British Pakistanis: Discussion Thread

[Romali_rotti]

Only when you are cornered. You jumped on the white Brit bandwagon to post the video of Pakistani grooming gangs which the media has been peddling for over a decade, but where have you been hiding now that the British whites (including their royal family) have been exposed as part of the biggest grooming gang of all? Where are your posts which raise alarm over the western culture at the heart of this sickening exploitation?

With all due respects Cap, this is a thread discussing Britstanis, so no point talking about the Brit Caucasians here..

 

[Romali_rotti]

RIngleaders of one of the biggest gangs, in Huddersfield, were martial sikhs

Well they need to be thrown in jail and never to be released also maybe use their bodies for testing medicines before release to mass public, let's stop animal testing...

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Huh?? I just showed you data for their education and English proficiency levels which is similar or lower than British Pakistani migrants of at least one generation prior (so British Pakistanis have one generation more in UK as an advantage too). It does not matter who Afghans aided or to what extent when all we are comparing is the quality of the input.

Mind you I am not even posing the question of - Why does it matter what education the grandparents had when the 2nd or 3rd gen still lag so far behind today compared to Afghan Americans (forget Pakistani Americans for a moment).

Again - This is an attempt (conscious or subconscious) to pint it as a perceived flaw being in the input since that is an external defect as opposed to the more intrinsic "Process" resulting in lower quality output.

This is the same circuitous deflection+denial type response all of us Pakistani Americans get from British Pakistani relatives when we try to have a conversation. I'm adding yet another disclaimer that this is coming from a sympathetic POV, not an argument etc (regardless of @Cpt. Rishwat calling that a distraction) because that is usually yet another deflection tactic from objective analysis of this data by some other British Pakistanis not wanting to confront the truth.

So what conclusion do you draw from studying all the data you have presented? Any ideas?

 

[RizwanT20Champ]

Huh?? I just showed you data for their education and English proficiency levels which is similar or lower than British Pakistani migrants of at least one generation prior (so British Pakistanis have one generation more in UK as an advantage too). It does not matter who Afghans aided or to what extent when all we are comparing is the quality of the input.

Mind you I am not even posing the question of - Why does it matter what education the grandparents had when the 2nd or 3rd gen still lag so far behind today compared to Afghan Americans (forget Pakistani Americans for a moment).

Again - This is an attempt (conscious or subconscious) to pint it as a perceived flaw being in the input since that is an external defect as opposed to the more intrinsic "Process" resulting in lower quality output.

This is the same circuitous deflection+denial type response all of us Pakistani Americans get from British Pakistani relatives when we try to have a conversation. I'm adding yet another disclaimer that this is coming from a sympathetic POV, not an argument etc (regardless of @Cpt. Rishwat calling that a distraction) because that is usually yet another deflection tactic from objective analysis of this data by some other British Pakistanis not wanting to confront the truth.

Excellent post again. @Cpt. Rishwat for all his brilliance and his attempt to be the quintessential Brit has the tendency to deflect when it comes to the mildest criticism of British Pakistanis. I have family in America and Europe (Britain mainly but also other parts), and the American side of my family is far more liberal, more educated and better off than my family in Britain. Admittedly, America is simply a greater country but from my own experience, American Pakistanis tend to be more hard working, accepting of criticism and just more liberal in general. American Pakistanis are as American as every other American while still having a soft spot for the country of their origins.. British Pakistanis tend to be more confused about their identity and take umbrage at the slightest perceived criticism. As stated earlier, it is very true that American Pakistanis tend to come from more affluent families in general but that does explain the vast discrepancy in virtually every parameter.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Excellent post again. @Cpt. Rishwat for all his brilliance and his attempt to be the quintessential Brit has the tendency to deflect when it comes to the mildest criticism of British Pakistanis. I have family in America and Europe (Britain mainly but also other parts), and the American side of my family is far more liberal, more educated and better off than my family in Britain. Admittedly, America is simply a greater country but from my own experience, American Pakistanis tend to be more hard working, accepting of criticism and just more liberal in general. American Pakistanis are as American as every other American while still having a soft spot for the country of their origins.. British Pakistanis tend to be more confused about their identity and take umbrage at the slightest perceived criticism. As stated earlier, it is very true that American Pakistanis tend to come from more affluent families in general but that does explain the vast discrepancy in virtually every parameter.

I don't believe I deflected at all. I accept that American Pakistanis are generally better educated and more affluent, I also have no problem accepting they are more liberal. British Pakistanis are quite conservative ( far more than me) and that tends to reflect their country of origin as well. Make of that what you will.

The only issue I have is using secular Afghans who even by the poster's own material presented, are generally educated enough to be working as translators or interpreters for the US military and thus get their green card to show their loyalty for the invasion of Afghanistan. These Afghans are not representative of Afghans in general in my opinion, otherwise USA and their allied forces would have won the war in Afghanistan.

Other than that I am interested to hear @rickroll 's theories on why British Pakistanis are less "successful" than Americans.

 

[RizwanT20Champ]

I don't believe I deflected at all. I accept that American Pakistanis are generally better educated and more affluent, I also have no problem accepting they are more liberal. British Pakistanis are quite conservative ( far more than me) and that tends to reflect their country of origin as well. Make of that what you will.

The only issue I have is using secular Afghans who even by the poster's own material presented, are generally educated enough to be working as translators or interpreters for the US military and thus get their green card to show their loyalty for the invasion of Afghanistan. These Afghans are not representative of Afghans in general in my opinion, otherwise USA and their allied forces would have won the war in Afghanistan.

Other than that I am interested to hear @rickroll 's theories on why British Pakistanis are less "successful" than Americans.

I have no love lost for Afghans and I am not going to get drawn into a discussion about them in a topic which discusses British Pakistanis vis-a-vis other Pakistanis. The bolded is the kind of statement that always gets me, so their conservative nature is because of their country of origin, but that doesn't explain why American Pakistanis ( and let's be honest, most Pakistanis inside and outside of Pakistan) are more liberal than British Pakistanis? It's always somebody else's fault. There is no Anjem equivalent in the US, it is high time British Pakistanis introspect and I say that with respect and as someone with ties and family there.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

I have no love lost for Afghans and I am not going to get drawn into a discussion about them in a topic which discusses British Pakistanis vis-a-vis other Pakistanis. The bolded is the kind of statement that always gets me, so their conservative nature is because of their country of origin, but that doesn't explain why American Pakistanis ( and let's be honest, most Pakistanis inside and outside of Pakistan) are more liberal than British Pakistanis? It's always somebody else's fault. There is no Anjem equivalent in the US, it is high time British Pakistanis introspect and I say that with respect and as someone with ties and family there.

If you don't think British Pakistanis reflect their country of origin, which country do you think they reflect? China? Norway? India maybe?

 

[rickroll]

I don't believe I deflected at all. I accept that American Pakistanis are generally better educated and more affluent, I also have no problem accepting they are more liberal. British Pakistanis are quite conservative ( far more than me) and that tends to reflect their country of origin as well. Make of that what you will.

The only issue I have is using secular Afghans who even by the poster's own material presented, are generally educated enough to be working as translators or interpreters for the US military and thus get their green card to show their loyalty for the invasion of Afghanistan. These Afghans are not representative of Afghans in general in my opinion, otherwise USA and their allied forces would have won the war in Afghanistan.

Other than that I am interested to hear @rickroll 's theories on why British Pakistanis are less "successful" than Americans.

This (bolded part of your post) is simply not true and I have already posted proofs in this thread. I'm adding those messages again below for reference. This act of trying to split hairs in an external factor instead of being honest with good introspection of the "process" your community goes through - this is the denial/deflection that many non-British Pakistanis (Pakistani Americans from my pov) face when trying to have a simple non-confrontational conversation. The blame is always on someone else even when presented with data proof. I have not even considered the generational advantage that British Pakistanis have (having been large scale migrants to UK since 1950s) so I did not even pose the question of "who cares what education their grand parents had, many of current British Pakistanis and their parents grew up in UK so why are they languishing too? You have not acknowledged that as well because in your heart you also know that is a valid take forcing y'all to be looking at the "process" of why your community lags despite the advantages.

Some points to reinforce (lest yet another British Pakistani PPer will jump in with deflections)

1. I may lie, you may lie but data never lies. Data backed by references is the truth please understand that.
2. I'm only trying to have a conversation through my family experience and other observed data. I do not have an agenda to hurt your sky high "jazba" and pride.
3. We (Pakistani Americans) do not see you as an adversary when saying this but only have sympathy and pity for why/how you lag so far behind. There is no competition among Pakistani communities and we all want to get better.
4. I don't have any love lost for Afghans (see my signature). Only reason I included Afghans is because some of you (British Pakistanis) claimed Pakistani Americans are richer+educated immigrants than your grand parents' time UK migrants and that is why y'all lag behind in the UK. So I created an apples-apples comparison for a 3rd South Asian+less educated+poor+Islamic community.
5. Yes money is not everything in life which is why I included non-financial HDI metrics too.
6. If your immediate reaction is to pick faults at the messenger or some external entity instead of acknowledging the truth, then you have lost already.

Think about it - despite proof after proof, it is taking so much mental gymnastics for y'all to even acknowledge an open data backed truth. If this is not denial then what is?

Screenshots from that same link ...

53% of men and 60% of women lacked English proficiency, let alone education. Even for the translators/interpreters they just knew enough to barely communicate and nothing more. Bear in mind that the US military also had their own Pashto/Dari speakers so many Afghan interpreters were there as another layer of information check.

View attachment 161628

72% do not have college education and we all know the "quality" of high school education from any rural part of South Asia let alone a historically war torn place like Afghanistan.

View attachment 161629


Afghan refugee immigrants to the US have at best equal education as Pakistani refugee/economic migrants to the UK and in realistic terms the Afghans come from even more challenged backgrounds.

There are 3 steps to this analysis. Input->Process->Output
#1 Input - quality of the people in terms of education.
#2 Process - What the US or UK social/govt/economic system provides/does for the input.
#3 Output - The resulting HDI metrics for the input as a result of that process.

I'm asking about why the output for British Pakistanis is markedly lower in spite of higher input and wondering what defects in the process is causing that. You (and many typical British Pakistani response) is either not acknowledging the output or being in denial of the defects in the process and laying the emphasis that the output is less solely because the input is low. This understandably is an easier copout response because it directs the blame on an external entity and not on your country/community. Mind you we are comparing a 2nd or 3rd gen population data where even a difference in input is highly mitigated or nullified. Even if we assume generational change does not nullify input population quality, I can share however many sources to confirm the less qualifications of US Afghan immigrants relative to British Pakistani migrants. Also consider that the US is a much less forgiving system with barely any social benefits unlike what y'all enjoy.

In essence a lower quality US input (lower than the UK input) is turned into a higher quality US output by a lower benefitted US system. Where and how is the British Pakistani process failing relative to the US such that is producing sub-optimal output? - this is the crux of the issue.

 

[rickroll]

I don't believe I deflected at all. I accept that American Pakistanis are generally better educated and more affluent, I also have no problem accepting they are more liberal. British Pakistanis are quite conservative ( far more than me) and that tends to reflect their country of origin as well. Make of that what you will.

The only issue I have is using secular Afghans who even by the poster's own material presented, are generally educated enough to be working as translators or interpreters for the US military and thus get their green card to show their loyalty for the invasion of Afghanistan. These Afghans are not representative of Afghans in general in my opinion, otherwise USA and their allied forces would have won the war in Afghanistan.

Other than that I am interested to hear @rickroll 's theories on why British Pakistanis are less "successful" than Americans.

I do not want to go into this now or by myself and let me please explain why.

TLDR - First y'all accept there is a problem in your community then we can discuss why that problem occurs. Failing this y'all (British Pakistanis) will deflect on arguing about validity of WHY and using that argument to go back into denial about existence of the problem. I refuse to fall for that argument trap.

This is the simple equation that I see for all communities ...

[INPUT]---->[PROCESS]---->[OUTPUT]

INPUT = Quality of people coming into the community through natural local births and from outside.
PROCESS = The political+financial framework of your country, socio-economic system your community is in, your community's sub culture etc.
OUTPUT = Quality of people in your community judged through HDI metrics.

We all know that PROCESS for the US is less forgiving with less support compared to the UK. So your (UK) PROCESS is inherently better tuned for a community's success than mine (US).

When I question why is the British Pakistani OUTPUT so bad despite your better PROCESS you guys keep emphasizing that your INPUT is so abysmal that even a better PROCESS cannot churn out a good OUTPUT. But I have shown ample proof involving other similar communities where INPUT is lower than yours, PROCESS is difficult but OUTPUT is better. You (British Pakistanis in PP) do not want to acknowledge the proof and are trying to split hairs to claim fault only lies outside despite proof after proof for INPUT.

I have dumbed it down to clarify where this discussion stands now.

At this juncture you are asking me (an outsider to your community) to pick apart your PROCESS and create an inference while y'all have not even acknowledged your own community's PROCESS problem. While I have no problems researching this and creating inferences (knowledge is free for all now) I do not wish to do this now because I have observed it is a typical argumentative trap by British Pakistanis.

First let's see if you and some other British Pakistani PPers here will accept that there is something wrong in the PROCESS, then WE can see what could be wrong in the process. If it is only me trying to say what is wrong with the PROCESS when you have not accepted INPUT is the same or better then it creates room for y'all to jump to arguing about subjective inferences. The usual British Pakistani tactic is to then focus on arguments about PROCESS inferences and using this argument to claim denial of truth about INPUT. I have seen this time and again from British Pakistanis and I do not want to fall for this argument trap.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

I do not want to go into this now or by myself and let me please explain why.

TLDR - First y'all accept there is a problem in your community then we can discuss why that problem occurs. Failing this y'all (British Pakistanis) will deflect on arguing about validity of WHY and using that argument to go back into denial about existence of the problem. I refuse to fall for that argument trap.

This is the simple equation that I see for all communities ...

[INPUT]---->[PROCESS]---->[OUTPUT]

INPUT = Quality of people coming into the community through natural local births and from outside.
PROCESS = The political+financial framework of your country, socio-economic system your community is in, your community's sub culture etc.
OUTPUT = Quality of people in your community judged through HDI metrics.

We all know that PROCESS for the US is less forgiving with less support compared to the UK. So your (UK) PROCESS is inherently better tuned for a community's success than mine (US).

When I question why is the British Pakistani OUTPUT so bad despite your better PROCESS you guys keep emphasizing that your INPUT is so abysmal that even a better PROCESS cannot churn out a good OUTPUT. But I have shown ample proof involving other similar communities where INPUT is lower than yours, PROCESS is difficult but OUTPUT is better. You (British Pakistanis in PP) do not want to acknowledge the proof and are trying to split hairs to claim fault only lies outside despite proof after proof for INPUT.

I have dumbed it down to clarify where this discussion stands now.

At this juncture you are asking me (an outsider to your community) to pick apart your PROCESS and create an inference while y'all have not even acknowledged your own community's PROCESS problem. While I have no problems researching this and creating inferences (knowledge is free for all now) I do not wish to do this now because I have observed it is a typical argumentative trap by British Pakistanis.

First let's see if you and some other British Pakistani PPers here will accept that there is something wrong in the PROCESS, then WE can see what could be wrong in the process. If it is only me trying to say what is wrong with the PROCESS when you have not accepted INPUT is the same or better then it creates room for y'all to jump to arguing about subjective inferences. The usual British Pakistani tactic is to then focus on arguments about PROCESS inferences and using this argument to claim denial of truth about INPUT. I have seen this time and again from British Pakistanis and I do not want to fall for this argument trap.

But you are the one claiming there is a problem. So if I don't see the problem, why would I make YOUR argument for you? For what it's worth, your sympathy or empathy is not needed, we don't know who you are or if you are even an American Pakistani. We are just taking this on faith but you could be anyone.

 

[rickroll]

But you are the one claiming there is a problem. So if I don't see the problem, why would I make YOUR argument for you? For what it's worth, your sympathy or empathy is not needed, we don't know who you are or if you are even an American Pakistani. We are just taking this on faith but you could be anyone.

Likewise and you could be the crown prince of the country of Lesotho for all I know. I don't know who you are.

"For what it's worth, your sympathy or empathy is not needed" -- WE? So you represent ALL British Pakistanis now and speak for them? Also, by your same logic, nobody knows if you are a real British Pakistani as well remember? Who are you to tell me whom I should send my empathy/sympathy to and whom I should not? All I'm noticing is anger driven defensive response here.

So if I don't see the problem, why would I make YOUR argument for you? -- I will want you to accept the problem in the first place (comparison of HDI metrics is ample proof of existence of problem) before anyone can explain WHY the problem happens. Saying stuff like "I don't see the problem" in the face of ample proof is denial/deflection. As I said, all this does is fall into the argument trap over reasons when one side has not even accepted facts yet. Classic denial driven argument trap.

 

[rickroll]

Aren't these glaring HDI metric gaps showing how far behind British Pakistanis are, proof enough of the existence of the problem? Claiming there is no problem just to appease your community's "jazba" and point scoring when slapped in the face with proof of data is deflection+denial driven by insecurity.

 

[rickroll]

But you are the one claiming there is a problem. So if I don't see the problem, why would I make YOUR argument for you? For what it's worth, your sympathy or empathy is not needed, we don't know who you are or if you are even an American Pakistani. We are just taking this on faith but you could be anyone.

This reeks of classic insecurity response -- "this person pointed the flaws of my community so now he must not be of Pakistani origin and must be an Israeli or worse, an Indian" ... classic attacking the messenger when you do not like the message syndrome ... seriously man ... wow!

 

[SpiritOf1903]

Aren't these glaring HDI metric gaps showing how far behind British Pakistanis are, proof enough of the existence of the problem? Claiming there is no problem just to appease your community's "jazba" and point scoring when slapped in the face with proof of data is deflection+denial driven by insecurity.

View attachment 161650

There's undeniable systemic racism in UK ... It's been prevalent since the first wave of migration. Always demonised and then there have been organised riots of the worst kind twice...

British Pakistanis were not tested fairly by the education system particularly where they had large populations. These figures will change in next 10 years. Diversity forms have split Pakistanis in to their individual ethnicities based on heritage; Kashmiri, Pathan et al. That's unusual.

More obviously, UK Pakistanis are from agricultural stock and Americans come from the cities

 

[rickroll]

There's undeniable systemic racism in UK ... It's been prevalent since the first wave of migration. Always demonised and then there have been organised riots of the worst kind twice...

British Pakistanis were not tested fairly by the education system particularly where they had large populations. These figures will change in next 10 years. Diversity forms have split Pakistanis in to their individual ethnicities based on heritage; Kashmiri, Pathan et al. That's unusual.

More obviously, UK Pakistanis are from agricultural stock and Americans come from the cities

Thank you, this is the type of response and discussion I've been hoping for in this thread. While I do not agree about the last part (agricultural stock versus cities) being a reason since similar non-city Afghans in US have better metrics. But your other points seem valid and I did not know about this.

If you have any links about systemic racism Pakistanis faced in the UK please send them over. I can always google those but it helps if you know a good source already. Splitting Pakistanis across Kashmiri, Pathan etc as you say seems a lot like what MAGA republicans do when gerrymandering constitutional districts in the US. Creating unfair advantages for themselves and looks like thats what the British system did to Pakistanis.

I have been under the impression that @Cpt. Rishwat is a reasonable British Pakistani poster by his own claims but I'm now pretty disappointed at veiled insults questioning my background unnecessarily, taking on the mantle to be a rep for all British Pakistanis and dictating to me whom I should or should not send my sympathies to. All of this instead of not focusing on discussion topic especially when I presented all of these facts and research with the hope of creating a good discussion for this thread.

 

[finalfantasy7]

Aren't these glaring HDI metric gaps showing how far behind British Pakistanis are, proof enough of the existence of the problem? Claiming there is no problem just to appease your community's "jazba" and point scoring when slapped in the face with proof of data is deflection+denial driven by insecurity.

View attachment 161650

wht you may not know rick is that for many migrants communities who left for america in previous decades - such as 1960's - 1990's were miiddle class, thats the opposite for the UK - in that time period UK took most working class migrantes.

Now since 2001 in america - we are seeing working class arrive and now you can tell - hence all the bad press.

Here in the uk to earn $108k a year, which is £79,000 = is what the prime minister earns for doing thr job - not many professions in the UK will give you that salary - i even mean at the very highest profession.

Most of those jobs you can only get in Central London and maybe Birmingham.

Heres what google gave me:
The average annual salary for full-time workers in London is approximately £44,000 to £49,692, with many sources indicating a median closer to the higher end in 2025. Central London often commands higher pay, but, due to high living costs, a salary of £50,000–£60,000 is generally required for a comfortable, independent lifestyle in the city.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

This reeks of classic insecurity response -- "this person pointed the flaws of my community so now he must not be of Pakistani origin and must be an Israeli or worse, an Indian" ... classic attacking the messenger when you do not like the message syndrome ... seriously man ... wow!

But I'm not attacking the messenger. I have read some of your posts previously and never really sure if you were Pakistani or Indian. Even then I am giving you the benefit of the doubt and taking your word for it. All I did was point out that we don't know who you are...which is a fact. Your signature makes me think you are a freshy truth be told, albeit seemingly a well educated one.

 

[rickroll]

But I'm not attacking the messenger. I have read some of your posts previously and never really sure if you were Pakistani or Indian. Even then I am giving you the benefit of the doubt and taking your word for it. All I did was point out that we don't know who you are...which is a fact. Your signature makes me think you are a freshy truth be told, albeit seemingly a well educated one.

#1 - If you have truly looked at my prior posts as you claim to have with so many of them bashing Indians then you would not be wondering that.
#2 - I could be anyone or an alien from Mars but my background was not the discussion point anywhere in this thread. What made you raise a point about my background when it is irrelevant to the thread discussion? The only reason is attacking the messenger the moment you did not like the message and had no way of countering it. So yes, you are attacking the messenger when you lack substance for the discussion and when I called out the bad behavior you are beating around the bush. Did you ever see me talking anything personal about you or your background in this thread until you triggered it? Nope.
#3 - Who cares if I am "freshy" or whatever. So what if I have not been sitting around this forum since 2010 as you have? Does your longer forum existence suddenly imply more veracity? They are not correlated and facts are backed by verified data (thanks to democratization of information).

This very reaction and pushing the discussion to "you said, I said" type argument from the core talking point is yet another tactic by some of the posters when they cannot carry on a meaningful discourse. You could not distract/deflect through my inference of the data (since I refused to fall for the trap) and now you chose to deflect by suddenly talking about my background because you have nothing else to offer.

This seems very similar to my extended British Pakistani family behavior I see. The ego is so fragile that denying facts, deflecting, distracting by attacking the messenger is the only outlet as opposed to accepting the truth. You have done exactly the same by saying you don't see a problem in British Pakistani community relative to Pakistani Americans when I have shown all of the data with reference sources. If this below is not problem then what is?



You think I claim Pakistani Americans are perfect? Absolutely not. Will I (or any Pakistani American) accept flaws/gaps inherent in our community when presented with facts? Absolutely yes. This behavior here is a critical difference between Pakistani Americans and British Pakistanis.

 

[rickroll]

wht you may not know rick is that for many migrants communities who left for america in previous decades - such as 1960's - 1990's were miiddle class, thats the opposite for the UK - in that time period UK took most working class migrantes.

Now since 2001 in america - we are seeing working class arrive and now you can tell - hence all the bad press.

Here in the uk to earn $108k a year, which is £79,000 = is what the prime minister earns for doing thr job - not many professions in the UK will give you that salary - i even mean at the very highest profession.

Most of those jobs you can only get in Central London and maybe Birmingham.

Heres what google gave me:
The average annual salary for full-time workers in London is approximately £44,000 to £49,692, with many sources indicating a median closer to the higher end in 2025. Central London often commands higher pay, but, due to high living costs, a salary of £50,000–£60,000 is generally required for a comfortable, independent lifestyle in the city.

Thank you for adding this data. Pretty interesting that around $108K is what the PM earns. In a way I like this since it seems like an equitable economic structure with not too much variance among economic strata. Sort of reminding me of Scandinavian countries (albeit not as socialistic). There is a reason Scandinavian countries consistently rank among the highest so UK seems to have a good model in that direction compared to the US. I also did not consider the value of each community's income relative to the local CPI (Consumer Price Index) which means maybe the British Pakistani income though lower in absolute value could have more mileage when you also combine better social benefits in the UK.

So my original point still stands and if anything the reason for British Pakistanis lagging in other HDI metrics becomes even more glaring when income difference is not as huge. Mind you income is only one of the items that I called out and there are other social and health indicators too. The question looms even larger as to why British Pakistanis lag in all of those other metrics despite a not so bad income and a good social benefit system.

 

[sweep_shot]

But I'm not attacking the messenger. I have read some of your posts previously and never really sure if you were Pakistani or Indian. Even then I am giving you the benefit of the doubt and taking your word for it. All I did was point out that we don't know who you are...which is a fact. Your signature makes me think you are a freshy truth be told, albeit seemingly a well educated one.

I also thought the same.

Even @finalfantasy7 felt similarly.

 

[finalfantasy7]

Thank you for adding this data. Pretty interesting that around $108K is what the PM earns. In a way I like this since it seems like an equitable economic structure with not too much variance among economic strata. Sort of reminding me of Scandinavian countries (albeit not as socialistic). There is a reason Scandinavian countries consistently rank among the highest so UK seems to have a good model in that direction compared to the US. I also did not consider the value of each community's income relative to the local CPI (Consumer Price Index) which means maybe the British Pakistani income though lower in absolute value could have more mileage when you also combine better social benefits in the UK.

So my original point still stands and if anything the reason for British Pakistanis lagging in other HDI metrics becomes even more glaring when income difference is not as huge. Mind you income is only one of the items that I called out and there are other social and health indicators too. The question looms even larger as to why British Pakistanis lag in all of those other metrics despite a not so bad income and a good social benefit system.

tbh honest in the UK, if you have a good paying job in the UK via the degree / masters / phd route so around £50,000 are only located in London.

Other than the obvious high paid jobs in hospitals - most cities will have them but only a few jobs per hospital.


also just use google and share data on here, difference in between job salaries (from both countries), Honestly UK doesnt pay good in 95% sectors

Heres a list of rich cities in UK - London / Manchester / Birmingham / Edinburgh / Oxford / Cambridge / Windsor & Ascot / Surrey/Berkshire.


Share your data on here, be good to see the difference

 

[ghalib kichlu]

Thank you for adding this data. Pretty interesting that around $108K is what the PM earns. In a way I like this since it seems like an equitable economic structure with not too much variance among economic strata. Sort of reminding me of Scandinavian countries (albeit not as socialistic). There is a reason Scandinavian countries consistently rank among the highest so UK seems to have a good model in that direction compared to the US. I also did not consider the value of each community's income relative to the local CPI (Consumer Price Index) which means maybe the British Pakistani income though lower in absolute value could have more mileage when you also combine better social benefits in the UK.

So my original point still stands and if anything the reason for British Pakistanis lagging in other HDI metrics becomes even more glaring when income difference is not as huge. Mind you income is only one of the items that I called out and there are other social and health indicators too. The question looms even larger as to why British Pakistanis lag in all of those other metrics despite a not so bad income and a good social benefit system.

The visa criteria is evidently different
What do you think of the hb1 visa increase and tariff hikes for Indians?

 

[rickroll]

The visa criteria is evidently different
What do you think of the hb1 visa increase and tariff hikes for Indians?

From an American pov I whole heartedly support this. Indian companies have been notorious for rampant H1B frauds.

 

[rickroll]

I also thought the same.

Even @finalfantasy7 felt similarly.

My background has nothing to do with the topic of this thread. Denying evidence backed problem of British Pakistani community and unnecessarily talking about my background which has no relevance to this thread while avoiding most valid discussion questions and counter-points I raised is not attacking the messenger? What is the need to talk about my background and avoiding all other relevant points for?

Of course, a user like you does know all this but you want to kow-tow and support one side because you are agenda driven and not fact/data driven.

 

[rickroll]

But I'm not attacking the messenger. I have read some of your posts previously and never really sure if you were Pakistani or Indian. Even then I am giving you the benefit of the doubt and taking your word for it. All I did was point out that we don't know who you are...which is a fact. Your signature makes me think you are a freshy truth be told, albeit seemingly a well educated one.

The only relevant FACT here is that my background or whatever you think my background is, has no bearing on the topic at hand. So instead of talking about the points at hand (which you seem incapable of), you chose to delve into background and details about the messenger because the message clearly seems above your head.

 

[rickroll]

My first post in this thread (#34) below, and the lagging HDI metrics of British Pakistanis I have pasted again below. Looking at the nature of discourse from people like @Cpt. Rishwat sadly reinforces my original points about many British Pakistanis and Pakistani Americans always observe - Inability to stick to facts, fragile ego, need to live in denial to feed fragile ego, or when forced to respond then find a way to turn the whole thing into an argument to escape from responding. Pretty sad.

1. Why are prison incarcerations so high even among 2nd gen British Pakistanis when they have entirely grown up in high social benefit UK?
2. Why are more of your children dying at birth?
3. Why is your unemployment rate so high when even a job at McDonald's can lower this?
4. Why is your education rate so low?
5. Why are British Pakistani women so much lower in employment (and empowerment) compared to similar South Asian Muslim communities?
6. Why are your thinking so regressive that many of you here are fans of a pedophile rapist like Andrew Tate?

The above are all hard questions y'all have to look into. But I am doubting that will happen. Many British Pakistani reactions here seem to fester into "leT's fINd a wAY tO dEnY tHiS & sAvE oUR JAZBA aT aNy cOSt".

To the few who did respond with valid answers here - thank you!


British Pakistani Positives

1. Truly well established community with rich history.
2. Strong political representation relative to other global Pakistani communities.
3. Maintaining the unique culture (this is a positive to a certain degree).
4. Hard working.

British Pakistani Negatives

1. Lack of education.
2. Higher percentage of radicalization.
3. More regressive thinking when it comes to women's education/career.
4. Not a big enough upward economic mobility towards higher end careers (lack of education playing a factor here).
5. Pointless lower class hype talk of "jazba this, jazba that".
6. Justifying "success" as some corner shop business owner without education saying British Pakistanis are true "entrepreneurs" (no, they are just uneducated and cannot have upward mobility of higher end entrepreneurship, this is the truth).
7. General cringe lower class behavior and not as refined as Pakistani Americans.
8. Taking pride in mundane things like winning the genetic lottery of being born in the UK probably because they have nothing else big to show for (TBH this is something I see a lot here in PP forums - "I'm Brit this, Brit that" and it is such low class uneducated MAGA type cringe for many of us US born Pakistani Americans). This is big guys, it really shows you in a pathetic light.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

My first post in this thread (#34) below, and the lagging HDI metrics of British Pakistanis I have pasted again below. Looking at the nature of discourse from people like @Cpt. Rishwat sadly reinforces my original points about many British Pakistanis and Pakistani Americans always observe - Inability to stick to facts, fragile ego, need to live in denial to feed fragile ego, or when forced to respond then find a way to turn the whole thing into an argument to escape from responding. Pretty sad.

1. Why are prison incarcerations so high even among 2nd gen British Pakistanis when they have entirely grown up in high social benefit UK?
2. Why are more of your children dying at birth?
3. Why is your unemployment rate so high when even a job at McDonald's can lower this?
4. Why is your education rate so low?
5. Why are British Pakistani women so much lower in employment (and empowerment) compared to similar South Asian Muslim communities?
6. Why are your thinking so regressive that many of you here are fans of a pedophile rapist like Andrew Tate?

The above are all hard questions y'all have to look into. But I am doubting that will happen. Many British Pakistani reactions here seem to fester into "leT's fINd a wAY tO dEnY tHiS & sAvE oUR JAZBA aT aNy cOSt".

To the few who did respond with valid answers here - thank you!


British Pakistani Positives

1. Truly well established community with rich history.
2. Strong political representation relative to other global Pakistani communities.
3. Maintaining the unique culture (this is a positive to a certain degree).
4. Hard working.

British Pakistani Negatives

1. Lack of education.
2. Higher percentage of radicalization.
3. More regressive thinking when it comes to women's education/career.
4. Not a big enough upward economic mobility towards higher end careers (lack of education playing a factor here).
5. Pointless lower class hype talk of "jazba this, jazba that".
6. Justifying "success" as some corner shop business owner without education saying British Pakistanis are true "entrepreneurs" (no, they are just uneducated and cannot have upward mobility of higher end entrepreneurship, this is the truth).
7. General cringe lower class behavior and not as refined as Pakistani Americans.
8. Taking pride in mundane things like winning the genetic lottery of being born in the UK probably because they have nothing else big to show for (TBH this is something I see a lot here in PP forums - "I'm Brit this, Brit that" and it is such low class uneducated MAGA type cringe for many of us US born Pakistani Americans). This is big guys, it really shows you in a pathetic light.

View attachment 161657

The bolded part is exactly why you aren't presenting the facts and looking for discourse. You present them along with generalised prejudicial remarks about British Pakistanis. If you talk like this do you expect us to nod our heads humbly and say "yes saaar!"?

By the way your user name is a meme for someone who is trolling in the UK, I don't know if as a freshy you know that. But that is one of the reasons I was not sure if you were Pakistani, but still I am prepared to take you at your word.

Finally, I keep seeing you presenting this date - which I have no issue with - but then you don't want to present any conclusions yourself while asking for our input. When we say we are ok with it, then that doesn't seem to satisfy you, which is where I would expect you to give some of your own insights.

 

[rickroll]

The bolded part is exactly why you aren't presenting the facts and looking for discourse. You present them along with generalised prejudicial remarks about British Pakistanis. If you talk like this do you expect us to nod our heads humbly and say "yes saaar!"?

By the way your user name is a meme for someone who is trolling in the UK, I don't know if as a freshy you know that. But that is one of the reasons I was not sure if you were Pakistani, but still I am prepared to take you at your word.

Finally, I keep seeing you presenting this date - which I have no issue with - but then you don't want to present any conclusions yourself while asking for our input. When we say we are ok with it, then that doesn't seem to satisfy you, which is where I would expect you to give some of your own insights.

The bolded part is exactly why you aren't presenting the facts and looking for discourse. You present them along with generalised prejudicial remarks about British Pakistanis. If you talk like this do you expect us to nod our heads humbly and say "yes saaar!"? -- I do not expect you or anyone to do that but I also do not want repeated denial in the face of compelling proof or unsolicited personal attacks. I try to be respectful towards individuals but if you mistake my niceness for weakness and cross my line with personal attacks then all bets are off with me. Just because you are existing here since 2010 I am supposed to bow down and say "yes saaar!" to you when you make personal attacks instead? I think not. Who are you to tell me whom I should send my sympathy and pity to? Who appointed you the sole representation of British Pakistanis? I have extended British Pakistani family and I very much want to send my pity and sympathy especially to fellow Muslims so who died and anointed you as king to deny me that? Care to man up and answer?

By the way your user name is a meme for someone who is trolling in the UK, I don't know if as a freshy you know that. But that is one of the reasons I was not sure if you were Pakistani, but still I am prepared to take you at your word. -- A username is just that. #1 I don't know or care who this person trolls and we just pick a username at spur of the moment. #2 your user name means bribe, does that mean we should all assume you are a crooked malicious lying person? Please stop trying to justify your unsolicited personal attacks with lame reasonings.

Finally, I keep seeing you presenting this date - which I have no issue with -- You have never said that you have no issue with the data. In the face of all this data proof you said you "don't see a problem" and I have quoted it below. Now that I have called you out that you are backtracking that you have no issue with it.

I do not care about arguments and maybe just man up and talk about the discussion topic instead? First give me a clear answer before we go to conclusion - In the face of all the HDI metrics data, do you agree that British Pakistanis are lagging behind Pakistani Americans and Afghan Americans and do you agree that there is a problem in the community as a result? Yes/No? This simple response is what matters before going into an inference discussion and everything else (including arguments you try to manufacture to deviate from topic) are distractions.

But you are the one claiming there is a problem. So if I don't see the problem, why would I make YOUR argument for you? For what it's worth, your sympathy or empathy is not needed, we don't know who you are or if you are even an American Pakistani. We are just taking this on faith but you could be anyone.

 

[sweep_shot]

The bolded part is exactly why you aren't presenting the facts and looking for discourse. You present them along with generalised prejudicial remarks about British Pakistanis. If you talk like this do you expect us to nod our heads humbly and say "yes saaar!"?

By the way your user name is a meme for someone who is trolling in the UK, I don't know if as a freshy you know that. But that is one of the reasons I was not sure if you were Pakistani, but still I am prepared to take you at your word.

Finally, I keep seeing you presenting this date - which I have no issue with - but then you don't want to present any conclusions yourself while asking for our input. When we say we are ok with it, then that doesn't seem to satisfy you, which is where I would expect you to give some of your own insights.

I honestly don't know what he is trying to prove. LOL. It seems like he wants to argue for the sake of it. Every country has different challenges and positives. Comparing US to UK is like comparing apple to orange.

Comparison only makes sense when two countries have similar cost of living, population, landmass, resources, currency strength etc.

He is all over the place. Seems to write things based on personal bias and poorly researched information from online.

 

[rickroll]

I honestly don't know what he is trying to prove. LOL. It seems like he wants to argue for the sake of it. Every country has different challenges and positives. Comparing US to UK is like comparing apple to orange.

Comparison only makes sense when two countries have similar cost of living, population, landmass, resources, currency strength etc.

He is all over the place. Seems to write things based on personal bias and poorly researched information from online.

What a stupid post that too from someone outside the Pakistani community! Where are we comparing countries? This is about comparing different Pakistani communities within different OECD countries, who said anything about comparing countries?

And you disappeared when I called you out for praising someone doing personal attacks.

 

[The Bald Eagle]

@Rajdeep I know this thread is off limits to you but enjoy

===

 

[DeadlyVenom]

@rickroll - skimmed through your posts. You make a lot of very valid points. We don't perform well on many metrics but at the same time when we have soared, we have soared higher than any other Pakistani diaspora community, in politics, sports, media and entertainment.

It is a real shame that the layabouts in the community are so bad that they drag the rest of us down when it comes to metrics but you will still find hugely successful, forward thinking, talented and intelligent British Pakistanis in almost every sector and industry in the UK.

Comparisons with Americans are different. The two communities have different back stories in Pakistan and America itself is the land of immigrants. For a long time as long as you weren't black, you wouldn't have many problems. Almost everyone in America is a recent arrival ( relative to Britains people at least) so communities can exist while retaining their immigrant quirks and it's less of a big deal. In Britain, we were often hit by racism, and being one of the most visible minorities meant we were hit the hardest, it did result in a ghettoisation in some areas. In America because most people were immigrants of some sort, it was less harsh and communities didn't become as insular.

Overall the key difference between American and British Pakistanis is that the Americans have became Americans of Pakistani origin ( where the American side is dominant) and we still have our feet in both camps. And we in the UK are still so bloody visible too, in contrasts to Indian community where Ramgopal and Inderjit, became Robbie and Bobby by second generation and by 4th generation became Steven and Vicky with only connection to India/Hinduism throwing some colour once a year and wearing a belly top when celebrating culture in office culture days.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

The bolded part is exactly why you aren't presenting the facts and looking for discourse. You present them along with generalised prejudicial remarks about British Pakistanis. If you talk like this do you expect us to nod our heads humbly and say "yes saaar!"? -- I do not expect you or anyone to do that but I also do not want repeated denial in the face of compelling proof or unsolicited personal attacks. I try to be respectful towards individuals but if you mistake my niceness for weakness and cross my line with personal attacks then all bets are off with me. Just because you are existing here since 2010 I am supposed to bow down and say "yes saaar!" to you when you make personal attacks instead? I think not. Who are you to tell me whom I should send my sympathy and pity to? Who appointed you the sole representation of British Pakistanis? I have extended British Pakistani family and I very much want to send my pity and sympathy especially to fellow Muslims so who died and anointed you as king to deny me that? Care to man up and answer?

By the way your user name is a meme for someone who is trolling in the UK, I don't know if as a freshy you know that. But that is one of the reasons I was not sure if you were Pakistani, but still I am prepared to take you at your word. -- A username is just that. #1 I don't know or care who this person trolls and we just pick a username at spur of the moment. #2 your user name means bribe, does that mean we should all assume you are a crooked malicious lying person? Please stop trying to justify your unsolicited personal attacks with lame reasonings.

Finally, I keep seeing you presenting this date - which I have no issue with -- You have never said that you have no issue with the data. In the face of all this data proof you said you "don't see a problem" and I have quoted it below. Now that I have called you out that you are backtracking that you have no issue with it.

I do not care about arguments and maybe just man up and talk about the discussion topic instead? First give me a clear answer before we go to conclusion - In the face of all the HDI metrics data, do you agree that British Pakistanis are lagging behind Pakistani Americans and Afghan Americans and do you agree that there is a problem in the community as a result? Yes/No? This simple response is what matters before going into an inference discussion and everything else (including arguments you try to manufacture to deviate from topic) are distractions.

View attachment 161688

You have the same posting style as a former Indian poster who claimed he was a Christian, using the eye-watering bold fonts in daft colours. I think he posts under a different ID now but no matter.

No one is insulting you either. Just querying your user name rickroll which actually translates as spoof over here, is not an insult. Certainly nowhere near as offensive as your signature which insults Bangladeshis and Afghans by using a demeaning generalisation. You would not get away with that in any decent UK forum.

On your stats, what is you actually want from British posters beyond what has already been offered to you by way of explanation? An apology? A salute maybe? If you can give some direction I will attempt to engage further.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

@rickroll - skimmed through your posts. You make a lot of very valid points. We don't perform well on many metrics but at the same time when we have soared, we have soared higher than any other Pakistani diaspora community, in politics, sports, media and entertainment.

It is a real shame that the layabouts in the community are so bad that they drag the rest of us down when it comes to metrics but you will still find hugely successful, forward thinking, talented and intelligent British Pakistanis in almost every sector and industry in the UK.

Comparisons with Americans are different. The two communities have different back stories in Pakistan and America itself is the land of immigrants. For a long time as long as you weren't black, you wouldn't have many problems. Almost everyone in America is a recent arrival ( relative to Britains people at least) so communities can exist while retaining their immigrant quirks and it's less of a big deal. In Britain, we were often hit by racism, and being one of the most visible minorities meant we were hit the hardest, it did result in a ghettoisation in some areas. In America because most people were immigrants of some sort, it was less harsh and communities didn't become as insular.

Overall the key difference between American and British Pakistanis is that the Americans have became Americans of Pakistani origin ( where the American side is dominant) and we still have our feet in both camps. And we in the UK are still so bloody visible too, in contrasts to Indian community where Ramgopal and Inderjit, became Robbie and Bobby by second generation and by 4th generation became Steven and Vicky with only connection to India/Hinduism throwing some colour once a year and wearing a belly top when celebrating culture in office culture days.

I have made this point previously as well, maybe even in this thread. If you have ever lived in a white council estate, then you would understand how rough it can be. Single mothers pushing prams at 15 or 16, drugs are rampant, drugs and violence are visible on the streets. I think many Pakistanis grow up in this environment and reflect it, thus the gangsta wannabe attitudes.

Just look at black communities as well. You would find far more civilised blacks in African countries who have much better values. When people talk disparagingly of British Pakistanis, I wonder which part of them they really hate? Is it the Pakistani part....or the British?

 

[ghalib kichlu]

I have made this point previously as well, maybe even in this thread. If you have ever lived in a white council estate, then you would understand how rough it can be. Single mothers pushing prams at 15 or 16, drugs are rampant, drugs and violence are visible on the streets. I think many Pakistanis grow up in this environment and reflect it, thus the gangsta wannabe attitudes.

Just look at black communities as well. You would find far more civilised blacks in African countries who have much better values. When people talk disparagingly of British Pakistanis, I wonder which part of them they really hate? Is it the Pakistani part....or the British?

Absolutely

The first generation Asians came impoverished villages and could speak no England and were either fishmongers or factory workers who had no visa restrictions and came as commonwealth workers to replace the fallen soldiers of the world wars and to help with the Industrial Revolution
They worked day and night in factories and then in taxis when they learnt some English and built corner shops and market stalls and some are now very accomplished businesmen
Unfortunately their kids had to grow up in racism areas and council estates and set up gangs where they fought against racism
Compared to recent visa restrictions in uk where only really doctors and care workers have come over from Pakistan,Syria,Iraq and south India and have a much better grasp of english and are bringing money into the uk rather than coming on a boat as a member of the commonwealth

 

[Varun]

You have the same posting style as a former Indian poster who claimed he was a Christian, using the eye-watering bold fonts in daft colours. I think he posts under a different ID now but no matter.

No one is insulting you either. Just querying your user name rickroll which actually translates as spoof over here, is not an insult. Certainly nowhere near as offensive as your signature which insults Bangladeshis and Afghans by using a demeaning generalisation. You would not get away with that in any decent UK forum.

Haha, talk about flailing about trying to shoot the messenger.

 

[rickroll]

@rickroll - skimmed through your posts. You make a lot of very valid points. We don't perform well on many metrics but at the same time when we have soared, we have soared higher than any other Pakistani diaspora community, in politics, sports, media and entertainment.

It is a real shame that the layabouts in the community are so bad that they drag the rest of us down when it comes to metrics but you will still find hugely successful, forward thinking, talented and intelligent British Pakistanis in almost every sector and industry in the UK.

Comparisons with Americans are different. The two communities have different back stories in Pakistan and America itself is the land of immigrants. For a long time as long as you weren't black, you wouldn't have many problems. Almost everyone in America is a recent arrival ( relative to Britains people at least) so communities can exist while retaining their immigrant quirks and it's less of a big deal. In Britain, we were often hit by racism, and being one of the most visible minorities meant we were hit the hardest, it did result in a ghettoisation in some areas. In America because most people were immigrants of some sort, it was less harsh and communities didn't become as insular.

Overall the key difference between American and British Pakistanis is that the Americans have became Americans of Pakistani origin ( where the American side is dominant) and we still have our feet in both camps. And we in the UK are still so bloody visible too, in contrasts to Indian community where Ramgopal and Inderjit, became Robbie and Bobby by second generation and by 4th generation became Steven and Vicky with only connection to India/Hinduism throwing some colour once a year and wearing a belly top when celebrating culture in office culture days.

This is a good point and I have also observed this. It is one of the symptoms reasons for which we can go into inferences. You have hinted on one of the reasons touching on the difference between US and UK, where US is a country of immigrants while UK is not, thus making it harder for immigrant communities.

Looking at the inference of why all of this is happening is the more interesting part of the conversation but we cannot even get there when active posters in this thread do not want to accept hard data about this.

Thank you also for acknowledging that the community does have a problem. In spite of presenting evidence after evidence, it is sad to see posters holding on to fake ego and not even acknowledging it. Maybe the pride of winning a genetic lottery and "being a Brit" is all they have, so in your face stats like this rock their self worth.

 

[rickroll]

You have the same posting style as a former Indian poster who claimed he was a Christian, using the eye-watering bold fonts in daft colours. I think he posts under a different ID now but no matter.

No one is insulting you either. Just querying your user name rickroll which actually translates as spoof over here, is not an insult. Certainly nowhere near as offensive as your signature which insults Bangladeshis and Afghans by using a demeaning generalisation. You would not get away with that in any decent UK forum.

On your stats, what is you actually want from British posters beyond what has already been offered to you by way of explanation? An apology? A salute maybe? If you can give some direction I will attempt to engage further.

Posts with different colors is a common US finance industry style of writing. If you are post MBA and have worked in hedge fund, venture capital, or private equity in the US you get influenced by this style.

Asking the same question again - WHAT DOES MY BACKGROUND DO WITH THE DISCUSSION OF THIS THREAD? Why even bring up my background if not for a personal insult? Why not stick to the topic unless you lack the intellectual ability to do so?

I do feel Pakistanis are backstabbed by Afghans and Bangladeshis so it is a political statement and not a personal attack on an individual, unlike what you do.

"No one is insulting you either" -- Yes you did insult by questioning my background when there is no context to do that. You did insult by assuming the role of "king of British Pakistanis" and saying I should not send my sympathy/pity etc. I do consider irrelevant unsolicited comments of this nature as insult.

On your stats, what is you actually want from British posters -- Finally getting to point instead of senseless arguments! Great! Since you claim to be a British Pakistani, perhaps first accept that the problem exists instead of only hiding behind manufactured arguments behind irrelevant comments? You conveniently skirted my question. Here is what I need from YOU so that I can oblige to YOUR request and look at the inference for why this is happening (the more intellectually interesting part of the conversation) .... acknowledge the data and acknowledge that there is a problem in British Pakistani communities relevant to others. On record in this thread you said you do not see a problem despite in your face hard data so here it goes again ...

In the face of all the HDI metrics data, do you agree that British Pakistanis are lagging behind Pakistani Americans and Afghan Americans and do you agree that there is a problem in the community as a result? Yes/No? This simple response is what matters before going into an inference discussion and everything else (including arguments you try to manufacture to deviate from topic) are distractions.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

This is a good point and I have also observed this. It is one of the symptoms reasons for which we can go into inferences. You have hinted on one of the reasons touching on the difference between US and UK, where US is a country of immigrants while UK is not, thus making it harder for immigrant communities.

Looking at the inference of why all of this is happening is the more interesting part of the conversation but we cannot even get there when active posters in this thread do not want to accept hard data about this.

Thank you also for acknowledging that the community does have a problem. In spite of presenting evidence after evidence, it is sad to see posters holding on to fake ego and not even acknowledging it. Maybe the pride of winning a genetic lottery and "being a Brit" is all they have, so in your face stats like this rock their self worth.

Even when acknowledging some good points - all made by British Pakistani posters (you still haven't given any insights whatsoever) - this whole post is again just a long rant about posters rather than actually discussing whatever it is you presumably want to discuss.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

In the face of all the HDI metrics data, do you agree that British Pakistanis are lagging behind Pakistani Americans and Afghan Americans and do you agree that there is a problem in the community as a result? Yes/No? This simple response is what matters before going into an inference discussion and everything else (including arguments you try to manufacture to deviate from topic) are distractions.

No I do not agree.

 

[rickroll]

Even when acknowledging some good points - all made by British Pakistani posters (you still haven't given any insights whatsoever) - this whole post is again just a long rant about posters rather than actually discussing whatever it is you presumably want to discuss.

Asking the question again for YOU since you are the OP. You started a thread soliciting opinions, got opinions backed by data, did not like what you saw since it hurts your fragile ego, then resorted to deflection/distraction by manufacturing arguments instead of sticking to the core discussion. My background, my username, colors I use ... you also want to comment about how I sneeze/cough to pile on irrelevant distractions instead of sticking to the topic that YOU created?

I need this simple acknowledgment from you as the OP before going into inferences. In simpler terms for you to understand - Oblige my request first and acknowledge that British Pakistani community has a problem before asking me to oblige your request. Why should I oblige you when you show no courtesy towards me?? Third (or 4th) time I'm posing this simple question. Will you have the guts to answer a simple Yes/No this time around or will you be ranting about something irrelevant again?

In the face of all the HDI metrics data, do you agree that British Pakistanis are lagging behind Pakistani Americans and Afghan Americans and do you agree that there is a problem in the community as a result? Yes/No? This simple response is what matters before going into an inference discussion and everything else (including arguments you try to manufacture to deviate from topic) are distractions.

 

[rickroll]

No I do not agree.

Then there is no point asking me to go into conclusion if you want to stick your head in the sand.

Why do you not agree despite data with proof? How is this not proof that British Pakistani community does lag behind Pakistani Americans or even Afghan Americans?

Forget all personal attacks and let's just stick to this topic. Why do you not agree despite the data below? Please explain?

 

[SpiritOf1903]

@Rajdeep I know this thread is off limits to you but enjoy

===
View attachment 161692

Pakistani, two Bengalis and an Indian ?.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Then there is no point asking me to go into conclusion if you want to stick your head in the sand.

Why do you not agree despite data with proof? How is this not proof that British Pakistani community does lag behind Pakistani Americans or even Afghan Americans?

Forget all personal attacks and let's just stick to this topic. Why do you not agree despite the data below? Please explain?

View attachment 161747

I created the thread to discuss issues, you aren't really discussing. All you are doing is repeatedly posting the same tables without any discussion other than rambling rants against individual posters and racist vibes against Bangladeshis and Afghans.

And why do you need me to accept or reject your tables? There are plenty of other posters here who have responded to your stats, you can engage with them. Or are you singularly stung by my posts that you have been thrown off track completely?

 

[rickroll]

I created the thread to discuss issues, you aren't really discussing. All you are doing is repeatedly posting the same tables without any discussion other than rambling rants against individual posters and racist vibes against Bangladeshis and Afghans.

And why do you need me to accept or reject your tables? There are plenty of other posters here who have responded to your stats, you can engage with them. Or are you singularly stung by my posts that you have been thrown off track completely?

#1 Because you are the OP
#2 You are the one who asked me to go into conclusion, not others
#3 You are self projecting that I'm being thrown off track. Scroll up and see, I have stuck to the topic, I did not resort to personal attacks, I did not stick my head into sand despite data proof and I did not manufacture "he said she said" arguments to not talk about the topic that I myself created.

You want an example of being thrown off track because of being stung by posts/data? - look hard and deep into your mirror.

Oh btw, I am discussing, matter of fact I have been the only person discussing between the two of us. At this point every post you do seems like overcompensation for lack of substance in your own thread and it is sad to see. My pity and sympathies to you ... whether you like it or not!

 

[Technics 1210]

Dont understand why the cult and Amreekans care so much about British Pakistanis. In search of an identity and purpose in life I guess.

Both Indians and Amreekans have been humiliated at a global scale so why should you Brit Pakistanis respond to such plebeians?

 

[DeadlyVenom]

Then there is no point asking me to go into conclusion if you want to stick your head in the sand.

Why do you not agree despite data with proof? How is this not proof that British Pakistani community does lag behind Pakistani Americans or even Afghan Americans?

Forget all personal attacks and let's just stick to this topic. Why do you not agree despite the data below? Please explain?

View attachment 161747

I will give you an interesting story about my friend group and one of the stats, namely women employment rate.

We are a group of say 10. Of those 10 only two have wives what work. Me and one other. All 10 of us have degrees and all 10 wives have degrees. All are moderately-strong religious by that I mean Muslims and practicing but not beards/hijab burqas.

Those 8 whose wives do not work view it as their duty to ensure their wives don't have to work. It is a source of pride.

 

[sweep_shot]

I created the thread to discuss issues, you aren't really discussing. All you are doing is repeatedly posting the same tables without any discussion other than rambling rants against individual posters and racist vibes against Bangladeshis and Afghans.

And why do you need me to accept or reject your tables? There are plenty of other posters here who have responded to your stats, you can engage with them. Or are you singularly stung by my posts that you have been thrown off track completely?

We have quite a few American-based posters here (both Pakistanis and non-Pakistanis). Most of them do not write like this.

I am guessing he is new to America and/or lives in some small town where he doesn't have much exposure.

Either way, his posts are all rants. Nothing factual or interesting.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

#1 Because you are the OP
#2 You are the one who asked me to go into conclusion, not others
#3 You are self projecting that I'm being thrown off track. Scroll up and see, I have stuck to the topic, I did not resort to personal attacks, I did not stick my head into sand despite data proof and I did not manufacture "he said she said" arguments to not talk about the topic that I myself created.

You want an example of being thrown off track because of being stung by posts/data? - look hard and deep into your mirror.

Oh btw, I am discussing, matter of fact I have been the only person discussing between the two of us. At this point every post you do seems like overcompensation for lack of substance in your own thread and it is sad to see. My pity and sympathies to you ... whether you like it or not!

I posted the thread. That does not mean the thread is about me, despite you writing what must be close to essay levels of material addressed at me.

If you have a point then make it, we've seen your tables already.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Dont understand why the cult and Amreekans care so much about British Pakistanis. In search of an identity and purpose in life I guess.

Both Indians and Amreekans have been humiliated at a global scale so why should you Brit Pakistanis respond to such plebeians?

Because they hold an enormous amount of resentment and and hatred towards British Pakistanis, and we are often referenced in jibes in many threads, by Indian posters mostly. I created the thread to try and get some understanding but most of the ones who usually make the jibes have stayed away but will be watching with interest I can guarantee it.

 

[Technics 1210]

Because they hold an enormous amount of resentment and and hatred towards British Pakistanis, and we are often referenced in jibes in many threads, by Indian posters mostly. I created the thread to try and get some understanding but most of the ones who usually make the jibes have stayed away but will be watching with interest I can guarantee it.

The question then is why.

Is it because Pakistan carved an identity out of India?

Is it because India's PM was exposed as a monkey dancing and singing for his masters in return for giggles?

Is it because Hindutva is a bankrupt ideology so they seek the light in Islam?

Is it because the Amreekans despise anything that is British?

Is it because the world witnessed Indians shacked like slaves in a C130 towards their motherland?

Is it because the world is renoucing the Indian propaganda?

Is it because Indians remain the only race to flee their upcoming 'Supa Puwa'

Is it because most Indians have Islam in their DNA?

Is it because Pakistan and Islam live rent free in an Indian mind?

The list is endless, but let me tell you one fact, cult India is embarrassed by its nation, its religion, its government - this is why the cult seek solace with their enemy.

When you got nothing, you got nothing to lose. Its even more pathetic for India when you consider they had everything, yet they lost it all.

Theres only one thing worse than being an Indian, its when you change your name to fit into the society that ruled you for over 200 years.

 

[Technics 1210]

Don't let the cult or Amreekans change the narrative. Between the two of them, they make Satan look like an angel.

 

[DeadlyVenom]

Then there is no point asking me to go into conclusion if you want to stick your head in the sand.

Why do you not agree despite data with proof? How is this not proof that British Pakistani community does lag behind Pakistani Americans or even Afghan Americans?

Forget all personal attacks and let's just stick to this topic. Why do you not agree despite the data below? Please explain?

View attachment 161747

@ElRaja @Markhor @shaz619

I believe we are roughly same age group, growing up in probably rough inner city areas across the country.

Would be interested to see what you make of the prison numbers?

Ive lived or been around the "trouble hotspot" areas at some point, and it seems like a lot of the problems are self inflicted rather than due to socio economic reasons as in other areas/communities.

Would you agree?

 

[ElRaja]

@ElRaja @Markhor @shaz619

I believe we are roughly same age group, growing up in probably rough inner city areas across the country.

Would be interested to see what you make of the prison numbers?

Ive lived or been around the "trouble hotspot" areas at some point, and it seems like a lot of the problems are self inflicted rather than due to socio economic reasons as in other areas/communities.

Would you agree?

before i answer let me preface by saying i dont believe any indian on this forum comes to these discussions in good faith...

i semi agree with you, but let me just set the scene, imagine growing up in one of the inner london boroughs, and every day you walk through areas where you have large gated houses, multiple cars, people dripped out and blinging, one of the best things about london has always been that its not as financially ghettoised as other major cities, you had a patchwork of rich and poorer areas like a mosaic all over the city.

now it doesnt matter who you are, if you came from an impoverished or marginalised background, and were in constant contact with wealth it does two things, firstly it shows you the larger world outside your fishbowl, and secondly for better or worse, it motivates you to better your lot. secondly, nearly all the pakistanis boys i grew up with were wannabe gangsters, but so were the black kids, the turks, and the mixed race kids.

now as an adult it seems stupid, but as a teen, having street cred, and "your boys" backing you meant a lot. naturally these networks were the perfect breeding ground, wealth at your doorstep, a desire to make money quick, and very high levels of localised criminal knowledge. i was twelve when i was approached by a friend (ironically an indian, lol) to do benefit fraud, he said hed let me in if i could work out how to alter the cheques.

now i can tell loads of other stories, but despite internet anonymity i would not risk talking about those things, needless to say, crime isnt a remote concept when you live in any big city and have a large social group. going back to your original point, its the proximity to wealth and the access to networks which, and lets be totally honest here, makes young british pakistani boys susceptible to getting involved in the drug / sex trade.

is it self inflicted? committing any crime is a choice, so how can any life of crime not be. the core issue is that our generation lived through a time when openly vilifying british pakistanis as honour killers, terrorists, pedos, gehttoised hicks, economic leeches, etc, was normalised in the mainstream media. when you grew up with that narrative where else would u think youd get a chance to change your lot when the opportunity comes knocking?

given how openly villified our community was, i find it heartening to see how our community is better represented in sport, politics, art, media, than the other british asians. and on top of that for those who brandish economic stats abt brit paks, yes, things arent perfect but brit paks have the second highest house ownership of any economic group, and a massive cash economy which sustains and higes their true wealth, so the topic requres a lot of naunce, but ive tried to paint the general outline in broad strokes.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

before i answer let me preface by saying i dont believe any indian on this forum comes to these discussions in good faith...

i semi agree with you, but let me just set the scene, imagine growing up in one of the inner london boroughs, and every day you walk through areas where you have large gated houses, multiple cars, people dripped out and blinging, one of the best things about london has always been that its not as financially ghettoised as other major cities, you had a patchwork of rich and poorer areas like a mosaic all over the city.

now it doesnt matter who you are, if you came from an impoverished or marginalised background, and were in constant contact with wealth it does two things, firstly it shows you the larger world outside your fishbowl, and secondly for better or worse, it motivates you to better your lot. secondly, nearly all the pakistanis boys i grew up with were wannabe gangsters, but so were the black kids, the turks, and the mixed race kids.

now as an adult it seems stupid, but as a teen, having street cred, and "your boys" backing you meant a lot. naturally these networks were the perfect breeding ground, wealth at your doorstep, a desire to make money quick, and very high levels of localised criminal knowledge. i was twelve when i was approached by a friend (ironically an indian, lol) to do benefit fraud, he said hed let me in if i could work out how to alter the cheques.

now i can tell loads of other stories, but despite internet anonymity i would not risk talking about those things, needless to say, crime isnt a remote concept when you live in any big city and have a large social group. going back to your original point, its the proximity to wealth and the access to networks which, and lets be totally honest here, makes young british pakistani boys susceptible to getting involved in the drug / sex trade.

is it self inflicted? committing any crime is a choice, so how can any life of crime not be. the core issue is that our generation lived through a time when openly vilifying british pakistanis as honour killers, terrorists, pedos, gehttoised hicks, economic leeches, etc, was normalised in the mainstream media. when you grew up with that narrative where else would u think youd get a chance to change your lot when the opportunity comes knocking?

given how openly villified our community was, i find it heartening to see how our community is better represented in sport, politics, art, media, than the other british asians. and on top of that for those who brandish economic stats abt brit paks, yes, things arent perfect but brit paks have the second highest house ownership of any economic group, and a massive cash economy which sustains and higes their true wealth, so the topic requres a lot of naunce, but ive tried to paint the general outline in broad strokes.

I always feel underqualified to talk on Pakistani communities as I have never really lived in any of the Pakistani hotspots in Britain. My experience was growing up at a very young age in a white council estate which I described briefly in an earlier post, but my family moved into a middle class area (still white) while I was still at primary school. But because I had cousins who still lived in the rough areas it gave me a close up look at the white chav community and alcohol fuelled violence during the daytime was a regular occurrence. After dark if you were still out, you would be in real danger of coming across these types in big groups.

I don't think comparisons with the USA make much sense. Maybe if there are American Pakistanis living in Baltimore or somewhere like Minnesota where you get old school white communities who are still living in the stone ages we might get a better idea.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

By the way, I have no idea what life is like in Baltimore, I am just going off The Wire that it must have a population which is 80% crack-addicted black Americans.

 

[DeadlyVenom]

before i answer let me preface by saying i dont believe any indian on this forum comes to these discussions in good faith...

i semi agree with you, but let me just set the scene, imagine growing up in one of the inner london boroughs, and every day you walk through areas where you have large gated houses, multiple cars, people dripped out and blinging, one of the best things about london has always been that its not as financially ghettoised as other major cities, you had a patchwork of rich and poorer areas like a mosaic all over the city.

now it doesnt matter who you are, if you came from an impoverished or marginalised background, and were in constant contact with wealth it does two things, firstly it shows you the larger world outside your fishbowl, and secondly for better or worse, it motivates you to better your lot. secondly, nearly all the pakistanis boys i grew up with were wannabe gangsters, but so were the black kids, the turks, and the mixed race kids.

now as an adult it seems stupid, but as a teen, having street cred, and "your boys" backing you meant a lot. naturally these networks were the perfect breeding ground, wealth at your doorstep, a desire to make money quick, and very high levels of localised criminal knowledge. i was twelve when i was approached by a friend (ironically an indian, lol) to do benefit fraud, he said hed let me in if i could work out how to alter the cheques.

now i can tell loads of other stories, but despite internet anonymity i would not risk talking about those things, needless to say, crime isnt a remote concept when you live in any big city and have a large social group. going back to your original point, its the proximity to wealth and the access to networks which, and lets be totally honest here, makes young british pakistani boys susceptible to getting involved in the drug / sex trade.

is it self inflicted? committing any crime is a choice, so how can any life of crime not be. the core issue is that our generation lived through a time when openly vilifying british pakistanis as honour killers, terrorists, pedos, gehttoised hicks, economic leeches, etc, was normalised in the mainstream media. when you grew up with that narrative where else would u think youd get a chance to change your lot when the opportunity comes knocking?

given how openly villified our community was, i find it heartening to see how our community is better represented in sport, politics, art, media, than the other british asians. and on top of that for those who brandish economic stats abt brit paks, yes, things arent perfect but brit paks have the second highest house ownership of any economic group, and a massive cash economy which sustains and higes their true wealth, so the topic requres a lot of naunce, but ive tried to paint the general outline in broad strokes.

It's a good post. And completely agree with the good points - I mentioned in the thread that we have soared really high in politics, sports, entertainment and various other sectors too.

We just have a weird relationship with crime. You can understand the people right at the bottom getting affected. But this purely anecdotal, I think a university graduate Brit Pak is statistically more likely to be a criminal than a university graduate of another community.

 

[ElRaja]

I always feel underqualified to talk on Pakistani communities as I have never really lived in any of the Pakistani hotspots in Britain. My experience was growing up at a very young age in a white council estate which I described briefly in an earlier post, but my family moved into a middle class area (still white) while I was still at primary school. But because I had cousins who still lived in the rough areas it gave me a close up look at the white chav community and alcohol fuelled violence during the daytime was a regular occurrence. After dark if you were still out, you would be in real danger of coming across these types in big groups.

I don't think comparisons with the USA make much sense. Maybe if there are American Pakistanis living in Baltimore or somewhere like Minnesota where you get old school white communities who are still living in the stone ages we might get a better idea.

the american community is very different to the british pakistani community, as you say, its simply not a valid comparison. amongst other things american pakistanis were never a large enough community to even be talking point, and when any negativity came towards them it was largely islamophobic in nature.

the britpak community along with the black community has been at the forefront of far rights conciousness for more than 60 years to the point the colloguial term for abusing any brown person was "pa7i bashing". british pakistanis are a very visisible part of this countries political fabric, and imo the media has fed into that demand and given britpaks a lot more stick than any other ethnic group, esepcially when our generations were young.

compare that to the usa, there was a latino rapper who was part of latino gangs, etc, everything till he revealed in an interview he was pakistani. thats how little being pakistani is a part of the american conciousness.

 

[ElRaja]

It's a good post. And completely agree with the good points - I mentioned in the thread that we have soared really high in politics, sports, entertainment and various other sectors too.

We just have a weird relationship with crime. You can understand the people right at the bottom getting affected. But this purely anecdotal, I think a university graduate Brit Pak is statistically more likely to be a criminal than a university graduate of another community.

yeah, for our generation id say its a manifestation of some form of societal PTSD... i think riz nails it wrt to the extremism in his verse from this song, i think the crime is just another manifestation of the same thing

 

[rickroll]

I will give you an interesting story about my friend group and one of the stats, namely women employment rate.

We are a group of say 10. Of those 10 only two have wives what work. Me and one other. All 10 of us have degrees and all 10 wives have degrees. All are moderately-strong religious by that I mean Muslims and practicing but not beards/hijab burqas.

Those 8 whose wives do not work view it as their duty to ensure their wives don't have to work. It is a source of pride.

Thank you for this, it is an interesting observation.

 

[DeadlyVenom]

Thank you for this, it is an interesting observation.

Sorry I got distracted by the cricket before.

I never finished my post.

I wanted to ask. what would you think of that mindset. Is it progressive or regressive/overly conservative.

 

[rickroll]

I posted the thread. That does not mean the thread is about me, despite you writing what must be close to essay levels of material addressed at me.

If you have a point then make it, we've seen your tables already.

I took the liberty of asking you to first accept existence of the problem given the data proof because you took the liberty of asking me to go into conclusion. If you can ask me to do something that I can do the same to you. You ain't special just because you have been here since 2010.

Stop manufacturing arguments to escape from answering. You asked me to go into conclusions so I am within my right to return the same request to confirm the existence of the problem.

My intent, what you think my background is, my user name, my writing style ... maybe you will wonder about my t-shirt color, belt buckle style, hair length or whatever else you can conjure to escape from answering. None of those deflections matter and I do have the right to request you so you requested something of me AND made a presumptuous comment about which fwlow Muslims I should/should not send my sympathies to. Making statements like that makes it seem similar to the Indian trolls infesting these forums.

Given all of this ... do not manufacture arguments and just answer why you believe British Pakistanis do not lag behind Pakistani Americans and Afghan Americans despite proof of HDI metrics? Simple question that needs a simple straight forward answer.

 

[rickroll]

before i answer let me preface by saying i dont believe any indian on this forum comes to these discussions in good faith...

i semi agree with you, but let me just set the scene, imagine growing up in one of the inner london boroughs, and every day you walk through areas where you have large gated houses, multiple cars, people dripped out and blinging, one of the best things about london has always been that its not as financially ghettoised as other major cities, you had a patchwork of rich and poorer areas like a mosaic all over the city.

now it doesnt matter who you are, if you came from an impoverished or marginalised background, and were in constant contact with wealth it does two things, firstly it shows you the larger world outside your fishbowl, and secondly for better or worse, it motivates you to better your lot. secondly, nearly all the pakistanis boys i grew up with were wannabe gangsters, but so were the black kids, the turks, and the mixed race kids.

now as an adult it seems stupid, but as a teen, having street cred, and "your boys" backing you meant a lot. naturally these networks were the perfect breeding ground, wealth at your doorstep, a desire to make money quick, and very high levels of localised criminal knowledge. i was twelve when i was approached by a friend (ironically an indian, lol) to do benefit fraud, he said hed let me in if i could work out how to alter the cheques.

now i can tell loads of other stories, but despite internet anonymity i would not risk talking about those things, needless to say, crime isnt a remote concept when you live in any big city and have a large social group. going back to your original point, its the proximity to wealth and the access to networks which, and lets be totally honest here, makes young british pakistani boys susceptible to getting involved in the drug / sex trade.

is it self inflicted? committing any crime is a choice, so how can any life of crime not be. the core issue is that our generation lived through a time when openly vilifying british pakistanis as honour killers, terrorists, pedos, gehttoised hicks, economic leeches, etc, was normalised in the mainstream media. when you grew up with that narrative where else would u think youd get a chance to change your lot when the opportunity comes knocking?

given how openly villified our community was, i find it heartening to see how our community is better represented in sport, politics, art, media, than the other british asians. and on top of that for those who brandish economic stats abt brit paks, yes, things arent perfect but brit paks have the second highest house ownership of any economic group, and a massive cash economy which sustains and higes their true wealth, so the topic requres a lot of naunce, but ive tried to paint the general outline in broad strokes.

THIS!! Thank you @ElRaja

Btw, I do not understand why this thread has the usual Indian and Bangladeshi trolls since it does not concern them at all ... but whatever!

You see, an outsider like me can research all the data about the community but I cannot have the knowledge of the "lived in" experience, just as how some of you cannot have my knowledge of "lived in" experience in California. I'm appreciative of this insight due to multiple personal reasons.

My family has three 2nd cousins that are British Pakistanis. Even though there is some level of cordiality among our parents and their parents, the dynamics between us Pakistani Americans (my cousins, siblings, and I) and those 3 have always been not smooth. None of them three have good jobs or careers, they are all in the 35-45 age range and unmarried. Two of them have had juvenile crime, and one of them has intermittent drug issues. I do not want to share where in UK there live in or what part of Pakistan their parents (my parents' cousins) are from due to privacy concerns.

The difference between them three and my generation (me, siblings, cousins) in the US is so stark. We are a mix of MBA from world's top schools in the US, doctors, tech business owners (not corner store 711) in the US -- men and women.

Every time we (my generation US side of the family) tried broaching this topic with those 3, it inevitably turned it into twisting it into an argument and evading the question, exactly like the "self appointed British Pakistani captain" in this thread. Mind you, we tried talking to them after their parents consistently bemoaned about their kids to them and ... after those 3 consistently got on all of our nerves ... how you ask? Well, they would consistently lecture us about being more Islamic (their representation of Islam), lecture us that women should not work and one even dared to question my parents about letting my sister have a career, lecture to us that our wives should not work, lectured me how I should raise my son and daughter in different ways and on and on. The thick irony is that they make lewd comments about western women when the elders or kids are not around -- irony in their behavior is so thick. I have wondered many a times how truly Muslim they are under all of this posturing but I know it is not worth the confrontation with such idiots.

We tried to have a genuine talk to understand their pov by even keeping it generic asking about the community's lack of progress, it is the same insecure defensive reaction as we see in this thread. Same BS of manufacturing argument, devolving into "you said, I said" so they can hide behind the argument and avoid acknowledging the issue, let along thinking about why the issue is happening.

I will say this in all honestly as a parent. I would not advise any parent have their daughters unsupervised around those 2nd cousins of mine. They are my extended family in UK, a source of shame, and we will cut off communications with them after my parents' generation.

Wanting to understand the British Pakistani lived experience, historical mindset, current mindset etc is one of the reasons I read this forum since we have had negative experience in our family. I do come across as coming at hard with facts because my family has had years of gaslighting and deflection from the British Pakistani side so I rather just be straight+blunt with data, inference, reasoning, conclusion even if it means some insecure people wondering if I have an agenda (I really don't) or if some people claim I am Israeli/Indian/Nigerian/Martian or whatever else crazy.

I may lie, you may lie, or others may lie - but facts are facts and do not lie. So my approach in understanding an issue is to start with facts and drill down into the reasonings. I'm saying this so that good British Pakistani posters here get why some of us from outside come at this issue hard and also not be turned off by how people like me react when some of the insecure British Pakistani posters here make personal attacks against us.

 

[sweep_shot]

By the way, I have no idea what life is like in Baltimore, I am just going off The Wire that it must have a population which is 80% crack-addicted black Americans.

I have been to Baltimore. One of my uncle's in-law family lives there.

It is one of the most unappealing cities in USA. Crimes are very high too.

 

[rickroll]

Sorry I got distracted by the cricket before.

I never finished my post.

I wanted to ask. what would you think of that mindset. Is it progressive or regressive/overly conservative.

It's ok bhai, I'm equally reeling bad (and feeling bad) thanks to yet another embarrassing painful defeat.

what would you think of that mindset. Is it progressive or regressive/overly conservative. -- I think it is regressive and I will not agree with that mindset. I have a sister who is one of the smartest post PhD research scientist in her field. All of my siblings are close with our kids hanging out on weekends. We emphasize education and good career for all of the female kids as much as the male kids in the next generation as well, not just ours.

 

[rickroll]

Dont understand why the cult and Amreekans care so much about British Pakistanis. In search of an identity and purpose in life I guess.

Both Indians and Amreekans have been humiliated at a global scale so why should you Brit Pakistanis respond to such plebeians?

If you call Pakistani Americans as just Amreekans then what are British Pakistanis, just Brits equally accountable for all the atrocities the British army committed in Muslim lands in the past 20+ years?

 

[DeadlyVenom]

It's ok bhai, I'm equally reeling bad (and feeling bad) thanks to yet another embarrassing painful defeat.

what would you think of that mindset. Is it progressive or regressive/overly conservative. -- I think it is regressive and I will not agree with that mindset. I have a sister who is one of the smartest post PhD research scientist in her field. All of my siblings are close with our kids hanging out on weekends. We emphasize education and good career for all of the female kids as much as the male kids in the next generation as well, not just ours.

It's interesting.

Those guys are at the top of their fields, and they nor their wives consider it regressive.
In fact I think they think that we whose wives are working are regressive.
Now I'm not saying that this is the only explanation for women's workplace numbers being low in our community...but for many British Pakistanis the aspiration is not for women to work, it is that the male should bear that responsibility solely and if he can't do that and provide for his family, then he has failed.

 

[rickroll]

We have quite a few American-based posters here (both Pakistanis and non-Pakistanis). Most of them do not write like this.

I am guessing he is new to America and/or lives in some small town where he doesn't have much exposure.

Either way, his posts are all rants. Nothing factual or interesting.

If anything I am the one who posted facts in this thread, please read if your Chittagong pind school has every taught you that. You have no idea what town or city or county I live in, so stop assuming. You are just a blind support parrot who is agenda driven. According to you, the guy making personal attacks against me is a fact based poster while I who did compiled all the HDI metrics is the one ranting ... priceless how clueless you are.

Why is a Bangladesh poster so interested in chiming in to the extent of making presumptuous comments about Pakistani posters' backgrounds when the thread topic does not even concern you? It is one thing to contribute to a thread (it is an open forum after all) but another level to post presumptuous comments about people in a thread that does not even concern you.

 

[rickroll]

It's interesting.

Those guys are at the top of their fields, and they nor their wives consider it regressive.
In fact I think they think that we whose wives are working are regressive.
Now I'm not saying that this is the only explanation for women's workplace numbers being low in our community...but for many British Pakistanis the aspiration is not for women to work, it is that the male should bear that responsibility solely and if he can't do that and provide for his family, then he has failed.

In a way I am not surprised (my long personal post #143 about my family and how this issue ties to my family). My extended cousins (all unmarried into early middle age) and without good jobs not only believe this but have the audacity to lecture our US side of the family that we are un-Islamic because we have let women work. Complete losers!

My question - the British Pakistanis who think wives working are regressive, are they mostly born in the UK or are they immigrants from Pakistan?

 

[ElRaja]

THIS!! Thank you @ElRaja

Btw, I do not understand why this thread has the usual Indian and Bangladeshi trolls since it does not concern them at all ... but whatever!

You see, an outsider like me can research all the data about the community but I cannot have the knowledge of the "lived in" experience, just as how some of you cannot have my knowledge of "lived in" experience in California. I'm appreciative of this insight due to multiple personal reasons.

My family has three 2nd cousins that are British Pakistanis. Even though there is some level of cordiality among our parents and their parents, the dynamics between us Pakistani Americans (my cousins, siblings, and I) and those 3 have always been not smooth. None of them three have good jobs or careers, they are all in the 35-45 age range and unmarried. Two of them have had juvenile crime, and one of them has intermittent drug issues. I do not want to share where in UK there live in or what part of Pakistan their parents (my parents' cousins) are from due to privacy concerns.

The difference between them three and my generation (me, siblings, cousins) in the US is so stark. We are a mix of MBA from world's top schools in the US, doctors, tech business owners (not corner store 711) in the US -- men and women.

Every time we (my generation US side of the family) tried broaching this topic with those 3, it inevitably turned it into twisting it into an argument and evading the question, exactly like the "self appointed British Pakistani captain" in this thread. Mind you, we tried talking to them after their parents consistently bemoaned about their kids to them and ... after those 3 consistently got on all of our nerves ... how you ask? Well, they would consistently lecture us about being more Islamic (their representation of Islam), lecture us that women should not work and one even dared to question my parents about letting my sister have a career, lecture to us that our wives should not work, lectured me how I should raise my son and daughter in different ways and on and on. The thick irony is that they make lewd comments about western women when the elders or kids are not around -- irony in their behavior is so thick. I have wondered many a times how truly Muslim they are under all of this posturing but I know it is not worth the confrontation with such idiots.

We tried to have a genuine talk to understand their pov by even keeping it generic asking about the community's lack of progress, it is the same insecure defensive reaction as we see in this thread. Same BS of manufacturing argument, devolving into "you said, I said" so they can hide behind the argument and avoid acknowledging the issue, let along thinking about why the issue is happening.

I will say this in all honestly as a parent. I would not advise any parent have their daughters unsupervised around those 2nd cousins of mine. They are my extended family in UK, a source of shame, and we will cut off communications with them after my parents' generation.

Wanting to understand the British Pakistani lived experience, historical mindset, current mindset etc is one of the reasons I read this forum since we have had negative experience in our family. I do come across as coming at hard with facts because my family has had years of gaslighting and deflection from the British Pakistani side so I rather just be straight+blunt with data, inference, reasoning, conclusion even if it means some insecure people wondering if I have an agenda (I really don't) or if some people claim I am Israeli/Indian/Nigerian/Martian or whatever else crazy.

I may lie, you may lie, or others may lie - but facts are facts and do not lie. So my approach in understanding an issue is to start with facts and drill down into the reasonings. I'm saying this so that good British Pakistani posters here get why some of us from outside come at this issue hard and also not be turned off by how people like me react when some of the insecure British Pakistani posters here make personal attacks against us.

i have cousins who i have not had meaningful interactions with in the last twenty odd years, they live in the north, so lack of proximity makes keeping in touch difficult, but i never felt i could relate to them. my point was essentially that we can call out where things have gone wrong in our community, but at the same appreciate why that has happened.

a few of the points u raise

1. a problem with women studying, working. i dont think its a british pakistani thing, as much as an economically inactive thing, where desis use it as an excuse to keep some form of control over women, because the only way of maintaining respect as a man in our community is being a breadwinner, manly man provider husband. i know hundreds of pakistanis and none has discouraged their women from working, some want them to be in women dominant fields, but no one has said sit at home, dont study, etc. so i think its unfair to stick that on all britpaks.

2. conservative, extremists religious outlooks, this is more common in britpaks because brits in general are politically very cynical. americans get excited for elections, vote for two candidates from essentially the little part of the political spectrum and genuinely believe they can change the world (i may be exagerating, but this is my experience in dealing with americans), whereas brits have virtually no belief left in the political system. when the state has no buy in people look for other alternates, and given the history ive mentioned and the how britpaks were seen as terrorists post 9/11, it wasnt a big leap to make to adopt that world view wholesale, where conventional politics had failed. this however has receded significantly in recent times.

3. your contrast, again you have to discount for what jobs your parents did, what communities you were raised in, what opportunities you had and compare that to the communities, opportunities, etc, they had. like i dont think pakistanis have ever stood out for being pakistani in the usa, just for being muslim maybe, and if thats true, does that degree of inconspirciousness not buy you the breathing room to develop into your own individual personlalities. ive done well for myself, but im not impervious to the fact that involved a lot of luck, and my parents making good decisions too.

 

[sweep_shot]

I personally find British people/culture (including British Pakistanis) awesome. Not just UK but whole of Europe. I just like the vibe.

America feels too robotic, soulless, and vanilla for me. Not to mention so many mass shootings and so many crazy people. This is the country that elects a retard like Trump; not once but twice.

Only thing America has to offer is good salaries. For every other metric, UK, Canada, New Zealand etc. are way superior.

 

[rickroll]

I personally find British people/culture (including British Pakistanis) awesome. Not just UK but whole of Europe. I just like the vibe.

America feels too robotic, soulless, and vanilla for me. Not to mention so many mass shootings and so many crazy people. This is the country that elects a retard like Trump; not once but twice.

Only thing America has to offer is good salaries. For every other metric, UK, Canada, New Zealand etc. are way superior.

None of this verbal vomit is in any way related to this thread. We are not comparing countries but we are very much comparing British Pakistani community to other Pakistani communities.

Pretty much knows now and is aware that the US sucks in so many social benefit, metric, and political aspects but that is not the topic of this thread - just cluing you in about how clueless your post is.

 

[rpant_gabba]

All,

please ignore @rickroll pessimistic posts. British Pakistanis are the bestest community and they will get better with a more stricter version of Islam. No education for women as it leads to breakdown of family structure. Please consider absorbing BD brothers as they also have a proper conservative outlook.

 

[JaDed]

I always feel underqualified to talk on Pakistani communities as I have never really lived in any of the Pakistani hotspots in Britain. My experience was growing up at a very young age in a white council estate which I described briefly in an earlier post, but my family moved into a middle class area (still white) while I was still at primary school. But because I had cousins who still lived in the rough areas it gave me a close up look at the white chav community and alcohol fuelled violence during the daytime was a regular occurrence. After dark if you were still out, you would be in real danger of coming across these types in big groups.

I don't think comparisons with the USA make much sense. Maybe if there are American Pakistanis living in Baltimore or somewhere like Minnesota where you get old school white communities who are still living in the stone ages we might get a better idea.

Houston was as white as it gets or atleast used to be, Pakistani communities have been extremely entrepreneurial there.. if that’s your comparison.

 

[aboveandbeyond]

In a way I am not surprised (my long personal post #143 about my family and how this issue ties to my family). My extended cousins (all unmarried into early middle age) and without good jobs not only believe this but have the audacity to lecture our US side of the family that we are un-Islamic because we have let women work. Complete losers!

My question - the British Pakistanis who think wives working are regressive, are they mostly born in the UK or are they immigrants from Pakistan?

Maybe that's a issue in your part of your extended family where the wives are not working because of some logic. Additionally that logic cannot be religious based as the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) fist wife was a successful businesswoman

As far as im aware alot ot the Brit - Paks that i know of both Husband and wives are working . In the current economic climate its pretty much impossible for both not to work without managing to run a home with kids.

 

[JaDed]

Maybe that's a issue in your part of your extended family where the wives are not working because of some logic. Additionally that logic cannot be religious based as the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) fist wife was a successful businesswoman

As far as im aware alot ot the Brit - Paks that i know of both Husband and wives are working . In the current economic climate its pretty much impossible for both not to work without managing to run a home with kids.

All women in my family work, from my late grandmother who was a teacher to my aunts ,cousins to all classmates I grew up with, yet Indian female participation in workforce is 23%, sometimes we don’t know the stats.

 

[RizwanT20Champ]

None of this verbal vomit is in any way related to this thread. We are not comparing countries but we are very much comparing British Pakistani community to other Pakistani communities.

Pretty much knows now and is aware that the US sucks in so many social benefit, metric, and political aspects but that is not the topic of this thread - just cluing you in about how clueless your post is.

@Cpt. Rishwat in this thread has been his usual self - deflect, deflect, deflect, strawman and then ad hominem. It is laughable that he would choose to go after usernames when his own username is one of the worst possible in terms of meaning and creativity. The data is clear - British Pakistanis are far behind American Pakistanis and other Pakistanis on major HDI parameters. How much of that is due to America being a superior country is debatable but to simply deny it is classic Rishwat. These blokes are too used to debating with the likes of @cricketjoshila so when they do come up against posters like us who can destroy them with facts and grammar, they don't like it.

 

[aboveandbeyond]

All women in my family work, from my late grandmother who was a teacher to my aunts ,cousins to all classmates I grew up with, yet Indian female participation in workforce is 23%, sometimes we don’t know the stats.

Yep same here. Having said that, maybe it is a culture thing from immigrants from the past.

I'd be astounded if the same applied to the current Generations. It's a different world we live in.

 

[RizwanT20Champ]

Maybe that's a issue in your part of your extended family where the wives are not working because of some logic. Additionally that logic cannot be religious based as the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) fist wife was a successful businesswoman

As far as im aware alot ot the Brit - Paks that i know of both Husband and wives are working . In the current economic climate its pretty much impossible for both not to work without managing to run a home with kids.

I would take the bolded with a pinch of salt. British Pakistani women tend to be housewives - there were some figures that around 50% of British Pakistani women are unemployed. There is nothing inherently wrong with that but compared to American Pakistanis, or other British communities, that figure is disproportionate.

 

[aboveandbeyond]

I would take the bolded with a pinch of salt. British Pakistani women tend to be housewives - there were some figures that around 50% of British Pakistani women are unemployed. There is nothing inherently wrong with that but compared to American Pakistanis, or other British communities, that figure is disproportionate.

Like I said that was maybe a culture thing of past Generations.

The younger and current Generation this certainly does not apply to them.