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famebox

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Sep 11, 2011
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Wow!! How did this happen so soon? Did you keep hammering a tree instead of a cricket ball? Feeling bad for you mate.
 
That's horrible, just reaffirms my belief that TRDs are over dried.
 
That is bad. You sure the balls were not those cheap rock hard ones as they will break up any cricket bat no matter what the condition it is in.

Otherwise I will say you were very unlucky. Willow is natural so it can break any time. I have had My TRD for over 6 months - apart from a few surface cracks I have no problems with it.
 
Few questions;

Did you peel off the scuff sheet starting from the bottom?

Did you ooil the bat when you got it?

Which balls did you use?

You made good use of the bat by the way, hence, this happened I'd say. Won't really blame the bat to be honest. This issue does not have anything to do with dryness of the bat, it cracked from the grains which opened up by the use.
 
You have seen it how straight evenly balanced grains it had and i oiled it & start knocking in(7-8 hours) & in nets i used quiet old cricket ball(Club Level Cricket Ball) just to check out if any "seam marks" appers. I aslo applied "Anti scuff sheet" for extra protection & never did i took the sheet of. No seem marks were appered even playing with new ball.... "ping" of the bat was unique you always felt when you hit the sweetspot. One think the seller of the bat sayed to me was "this bat will give you performance but it won't last long cause of tied grains"
 
The question is how does the bat play currently?

It can be fixed somewhat... sand the face down until it is even and there are no splinters, then get the bat pressed again, (I'd get it pressed 2 times) should be alright.

Why is there that brown/red stuff all over the face? Is it oil? surely not cherries.
 
bigfan said:
The question is how does the bat play currently?

It can be fixed somewhat... sand the face down until it is even and there are no splinters, then get the bat pressed again, (I'd get it pressed 2 times) should be alright.

Why is there that brown/red stuff all over the face? Is it oil? surely not cherries.
Click to expand...
This bat can't be used no more,, every single ball gets huge piece of wood off from the willow! You can't get it fixed no more,, i contacted Millichamp & Hall if the can fix it for me and responce i got back was "Having seen the first photo is all I need. Unfortunately that is way beyond any kind of repair job". Brown/red coulour of cricket ball.
 
This sort of damage happens if you dont know how to prepare the bat properly or you over do it.
I can clearly see the bat was overoiled and you also over done with knocking in. You killed the performance/ping when you knocked in too much. CA plus trd is pre knocked/ready to play and it does not need 7-8 hours knocking in with a mallet. It only requires 5-10 mins knocking in the toe, round off the edges if u like and apply the scuff sheet that came with the bat and just lightly play in the bat against throwdowns using quality old cricket balls.
 
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I must admit it's one of the best bats I've picked up in a while.
 
Knightrider said:
This sort of damage happens if you dont know how to prepare the bat properly or you over do it.
I can clearly see the bat was overoiled and you also over done with knocking in. You killed the performance/ping when you knocked in too much. CA plus trd is pre knocked/ready to play and it does not need 7-8 hours knocking in with a mallet. It only requires 5-10 mins knocking in the toe, round off the edges if u like and apply the scuff sheet that came with the bat and just lightly play in the bat against throwdowns using quality old cricket balls.
Click to expand...

I agree with Knightrider, you have over done the knocking and oiling so it was bond to break.

James Laver in his interview with PakPassion said that bat can be over knocked.
 
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Looks dry as a bone. Bats shouldn't crack like that, that said delamination (which this may be a severe case of) is very common on dry bats as there is less sap to hold the bat together.

I'm guessing the willow fibres were torn off when you removed the scuff sheet? Did it give off a hollowish sound before removing the sheet?
 
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When i bought this bat & once i had it the first thing i did before knocking/oiling was that i went to nets and did some throw downs(old ball) after a while i had a look at the face of the blade and there were "deep seam marks". Any one who knows knocking in process would understand/accepts that deep seam marks means bat hasn't been knocked in. Mine was not "pre knocked/ ready to play"i can assure you that. The reason why i knocked in for 7 hours is i start knocking in with very gentle knocks cause face of the balde was very "soft" and keep using in the nets to check out the "seam marks"(knocking process). I did not over oiled just a light coat of oil to the front, edges, toe and back of the bat blade. This is exactly how it looked when scuff sheet was on the blade so taking of the scuff sheet had no impact on willow. After reading few comments i think for some of you its hard to accept that even very good bats can be "cracked completely" as in my case it did. I know how much of oiling/knocking in is required & so all of you cause its not a rocket science. It wasn't "over oiled" neither "over done with knocking in" & Knightrider i wish you had seen the ping of the bat once it was knocked in(7 hours) you would have seen how a live the bat was
 
I'm with you famebox, am over knocked in bat becomes dead. But doesn't disintegrate. The fibres crack and come apart in this manner because of a lack of moisture and sap holding them together.

Only way to repair this is by refacing it.
 
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Cover Drive said:
I agree with Knightrider, you have over done the knocking and oiling so it was bond to break.

James Laver in his interview with PakPassion said that bat can be over knocked.
Click to expand...
Knocking in just replicates the ball hitting the bat, yes it's possible to do it to a degree where the hard surface layer of the bat becomes too deep and performance decreases. But it isn't something that will make the bat fall apart.
 
02thoeva said:
Knocking in just replicates the ball hitting the bat, yes it's possible to do it to a degree where the hard surface layer of the bat becomes too deep and performance decreases. But it isn't something that will make the bat fall apart.
Click to expand...

So this breakage is due to low internal mositure of the willow then?

Let's suppose if OP had further oiled it can we say the willow would have gotten more moistured?
 
Oiling a bat only protects the moisture content of the willow, not add to it methinks.
 
SempreSami said:
Oiling a bat only protects the moisture content of the willow, not add to it methinks.
Click to expand...

spot on.

The bat is too dry.

OP did the right thing- seam marks means willow is soft- needs knocking in.

DOn't know if it makes you feel any better OP - nothing could have saved this bat.

reminds me of the other TRD that split half way up the bat. that user was no rookie either. Also the bat grains on that bat were similar to this one as well - very dry splinters.
 
Maybe you can over knock a bat (Maybe, even if James laver said it im hesitant given so many bats get better over time).

BUT there is no way overknocking could lead to that. That is clearly a dryness issue (which also means the bat is not overoiled like some people suspect), and also I strongly suspect the sleeve/anti scuff was poorly removed. When it was remove as well (as often), the bat would of been really dry and you either really stuffed up the removal, or used it dry which made the wood even softer and somewhat at a stage where you can press down on it so to speak, and eventually it just cracked.

The only possible repair is pigskin, it is too deep too sand
 
Actually when we oil the bat the oil does not soak into the timber increasing the moisture content, that does not happen.

When we oil it just prevents the bat from drying out.
 
my question is, what is the time frame between the pictures.

it seems like maybe a year or two from the pictures taken. also from the amount of cherries on the face on the bat it looks like a wet ball was often used. majority of balls no longer make a lot of cherries on bats anymore unless the ball is wet from the outfield.

that amount of moisture will also ruin a cricket bat. i scored over 1000 runs with my Laver and it never had 1 single red mark on it. the ones it did make would eventually wear off.

am i close or way off the mark here guys?
 
yeah, looking at the pics again the bat in the second set of pics looks many many runs older than the first set. maybe 1 or 2 seasons older and would say you didnt look after your bat very well. at the first sign of cracking you should of taped it with fibre tape to prevent any more cracking.
 
Sorry for late responce Hammer but you might not belive it i used it only about 10-15 times,, frame time between pictures are 9 weeks and thats when it was completely damaged,,, i had red color outdoor ball and it was getting dark and i couldn't see the ball so i putt some white tape on the ball and after session when i took the tape off some color was gone off from the ball and using same ball next time caused some "cherries color on it"....
 
but the question is how did you remove the scuff sheet from edge accross or toe and upwards?
 
OKay is that how you removed it if so that bat was very, very dry
 
That's how i removed it and successful,,,,,,and stop saying it was dry i measured the wood with digital moisture meter and it was 10% ,,,, anyone who knows wood moisture 9-12% is ideal for cricket bats.
 
When did you measure it with a moisture meter? 10% in that bat is a little strange reading man.
 
Zeusky its seem you have nooo knowledge what so ever about english willow moisture if you had you would not say "its strange reading",,,i measured it before applying Anti scuff.....littlemaster64 i took off the Anti scuff cause bat was badly damged while i had Anti scuff on it.....
 
famebox said:
Zeusky its seem you have nooo knowledge what so ever about english willow moisture if you had you would not say "its strange reading",,,i measured it before applying Anti scuff.....littlemaster64 i took off the Anti scuff cause bat was badly damged while i had Anti scuff on it.....
Click to expand...

Maybe--- but 10% reading for that dry a willow seemed a bit strange...lol
 
Not sure if this was asked or answered earlier but did knock the bat with scuff sheet applied on it?
 
famebox said:
That's how i removed it and successful,,,,,,and stop saying it was dry i measured the wood with digital moisture meter and it was 10% ,,,, anyone who knows wood moisture 9-12% is ideal for cricket bats.
Click to expand...
I don't care what your moisture meter says. The only reason for a bat to crack and delaminate in such a manner is due to low moisture.
 
@ Cover Drive, i did knock it in and then applied Anti Scuff Sheet,,,, @02thoeva it doesn't matter what you care about the fact is people like you expect perfection from all willows rather then see reality, 10% is ideal for bats despite having good moisture it was broken in such manner,,,accept it and get over
 
So the point of this thread is what?

And no, I don't expect perfection from all willows. But it's a known fact that Pakistani manufacturers have been drying their willow more than other manufacturers to obtain larger profiles, with that comes structural weaknesses. The English brands avoid Pakistani manufacturers at all costs because of their quality.
 
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02thoeva said:
The English brands avoid Pakistani manufacturers at all costs because of their quality.
Click to expand...

That is simply not true. The only reason English brands have avoided Pakistani manufacturers is the war on terror!

Westerners are scared to travel to Pakistan and rightly so in my opinion. It is not easy to get travel insurance for the people who are willing to come to the land of the pure and the insurance is expensive if they are able to get it. Marine and goods in transit is also expensive due to the general lawlessness in the country and the terror threat. It has never been the country of choice for western business people at the best of times with no alcohol or evening entertainment on offer but in the eighties most big brands equipments were manufactured in Pakistan due to the superior products at cheaper prices. Now with India providing similar products and evening entertainment a plenty westerners can't keep away.

Eventually though the tide will turn as peace returns to our terror ravaged nation. English brands will return with a vengeance as labour prices rise in India and they realise that superior products can be acquired again at cheaper prices in Pakistan. If they are worried about quality control or ethical manufacture they will be able to send their people to check without concern.

Pakistani manufacturing companies in general are going through a temporary slump but Inshallah the future is bright.
 
The only thing the Pakistani makers are better (and cheaper) at is balls. Pretty much every brand buys their balls from Pakistan. Bats and soft goods is another story...
 
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I don't work in the cricket industry but I work in manufacturing for an American organisation based in the UK that manufactures products worldwide.
 
AamerM said:
I don't work in the cricket industry but I work in manufacturing for an American organisation based in the UK that manufactures products worldwide.
Click to expand...
If it's an American organisation then the war on terror may be a concern.

But for English cricket bat companies the concern is more about the quality of the workmanship and bats breaking.
 
why don't they send people to check on the quality? Because of the risk to their personnel?

It's incredible that people sitting thousands of miles away can have an opinion on workmanship and product quality without ever venturing out of their armchairs.
 
AamerM said:
why don't they send people to check on the quality? Because of the risk to their personnel?

It's incredible that people sitting thousands of miles away can have an opinion on workmanship and product quality without ever venturing out of their armchairs.
Click to expand...
You can check the quality of a cricket bat just by having it in your hand.

The Indian samples from SS, Sondhi and SG are significantly better. So why bother sending someone there at great cost to the company to sit and work with the Pakistani guys, when you can get what you need from the Indians?

It speaks volumes when Boom Boom, a brand run by Pakistani's, with Pakistani origins and heritage, switched their production for international markets (where quality is demanded) to India.
 
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02thoeva said:
The only thing the Pakistani makers are better (and cheaper) at is balls. Pretty much every brand buys their balls from Pakistan. Bats and soft goods is another story...
Click to expand...

In my opinion Pakistani bats are at least equal to Indian bats.

I concede that Indian softs are better but this is mainly due to their ability to import finer materials at lower cost due to the bulk contracts they have with the UK brands.
 
02thoeva said:
You can check the quality of a cricket bat just by having it in your hand.

The Indian samples from SS, Sondhi and SG are significantly better. So why bother sending someone there at great cost to the company to sit and work with the Pakistani guys, when you can get what you need from the Indians?

It speaks volumes when Boom Boom, a brand run by Pakistani's, with Pakistani origins and heritage, switched their production for international markets (where quality is demanded) to India.
Click to expand...

if pakistani manufacturers laid on some dancing girls and a few magnums of champagne and arranged to meet anywhere but Pakistan they might attract some foreign contracts.

I expect Boom Boom have a white english guy as their business manager / procurer.

Boom Boom are probably also trying to protect their brand identity. Btw they go to great pains to tell the world they are a UK company so won't thank you for calling them "a brand run by Pakistanis"
 
AamerM said:
In my opinion Pakistani bats are at least equal to Indian bats.

I concede that Indian softs are better but this is mainly due to their ability to import finer materials at lower cost due to the bulk contracts they have with the UK brands.
Click to expand...
Their handles, finishing, stickers, grips are behind the Indians in my opinion. Performance there's little difference. Question marks for me over the durability of the Pakistani bats due to dry willow and super thin handles.
 
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I respect your opinion even though I may not agree with it.

Let's leave it there shall we? Seasons greetings to all that are celebrating.
 
02thoeva said:
It speaks volumes when Boom Boom, a brand run by Pakistani's, with Pakistani origins and heritage, switched their production for international markets (where quality is demanded) to India.
Click to expand...

A lot of Boom Boom stuff is still made by Ihsan in Pakistan.

Boom Boom is not solely being runed by Pakistani's, the owner/CEO etc is Pakistani origin but many other employees in company are not from Pakistan, for example Boom Boom commercial manager Paul Nash who have worked at Adidas, set up Asics in UK and Gunn & Moore, here is his interview;

http://www.pakpassion.net/ppforum/showthread.php?t=137690&highlight=shirts
 
Every Boom Boom employee who I've met at the tradeshows (besides Paul) are of Pakistani origin, Paul joined Boom Boom in March. They had switched production to SS prior to then.

All their UK adult bats and soft equipment which I've seen is made in India.
 
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If you hypothetically speaking had a purely business decision of where to make 6,000 bats a year, where would you make them CD and Aamer?
 
02thoeva said:
If you hypothetically speaking had a purely business decision of where to make 6,000 bats a year, where would you make them CD and Aamer?
Click to expand...

If it was me then I would get them made in Pakistan by likes of CA/AM and maybe MB Malik.

I believe cost would be less in Pakistan and one can get a top quality bat made by them too! CA/AM etc export quality stuff is very good and I'd say as good as Indian counterpart if not better.

Thats my two cents...
 
Pakistan if the company(s) producing the goods will guarantee the delivery and quality.

Otherwise UK.
 
From my experience, I have found Pakistani bats to be slightly better than Indian bats which I have used of my team mates.

Even for softs I'd stick with Pakistan for example MB Malik (although I would use better velcro strap for gloves).
 
I would like them as cheap as possible and labour is significantly cheaper in Pakistan.

Most Indian manufacturers would struggle with that sort of quantity with their other commitments without compromising quality.

CNC machines in the UK could churn that size of order out at relatively cheap cost I would think.
 
AamerM said:
I would like them as cheap as possible and labour is significantly cheaper in Pakistan.
Click to expand...

Despite India have significantly higher number of labour work force as compared to Pakistan but still Pakistan is cheaper than India.

AamerM said:
Most Indian manufacturers would struggle with that sort of quantity with their other commitments without compromising quality.
Click to expand...

Exactly!

AamerM said:
CNC machines in the UK could churn that size of order out at relatively cheap cost I would think.
Click to expand...

I don't think its that cheap, Tom if you don't mind sharing can you tell how much it is to get a bat made by CNC in UK?
 
AamerM said:
I would like them as cheap as possible and labour is significantly cheaper in Pakistan.

Most Indian manufacturers would struggle with that sort of quantity with their other commitments without compromising quality.

CNC machines in the UK could churn that size of order out at relatively cheap cost I would think.
Click to expand...
Okay - I'll give you an idea of the difference in prices:

£61 - Pakistan
£65 - India
£85 - UK CNC'd

I ordered 6,000 of a mix of grades. Sent 4,000 lower grades to India with 2,000 done in the UK.

I made a solely business decision, Pakistan just wasn't good enough quality.
 
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02thoeva said:
Okay - I'll give you an idea of the difference in prices:

£61 - Pakistan
£65 - India
£85 - UK CNC'd

I ordered 6,000 of a mix of grades. Sent 4,000 lower grades to India with 2,000 done in the UK.

I made a solely business decision, Pakistan just wasn't good enough quality.
Click to expand...

Cheers for the pricing mate.

When you say Pakistan was not good enough on what basis you and your company made this decision? Based on quality you saw in UK or based on your experience in Pakistan factory in Sialkot or based on people views or based on workmanship?
 
Based on the quality of the samples received. Needed a consistent shape, great finish and guaranteed quality.
 
Unfortunately Pakistani companies take a little bit of managing.

Were they aware of potential size of order when submitting the samples?

£61 is like 8500pkr and you can get quality bats for that particularly when ordering at that quantity.
 
They were aware we were an Internationally famous brand - and should've known that there could have been a decent order.

I hadn't the time to micromanage an outfit. The Indian and English companies got the samples right 1st time, so they got the order.
 
Fair enough. I hope it won't deter you from considering Pakistani companies in the future though as there are some decent ones out there and I hope the order goes/went well.
 
It doesn't deter me, as I said - we used them for balls. I'll happily throw Pakistani makers into the mix should I need manufacturers again.

The current quality of bats isn't good enough, and that's the main reason as to why no UK brand uses them currently. It's unfortunate, as without the investment, knowledge and research from UK batmakers it makes it's all the more difficult to move forward.

I resigned from that company in March and have had a career change, which is one of the reasons why I can be so open in my discussions now.
 
Hey Tom,

Quick question: what sets the Indian bat makers per se a notch ahead of the Pakistani ones? I know we have already discussed the willow drying issue. Is there anything else?
 
The finishing and handle quality. These are 2 things UK brands look for, and unfortunately Pakistan are behind.

Also SS and SG as they become more mechanised are bringing great uniformity to their bats, another thing a large company looks for. As a Production Manager you want 1,000 bats to look exactly the same on the shelf.
 
Interesting points; just to add a note here and we have had fleeting discussions about this here: some of us have noticed that many of the bats (SH) have different sizes. I don't remember where I had put in those measurements (maybe CD can help) but we found that even GM bats have different sizes (not a whole lot of difference though) among the same bat models; but these are all made by CNC right? So there should be more uniformity I feel.
 
The GM's should be the same size. But you're right, sizes do vary slightly from brand to brand. And also within brands. We had 3 manufacturers, so it gets problematic.

Uniformity in profile and size isn't easy to achieve when handmaking bats. Which is fine if you're a guy who makes a few bats and sells direct. But when you have 2 bats looking different on a shelf next to each other, it looks bad.
 
02thoeva said:
The finishing and handle quality. These are 2 things UK brands look for, and unfortunately Pakistan are behind.

Also SS and SG as they become more mechanised are bringing great uniformity to their bats, another thing a large company looks for. As a Production Manager you want 1,000 bats to look exactly the same on the shelf.
Click to expand...

Although I have heard not only you but tons of other people complain about Pakistani handles but since I got into cricket equipments bats etc I have never seen any Pakistani bat breakage around handle or due to handle while I have seen couple of SS and SG break but never any Pakistani.

Also I have seen/owned nearly all Pakistani brand bats I personally haven't felt handle quality to be poor.

They are definitely thinner than some UK brand handles but I don't think you refer to thickness when talking about handle being poor etc, do you ?
 
02thoeva said:
I resigned from that company in March and have had a career change, which is one of the reasons why I can be so open in my discussions now.
Click to expand...

If you don't mind me asking can you tell me if you are still keen and interested in pursing a career in Cricket field?

Didn't you have a brilliant stint in your former company? I always thought you loved your job, meeting and supply bats to world top players is a dream come true for passionate cricket follower...
 
Cover Drive said:
If you don't mind me asking can you tell me if you are still keen and interested in pursing a career in Cricket field?

Didn't you have a brilliant stint in your former company? I always thought you loved your job, meeting and supply bats to world top players is a dream come true for passionate cricket follower...
Click to expand...
I loved my job. But towards the end, I didn't like where it was going.

And I'm happy drawing and designing graphics for a travel agency at the moment. A career change, but significantly more chilled and less hectic.
 
Cover Drive said:
Although I have heard not only you but tons of other people complain about Pakistani handles but since I got into cricket equipments bats etc I have never seen any Pakistani bat breakage around handle or due to handle while I have seen couple of SS and SG break but never any Pakistani.

Also I have seen/owned nearly all Pakistani brand bats I personally haven't felt handle quality to be poor.

They are definitely thinner than some UK brand handles but I don't think you refer to thickness when talking about handle being poor etc, do you ?
Click to expand...
The bats I had used cork instead of rubber in the handle, it's cheaper to do that - but rubber is the best shock absorber used in handles so I prefer that to be used. Some weren't spliced totally down the spine and lacked uniformity between bats. The handles are a lot thinner with the binding used looking cheap and tacky.

There probably isn't a huge performance difference between the 2. But the Indian brands have the attention to detail, which is what the UK market demands.
 
02thoeva said:
I loved my job. But towards the end, I didn't like where it was going.

And I'm happy drawing and designing graphics for a travel agency at the moment. A career change, but significantly more chilled and less hectic.
Click to expand...

Fair enough, thanks for sharing that I appreciate it.

I do see your website from time-to-time and I must say it is brilliant and what you're doing is indeed awesome.

02thoeva said:
The bats I had used cork instead of rubber in the handle, it's cheaper to do that - but rubber is the best shock absorber used in handles so I prefer that to be used. Some weren't spliced totally down the spine and lacked uniformity between bats. The handles are a lot thinner with the binding used looking cheap and tacky.

There probably isn't a huge performance difference between the 2. But the Indian brands have the attention to detail, which is what the UK market demands.
Click to expand...

I agree with you to some extent.

Not all Pakistani bats have cork used instead of rubber, see below is AM handle.

DSC05956.jpg


However, I'm not too sure but is there a handle which is consisted of cork and rubber? Such as this;

photo4-13.jpg


Gray Nicolls bats have cork rather than rubber too, here is picture of Gray Nicolls handle (This bat was particularly made in UK, confirmed it by Alex);

photo2-14.jpg


Below are two handles, right one is MB Malik Limited Edition while left one is Custom Made Gray Nicolls Oblivion Limited Edition;

photo1-12.jpg
 
Buddy after looking at the pictures it shows that the bat was over oiled and anti scurf sheet was applied to it before the oil was naturally dried and absorbed by the willow. Secondly, the bat was kept in sunlight or in a warm room without any moisture content. These factors must have dried the willow. When the anti scurf sheet was applied the glue from the sheet and the the layer coated with the oil (which should have been absorbed by the willow) got stuck and this happened.
Overall, the bat is usable. Need machine sanding and little oiling afterwards. It will not cost you more than PKR 1,000 to do so.
 
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