oq=india+women+literacy

https://www.google.com/search?q=pakistan+women+literacy&oq=pakistan+women+literacy

What's 35% of ~600 million Hindu Females? Why has Hinduism not been able to teach them to read and write?

 

[the Great Khan]

Takshila and Nalanda universities were founded by a muslim woman?

they were not institutions that handed out degrees and had a mdoern curricululm, e.g semesters, terms, etc etc, PHD's. Fatima Al firhis University is the oldest University in existence today and is the first University that actually handed out Doctorates and degree's. Nalanda and takshila were great achievements but were not what we would recognise today a university. they were more akin to houses of knowledge and learning..universities in the sense they accumulated people of knowledge who taught but not universities in the modern sense. Its a subtle difference.

 

[the Great Khan]

Completely agree. Islam discourages free thinking. You are not supposed to use your brain and follow a book written 1400 years ago no matter how out of touch it is with the current time.

false. the Quraan actually challenges you within its pages to use your brain and try to prove it wrong through research and wisdom.

You should do your research.

 

[the Great Khan]

Actually a lot of that mathematics came from India. For example, almost 1,200 years before the arrival of Islam Panini was using Boolean logic and Pingala's work also contains the basic ideas of Fibonacci numbers.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_mathematics

The Egyptians built buildings, they didn't advance theoretical mathematical knowledge. The Greeks developed mathematical theory.



The Caliphates were always religious and always at war. Whether scientific development took place depended upon whether the current ruler was interested in sponsoring scientists, similar to medieval Europe. Later science took off in Europe in conjunction with capitalist development as it was seen that science could actually be very economically profitable. This freed it from the need of sponsorship from the feudals.

The Islamic countries on the other hand did not experience the same capitalist development as the feudals were too strong and did not want competition for power from the capitalists. Hence there was not the associated progress in science.

and what did India do with the knowledge? they kept it isolated within their small land..The Muslims took that knowledge expanded upon it and gave it to the world. Just like Greeks.

People get hung up on what the notion of the muslims did this first or the hindus did this first. it is irrelevant. Why? because the history of human knowledge is not limited to one group alone. Human beings have always taken knowledge from every subsequent generation and expanded uopn it. The nature of knowledge and the human mind is such that it is linear. It has to pick a brick up, then put anotehr brick ontop before it can build a wall.

Human existence is linear therefore Newton could not have come up with his theories without the muslim scholars of old e.g. al kindi,ibn rushd, al beruni to name a few, who could not have come up with their theories without the hindu concept of the zero and the knowledge of the greeks, who could not have come up with their theories without the ancients from egypt and babylon and so it goes on.

We should not be so narrow minded when it comes to knowledge..

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

What??? You believe in an awful lot of #fakehistory.

Western Europe arose from the Carolingans, who were Northern tribes that received their culture from the Romans. They were as far from Sharia as possible.





Indra Nooyi belongs to an educated Indian middle class community, the same as Nadella, Pichai, Vikram Pandit, Rajat Gupta, Arun Sarin etc. They constitute about 25% of the Indian population.

65% of Indian women are literate, compared to 45% of Pakistani women, so there are no uncomfortable questions for Hinduism.

https://www.google.com/search?q=india+women+literacy&oq=india+women+literacy

https://www.google.com/search?q=pakistan+women+literacy&oq=pakistan+women+literacy

I said legal systems not culture. There is plenty of reference if you need it.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

and what did India do with the knowledge?

Well the result is there for all to see. A country which looks identical to Pakistan at present, although there are many Youtube videos which show it as a shining metropolis within the next 10-20 years.

 

[CricketCartoons]

Human existence is linear therefore Newton could not have come up with his theories without the muslim scholars of old e.g. al kindi,ibn rushd, al beruni to name a few, who could not have come up with their theories without the hindu concept of the zero and the knowledge of the greeks, who could not have come up with their theories without the ancients from egypt and babylon and so it goes on.

While science builds on the knowledge and discovery of others, it is wrong to say that something would not have been possible without someone elses contribution. Given infinite time I could invent entire mathematics.

 

[AdamM97]

Well the result is there for all to see. A country which looks identical to Pakistan at present, although there are many Youtube videos which show it as a shining metropolis within the next 10-20 years.

Tbh, a lot of Pakistanis also think they’re better than everyone else. It’s a South Asian thing, we suffer from inferiority complex.

 

[AdamM97]

lol. Im British, have lived here all my life which is why my flag is British, to show my location. It's hard work debating with this type of idiotic mentality but hey ho.

Which Christian economy, Ethiopia , Congo, Namibia, Angola, Haiti or perhaps Nepal? Are their economies better than UAE, Saudi, Kuwait, Qatar?

You need to get out more.

You ignored my question on Hinduism. Why has Hinduism not advanced? The largest majority Hindu nation is India and no other in the whole world. Hinduism has stayed in one part and currently India has the largest population of poor people in any one country on the planet. Why, what went wrong? Dont run, this is just warming up.

Ignore him, he believes Punjabis and Marathis used to be a part of the same ethnic group 2000 years ago. I bet he also listens to ”Dr” Subramanian who thinks that the Aryan Migration Theory is a British conspiracy.

 

[Napa]

I said legal systems not culture. There is plenty of reference if you need it.

Please do provide a few.

 

[Napa]

and what did India do with the knowledge? they kept it isolated within their small land..The Muslims took that knowledge expanded upon it and gave it to the world. Just like Greeks.

1. Indian land isn't "small".
2. You answered your own question. The knowledge travelled the world to help everybody. It was transmitted by the Arabs to Europe because they happened to conquer parts of Europe and India. Transmission was bound to happen, knowledge is shared with time.

 

[Realromeo]

Actually a lot of that mathematics came from India. For example, almost 1,200 years before the arrival of Islam Panini was using Boolean logic and Pingala's work also contains the basic ideas of Fibonacci numbers.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_mathematics

The Egyptians built buildings, they didn't advance theoretical mathematical knowledge. The Greeks developed mathematical theory.



The Caliphates were always religious and always at war. Whether scientific development took place depended upon whether the current ruler was interested in sponsoring scientists, similar to medieval Europe. Later science took off in Europe in conjunction with capitalist development as it was seen that science could actually be very economically profitable. This freed it from the need of sponsorship from the feudals.

The Islamic countries on the other hand did not experience the same capitalist development as the feudals were too strong and did not want competition for power from the capitalists. Hence there was not the associated progress in science.

India is 1/5th of world's population, lot of Math and Science are expected to come out of India lol

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Please do provide a few.

https://www.jstor.org/stable/163176?seq=1#page_scan_tab_contents

There's an article by Marcel A. Boisard on that site. You would have to subscribe to read it in full if you are interested, otherwise a google search will probably produce something along the same lines.

 

[the Great Khan]

1. Indian land isn't "small".
2. You answered your own question. The knowledge travelled the world to help everybody. It was transmitted by the Arabs to Europe because they happened to conquer parts of Europe and India. Transmission was bound to happen, knowledge is shared with time.

see? the same argument that you use to denigrate the progress of the Muslims can be used for India. If they knew all of this science before everyone why didn't they have rocket ships going off into space a thousand years before the birth of Christ?

I mean thats what we hear right? that islam is this retrograde religion that brings darkness and didnt really give us much, but India did what? they had the concept of zero, and all this other stuff and just sat there..

See now? both sides can make useless arguments..

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

To be honest, I think it's a fair point being raised that Islamic countries have stagnated, just because Boris Johnson or Tommy Robinson makes the point, doesn't mean it isn't valid.

Is it intrinsically linked to Islam as a religion, or are there other reasons?

I know many Indians have jumped into the debate to argue that all the scientific knowledge was stolen from others ( meaning India in their version of history) but then you wonder why India looks like it does, while Europe and it's offshoot empires look so much more impressive.

 

[from_da_lost_dim3nsion]

Don't know about Islam but he is partially right , "Most" Muslims are a century behind in their mindset . If i have to blame something it would be lack of education and clinging to old cultural practices rather than religion . Being poor and doesn't help either. It snot just Muslim s, a lot of third and 2nd world countries are lagging behind. You just don't see their dirty laundry being blasted on Tv screens all the time because is fashionable to bash Islam and Muslims right now.Islam is practiced differently all over the world with a lo of cultural practices mixed in .

 

[Napa]

https://www.jstor.org/stable/163176?seq=1#page_scan_tab_contents

There's an article by Marcel A. Boisard on that site. You would have to subscribe to read it in full if you are interested, otherwise a google search will probably produce something along the same lines.

Out of a million articles published on Jurisprudence, you find one that you cannot read in full. And a Google search will find 1,000X articles that the lunar landing was a hoax and 1,000,000X articles that 9/11 was an inside job.

To go from Boisards "Probable Influence of Islam" which could refer to a probable influence on two out of a thousand laws in the Western law books to "much of western jurisprudence was initially modelled on Sharia implementation in application at least" is an absurd leap.

Neither the Wiki articles on Jurispudence or Sharia mention any influence of Sharia on Western Jurisprudence let alone "much of western jurisprudence was initially modelled on Sharia implementation in application at least".

You have an extreme case of what is called in psychology "confirmation bias". You have a view of the world and latch on to whatever confirms it and ignore whatever contradicts it.

You keep saying that India is a "country which looks identical to Pakistan at present", even after I have provided you data showing the difference in composition of exports by India and Pakistan.

There really isn't much point engaging with you. You have made up your mind and all the facts in the world will not change it. Bye.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Out of a million articles published on Jurisprudence, you find one that you cannot read in full. And a Google search will find 1,000X articles that the lunar landing was a hoax and 1,000,000X articles that 9/11 was an inside job.

To go from Boisards "Probable Influence of Islam" which could refer to a probable influence on two out of a thousand laws in the Western law books to "much of western jurisprudence was initially modelled on Sharia implementation in application at least" is an absurd leap.

Neither the Wiki articles on Jurispudence or Sharia mention any influence of Sharia on Western Jurisprudence let alone "much of western jurisprudence was initially modelled on Sharia implementation in application at least".

You have an extreme case of what is called in psychology "confirmation bias". You have a view of the world and latch on to whatever confirms it and ignore whatever contradicts it.

You keep saying that India is a "country which looks identical to Pakistan at present", even after I have provided you data showing the difference in composition of exports by India and Pakistan.

There really isn't much point engaging with you. You have made up your mind and all the facts in the world will not change it. Bye.

It was a side comment, not really that important to the topic itself, so I didn't really want to get sidetracked into providing endless proofs of a side comment. I don't know why it mattered so much to you in all honesty. It really doesn't matter if you don't accept it, that is fine. Move on.

 

[Napa]

see? the same argument that you use to denigrate the progress of the Muslims can be used for India. If they knew all of this science before everyone why didn't they have rocket ships going off into space a thousand years before the birth of Christ?

I mean thats what we hear right? that islam is this retrograde religion that brings darkness and didnt really give us much, but India did what? they had the concept of zero, and all this other stuff and just sat there..

See now? both sides can make useless arguments..

You are right, criticizing one society can lead to a double-standard. I am well aware that India lags the West in developing science in the modern age.

My initial post to this thread was to the statement by KingKhan running down Europeans "So to put it simply, Europeans only started to do really well after taking knowledge from Muslims."
to which I responded: Your theory begs the question "If the Muslims already had the knowledge, why did they not get to the New World first and make scientific breakthroughs like Newton's Laws of Motion?"

After that I responded to Robert's "The scholars of the Caliphates had built on the learning of the ancient Greeks, who in their turn had built on the Egyptians." with "Actually a lot of that mathematics came from India. For example, almost 1,200 years before the arrival of Islam Panini was using Boolean logic and Pingala's work also contains the basic ideas of Fibonacci numbers."

My response to Robert was factual. Then the posts became more contentious.

Later posts were critical of Islam's record of war, which one can say there was no need to post. How many times does one need to keep mentioning the state of Saudi Arabia, Syria, Libya, Afghanistan, Iraq etc. anyway?

Credit to Islam for conveying Indian mathematics (including the concept of zero) to the West.

Probably a good time to quit this thread.

 

[KingKhanWC]

Probably because India has a whole mass of poor people who it will take time to pull out of poverty. Growth rates of 7%+ are usually the best a country of the size of India can do. It will take time but in about 20 years we should be in good shape.

I didnt mention India, I mentioned Hinduism. Hinduism is older than Islam, so why have Hindus not advanced as much as Christians?

 

[The_Odd_One]

What is your criteria for civilised, modern and advanced society? Is it only universities?

No

Development, self sustainability, economy, contribution to STEM, diversity of population, education, democracy, military, global culture impact, etc. are all equally important.

 

[The_Odd_One]

Baghdad was at one point the centre of learning and mathematics, so the followers of Islam certainly went out of their way to promote knowledge and did have world class institutions for studying.

This shows how poorly versed you are with not just cricket, but also when it comes to the history of Islam, but this comes to no surprise from an uncle Tom like yourself.

I was comparing the contribution of the Islamic world in the last 1000 years and hence, the comparison with the US.

When will you guys stop glorifying the past? 1/4th of the noble prize winners in science are Jews with a mere population of 15 million. Muslims with 1.8 billion population have just 3 noble prize winners in science. Embarrassing statistics for Muslims.

 

[The_Odd_One]

false. the Quraan actually challenges you within its pages to use your brain and try to prove it wrong through research and wisdom.

You should do your research.

There is a hidden agenda in that knowledge seeking. You are supposed to observe things around you to strengthen your believe in Allah.

 

[The_Odd_One]

LOL.

You mentioned that Islam stop people from excelling in science and other tech.

I just gave you multiple example of that it does not.

Science is not excluded to evolution only. It is the only argument atheist have to further their belief, evolution. LOL

Science is more than evolution unless you are radicalized atheist and want to impose your belief and disrespect other's beliefs.

I mentioned cosmology as well. Read "A Universe from Nothing" by Lawrence Krauss. Even, if evolution is not true, it still does not prove that God created humans.

The examples you gave are irrelevant. Come back when someone in your family win a noble prize or come up with a game changer theory or invention.

 

[KingKhanWC]

No

Development, self sustainability, economy, contribution to STEM, diversity of population, education, democracy, military, global culture impact, etc. are all equally important.

You have no issues with crime, drug abuse, pornography, breaking int laws, state terrorism, police brutality, illegal invasions?

USA is not a real democracy, 2 million voted less for Trump yet he won. Apart from Movies and Music there is no global culture impact unless you include fast food which is killing people. Plenty of others nations have the rest and in many cases higher.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

There is a hidden agenda in that knowledge seeking. You are supposed to observe things around you to strengthen your believe in Allah.

Nothing wrong with that. Allah has shown the Muslims that he won't favour them for their lazy efforts and will bestow knowledge on non-Muslims if they deserve it more. Herein is a valuable lesson for the people of Islam.

 

[The_Odd_One]

You have no issues with crime, drug abuse, pornography, breaking int laws, state terrorism, police brutality, illegal invasions?

USA is not a real democracy, 2 million voted less for Trump yet he won. Apart from Movies and Music there is no global culture impact unless you include fast food which is killing people. Plenty of others nations have the rest and in many cases higher.

As if these problems do not exist in other countries?

Amazon, Apple, Microsoft, Google, Disney, Boeing, Harvard, Stanford, MIT, etc. are all based in the US. I will not even bother to mention more because the list is virtually unlimited to write. Then, the military strength of the US blows away the entire world. US is the greatest country that has ever existed on this planet.

You must be joking if you think that the US cultural impact is only limited to fast food and entertainment. No country has contributed more to the STEM than the US.

US does not comprise of blue states only. Just because states like New York and California are densely populated, it does not give them the right to make decisions for the other 48 states. They have been already granted more electoral votes. Trump won fair and square according the existing law.

 

[KingKhanWC]

As if these problems do not exist in other countries?

Amazon, Apple, Microsoft, Google, Disney, Boeing, Harvard, Stanford, MIT, etc. are all based in the US. I will not even bother to mention more because the list is virtually unlimited to write. Then, the military strength of the US blows away the entire world. US is the greatest country that has ever existed on this planet.

You must be joking if you think that the US cultural impact is only limited to fast food and entertainment. No country has contributed more to the STEM than the US.

US does not comprise of blue states only. Just because states like New York and California are densely populated, it does not give them the right to make decisions for the other 48 states. They have been already granted more electoral votes. Trump won fair and square according the existing law.

Being the richest country doesn't make it the greatest. Being the biggest military doesnt make it the greatest nation either and this military has only been used to abuse other nations in the last 50 years which makes it the biggest criminal entity around today.

Please do list the cultural impact in detail.

Democracy is one man , one vote and the person with the most wins. US system is flawed therefore not democratic.

Overall the US impact is negative one of the globe not a postive one.

 

[The_Odd_One]

Nothing wrong with that. Allah has shown the Muslims that he won't favour them for their lazy efforts and will bestow knowledge on non-Muslims if they deserve it more. Herein is a valuable lesson for the people of Islam.

The purpose of knowledge should be to seek truth and explain the universe where we live. On the other hand, the sole purpose of science in Islam seems to be proving the existence of Allah and accuracy of Koran. Hence, whenever science in Islam is mentioned, you hear about the Big Bang Theory, Human Birth, etc.

 

[The_Odd_One]

Being the richest country doesn't make it the greatest. Being the biggest military doesnt make it the greatest nation either and this military has only been used to abuse other nations in the last 50 years which makes it the biggest criminal entity around today.

Please do list the cultural impact in detail.

Democracy is one man , one vote and the person with the most wins. US system is flawed therefore not democratic.

Overall the US impact is negative one of the globe not a postive one.

You are being intellectually dishonest. Steve Jobs was not rich, neither were Mark Zuckerberg or Bill Gates. There are a million examples of such people in the US.

Again, if anyone has any problem with current democratic system in the US, they should amend the constitution.

 

[KingKhanWC]

You are being intellectually dishonest. Steve Jobs was not rich, neither were Mark Zuckerberg or Bill Gates. There are a million examples of such people in the US.

Again, if anyone has any problem with current democratic system in the US, they should amend the constitution.

Its not my problem and frankly I dont care but I was pointing out the system is flawed and cannot be described as democratic.

Please list the cultural impact of the US? You seem to be struggling.

 

[AdamM97]

You are being intellectually dishonest. Steve Jobs was not rich, neither were Mark Zuckerberg or Bill Gates. There are a million examples of such people in the US.

Again, if anyone has any problem with current democratic system in the US, they should amend the constitution.

The democratic system in the US is flawed, the US is a plutocracy / oligarchy that has fooled the people in to believing that the US is a true democracy.

 

[troodon]

The democratic system in the US is flawed, the US is a plutocracy / oligarchy that has fooled the people in to believing that the US is a true democracy.

So which is best form of democracy? I mean which country is?

Democracy with a million faults is still better than Theocracy.

 

[KingKhanWC]

So which is best form of democracy? I mean which country is?

Democracy with a million faults is still better than Theocracy.

Look at India. Extremists are again in power by vote. This is worse than any dictatorship secular or religious as the people are not responsible but in Indias case and also in the US , they are for electing extremists.

 

[AdamM97]

So which is best form of democracy? I mean which country is?

Democracy with a million faults is still better than Theocracy.

The US political system is a plutocracy that pretends to be a fully functioning democracy.

Anyhow, the Nordic countries have the most effective democracies in the world, i think Finland tops the rankings.

Why would you bring up theocracy? Did i claim that theocracies is better than democracies? I didn’t even mention theocracy until now.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

The purpose of knowledge should be to seek truth and explain the universe where we live. On the other hand, the sole purpose of science in Islam seems to be proving the existence of Allah and accuracy of Koran. Hence, whenever science in Islam is mentioned, you hear about the Big Bang Theory, Human Birth, etc.

That is limited thinking where you are falling into the same trap as the Islamic fundamentalists by making everything this or that. Science is science, knowledge is knowledge. You can't limit something which is beyond measure, and that is how Allah is described in the Quran. Any caps on knowledge which are imposed by man are false and self-inflicted. It would be like a fish swimming in a tank insisting there was no world beyond water.

 

[slipcatch]

I mentioned cosmology as well. Read "A Universe from Nothing" by Lawrence Krauss. Even, if evolution is not true, it still does not prove that God created humans.

The examples you gave are irrelevant. Come back when someone in your family win a noble prize or come up with a game changer theory or invention.

Why would I come to you if someone were to win a noble prize? remember not everyone is going to win noble prize.

How are the example irrelevant? just because the Muslims i mentioned haven't won a noble prize, yet?

Now, lets get back to your comment.

You mentioned that devotee Muslims aren't allow to think critically or can't excel in science and i gave you few example that you are bias and ignorant on this topic because you have an agenda, which is to spread your beliefs, nothing wrong with it, you may wish as you please but, please stop making ignorant and stupid comment that Muslims are prevented from excelling in their respected field or science just because they are muslim.

Yea, I am not coming to you after a Muslim win a Noble peace prize from any family because who cares what you believe in. lol

 

[troodon]

Look at India. Extremists are again in power by vote. This is worse than any dictatorship secular or religious as the people are not responsible but in Indias case and also in the US , they are for electing extremists.

It’s the choice of people. If they want to vote for right wing nutters, they can and bring them to power.

The same system allows the voters to bring down those right wing nutters in the following elections.

You cannot do this in a non democratic system. Democracy ensures that no nutter be it right or left can rule for centuries together.

 

[sweep_shot]

It’s the choice of people. If they want to vote for right wing nutters, they can and bring them to power.

The same system allows the voters to bring down those right wing nutters in the following elections.

You cannot do this in a non democratic system. Democracy ensures that no nutter be it right or left can rule for centuries together.

Democracy is a very faulty system and it can easily be compromised.

How did Hitler come to power? He didn't come by force. People elected him. Then what happened? He abolished all parties and made him the sole leader.

Bangladesh currently has its own lady Hitler (Sheikh Hasina) who came to power democratically but now routinely apprehends/murders opposition. She turned democracy into dictatorship.

The point I am trying to raise is if India doesn't keep BJP in check, we may see an unofficial dictator in India (just like in many other countries).

 

[troodon]

Democracy is a very faulty system and it can easily be compromised.

How did Hitler come to power? He didn't come by force. People elected him. Then what happened? He abolished all parties and made him the sole leader.

Bangladesh currently has its own lady Hitler (Sheikh Hasina) who came to power democratically but now routinely apprehends/murders opposition. She turned democracy into dictatorship.

The point I am trying to raise is if India doesn't keep BJP in check, we may see an unofficial dictator in India (just like in many other countries).

India can never have a dictator. It’s too fragmented for any dictator rise and take over the country.

Hitler May have been elected by people. BUT he became a dictator and suppressed all opposition. The fault does not like with democracy. Fault lies with the laws.

May I ask you which is the best form of Governance according to you?

 

[sweep_shot]

Hitler May have been elected by people. BUT he became a dictator and suppressed all opposition. The fault does not like with democracy. Fault lies with the laws.

German people were shortsighted and elected an insane guy like Hitler. This is what democracy produces; it gives too much power to all people. Democracy can be a nightmare for minorities.

Also, democracy is just an illusion. Real decisions are probably made by Deep State. Puppets follow what Deep State instructs.

May I ask you which is the best form of Governance according to you?

Sharia law.

If people don't want it, then I would say technocracy.

 

[Bewal Express]

An excellent riposte to Boris Johnson

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/jul/20/boris-johnson-islam-historically-illiterate

@Mods can you please put the full article on here

 

[The_Odd_One]

Its not my problem and frankly I dont care but I was pointing out the system is flawed and cannot be described as democratic.

Please list the cultural impact of the US? You seem to be struggling.

From gadgets (personal computers, cell phones, tablets, etc) to clothing (jeans) to social media (Facebook, Instagram, Whatsapp, etc) to fast food (burgers, fries, etc) to media (Marvel, DC, Disney, etc.), everything that a common person does or uses in a day were all invented in the US.

There's even a term called Americanization if you are not familiar with it.

 

[The_Odd_One]

Why would I come to you if someone were to win a noble prize? remember not everyone is going to win noble prize.

How are the example irrelevant? just because the Muslims i mentioned haven't won a noble prize, yet?

Now, lets get back to your comment.

You mentioned that devotee Muslims aren't allow to think critically or can't excel in science and i gave you few example that you are bias and ignorant on this topic because you have an agenda, which is to spread your beliefs, nothing wrong with it, you may wish as you please but, please stop making ignorant and stupid comment that Muslims are prevented from excelling in their respected field or science just because they are muslim.

Yea, I am not coming to you after a Muslim win a Noble peace prize from any family because who cares what you believe in. lol

Let's just keep it simple.

Will you accept any scientific discovery which refutes the existence of God?

What will be more important to you, your critical thinking or Islamic teachings?

 

[KingKhanWC]

From gadgets (personal computers, cell phones, tablets, etc) to clothing (jeans) to social media (Facebook, Instagram, Whatsapp, etc) to fast food (burgers, fries, etc) to media (Marvel, DC, Disney, etc.), everything that a common person does or uses in a day were all invented in the US.

There's even a term called Americanization if you are not familiar with it.

LOL.

Burgers and fries? How would the world have survived if Yanks didn't introduce Macdonalds. It's not even real food, all processed rubbish. I never eat at Macdonalds, because there much better food outlets.

 

[The_Odd_One]

LOL.

Burgers and fries? How would the world have survived if Yanks didn't introduce Macdonalds. It's not even real food, all processed rubbish. I never eat at Macdonalds, because there much better food outlets.

Fast food is not the only thing I mentioned. What a normal person eats, wears, does in their free time are all heavily influenced by the American culture. Even, a lot of corporates have adopted American business practices.

 

[KingKhanWC]

Fast food is not the only thing I mentioned. What a normal person eats, wears, does in their free time are all heavily influenced by the American culture. Even, a lot of corporates have adopted American business practices.

No they are not . lol

I eat Pakistani, Italian and British food. I never go to US fast food outlets unless someone with me insists and its cheat day.

I wear clothes made in Italy or from UK brands. I only use American products , movies, tv shows and music and my moblie phone. Youre deluded.