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British Politics: the Mega-Thread

Technics 1210 said:
Come on mate, your party does want to overturn Brexit, how do you think it is attracting people to it's view? The message of your party is simple, Stop Brexit.
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By getting a second referendum by the people.
 
Robert said:
How can a socialist possibly vote for Brexit? The working class will be hurt the most - millions of jobs lost and austerity forever. You are putting your ideology before the lives of the people you claim to support!
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I do not accept your baseless assertion that Brexit will cause a recession/deep economic downturn which I believe is what you are saying. Leaving aside the issue of automation & AI which will lead to widespread job losses anyway;brexit or no brexit a global recession is coming which will cause huge devastation; brexit is merely a sideshow and symptom of this not the cause.

The cause is the massive amount of debt in the financial system both personal & corporate which has now reached saturation point,this has been caused by Central Banks around the world running disastrous QE programmes and low/zero interest rate policies, especially in the Eurozone which has led to forced austerity for the masses and year on year decline of living standards, whilst the elite 1-5% have enjoyed the biggest transfer of wealth to them in financial history via inflated asset bubbles and even more debt.

The next phase is debt exhaustion and a deflationary bust as Central Banks start popping the 'Everything bubble' economy. This is a recession where there will be massive corporate defaults (balance sheet recession),collapse in asset bubbles, lack of debt demand & a collapse in economic activity that can't be fixed by lowering rates or creating more debt s previously has been the case. Adding to this is the current trade war between USA & China; hitherto China has been supporting the markets by creating liquidity but looks likely they will be turning this off. Other factors are demise of the petrodollar and possible rise of the petroyuan( or another IMF backed world centralised currency) as the financial capital of the world shifts eastwards; by the 2030s China will be the financial centre not USA. All of this will cause economic downturn, not brexit which at a macro level is small fry in comparison.

Capitalism runs in cycles not just boom and bust but also interest rate cycles (35-40 year cycle), we are coming to the end of the era of low interest rates and I reckon the next cycle will be of higher rates and higher inflation but before that there will be massive wealth devastation.

Re your point about socialism. I do not consider myself to be a socialist (these days left/right is a false paradigm, some of my worldview is influenced by socialism/marxism but also by anarchism (decentralisation of power,removal of hierarchies,localism), classic liberalism ( not the faux LD- neither liberal nor democratic) & capitalism.

How can a socialist not vote for Brexit? The following great stalwarts of the Labour left were anti-EU/EEC, were they not democratic socialists: Tony Benn, Michael Foot, Barbara Castle, Peter Shore? Those alive today who support Lexit: Tariq Ali, Bryan Gould (great loss to the Labour Party), George Galloway.

The EU in its essence is a failed neoliberal project, actually I would call it fascistic, it really is the blending of corporate and banking power with that of political power, the only thing missing hitherto has been militarism, however we are seeing the emergence of that too with talk of an EU army and the disgraceful tacit approval EU gave to the paramilitary violence against Yellow Vest French protesters and state violence against Catalan separatists.

From its inception the EU has been a corrupt top down project driven by bureaucratic elites who care very little for representative democracy. It's heart has always been neoliberal/worst form of capitalism, no wonder it was Thatcher who forcefully promoted the idea of a Single Market with free movement of capital.goods and labour which pitted various working classes against each other with wage arbitration and stagnation.
 
[MENTION=7774]Robert[/MENTION] where I do agree with you having read your posts is the rise of fascism in UK and persecution of minorities, I can see it happening definitely in mainland Europe but yes also here in UK & Muslims will face the brunt of it. Where we differ is that I believe Brexit is a symptom and byproduct of austerity,lowering living standards etc and not the cause of an economic downturn.

As a non-believer but with a brown face and Muslim name I am under no illusions that I or my family will be spared; pains me to say it as someone born and brought up in UK but I am definitely making backup plans if I really does get ugly and I would urge others to do the same. You may think this is hyperbole and laughable but many Jews in 1920s in Germany & elsewhere in Europe used to feel the same towards fellow few prescient Jews who say the writing on the wall and escaped to UK,USA and Palestine before the real persecution started.
 
irfan said:
[MENTION=7774]Robert[/MENTION] where I do agree with you having read your posts is the rise of fascism in UK and persecution of minorities, I can see it happening definitely in mainland Europe but yes also here in UK & Muslims will face the brunt of it. Where we differ is that I believe Brexit is a symptom and byproduct of austerity,lowering living standards etc and not the cause of an economic downturn.

As a non-believer but with a brown face and Muslim name I am under no illusions that I or my family will be spared; pains me to say it as someone born and brought up in UK but I am definitely making backup plans if I really does get ugly and I would urge others to do the same. You may think this is hyperbole and laughable but many Jews in 1920s in Germany & elsewhere in Europe used to feel the same towards fellow few prescient Jews who say the writing on the wall and escaped to UK,USA and Palestine before the real persecution started.
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Come on mate I don't think it will become that bad, I refuse to believe the UK will turn into Nazi Germany and perform a genocide on minorities and muslims; I feel these groups have it much harder even in the US. We certainly have many many issues and a rise of facism but there is more good then bad.
 
shaz619 said:
Come on mate I don't think it will become that bad, I refuse to believe the UK will turn into Nazi Germany and perform a genocide on minorities and muslims; I feel these groups have it much harder even in the US. We certainly have many many issues and a rise of facism but there is more good then bad.
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I agree with you but I look at things from a risk management perspective, the risk of the scenario I have depicted is currently low but it is increasing and in an economic downturn it will be greater.
 
irfan said:
[MENTION=7774]Robert[/MENTION] where I do agree with you having read your posts is the rise of fascism in UK and persecution of minorities, I can see it happening definitely in mainland Europe but yes also here in UK & Muslims will face the brunt of it. Where we differ is that I believe Brexit is a symptom and byproduct of austerity,lowering living standards etc and not the cause of an economic downturn.

As a non-believer but with a brown face and Muslim name I am under no illusions that I or my family will be spared; pains me to say it as someone born and brought up in UK but I am definitely making backup plans if I really does get ugly and I would urge others to do the same. You may think this is hyperbole and laughable but many Jews in 1920s in Germany & elsewhere in Europe used to feel the same towards fellow few prescient Jews who say the writing on the wall and escaped to UK,USA and Palestine before the real persecution started.
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I don’t think you are being hyperbolic and laughable, I think your fears are justified. Bad times are coming. My blue eyes would protect me were I not married to a woman of colour, and I have serious thoughts about applying for an Irish passport.

I think Brexit was in part due to austerity but also due to a rise in English nationalism. The Scots, Welsh and Ulstermen have their Assemblies but the English do not. Were there an English Assembly then the sense of outrage due to English exceptionalism would have been contained and a pillar of Brexit would never have been built. It will be hard to put that genie back in the bottle.

As for your earlier lengthy point: I am not an economist by trade but go by the Government’s own impact assessments and what is happening in my own industry. If the assessments are correct then all possible Brexits will lead to massive job losses, more austerity, more inequality and hence more anger and that has to be bad for us all.

On your Catelan point, you seem to posit a Schrödinger’s EU which is simultaneously fascist and unwilling to exert authority to halt state violence.
 
Technics 1210 said:
I think you are pulling my leg now.

You clearly want the 2016 result, by the people, overturned, because it was not the result you wanted.
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Overturned by the people.

We had a vote to leave but not where to go. What sort of Brexit do you favour?
 
Robert said:
Overturned by the people.

We had a vote to leave but not where to go. What sort of Brexit do you favour?
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We had a referendum, leave won, 400+ constituencies voted Leave. If it were a GE, it would be a landslide victory. The majority of the electorate spoke, but MPs decided to thwart Brexit because like yourself, and the party you support, they were unhappy with the result.

You should be asking why MPs are not fulfilling a democratic result when the government works for the people. So all this talk about overturned by the people, is a complete joke given the people's voice was ignored in 2016. So please do not champion democracy or speak of the people, until the 2016 result is implemented. The success of the Brexit party is indicative of what is to come when the people are ignored. Farage was finished after 2016, but your parties, your views, have given him another reason to exist.

I voted to Leave the EU - leave the 4 pillars of the EU, along with 17.4 Million. It was a simple instruction.

If you think Brexit is going to be bad for the UK from an economic perspective, then you have not seen anything yet. Destroying faith in democracy, destroying trust in the Government, destroying any level of certainty, is 100 times worse. From civil unrest to the rise of populous politics to businesses afraid of investing in the UK due to uncertainty. Then I am sure your party will claim Brexit is a racist right wing motive - by then, you will only have yourselves to blame.
 
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Technics 1210 said:
We had a referendum, leave won, 400+ constituencies voted Leave. If it were a GE, it would be a landslide victory. The majority of the electorate spoke, but MPs decided to thwart Brexit because like yourself, and the party you support, they were unhappy with the result.

You should be asking why MPs are not fulfilling a democratic result when the government works for the people. So all this talk about overturned by the people, is a complete joke given the people's voice was ignored in 2016. So please do not champion democracy or speak of the people, until the 2016 result is implemented. The success of the Brexit party is indicative of what is to come when the people are ignored. Farage was finished after 2016, but your parties, your views, have given him another reason to exist.

I voted to Leave the EU - leave the 4 pillars of the EU, along with 17.4 Million. It was a simple instruction.

If you think Brexit is going to be bad for the UK from an economic perspective, then you have not seen anything yet. Destroying faith in democracy, destroying trust in the Government, destroying any level of certainty, is 100 times worse. From civil unrest to the rise of populous politics to businesses afraid of investing in the UK due to uncertainty. Then I am sure your party will claim Brexit is a racist right wing motive - by then, you will only have yourselves to blame.
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The Referendum was advisory so Parliament doesn’t have to act on the advice.

But the people were never offered a destination so it seems fair that they vote again to tell Parliament where to go, what they want instead of what they don’t want.

Ok, you have told me what you don’t want but what do you want? Norway or free trade deal or no deal? How will you prevent breach of the GFA, an international peace treaty?
 
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Robert said:
The Referendum was advisory so Parliament doesn’t have to act on the advice.

But the people were never offered a destination so it seems fair that they vote again to tell Parliament where to go, what they want instead of what they don’t want.

Ok, you have told me what you don’t want but what do you want? Norway or free trade deal or no deal? How will you prevent breach of the GFA, an international peace treaty?
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Advisory you say? Come on mate! Parliament passed the bill to offer a referendum on the EU membership and debated the referendum for 2 years! If it were advisory there'd be no need to pass legislation in the first place! I should also remind you that Parliament passed to trigger A50 too!

The people were offered a destination, that being, stay inside or outside of the EU What you are referring to is how to achieve the destination.

Even if we grant your notion that the people were not offered a destination, then why not have a referendum on how we leave! Deal, or no Deal on the ballot paper, this way the result of 2016 is honored.

Of course you would like remain on the ballot paper. So here's the thing, MPs are asking the people to vote on a deal, and they would listen to the people. fIthe People vote Leave with a deal, then the MPs would implement the result. How is this any different to what we have now? Basically remainers are trying to remain via the back door.

I have already told you what I want, leave the EU which means leave the 4 pillars of the EU.

GFA is neither here nor there. There were open borders long before the EU was created. The issue with GFA is the threat of return of the IRA. That is it.

Now let me ask you a question, why do you, and your party, want to thwart the biggest exercise in British democratic history? Don't tell me LDs message is not *Stop Brexit*, because it is.
 
Technics 1210 said:
Advisory you say? Come on mate! Parliament passed the bill to offer a referendum on the EU membership and debated the referendum for 2 years! If it were advisory there'd be no need to pass legislation in the first place! I should also remind you that Parliament passed to trigger A50 too!

The people were offered a destination, that being, stay inside or outside of the EU What you are referring to is how to achieve the destination.

Even if we grant your notion that the people were not offered a destination, then why not have a referendum on how we leave! Deal, or no Deal on the ballot paper, this way the result of 2016 is honored.

Of course you would like remain on the ballot paper. So here's the thing, MPs are asking the people to vote on a deal, and they would listen to the people. fIthe People vote Leave with a deal, then the MPs would implement the result. How is this any different to what we have now? Basically remainers are trying to remain via the back door.

I have already told you what I want, leave the EU which means leave the 4 pillars of the EU.

GFA is neither here nor there. There were open borders long before the EU was created. The issue with GFA is the threat of return of the IRA. That is it.

Now let me ask you a question, why do you, and your party, want to thwart the biggest exercise in British democratic history? Don't tell me LDs message is not *Stop Brexit*, because it is.
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The Referendum was advisory according to the Referendum Act 2015. But then Cameron confused the issue with that leaflet.

The people were not offered a destination - they were shown a way out but not asked where to go. You didn’t say what relationship you want with the EU. Free trade, no deal?

I would settle for a referendum on where to go. Some are less damaging than others. Norway would mean the least economic damage but we would be rule takers not drivers. Corbyn’s option would mean years more austerity and we would be unable to make our own trade deals but the GFA
would remain. Free trade is more damaging and doesn’t fix the GFA. No Deal is unthinkable.

The GFA is absolutely critical to me. Remember my heritage. And to the three million Britons in NI and their neighbours in the Republic. We can’t break the GFA, we just can’t, it’s horrifying.

We don’t want to thwart it, we want the people to change their minds.
 
Robert said:
The Referendum was advisory according to the Referendum Act 2015. But then Cameron confused the issue with that leaflet.

The people were not offered a destination - they were shown a way out but not asked where to go. You didn’t say what relationship you want with the EU. Free trade, no deal?

I would settle for a referendum on where to go. Some are less damaging than others. Norway would mean the least economic damage but we would be rule takers not drivers. Corbyn’s option would mean years more austerity and we would be unable to make our own trade deals but the GFA
would remain. Free trade is more damaging and doesn’t fix the GFA. No Deal is unthinkable.

The GFA is absolutely critical to me. Remember my heritage. And to the three million Britons in NI and their neighbours in the Republic. We can’t break the GFA, we just can’t, it’s horrifying.

We don’t want to thwart it, we want the people to change their minds.
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I thought I was clear, No Deal - out of the 4 pillars of the EU. Leave the EU.

So you wouldn't mind a referendum on the type of deal? i.e Destination? Fair enough, but why have remain on the ballot then?

There is nothing wrong in changing people's mind, this is democracy, but what is not democracy is when MPs/Parties refuse to implement a democratic result in hope they change the people's mind before the result is implemented. It's like saying Corbyn wins the GE election, but he cannot walk into Number 10 unless the people have another go and confirm their decision, with the off chance another PM is elected.

Democracy doesn't work like this. If it did, then there would be an other election after Tories formed a coalition with the LDs in 2010, because NO ONE voted for a coalition. In the same way a re-election after 2017, because NO ONE voted for a coalition with the DUP.

Why are you so afraid of a no deal? Doesn't this demonstrate that the great British spirit is actually a facade because people are afraid we cannot stand on our own? Are you really suggesting our survival depends on the EU?

As for GFA. I understand your concerns, but it has nothing to do with the EU. The issue is the return of the IRA. We heard of the failed letter bombs, and bombs exploding in Londonderry during the Brexit negotiations. You really want to accept we are being held to ransom by a terrorist organisation?
 
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<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Former Brexit secretary Dominic Raab has announced he will run for the Conservative Party leadership saying he will "fight for a fairer deal on Brexit, a fairer deal for British workers and a fairer society where every child can fulfil their potential"</p>— Sky News Breaking (@SkyNewsBreak) <a href="https://twitter.com/SkyNewsBreak/status/1132375905312100352?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">May 25, 2019</a></blockquote>
<script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
 
irfan said:
How can a socialist not vote for Brexit? The following great stalwarts of the Labour left were anti-EU/EEC, were they not democratic socialists: Tony Benn, Michael Foot, Barbara Castle, Peter Shore? Those alive today who support Lexit: Tariq Ali, Bryan Gould (great loss to the Labour Party), George Galloway.

The EU in its essence is a failed neoliberal project, actually I would call it fascistic, it really is the blending of corporate and banking power with that of political power, the only thing missing hitherto has been militarism, however we are seeing the emergence of that too with talk of an EU army and the disgraceful tacit approval EU gave to the paramilitary violence against Yellow Vest French protesters and state violence against Catalan separatists.

From its inception the EU has been a corrupt top down project driven by bureaucratic elites who care very little for representative democracy. It's heart has always been neoliberal/worst form of capitalism, no wonder it was Thatcher who forcefully promoted the idea of a Single Market with free movement of capital.goods and labour which pitted various working classes against each other with wage arbitration and stagnation.
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These issues of wage stagnation, regional inequalities and industrial decline are very real but wouldn't it be fair to say Westminster is the cause of these problems rather than Brussels ?

We both know it was the UK Government under Thatcher who decimated trade unions for political purposes, causing massive social upheaval in the North, Midlands and Wales and weakening the collective bargaining power of the working-class which Blair never reversed. Yet other EU countries like Germany and France retain powerful labour unions that ensure its workers are represented on boards and are fairly paid.

It was our political class in Westminster that encouraged the growth of the City of London as a financial capital and did little to incentivise them to invest in our industries and communities instead of riskier short-term casino style banking.

It's Westminster that's done nothing to devolve powers to the regions and cities of a country that's arguably the most centralised in Europe. In Germany, it's not like Berlin is the powerhouse and all the cities are dependent on it, they have many different economic hubs. But in Britain, we've made London the golden goose at the expense of everywhere else - the five poorest areas of Northern Europe are all in the UK whilst London is the wealthiest. Forget Brussels - when can we take back CONTROL from Westminster ?

I understand the Lexiteer argument that Brussels is a rich man's club, and it's enforcement of brutal austerity on Southern Europe for political purposes was utterly appalling. However the idea Lexit will produce a socialist utopia outside the EU doesn't make sense when there are countries IN the EU that are more statist than the UK ! Corbyn implies EU state aid rules possibly prevent us from taking our utilities and railways back under public ownership yet most European countries have nationalised rail. Germany spends more on state aid than we do whilst even Macron the great white hope of neoliberalism nationalised a shipyard jointly owned with an Italian company to protect a domestic firm from losing control. Around 75% of submissions for state aid are accepted by the Commission.

So our membership of the EU is not incompatible with the agenda and ambitions of a Left Government. Whilst I sympathised with the arguments of Lexiteers about democracy - I also couldn't ignore that the most vocal backers of Brexit are the most reactionary, anti-immigrant, hard right forces in Western politics.

People like Farage, Rees Mogg and Johnson cynically exploited arguments about sovereignty and taking back control whilst hiding their true post-Brexit agenda. That'a imposing a disaster capitalist, Singapore on the Thames economic model where they can begin their "bonfire of regulations" and destroy EU worker protections, financial regulations and slash taxes for the elite class they belong to.
 
Technics 1210 said:
As for GFA. I understand your concerns, but it has nothing to do with the EU. The issue is the return of the IRA. We heard of the failed letter bombs, and bombs exploding in Londonderry during the Brexit negotiations. You really want to accept we are being held to ransom by a terrorist organisation?
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The people of Northern Ireland, including the DUP, don't want a hard border on the island, not just the IRA. A third of Northern Ireland’s goods exports are to the Republic - so a hard border would cripple the NI economy and then you will see the peace threatened.

The trouble is by rejecting the Withdrawal Agreement three times, and by rejecting the backstop proposal, they make a hard border more likely.

So it's simple. If you want to avoid the border problem then stay in a Single Market or Customs Union and there won't be any need for new goods checks. Or if you don't want that - then stick the border in the Irish Sea. But the DUP don't want that either !

So the new Brexiteer Tory PM will be in the exact same position as May. They'll find their strategy of "if only we shout at the foreigners more" won't make the problem go away.
 
<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">This is such a haunting photo. Whatever you think about Thanos’ record as overlord of the universe, it's impossible not to feel sorry for him as a person. <a href="https://t.co/Ovaew2UKy3">pic.twitter.com/Ovaew2UKy3</a></p>— Chris Hewitt (@ChrisHewitt) <a href="https://twitter.com/ChrisHewitt/status/1132066472220667904?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">May 24, 2019</a></blockquote>
<script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

:))
 
And damn, things must have taken a really really dark twist when my friend [MENTION=7774]Robert[/MENTION] of all people is thinking of obtaining Irish Citizenship.
 
shaz619 said:
<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">This is such a haunting photo. Whatever you think about Thanos’ record as overlord of the universe, it's impossible not to feel sorry for him as a person. <a href="https://t.co/Ovaew2UKy3">pic.twitter.com/Ovaew2UKy3</a></p>— Chris Hewitt (@ChrisHewitt) <a href="https://twitter.com/ChrisHewitt/status/1132066472220667904?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">May 24, 2019</a></blockquote>
<script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

:))
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:)))
 
Technics 1210 said:
I thought I was clear, No Deal - out of the 4 pillars of the EU. Leave the EU.

So you wouldn't mind a referendum on the type of deal? i.e Destination? Fair enough, but why have remain on the ballot then?

There is nothing wrong in changing people's mind, this is democracy, but what is not democracy is when MPs/Parties refuse to implement a democratic result in hope they change the people's mind before the result is implemented. It's like saying Corbyn wins the GE election, but he cannot walk into Number 10 unless the people have another go and confirm their decision, with the off chance another PM is elected.

Democracy doesn't work like this. If it did, then there would be an other election after Tories formed a coalition with the LDs in 2010, because NO ONE voted for a coalition. In the same way a re-election after 2017, because NO ONE voted for a coalition with the DUP.

Why are you so afraid of a no deal? Doesn't this demonstrate that the great British spirit is actually a facade because people are afraid we cannot stand on our own? Are you really suggesting our survival depends on the EU?

As for GFA. I understand your concerns, but it has nothing to do with the EU. The issue is the return of the IRA. We heard of the failed letter bombs, and bombs exploding in Londonderry during the Brexit negotiations. You really want to accept we are being held to ransom by a terrorist organisation?
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I am afraid of no deal because it will cause a predicted 8% drop in GDP. By comparison the 2008 crash brought about a 2% drop in GDP. 8% isn’t a recession, it is much worse and will bring about profound changes to our society - three million unemployed, mostly in the North. The little land I live in in will see her fisherman go broke and the lovely harbour villages die. The small farmers will go broke too, the price of agricultural land will fall and big agribusiness will hoover up. There will be poverty and more homeless and more will turn to crime which will go undeterred as police services are cut. Maybe the rule of law will fail in some places. The NHS will decline to an emergency service and every kind of social inequality will rise. Racism will become more and more overt and street attacks on BAMEs will increase. Communities will band together for protection and there will be riots as fascist agitators stir the pot.

Eventually we will be unable to afford a nuclear deterrent and Britain will be kicked off the UNSC permanent membership as irrelevant geopolitically.

Overall we will go into permanent national decline and every aspect of British life will get worse.

The GFA is predicated on both Ireland and UK being EU members. If the agreement fails then the paramilitaries will return and my father’s people will suffer anew. A generation of young Irish have grown up in peacetime without feeling that scourge. Proddies and Catholics can walk streets that their parents didn’t dare to. They can date each other without being punishment beaten. The communities have started to come together after centuries of horror. But ancient ill-will can come back fast and a hard border will fracture the peace.

The GFA is the most marvellous thing, a triumph of humanity that gives me hope for the future of our species. If our leaders let it die, they are anti-life.
 
So Mickey Gove wants to upset the apple cart and nip in the back door to Number 10, thwarting Boris once more.
 
James said:
So Mickey Gove wants to upset the apple cart and nip in the back door to Number 10, thwarting Boris once more.
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He is kind of like Littlefinger. The lesser of two evils I think.
 
Robert said:
I am afraid of no deal because it will cause a predicted 8% drop in GDP. By comparison the 2008 crash brought about a 2% drop in GDP. 8% isn’t a recession, it is much worse and will bring about profound changes to our society - three million unemployed, mostly in the North. The little land I live in in will see her fisherman go broke and the lovely harbour villages die. The small farmers will go broke too, the price of agricultural land will fall and big agribusiness will hoover up. There will be poverty and more homeless and more will turn to crime which will go undeterred as police services are cut. Maybe the rule of law will fail in some places. The NHS will decline to an emergency service and every kind of social inequality will rise. Racism will become more and more overt and street attacks on BAMEs will increase. Communities will band together for protection and there will be riots as fascist agitators stir the pot.

Eventually we will be unable to afford a nuclear deterrent and Britain will be kicked off the UNSC permanent membership as irrelevant geopolitically.

Overall we will go into permanent national decline and every aspect of British life will get worse.

The GFA is predicated on both Ireland and UK being EU members. If the agreement fails then the paramilitaries will return and my father’s people will suffer anew. A generation of young Irish have grown up in peacetime without feeling that scourge. Proddies and Catholics can walk streets that their parents didn’t dare to. They can date each other without being punishment beaten. The communities have started to come together after centuries of horror. But ancient ill-will can come back fast and a hard border will fracture the peace.

The GFA is the most marvellous thing, a triumph of humanity that gives me hope for the future of our species. If our leaders let it die, they are anti-life.
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You referring to the same experts who said if we didn't join the euro we'd suffer? Or the same experts who predicted mass job losses and recession if we voted to leave? Project fear again. By the way the GBP crashed from 2.10 to 1.36 after the crash, a bigger drop than after brexit - guess what - were still here.

You are worried we won't be able to afford a nuclear deterent? This country cannot afford policemen and teachers but the number one concern is a nuclear deterent. Let me guess, Russia again.

I think you are still living in the era of the cold war but if you are really worried about the economy how about address how we can increase manufacturing, or how we can attract foreign investment (which we can't do because EU prevents us from lowering Corp tax). Or better yet let's decrease the VAT rate resulting in more money in consumer pockets? Oops can't do that either with the EU. As for fishermen, they already are broke thanks to the EU.

Well it seems to me you have resigned to the fact the UK is indeed subservient to the EU because our survival depends on the EU, and all this talk about British fighting spirit is complete utter nonsense.

As for GFA - just call it what it is - leverage by terrorists.

But you think overturning the 2016 result will make things better when in actual fact it will make the project fear you describe above look like a summer picnic compared to losing faith in democracy and the government.

Like I said, your party will be trying to explain how right-wing parties/ideologies become mainstream (just like your party shares responsibility for resurrecting Farage) and then blame something else but yourselves.
 
Robert said:
He is kind of like Littlefinger. The lesser of two evils I think.
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Boris & Gove -

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Technics 1210 said:
You referring to the same experts who said if we didn't join the euro we'd suffer? Or the same experts who predicted mass job losses and recession if we voted to leave? Project fear again. By the way the GBP crashed from 2.10 to 1.36 after the crash, a bigger drop than after brexit - guess what - were still here.

You are worried we won't be able to afford a nuclear deterent? This country cannot afford policemen and teachers but the number one concern is a nuclear deterent. Let me guess, Russia again.

I think you are still living in the era of the cold war but if you are really worried about the economy how about address how we can increase manufacturing, or how we can attract foreign investment (which we can't do because EU prevents us from lowering Corp tax). Or better yet let's decrease the VAT rate resulting in more money in consumer pockets? Oops can't do that either with the EU. As for fishermen, they already are broke thanks to the EU.

Well it seems to me you have resigned to the fact the UK is indeed subservient to the EU because our survival depends on the EU, and all this talk about British fighting spirit is complete utter nonsense.

As for GFA - just call it what it is - leverage by terrorists.

But you think overturning the 2016 result will make things better when in actual fact it will make the project fear you describe above look like a summer picnic compared to losing faith in democracy and the government.

Like I said, your party will be trying to explain how right-wing parties/ideologies become mainstream (just like your party shares responsibility for resurrecting Farage) and then blame something else but yourselves.
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More and more nations will acquire nukes so we have to have them, or else we rely on others to shield us. Like the EU relies on us and the French. Without them and outside the EU we are reliant on an unreliable USA. We will be the 51st State of Amreeka.

British fighting spirit - you mean like in 1940? When we were backed up by the Canadians, Caribbeans, Africans, Indians and ANZACS. Now we’re not. We will be alone in a very cold world.

Right now foreign investment is leaving due to Brexit.

The EU doesn’t prevent us lowering corporation tax - the Coalition did it.

I made a passionate effort to explain Irish politics but your response shows I have failed. This saddens me.



Cold War Two started a decade ago.
 
Robert said:
More and more nations will acquire nukes so we have to have them, or else we rely on others to shield us. Like the EU relies on us and the French. Without them and outside the EU we are reliant on an unreliable USA. We will be the 51st State of Amreeka.

British fighting spirit - you mean like in 1940? When we were backed up by the Canadians, Caribbeans, Africans, Indians and ANZACS. Now we’re not. We will be alone in a very cold world.

Right now foreign investment is leaving due to Brexit.

The EU doesn’t prevent us lowering corporation tax - the Coalition did it.

I made a passionate effort to explain Irish politics but your response shows I have failed. This saddens me.



Cold War Two started a decade ago.
Click to expand...

The EU does prevent us from lowering Corp tax to that being lower than the level in the EU. UK must seek permission from the EU, this applies to lower VAT too. Not only this the EU have forbid UK lowering the Corp tax in Mays withdrawal deal, because EU knows once UK is out, it can completely undermine the tax breaks in EU and change the flow on money from the EU to the UK.

Your effort in explaining the GFA is not lost. I get it, but your refusal to acknowledge the crux of the matter, the IRA is frustrating. Tell me honestly, if IRA was out the picture complete, the hard border wouldn't be much of an issue would it?

Foreign investment is leaving the UK because there is no certainty on credit meaning businesses cannot plan. A lower GBP is attractive to foreign trade but uncertainty is killing confidence.

Retail sector is being hit hard too, are we going to blame brexit for this? The other point to consider is the Eurozone economy is teetering on recession, including Germany. Who is going to buy our goods if EZ cannot afford them? Single market no good then if we're relying sole on the EZ for a properous economy.

By the way, we already are the 51st state. Thos nukes you are referring to are Amreekan warheads, and require authorisation from the USA before the nukes can be used. So much for soverign defence. We won't be alone. We have 5 eyes. EU is not a member of the 5 eyes.

At the end of the day the longer Remainers delay Exit the wors this country will become. In hindsight had we pulled out 2 years ago we'd be on a recovery path by now.
 
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Results coming out now.

Thus far, Brexit party absolutely killing it, LDs doing very very well. Tories, destroyed.

Long night ahead!
 
Thornbury on BBC election coverage is being very honest about the kicking Labour is about to take and apologetic to her MEPs and candidates. Says Labour will be getting off the fence at last and will push for a second referendum.

Vote up by 3% from last time overall, higher in Remain areas like London.

UKIP facing total collapse.
 
KingKhanWC said:
Sources are saying Tommy Robinson has failed to win a single seat.
Click to expand...

He has no party and is only standing in person. He would need 155k votes to get elected. Won’t happen, thank the Heavens.
 
Mother of God, to quote Ted Hastings - Tories are on 8%.
 
Robert said:
Thornbury on BBC election coverage is being very honest about the kicking Labour is about to take and apologetic to her MEPs and candidates. Says Labour will be getting off the fence at last and will push for a second referendum.

Vote up by 3% from last time overall, higher in Remain areas like London.

UKIP facing total collapse.
Click to expand...

what idiot Thornberry fails to recognise is that Labour leave voters have abandoned the party in this election and to campaign for Remain is signalling to them to stop voting Labour altogether in a GE
 
KingKhanWC said:
We need a general election right now! Jezza for PM will be on the cards!
Click to expand...

If Brexit stands against Tories they will split the right vote. But FPTP will mean they will not get more than fifty seats and a Tory-Brexit Coalition is possible. Scot Nats will take more Labour seats in Scotland. I think another hung Parliament is a distinct possibility.

Tories just absolutely pasted in East of England.....
 
Lib Dems win in London. Labour second, Brexit third.

Tories lose both their MEPs. Down 15% on 2015.

This is seismic!
 
Going more or less as expected so far, with a few tweaks in either direction.

The Brexit Party and the Lib Dems are doing fantastically well. Not too bad from the Greens either.

Embarrassing stuff for Labour, and truly humiliating for the Tories. Looks like the governing party for the whole of this decade is about to finish fourth or even fifth in a national election. Surely that’s never happened before.

Time for Change UK and UKIP to disband. Pathetic stuff from both.
 
Chuka Umunna must be ruing the day he decided to join Change UK!

Meanwhile in the rest of Europe - it is carnage! Right-wing and Green parties making waves!
 
will be a great night for lib dems by looks of things. need to take the bull by the horns and really gear up for the next election with strong policies, will be their best chance ever.

tories deserve this hiding. bunch of slimy careerists. the thought of bojo or raab leading the party is just.... uhhhh. shivers
 
Must say looking at the carnage in the UK and mainland Europe with Farage,Salvini and Le Pen all winning, I'm glad to be where I am. Farages laughing stock Irexit crowd ran a candidate in Dublin with one of Farage's key men and polled less than 1%. Zero right wing parties anywhere near the picture.

To think Farage, Le Pen and Salvini will make up large swathes of the EU, people who actively want it to fail, is frightening.

That said its clear the EU need a course correction. Way too many ordinary people are falling for the mistakes of the past and they need to act, and quickly. If it means slightly tougher migration, so be it. Europe cant continue like this.
 
Down in the SW Brexit +3, Lib Dems +2, LAB -1, Tories -2, UKIP -2 and Molly Scott Cato of the Greens retained her seat.
 
Lots of self serving hyperbole for meaningless elections of an Institution which we're going to exit

70% of the Electorate didn't vote or didn't vote for Hard Remain or Hard Brexit

That is the silent majority

The message this result should send to Tories and Labour is to deliver Brexit and get on with it.
 
Across Europe - big wins for the Nationalists, Liberals and Greens. Big losses for the socialists and centre-right.

At home, the Faragists have hoovered up the entire UKIP vote and a chunk of the Tories.

The parties who stated what they want about Brexit did well. The parties that didn’t went backward. Labour have lost huge chunks of support to the openly Remain parties.
 
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To think that a reactionary, elderly and totally unrepresentative Conservative membership of 120k will soon impose the mendacious and shambling Boris Johnson on the country as Prime Minister is sickening.

However the Premiership will expose Johnson as the snake oil salesman he is. He's been selling an impossible have your cake and eat it Brexit deal and so when he inevitably fails and presides over a disasterous No Deal Brexit, he, the Conservative Party and his hard Brexiteer crew will have to own it.

The question is whether Conservative moderates would be willing to bring down a No Deal Government in the event of a Confidence Vote. Philip Hammond has hinting at such especially since Parliament has explicitly rejected No Deal.
 
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Markhor said:
To think that a reactionary, elderly and totally unrepresentative Conservative membership of 120k will soon impose the mendacious and shambling Boris Johnson on the country as Prime Minister is sickening.

However the Premiership will expose Johnson as the snake oil salesman he is. He's been selling an impossible have your cake and eat it Brexit deal and so when he inevitably fails and presides over a disasterous No Deal Brexit, he, the Conservative Party and his hard Brexiteer crew will have to own it.

The question is whether Conservative moderates would be willing to bring down a No Deal Government in the event of a Confidence Vote. Philip Hammond has hinting at such especially since Parliament has explicitly rejected No Deal.
Click to expand...

Is there any possiblity of a general election? The people did not vote in Boris and imo they will reject this clown.
 
KingKhanWC said:
Is there any possiblity of a general election? The people did not vote in Boris and imo they will reject this clown.
Click to expand...

Yes if Boris calls for one to give himself a mandate or if as I mentioned, pro-Remain Tories bring down the Government in a confidence vote if Boris pursues No Deal and crashes us out of the EU.
 
The recent “inherited” prime ministerships have not gone well so far. Gordon Brown and Theresa May were both totally unmitigated disasters. I can’t see our next leader being much better given that they will have to immediately pick up the hot potato of Brexit.
 
Markhor said:
To think that a reactionary, elderly and totally unrepresentative Conservative membership of 120k will soon impose the mendacious and shambling Boris Johnson on the country as Prime Minister is sickening.

However the Premiership will expose Johnson as the snake oil salesman he is. He's been selling an impossible have your cake and eat it Brexit deal and so when he inevitably fails and presides over a disasterous No Deal Brexit, he, the Conservative Party and his hard Brexiteer crew will have to own it.

The question is whether Conservative moderates would be willing to bring down a No Deal Government in the event of a Confidence Vote. Philip Hammond has hinting at such especially since Parliament has explicitly rejected No Deal.
Click to expand...

A No Deal bill will fail in the Commons as the One Nation Tories vote against it. At that point Johnson will have to go back to the country in a No Deal vs Remain referendum. Remain will win, then Johnson will be undermined and there will have to be a GE.
 
James said:
The recent “inherited” prime ministerships have not gone well so far. Gordon Brown and Theresa May were both totally unmitigated disasters. I can’t see our next leader being much better given that they will have to immediately pick up the hot potato of Brexit.
Click to expand...


I rated Brown. Prudent, detailed, didn’t start any wars.
 
Loving how the Remainers are claiming victory in last weeks elections.

Remainer Logic : Man City did not win the Premier League, it was London, because if you add up the points of all London clubs, London wins!

Desperation knows no bounds!
 
Technics 1210 said:
Loving how the Remainers are claiming victory in last weeks elections.

Remainer Logic : Man City did not win the Premier League, it was London, because if you add up the points of all London clubs, London wins!

Desperation knows no bounds!
Click to expand...

The sports analogy is rather banal.

The point many remainders are making is that more people combined voted for parties that are traditionally remain than against. All the leavers voted largely for one political party.

It also important to remember that there was a voter turn out of 37% because the vast majority don't care about meps. They are not relevant when it comes to deciding what brexit will look like and how it will occur.
 
barah_admi said:
The sports analogy is rather banal.

The point many remainders are making is that more people combined voted for parties that are traditionally remain than against. All the leavers voted largely for one political party.

It also important to remember that there was a voter turn out of 37% because the vast majority don't care about meps. They are not relevant when it comes to deciding what brexit will look like and how it will occur.
Click to expand...

If you add up Brexit and Tory party then there are more leavers not forgetting there are leavers with those who voted labour.

You can call the analogy banal but that's exactly how remainers are spinning the result.

Based on the hard leave and hard remain parties (Brexit vs LibDems), Leave won.

But if the turnout is 37%, then remainers should stop the spin because remainers fail to accept the EU referendum result which had a larger turn out, infact, the largest ever Democratic exercise in British history.
 
In other news, Alistair Campbell sacked from Labour party for voting LibDems! Lol! Meanwhile some Tory MPs voted for the Brexit party and still have their jobs!
 
Technics 1210 said:
If you add up Brexit and Tory party then there are more leavers not forgetting there are leavers with those who voted labour.

You can call the analogy banal but that's exactly how remainers are spinning the result.

Based on the hard leave and hard remain parties (Brexit vs LibDems), Leave won.

But if the turnout is 37%, then remainers should stop the spin because remainers fail to accept the EU referendum result which had a larger turn out, infact, the largest ever Democratic exercise in British history.
Click to expand...

But there are many Tory Remainers who voted Conservative.

I think the only thing to take away from all this is that Britain remains divided and that all options remain in play.
 
IMMY69 said:
But there are many Tory Remainers who voted Conservative.

I think the only thing to take away from all this is that Britain remains divided and that all options remain in play.
Click to expand...

True, which is why if there is any comparison, then it should be between the Hard Leave party (Brexit Party), and hard Remain party (LDs).

Also agree on the divisions, which is why another referendum would further cause division. I think the best solution is to Brexit, then work on uniting the country. We could be better off economically sooner than we think which will mitigate majority of the concerns for remain, on the other hard, it could be a total disaster, and the country then unites for remain.
 
There’s no ‘Hard Remain’ except a few ultras who want the € and Schengen. There’s just Remain, which is status quo. But if we Leave and go back in we will have to accept Hard Remain which even I would baulk at. We have the best deal right now.
 
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Robert said:
There’s no ‘Hard Remain’ except a few ultras who want the € and Schengen. There’s just Remain, which is status quo. But if we Leave and go back in we will have to accept Hard Remain which even I would baulk at. We have the best deal right now.
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No, I am talking about the elections last week. *Hard* in terms of their message on EU and their position on the EU. Brexit Party is hard Leave, clearly they wnt the UK to leave, and every person voting for Brexit Party wants to leave, and LDs was hard Remain, since their message is, Stop Brexit, and every person voting for LDs wants to remain. Labour/Tories was a mixture of leave and remain.
 

:yk3

Also is it fair to say those who voted leave and put this country in this much turmoil are basically thick or have some type of mental deformity
 
While I am not a fan of Boris, the case against Boris is a joke and an attempt to overturn Brexit, and at worst, will hinder his ambitions of becoming a PM.

1. All politicians lie.
2. Why aren't any of the Remainers who lied not appearing in court? Like George Osborne?
3. Boris is actually correct, we do pay £350 Million a week. However once the rebates kick in, the figure changes.

It's a private hearing anyway, but none the less, a joke.
 
shaz619 said:

:yk3

Also is it fair to say those who voted leave and put this country in this much turmoil are basically thick or have some type of mental deformity
Click to expand...
Interesting. A 6 month jail sentence for Boris will be mighty satisfying for the vast majority of the British public.
 
It has now come to light that Campbell has over a significant period of time

used antisemitic tropes
downplayed antisemitism

All of the people who've been trying to smear Corbyn and Labour are now remarkably quiet.

It's almost like some hypocrites were actually so contemptible that they were weaponising antisemitism simply for political purposes.
 
IMMY69 said:
So where does that leave Brexit?
Surely another Referendum heading our way?

Honestly, I can't see any other way forward from this..
Click to expand...

We leave the EU on 30 Oct. Unless there is a GE or second referendum, the EU will not extend the deadline.

The Tory Govt won’t call a GE as they will be devastated, while Corbyn says any Brexit deal must be put to the people in a second ref without option to Remain, so Brexit is still on.
 
Robert said:
We leave the EU on 30 Oct. Unless there is a GE or second referendum, the EU will not extend the deadline.

The Tory Govt won’t call a GE as they will be devastated, while Corbyn says any Brexit deal must be put to the people in a second ref without option to Remain, so Brexit is still on.
Click to expand...

All true but my point was that the main party that backs remain and a second referendum is actually leading in this pole... somewhat surprising.
 
IMMY69 said:
All true but my point was that the main party that backs remain and a second referendum is actually leading in this pole... somewhat surprising.
Click to expand...

I think it has more to do with clear messaging. LDs and BP are in the lead because people are clear what they stand for - not the internecine Tory warfare over hard vs soft Brexit, or the doublethink triangulation by Labour.

Due to FPTP Labour would have most MPs but be well short of a majority, while LDs would have 75 MPs and BP only 5 or so.
 
Protest votes if anything.

Now imagine if the Brexit Party was running in the GE election, these latest poll result would be different!
 
Technics 1210 said:
Protest votes if anything.

Now imagine if the Brexit Party was running in the GE election, these latest poll result would be different!
Click to expand...

The polls assumes a GE tomorrow with BP running.

Though they might only stand against Remain Tories in Leave seats to make a point.
 
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