Can Dale Steyn ever match the greatness of Wasim Akram?

[hussain123]

Another factor that should seal the deal for Steyn....

Here I won't take Akram's stats cos he was in a weak batting team and its hard to deduce anything from it.

Bowlers control a lot of test match results but they are dependent on their batsmen too. Can't deny that.

So let's compare Steyn with McGrath on matches lost (since both teams had good batting lineups over the years):

Steyn averages 34 when SA loses.
McGrath averages 23 when Australia loses.

Both sides have quality batting but look at how one team is dependent on Steyn and how he delivers over the years.

Steyn averages 16 when SA wins.
McGrath averages 19 when Australia wins.

Steyn averages 20 when SA wins or draws.
McGrath averages 21 when Australia wins or draws.

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/en...=2;template=results;type=bowling;view=innings

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/en...=2;template=results;type=bowling;view=innings

And I think this should seal it when it comes to Steyn's impact.

Has steyn ever won test match, when his side is bundled less than 200? In wasim case, that was a norm especially in overseas matches and the reason I feel for his not so legendary average in australia n sa among many other factors,

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

Whole lot of factors, sif.You are forgetting a while back, with kallis in the wings, they were one of the most formidable batting units in the world, if not the most.And they were always had a lethal pack attack especially in their own conditions.Not to mention, their top class fielding to complement their bowlers often than not.wasim missed on many of these luxuries steyn has.

I know bro.

Its because of all factors...there is a big discussion.

See post #719 where Steyn vs McGrath impact is compared when both had quality batting lineups.

McGrath consistently does well win or lose. And he is very impactful no doubt.

But Steyn has to do well. If he doesn't do well, SA most likely loses but inspite of that, he has made SA win tons of games and series. SA has lost only 4 series since his debut.

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

Has steyn ever won test match, when his side is bundled less than 200? In wasim case, that was a norm especially in overseas matches and the reason I feel for his not so legendary average in australia n sa among many other factors,

Ok exclude that.

Look at Steyn's average in wins/draws in ASIA and compare it to Wasim.

POst #717 - Image 5 and 6

Steyn wins even there bro.

 

[hussain123]

Ok exclude that.

Look at Steyn's average in wins/draws in ASIA and compare it to Wasim.

POst #717 - Image 5 and 6

Steyn wins even there bro.

And how much did the batters contribute to steyns cause? You are forgetting putting runs on the scoreboard is as vital as picking wickets.bcoz, that is what gives you license to go all over the opposition.believe me, pakistani batting used to blow hot n cold evrn in asian conditions.i think you r underestimating how bad pakistan batting can go?

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

And how much did the batters contribute to steyns cause? You are forgetting putting runs on the scoreboard is as vital as picking wickets.bcoz, that is what gives you license to go all over the opposition.believe me, pakistani batting used to blow hot n cold evrn in asian conditions.i think you r underestimating how bad pakistan batting can go?

I am not underestimating it bro.

I know Akram had to deal with horrendous batting and slip catching.

But in Asia Pak batting was good. Plus Akram had a great bowlers to bowl in tandem with along with good spinners.

What did Steyn have in Asia? No spinners. Morkel only.

See this stats.

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/en...5;spanval1=span;template=results;type=batting

Pakistan is No 2 in batting average in Asia from 1985.

Next only to India.

So batting is not a problem for Pakistan in Asia and there Steyn does better against Akram too.

 

[hussain123]

I am not underestimating it bro.

I know Akram had to deal with horrendous batting and slip catching.

But in Asia Pak batting was good. Plus Akram had a great bowlers to bowl in tandem with along with good spinners.

What did Steyn have in Asia? No spinners. Morkel only.

See this stats.

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/en...5;spanval1=span;template=results;type=batting

Pakistan is No 2 in batting average in Asia from 1985.

Next only to India.

So batting is not a problem for Pakistan in Asia and there Steyn does better against Akram too.

I am sure that batting average has lot to do with feasting upon some hopeless bowling on flattest of wickets.They usually went missing against quality bowling even in asia.Their is a reason why many cricketing experts rate wasim as the most outstanding pacer of his generation.

 

[Stallion__]

Well, this post of yours has make me feel better than any of previous posts, you actually have make an attempt to see the other side of picture.

I acknowledge its not the most accurate point and I think I mentioned it somewhere too. If not, ok.

But point is this...you can't use a stat where you are not sure of its accuracy (even if the reasons are understandable) and then dispute my disagreement with it. The stat is not reliable. My bowling attack argument was only to counter that.

If its not accurate enough, drop it and move ahead. I am NOT bringing bowling attack as a major issue. It was only a point in relation to yours. Don't take it as a main point when I never mentioned it as one.

Dude, its too much for me to ignore. Its more of a psychological thing than stats. Apart from that stats, which gives the vague notion how best batsman have fared against them, I can recollect many such instances where a top quality batsman has owned Steyn while there hardly is a batsman who can claim that he has mastered Wasim at any stage of his career.

I am pretty sure, that even if I get exact data how these top batsman have performed these individual bowlers, Wasim would still come up better, and maybe even you realize that.

But thats the generic way of PPers to see how a particular batsman has performed against particular bowler. They take the batsmen stats against the bowling attack including that bowler. Thats what I did. Unfortunately, Wasim having somewhat better support don't satisfies you that this indeed is the case.

Who denies that? Its a non issue to be honest. That is his weakness and no one disputes that. You are assuming I am disputing the fact that Steyn didn't get FTBs out when they went on a rampage. I didn't.

But you haven't even accepted it in your previous posts makes me feel like you are ignoring this.

And no dude, its not a non-issue. When I made the point of batsman being weak in helpful conditions, you made the point of FTB's scoring heavily on pattas. Thats when I brought that up.

Steyn bundling out them on helpful tracks but unable to penetrate through on flat tracks. If you are giving so much weightage to Steyn's ability to run through batting line-ups (which I believe lack of batsmen temperament has a lot to do with this ability as well), you simply can't ignore that he has struggled to get them out when conditions don't favor him.

I think we both agree on this. Its just the matter which point we rate higher.

Totally agree with that.

But in the context of comparison when Steyn has beasted in SC pattas too (inspite of it being alien conditions), its irrelevant.

Now comparison between Steyn vs Wasim in SC doesn't have to be that we have to swap players and see. That's one way to look at it. We can also take them out and put them in a vaccuum (good team) and see how they would perform.

Thats why in my 25 posts so far, I didn't break up country wise stats, there is hardly anything to choose between them. Steyn has been exceptional in most places including Asia and so has been Wasim.

I was just explaining the stats put up by you and the ball conditioning logic.

Steyn has really done so much for his team's results that its unreal.

His averages on a series by series basis

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/en...art;template=results;type=bowling;view=series

Since 2004, Steyn has played in 32 series for South Africa.

In that, SA has lost only 4 series in total.

1 against England in 2004 (his debut series)
1 against SL in 2006
2 against Australia in 2009, 2014 (Aus always win in SA)

Now if you take matches and see (not the most comprehensive stats when it comes to showing impact but something to think about):

South Africa, Australia and Pakistan pacers from 1985 till present (averages in wins)

View attachment 57535

South Africa, Australia and Pakistan pacers from 1985 till present (averages in wins and draws)

View attachment 57536

South Africa, Australia and Pakistan pacers from 1985 till present (averages in wins) - OUTSIDE SC

View attachment 57538

South Africa, Australia and Pakistan pacers from 1985 till present (averages in wins and draws) - OUTSIDE SC

View attachment 57537

South Africa, Australia and Pakistan pacers from 1985 till present (averages in wins) - ASIA

View attachment 57540

South Africa, Australia and Pakistan pacers from 1985 till present (averages in wins and draws) - ASIA

View attachment 57539

Every single indicator....average in wins or wins and draws in outside asia or in asia....every time Steyn wins.

This is not a anomaly where stats make him look better.

Steyn fans love him because of this reason.

He will get carted.

He will not look magical at times.

He will blow hot and cold.

But when push comes to shove, he will simply come and KNOCK YOU OUT and win the game for SA.

In recent times from my memory

Spell against Aus in Perth won SA the series.
Spell against India in Durban won SA the series.
Spell against SL in forgot place won SA the series.
Spell against Pak in UAE made them draw it.

This is from 2013 recent times.

Steyn = results.

Just as much if not more than McGrath.

See the tables. Waqar is more comparable to Steyn than Wasim in most of them (maybe apart from away stats).

Its the classical Sachin vs Ponting or Kallis argument (Even Inzi would win over Sachin if I do that). People put up percentage of runs in wins and averages in victories. But that masks the other facet of the game.

Analyzing averages in victories obviously puts Wasim on disadvantage since Steyn has got the support of much well rounded and better batting line up than Wasim ever had. You can only compare the averages in wins if both the bowlers have similar batting line-ups to support them.

Pakistan's Batting Line-Up during Wasim's Era

South Africa's Batting Line-Up during Wasim's Era

Apart from this, I could recollect atleast 4 match-winning performance of Wasim (one or two 10-fers), which Pakistan lost because of poor umpiring. (Although different format, Wasim won Pakistan a WC with his magic, Steyn lose it for SA, can't doubt Wasim's match-winning ability)

Steyn no doubt is a great match-winner, and I admire him for that too.

BUT

To compare both of their stats in victories is like giving Wasim a two legged horse and ask him to win the race.

Talking of McGrath, I think he was notch higher than Wasim. Unlike Steyn, McGrath could gets he best out and can take FTB's out even when they are set.

 

[Stallion__]

*South Africa Batting Line Up during Steyn's era

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

Analyzing averages in victories obviously puts Wasim on disadvantage since Steyn has got the support of much well rounded and better batting line up than Wasim ever had. You can only compare the averages in wins if both the bowlers have similar batting line-ups to support them.

You agree with this?

Ok...see post #719

Another factor that should seal the deal for Steyn....

Here I won't take Akram's stats cos he was in a weak batting team and its hard to deduce anything from it.

Bowlers control a lot of test match results but they are dependent on their batsmen too. Can't deny that.

So let's compare Steyn with McGrath on matches lost (since both teams had good batting lineups over the years):

Steyn averages 34 when SA loses.
McGrath averages 23 when Australia loses.

Both sides have quality batting but look at how one team is dependent on Steyn and how he delivers over the years.

Steyn averages 16 when SA wins.
McGrath averages 19 when Australia wins.

Steyn averages 20 when SA wins or draws.
McGrath averages 21 when Australia wins or draws.

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/en...=2;template=results;type=bowling;view=innings

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/en...=2;template=results;type=bowling;view=innings

And I think this should seal it when it comes to Steyn's impact.

Steyn trumps McGrath when it comes to average in wins and average in wins and draws.

And McGrath played for the invincible Aussies, had Warne for support too.

When Steyn doesn't perform, SA gets screwed.

Steyn has his issues but when it comes to impact, he is right up there bro.

He is nowhere as good as Wasim in Tests quality wise but he has a better output because when he gets all charged up, he destroys all the lineups and wins games.

Average in wins and draws

1. I am aware of comparing average in wins but I am NOT using it as a main thing. Its supplementary data and not primary data. Plus a bowler controls the test match (but he is also dependent on batsmen).

2. Waqar has better stats than Akram in SOME places. Outside Asia, he is nowhere to be seen. Whereas Steyn trumps all in every place...every condition.

Just because an indicator isn't the most perfect doesn't mean we can ignore results where one person is beating the other in ALL areas (Asia, outside Asia, overall).

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

I am sure that batting average has lot to do with feasting upon some hopeless bowling on flattest of wickets.They usually went missing against quality bowling even in asia.Their is a reason why many cricketing experts rate wasim as the most outstanding pacer of his generation.

That is valid point but Steyn too has had disadvantages in Asia:

1. No spinners to support him
2. No ATG bowlers to support him

Ok...Pakistan went missing against quality bowlers but what happened to India. We are almost invincible at home and lost only 3 home series from 1990 and Steyn averages 20 against us in India.

That guy is simply a beast bro. No matter what, he gets the results. He simply finds a way to get the results.

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

I am only discussing Tests.

Not ODIs.

 

[Stallion__]

You agree with this?

Ok...see post #719



Steyn trumps McGrath when it comes to average in wins and average in wins and draws.

And McGrath played for the invincible Aussies, had Warne for support too.

When Steyn doesn't perform, SA gets screwed.

Steyn has his issues but when it comes to impact, he is right up there bro.

He is nowhere as good as Wasim in Tests quality wise but he has a better output because when he gets all charged up, he destroys all the lineups and wins games.

Average in wins and draws

1. I am aware of comparing average in wins but I am NOT using it as a main thing. Its supplementary data and not primary data. Plus a bowler controls the test match (but he is also dependent on batsmen).

2. Waqar has better stats than Akram in SOME places. Outside Asia, he is nowhere to be seen. Whereas Steyn trumps all in every place...every condition.

Just because an indicator isn't the most perfect doesn't mean we can ignore results where one person is beating the other in ALL areas (Asia, outside Asia, overall).

So you are using a transitive property of if a>b, b>c then a>c.

But its not as simple as that in my book. I don't rate McGrath over Wasim simply over his match winning ability. But for his remarkable consistency.

True enough, that he has produced output when he is charged up, and has won matches. But you can't compare that with Wasim in terms of averages, it simply puts Wasim under huge disadvantage because or inferior batsman and fielders plus umpiring.

SA bowling relies heavily on Steyn and he delivers thats why he is an ATG. But I don't agree with the method of analysis.
I don't wanted to bring that but I do think match winning ability has to do with the person more than the format. Wasim has seize the moment and won Pakistan a WC. (You could ignore this point if you want though, its just my personal assumption)

Its the same case like you asked me to drop the point when a method is inaccurate. You yourself are now bringing up an non-reliable method to prove a point.

You don't want to compare him with Waqar, fair enough, you have your reasons, I don't want to do it for McGrath, fine. Don't bring a third person. It would scatter to an extent difficult to gather. Stick to Wasim vs Steyn.

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

So you are using a transitive property of if a>b, b>c then c>a.

But its not as simple as that in my book. I don't rate McGrath over Wasim simply over his match winning ability. But for his remarkable consistency.

True enough, that he has produced output when he is charged up, and has won matches. But you can't compare that with Wasim in terms of averages, it simply puts Wasim under huge disadvantage because or inferior batsman and fielders plus umpiring.

SA bowling relies heavily on Steyn and he delivers thats why he is an ATG. But I don't agree with the method of analysis.
I don't wanted to bring that but I do think match winning ability has to do with the person more than the format. Wasim has seize the moment and won Pakistan a WC. (You could ignore this point if you want though, its just my personal assumption)

Its the same case like you asked me to drop the point when a method is inaccurate. You yourself are now bringing up an non-reliable method to prove a point.

You don't want to compare him with Waqar, fair enough, you have your reasons, I don't want to do it for McGrath, fine. Don't bring a third person. It would scatter to an extent difficult to gather. Stick to Wasim vs Steyn.

No...you made a point that its valid to compare bowlers with similar quality of batting.

I did.

Steyn trumps McGrath.

Now I am not implying automatically Steyn is better than Wasim due to this alone but look at this:

1. Averages in countries
2. Averages in wins/draws
3. Stable rankings at the top for majority of his career
4. Winning matches and series for SA and stats are there which confirm
5. Then AFTER ALL THIS, even when comparing with a monster (McGrath), Steyn comes out on top

The data for Steyn is so damn high (inspite of his flaws).

It keeps piling on.

Its not like I took 1 indicator and stuck to it like crazily.

Steyn is not comparable to Waqar cos Steyn has delivered everywhere. Its not a matter of opinions, its a matter of fact. Waqar and Steyn are similar kind of bowlers but Steyn has performed everywhere which renders comparison defunct.

 

[hussain123]

That is valid point but Steyn too has had disadvantages in Asia:

1. No spinners to support him
2. No ATG bowlers to support him

Ok...Pakistan went missing against quality bowlers but what happened to India. We are almost invincible at home and lost only 3 home series from 1990 and Steyn averages 20 against us in India.

That guy is simply a beast bro. No matter what, he gets the results. He simply finds a way to get the results.

I think his stats are a tad skewed by that one match in nagpur which was tailor made for his style of bowling. Their was seam and swing on offer and reverse too with the old ball.I think he took some 12 wickets conceding less than 100 runs.It will be interesting to see how well his stats are excluding that match.

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

I think his stats are a tad skewed by that one match in nagpur which was tailor made for his style of bowling. Their was seam and swing on offer and reverse too with the old ball.I think he took some 12 wickets conceding less than 100 runs.It will be interesting to see how well his stats are excluding that match.

2008 tour of India, Steyn averaged 20.
2010 tour of India, Steyn averaged 20.

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/en...art;template=results;type=bowling;view=series

Another factor...when we cherry pick any pacer wickets, we would get crazy data. Like remove Wasim or Waqar's tailender wickets and their average would zoom. That's true for every bowler (ATG or not) which is why large sample is taken.

 

[Stallion__]

No...you made a point that its valid to compare bowlers with similar quality of batting.

I did.

Steyn trumps McGrath.

Yes I did. But not because of McGrath's averages in wins. Tbh, I do consider him higher than Wasim, but I haven't analyzed his record in depth as compared to Wasim (as I have done Wasim vs Steyn).

Now I am not implying automatically Steyn is better than Wasim due to this alone but look at this:

1. Averages in countries
2. Averages in wins/draws
3. Stable rankings at the top for majority of his career
4. Winning matches and series for SA and stats are there which confirm
5. Then AFTER ALL THIS, even when comparing with a monster (McGrath), Steyn comes out on top

The data for Steyn is so damn high (inspite of his flaws).

It keeps piling on.

Its not like I took 1 indicator and stuck to it like crazily.

Steyn is not comparable to Waqar cos Steyn has delivered everywhere. Its not a matter of opinions, its a matter of fact. Waqar and Steyn are similar kind of bowlers but Steyn has performed everywhere which renders comparison defunct.

1,2 and 4 have been discussed already. Its about you are convinced that he is better in those 3 aspects than Wasim while I am not. And I have my reasons which have been discussed in previous posts. So the list is only piling up for you only not for me. And for the 5th one, well I rate McGrath higher for different reasons not the one you mentioned.

The third one ICC rankings is just the indicator of performances, if we are discussing them in other performances and stats, I don't think we need to look at ICC rankings. But even then if you thinks its worth discussion, I need look more into how these rankings works.

But yes, now it feels like redundant. The list is only increasing for you, not for me means that we have different views despite so much discussion.

 

[Stallion__]

As for Waqar, yes he has lesser away averages, thats why I said Steyn would win that battle, but its worth a comparison due to similarity in their styles.

 

[Nikhil_cric]

As for Waqar, yes he has lesser away averages, thats why I said Steyn would win that battle, but its worth a comparison due to similarity in their styles.

Also post 1994, Waqar bashed bangla and Zim and was only decent against top sides barring the odd spell.

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

McGrath holds a special place in my heart for being the guy who has never lost to any batsmen.

Wasim too holds a special place in my heart and frankly its a bit sad that there is a comparison of him going on with others cos his talent is so much more than others and many feel he underachieved in Tests.

Anyways....who knows all our views can change in the future.

Its an evolving thing.

 

[Stallion__]

Also post 1994, Waqar bashed bangla and Zim and was only decent against top sides barring the odd spell.

Its actually not as simple as that. For two years, he has suffered with back injuries, and if I exclude the stats for those two years, he would probably lesser than Steyn!

But this can't be done. Since during those two years, he has toured Aus, where he has averaged significantly greater than he should have. So its like masking his weakness with the injury.

But I don't want to dig in it in detail. I would rather stick to Wasim vs Steyn, than putting unnecessary comparisons.

 

[hussain123]

2008 tour of India, Steyn averaged 20.
2010 tour of India, Steyn averaged 20.

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/en...art;template=results;type=bowling;view=series

Another factor...when we cherry pick any pacer wickets, we would get crazy data. Like remove Wasim or Waqar's tailender wickets and their average would zoom. That's true for every bowler (ATG or not) which is why large sample is taken.

Fairenough.I personally feel the reason why wasim is rated more is bcoz of his versatilty and his ability to chwnge the course of game from any situation.Add to that the difference in the quality of batting n fielding, wasim is given a benefit of doubt.I mean it cant be a coincidence that most cricketing legends pick wasim in their world test X1 ahead of so many atgs.some may say, this is to add more variety to the bowling.However, you cant exclude someone like steyn or a mcgrath for that petty reason.maybe the professional cricketers think on a different pedestral than you guys out here.I mean even dennis lillee is almost unanimously rated as the greatest bowler of his generation although he didnt have any lots to show on the subcontinent, especially pakistan.

 

[Stallion__]

McGrath holds a special place in my heart for being the guy who has never lost to any batsmen.

Wasim too holds a special place in my heart and frankly its a bit sad that there is a comparison of him going on with others cos his talent is so much more than others and many feel he underachieved in Tests.

Anyways....who knows all our views can change in the future.

Its an evolving thing.

Haha.. Sure

The possible outcome could be (though I never want that), Steyn deteriorating in his performance but still keeps hanging on, thus damaging his legacy. That may make you think otherwise. Afterall many fast bowlers has tough last few years (including Wasim).

We would be in a best possible position to pass a judgement once Steyn finishes.

Had a feeling that I have been talking to Hina Rabbani Khar for all that time

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

Fairenough.I personally feel the reason why wasim is rated more is bcoz of his versatilty and his ability to chwnge the course of game from any situation.Add to that the difference in the quality of batting n fielding, wasim is given a benefit of doubt.I mean it cant be a coincidence that most cricketing legends pick wasim in their world test X1 ahead of so many atgs.some may say, this is to add more variety to the bowling.However, you cant exclude someone like steyn or a mcgrath for that petty reason.maybe the professional cricketers think on a different pedestral than you guys out here.I mean even dennis lillee is almost unanimously rated as the greatest bowler of his generation although he didnt have any lots to show on the subcontinent, especially pakistan.

True.

He is indeed special.

These kind of debates are fun but we can only ever know the real answer if both of them played in the same era.

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

Haha.. Sure

The possible outcome could be (though I never want that), Steyn deteriorating in his performance but still keeps hanging on, thus damaging his legacy. That may make you think otherwise. Afterall many fast bowlers has tough last few years (including Wasim).

We would be in a best possible position to pass a judgement once Steyn finishes.

Had a feeling that I have been talking to Hina Rabbani Khar for all that time

I always have a lot of doubts in my mind.

Whether Sachin was genuinely as good as he is rated?
Was Lara as good as what others say?
Was Sobers as good?
How good was Viv in Tests?

Same way for bowlers, I have constant doubts about

Was Steyn as good as his numbers say? Are we having a prejudice against him or is it a case of little competition from others?
Was Wasim as good in Tests if you move away from his skills and charisma?
Would Ryan Harris become ATG if not for fitness issues?
Would guys like McGrath be carted around in today's era?

Lots and lots of doubts.

Its an evolving thing.

 

[hussain123]

True.

He is indeed special.

These kind of debates are fun but we can only ever know the real answer if both of them played in the same era.

True that.I dont think, for these legends these comparisons even matter.But I am sure as hell that steyn has to win a big tournament to be rated at par or better thwn wasim, atleast for the ppl on this forum.

 

[Stallion__]

I am probably more conclusive on others except for McGrath and Viv. Have my doubts (one of them about McGrath just created by you) about them.

Though I think we have a quality discussion here, despite not concluding anything, any other poster would enjoy this if he read it from start to end. Some serious facts myth breaking facts being put up, specially that bowling attack support one from you, I actually said in between I rate Steyns' bowling support better than Wasim's which I have to take back after analyzing further.

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

I am probably more conclusive on others except for McGrath and Viv. Have my doubts (one of them about McGrath just created by you) about them.

Though I think we have a quality discussion here, despite not concluding anything, any other poster would enjoy this if he read it from start to end. Some serious facts myth breaking facts being put up, specially that bowling attack support one from you, I actually said in between I rate Steyns' bowling support better than Wasim's which I have to take back after analyzing further.

I wish I was more conclusive about others than you. It was a great discussion indeed.

By the way, can you list in your opinion who are the top 10 batsmen and bowlers in Tests?

I would be interested to know.

 

[Stallion__]

Batsman

1) Bradman
2) Hobbs
3) Sobers
4) Sachin
5) Viv
6) Hutton
7) Gavasker
8) Lara
9) George Headley
10) Graeme Pollock

Top 4 may never change. Not as sure about others. I have started develop a liking for Barry Richards, so he may break up in the list after some time.

Bowlers (excluding Steyn who would likely to end up in this list once he retires)

1) Marshall
2) Barnes
3) McGrath
4) Wasim
5) Imran
6) Lillee
7) Hadlee
8) Ambrose
9) Garner
10) Trueman

Was more assured about top 5 but have just been more doubtful about McGrath since the discussion. Bottom 5 might change though.

 

[Stallion__]

^Only fast bowlers.

 

[as-95]

Bowler is going to bowl to batsmen , right? Sl as a team may not have won much in 90s but their batting unit was pretty good and that's reflected in runs per wicket scored by SL batsmen. WI had a weak batting unit during Wasim's career and that's reflected in their runs per wicket.

You can give credit for performing against good test sides but as a bowler you are going to bowl against batsmen and as a batsmen you are going to score runs against bowlers. If you do it against better ones then more credit should be given. WI won more games simply due to having great bowlers and not due to having a gun batting unit. Yes, you can give credit to anyone for performing against the dominant side but you have to look why that side was dominating.

Great Aus/WI teams had gun batting and gun bowling both. So doing well against them either as bowler or batsman was great. Same things can't be said about all teams if they have lopsided batting or bowling. You do have to see if they are dominating due to strong batting or strong bowling unit. WI comes 7th as batting side when Wasim played so not sure how much credit you want to give to Wasim for performing well against 7th best batting unit just because the same batting unit happens to have the likes of Ambrose, Walsh etc.

Again, your thinking is flawed pal. There is no point in having a high number of runs per wicket if your team is performing poorly and losing the majority of its matches. Even if West Indies had a slightly lower number of runs per wicket(0.79) than Sri Lanka during Wasim's era, their bowling more than made up for it in causing greater difficulty for the opposition bowlers. Strong bowling is not mutually exclusive to the degree of difficulty it will take for the opposition bowling to get the batting team out. They are interlinked and arguably ATG bowling on Team WI with decent batting will have a bigger effect on the opposition's bowlers than slightly better batting on Team SL but poor bowling.

For example, in a game between Pakistan and West Indies, if Pakistan were bowled out for a low total by the fearsome WIndies bowling, the added confidence for the batting side and the massive pressure on the Pakistani bowlers(in addition to the lack of pressure for the WI batsman) would make it far more difficult to bowl against than Sri Lanka with a slightly higher average total but their weak bowling making life easy for the opposition batsmen..... and therefore a far easier total for the Pakistani bowlers to defend against. Take a look at the gulf in class between the WI bowlers and the SL bowlers compared to the marginal difference between the batting avg's.



Therefore, on this basis, I still believe that we should not be choosing the teams with the highest number of runs per wicket, and instead the truly most dominant sides using the W/L ratio(which West Indies were in Wasim's era). Consequently, I stand by the notion that Wasim performed better against the most dominant sides of his era whereas Steyn was below par against Australia and woeful against England(with a big enough sample size).

To conclude, as I said earlier, Wasim's stats against the most dominant sides are more impressive and Steyn's suggest that he MAY have deflated his average against the less dominant sides in his era.

I have repeated countless times in this thread that there is no doubt in my eyes about Steyn being a great fast bowler(in Tests as he is underwhelming in ODI's). He is just not on the level of Wasim yet. I am a fan of Steyn and if he can perform consistently against the top sides and show something credible on the World Stage, I will have no qualms about rating Steyn on Wasim's level. Until then though, he is the rung below.

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

Batsman



Top 4 may never change. Not as sure about others. I have started develop a liking for Barry Richards, so he may break up in the list after some time.

Bowlers (excluding Steyn who would likely to end up in this list once he retires)

1) Marshall
2) Barnes
3) McGrath
4) Wasim
5) Imran
6) Lillee
7) Hadlee
8) Ambrose
9) Garner
10) Trueman

Was more assured about top 5 but have just been more doubtful about McGrath since the discussion. Bottom 5 might change though.

Thanks mate.

Cool.

 

[sivaji]

Since you and many of us admit that Wasim is more skillful than Steyn, imagine Wasim replacing Steyn. He would have to bowl more on helpful tracks (SA better place for fast bowling than Asia) against batsman inept to cope with quality bowling. Even with lesser support, if he is more skillful, he is more likely to end up with superior figures.

What's Wasim in helpful tracks of England, SA etc? Rubbish.. He was rubbish in those helpful tracks. Well on the other hand, it's harder for a bowler from those countries to adapt to the subcontinental flat roads and Steyn has bowled really well on them, averaging something like 22 in the subcontinental.

Well you talked about Sanga, Jeya getting runs on the flat tracks.. well it was the first away series for Steyn. He was going to struggle. Akram was rubbish in SA, England, NZ etc.. He was bowling to weaker SL batting lineups in the 90s and got wickets..

Sehwag got a triple hundred in India against Steyn.. Sehwag is a special player and Steyn has dismissed him many many times. Akram was lucky enough not to be bowling at Sehwag at his peak. Sehwag hit McGrath too in India.
The fact of the matter is AKram has struggled to adjust to the helpful conditions of SA, England, Australia etc. He has struggled against good batsmen too and he was lucky to be bowling in the best era for bowling. I could imagine him struggling against the Sehwags and the Kholis, the Warner etcs of the new millennium. Remember Akram couldn't defend 350 against Autralia. Gilly hit him all around the park.. It was in the late 90s. Imagine him bowling now.

 

[sivaji]

And how much did the batters contribute to steyns cause? You are forgetting putting runs on the scoreboard is as vital as picking wickets.bcoz, that is what gives you license to go all over the opposition.believe me, pakistani batting used to blow hot n cold evrn in asian conditions.i think you r underestimating how bad pakistan batting can go?

are you saying Inzamam, Youhana, Anwar, Malik, and the countless others are vastly inferior to the likes of Amla, AB, Smith, Kallis etc? I don't think so. Most of the Pakistani batsmen at least did well in Pakistan, much more than the SA batsmen did well in SA.

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

[MENTION=138135]sivaji[/MENTION] - May I know why you chose that username?

What does that mean?

Always wondered about it.

 

[sivaji]

Repeat again. Wasim has never been rated no 1 in the bowling rankings and I can't remember if he ever cracked the 900 points mark. He always blew hot and cold. Unreliable bowler but once in a while bowl a good ball and got wicket. He often wasted new balls and when batsmen attacked him, he had no plan B. He also struggled in helpful conditions like SA, England, Australia etc. That's why he would never be rated ahead of Donald, Steyn, Ambrose, McGrath, Lillee, Hadlee etc. Wasim and Waqar are a level below those bowlers. Pollock is a comparable bowler to Akram.

 

[sivaji]

[MENTION=138135]sivaji[/MENTION] - May I know why you chose that username?

What does that mean?

Always wondered about it.

Rajini movie inspired

edit: appreciate your good posts. One sensible poster

 

[sajeebmcj]

akram is overhyped. he was great but always get hyped. his performance in eng,aus,rsa, india is below per. he had variety but that didn't make him the best. he was a notch below of donald,mcgrath and ambrose.

 

[sivaji]

What I find so good about Steyn is he bowls at least one terrorizing spell in every test series and win at least one test off his bowling. He is probably the most consistent bowler throughout a career.

 

[sivaji]

akram is overhyped. he was great but always get hyped. his performance in eng,aus,rsa, india is below per. he had variety but that didn't make him the best. he was a notch below of donald,mcgrath and ambrose.

He is like Mark Waugh. He was mesmerizing when he was in the zone but looks aren't everything. Players are out there to win their team matches and they should be rated on their output.

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

Rajini movie inspired

edit: appreciate your good posts. One sensible poster

Haha....Really?

I thought so but then felt...no it can't be it.

You are a South African right? How did you come across Rajni movies and stuff? I mean what made you watch it?

 

[sivaji]

Indian watch Indian movies

 

[Chrish]

The closest bowler to Wasim is Starc as someone has already said.. Not that Starc is as good as Wasim or anything. But style wise both of these bowlers rely on variations and unplayable deliveries to take wickets. Moreover both are left armers..

 

[WrexEverything]

Which is why I rate him by his performances against the top teams. He's done well against India but failed against Australia and England which is not good enough.

Can we please stop saying this? I agree he's not been great against England, but how on earth is an average of 27.1 with 69 wickets in 14 matches at SR of 45 a "failure"????!!!

Again, I fail to see how Steyn's average of 27.1 vs Aus is that much worse than Akram's 25.7 vs Aus. This Australia is not asstrong as the one in Wasim's era but it's balanced out by the fact that the pitches are flatter, without a doubt. I mean, we're calling one performance a "success" and the other "failure" even though the difference in avg is 1.4. That's absolutely minuscule.

 

[Stallion__]

What's Wasim in helpful tracks of England, SA etc? Rubbish.. He was rubbish in those helpful tracks. Well on the other hand, it's harder for a bowler from those countries to adapt to the subcontinental flat roads and Steyn has bowled really well on them, averaging something like 22 in the subcontinental.

Well you talked about Sanga, Jeya getting runs on the flat tracks.. well it was the first away series for Steyn. He was going to struggle. Akram was rubbish in SA, England, NZ etc.. He was bowling to weaker SL batting lineups in the 90s and got wickets..

Sehwag got a triple hundred in India against Steyn.. Sehwag is a special player and Steyn has dismissed him many many times. Akram was lucky enough not to be bowling at Sehwag at his peak. Sehwag hit McGrath too in India.
The fact of the matter is AKram has struggled to adjust to the helpful conditions of SA, England, Australia etc. He has struggled against good batsmen too and he was lucky to be bowling in the best era for bowling. I could imagine him struggling against the Sehwags and the Kholis, the Warner etcs of the new millennium. Remember Akram couldn't defend 350 against Autralia. Gilly hit him all around the park.. It was in the late 90s. Imagine him bowling now.

I think I already had a discussion with you on Wasim vs Steyn in a separate thread and I have 40 posts in this one as well. Can't be repeating same thing again and again.

True Steyn was young, but remember, that never happened with Wasim even when he was young.

Its the same points you are mentioning now that what you did in another thread which I already answered. (Akram couldn't defend 350, Akram is lucky not to have faced Warner, Sehwag, Kohli etc., Akram couldn't adopt etc).

I don't appreciate replicating similar things continuously. If you are not satisfied, you keep your opinion, I keep mine!

 

[WrexEverything]

I think his stats are a tad skewed by that one match in nagpur which was tailor made for his style of bowling. Their was seam and swing on offer and reverse too with the old ball.I think he took some 12 wickets conceding less than 100 runs.It will be interesting to see how well his stats are excluding that match.

Trust me, the pitch had nothing, I repeat nothing for fast bowlers. It was as good a wicket for batting as you can get. I'll just pick out some quotes from Cricinfo:

The revisionists and the ignorant have already had their say. It's possible to read accounts that refer to this game as one played on a bowler-friendly pitch. All we know is that South Africa batted first and scored 558, with Hashim Amla and Jacques Kallis adding 340 for the third wicket. At one point, before the Steyn whirlwind wreaked its havoc, India were 212 for 4 in reply, with Virender Sehwag scoring yet another insouciant century.

Make no mistake, this was no WACA or Kingsmead. It was just another Indian pitch, with bowlers having to work incredibly hard for the slightest reward. Steyn's class with the new ball had been apparent in the dismissals of M Vijay and Sachin Tendulkar, but it was a four-over spell after tea on the third evening that made the old-timers reach for the Malcolm Marshall comparisons.

The most stunning part of his performance is that he took the conditions out of the equation. The pitch had nothing for him, but he was quick through the air and got his outswinger, the contemporary game's most potent weapon, working beautifully. Each of his wickets was earned.

The only thing you can say against him is that Dravid and VVS were missing in that game. Regardless, the way Steyn set up Vijay and Tendulkar in that match showed his class. It's one of the best spells on a subcontinent pitch I have ever seen.

The thing that helped Steyn was that the ball's seam had been damaged, as often happens on abrasive wickets with Sehwag going great guns. But to take advantage of it like that is what only greats can do.

 

[Navdeep Srivastava]

Repeat again. Wasim has never been rated no 1 in the bowling rankings and I can't remember if he ever cracked the 900 points mark. He always blew hot and cold. Unreliable bowler but once in a while bowl a good ball and got wicket. He often wasted new balls and when batsmen attacked him, he had no plan B. He also struggled in helpful conditions like SA, England, Australia etc. That's why he would never be rated ahead of Donald, Steyn, Ambrose, McGrath, Lillee, Hadlee etc. Wasim and Waqar are a level below those bowlers. Pollock is a comparable bowler to Akram.

My favourite batsmen Sachin also never cracked 900 points and 500 runs in a series. Just like Sachin Wasim was also very consistent apart from last 16 test.
Another thing is that Wasim was left hander and apart from New Zealand and Australia he got pitches which were more supporting for reverse swing even England 92 and 96 series, so most of the time he has to use old ball against right-hander and see how Steyn struggle against left handers with old ball non swinging pitches.
Same way Steyn bad numbers against England can be attributed to injuries during 2008 and 2010 series and partially because of super duper flat pitches in 2012.
Steyn numbers are good aginst Australia in flat track era and pitches like 2012 his average is still 27with strike rate of 45 with 5wicket per match.
For me Steyn is ahead but by very little margin and is behind McGrath and that too by little margin,the situation is not black and white like Waim and Steyn hard-core fans are putting it. It all depends upon Steyn last years if he manage to play like 25 odd test with 125 wicket with same rate then he will even cross McGrath.

 

[Navdeep Srivastava]

I think his stats are a tad skewed by that one match in nagpur which was tailor made for his style of bowling. Their was seam and swing on offer and reverse too with the old ball.I think he took some 12 wickets conceding less than 100 runs.It will be interesting to see how well his stats are excluding that match.

Not true,he also averaged 20 with strike rate of 35 in 2008 3test match series, including one spell of 23/5 which skitted India to 76 all out.

 

[as-95]

Wow, a couple of seriously jealous and deluded Indians have infested this thread overnight. It's clear that you can't take it when Pakistanis are highly rated by their peers and you have to find a way to try and put them down. If you have such hatred and can't take Pakistani success, you should just join IndiaCricketFans like the rest...

 

[as-95]

He is like Mark Waugh. He was mesmerizing when he was in the zone but looks aren't everything. Players are out there to win their team matches and they should be rated on their output.

)Laughable comparison. You demonstrate your incredibly low cricketing knowledge in this post.

 

[as-95]

What's Wasim in helpful tracks of England, SA etc? Rubbish.. He was rubbish in those helpful tracks. Well on the other hand, it's harder for a bowler from those countries to adapt to the subcontinental flat roads and Steyn has bowled really well on them, averaging something like 22 in the subcontinental.

Well you talked about Sanga, Jeya getting runs on the flat tracks.. well it was the first away series for Steyn. He was going to struggle. Akram was rubbish in SA, England, NZ etc.. He was bowling to weaker SL batting lineups in the 90s and got wickets..

Sehwag got a triple hundred in India against Steyn.. Sehwag is a special player and Steyn has dismissed him many many times. Akram was lucky enough not to be bowling at Sehwag at his peak. Sehwag hit McGrath too in India.
The fact of the matter is AKram has struggled to adjust to the helpful conditions of SA, England, Australia etc. He has struggled against good batsmen too and he was lucky to be bowling in the best era for bowling. I could imagine him struggling against the Sehwags and the Kholis, the Warner etcs of the new millennium. Remember Akram couldn't defend 350 against Autralia. Gilly hit him all around the park.. It was in the late 90s. Imagine him bowling now.

Wow, I think i lost brain cells after reading your first line. The 'Anyone but Pakistani' mentality you have is evident. Wasim has played 2 games in South Africa so that is FAR too small a sample size to make a judgement about him on 'helpful' tracks. On top of this, the double standards you show are equally funny;You comment on Wasim being "rubbish" on helpful tracks and use his performance in England as evidence... but you fail to recognise that his average is almost 3 runs less than Steyn's on those helpful tracks.)
0
Moreover, you further mention that Wasim was rubbish in New Zeland... The fact that Wasim averages 17 in New Zeland really hits the point home that you are just a bitter hater who can't take Wasim's success and are inventing lies to try and bring him down. This is really pathetic of you and you should be ashamed of yourself once you read this and realise that you have been found out.

Finally, you also comment about Wasim struggling to adjust to the Australian conditions. This is also a lie as Wasim averages 24 in Aus compared to Steyns 28.

To conclude, the lies you made up to try and argue that Wasim was worse than Steyn are factually incorrect. You should avoid this thread from now on if you have any shame.

Goodbye.

 

[Navdeep Srivastava]

Wow, a couple of seriously jealous and deluded Indians have infested this thread overnight. It's clear that you can't take it when Pakistanis are highly rated by their peers and you have to find a way to try and put them down. If you have such hatred and can't take Pakistani success, you should just join IndiaCricketFans like the rest...

I think both side are guilty and as I have said earlier there is not a big difference and selection of Wasim over Steyn or vice versa both is possible.
As I have repeated earlier for me Steyn is just ahead of Wasim and just behind McGrath and lots depends upon how Steyn will do in last 3 years.
Actually this comparison reminds me of when McGrath completed 400 wickets in 87 test matches then there was lot of talk whether McGrath was better than Wasim and Waqar then I selected Wasim over McGrath but he took 170 wicket in next 37 matches around average of 21 and changed my mind.
In this situation if Steyn carries on for next three years and manage to take 125 wickets in 25 matches with similar average and strike rate he will everybody behind, I mean 550 wickets with strike rate under 45.

 

[Navdeep Srivastava]

strike rate he will* everybody behind, I mean 550 wickets with strike rate under 45.

He will leave everybody behind

 

[WrexEverything]

The rate at which Steyn takes wickets truly is astonishing. The strike rate as well as the sheer volume. Great bowlers like Wasim and Ambrose are around 4 per match. Steyn is over 5. Apart from Lillee and Hadlee no one can match that.

 

[Nikhil_cric]

The rate at which Steyn takes wickets truly is astonishing. The strike rate as well as the sheer volume. Great bowlers like Wasim and Ambrose are around 4 per match. Steyn is over 5. Apart from Lillee and Hadlee no one can match that.

Is why put him above Ambrose and Waz. He's always among the wickets is steyn. Also McGrath at his peak, wa taking nearly 5 wickets a match from 1995 - 2005.

 

[Hitman]

We can compare them after he completes his career. Hope he ends up as the most successful fast bowler surpassing Glenn McGrath.

 

[Neferpitou]

The rate at which Steyn takes wickets truly is astonishing. The strike rate as well as the sheer volume. Great bowlers like Wasim and Ambrose are around 4 per match. Steyn is over 5. Apart from Lillee and Hadlee no one can match that.

Steyn doesn't have to share the wickets with ATGs from the other side. He also enjoys the sole responsibility of cleaning up the tail while Wasim had to fight with Imran, Waqar, Shoaib, Mushtaq, Saqlain. With all due respect to Morkel and Philander, they aren't the type who can run through a tail.

You keep bringing up wickets per match. What the hell can Wasim do if his fielders keep dropping catches? I already pointed out that around 150+ catches were dropped during his career, if they catch half of those, he averages 20.

This is without other factors like scoreboard pressure or bowling with fatigue from constant collapses.

 

[WrexEverything]

Steyn doesn't have to share the wickets with ATGs from the other side. He also enjoys the sole responsibility of cleaning up the tail while Wasim had to fight with Imran, Waqar, Shoaib, Mushtaq, Saqlain. With all due respect to Morkel and Philander, they aren't the type who can run through a tail.

You keep bringing up wickets per match. What the hell can Wasim do if his fielders keep dropping catches? I already pointed out that around 150+ catches were dropped during his career, if they catch half of those, he averages 20.

This is without other factors like scoreboard pressure or bowling with fatigue from constant collapses.

Look mate the 150+ catches is a pure hypothetical. No idea how you got that figure.

The rest of your points I half agree with. But don't you think Pollock, Ntini, Philander, Morkel are all top class bowlers? It's not like Steyn was a one man attack and thus was going to pick up lots of wickets anyway (like hadlee and Murali), he still has had to compete with some excellent bowlers.

And it's not like Steyn is the first bowler with the characteristics you described. Yet, apart from Steyn, only 2 fast bowlers have ever maintained over 5 wickets per match? You cannot pretend his phenomenal rate of wicket taking is purely a result of him bowling to tailenders.... every strike bowler does that. Yet precious few have 5+wpm.

 

[giri26]

Dale Steyn as a test bowler is fantastic. With people complaining about the state of wickets currently around the world, for a bowler to average under 23 at a SR of 41 is phenomenal. Wasim was a magician and will remain as one of the best left arm bowlers in the world, if not the best but I feel that Steyn will end up statistically better than Akram in tests. Steyn is just 18 wickets behind Akram in tests and he has played 26 less tests and 50 less innings. That is absolutely beastly.

 

[Neferpitou]

Look mate the 150+ catches is a pure hypothetical. No idea how you got that figure.

The rest of your points I half agree with. But don't you think Pollock, Ntini, Philander, Morkel are all top class bowlers? It's not like Steyn was a one man attack and thus was going to pick up lots of wickets anyway (like hadlee and Murali), he still has had to compete with some excellent bowlers.

And it's not like Steyn is the first bowler with the characteristics you described. Yet, apart from Steyn, only 2 fast bowlers have ever maintained over 5 wickets per match? You cannot pretend his phenomenal rate of wicket taking is purely a result of him bowling to tailenders.... every strike bowler does that. Yet precious few have 5+wpm.

1.5 dropped catches per game. The actual number's probably higher.

Hardly hypothetical, you can go back and watch some of Wasim's old spells. Dropped catches galore. Dude I'm not the only one who's claiming this, just ask any player who's faced Pakistan. From Wasim's mouth in an interview in Australia, around 2:50.

I gave them their due respect but they aren't the type who can run through a tail.

 

[Buffet]

Steyn is just 18 wickets behind Akram in tests and he has played 26 less tests and 50 less innings.

Hadlee, Marshall , McGrath etc may be a better comparison when it comes to running through sides and picking up heaps of wickets in each tests.

 

[WrexEverything]

1.5 dropped catches per game. The actual number's probably higher.

Hardly hypothetical, you can go back and watch some of Wasim's old spells. Dropped catches galore. Dude I'm not the only one who's claiming this, just ask any player who's faced Pakistan. From Wasim's mouth in an interview in Australia, around 2:50.

I gave them their due respect but they aren't the type who can run through a tail.

1.5 catches dropped per game off just Akram? Find that astoshingly hard to believe.

 

[Neferpitou]

1.5 catches dropped per game off just Akram? Find that astoshingly hard to believe.

lmao is all I have to say. The stupidity is ripe in this one.

 

[hussain123]

1.5 catches dropped per game off just Akram? Find that astoshingly hard to believe.

Did you watch the recent worldcup.their were 3 catches dropped of wahab riaz in a single match.i can imagine how bad would have it been in 90s.

 

[WrexEverything]

lmao is all I have to say. The stupidity is ripe in this one.

Don't resort to insults. Stick to the damn debate.

 

[WrexEverything]

Did you watch the recent worldcup.their were 3 catches dropped of wahab riaz in a single match.i can imagine how bad would have it been in 90s.

I understand Pakistan's catching has always been terrible, but 150 wickets dropped in 104 matches off just the bowling of Wasim Akram? That's just a ridiculously unrealistic figure. Complete nonsense.

 

[hussain123]

I understand Pakistan's catching has always been terrible, but 150 wickets dropped in 104 matches off just the bowling of Wasim Akram? That's just a ridiculously unrealistic figure. Complete nonsense.

I remember one popular poster with username mmhs saying dropping 10 to 15 catches every test match used to be a norm with pakistan fielding.i think if you believe that, 150 catches story seems very much possible.

 

[WrexEverything]

I remember one popular poster with username mmhs saying dropping 10 to 15 catches every test match used to be a norm with pakistan fielding.i think if you believe that, 150 catches story seems very much possible.

Really?

 

[hussain123]

Really?

Trust me.i could have quoted it for you.but I dont have enough patience to go through plethora of posts.i hope mmhs is himself somewhere around to tell it you

 

[Monsee]

I understand Pakistan's catching has always been terrible, but 150 wickets dropped in 104 matches off just the bowling of Wasim Akram? That's just a ridiculously unrealistic figure. Complete nonsense.

With all due respect, you sound just like my almost 7 year old daughter i.e. despite not having been there, not knowing what you are talking about etc. you still have the gall to claim something being said is complete nonsense!

If you were not there, never seen a complete match with Pak as one of the teams, don't know what the reality is/was, how can you say with such conviction that other person is lying?

 

[WrexEverything]

With all due respect, you sound just like my almost 7 year old daughter i.e. despite not having been there, not knowing what you are talking about etc. you still have the gall to claim something being said is complete nonsense!

If you were not there, never seen a complete match with Pak as one of the teams, don't know what the reality is/was, how can you say with such conviction that other person is lying?

I say it again, stop with the ridiculous insults. I can dish them out too.

Unless I get some proof of the "150 catches" statistic I'm going to call it imaginary nonsense. I'm sure he had plenty of catches dropped off him but it's a statistic which you guys have pulled out of thin air.

 

[IndianWillow]

1.5 catches dropped per game off just Akram? Find that astoshingly hard to believe.

Could depend on what is labelled a catch? Lots of matches feature half chances, especially in the slip cordon.

 

[WrexEverything]

Could depend on what is labelled a catch? Lots of matches feature half chances, especially in the slip cordon.

True. Which is why making a blanket and hyperbolic statement that Pakistani fielders "dropped" 150 catches off Wasim in his career is absolutely absurd.

 

[Monsee]

Take your blue glasses off and even check Pak team's fielding in tests to this day (our fielding standards are probably better these days)...next test is starting soon, you will find it out!

As for insults, you should take my comment as a compliment because you are now acting worse!

 

[WrexEverything]

I'm only giving my opinion, that unless there is some sort of proof given I'm not going to believe a random figure of 150+ dropped catches.

Wasim absolutely did suffer from poor catching but you can't just pull up stats from thin air.

 

[as-95]

Don't resort to insults. Stick to the damn debate.

I don't blame him. It's pretty rich to expect people to debate with you if you are typing with blue tinted glasses on. Your agenda is transparent and you come across as very immature when you are typing mindlessly in opposition to Pak Cricket.

 

[Sachin136]

Half-chances don't count as genuine dropped catches. Otherwise most bowlers have at least 1 dropped catch per match if we count very difficult catches.

 

[WrexEverything]

Half-chances don't count as genuine dropped catches. Otherwise most bowlers have at least 1 dropped catch per match if we count very difficult catches.

Exactly

 

[WrexEverything]

I don't blame him. It's pretty rich to expect people to debate with you if you are typing with blue tinted glasses on. Your agenda is transparent and you come across as very immature when you are typing mindlessly in opposition to Pak Cricket.

I have no agenda. I have said repeatedly that Wasim is in my top 5 fast bowlers and I'm a huge fan. The only ones acting immature are you guys throwing insults when you have no proof whatsoever for this mythical "150+ dropped catches" figure.

 

[Monsee]

This is just how our fielding was and still is to an extent:

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x2...tches-on-a-single-day-against-australia_sport

Guys with blue tinted blinds will still argue away anyway!

 

[IndianWillow]

It can be admitted that Wasim suffered from dropped catches (compared to some of his contemporaries), but an arbitrary figure cannot be made up. 150 is a huge figure. Literally applied, those extra wickets would take Akram's career bowling average to 17! More realistic figure would be 50 wickets (which are not half chances).