Crimes/Violence against Women

[MenInG]

We understand that there has been a lot of interest in the horrific attack and resulting death of a young woman - Damini - in India.

The reason for this thread is to allow discussion on the topic of violence against women in ALL parts of the world.

However, given that we have many young PPers on board and we cannot rate threads, pls post on this thread based on following guidelines which will be enforced strictly by Mods:

1. Do not describe any attacks in detail - we know what we are talking about on this thread - we can all read/watch the news

2. Do not denigrate any religion, cast or country


Lets discuss this topic in a mature manner and stay away from any simplistic arguments

Thanks.

 

[MR__KHAN__JI]

A very interesting article I read this morning in the independent.



http://www.independent.co.uk/voices...-india--it-is-endemic-everywhere-8433445.html

Sexual violence is not a cultural phenomenon in India - it is endemic everywhere

We don’t know the name of the 23-year-old student who was raped and killed on a city bus in Delhi.
We do know that, after getting on a bus home after watching a film with a friend, she was tortured so badly that she lost her intestines. Six people – including the bus driver – have been arrested; they have been widely denounced as “animals” on social media. It’s always comforting to think – despite everything that the 20th century should have taught us – that those who commit vile acts are sub-human, are not quite like us, so we can create emotional distance from them. But it was thinking, feeling, living human men who committed this rape, however nauseating it is to accept.

The death of a woman popularly named Damini – “lightning” in Hindi – has provoked thousands to take to India’s streets, furious at endemic and unchecked violence against women. Some have been met with police batons, tear gas and water cannon. But, in the West, Damini’s death has triggered a different response: a sense that this is an Indian-specific problem. “The crime has highlighted the prevalence of sex attacks in India,” says the Daily Telegraph; “India tries to move beyond its rape culture,” says Reuters. Again, it’s comforting to think that this is someone else’s problem, a particular scandal that afflicts a supposedly backward nation. It is an assumption that is as wrong as it is dangerous.

Rape and sexual violence against women are endemic everywhere. Shocked by what happened in India? Take a look at France, that prosperous bastion of European civilisation. In 1999, two then-teenagers – named only as Nina and Stephanie – were raped almost every day for six months. Young men would queue up to rape them, patiently waiting for their friends to finish in secluded basements. After a three-week trial this year, 10 of the 14 accused left the courtroom as free men; the other four were granted lenient sentences of one year at most.

Shocked? Again, let us Brits not get all high and mighty, either. Amnesty International conducted a poll in the United Kingdom a few years ago. Only four per cent of respondents thought that the number of women raped each year exceeded 10,000. But according to the Government’s Action Plan on Violence Against Women and Girls, 80,000 women are raped a year, and 400,000 women are sexually assaulted. It is a pandemic of violence against women that – given its scale – is not discussed nearly enough.

All rape is violence by definition, but particularly horrifying incidents take place here, too. Exactly a year ago, one woman was raped by 21-year-old Mustafa Yussuf in central Manchester; shortly afterwards a passer-by – who the rape survivor thought was coming to help – raped her again as she lay on the floor. Or take 63-year-old Marie Reid, raped and savagely murdered earlier this year by an 18-year-old boy she had treated like a “grandson”.

It’s important to clarify that most rapes – in India or elsewhere – are not carried out by strangers waiting in alleys to pounce on women. It is mostly by people known to the rape survivor or victim; often someone they trust. It is a concept that the law itself took a long time to recognise, which is why – until 1991 – it was legal to rape your wife.

Other myths are even more disturbing. The Amnesty poll found that a third of Britons believed a woman acting flirtatiously was partly or completely to blame for being raped, while over a quarter found women who were wearing revealing clothes or were drunk shared responsibility. This victim-blaming was echoed by a judge at Caernarfon Crown Court a few weeks ago, who told the rapist: “She let herself down badly. She consumed far too much alcohol and took drugs, but she also had the misfortune of meeting you.” A Thames Valley Police poster combating underage drinking featured a young woman being attacked underneath the headline “Her mum bought her the cider”.

If we are to defeat rape, we have to understand where it comes from – and that means linking it to a broader continuum of violence against women. According to the Government’s own estimates, one million women in England and Wales are victims of domestic violence every year.

Those punches, slaps, kicks and bile-filled screams are happening all around us – yes, undoubtedly on our own streets. A quarter of women will face this abuse at some point in their life and – horrifyingly – two women will be murdered by their current or former male partner each week.

It’s not just the overt aggression. It’s the sexual harassment and objectification of women by men that provide fertile ground for this violence. In a poll by End Violence Against Women this year, 41 per cent of women aged between 18 and 34 had experienced unwanted sexual attention in London. Some men may regard a few “jokes” about rape as a bit of harmless banter, but it all helps normalise violence against women.

As a country, we still don’t take rape survivors seriously. A 2009 study revealed that Britain has the lowest conviction rate of 33 European countries: it’s a shockingly pathetic 6.5 per cent. Survivors often struggle with a misplaced sense of shame, of somehow bringing it on themselves, of fear; an all-too pervasive sense of victim-blaming discourages them from coming forward and having to facing down their attacker. If any good is to come from the horrors of the Jimmy Savile scandal, it must be that these voices are taken far more seriously.

But although the voices of women must be heard above all else, men must speak out too. It’s really important that we show solidarity with women, educate each other and challenge prejudice in our ranks. In the US and Australia there are more flourishing movements of men against sexual violence, such as Men Can Stop Rape. But there are similar campaigning groups in Britain such as the White Ribbon Campaign and Respect: they have a crucial role to play, too.

There is nothing inevitable about violence against women, here or anywhere. Struggle by courageous women and their allies has already had an impact. But the worst thing we can do is allow our horror at what happened on that Delhi bus to make us complacent. Let the death of Damini inspire everyone – everywhere – to defeat this horror once and for all.

 

[Namak_Halaal]

Damini case is beyond vexing. I just get angry reading about such vile and inhumane acts.

Whether in India, UK, Pakistan, or Amreeka, no woman, regardless of race, colour, or creed, should ever have to face such barbaric actions.

This is a moment the Indian public must cease. Death for the perpetuators is an easy route out. My opinion, these animals should be castrated and be forced forced to pick up soap for the rest of their lives.

 

[mithun_minhas]

The culture of where women are just seen as objects of desire, baby making machines, washing machines, dish washers, cooking machines... is the reason for all these atrocities on them.

 

[leatherface58]

Damini case is beyond vexing. I just get angry reading about such vile and inhumane acts.

Whether in India, UK, Pakistan, or Amreeka, no woman, regardless of race, colour, or creed, should ever have to face such barbaric actions.

This is a moment the Indian public must cease. Death for the perpetuators is an easy route out. My opinion, these animals should be castrated and be forced forced to pick up soap for the rest of their lives.

Agree completely.

Death will be too easy.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

The culture of where women are just seen as objects of desire, baby making machines, washing machines, dish washers, cooking machines... is the reason for all these atrocities on them.

Really? I live in England and the ads on TV for most of those household chores are squarely aimed at women.

 

[DeadlyVenom]

Really simple philosophy that I and most other have been taught when we were young.

Real men don't hit women.

 

[DeadlyVenom]

@ khan ji

Here is a similar article from the independent.

magazines and businesses falling over one another to demean, insult and offend women in the run up to Christmas.
FHM kicked things off with a fashion feature in which it told men “it’s never acceptable to wear your girlfriend/mother/victim’s socks”. Then, just as they thought they had the market cornered in normalizing gender based violence, enter Virgin Mobile with its advent calendar website gimmick, featuring an image of a man covering a woman’s eyes from behind with a gift box held in his other hand. The caption read: “The Gift of Christmas Surprise…Necklace? Or Chloroform?”

Keen not to miss out on the action, Zoo Australia muscled in with a picture on its Facebook page showing a model split in two at the waist, with readers asked whether they preferred the top or bottom half. Reasons given by men in the comments for choosing the lower half included “cause two holes are better than one”, and “cause it doesn’t have the ability to have its own ****ing opinion”. Others specified the top half because “it can still make me a sandwich”, whilst one commenter suggested that if one hole wasn’t enough, you could just make another one.

Finally a woman sent us a picture of a greetings card she’d found on sale for 13-year-old girls, emblazoned with the words “If you had a rich boyfriend, he’d give you diamonds and rubies. Well maybe next year you will – when you’ve bigger *******!”

Predictably, our highlighting of these issues, all of which have now been officially apologised for, met with the usual stream of “what’s the big deal/get a life/protest about something that matters” responses. Is it really a problem if FHM sticks a rape joke in the bottom corner of an article about what socks to wear? Is it a big deal if a greetings card tells 13-year-old girls they need to grow their “*******” to catch a rich man? Should we be concentrating on more important things than Zoo Australia splitting a woman in half and musing over which bit is best? What does it matter if Virgin Mobile runs an offensive ‘joke’ that seems to make light of rape and domestic violence?

As several people pointed out, it matters because of the tragic case just last year of a man who used chloroform to rape his new wife after she refused to have sex with him. It matters because we are reaching the end of a year in which we have seen what can only be described as a torrent of reports of sexual assaults, paedophilia and abuse going back decades, many of them excused or ignored precisely because of a culture that made light of and normalized such incidents. But regardless of whether such events had hit the headlines recently, it matters because of the twelve thousand women whose stories we have collected this year, poignantly, heartbreakingly testifying to the real-life consequences of the situations and crimes these adverts mock and excuse.

Think that greetings card is just a harmless joke? Tell it to the 15-year-old girl who wrote “I always feel like if I don't look a certain way, if boys don't think I'm 'sexy' or 'hot' then I've failed and it doesn't even matter if I am a doctor or writer, I'll still feel like nothing.”

Think the FHM ‘victim’ joke was just a ‘banterous’ gag? It wouldn’t sound funny to the woman who told us “I have become so used to cat-calls, offensive jokes and even being followed that it doesn’t really register… I’ve been trapped by guys who have pushed me up against walls or grabbed my wrists in order to get attention. You can’t go out without being grabbed.” It is precisely the normalization of the idea of female victims in mainstream culture like this that made the same woman continue: “Even writing this now I am embarrassed because I feel like I’m making a big deal about nothing.”

And no, the Zoo Australia magazine ‘split her into pieces to dehumanize her even further as you objectify her’ and Virgin’s ‘wouldn’t it be completely hilarious if he incapacitated his wife so he could do whatever he wants with her’ gags aren’t ‘lighthearted’ or ‘harmless’ either. Think dehumanizing women in the public sphere, portraying them as sex objects and victims of men and simply vessels to be ****ed or abused or turned into a great big joke is completely harmless? Tell it to the office worker whose boss referred to her by asking a colleague “if big **** has come in yet”. Tell it to the woman who was asked by her boss in front of 30 colleagues “If I ‘wax my crack’”. Tell it to the girl of 10 who was walking home from school when “two older boys said ‘show us your ****’”. Tell it to the child of 13 who didn’t even understand when two men in a white van asked her if she had “a tight *****”. Tell it to the woman who reported being groped by strangers “at least once a week and often much more, regardless of what I wear, where I am, how I behave.” Tell it to the woman who declined to talk to a group of men and was pursued down the street by them, shouting “rape!” Tell it to schoolgirl who was “beaten by her boyfriend” and whose “friends asked her if she was going to stay with him until after the prom so she’d have a date”.

These women might never hit the headlines. But imagine telling it to every single one of them, and have a long, hard think about what they might say, before you come telling me it’s not a big deal.

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices...ustralia-the-12-days-of-misogyny-8406231.html

 

[pakistanalltheway]

Really simple philosophy that I and most other have been taught when we were young.

Real men don't hit women.

exactly

 

[leatherface58]

One factor that empowers rapists is that the girl, once raped, feels so humiliated that she doesn't even tell anyone. It gets worse when some parents tell her not to tell this, in case no one will marry her! That IMO is worse than even the criminals' barbaric acts.

Its gotten better these days when more rape victims come forward and there are support groups. But still, there are situations where society shuns the rape victim as a promiscuous woman who brought about her own downfall.

 

[MR__KHAN__JI]

@ khan ji

Here is a similar article from the independent.



http://www.independent.co.uk/voices...ustralia-the-12-days-of-misogyny-8406231.html

Sickening really.

 

[mithun_minhas]

Really? I live in England and the ads on TV for most of those household chores are squarely aimed at women.

You mean to say that there are no rapes in UK?

The male culture of females being inferior or the attitude of "Women are born to make men happy" will badly effect the psyche of boys who will become men someday. That is what I was trying to say.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

You mean to say that there are no rapes in UK?

The male culture of females being inferior or the attitude of "Women are born to make men happy" will badly effect the psyche of boys who will become men someday. That is what I was trying to say.

I wasn't talking about male or female culture whatever that is. I was just bringing some realistic perspective to this debate as opposed to what makes nice soundbites.

 

[Bhaijaan]

Damini case has shaken me up from within. Cannot believe there are people among us who can do such horrific things to another human, that too an innocent young girl. This happening in any corner of the country would be a shame but occurring in the national capital in a moving bus is just so sad and embarrassing for us all. Just shows how fearless these criminals have become. I think the whole nation is responsible for this and not just the 5-6 men who actually carried it out.. I think we all are criminal today for what has happened, is happening in our country. We have not been able to protect our women, we have been unable to give justice to the victims and we have even been unable to give proper medical treatment to that girl. They took the girl to Singapore, why? What do we lack in that field and why is that so?

Let this never be forgotten. India has to learn its lessons or else there is no point moving forward like sheep.

 

[RexRex]

I was wondering from a woman's perspective - how on earth are-they ever going to get into a bus again ? The first thing anyone would do-is check if public area/transport is safe , see if other people are around.The couple here looked around , saw 6 men and thought all was okay - they turned out to be a gang.Modus operandi is just chilling.
In fact this might have not been reported out of shame if they let her off the bus without any injury.

 

[shaykh1985]

I have stated as much in another thread that sexual assault and domestic abuse of women is a worldwide phenomena and not one related specifically to any community...

There were over 1 million female victims of domestic abuse in the UK in 2011...

Its estimated that there were 400,000 sexual assaults and 80,000 rapes last year in the UK...

On average that is 219 rapes a day and 1,095 sexual assaults a day...

Most of these are committed by a family member or someone close to the family...its just media tend not to focus on this point much cos essentially we wouldn't worry as much...we know our child is safe but if we hear about child groomers approaching schools or pedo teachers then it makes us a lot more worried and naturally sell more papers...

Whats happened in India is horrible...and the men as individuals should be punished...a whole country shouldn't be held accountable...

 

[Jeetu111]

Damini case - sickening. i hope that stern justice is delivered immediately .

rip Damini .

 

[DHONI183]

Very tragic......

There is a whole new direction to this discussion, as was brought up on some TV channel yesterday, and that is the film industry which portrays women as Sheilas, Munnis etc.

Can´t say anything but just thought it will be interesting to discuss.

 

[DHONI183]

We were all brought to this world by a woman after all, a woman who bears our burden for months and then delivers us. What a shame we bring to her name when we assault other women who are virtually the same albeit it different to our mothers in age or relation.

Always think about a woman as someone´s daughter, sister and mother and you will think twice before being violent towards them.

 

[KingKhanWC]

I have stated as much in another thread that sexual assault and domestic abuse of women is a worldwide phenomena and not one related specifically to any community...
There were over 1 million female victims of domestic abuse in the UK in 2011...

Its estimated that there were 400,000 sexual assaults and 80,000 rapes last year in the UK...

On average that is 219 rapes a day and 1,095 sexual assaults a day...

Most of these are committed by a family member or someone close to the family...its just media tend not to focus on this point much cos essentially we wouldn't worry as much...we know our child is safe but if we hear about child groomers approaching schools or pedo teachers then it makes us a lot more worried and naturally sell more papers...

Whats happened in India is horrible...and the men as individuals should be punished...a whole country shouldn't be held accountable...

Some places have a bigger problem than others. It's actually ignoring the scale of the problem by simply saying India is just like any other nation when facts clearly suggest otherwise. There are many reasons as to why there is such a huge problem in India, from poverty to a poor judicial system. The protesters clearly want the country to held accountable for not doing enough to stem the flow of such abuse.

 

[Senman]

Damini case is beyond vexing. I just get angry reading about such vile and inhumane acts.

Whether in India, UK, Pakistan, or Amreeka, no woman, regardless of race, colour, or creed, should ever have to face such barbaric actions.

This is a moment the Indian public must cease. Death for the perpetuators is an easy route out. My opinion, these animals should be castrated and be forced forced to pick up soap for the rest of their lives.

Agree, probably for the first time, well said.

 

[shaykh1985]

Some places have a bigger problem than others. It's actually ignoring the scale of the problem by simply saying India is just like any other nation when facts clearly suggest otherwise. There are many reasons as to why there is such a huge problem in India, from poverty to a poor judicial system. The protesters clearly want the country to held accountable for not doing enough to stem the flow of such abuse.

Do you mind presenting those facts?...

What 'facts'?...and thats a genuine question...this reeks of moral panic to me...

Are you suggesting that 80,000 rapes which are an estimate is not a large number in the UK?...

India's population is 1,241,491,960 based on its most recent census in 2011...

The UK's is 62,641,000

The UK has around 5% of India's population so to have as bad a problem as the UK then India would need 1,600,000 rapes a year to compare...and these are estimates which aren't facts...

That may very well be the case but there are no statistics to support it...

What we do know is India has the second highest number of rapes reported overall behind the US...the percentage of population involved is in brackets...

21,397 which essentially doesn't actually mean much (0.0017%) when the UK has 15,084 (0.02%)...even worse is Sweden which has a population 9,453,000 with 5,960 reported rapes (0.06%)...

However even analysing the above is wrought with problems...Sweden for instance has a broader definition for rape...some things considered sexual assault can fall within the definition of rape elsewhere which makes cross comparisons a difficult thing to do...

You also have the issue of women not reporting rape and essentially this is a problem everywhere...less than 1 in 5 are estimated to report rape here in the UK...now naturally these rates are likely a lot higher in India but essentially we're relying on estimates and speculation not facts...so how many police don't take a claim seriously?...the stigma of a raped woman etc...

The interesting thing imo is that the supposed increase in rape in India can even be argued as more women reporting rape...or more women having their claims dealt with...its speculation from another perspective but none are facts...

Sweden for instance may have high rates because it is in fact a progressive country where women feel they can report rape...

On the other topic on conviction rates they are pretty low across the board...India isn't alone in this problem...

 

[mani1]

Official figures show that 228,650 of the total 256,329 violent crimes recorded last year in India were against women.
The real figure is thought to be much higher as so many women are reluctant to report attacks to the police.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...teenager-commits-suicide-after-gang-rape.html

 

[James]

Really simple philosophy that I and most other have been taught when we were young.

Real men don't hit women.

Well-said and succint.

 

[Robert]

Death for the perpetuators is an easy route out. My opinion, these animals should be castrated and be forced forced to pick up soap for the rest of their lives.

That's based on vengeance. Remember what Gandhi said about an eye for an eye leaving the whole world blind.

This incident can be described as a symptom of the patriarchal / misogynistic socio-political system. I would not suggest letting these individual perpetrators off the hook.

But if we want this stuff not to happen, dismissing it as the one-off actions of incomprehensibly evil individuals doesn't help.

 

[kingkhan1996]

rip damini, I know it happens a lot across the world but does India have more of these cases compared to Pakistan? considering the cultures are similar

 

[KingKhanWC]

Do you mind presenting those facts?...

What 'facts'?...and thats a genuine question...this reeks of moral panic to me...

Are you suggesting that 80,000 rapes which are an estimate is not a large number in the UK?...

India's population is 1,241,491,960 based on its most recent census in 2011...

The UK's is 62,641,000

The UK has around 5% of India's population so to have as bad a problem as the UK then India would need 1,600,000 rapes a year to compare...and these are estimates which aren't facts...

That may very well be the case but there are no statistics to support it...

What we do know is India has the second highest number of rapes reported overall behind the US...the percentage of population involved is in brackets...

21,397 which essentially doesn't actually mean much (0.0017%) when the UK has 15,084 (0.02%)...even worse is Sweden which has a population 9,453,000 with 5,960 reported rapes (0.06%)...

However even analysing the above is wrought with problems...Sweden for instance has a broader definition for rape...some things considered sexual assault can fall within the definition of rape elsewhere which makes cross comparisons a difficult thing to do...

You also have the issue of women not reporting rape and essentially this is a problem everywhere...less than 1 in 5 are estimated to report rape here in the UK...now naturally these rates are likely a lot higher in India but essentially we're relying on estimates and speculation not facts...so how many police don't take a claim seriously?...the stigma of a raped woman etc...

The interesting thing imo is that the supposed increase in rape in India can even be argued as more women reporting rape...or more women having their claims dealt with...its speculation from another perspective but none are facts...

Sweden for instance may have high rates because it is in fact a progressive country where women feel they can report rape...

On the other topic on conviction rates they are pretty low across the board...India isn't alone in this problem...

I wasn't really focusing on just rapes but the general treatment of women in India. For the record I'm not suggesting Indian people are naturally worse towards women but it happens to be the case.

It's very difficult to get accurate statistics on rapes as most rapes aren't reported and it would be fair to assume in India where the judicial system is a farce the number would be even higher. I can't remember the exact figure but it wasn't much lower than a 100,000 rape cases still in progress within the courts. This is not to do with the population but the slow criminal system. The UK doesn't have the same problem which means women are more likely to seek justice if they can see evidence of getting a fair and quick hearing.

There are many other crimes/abuses against women which are either non-existent or not near the percentage figure in the UK.

Sexual harassment in public is a big issue in India, also known as 'eve-teasing'. In the UK women on the whole can go about their daily lives without having to face this. You then have other issues such as acid attacks, forced marriages, domestic violence, to rarer but strange practices such as bride burnings. Some of these do happen in other nations but when you put it all together it does show a genuine problem in India regarding the general treatment of many women.

According to one report there is over 1 million child prostitutes in India.

You then have common problems around the world such as the sexualisation of women in society.

 

[shaykh1985]

That's based on vengeance. Remember what Gandhi said about an eye for an eye leaving the whole world blind.

This incident can be described as a symptom of the patriarchal / misogynistic socio-political system. I would not suggest letting these individual perpetrators off the hook.

But if we want this stuff not to happen, dismissing it as the one-off actions of incomprehensibly evil individuals doesn't help.

Nice display of superiority...what of the US which has 89,421 reported rapes last year?...blaming everything on labeled 'patriarchal' societies is an oversimplification...US population is 311,591,917...that's 0.03%...India is at 0.0017%...so is it simply India that is patriarchal?...

How do you explain the high prevalence of rape and domestic abuse in nations that are not deemed to have patriarchal/misogynistic systems?...

Here's something on Britains domestic abuse problem...

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-of-domestic-violence-in-britain-8348429.html

High rates, poor police work, estimated high rates of unreported crime...

Amnesty did a report showing the same patriarchal attitudes exist here frankly...

26%) of those asked said that they thought a women was partially or totally responsible for being raped if she was wearing sexy or revealing clothing, and more than one in five (22%) held the same view if a woman had had many sexual partners.

http://www.amnesty.org.uk/news_details.asp?NewsID=16618

How do you explain the likes of Sweden having high rates of rape?...

 

[Namak_Halaal]

That's based on vengeance. Remember what Gandhi said about an eye for an eye leaving the whole world blind.

This incident can be described as a symptom of the patriarchal / misogynistic socio-political system. I would not suggest letting these individual perpetrators off the hook.

But if we want this stuff not to happen, dismissing it as the one-off actions of incomprehensibly evil individuals doesn't help.

I would say it's based on setting an example by instilling fear, and even if vengeance, then it's fully-fledged warranted.

To hell with the lovey dovey approach, Damini was someones Daughter and Sister.

No mercy.

 

[cricketworm]

I think very strict punishment is the only way to go. I was against this before but now I think torture against torture is unfortunately the way to go. The reason why I say this because people's psyche has become numb! There have been far too many loopholes in justice system that people can get away with these ridiculous crimes.

If not torture then hanging must be done, sadly that's the only way these things will be reduced.

 

[shaykh1985]

I wasn't really focusing on just rapes but the general treatment of women in India. For the record I'm not suggesting Indian people are naturally worse towards women but it happens to be the case.

It's very difficult to get accurate statistics on rapes as most rapes aren't reported and it would be fair to assume in India where the judicial system is a farce the number would be even higher. I can't remember the exact figure but it wasn't much lower than a 100,000 rape cases still in progress within the courts. This is not to do with the population but the slow criminal system. The UK doesn't have the same problem which means women are more likely to seek justice if they can see evidence of getting a fair and quick hearing.

There are many other crimes/abuses against women which are either non-existent or not near the percentage figure in the UK.

Sexual harassment in public is a big issue in India, also known as 'eve-teasing'. In the UK women on the whole can go about their daily lives without having to face this. You then have other issues such as acid attacks, forced marriages, domestic violence, to rarer but strange practices such as bride burnings. Some of these do happen in other nations but when you put it all together it does show a genuine problem in India regarding the general treatment of many women.

According to one report there is over 1 million child prostitutes in India.

You then have common problems around the world such as the sexualisation of women in society.

Read my post to Robert...

Domestic violence is a MASSIVE issue in the UK...its reported that there are 1.2m victims of domestic abuse a year and that one in five calls the police receive are related to domestic violence...

The manner in which they are handled here has been slammed...

There are huge numbers of unreported rapes here...and we also have a culture of not believing the 'victim'...this is existent everywhere sometimes subconsciously...

Worth noting that in 2008 only 6.5% of reported rapes led to a conviction here...

The Guardian reported:

Victims were found to experience delays, "unpleasant environments", inappropriate behaviour by professionals, insensitive questioning during interviews and "judgmental or disbelieving attitudes" when coming forward with complaints of rape.

As a result, between half and two-thirds of rape cases did not proceed beyond the investigation stage. The majority of victims decide to withdraw their complaints, while high levels of rape complaints are essentially ignored, with reports pointing to scepticism on the part of the police and "the view that the victim lacks credibility".

So this superiority that Western observers feel when looking abroad is nonsensical really...rape is poorly handled here...a large proportion of victims do not report rape...conviction rates are low...these are the same criticisms being levelled at India right now...these are valid criticisms but they are not uniquely Indian and that is the point...

There is an article going round which lists 10 reasons why India has a rape problem...if you switch the name India with any other nation then the same would apply...

Rape is not culture specific...

You bring in other forms of abuse...and some are applicable to India...rape isn't...infanticide is for instance a legitimate criticism which has a cultural link...

 

[leatherface58]

rip damini, I know it happens a lot across the world but does India have more of these cases compared to Pakistan? considering the cultures are similar

For God's sake, leave India v Pakistan out of this.

 

[James]

I would say it's based on setting an example by instilling fear, and even if vengeance, then it's fully-fledged warranted.

To hell with the lovey dovey approach, Damini was someones Daughter and Sister.

No mercy.

I disagree. The establishment proves that it is better by setting the example. It therefore cannot legislate itself as personal, barbaric or murderous - it has be distanced, objective and (relatively speaking) civilised.

Otherwise, how can a society expect its citizens to improve their behaviour when the establishment acts in the same fashion as the citizens.

 

[kingkhan1996]

For God's sake, leave India v Pakistan out of this.

Nothing to do with it

 

[IgnitedMind]

This is a sad incident. Few things I am ashamed of my country.. We had these kinda incidents from times immemorial.... But Damini has given us a chance for Indians to change things in our country. India had a very low Key New year.....students....employees are on the roads protesting everyday....I genuinely hope something comes out of this movement ......Almost feels like the whole country is participating....Time for change when the Iron is hot. Strict laws...and also time for parents and society in general to introspect on why they are part of the society where these kind of things happen..and how can they educate their children. Even for a change...Media seems to be in right path for a change...indo -pak...sachin retirement...nothing mattered...Arnab Goswami grilling presidents son was just brilliant...

IF we cannot grab this chance.... We will never change as a society !!!!! As I said...I am ashamed...but I will be proud if people come out victorious...Young generation taking things into hand is great to see!!

 

[KingKhanWC]

Read my post to Robert...

Domestic violence is a MASSIVE issue in the UK...its reported that there are 1.2m victims of domestic abuse a year and that one in five calls the police receive are related to domestic violence...

The manner in which they are handled here has been slammed...

There are huge numbers of unreported rapes here...and we also have a culture of not believing the 'victim'...this is existent everywhere sometimes subconsciously...

Worth noting that in 2008 only 6.5% of reported rapes led to a conviction here...

The Guardian reported:



So this superiority that Western observers feel when looking abroad is nonsensical really...rape is poorly handled here...a large proportion of victims do not report rape...conviction rates are low...these are the same criticisms being levelled at India right now...these are valid criticisms but they are not uniquely Indian and that is the point...

There is an article going round which lists 10 reasons why India has a rape problem...if you switch the name India with any other nation then the same would apply...

Rape is not culture specific...

You bring in other forms of abuse...and some are applicable to India...rape isn't...infanticide is for instance a legitimate criticism which has a cultural link...

Disagree.

Most women in India and Pakistan wouldn't even consider reporting domestic violence, they take it as the norm which is extremely sad . A man slapping a woman in such cultures is considered as the husbands right to do so, not the case in the UK which is why domestic violence is reported.

You have mentioned another worrying issue of female infanticide. Add this to the others I mentioned and you can't argue the mal treatment of women in India is no different to the UK. There is a clear cultural difference on how women are treated.

I repeat this isn't a blind attack on India but it's what it is. Who knows in 50 years it could be very different but it's going to take at least this long.

 

[leatherface58]

Nothing to do with it

Okay I apologize if that wasn't your intention.

 

[shaykh1985]

Nothing to do with it

Rape statistics are a tough one cos of the large number of unreported rapes...

The irony is that increasing rates of rape reported might actually be an improvement as it indicates that rapes are being reported rather than actually increasing....

Heres one source...

Aurat Foundation’s report titled Situation of Violence against Women in Pakistan 2010 discloses that Punjab dominates with 2,690 registered cases out of a total of 4,069 incidents in various parts of Pakistan.

So 4,069 in 176,745,364...thats 0.002%...make of it what you like...a lot go unreported...the judicial system is a mess...

Conviction rates are around 3%...the UK is 6% and India is 26%...of course looking at these rates isn't black and white although i've seen this 26% figure bandied about by American publications as a criticism when in fact the US has a much lower conviction rate...

Conviction rates of reported rapes is an odd measure cos what if half of those reported rapes are false...you can't always hold police responsible for lower conviction rates...just as you can't always praise police for high conviction rates...both measures have their own problems...

So in short...its impossible to tell how similar Pakistan and India's rates are...or even how similar their rates are to the West...statistically India come off better but then stats have their limitations...

 

[Kwremb]

Looks the bad judicial system in india is mainly to blame here because reading some report conviction rates are extremely low. If the offenders feel they can get away with it will be hard to control these issues. Maybe corporal punishment can be used in the short term to negate the lack of judicial process.

 

[shaykh1985]

Disagree.

Most women in India and Pakistan wouldn't even consider reporting domestic violence, they take it as the norm which is extremely sad . A man slapping a woman in such cultures is considered as the husbands right to do so, not the case in the UK which is why domestic violence is reported.

You have mentioned another worrying issue of female infanticide. Add this to the others I mentioned and you can't argue the mal treatment of women in India is no different to the UK. There is a clear cultural difference on how women are treated.

I repeat this isn't a blind attack on India but it's what it is. Who knows in 50 years it could be very different but it's going to take at least this long.

Hitting a woman isn't a unique thing in India...domestic violence here in the UK is very often not reported...and it is dealt with poorly by the police...

Domestic violence unfortunately is a reality worldwide...this is a human problem and isn't fixed to any society...

The issue I have is with headlines such as 'Ending India's Rape Culture'...and '10 Reasons Indians Rape'...

There is no such unique culture...all nations are full of rapists and domestic abusers...and all have different cultures...rape and violence towards women have occurred since the beginning of time...

Infanticide is a unique characteristic and thus 'Ending India's Infanticide culture' has more of a basis...although even then it is important to see it as a marginal view and not one to label whole communities with...

 

[shaykh1985]

Looks the bad judicial system in india is mainly to blame here because reading some report conviction rates are extremely low. If the offenders feel they can get away with it will be hard to control these issues. Maybe corporal punishment can be used in the short term to negate the lack of judicial process.

Oddly its not actually that low...rape conviction rates are low in most places...and this can be interpreted in many ways...

Here are some stats from the UK...

6.5% of reported rapes lead to a conviction...India is at 26%...

60% of those that do reach court lead to a conviction and most are courtesy of a guilty plea...

Only a quarter of allegations actually make it to court...40% of the time it is due to insufficient evidence and most concerning is 35% of victims withdraw their complaint...

 

[MR__KHAN__JI]

Hitting a woman isn't a unique thing in India...domestic violence here in the UK is very often not reported...and it is dealt with poorly by the police...

Domestic violence unfortunately is a reality worldwide...this is a human problem and isn't fixed to any society...

The issue I have is with headlines such as 'Ending India's Rape Culture'...and '10 Reasons Indians Rape'...

There is no such unique culture...all nations are full of rapists and domestic abusers...and all have different cultures...rape and violence towards women have occurred since the beginning of time...

Infanticide is a unique characteristic and thus 'Ending India's Infanticide culture' has more of a basis...although even then it is important to see it as a marginal view and not one to label whole communities with...

Women are abused more in the sub-continent.

 

[KingKhanWC]

Hitting a woman isn't a unique thing in India...domestic violence here in the UK is very often not reported...and it is dealt with poorly by the police...

Domestic violence unfortunately is a reality worldwide...this is a human problem and isn't fixed to any society...

The issue I have is with headlines such as 'Ending India's Rape Culture'...and '10 Reasons Indians Rape'...

There is no such unique culture...all nations are full of rapists and domestic abusers...and all have different cultures...rape and violence towards women have occurred since the beginning of time...

Infanticide is a unique characteristic and thus 'Ending India's Infanticide culture' has more of a basis...although even then it is important to see it as a marginal view and not one to label whole communities with...

You miss the point. Hitting a woman isn't unique to any nation but women accepting physical abuse is a cultural norm in the sub continent but not in the UK. It's not about the abuse but how it's seen in society. Only once you change this will things improve. If people(men and women) continue to feel it's not a huge crime if a wife is slapped it will have huge negative connotations for women living in such cultures.

 

[hafeezrocks]

Women are abused more in the sub-continent.

I think women are abused more or less in same proportions everywhere however the difference is that an average Ind/Pak woman is not financially independent and thus she has to bear all the abuse that gets thrown her way , there is no way out for them and hence their misery is never ending ... However the Women say in Uk/Us are mostly independent in financial terms and are thus not obliged to continue suffering abuse and can move out of a violent relationship anytime .

 

[MR__KHAN__JI]

I think women are abused more or less in same proportions everywhere however the difference is that an average Ind/Pak woman is not financially independent and thus she has to bear all the abuse that gets thrown her way , there is no way out for them and hence their misery is never ending ... However the Women say in Uk/Us are mostly independent in financial terms and are thus not obliged to continue suffering abuse and can move out of a violent relationship anytime .

net net - women are more abused on the subcontinent?

 

[Kwremb]

Oddly its not actually that low...rape conviction rates are low in most places...and this can be interpreted in many ways...

Here are some stats from the UK...

6.5% of reported rapes lead to a conviction...India is at 26%...

60% of those that do reach court lead to a conviction and most are courtesy of a guilty plea...

Only a quarter of allegations actually make it to court...40% of the time it is due to insufficient evidence and most concerning is 35% of victims withdraw their complaint...

Maybe you're right but I've read a lot articles regarding this where in India a lot of politicians are sexual offenders and whenever a girl goes to report rape/sexual abuse the police always ask why was she inviting trouble/did she dress loose etc. and sometimes their family/society give only 2 options, either withdraw the case or marry the rapist. In worst case scenarios the police rape the victim in jail. These are issues deep rooted in Indian societies and I doubt how it compares with the rest of the world but certainly doesn't give much hope for women in India. That's why I suggested maybe corporal punishment can be implemented in the short term until judiciary/police are reformed.

 

[Robert]

Nice display of superiority...what of the US which has 89,421 reported rapes last year?...blaming everything on labeled 'patriarchal' societies is an oversimplification...US population is 311,591,917...that's 0.03%...India is at 0.0017%...so is it simply India that is patriarchal?...

I didn't even mention India. I mentioned patriarchy.

Please stop trying to read my mind, because in this case you have not succeeded, and please also stop trying to put racism in my mouth.

 

[shaykh1985]

Maybe you're right but I've read a lot articles regarding this where in India a lot of politicians are sexual offenders and whenever a girl goes to report rape/sexual abuse the police always ask why was she inviting trouble/did she dress loose etc. and sometimes their family/society give only 2 options, either withdraw the case or marry the rapist. In worst case scenarios the police rape the victim in jail. These are issues deep rooted in Indian societies and I doubt how it compares with the rest of the world but certainly doesn't give much hope for women in India. That's why I suggested maybe corporal punishment can be implemented in the short term until judiciary/police are reformed.

In regards to your initial comment...

Juries, reflecting a belief among the public in a number of "rape myths", can be reluctant to convict. Research has found that a third of people in the UK believe a woman is partially or totally responsible for being raped if she has been flirtatious. Almost the same number think she should shoulder some blame if she was drunk.

There is a reason 35% withdraw their original complaint...

Delays, "unpleasant environments", inappropriate behaviour by professionals, insensitive questioning and "judgmental or disbelieving attitudes" were all found to have been inflicted on victims.

India has its problems but essentially if one looks every country has its problems dealing with rape and abuse of women...

 

[Markhor]

Looks the bad judicial system in india is mainly to blame here because reading some report conviction rates are extremely low. If the offenders feel they can get away with it will be hard to control these issues. Maybe corporal punishment can be used in the short term to negate the lack of judicial process.

The judges turn a blind eye, the doctors are unsympathetic to rape victims and the police are corrupt to the core in India from what I've read.

There were more than 635 reported rapes in Delhi last year, but only one conviction. Last week a two-year-old girl was raped to death in Gujarat while the victim of another gang rape committed suicide. Her choice was to drop the charges or marry one of her attackers.

There was one case where a rape victim had to undergo rather hideous tests in which the doctor tested a woman's private parts to see whether it was 'habituated to sexual intercourse'.

Over the years, rape has become institutionalised in India and the authorities have either turned a blind eye or have been involved. There are numerous cases of women who have been raped, gone to the police, been put in police cells and then gang raped by the police officers which is reprehensible, so police reform is a must.

India has a huge opportunity here, to strike whilst the iron is hot and introduce wide-ranging reforms for women's rights - this happened in the capital Delhi so it sent shockwaves throughout the country. It may even have regional consequences but I have little trust in Indian nor other subcontinental politicians to do anything substantial to emancipate women.

 

[James]

Stop playing the victim shakyh, you guys are more than informed and mature enough to have a debate without this superiority/inferiority rubbish. Detracting from the read.

 

[shaykh1985]

You miss the point. Hitting a woman isn't unique to any nation but women accepting physical abuse is a cultural norm in the sub continent but not in the UK. It's not about the abuse but how it's seen in society. Only once you change this will things improve. If people(men and women) continue to feel it's not a huge crime if a wife is slapped it will have huge negative connotations for women living in such cultures.

Most woman regardless of culture know its not acceptable to receive a beatdown...but in an abusive relationship they begin to accept it...

Anyhow check these...its one poll but a concerning one...

"Domestic violence is not acceptable except if one partner has been unfaithful"

30% of men said yes
31% of women said yes

"Domestic violence is behind closed doors and should be for the partners to sort out themselves"

53% of men said yes
45% of women said yes

And this leads to the issue of non reporting:

"The police should always be called to incidents of domestic violence"

26% of men said yes
32% of women said yes

Of this sample 24% of the women said they were victims of a slap/punch or kick...44% were victims of name calling...10% of repeated violence and 8% of rape...all these applied to someone they were living with...

The majority of violence and abuse takes place within the home...and this is pretty much everywhere...the rates are pretty concerning wherever you look...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/2752507.stm

 

[shaykh1985]

Stop playing the victim shakyh, you guys are more than informed and mature enough to have a debate without this superiority/inferiority rubbish. Detracting from the read.

It's not playing victim...I have no stake in defending India...my simple point is that the world is generally a bad place for women...

All I'm stating is I find it rich that India's problem be treated as unique...I'm not stating it doesn't have a problem...

We have a long way to go here in the UK before we can say we deal with rape effectively wouldn't you agree?...

 

[Namak_Halaal]

The judges turn a blind eye, the doctors are unsympathetic to rape victims and the police are corrupt to the core in India from what I've read.

There were more than 635 reported rapes in Delhi last year, but only one conviction. Last week a two-year-old girl was raped to death in Gujarat while the victim of another gang rape committed suicide. Her choice was to drop the charges or marry one of her attackers.

There was one case where a rape victim had to undergo rather hideous tests in which the doctor tested a woman's private parts to see whether it was 'habituated to sexual intercourse'.

Over the years, rape has become institutionalised in India and the authorities have either turned a blind eye or have been involved. There are numerous cases of women who have been raped, gone to the police, been put in police cells and then gang raped by the police officers which is reprehensible, so police reform is a must.

India has a huge opportunity here, to strike whilst the iron is hot and introduce wide-ranging reforms for women's rights - this happened in the capital Delhi so it sent shockwaves throughout the country. It may even have regional consequences but I have little trust in Indian nor other subcontinental politicians to do anything substantial to emancipate women.

Check this out:

United Nations figures show 1.8 cases of rape for every 100,000 in India, compared with 63 in Sweden, 29 in the U.K. and 27 in the U.S. Most instances of rape go unreported in India.

Then this:

India has about 15 judges for each million of its 1.2 billion people, according to UN data. In China, there are about 159 judges for each million people, while in the U.S. the figure is about 108.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-12-28/gang-raped-new-delhi-woman-dies-in-singapore-hospital.html

 

[James]

We have a long way to go here in the UK before we can say we deal with rape effectively wouldn't you agree?...

Who said that we did?

There is probably an argument to say that the UK is a less misogynistic culture than the subcontinent though. I don't see how one is taking a superior white western perspective in claiming this.

 

[Kwremb]

In regards to your initial comment...



There is a reason 35% withdraw their original complaint...



India has its problems but essentially if one looks every country has its problems dealing with rape and abuse of women...

Again you may be right about rest of the world but I think in India the laws do not get implemented simply because of corruption and the authorities themselves are involved and the public/society give cushion to the corrupt authorities/politicians with their misogynic views. That's why I think corporal punishment may be the way to go in the short term.

 

[shaykh1985]

I didn't even mention India. I mentioned patriarchy.

Please stop trying to read my mind, because in this case you have not succeeded, and please also stop trying to put racism in my mouth.

I take back my superiority comment...would you agree that rape and domestic abuse is a problem in ALL societies...

 

[KingKhanWC]

Most woman regardless of culture know its not acceptable to receive a beatdown...but in an abusive relationship they begin to accept it...

Anyhow check these...its one poll but a concerning one...

"Domestic violence is not acceptable except if one partner has been unfaithful"

30% of men said yes
31% of women said yes

"Domestic violence is behind closed doors and should be for the partners to sort out themselves"

53% of men said yes
45% of women said yes

And this leads to the issue of non reporting:

"The police should always be called to incidents of domestic violence"

26% of men said yes
32% of women said yes

Of this sample 24% of the women said they were victims of a slap/punch or kick...44% were victims of name calling...10% of repeated violence and 8% of rape...all these applied to someone they were living with...

The majority of violence and abuse takes place within the home...and this is pretty much everywhere...the rates are pretty concerning wherever you look...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/2752507.stm

It's an interesting poll, thanks.

I've never really figured out why a woman with no children and not married would constantly take physical abuse by her male partner indefinitely but this does happen in the UK. Imo it's mainly down to fear. Married women with children mostly take it to keep the family together.

The sub-continent is mainly a patriarchal society which is why women take a certain level of physical abuse. If the man is considered to be superior or have authority over a woman the society will see harm in physical abuse. Only when the woman is equal will society be against it.

The other issue is a concept of 'izzat' (shame). It's a pretty disgusting cultural norm where something happening to a woman brings shame on the whole family. Often the a victim of rape in the sub-continent goes down the path of suicide and in some case family members such as the father also go down the same path. This leads to strict control of the females in the household, many times physical abuse is used as a control mechanism. The problem still exists with UK 2nd generation Asians.

There is an awful lot of Indian/Pak women in the UK who are in womens shelters because of this. This is not an issue in the 'British culture'. A good read here.

http://humanrightsandequalitieschar... - A National Issue by Jasvinder Sanghera.pdf

 

[shaykh1985]

It's an interesting poll, thanks.

I've never really figured out why a woman with no children and not married would constantly take physical abuse by her male partner indefinitely but this does happen in the UK. Imo it's mainly down to fear. Married women with children mostly take it to keep the family together.

The sub-continent is mainly a patriarchal society which is why women take a certain level of physical abuse. If the man is considered to be superior or have authority over a woman the society will see harm in physical abuse. Only when the woman is equal will society be against it.

The other issue is a concept of 'izzat' (shame). It's a pretty disgusting cultural norm where something happening to a woman brings shame on the whole family. Often the a victim of rape in the sub-continent goes down the path of suicide and in some case family members such as the father also go down the same path. This leads to strict control of the females in the household, many times physical abuse is used as a control mechanism. The problem still exists with UK 2nd generation Asians.

There is an awful lot of Indian/Pak women in the UK who are in womens shelters because of this. This is not an issue in the 'British culture'. A good read here.

http://humanrightsandequalitieschar... - A National Issue by Jasvinder Sanghera.pdf

Cos they are under control...abuse inevitably leads to control...and fear...some women are convinced to believe that their partners abuse is a result of love among all sorts of other factors...

For those who are abusive they will exert control and their superiority regardless of whether society accepts it or not...

I agree that the subcontinent has additional factors which contribute to maintaining abuse...I know a girl myself who has got back with her husband because her own family ostracised her for separating from her physically abusive husband...apparently the prospect of their daughter being a single mother was worse than her being in an abusive marriage...so I do agree...and this is completely abhorrent...and thanks for the study...the notion that suicide is preferable to dishonouring the family is a concerning one...

But I will maintain that domestic abuse is general for the most part...and attitudes aren't radically dissimilar...

Rape and domestic abuse are a lot more common than statistics present and that is in most societies...

This isn't to say the Indians shouldn't be asking for improvements and solutions...they should be...just like we should be here in Britain...its all and well talking about backward ways of dealing with rape in the 3rd world but the 1st world is far from solving the problem itself...

 

[DeadlyVenom]

I don't think its just because of a patriarchal society necessarily. I'm becoming more and more dismayed at the way women are allowing themselves to be treated in the UK and through other western media.

I see young bright girls allowing themselves to be called hoes,B.itches and other derogatory terms and dismiss at as being a laugh. I see women being respected because of who they are sleeping with and being the sexual object as being an acceptable career choice.

Women calling themselves the C word and acting uncouth and dirty just to please men.

Its really sad and these submissive females allow men to walk all over them from a young age.

There was a report out in the Scottish news that stated that domestic violence goes sky high after an old firm match. I was astounded to see females in work APOLOGISE for the behaviour of men as football was important to them.

I find myself cringing when I hear the phrase 'smash her backdoors in' and see women laughing on the TV. It seems they have accepted themselves as inferior beings.

No wonder in younger males they don't respect women.

We need our females to respect themselves too and not let society dictate how they should thing about themselves.

 

[MR__KHAN__JI]

I don't think its because of a patriarchal society necessarily. I'm becoming more and more dismayed at the way women are allowing themselves to be treated in the UK and through other western media.

I see young bright girls allowing themselves to be called hoes,B.itches and other derogatory terms and dismiss at as being a laugh. I see women being respected because of who they are sleeping with and being the sexual object as being an acceptable career choice.

Women calling themselves the C word and acting uncouth and dirty just to please men.

Its really sad and these submissive females allow men to walk all over them from a young age.

There was a report out in the Scottish news that stated that domestic violence goes sky high after an old firm match. I was astounded to see females in work APOLOGISE for the behaviour of men as football was important to them.

We need our females to respect themselves too!!

Everything you have said is true. Apart from your first sentence.

Patriarchal society is absolutely fundamental to the treatment of women in the sub-continent.

 

[Namak_Halaal]

I disagree. The establishment proves that it is better by setting the example. It therefore cannot legislate itself as personal, barbaric or murderous - it has be distanced, objective and (relatively speaking) civilised.

Otherwise, how can a society expect its citizens to improve their behaviour when the establishment acts in the same fashion as the citizens.

There is only one known effective way to control/discipline society - fear.

Certain crimes are the exception to setting the better example - rape is one of them.

 

[James]

There is only one known effective way to control/discipline society - fear.

I agree with this point in principle. Everything that has been designated a crime has a punishment put in place as a deterrent.

Certain crimes are the exception to setting the better example - rape is one of them.

I see it the opposite way. Surely the greatest crimes that citizens can commit against one another represent the instances where the society absolutely has to set the better example.

Eye for an eye and the whole world goes blind, no doubt about it.

 

[shaykh1985]

Who said that we did?

There is probably an argument to say that the UK is a less misogynistic culture than the subcontinent though. I don't see how one is taking a superior white western perspective in claiming this.

Its not really a race thing...most societies tend to look outwardly rather than inwardly...

So for instance we sometimes observe the 'other' as groups...so Indians have a rape problem while in Britain we have a whole host of depraved individuals each and every time instead...

I'll give one such example from living in Georgia...an American girl was moaning about a Georgian guy who was trying to work game and it was unwanted attention...she then proceeded to go on a tirade about Georgian men...I asked whether she had ever received unwanted attention when she was in the US...she replied in the affirmative but still didn't seem to realise that was generalising a whole culture...

A lot of individual experiences of people became Georgians are this Georgians are that...my point is that its commonplace for people to observe issues from the 'other' and make them into specified traits...

 

[Robert]

I take back my superiority comment...

Fair enough.

would you agree that rape and domestic abuse is a problem in ALL societies...

Yes, I concur.

I am curious as to why Sweden has such a high incidence of reported rape. It may be their their police are more enlightened than those in the UK, and so more rape victims are prepared to come forward and confront their attacker.

 

[dzor]

One of the thing I must ask, my friend tells me this, Do Women have more rights then men? For example If your a women and you attack a man first, nobody says nothing, but if you protect yourself everybody blames the man or either says that he shouldn't have protected himself, even though the Women attacked him first, and if a Man attacks a women , everyone blames the mans for starting an attack, whilst if it was a Women most people wouldn't say nothing, or wouldn't criticize her as much as the man? Do you agree?

P.S : I am against any sorts of attack against anyone unless it's for self defense, regardless if they are a man or a woman

 

[Namak_Halaal]

I see it the opposite way. Surely the greatest crimes that citizens can commit against one another represent the instances where the society absolutely has to set the better example.

Then how comes Rape is on the increase in the UK?

UK is considered to be a developed and educated nation, setting better examples both domestically and internationally, yet rape is on the up?

Something doesn't add up. Either we as a society are not setting the right example, in which case what is the better example? Or setting better examples plain and simply do not work in the case of Rape.

Eye for an eye and the whole world goes blind, no doubt about it.

It's a case of turning a blind eye more than anything.

 

[shaykh1985]

Then how comes Rape is on the increase in the UK?

UK is considered to be a developed and educated nation, setting better examples both domestically and internationally, yet rape is on the up?

Something doesn't add up. Either we as a society are not setting the right example, in which case what is the better example? Or setting better examples plain and simply do not work in the case of Rape.



It's a case of turning a blind eye more than anything.

Rape has always existed...its growth rate statistically is most likely growth in reportage rather than growth in actuality...

The thing with growing rates is often they function as a scare tactic but in many ways they can actually be indicators that women are actually more comfortable with reporting...

What remains concerning however is not the growth in reports but the number of reports that actually lead to convictions...while it is possible that there are many false claims that 6% conviction is still a major concern considering 35% of women who complain withdraw their complaint...

 

[shaykh1985]

Fair enough.



Yes, I concur.

I am curious as to why Sweden has such a high incidence of reported rape. It may be their their police are more enlightened than those in the UK, and so more rape victims are prepared to come forward and confront their attacker.

There are some aspects defined as sexual assault in some countries that are defined as rape in Sweden...their broader definition could actually be a factor in why their numbers are higher...

The other is what you have said which is that its actually probably a positive sign...Swedish women come forward more, don't have to deal with stigma, police are more competent...

Its likely that a country like Sweden which has a high rate is probably more accurate and maybe less than some other countries...

 

[KingKhanWC]

One of the thing I must ask, my friend tells me this, Do Women have more rights then men? For example If your a women and you attack a man first, nobody says nothing, but if you protect yourself everybody blames the man or either says that he shouldn't have protected himself, even though the Women attacked him first, and if a Man attacks a women , everyone blames the mans for starting an attack, whilst if it was a Women most people wouldn't say nothing, or wouldn't criticize her as much as the man? Do you agree?

P.S : I am against any sorts of attack against anyone unless it's for self defense, regardless if they are a man or a woman

Many cases of domestic violence in the UK are initiated by the woman. If after an argument the woman throws a punch, plate or anything else at you it seems to be o.k. I think the issue here is a man should be able to defend himself using reasonable force. If a woman slaps you it depends on how you react, beating her up is not really self defence. In a public place such as a nightclub is a drunk woman punches a man it's highly unlikely any charges will be pressed. But these are minor instances not the norm.

 

[ElRaja]

One of the thing I must ask, my friend tells me this, Do Women have more rights then men? For example If your a women and you attack a man first, nobody says nothing, but if you protect yourself everybody blames the man or either says that he shouldn't have protected himself, even though the Women attacked him first, and if a Man attacks a women , everyone blames the mans for starting an attack, whilst if it was a Women most people wouldn't say nothing, or wouldn't criticize her as much as the man? Do you agree?

P.S : I am against any sorts of attack against anyone unless it's for self defense, regardless if they are a man or a woman

women dont have more rights, it just that fewer men will report being assaulted by a woman because they fear they will come across as wusses.

having said that if a woman does hit a man out of anger or losing control she will rarely injure a man (unless she has a weapon), as opposed to vice versa. therefore its only natural for a man to be expected to not retaliate to a womens attack unless she is hell bent on causing harm.

even then a man should easily be able to physically suppress a woman without injuring her, therefore hitting, punching, etc is still not justified imo.

 

[MenInG]

Like I have said in the OP - keep the sensationalist stuff off these discussions.

As for those compaining about posts being deleted, dont ask these questions in normal threads - they all go in MRR and no where else.

 

[Garuda]

A lot of things are lacking when it comes to addressing this problem. Mostly my observation from India

1. Conviction of the accused. - The process is long and painful for the victim too. Many times, the victims family doesn't want to proceed or withdraw the case due to threat, paid money etc

2. humiliation in Society : This is something I fail to understand. We as a society we somehow treat badly towards the victim than the accused. Even if the accused is jailed, the victim actually is tortured everyday in her life.

Our so called marriage system discards her. She is taunted as if somewhere it was her fault to encourage rapist.

We have examples in this forum where some say, it's women's dressing this or that forces men to rape.

3. Law enforcement : Even if whatever law we have, the police doesn't force it. Most of the times they mediate between accused and victim's family to sort out the case. Either not to get shamed in society or for money. More than half of the cases doesn't get registered at all.

 

[DHONI183]

A lot of things are lacking when it comes to addressing this problem. Mostly my observation from India

1. Conviction of the accused. - The process is long and painful for the victim too. Many times, the victims family doesn't want to proceed or withdraw the case due to threat, paid money etc

2. humiliation in Society : This is something I fail to understand. We as a society we somehow treat badly towards the victim than the accused. Even if the accused is jailed, the victim actually is tortured everyday in her life.

Our so called marriage system discards her. She is taunted as if somewhere it was her fault to encourage rapist.

We have examples in this forum where some say, it's women's dressing this or that forces men to rape.

3. Law enforcement : Even if whatever law we have, the police doesn't force it. Most of the times they mediate between accused and victim's family to sort out the case. Either not to get shamed in society or for money. More than half of the cases doesn't get registered at all.

Good post.

2. What else would you expect from people who belong to a society where anything/everything that happens to women is blamed on them not 'covering themselves well'?

 

[Uzi]

Indian women beat 'sex-attack MP' in Assam

Indian police have detained a politician accused of rape after he was set upon and beaten by crowds in a village in Assam state.

National television broadcast footage of Bikram Singh Brahma, from the Congress Party, being stripped of his shirt and slapped by the women.

Police acted after the victim's husband reported the alleged rape.

Pressure has grown for tougher action on rape since a woman was attacked in Delhi on 16 December and later died.

Five men have been charged with the kidnap, gang-rape and murder of the 23-year-old, whose name has not been released.

The government has set up a committee under a retired supreme court judge to recommend changes to the law on rape.

Stripped and slapped
The incident in Assam, in north-eastern India, took place in a village in Chirang district, on the border with Bhutan.


According to Chirang police, quoted by the Indian Express newspaper, a man reported that his wife had been raped during the night by Mr Brahma.

The politician allegedly entered the woman's house and raped her at about 02:00 (20:30 GMT Wednesday), according to a police official.

The villagers ran to the house and captured the man after hearing the woman scream, the official told AP news agency.

Indian TV broadcast footage of Mr Brahma surrounded by men and women in a street by daylight.

Some men kick and beat him with what appears to be a stick, before others restrain them. Then women move in, tearing off his shirt and slapping him in the face and on his arms.

A man is later seen spraying graffiti on a car.

Police arrived in the village at noon but the people holding Mr Brahma initially refused to hand him over, according to the Times of India newspaper.

They demanded officers record him confessing to the rape before he was taken away.

Police told the paper they had taken him into custody but had not arrested him, pending the registration of the case.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-india-20902258




They should hang all rapists IMO.

 

[Gabbar Singh]

India gang rape victim's father: I want the world to know my daughter's name is Jyoti Singh Pandey

Devastated dad tells The Sunday People he hopes revealing her name will give courage to other women who have survived such attacks

She is known to the world only as India’s Daughter following her sickening gang rape and murder.

But today, with permission of her devastated father, we can reveal her name: Jyoti Singh Pandey.

Brave dad Badri, 53, told The Sunday People: “We want the world to know her real name.

“My daughter didn’t do anything wrong, she died while protecting herself.

“I am proud of her. Revealing her name will give courage to other women who have survived these attacks. They will find strength from my daughter.”

We interviewed Badri and his family in his ancestral village of Billia in the northern Indian state of Uttar Pradesh.

They have retreated there to grieve away from their Delhi home – a place that will constantly remind them of the barbaric sexual attack Jyoti, 23, was subjected to when she and a male friend were lured on to a bus.

His wife Asha, 46, was too shell-shocked to talk to us.

Badri said: “At first I wanted to see the men responsible face to face but I don’t want to any more. I just want to hear that the courts have punished them and they will be hanged.

“Death for all six of them. These men are beasts. They should be made an example of and that society will not allow such things to happen.”

Recalling the day he found out about his only daughter’s ordeal, Badri said he had just returned home after 10:30pm on December 16 from his shift at Delhi airport where he works as a loader.

His wife was worried after Jyoti, a medical school graduate, had not returned home from the cinema.

Badri said: “We started calling her mobile and her friend’s mobile but there was no answer.

“Then at 11.15pm we got a call from the hospital in Delhi telling me my daughter had been in an accident.”

Badri asked a friend to take him on a motorbike.

He said: “When I first saw her she was in the bed with her eyes closed.

“I put my hand on her forehead and called her name. She slowly opened her eyes and started crying and said she was in pain.

“I held my tears. I told her not to worry, have strength and everything will be all right.”

At the time Badri still didn’t know what had happened. A policeman finally explained. Jyoti and her friend Awindra Pandey, 28, had boarded a bus to get home but had been taken on a two-and-a-half hour ride to hell by the driver, his assistant and four passengers.

Both were battered with iron bars and Jyoti was repeatedly raped before they were stripped and dumped on a road leading to Delhi airport – yards from where Badri was working.

He said: “I immediately called my wife and sons and told them to come to the hospital. But I couldn’t tell them about the rape.”

For the first ten days Jyoti was in and out of consciousness and it was hopeful she would survive. Badri said: “Doctors did their best to save her. She spoke a few times but mostly through gestures. She had a feeding pipe in her mouth making it difficult for her to speak.

But she did write on some paper that she wanted to live, she wanted to survive and stay with us. But it was fate that had the last say in the end.”

Jyoti gave the police two statements, but Badri was too distraught to sit in as he couldn’t listen to what his daughter had been subjected to.

“My wife was with her through the statements but she cried so much after hearing it all,” Badri said.

“She then told me what happened. I don’t have the words to describe the incident. All I can say is they’re not human, not even animals. They’re not of this world.

“It was just gruesome and I hope no one ever goes through what she had to endure.

“She cried a lot, she was in a lot of pain. And as soon as she saw her mother and brothers she cried again.

“But after that she was a courageous girl, even trying to console us and give us hope that everything will be all right.”

Doctors were forced to remove Jyoti’s intestines and as her conditioned worsened, they flew her to Singapore for specialist care on Boxing Day.

Badri said: “I told her everything would be OK and we’ll soon be back home. She was excited when we talked about going home and she smiled.

“I put my hand on her forehead, she asked me if I’d had any dinner and then she gestured for me to go to sleep. I held her hand and kissed it. I told her to take rest and not to worry and she closed her eyes.”As Jyoti battled for life, thousands took to the streets to demand the hanging of the six accused and a new anti-rape law. But three days later on December 29 she had a fatal heart attack.

Badri said: “I so desperately wanted her to survive, even though she would have to live with a memory of that attack and get through her trauma.

“We’re so devastated that she’s gone. There’s a huge void in our lives. She was the centre of our universe. Our lives revolved around her.

“Her absence is so painful, a future without her is unimaginable.”

Badri said Jyoti’s friend Awindra was not her boyfriend – just a very brave friend who tried to save her.

He said: “There was no question of her marrying because we belong to different castes.

“She never expressed a desire to marry. She was concentrating on her studies and wanted a job first.”

Badri also revealed that Jyoti often mentioned how much Awindra tried to save her.

“She kept telling her mother he tried his best to help but they kept beating him with a rod.”

Badri now cherishes the memories of his daughter. He remembers her dream of being a doctor.

He said: “I told her I can’t afford to pay for her to do such subjects but she was determined. She wanted to be a doctor and earn lots of money and go overseas a lot.”

When Badri first moved to Delhi in 1983 he earned just 150 Rupees a month – the equivalent of £1.70 today.

But he sold some land to pay for his daughter’s studies and saved as much as possible from his 5,700 Rupees (£65) a month he now earns.

Badri said: “It’s hard living in Delhi on my wages, very hard. But Jyoti always said she would change all of that. She wanted to change our lives once she got a job.”

Jyoti had only just finished her four-year course in physiotherapy at college outside Delhi. She was doing an internship when she was attacked.

Her brothers, Gaurav Singh, 20, and Saurav Singh, 15, were close to their big sister and cannot image how they will cope.

Gaurav said: “Life is going to be so difficult without her. Without her guidance I don’t know what to do or how to go about life again.”

Badri and all the family have been touched by the way the nation has supported them.

He said: “The people of India have given us strength to cope up with our loss. I feel she’s not just my daughter but also India’s daughter.

“I used to read about rape incidents in the newspapers but never digested it much. We’re so thankful to the people who came out to protest against the barbarity.”

DNA tests have linked five men and a 17-year-old from the bus with rape and murder. The men will appear at the District Court in the Saket area of the Indian capital tomorrow. The 17-year-old will be tried separately as a juvenile.

Badri now hopes mothers and fathers will teach their sons to respect women.

He said: “The police cannot handle this on their own. But parents need to keep an eye on their children too.”

Badri’s face lit up when he spoke of Jyoti’s dreams and invited us to look through his family album. Each photo showed his beautiful daughter smiling. In most she is wears western clothes, which she favoured over the traditional sari. She also always wore her long, dark shiny hair down and flowing – never tied up.

In respect with Badri’s wishes he has asked us not to picture her.

Releasing a photo of her is for another day.

Indian law prohibits naming a rape victim unless she authorises it or, if she is dead, her family agrees to it.

At the moment it is enough for the devastated family to sanction the release to the world of their precious daughter’s name. And they hope a hospital will one day be named in her honour.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/india-gang-rape-victims-father-1521289

 

[Namak_Halaal]

Unfortunately there was another case and the Indian Police investigating the case were suspended today.

Four policemen have been suspended and a fifth transferred over the handling of a suspected new rape and murder case close to the Indian capital, Delhi.

The father of the alleged 21-year-old victim has told the BBC she was gang-raped. Her body was found on Saturday.

Two men have been arrested and a third suspect is reported to have fled.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-india-20927276

If the public cannot trust the police, who can they trust.

 

[Bhaijaan]

Some very sexist suggestions from all religious sections regarding this incident:

RSS/VHP: Women should just be housewives and stay at home.

Bapu Assa Ram: Victim should have called the attackers 'brother'

Jamaat-e-Islami Hind: Ban co-education, live in relationships to prevent such incidents.

 

[bin_pendi_ka_lota]

India gang rape victim's father: I want the world to know my daughter's name is Jyoti Singh Pandey

I have been following this story closely and think following should be done....
Her story should be taught in school as curriculum....
The rape as crime in India needs more rigorous punishment compared to other countries, for impact on thye victim and family is much more...

And finally, After this incident, I have talked to " few" Indian girls/women and they have "all" complained about eve teasing they have suffered from not just ordinary Indians but also Indian men in khaki or army men not in dress.. What does it tells..... Society and system is sick... Lets just accept it and find a cure.

 

[mithun_minhas]

Some very sexist suggestions from all religious sections regarding this incident:

RSS/VHP: Women should just be housewives and stay at home.

Bapu Assa Ram: Victim should have called the attackers 'brother'

Jamaat-e-Islami Hind: Ban co-education, live in relationships to prevent such incidents.

What can we expect from stone age baboons?

The worst part is that Baba Asa ram's statement. He said the girl was equally at fault

With this kind of attitude, India will never improve.

I can only imagine the plight of women in India a few hundred years ago with thousands of morons like Asa rams blaming women for all the rapes.

I feel who ever is saying that the women are at fault or co-ed schools should be banned or women should not wear skirts should all be slapped in public.

 

[mithun_minhas]

I have been following this story closely and think following should be done....
Her story should be taught in school as curriculum....
The rape as crime in India needs more rigorous punishment compared to other countries, for impact on thye victim and family is much more...

And finally, After this incident, I have talked to " few" Indian girls/women and they have "all" complained about eve teasing they have suffered from not just ordinary Indians but also Indian men in khaki or army men not in dress.. What does it tells..... Society and system is sick... Lets just accept it and find a cure.

Excellent Idea