Bowling attack comparison - India vs Pakistan in Tests

[Abdullah719]

The future is bright for Pakistan's bowling with the likes of Amir, Hasan, Shaheen, Abbas (most likely) yet to hit their peaks. However, I think India is ahead right now as the pace attack has performed well consistently for the past couple of years. Pakistan's bowlers barring Yasir Shah and Mohammad Amir are all much less experienced.

 

[Buffet]

I think any comparison thread should be presented with bowling units performance. Otherwise , it's not backed by any stats. OP is saying Indian pace attack is ahead and he is right, but here are stats for the last 3 years,

Overall performances of bowlers in last 3 years

.
Pacers

.
Spinners

.
Away from home (away and neutral for other teams, away for Pakistan)

.
Pacers - Away from home (away and neutral for other teams, away for Pakistan)

.
Spinners - Away from home (away and neutral for other teams, away for Pakistan)

 

[Josh]

I think any comparison thread should be presented with bowling units performance. Otherwise , it's not backed by any stats. OP is saying Indian pace attack is ahead and he is right, but here are stats for the last 3 years,

Overall performances of bowlers in last 3 years
View attachment 83587
.
Pacers
View attachment 83588
.
Spinners
View attachment 83589
.
Away from home (away and neutral for other teams, away for Pakistan)
View attachment 83590
.
Pacers - Away from home (away and neutral for other teams, away for Pakistan)
View attachment 83591
.
Spinners - Away from home (away and neutral for other teams, away for Pakistan)
View attachment 83592

That's some excellent record for India.

 

[Abdullah719]

I think any comparison thread should be presented with bowling units performance. Otherwise , it's not backed by any stats. OP is saying Indian pace attack is ahead and he is right, but here are stats for the last 3 years,

Overall performances of bowlers in last 3 years

Spoiler

View attachment 83587
.
Pacers
View attachment 83588
.
Spinners
View attachment 83589
.
Away from home (away and neutral for other teams, away for Pakistan)
View attachment 83590
.
Pacers - Away from home (away and neutral for other teams, away for Pakistan)
View attachment 83591
.
Spinners - Away from home (away and neutral for other teams, away for Pakistan)
View attachment 83592

Thanks. Bit busy so didn't add myself

 

[BaankeJi]

I think any comparison thread should be presented with bowling units performance. Otherwise , it's not backed by any stats. OP is saying Indian pace attack is ahead and he is right, but here are stats for the last 3 years,

Overall performances of bowlers in last 3 years
View attachment 83587
.
Pacers
View attachment 83588
.
Spinners
View attachment 83589
.
Away from home (away and neutral for other teams, away for Pakistan)
View attachment 83590
.
Pacers - Away from home (away and neutral for other teams, away for Pakistan)
View attachment 83591
.
Spinners - Away from home (away and neutral for other teams, away for Pakistan)
View attachment 83592

Those stats are irrelevant. They don't conclude anything.
If we can have average score per top order batsman along with these stats, we can derive a conclusion.

 

[Mp812]

44.2- Strike rate of India fast bowlers in this series, is the best for any visiting team in a series in England in last 100 years. It is also the best striking rate for India pacers in any series outside Asia,

http://www.espncricinfo.com/story/_/id/24525096/india-quicks-set-new-benchmark-england

 

[Buffet]

Thanks. Bit busy so didn't add myself

That's all right. I just copied from some other thread and put it here.

 

[Napa]

That's all right. I just copied from some other thread and put it here.

To give credit where it is due, the excellent graphics were first posted by [MENTION=88991]AlizeeFan[/MENTION]

 

[Buffet]

Those stats are irrelevant. They don't conclude anything.
If we can have average score per top order batsman along with these stats, we can derive a conclusion.

For any bowling unit, how they are averaging over a long period is not irrelevant.

 

[BaankeJi]

For any bowling unit, how they are averaging over a long period is not irrelevant.

Well, last 3 years of India's games have been dominated by bowling friendly pitches.

 

[Napa]

Well, last 3 years of India's games have been dominated by bowling friendly pitches.

On "bowling friendly pitches" the Indian team team in the last NZ, Eng, Aus series in India, has scored 700+ in 1 innings, 600+ in 2 innings, 500+ in 1 innings and 400+ in 3 innings out of a total of 26 innings.

http://www.espncricinfo.com/scores/s...series-2016-17
http://www.espncricinfo.com/scores/s...series-2016-17
http://www.espncricinfo.com/scores/s...trophy-2016-17

In contrast, England have gone 15 innings since last making 400, against Australia in Melbourne in December.

 

[ManFan]

India has been the better attack over the last few years.

With the likes of Abbas, Hasan, Amir, Shaheen and Bumrah, Ishant, Yadav, and Shami, we will have a comprehensive comparison over the next few years.

 

[BaankeJi]

On "bowling friendly pitches" the Indian team team in the last NZ, Eng, Aus series in India, has scored 700+ in 1 innings, 600+ in 2 innings, 500+ in 1 innings and 400+ in 3 innings out of a total of 26 innings.

http://www.espncricinfo.com/scores/s...series-2016-17
http://www.espncricinfo.com/scores/s...series-2016-17
http://www.espncricinfo.com/scores/s...trophy-2016-17

In contrast, England have gone 15 innings since last making 400, against Australia in Melbourne in December.

That is a good piece of statistics. But my original point still stands. These graphics don't say the other side of story.

 

[Buffet]

Well, last 3 years of India's games have been dominated by bowling friendly pitches.

That's true , but Indians used to not do well in past even on bowling friendly wickets. Indians used to do well in 1-2 matches, but not consistently do well on good pitches. Now they are doing well.

 

[Buffet]

That is a good piece of statistics. But my original point still stands. These graphics don't say the other side of story.

Here is other side of story,

Batting average of all batting units in the last 3 years.



Now Indians have gotten many helpful pitches to bowl, but all pitches can't be that bowler friendly otherwise they won't average 38 per wicket in batting on same pitches.

I think credit should be given for Indian bowling unit.

 

[par]

Here is other side of story,

Batting average of all batting units in the last 3 years.

View attachment 83593

Now Indians have gotten many helpful pitches to bowl, but all pitches can't be that bowler friendly otherwise they won't average 38 per wicket in batting on same pitches.

I think credit should be given for Indian bowling unit.

To add to your point, this is the away batting average for the last 3 years. The pic shows Pak's away and nuetral record. If only away is considered the average is 27.84.

 

[giri26]

Indian bowling has been doing very over over the last 3 years. I understand that the Pakistan fans don't rate Indian bowling but credit must be given where due. The bowling has certainly improved and the fitness as well.

 

[Usman Chadda]

Last 3 years

How many bowlers in the current Pakistan team made their debut 3 years back? You are comparing an inexperienced bowling attack with a fairly experienced one. The likes of Sharma, Kumar, Shami, Yadav etc have been playing since ages and were woeful early into their careers.

 

[BlackShadow]

Last 3 years

How many bowlers in the current Pakistan team made their debut 3 years back? You are comparing an inexperienced bowling attack with a fairly experienced one. The likes of Sharma, Kumar, Shami, Yadav etc have been playing since ages and were woeful early into their careers.

Then why compare a bunch of rookies to the best bowling attack of last 3 years? Or do you guys expect non-Pakistanis to board the hype train and forget everything else?

 

[BlackShadow]

Here is other side of story,

Batting average of all batting units in the last 3 years.

View attachment 83593

Now Indians have gotten many helpful pitches to bowl, but all pitches can't be that bowler friendly otherwise they won't average 38 per wicket in batting on same pitches.

I think credit should be given for Indian bowling unit.

Must be some secret BCCI technology where they control foreign pitches from Mumbai headquarters. Batting friendly when India bats and bowling friendly when the bowlers bowl.

 

[WhenSultansBowled]

Voted for Pakistan.

Some things will never change. And one of those things is Pakistani pacers > Indian pacers.

We were better in 50s, 60s, 70s, 80s, 90s, 00s and will end up better in 10s Insha'Allah.

 

[Usman Chadda]

Then why compare a bunch of rookies to the best bowling attack of last 3 years? Or do you guys expect non-Pakistanis to board the hype train and forget everything else?

I guess the hype train is based on potential? I'm confident this Pakistan bowling attack will be world class with a bit of experience, considering they have already won Pakistan matches in their infancy. At the moment, South Africa and India are ahead and should not be compared to a bunch of rookies.

 

[Abdullah719]

Not much in it, going by the stats.

 

[Ganju Baba]

View attachment 86830

Not much in it, going by the stats.

Till 25th Dec means current Tests being played by 6 teams not included? Given that India, SA and NZ are having a great run with ball, final stats should be interesting.

PS: Dayum, Aussies are horrible atm.

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

Voted for Pakistan.

Some things will never change. And one of those things is Pakistani pacers > Indian pacers.

We were better in 50s, 60s, 70s, 80s, 90s, 00s and will end up better in 10s Insha'Allah.

Nope.

 

[Abdullah719]

Till 25th Dec means current Tests being played by 6 teams not included? Given that India, SA and NZ are having a great run with ball, final stats should be interesting.

PS: Dayum, Aussies are horrible atm.

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/en...pan;team_view=bowl;template=results;type=team

India slightly ahead in the live stats.

 

[Ganju Baba]

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/en...pan;team_view=bowl;template=results;type=team

India slightly ahead in the live stats.

Thanks. With last of Pakistan's bowling done for 2018, I am hoping that India will increase that slight lead.

 

[shariqnoor]

For the past 40 years before 2010, Pakistani pacers have been better than Indians because we have always had flat batting pitches with no help for the faster bowlers nor for the spinners. Whereas Indian pitches have always turned favouring spinners. Which is why you have seen better spinners from India and better fast bowlers from Pakistan.

Flat batting pitches forces two things. .

1. You have to become extreme quick in order to succeed (140kph on average)

2. Learn reverse swing.

That is why we've had much success.

But over the last 10 years, we've had green wet pitches in Pakistan that promotes dibbly dobblers. So we're neither producing fast bowlers nor spinners.

 

[barah_admi]

The future is bright for Pakistan's bowling with the likes of Amir, Hasan, Shaheen, Abbas (most likely) yet to hit their peaks. However, I think India is ahead right now as the pace attack has performed well consistently for the past couple of years. Pakistan's bowlers barring Yasir Shah and Mohammad Amir are all much less experienced.

Pretty much summed it up already. India are just about ahead but Pakistan have better potential, the better spinner (and rising spinner) and the best fats bowling debutant of 2018 in Shaheen.

 

[Zakaz]

India is ahead atm but Pakistan has much higher potential than Indians

 

[barah_admi]

For the past 40 years before 2010, Pakistani pacers have been better than Indians because we have always had flat batting pitches with no help for the faster bowlers nor for the spinners. Whereas Indian pitches have always turned favouring spinners. Which is why you have seen better spinners from India and better fast bowlers from Pakistan.

Flat batting pitches forces two things. .

1. You have to become extreme quick in order to succeed (140kph on average)

2. Learn reverse swing.

That is why we've had much success.

But over the last 10 years, we've had green wet pitches in Pakistan that promotes dibbly dobblers. So we're neither producing fast bowlers nor spinners.

Ever heard of Saeed Ajmal, Yasir Shah and Shadab Khan? Not to mention the likes of Rehman and co who were all very good back up spinners.

The fats bowling in terms of sheer pace is an issue but in reality, outside of Aus, who has bowlers that consistently hit 145-150 or more? No one.

Pakistan have a pretty good line up, obviously none are Khan, Wasim, Waqar or Akhtar.

 

[Greenstorm]

India is ahead atm. We rely heavily on Abbas.

 

[IMMY69]

Pakistan’s bowling has never been a problem...

If anything they’ll be 20pct better if our batsmen showed some IQ on a consistent basis.

 

[Bilal7]

Pakistan's attack has simply gone back to the norm but India's has seen the biggest improvement. I still feel that they can do better than Ishant Sharma and should blood Khaleel Ahmed in but nonetheless, their pace attack has been really good. A combined Indo-Pak test bowling attack would be:

Abbas
Amir
Bumrah
Shah

With Ashwin or Jadeja playing in the bowling all-rounder's spot for a complete attack.

 

[lehen]

Pakistan's attack has simply gone back to the norm but India's has seen the biggest improvement. I still feel that they can do better than Ishant Sharma and should blood Khaleel Ahmed in but nonetheless, their pace attack has been really good. A combined Indo-Pak test bowling attack would be:

Abbas
Amir
Bumrah
Shah

With Ashwin or Jadeja playing in the bowling all-rounder's spot for a complete attack.

In tests Mohammada Siraj is the real deal

 

[Bilal7]

In tests Mohammada Siraj is the real deal

Heard good things about him too.

 

[AMSS]

Pakistan's attack has simply gone back to the norm but India's has seen the biggest improvement. I still feel that they can do better than Ishant Sharma and should blood Khaleel Ahmed in but nonetheless, their pace attack has been really good. A combined Indo-Pak test bowling attack would be:

Abbas
Amir
Bumrah
Shah

With Ashwin or Jadeja playing in the bowling all-rounder's spot for a complete attack.

Yes, a crappy team ranked 7 would get 3 bowling spots out of 4.

Tell us more.

 

[AMSS]

On Ishant, his career has got a second wind, not dissimilar to Zaheer. What's he averaging this year, 21? Here's why you can expect to see him being a permanent cog in this Indian team provided he maintains his performance at current levels:

1) Uber fit for a fast bowler.

2) Offers control and can bowl dry.

3) Capable of bowling LONG spells of 9-10 overs. Priceless when you want your strike bowlers fresh.

This beanpole is on course to end up with close to 400 test wickets.

 

[Sidilicious]

Pakistan's attack has simply gone back to the norm but India's has seen the biggest improvement. I still feel that they can do better than Ishant Sharma and should blood Khaleel Ahmed in but nonetheless, their pace attack has been really good. A combined Indo-Pak test bowling attack would be:

Abbas
Amir
Bumrah
Shah

With Ashwin or Jadeja playing in the bowling all-rounder's spot for a complete attack.

Amir and Ishant have been doing a very similar role over the last couple of years, out of which Ishant has been more successful in tests. Amir has taken 60 wickets in 20 matches @ 32 in the last 3 years, whereas Ishant has taken 64 wickets in 22 matches @ 26. So how will you have Ishant instead of Amir.

For 3 pacers, the attack would be
Abbas
Ishant
Bumrah

The spinner can be toss up between either Yasir or Ashwin or Jadeja, though I would personally go for Ashwin. They all have been equally good or equally bad. But Ashwin and Jadeja will get the nod due to their batting.

 

[Bubby]

Also two things I would like to add here, even this year Ranji has seen some outstanding performances from fast bowlers, guys like avesh who has improved a lot has taken heaps of wicket so has ankit rajpoot even mavi has been impressive,
Second all the domestic sides are now understanding the importance of fast bowlers hence you will see a lot of bowlers with sharp pace, kudos to bcci as well, though Nagarkotti is injured but bcci is making sure that he gets the best of the medical facility and not rushing him in and have started nurturing and investing in u19 bowlers as well.

 

[ikky47]

I think the South African's have the best pace attack followed by India/Australia then its Pakistan/New Zealand (For all conditions). England have a good pace attack for certain conditions but not all imo.

 

[Usman Chadda]

India's best ever pace attack is marginally worse in terms of statistics this year than an inexperienced Pakistan pace attack with a combined total of 53 test matches.

Yes, Indian pacers are WAY better than Pakistan bowlers

 

[Rightarmfast]

India's best ever pace attack is marginally worse in terms of statistics this year than an inexperienced Pakistan pace attack with a combined total of 53 test matches.

Yes, Indian pacers are WAY better than Pakistan bowlers

Read the fine prints my brother. Stats are not for fast bowlers. They include spinners as well. So, while your spinners have been playing on the dusty pitches of UAE, our spinners were playing in S Africa, Eng and Aus! Go figure!

 

[shariqnoor]

Ever heard of Saeed Ajmal, Yasir Shah and Shadab Khan? Not to mention the likes of Rehman and co who were all very good back up spinners.

The fats bowling in terms of sheer pace is an issue but in reality, outside of Aus, who has bowlers that consistently hit 145-150 or more? No one.

Pakistan have a pretty good line up, obviously none are Khan, Wasim, Waqar or Akhtar.

Ajmal was a certified chucker. Sorry he doesn't count. India have always produced the better spinners. Prasanna, Chandrashekhar, Bedi, Gupte, Kumble, Harbhajan, Ashwin, Jadeja, Kuldeep.

From Pakistan. Saqlain and Yasir are good. Although Yasir has a big question mark as he is hopeless in NZ, SA and Australia.

 

[Usman Chadda]

Read the fine prints my brother. Stats are not for fast bowlers. They include spinners as well. So, while your spinners have been playing on the dusty pitches of UAE, our spinners were playing in S Africa, Eng and Aus! Go figure!

Okay. Let's have the stats strictly for pace bowlers. Doubt that will show much difference. Correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[Banter]

Okay. Let's have the stats strictly for pace bowlers. Doubt that will show much difference. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Put aside Abbas' fantastic stats and the rest of Pakistan pace bowlers are pedestrian. Indian pace bowlers outside of Bumrah have been top-shelf.

 

[Usman Chadda]

Put aside Abbas' fantastic stats and the rest of Pakistan pace bowlers are pedestrian. Indian pace bowlers outside of Bumrah have been top-shelf.

Hasan and Amir had brilliant individual performances aswell this year. So did Shaheen one innings ago.

Let's have the stats. I'll be here to admit I'm wrong, if I'm wrong.

 

[Nikhil_cric]

Hasan and Amir had brilliant individual performances aswell this year. So did Shaheen one innings ago.

Let's have the stats. I'll be here to admit I'm wrong, if I'm wrong.

You're not wrong. Pakistani pacers have been better than Indian pacers by a small margin over the last 12 months if you go by bowling averages. Primarily due to Abbas i think.

 

[Mr. Cricket]

India is ahead atm but Pakistan has much higher potential than Indians

How please enlighten us. Just bcz you produce some great bowler in past doesn't mean you always do.
Previously, most the time it is batting mean cricket for us but now both of the things are important.
We knew the value of pace attack that's why we are able to produce good bowling attack now and many players will fill the place in the future like nagarkoti and other potential bowler in first class cricket.
India bowling and batting, and as a team we will remain better than Pakistan even if we become good in football bcz we are slowly become sports friendly nation.
We have professional league for every major sports. This helps in long term and the classic example is table-tennis league which improve India in TT and we able to win gold medal in CWG and bronze in Asian games and earlier, we used to be pretty avg in this field.
We have now star like Monika batra, hema das and other from various sports.
Talent not always mean you will be best.
Lack of professionalism and infrastructure in Pakistan hurting it's sports culture.
So Pakistani bowling has potential to become better than Pakistan is not true.

 

[Abdullah719]

Read the fine prints my brother. Stats are not for fast bowlers. They include spinners as well. So, while your spinners have been playing on the dusty pitches of UAE, our spinners were playing in S Africa, Eng and Aus! Go figure!

Okay. Let's have the stats strictly for pace bowlers. Doubt that will show much difference. Correct me if I'm wrong.

You're not wrong. Pakistani pacers have been better than Indian pacers by a small margin over the last 12 months if you go by bowling averages. Primarily due to Abbas i think.

Pretty good year for the pace bowlers.

 

[WhenSultansBowled]

How please enlighten us. Just bcz you produce some great bowler in past doesn't mean you always do.
Previously, most the time it is batting mean cricket for us but now both of the things are important.
We knew the value of pace attack that's why we are able to produce good bowling attack now and many players will fill the place in the future like nagarkoti and other potential bowler in first class cricket.
India bowling and batting, and as a team we will remain better than Pakistan even if we become good in football bcz we are slowly become sports friendly nation.
We have professional league for every major sports. This helps in long term and the classic example is table-tennis league which improve India in TT and we able to win gold medal in CWG and bronze in Asian games and earlier, we used to be pretty avg in this field.
We have now star like Monika batra, hema das and other from various sports.
Talent not always mean you will be best.
Lack of professionalism and infrastructure in Pakistan hurting it's sports culture.
So Pakistani bowling has potential to become better than Pakistan is not true.

Lack of professionalism and infrastructure in Pakistan hurting it's sports culture.

True. Worse enough tho as there's hardly any infrastructure, tbh. Didn't Misbah uploaded a picture of the prison cell where 1st class teams' change room

So Pakistani bowling has potential to become better than Pakistan is not true

You mean India?
In any case, I get a feeling India's pace attack is a finished product, more settled and performing nicely.

 

[WhenSultansBowled]

Pretty good year for the pace bowlers.

I wish there were a stats column for dropped catches. These stats would be sooo different.

The kind of fielding South African bowlers have does make a HUGE difference.

 

[Tusker]

India's best ever pace attack is marginally worse in terms of statistics this year than an inexperienced Pakistan pace attack with a combined total of 53 test matches.

Yes, Indian pacers are WAY better than Pakistan bowlers

Read the fine prints my brother. Stats are not for fast bowlers. They include spinners as well. So, while your spinners have been playing on the dusty pitches of UAE, our spinners were playing in S Africa, Eng and Aus! Go figure!

see below stats for just fast bowlers since Apr 2015 which is the cut off for rankings and gives us a much better perspective to compare . You can see how the avg and SR difference is significantly in favor of India

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/en...5;spanval2=span;template=results;type=bowling


And for last 12 months ( not much difference here ):

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/en...7;spanval2=span;template=results;type=bowling

 

[Abdullah719]

I wish there were a stats column for dropped catches. These stats would be sooo different.

The kind of fielding South African bowlers have does make a HUGE difference.

I don't think Pakistan have dropped too many catches this year. Slip catching has generally been very good.

 

[Mr. Cricket]

True. Worse enough tho as there's hardly any infrastructure, tbh. Didn't Misbah uploaded a picture of the prison cell where 1st class teams' change room

That's why your PCT is rank 7th in test and 6th in odi, 14th in hockey and didn't even a single player qualify for Olympic despite having 20 crore population.
The reason for me is infrastructure, surely India doesn't have as good as developed country but since our economy is growing we are improve and have have professional league for every major sports where player from all over the world play. Not like Pakistan where even people not ready to play cricket.

 

[Usman Chadda]

see below stats for just fast bowlers since Apr 2015 which is the cut off for rankings and gives us a much better perspective to compare . You can see how the avg and SR difference is significantly in favor of India

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/en...5;spanval2=span;template=results;type=bowling


And for last 12 months ( not much difference here ):

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/en...7;spanval2=span;template=results;type=bowling

Pakistan and West Indies have had completely different bowling attacks from Apr 2015 to now. Comparing the last year is a fair reflection of the CURRENT strength of the pace bowling attacks.

 

[saeed5646]

in last 2 years in test.Glad removing mediocre bowler like imran khan,rahat ali,wahab riaz have improved our bowling in test

 

[Buffet]

in last 2 years in test.Glad removing mediocre bowler like imran khan,rahat ali,wahab riaz have improved our bowling in test


View attachment 87287

How does it look after removing debutante Ireland and Afghanistan?

 

[saeed5646]

How does it look after removing debutante Ireland and Afghanistan?

I have no idea .i think it is fair for both team as india played afghanistan while pakistan played ireland