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Darren Sammy - Is he a Batsman or a Bowler?

hes very good all rounder n captain....... he has made this team look decent wen they were worst then bangladesh at 2008/09
 
No way. The team will disintegrate again if Darren Sammy is sacked. As a cricketer and character he is solid at best, but that is what they need. Lara and Gayle, for instance, were too temperamental and flourishing to be good captains. Sammy remains the only captain to beat Misbah's Pakistan in a test match.
 
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What Sammy brings to the team isn't just what he brings to the table in terms of performance, yes, he's a utility cricketer, an effective batsman, a trundler who picks up wickets here and there, not an outstanding talent by any means, but he's gone a long way in uniting the Windies as a unit and taking him out of puzzle might have an adverse effect on their structure.
 
Edwards is an awful bowler. He has played alot of tests now and still averages 37 and it is not getting any lower.

Sammy deserves to play as a bowler along with Roach & Rampaul (or a second spinner on some pitches).

The fact is Sammy has improved the teams fight & results, despite not having all the talent in the team.

Chanders has been tried as captain before. It was a disaster. Leave Chanders be to score runs.
 
Windies lost before he was captain, they have lost with him as captain. In the 80`s and the early90`s he wouldn`t even be allowed as a net bowler. The Windies like any team should be choosing the team first and then the captain. Is Sammy really the 3rd best seamer in the Caribbean?
 
kabir000 said:
Windies lost before he was captain, they have lost with him as captain. In the 80`s and the early90`s he wouldn`t even be allowed as a net bowler. The Windies like any team should be choosing the team first and then the captain. Is Sammy really the 3rd best seamer in the Caribbean?
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The top wicket takers in the Caribbean are always spinner after spinner all the way down the charts these days.

They have 4 promising seam bowlers/allrounders on the scene though.

Kevin McClean- 23/24 yrs. Right arm fast. Decent height, strong. No idea why WI haven't given him more of a look in.

Jason Holder- 20 yrs. Very, very tall, like Joel Garner height. Accurate but not express. Seamer who can also bat a bit. Expect to see him in WI colours in 2-3 years.

Carlos Brathwaite 23 yrs (no relation to the opener)- Bowling allrounder. decent height. Not express but regular wicket taker for Barbados.

and Chris Jordan 23 yrs- currently playing county cricket for Surrey. Expect a tug of war between England & Wi for him if he does well this season. Bowling allrounder.
 
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Sammy is good with the Captaincy & with the ball(Nowadays even with the bat)....

A lot of batsman seem to underestimate his bowling,thus Sammy gets their wickets...
 
With Sammy in the team the Windies will never be able to take advantage of promising positions and take 20 wickets in test match to win matches. There is not a single team in the world who would have Sammy as their 3rd seamer.
 
When Gayle comes back in WI will be stronger. Although I think Sammy is bringing something positive to the team.

PS: Edwards is so over-rated
 
Edwards does bowl rubbish from time to time but he is also unlucky with dropped catches also costing him. But i would have him over Sammy anyday of the week.
 
You guys are forgetting there is no jerome taylor who was a top bowler in that champions trophy in India. Always rated him highly
 
The reason no-one mentions Taylor is that he hasn't played for 2 years. Get over him, he's not coming back.

Edwards average doesn't lie, he is exciting, but rubbish.
 
Spiderguy252 said:
Kidding much? West Indies seem to be total cr*p without him around.
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Hardly setting the world ablaze with him. And he takes up proper bowlers position in the team. If he was the 4th seamer then that would be a bad thing, with him bowling around 10 overs a day ala Collingwood,Bopara etc.
 
Eh, he is actually THE way for a good westindies team, a pretty good captain, a hard hitting batsman and a very under-rated bowler
 
If Strauss keeps captaining England, I don't see anything wrong with Sammy captaining Windies.:D

To unite the players of windies must be one of the toughest jobs in world cricket and Sammy is doing a great work
 
He's a good captain, probably their best bowler, and a useful lower order batsman. If West Indies bowling attack was a little stronger (and their bench strength was stronger) then maybe. But it isn't. And Sammy's probably good enough to make it in as purely a bowler in tests.

In ODIs (he's actually pretty decent in T20s), he's not good. But not sure it's worth dropping him as he brings a lot with captaining and leadership qualities. And he's a good player for the team in 2 formats out of three.

The main problem in tests isn't Sammy, it's the fact Edwards isn't that good. Replace him with Rampaul and you'll probably have West Indies best attack.
 
kabir000 said:
Hardly setting the world ablaze with him. And he takes up proper bowlers position in the team. If he was the 4th seamer then that would be a bad thing, with him bowling around 10 overs a day ala Collingwood,Bopara etc.
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A test win over an undefeated Pakistan; a 2-2 draw against Australia, I think they're doing just fine now.
 
Edwards is not rubbish, he's actually a pretty decent bowler, but desperately unlucky, he'll have everything in his favour, good pace, good conditions, ball moving around but just can't seem to have 'good days'
 
Canistani Hero said:
Edwards is not rubbish, he's actually a pretty decent bowler, but desperately unlucky, he'll have everything in his favour, good pace, good conditions, ball moving around but just can't seem to have 'good days'
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it's because he's not consistent. Doesn't bowl well for consistent periods of time. Thus reduces the chance of taking lots of wickets consistently.

Good bowlers usually can bowl good spells over a long period of time. Which Fidel doesn't.

Similar problem with Sami, except Sami was probably worse in this regard.
 
he is a very committed captain. a bewilderingly poor fielder at times. dropping sitters at slip of watson, warner isnt really good.
 
Sammy was very impressive in this series, this guy seriously has to be the most underrated cricketer in the world
 
jusarrived said:
Very underrated bat . With a bit more application he could easily avg 30-35 in tests
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That's exaggerating it a bit. Even some of the best batsman in the Caribbean don't have FC averages of 35. But if Sammy tightens up his defence, he can definitely average somewhere between 25 to 30 and possibly move up to number 6. He's as good as anyone when it come to smashing the ball.
 
Equinox said:
That's exaggerating it a bit. Even some of the best batsman in the Caribbean don't have FC averages of 35. But if Sammy tightens up his defence, he can definitely average somewhere between 25 to 30 and possibly move up to number 6. He's as good as anyone when it come to smashing the ball.
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Pretty much agree, but definitely not #6 in Tests. In mickey-mouse (T20) yes, ODI maybe. In Tests he seems well placed at #8 TBH.
 
He also had a good comeback against Ponting's sledging today. Worth it!
 
muraliDHARAN SWAMI is indeed very impressive. if he averages under 30 with the ball and above 25 with the bat he will have done great service to windies cricket.
 
I've always been pro-Sammy, but sometimes I wonder why he doesn't back himself and bat higher up in the order. The way he came up the order in the second test match was very very impressive, and his innings of 60+ in the third was good to watch as well. He's a very talented batsman who is wasting himself by not stepping up.

As for his captaincy, I often feel like he is like Misbah for Pakistan. He brings this sense of stability and calm, and while tactically, he has been rather poor, he has managed to bring out the best in a group of inexperienced and/or mediocre players.

Hoping for a West Indian resurgence now - I think we'll see once pretty soon :)
 
Legend Killer said:
Sammy was very impressive in this series, this guy seriously has to be the most underrated cricketer in the world
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Put it in proper perspective- he averaged 30 with the bat (poor for a bastman, mediocre for an allrounder) with just 1 score above 50.

He averaged 40 with the ball and took only 5 wickets over 3 tests, less than 1 per innings. That is part timer stuff, NO WAY is that acceptable for a bowling allrounder or frontline bowler.

He dropped at least two important, easy catches.

Fact is that objectively, by the numbers he had a poor series and yet people say this was the best of him?

He does not offer enough in either department.
 
He is one good bowler, I first noticed him during Pakistan's tour to WI last year and he can belt the balla good distance too. If only they hadn't lost Chanderpaul in the last over n the second last day and he could've continued til say lunch and reduced the deficit followed by the onslaught WI definitely were in for a win.

They have come close so many times this year, just one good series or tournament like **** 92 world cup to establish that they can accomplish anything (Im thinking this T20 WC, they have more than a decent team)and they could become a team to reckon with.
 
The guy is a average bowler, a "slogger" lower down in the order and shockingly poor fielder, but if that's what some like then good for them.
 
His bowling is akin to a Bopara or Collingwood-apart time bowler and he is just a number 8. A guy is poor as an allrounder and should not be in the test team.
 
Part-time bowlers do not bowl 10+ or 20+ overs per innings and certainly do not average 31 with the ball.

The dolly drops are disturbing, particularly since Sammy has shown he can take some blinding catches. That I do find a bit bewildering.
 
wrongun said:
Put it in proper perspective- he averaged 30 with the bat (poor for a bastman, mediocre for an allrounder) with just 1 score above 50.

He averaged 40 with the ball and took only 5 wickets over 3 tests, less than 1 per innings. That is part timer stuff, NO WAY is that acceptable for a bowling allrounder or frontline bowler.

He dropped at least two important, easy catches.

Fact is that objectively, by the numbers he had a poor series and yet people say this was the best of him?

He does not offer enough in either department.
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Your statistics are VERY biased. You have to put the average into context, how much did the australian top 6 average this series? Ponting averaged 24, clarke 31, warner 28, cowan 25, hussey 36.

Yet a batsmen coming in at 8 averaging 31 against a better attack in this series was poor. Had he played on different pitches, then that is poor but not poor considering the pitches, conditions and the bowlers he faced. Also taking into account he was run out once too.

He also took some blinders, if you're going to provide facts, provide both sides, not just the side you want people to see. Some of the catches he took, others would have grassed.
 
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Pakprideuk said:
Your statistics are VERY biased. You have to put the average into context, how much did the australian top 6 average this series? Ponting averaged 24, clarke 31, warner 28, cowan 25, hussey 36.

Yet a batsmen coming in at 8 averaging 31 against a better attack in this series was poor. Had he played on different pitches, then that is poor but not poor considering the pitches, conditions and the bowlers he faced. Also taking into account he was run out once too.

He also took some blinders, if you're going to provide facts, provide both sides, not just the side you want people to see. Some of the catches he took, others would have grassed.
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Statistics are by very nature, unbiased.

In fact the statistic you bring up makes him look worse. In a series in which batsmen struggled and had low batting averages, he STILL only managed 5 wickets and averaged 40 with the ball, even when many other quicks (all aussies, Roach etc) had good averages in the same conditions.
 
DS is not a 3rd seamer and hence when the Windies have a team on the ropes as they did in the last match they cant advantage because one of the main bowlers is a waste of time. To win matches they have to 20 wickets but with him in the team that is highly unlikely. He should bat at 6 and take his chances as a PT bowler and frontline batsman but he knows and we know that he is not good enough to play as 6.
 
Yeah batting at 6/4th seamer is the only way he could hold his spot in the team long term.

I know he's done a decent job as leader but the fact is the west indies are still losing tests and lots of them, if he is going to be holding his spot on his captaincy the west indies need wins or else what the point?
 
kabir000 said:
DS is not a 3rd seamer
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Has a better average than Pakistan's "first seamer". Owned?

He should bat at 6 and take his chances as a PT bowler and frontline batsman but he knows and we know that he is not good enough to play as 6.
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Agreed (emphasis mine).

ETA: I think he can seriously consider batting at six in LOIs, but not higher than eight in Tests (except maybe in rare pinch-hitting circumstances such as came up in the second innings in Trinidad). If he improves his defense he might have a shot as a Test #7, but really he belongs at eight or nine, depending on the nature of the lineup.
 
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Something for haters who think Sammy isn't a decent Test bowler:

[utube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J0DVFwigOyA[/utube]
 
He takes 2 wickets a game at just over 30, it's not awful but it's not good enough to be one of your three frontline quicks in a 4 man bowling attack.

Shane watson takes 2 wickets a game at 29 but he never plays as a bowler in a 4 man attack and never will.
 
Indeed, we really need a five-man attack but can't play five frontline bowlers. The likes of a Samuels or a Deonarine need to bowl their fair share, especially if the track is turning. As a part-time bowler even Chanderpaul isn't that bad but he rarely bowls these days.
 
Sammy is a useless Captain!

Besides being a poor test player he is also a useless captain. A great chance to get men around the bat and he has men on the boundary with a couple of overs to go. I cant remember more inept captaincy than this. Surely the Windies must have guys that can do better than this.
 
dwayne bravo shud be da captain. i also think sarwan was a good plyer and coud hav been a good captain but WI board r more inconsistent than pcb. wasting such a good talented bat like sarwan.
 
Which game are u watching op?

Yes didnt agree with his field settings but the man has made the brittle WI a lot tougher since he took over and theyve got a chance in this game
 
Zaz said:
Which game are u watching op?

Yes didnt agree with his field settings but the man has made the brittle WI a lot tougher since he took over and theyve got a chance in this game
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Agreed .
 
He is one of the best captains.

They are defending 190; They need some cover on the boundaries.
Which chances went missing through slips or catching positions.
 
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Stop Criticizing Sammy! I think he has taken young side to another level. I know lot of people weren't happy when he was made captain initially, but I think he has improved a lot! And as a player he is probably their best All Rounder at the moment, in all formats of the game.
 
What a stupid thread. The way West Indies are playing, even India didn't play like that with its batting line-up. He's completely changed the atmosphere around the team and they seem to be very proud of playing for the WI and not for themselves.

In this situation, i think he got it right. Fidel swings the ball in to the left handerso it would only make sense to have two slips for him whereas roach who swings it away from the left hander had two slips and two gullys catching.

Also i dont know why people are calling for the likes of Sarwan and Bravo and keep complaining about the IPL. From what i can remember Sarwan was in awful form against India on flat pitches and India didn't exactly have the best bowlers either. I think no one apart from Gayle and Rampaul deserve a place in this startingline up.
 
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Useless rant really, he has been a great leader for WI in the past one year.
 
useless thread

sammy has made this team Fighters.. even nasir said WI Played better then wht india played last year at england.. and they still havent lost the game
 
Agreed with the OP about Sammy being useless but can't really blame him for the field settings as the man is juggling attack with defence.
 
He isn't useless. More often than not, he bowls better than the rest and also manages useful runs with the bat, not to mention his effect on the team
 
Sammy is very underrated.he knows his bowlers can be erratic hence saving the boundaries.I'd do the same
 
I expected the game to be over in 3-4 days like many of India matches last summer but this is impressive stuff from them. A couple of more bursts from Roach and this WI may have a chance.
 
Which other captain from any international team in the hsitory of the game would put fielders on the boundary in the last few overs of the day, especially when the light is poor and the opposition is desperately defending. Yes, only a captain who doesn`t have the faintest idea about what he is doing.
 
True that, Sammy is useless players often acting like a pressure relief valve and holding out spot from better players in the dug out.

Though can't fault his captaincy. Defending 190 against this English batting line-up is going to be heck of a challenge.
 
Green Leopard said:
True that, Sammy is useless players often acting like a pressure relief valve and holding out spot from better players in the dug out.
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Other than Sammy, AFAIK the only better Test bowler we have ATM is Kemar Roach. It truly would be a travesty if there were sub-30 average bowlers sitting on the bench, but, as far as I'm aware... (Yes, Holding is totally right about the WICB's maltreatment of Jerome Taylor being unjustified, and Taylor did destroy England at Sabina Park that famous day in 2009, but nonetheless JT averages 36 with the ball, so how can he deserve a slot over Sammy? Of course he should be around the WI squad if he wants to be, that goes without saying.)

Though can't fault his captaincy. Defending 190 against this English batting line-up is going to be heck of a challenge.
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Agree, but this England team hasn't had to do very much chasing in recent times (due to often smashing opponents by an innings margin) and when they have, they have come unstuck. They're still favourites to chase the remaining 181 in this Lord's Test, though.
 
Sammy has been pretty good lately, didn't watch the match so don't know about what field placements he set, etc. But he's been doing a good lately.
 
Sammy is a trundler- he will average 40+ with the ball this series same as he did against Oz recently and a poor batsman (test average under 20).

But he is the best leader they have right now. Sad.
 
imo, Sammy has done a decent job,

Just needs more application with the bat as he shouldn't be averaging in the 20's. He looks a better batsmen than that.
 
Darren Sammy.

u r ok.

That's all he is though, okay. People shouldn't expect better. He will continue to do okay.

Like another poster said, he cares about the West Indies as a whole and their cricket team more than anything. That is what they need. Most other candidates are more interested in themselves or their own regions.

The players like him too. Windies now look a few players and a bit more confidence away from finally winning some test matches. They are competitive to say the least.
 
Frankly Sammy does not deserve a place in the team. Also he is sooooooo overrated as a captain. Defending 191 on the 5th day what does he do - Out of 40 odd overs bowled, 21 overs are from Sammy and Samuels!! Their frontline bowlers (Edwards, Gabriel) bowl 5 overs in the day. Dono if both were injured but even a partly fit frontline bowler is lot more effective than the Sammy's and the Samuels. IMO he is even worse than Dhoni as a captain when it comes to test matches.
If the only thing he is good at is keeping the team together, he must apply for the coach post!!
 
WalkingWiggett said:
Rampaul will play if he's fit, probably in lieu of F. Edwards.

Sammy is okay.
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I dunno about Rampaul. I feel like after that 40% team fine and 80% captain fine, they'll include Shane Shillingford for the next test at the expense of Edwards if they're being logical. But then you'd have to replace Gabriel with Rampaul which frankly sucks for Gabriel because he wasn't half-bad. If Sammy was good enough of a batsman that they could omit a batsman.... But they need every batsman they can get.
 
Gabriel only bowled 5 overs because of back spasms so he may give them an easy way out to get both Rampaul (for Gabriel) & Shillingford (for Edwards) back in. They would be mad to take Edwards into another match with his poor form & suspect back.

They will have a good excuse to drop Sammy after he averages 20 with the bat and 50 with the ball at the conclusion of this series.
 
Sammy chose improving the poor overrate than try to win the game with his best bowlers.

Why he kept bowling himself when Roach was on fire was madness.
 
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Roach was done by that stage.

Roach consistently bowls more overs than the so called "stock bowler" Sammy. This is why Roach has dropped pace. They keep picking an unfit Fidel alongside him too so he just has more work to do. Keep it up & they will ruin Roach.
 
wrongun said:
Roach was done by that stage.

Roach consistently bowls more overs than the so called "stock bowler" Sammy. This is why Roach has dropped pace. They keep picking an unfit Fidel alongside him too so he just has more work to do. Keep it up & they will ruin Roach.
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So you are saying that not only he is bad on the field as a captain, he is even worse off field when it comes to selection of the playing XI :)) Not able to understand whether you are his critic or a supporter.
In my view he is a poor batsman, poor bowler & a poor captain.
 
Whilst Sammy is a trier and a decent player. The fact hes in the side doesnt help the balance of team what so ever. Hes simply not good enough to be the 3rd seamer in the side.

W.I do miss dwayne bravo not being in side as he could bat top 6 and offer a good bowling option.
 
well he has decent numbers as both bowler n a lower order batsman.n he certainly isnt a poor captain.poor captain dont make the team like WI fight against top sides like Aus n now no.1 team in thier own backyard
 
He's basically in the team for his captaincy as he's not good enough to be part of a 4 man bowling attack, at some point though he needs to turn the fight and promise into actual wins.

It has to remembered the west indies have an awful record under sammy, 2 test wins from 17 matches if at some point the fight they have shown doesn't lead to more tangible on field results then sammy has to be in real danger.

In some ways it's sad to see how far the windies have fallen that so many praise them simply for losing in a less spectacular fashion than the past, true progress will be when they DON'T get praised when they lose test matches.
 
I guess the elephant in the room for the windies is how much of the recent fight is down to sammy and his inspirational captaincy and how much of the fight is coming from shiv who seems to be in career best form.

Take this current windies team but take out shiv's runs and they would be back to rolling over inside 3 days.

You can't build your future around a near 38 year old batsman.
 
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