Stallion__
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Lara still averages greater even if I exclude Ws from Sachin's record
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Brian Lara and Sachin Tendulkar's stats vs best bowlers
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Lara still averages greater even if I exclude Ws from Sachin's record
Chrish
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I expect better from you mate!
Understand ur recent frustration with the fanboys but you shouldn't become a tool for the trolls in the process
Try not to judge a player by his fanboys..
Stallion__
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Chrish
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You purposely tried to mislead others by including these players when you know that yourself they shouldn't be in this discussion
You did the same in other thread where people were arguing about Lara vs SRT facing pace bowling.. Being selective about bowlers a certain player faced to make him look pale in comparison
Your posting pattern has become bit faulty compared to where you started
miandadrules
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Why don't you post a "fuller" picture then.
Stallion__
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I am just pointing out the inconsistencies and flaws in the logics being presented, nothing wrong in doing that in my opinion.
I didn't select any bowler of my own liking or purposely (as you are assuming, neither here, not even in the other thread). I checked the top bowlers of that era before including their names, so there was no pick and chose. (Trust me I can do a much better job if I deliberately try to nitpick stats).
I genuinely feel that Sachin's record in 90s shouldn't be presented as a benchmark statement, to prove his superiority over Lara or others, because that argument is weak itself. Pointing out unplugged holes in others arguments has nothing to do with any sort of frustration (which isn't the case anyways).
Lara does have 6 50s, however no hundreds. Same with facing Wasim, waqur. A great batsman surely scores 100s against the best bowlers. Lara's average did dip dramatically from period to period, I will show you the stat.
Donald himself stated sachin was the best he ever bowled to.
If we are going to state odi knocks that lara has played then we might aswell compare lara vs tendulkar in pressure knockout games, lara did not score in all 5 must win knockout games surely a test of a batsman. Tendulkar has 2 World Cup semi final 50s in must win games. Lara was bowled out by tendulkar hero cup final 83.
Lara was very inconsistent, tendulkar excluding minnows averaged over 50 in 32 series. lara just 16.
Donald himself stated sachin was the best he ever bowled to.
If we are going to state odi knocks that lara has played then we might aswell compare lara vs tendulkar in pressure knockout games, lara did not score in all 5 must win knockout games surely a test of a batsman. Tendulkar has 2 World Cup semi final 50s in must win games. Lara was bowled out by tendulkar hero cup final 83.
Lara was very inconsistent, tendulkar excluding minnows averaged over 50 in 32 series. lara just 16.
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miandadrules
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Why does Lara average higher than Tendiulkar against Donald?
Chrish
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Extremely error prone way of evaluating stats as I already pointed out
I have no doubt you can do much better job here
Why does Tendulkar overall average higher than Lara? Despite many scores of 175+?
Why does Tendulkar average more than 50 is a series a staggering 16 more times than Lara excluding all the minnows?
Why does Lara have no hundred against Wasim, Waqur, Donald when he clearly had the chance to score 100s? He faced them multiple times.
Why did Lara's average dip from 60 to 49 from 96-99?
Lara's lowest average is 47, Tendulkar's average on the other hand has always been in the mid-high 50's his average did not fluctuate dramatically ever like Lara's, once Tendulkar was in the 50s, his average never went below 54.
Why does Tendulkar average more than 50 is a series a staggering 16 more times than Lara excluding all the minnows?
Why does Lara have no hundred against Wasim, Waqur, Donald when he clearly had the chance to score 100s? He faced them multiple times.
Why did Lara's average dip from 60 to 49 from 96-99?
Lara's lowest average is 47, Tendulkar's average on the other hand has always been in the mid-high 50's his average did not fluctuate dramatically ever like Lara's, once Tendulkar was in the 50s, his average never went below 54.
Stallion__
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I am not evaluating anything on my own. Just giving back others, the dose of their own argumentation (here and even in the other thread).
Sachin's average of 58 in 90s is presented in a way that it seems like he has achieved that by batting exclusively to great bowlers.
My views on Sachin and Lara are independent of any trolling or counter-trolling here.
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miandadrules
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So after going on and on about Tendulkar hammering Donald with an average of 32 you have now abandoned the idea completely.
Pretty pathetic actually.
miandadrules
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Why does he average less against the best bowlers on the 90s too?
And this time try to answer the question rather than cut and paste the same babble.
IndianWillow
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Heart says Lara head says Sachin!
I personally have a preference for Lara though I think Sachin was the marginally better batsman. Sachin's defence was watertight and it was very difficult to exploit any holes in his technique. Lara was joyful to watch but you thought bowlers always had a chance to dismiss him, he was adventurous - he lived and died by the sword. An all time XI ideally needs both Sachin and Lara, though I would vote for Sachin if I could pick only one player.
Sachin had the ability of both Richards and Gavaskar. He could smash a run a ball hundred and could make a patient 100(250) if he applied himself. During the early part of his career Sachin was more like Richards - which endeared him to Don Bradman who included him in his dream XI, even over Richards (which is no small matter if you were a non Australian given that Bradman chose seven Aussies in his team). But due to team India's weak composition Sachin was forced to cut down on aggression. Sachin sacrificed aggression for the team's cause in the 90s. The 90s scorecards are full of matches where Sachin had to bat under pressure due to the ineptness of his team mates. Sachin often had to curb his attacking instincts for the team's welfare. Sachin of the 90s was one of the best test players ever, and I used to switch off my TV in disgust whenever Sachin got out because other batsmen were usually hopeless, especially when India played away.
But Sachin disappointed me after his mid career. He began to prioritize personal records and rarely seized the initiative when the situation demanded it. I am still perplexed why he never moved out of his comfort zone at #4. I have great respect for batsmen who move up the order and take the challenge to the opposition, which is why I have a soft corner for Dravid who was probably the most selfless player India ever had. Sachin never did that and always hid behind the top order, when he was very much capable of batting up the order (at least occasionally). Sachin never made it to Wisden top 100 because he did not grab the opportunities to control match outcomes. He was content building on the solid platform laid out by the openers and #3 batsmen. Lara also batted at #4 but Lara often took up the challenge to bat at #3 - this is one reason I admire Lara a lot. Lara averaged 60 at #3 in 43 innings, which is incredible. Lara's averages and Sachin's averages cannot be compare one on one because Lara some times batted at #3 when the batting conditions were more difficult and Lara proved very versatile batting at both #3 and #4. Sachin has the highest number of dismissals in the nervous 40s, 90s,140s etc - a total of 36 dismissals - he was so attached to those milestones that he often slowed down significantly (even though he does not play slowly at other times) to get these milestones (and often got out due to the milestone pressure).
I personally have a preference for Lara though I think Sachin was the marginally better batsman. Sachin's defence was watertight and it was very difficult to exploit any holes in his technique. Lara was joyful to watch but you thought bowlers always had a chance to dismiss him, he was adventurous - he lived and died by the sword. An all time XI ideally needs both Sachin and Lara, though I would vote for Sachin if I could pick only one player.
Sachin had the ability of both Richards and Gavaskar. He could smash a run a ball hundred and could make a patient 100(250) if he applied himself. During the early part of his career Sachin was more like Richards - which endeared him to Don Bradman who included him in his dream XI, even over Richards (which is no small matter if you were a non Australian given that Bradman chose seven Aussies in his team). But due to team India's weak composition Sachin was forced to cut down on aggression. Sachin sacrificed aggression for the team's cause in the 90s. The 90s scorecards are full of matches where Sachin had to bat under pressure due to the ineptness of his team mates. Sachin often had to curb his attacking instincts for the team's welfare. Sachin of the 90s was one of the best test players ever, and I used to switch off my TV in disgust whenever Sachin got out because other batsmen were usually hopeless, especially when India played away.
But Sachin disappointed me after his mid career. He began to prioritize personal records and rarely seized the initiative when the situation demanded it. I am still perplexed why he never moved out of his comfort zone at #4. I have great respect for batsmen who move up the order and take the challenge to the opposition, which is why I have a soft corner for Dravid who was probably the most selfless player India ever had. Sachin never did that and always hid behind the top order, when he was very much capable of batting up the order (at least occasionally). Sachin never made it to Wisden top 100 because he did not grab the opportunities to control match outcomes. He was content building on the solid platform laid out by the openers and #3 batsmen. Lara also batted at #4 but Lara often took up the challenge to bat at #3 - this is one reason I admire Lara a lot. Lara averaged 60 at #3 in 43 innings, which is incredible. Lara's averages and Sachin's averages cannot be compare one on one because Lara some times batted at #3 when the batting conditions were more difficult and Lara proved very versatile batting at both #3 and #4. Sachin has the highest number of dismissals in the nervous 40s, 90s,140s etc - a total of 36 dismissals - he was so attached to those milestones that he often slowed down significantly (even though he does not play slowly at other times) to get these milestones (and often got out due to the milestone pressure).
Chrish
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I have little desire to get involved in this thread
As far as "fuller" picture goes, one is not gonna get it here.. This place is full of people who either worship him or despise him.. There seems to be little middle ground here
Try neutral forum for this discussion.. Filled by more unbiased views
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As for Donald's average, an average of 32.90 and 34.05 (33-34) is no major difference. Tendulkar has two hundreds and his 169 under pressure. Now that is the difference, despite the small average difference.
Lara has more scores of 175+ and that's why he averages more. You could argue Tendulkar faced all the dominant bowlers and scored hundreds against them, in contrast to Lara, he hasn't.
Why did Lara's average dip very dramatically from 60-49 in start 96-start 99? Why did Lara's average go so low into 47? In contrast to Sachin who always averaged 56-54, never lower than 54.
Seriously a great batsman of an era must score a hundred against all the best bowlers of the era and his average should never go down so low, so dramatically.
Lara has more scores of 175+ and that's why he averages more. You could argue Tendulkar faced all the dominant bowlers and scored hundreds against them, in contrast to Lara, he hasn't.
Why did Lara's average dip very dramatically from 60-49 in start 96-start 99? Why did Lara's average go so low into 47? In contrast to Sachin who always averaged 56-54, never lower than 54.
Seriously a great batsman of an era must score a hundred against all the best bowlers of the era and his average should never go down so low, so dramatically.
My basis for the best batsman of the era is, LIKE MANY scoring hundreds against all the best bowlers of the era and consistency is minimum another factor is playing better away from home, moreover play well when the chips are down.
If Lara has done all of this, then Lara is best between the two, hands down.
If Lara has done all of this, then Lara is best between the two, hands down.
miandadrules
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So now it's no major difference?
Despite two centuries he still averages less than him. Goes to show that he flopped pretty much every other time.
Why are you suddenly shifting the discussion away from Donald?
I asked you before not paste your babble again and instead give a genuine answer.
According to that average Tendulkar didn't dominate at all.
miandadrules
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If your not interested then why raise an objection? If you're not expecting a balanced discussion on this forum why take offence to what is being posted?
If a balanced discussion can't be found here then why are you expecting one nor making an effort to present one.
Aren't you then simply adding to the quagmire you so openly despise?
miandadrules
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Tendulkar certainly wasn't consistant Vs Donald.
miandadrules
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Another gem from you. The reason why he averages more is because he has scores in excess of 175. So that should be held against him? The fact that he scores big hundreds is a negative?
Genius!
This thread is still going strong i see 
Let me put my case across as to why i feel Tendulkar was a better player against better bowling.
Lets start with the fact that Tendulkar has a better record in two most difficult conditions for a batsman to play in during that era, Aus and SA.
While Lara was busy inflating his stats in dead rubbers in Aus (just check his performances in 1997 and 2005 there, was inconsistent in 2000 too) , Tendulkar won a man of the series award in 1999 against Mgrath/Warne and B.Lee in the form of his life. SRT's performance in the Aus tour in 1992 and 2008 were consistent, while he was inconsistent in 2004 and failed in 2011.
In SA, SRT scored 4 of his 5 hundreds with either Donald or Steyn in the attack. The ton against Donald in 1997 is notable in particular due to the treatment he meted out to him hitting him for approx a dozen boundaries. The other hundred came against Pollock in 2001 when Pollock was going through a Waqar-esue peak averaging 17.xx between 1998-2001. Lara scored two hundreds in SA against Nel/Ntini/Pollock.
In Eng and NZ , SRT was WAY more consistent that Lara. Although both players did not face any genuine ATG bowling in those countries. Lara had one successful series in England compared to SRT's 3 (arguably 4) while Lara averages 37 in NZ.
SRT did considerably better in WI than Lara did in India. SRT had a successful series against Ambrose/Walsh in 1997 while Lara did not manage any significant innings in India.
In SL, it is tricky to compare. While SRT had three successful series and failed miserably in one, Lara delivered one of the all time great series against Murali at his peak. Tendulkar and Murali did not face each other at their peaks in SL. SRT played 4 series in SL while Lara played one, so i would consider them equal in the country.
In Pak, SRT and Lara both played 3 series. SRT averaged 35 in 1989 (against Wasim/Waqar/Imran) 60 odd in 2004 (against Akhtar, a waning Mushtaq) and 21 in 2006 (against a raging Asif and an out of form Akhtar) But SRT has easily his worst and most inconsistent test record of his career in Pakistan averaging 41 or something there. Lara did better in Pak though he averaged 23 in Pak during the 90's when the two W's were at their peak. He made up for the average in 2006 when he cashed in on an attack consisting of Kaneria/Razzaq/Gul/Nazir/Malik.
At home, Lara did considerably better than SRT averaging 59 compared to SRT's 52. Against bowlers like Mcgrath/Donald/Wasim/Waqar he did well, especially being severe to McGrath. SRT could not dominate ATG bowlers at home as well as Lara did.
AS far as performances against ATG bowlers at home is concerned i can point out many batsmen who did exceedingly well. Batsmen like Gavaskar, Sehwag, KP etc. immediately spring to mind. BUt how many have held their own away from home against the greatest of bowlers? Not too many, and maybe none as good as SRT. And thats why my vote goes to him.
Let me put my case across as to why i feel Tendulkar was a better player against better bowling.
Lets start with the fact that Tendulkar has a better record in two most difficult conditions for a batsman to play in during that era, Aus and SA.
While Lara was busy inflating his stats in dead rubbers in Aus (just check his performances in 1997 and 2005 there, was inconsistent in 2000 too) , Tendulkar won a man of the series award in 1999 against Mgrath/Warne and B.Lee in the form of his life. SRT's performance in the Aus tour in 1992 and 2008 were consistent, while he was inconsistent in 2004 and failed in 2011.
In SA, SRT scored 4 of his 5 hundreds with either Donald or Steyn in the attack. The ton against Donald in 1997 is notable in particular due to the treatment he meted out to him hitting him for approx a dozen boundaries. The other hundred came against Pollock in 2001 when Pollock was going through a Waqar-esue peak averaging 17.xx between 1998-2001. Lara scored two hundreds in SA against Nel/Ntini/Pollock.
In Eng and NZ , SRT was WAY more consistent that Lara. Although both players did not face any genuine ATG bowling in those countries. Lara had one successful series in England compared to SRT's 3 (arguably 4) while Lara averages 37 in NZ.
SRT did considerably better in WI than Lara did in India. SRT had a successful series against Ambrose/Walsh in 1997 while Lara did not manage any significant innings in India.
In SL, it is tricky to compare. While SRT had three successful series and failed miserably in one, Lara delivered one of the all time great series against Murali at his peak. Tendulkar and Murali did not face each other at their peaks in SL. SRT played 4 series in SL while Lara played one, so i would consider them equal in the country.
In Pak, SRT and Lara both played 3 series. SRT averaged 35 in 1989 (against Wasim/Waqar/Imran) 60 odd in 2004 (against Akhtar, a waning Mushtaq) and 21 in 2006 (against a raging Asif and an out of form Akhtar) But SRT has easily his worst and most inconsistent test record of his career in Pakistan averaging 41 or something there. Lara did better in Pak though he averaged 23 in Pak during the 90's when the two W's were at their peak. He made up for the average in 2006 when he cashed in on an attack consisting of Kaneria/Razzaq/Gul/Nazir/Malik.
At home, Lara did considerably better than SRT averaging 59 compared to SRT's 52. Against bowlers like Mcgrath/Donald/Wasim/Waqar he did well, especially being severe to McGrath. SRT could not dominate ATG bowlers at home as well as Lara did.
AS far as performances against ATG bowlers at home is concerned i can point out many batsmen who did exceedingly well. Batsmen like Gavaskar, Sehwag, KP etc. immediately spring to mind. BUt how many have held their own away from home against the greatest of bowlers? Not too many, and maybe none as good as SRT. And thats why my vote goes to him.
Chrish
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I am only upset about quality poster submitting to trolls.. I don't expect anything better from other posters
As far as the overall discussion in this thread goes, I haven't bothered to read half of the posts here.. No point as it was only gonna be pi!ss contest btw two sides
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miandadrules
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So you either came in to the thread specifically to read one Posters comments or you critiqued his post without context?
@miandad,
I'm not holding anything from Lara, despite his many scores of 175, he still averages less than Tendulkar. Scoring 175 numerous times is a great feat.
You called me genius, what genius is you thinking Lara is better because he has never ever scored a hundred against Wasim, Waqur and Donald despite the numerous times he has played against them! And also you ignored Lara's dramatic fall in averages not once, but twice in his career and ignored how Sachin averaged 50 in a whole series16 more times than Lara.
I'm not holding anything from Lara, despite his many scores of 175, he still averages less than Tendulkar. Scoring 175 numerous times is a great feat.
You called me genius, what genius is you thinking Lara is better because he has never ever scored a hundred against Wasim, Waqur and Donald despite the numerous times he has played against them! And also you ignored Lara's dramatic fall in averages not once, but twice in his career and ignored how Sachin averaged 50 in a whole series16 more times than Lara.
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miandadrules
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Did I say he was better? I am pointing the fallacy of your argument.
Once again your regurgitating the same babble.
Tendulkar didn't face Wasim and Waqar anywhere near their peak and averages less than Lara against Donald despite two centuries. So Lara's lower average should be criticised because he scored big hundreds but Tendulkar's lower average should be ignored because he scored a couple of hundreds.
Marvellous!
Bhaijaan
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Two absolute champion batsmen with little separating them, both special and incomparable in their own ways and with backing of different great experts. Warne rates Tendulkar higher, McGrath rates Lara higher so who are we to say anything? Tendulkar, Lara, Ponting to me were the 3 absolute top end batsmen since 90s with massive gap between the next crop consisting of Dravid, Kallis, Sangakkara, Sehwag, Pieterson etc.
miandadrules
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I personally rate Lara and Tendulkar a touch above Ponting but at least you've given a balanced view point and it only took 6 pages.
Bhaijaan
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Personally, i only ever rated one comparison with Tendulkar over the years and thats with Ponting. Being brutally honest, Ponting ruled the roster for a good 4-5 years and in a grand fashion. But 5 years before and after, he was pretty average. Tendulkar was special in the sense that he while he had similarly spectacular peak from 97-02 but was quality player before and after that. Actually Tendulkar had two separate peaks in two different eras which for any sportsman in any sport is a massive thing. Tendulkar 07-11 was phenomenal as well.
Ponting over Lara for me though. Lara had equally embarrassing flop moments but Ponting in ODIs was way better.
Bhaijaan
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Tendulkar 97-02
Ponting 02-07
Two phenomenal batting peaks. Not just in numbers, but more so in terms of impact.
Ponting 02-07
Two phenomenal batting peaks. Not just in numbers, but more so in terms of impact.
Chrish
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SRT, McGrath, Ambrose didn't really have a peak.. Their strengths lie in longevity and consistency
Buffet
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I wasn't talking about Panels/Excricketers etc because that's pretty much one sided. SRT figures in most ATG XI and Lara hardly finds a place.
Now I may be influenced by that wrongly thinking simialr trend among his peers. Let's do an exercise. All peers are too many but there are 12-15 ATG peers of both. Let's list them and see if they have said who was the best. Not looking for dangerous or entertaining or any tag here. Simply the best in generation.
Here are ATG Players who have played against these two. Let's take their definite views. We should also put year to indicate when they said it because only the latest view count. It's natural for folks to change their views with time. We can take even if they have even one match against Lara or SRT, but I have put only who played a lot against these two.
------------------
WI ATG peers:
Lara - "Sachin is the greatest" - 2013
Ambrose - He has refused to single out anyone.
Pakistani ATG peers
Wasim on Sachin - "I have no doubt left in my mind he is the best batsman in the history of the game - 2010
Waqar - "he was the greatest batsman of this era and to maintain the zeal and fitness for 23 years was a big achievement for him" -- 2012
Aus ATGs peers
McGrath - "Steve Waugh, Brian Lara and Inzamam-ul Haq are often compared to the little maestro. Each has his trademark, but Tendulkar combines all of their qualities to make him the best of the lot." - [2002]
Ponting - "Tendulkar was the best batsman he played against" -- [2012]
/Ponting also said that Lara was the most dangerous but we are not talking about any single attribute. we are talking about being rated as the best./
Warne - "Sachin Tendulkar was the best batsman of my generation" -- [2013]
Gilly -
SA ATG peers:
Steyn - Steyn talked about Sachin being the msot difficult but didn't really say that he was the best so it doesn't count.
Donald - "There's Steve Waugh and Brian Lara. And then, a notch above, there's Sachin Tendulkar" -- [2002]
Kallis - "Lara is the best" -- 2014
SL ATG peers:
Murali - "Brian Lara is the best player that has ever been" [2011]
Sanga -
Indian ATG peers:
Dravid -
SRT -
----------------
Feel free to add more names if I missed and find a definite statement about being the best.
ChachaCricket
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[MENTION=97523]Buffet[/MENTION] Don't just give me quotes without any proof because I've heard them say the exact opposite on many occasions. Especially Wasim and Waqar, these two change their opinions like the wind when in India.
Shane Warne recently on commentary comparing the two talked about how Sachin was great but kept raving about Lara's match winning ability. It was pretty obvious whom he rated higher out of the two but just didn't wanna say it on commentary. It was during the Ind-Aus series iirc.
Shane Warne recently on commentary comparing the two talked about how Sachin was great but kept raving about Lara's match winning ability. It was pretty obvious whom he rated higher out of the two but just didn't wanna say it on commentary. It was during the Ind-Aus series iirc.
You can just search the quotes and find the proof for it...
ChachaCricket
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No need because I know whom their peers rate higher.
Chrish
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Not being able to play a single big knock against these three bowlers despite playing them in 30+ innings reflects a failure on batsman's part. No metter which way you try to slice it..
SRT vs two Ws shouldn't enter the debate.. 1st series at the age of 16 where he got dismissed once by each bowler.. Another series where he never got out to these two..
SRT vs Donald is more interesting.. Donald had success against SRT but it was never a one sided battle.. SRT scored a ton at the age of 19 I believe facing Donald in SA when everyone else from his team failed.. And his 169 inning was perhaps his career best ton in which he completely dominated Donald. Moreover Sachin was troubled by the medium pace combo of Cronje and McMillan and got out to them quite often. So it wasn't Donald alone doing the damage like many posters here would like to believe
Lara played McGrath and Murali better, SRT played warne better..
SRT did brilliant against Ambrose and Steyn whom Lara didn't face at international level
Buffet
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So if I want you quote of every single one then you are also trying to give me a quote to counter is saying that other is the best? If you are not going to do that are simply start saying that Wasim/Waqar or anyone else is just saying it to make it look better then I am not going to waste my time.
I will anyway do the work for you and let's see if you present anything substantial or simply saying for sake of saying.
ChachaCricket
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Don't waste your time because I'm not gonna waste my time digging all the quotes and videos. You can keep your opinion and I'll keep mine.
Btw, here's Sanga's view on Lara.
http://www.espncricinfo.com/magazine/content/story/375538.html
Buffet
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I am just googling it again. I did it one time before posting earlier.
Kallis views - http://sports.ndtv.com/cricket/news...incredible-but-brian-lara-best-jacques-kallis
Warne's view - http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/cr...ays-former-Australia-spinner-Shane-Warne.html
McGrath's view - http://www.rediff.com/cricket/2002/sep/04inter3.htm
Ponting's view - http://sports.ndtv.com/cricket/news...t-but-brian-lara-most-dangerous-ricky-ponting
Donald's view - http://www.espncricinfo.com/sachin/content/story/434423.html
Murali's view - http://www.standard.co.uk/sport/int...igures-but-were-not-the-greatest-6361077.html
Wasim's view - http://www.ibnlive.com/cricketnext/news/sachin-is-the-best-batsman-in-history-akram-351514-78.html
Waqar's view - http://www.cricketcountry.com/news/...f-this-era-wasim-akram-and-waqar-younis-21298
Lara's view -- http://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/cricket/sachin-tendulkar-praised-the-greatest-2789055
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You can add for more ATG's. It didn't come up in google and that's why i didn't post it first time. I actually searched and then posted rather than giving my opinion or taking quotes from random websites. I can't find for some and guys like Steyn/Ambrose have never given a definite statement about being the best. I shared that as well.
Kallis views - http://sports.ndtv.com/cricket/news...incredible-but-brian-lara-best-jacques-kallis
Warne's view - http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/cr...ays-former-Australia-spinner-Shane-Warne.html
McGrath's view - http://www.rediff.com/cricket/2002/sep/04inter3.htm
Ponting's view - http://sports.ndtv.com/cricket/news...t-but-brian-lara-most-dangerous-ricky-ponting
Donald's view - http://www.espncricinfo.com/sachin/content/story/434423.html
Murali's view - http://www.standard.co.uk/sport/int...igures-but-were-not-the-greatest-6361077.html
Wasim's view - http://www.ibnlive.com/cricketnext/news/sachin-is-the-best-batsman-in-history-akram-351514-78.html
Waqar's view - http://www.cricketcountry.com/news/...f-this-era-wasim-akram-and-waqar-younis-21298
Lara's view -- http://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/cricket/sachin-tendulkar-praised-the-greatest-2789055
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You can add for more ATG's. It didn't come up in google and that's why i didn't post it first time. I actually searched and then posted rather than giving my opinion or taking quotes from random websites. I can't find for some and guys like Steyn/Ambrose have never given a definite statement about being the best. I shared that as well.
Buffet
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Then it's meaningless to talk about it. I thought we wanted to put facts in front and then see if claims has any merit. I had never counted earlier but I had a general impression based on earlier reports/news. I could have been way off target but it looks like I wasn't that much off target.
Adding Sanga one is good because it didn't come up in google search earlier or I didn't spot it quickly. That's why I had left some empty. I listed only players who said clearly about being the best. Not too many are left so either they have said something clearly or they have refused to say anything about it.
ChachaCricket
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Like I said Wasim's and Waqar's opinions change like when they're in India. Warne is no different.
You have said that you considered Sir Viv to be the greatest batsman you have bowled to. What was it like to face him as a bowler?
Viv was a different breed. It wasn’t just his batting, it was his aura. Over six feet tall; itnay itnay (these huge) muscles; no sign of any protection; forget arm or chest guards, not even a helmet. So that whole aura was intimidating for a young skinny bowler that I was back then.
However, I still got his wickets a few times. That, I should admit, was also because his greatest days were behind him. I am glad I faced him then and not earlier.
http://www.dawn.com/news/1185948
Lara stood out above the rest: Waqar Younis
http://www.wisdenindia.com/interview/lara-stood-out-above-the-rest-waqar-younis/20090
Gillespie on Lara: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5jRjFkTcIRk
You have said that you considered Sir Viv to be the greatest batsman you have bowled to. What was it like to face him as a bowler?
Viv was a different breed. It wasn’t just his batting, it was his aura. Over six feet tall; itnay itnay (these huge) muscles; no sign of any protection; forget arm or chest guards, not even a helmet. So that whole aura was intimidating for a young skinny bowler that I was back then.
However, I still got his wickets a few times. That, I should admit, was also because his greatest days were behind him. I am glad I faced him then and not earlier.
http://www.dawn.com/news/1185948
Lara stood out above the rest: Waqar Younis
http://www.wisdenindia.com/interview/lara-stood-out-above-the-rest-waqar-younis/20090
Gillespie on Lara: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5jRjFkTcIRk
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miandadrules
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For someone who was championing neutrality you made a very SRT centric post
I find it ironic that you've passed through 6 pages and numerous posts boasting of Tendulkar knocks against the two Ws, to make a point to me that they shouldn't enter the debate. When I have stated all along that Tendulkar never faced them at their peak or remotely close to it.
Nice little polemic about Tendulkar and Donald, which was strangely missing the Lara counter. Donald dismissed both Lara and Tendulkar 5 times in 20 innings. So, Donald wasn't doing the damage alone to Lara either. Unfortunately, Tendulkar only managed scores of 30+ on 6 out of 20 innings when Donald played, with Lara doing it on 10 occasions. That's pretty poor no matter how you spin it.
You're now emphasising individual knocks as apposed to consistency. So you just brushed over all those posters who claimed Lara's individual knocks of brilliance were no match to Tendulkar's consistency but felt the need to make that point in Tendulkar's favour?
You claim he was brilliant against Ambrose but he never scored a century against him. Can you make up your mind about the criteria you wish to use?
miandadrules
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I don't want to get on to this debate but if you're going to do this you would have to be very exhaustive because answers can change depending on the audience.
Here Waqar is stating Lara was better than Tendulkar.
http://zeenews.india.com/sports/cri...g-lara-s-wicket-above-tendulkar-s_766368.html
He also said it on Sky Sports. They may have even been a thread on it on PP where many of the Indians and Ethnic Indians were upset about.
miandadrules
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He was so brilliant against Ambrose and co in that series he couldn't even help his team chase 120 in the 4th innings.
miandadrules
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Can you please post the Test match hundred Tendulkar has against Ambrose, because Cricinfo doesn't seem to think he has one.
He has a 92 against Ambrose in the same match where India got bowled for <120.
Yes because 1 innings means so much.
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Aren't Sachin's weaknesses in the 4th innings well known? He was quite mediocre.
miandadrules
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He didn't score 92 out of 120 though did he? When destiny was in his hands he scored 4.
What do you mean one innings means so much? The poster claimed he has a century against Ambrose, am asking him to show me where?
miandadrules
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I rate him really highly but some of the stuff these guys are spouting is ridiculous. Over stating Tendulkar's performances at best, blatantly fabricating at worst, whilst totally diminishing Lara's performances.
Chrish
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If the sky is blue and you will still tell me it's red then there really is no point in this discussion
I should have known better to read previous posts to determine your knowledge/ IQ before bothering
miandadrules
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Very convenient.
Don't you worry about my IQ Mr Neutrality, it's fine as it is.
Only one match in that series came close to a result and India's destiny was in Tendulkar's hands and he scored 4.
Have I said anything factually incorrect?
Chrish
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Your agenda can't be more clear here.. Try to deflect every single post with weak reasoning that isn't to your liking
Scrollin complied a realistic post which was too selective for you.. His record against Ambrose doesn't count due to one match
Your desperation to discredit certain player is quite disturbing tbh
Chrish
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Yet you completely failed to address Laras failure against three bowlers that I mentioned
Instead you targeted a single line just to get this argument going
This reflects the scope of ur imagination and intelligence
miandadrules
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Scrollin's post was reasonable? Talking about facing Waqar, who was a crude 19 year old who was subsequently dropped for a year, forgetting to mention Imran was 38, and Wasim who hadn't peaked. Mentioning a rampaging Asif, whilst forgetting that the first two tests were on featherbeds. Please refer to all the bolded parts. The very fact that you find it reasonable speaks volumes about your character.
Where have I deflected anything?
Did I say his record against Ambrose doesn't count?
It's more of a case of you being uncomfortable with Tendulkar's career being placed under scrutiny. All your talk of neutrality but ultimately we've come down to the real issue and your bias.
My point has nothing to do with Tendulkar, but more to do with the duplicity being shown by his fans in this thread. I'm sorry if that make you uncomfortable.
miandadrules
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Lara did fail against them. I don't need to justify it, I accept players have failings.
I don't call this an argument, don't flatter yourself. Typically, once your posts are scrutinise you have to resort to ad hominem attacks.
Please point out any factual inaccuracies I have presented.
I'm happy for anyone to judge our respective intelligence.
Buffet
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Like I said earlier - Let's list all ATG peers. There are less than 20 so not difficult to list. Let's pick direct quote saying that they rate XYZ as the best. Let's stick to the latest date. I already listed the ones I found doing googling here.
You ignored that and listed Waqar here. If you read it then ,
As a bowler, who did you find most difficult to bowl to? =/= Rating batsman as the best.
That's the reason I won't count Steyn here because he found SRT the most difficult but he never rated him as the best. I provided direct quote from Waqar saying that XYZ is the best. he could have easily changed XYZ in different time period , just like all of us do. Nothing wrong in that. We cna simply pick the last date and use it as thier valid opinion.
It could be that Lara gets more count or SRT gets more count. I am simply curious because I have seen no one doing any count but people keep making claim, one way or another. I have myself made a claim about SRT being rated higher without any objective count. So I am interested.
Buffet
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It's perfectly fine to list any direct quote as long as we stick to the last date. You are right that some time answer may change based on audience but we can't do much about it. We can only take the last statement as the valid one.
It won't be that exhaustive if we are sticking to ATG peers and not start listing every XYZ. Every XYZ is simply impossible to do so I won't even get into that.
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The first few shots in this video vs Donald are why people love Lara. He took on big bowlers. He played aggressive cricket. He's the only person in the 10,000 run club to have a strike rate in the 60s. Viv Richards likewise played aggressive cricket. I find it incredible that Lara averages so highly when he has so few not outs, played so flamboyantly and has so many series where he was given out on bumped balls.
I remember Brett Lee bowling to Lara in 2003. I think Lara only made 24 or 26 in one innings, but he played some shots that had my jaw on the floor. Lee was the fastest he had ever been, but Lara played some brilliantly controlled hook/pull shots off 150kph bouncers. The way Lara controlled his cuts was also special. He could cut you and direct that ball anywhere he wanted, and at speed.
Lara's 153 vs Waquar Younis also sticks out in my mind...
Lara had Younis leaking 8 runs an over.
And check out some of Lara's ODI knocks vs Younis and Akram. In his 114 and 128 in 1992 and 1993, Lara smashed Akram and Younis about. And when the spinners came on (Sohali?), Lara went bezerk on them too.
Buffet
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^ lara was in full flow was joy to watch. He was surely more aggressive and took more chances. That's why when he got going and stayed for long time , it was very good to watch.
Buffet
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* Lara in full flow.. *
Chrish
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The whole point is both players average in 30s against one bowler..one player has failed to make a single big score while the other did that twice.. Now scoring those two tons may not mean everything, but it means something. It means one player failed completely while other proved the ability to play an inning or two if needed.. Discarding those innings as just another random ton would be intellectually dishonest
As far as SRT vs Ambrose argument goes, he still averaged 50+ against him without scoring 100 which shows the consistency level of batsman. Had Lara averaged 50 against Donald/ two Ws or even 40 for that matter, I doubt many people would bring up this perfomence in discussions
Romali_rotti
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No brother not avoiding put the stats up, I expect Lara to avg more than SRT vs Donald in SA..
can someone place the stats up please ? @Buffet can you help with this ? And an overall stats for LARA VS SRT AWAY vs great bowlers in test matches..
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ChachaCricket
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Lara Lara Lara! Lara any day.
Buffet
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Both of them don't have great numbers in SA when Donald played. SRT averaged 37 and Lara averaged 31 in SA when Donald played. SRT has two tons though and Lara had zero.
SRT averaged 57 in SA when Steyn played with 2 tons. Lara didn't have to face Steyn.
In Aus when McGrath played - Lara averaged 37 with 3 tons. SRT averaged 46 with 1 ton.
In Aus when Warne played - Lara averaged 47 with 3 tons. SRT avearged 56 with two tons.
In SL when Murali played - Lara averaged 83 with 3 tons. SRT averaged 46 with 2 tons.
In Pakistan when Wasim played - Lara averaged 22 with zero ton. SRT averaged 35 with zero ton.
In Pakistan when Waqar played - Lara averaged 23 with zero ton. SRT averaged 35 with zero ton.
In WI when Ambrose played - SRT averaged 58 with zero ton. Lara didn't have to play against Ambrose. You can take Kumble from India if you want as counter example but Kumble was not really in the same league as Ambrose. Lara averaged 33 in India when Kumble played with zero ton.
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I am not sure what you guys are trying to do here. Everyone knows that SRT was able to adapt to different conditions better than all batsmen of his era, including Lara. That's what these numbers also indicate even though I am not going to deduce that with these screens. I will simply rely on how they did in different venues.
I am sure that Lara has some better performances at home against these bowlers when compared to his away performances and also with comparison to SRT. Probably that's why you are only asking for away stats here
Romali_rotti
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I am sure that Lara has some better performances at home against these bowlers when compared to his away performances and also with comparison to SRT. Probably that's why you are only asking for away stats here
Oh Lara is amazing at home, he loves his homely conditions, if you look at Sehwag he avgs something like 67 vs SA at home but late 20s in SA ? everyone loves their homely conditions.............. Real challenge is how you adapt away from home, and I must say I expected Lara to have better stats away even better that SRT and is quite surprised...
ChachaCricket
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Lara's average in SA 46.72 > Sachin's 46.44 hahaha Rotti owned.
Romali_rotti
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Errr NO, Lara vs 31 when Donald plays in SA..........
ChachaCricket
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Teenda averages 26 vs Donald at home. That's even worse.
Getting dominated in home conditions.
miandadrules
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So equating an average over 5 matches to an average over 30 matches is intellectually honest? Are you saying Lara failed completely but Tendulkar had a modicum of success?
Who's discard the centuries? Far from it, it shows that even with a big score to skew the average, Lara was more consistent than Tendulkar.
It's nice that you have finally dropped the pretence of neutrality that you were so adamantly harping on about.
Chrish
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One player did fail completely against those bowlers while the other did prove he could play an inning or two if needed. As I said, if Lara was averaging 40 against them even without scoring 100, I don't think anyone would have made fuss about it. If you can't acknowledge that, so be it.
Another point is in test Cricket, runs scored away from home are universally considered more difficult and thus more valuable than scores at home.
One player's away average is superior by a fair margin than the other facing tougher attacks. Buffet's post # 465 summarizes that. Wonder what would be your excuse this time?
Neutrality comes into play when you bring irrelevant factors (record against two Ws in 90s when he wasn't dismissed once) into argument.
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Romali_rotti
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Teenda averages 26 vs Donald at home. That's even worse.
Yeah I agree he performed better on bouncier tracks vs tough bowlers than at home, he is less of home track bully like Lara.................
ChachaCricket
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An average of 36 isn't really much of a performance. But an ATG dominated at home like that, wow unbelievable stuff.
Romali_rotti
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Yeap agreed Lara is a home track bully.....
miandadrules
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So Lara with 6 50s and a slightly higher average failed completely, whereas Tendulkar despite 2 100s and 2 50s at a lower average had a modicum of success?
Why are you bringing up Lara's record against 2Ws when Tendulkar never faced them anywhere near their peak? Who is to say that Tendulkar would have fared any better, especially considering every single match he would have played against them would have probably been conducive to reverse swing?
How do you explain Tendulkar's average of 26 at home Vs Donald? Are we to dismiss it as an aberration?
Why would I have any excuses for anything? I'm not trying to prove that one is better than the other. I am pointing out the flaws and the clear bias that is being used by Sachin fans.
So neutrality comes in to play by stating Lara's record against the 2 Ws, when Tendulkar never faced them in anything near the standard that Lara had to?
Chrish
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Another stat which I have previously missed is matches involving Walsh.. 7 matches where Tendy averages 66.11
SRT vs Walsh and Ambrose - 8 matches @ 62.81
SRT vs Walsh and Ambrose - 8 matches @ 62.81
Romali_rotti
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Wow so Lara avgd at bare minimum 45-50 (dominated) vs Donald @ home ?
Romali_rotti
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lol are there any Lara fans that are not Pakistani here to defend him?? Some Pakistanis going all out to defend Lara, this is WAR and PERSONAL for them 
miandadrules
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lol are there any Lara fans that are not Pakistani here to defend him?? Some Pakistanis going all out to defend Lara, this is WAR and PERSONAL for them
Are there any non ethnic-indians defending Tendulkar?
Chrish
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Facing Donald on bouncy SA wickets is infinitely more difficult than facing him on roads in India.. Evan a person with single brain cell left would realize that..
The same way he performed better against Steyn on bouncy SA wickets than on roads in India (57.75 in Sa vs 53.25 in India).. It shows versatility of a player and proves he was never dependent on wicket conditions like most other batsmen are.. The only other player who has shown the same ability was Steve Waugh.
If he was just averaging 1 run more at home compared to away, I can see ppl here asking for his blood and calling him ftb!
As for why I bring up two Ws in here, well as per the title of this thread, we are discussing these players' record against main bowlers. For Lara there is enough sample size, for SRT there isn't.
But SRT has done well against all ATG bowlers whom Lara never faced (Steyn/ Walsh/ Ambrose).
If it makes you uncomfortable, there is very little I can do about it.
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