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Does Pakistan's performance today show why we deserve more than 2 Tests in England?

Adil_94

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Most of the time when Pakistan come to England we always bring entertainment and compete well for the most part. What is the point of a 5 Test series with India bar revenue reasons. For us to be relegated to the 2 Test Bangladesh West Indies spot in the early English summer is disrespectful.
 
Aye, 2 Tests is a joke. Should have been a minimum of 3. I get why India should be the longer series because India are the top ranked team, but 2 Pakistan Tests and 5 India Tests feels totally unbalanced.
 
It's a bloody shame. I would have loved a series of 4 Test matches.
 
India is also the Number one Side so you can't really say that revenue is the sole reason behind them getting a 5 Test series but Pakistan definitely deserved more, atleast 3 Tests minimum.
 
No,today was a fluke.Just like whenever we do well.

Hasan Ali is going to create a lot more flukes in the future :))

After Amir in 2010, this is one guy I have extremely high expectations from. I really mean it. It would mean so much for the game in general.
 
Well the counties are broke and need the revenues.

Relax we've just had 4 Tests two years ago, we'll have 5 ODIs in a primetime slot right before the 2019 World Cup, and then we're back in 2020 for the main event of the summer with 3 Tests.
 
So our man takes 4 wickets giving away just 51 runs. England 184/AO

Spectacular from Hasan Ali. Mark my bloody words, this guy will rule the bowling department for years to come.
 
I think this is because Pak just played 4 tests in 2016 and are due to visit Eng for another full test series in 2020. If I were a Pak fan I would be pleased that England invited my team to play 10 test matches over there in 4 years !!!!
 
Most of the time when Pakistan come to England we always bring entertainment and compete well for the most part. What is the point of a 5 Test series with India bar revenue reasons. For us to be relegated to the 2 Test Bangladesh West Indies spot in the early English summer is disrespectful.

You're looking into it too much.

ECB and Sky have a contractual agreement for 7 Tests each summer.

They are playing 5 vs India.

Pakistan just played a 4 match Series in England in 2016.

India is touring for the first time since 2014.
 
Yeah thats my point exactly its too.skewed in the ratio. 3 tests for Pakistan and 4 for India would have been fine
 
Two non-minnows should never play series with 2 tests.
 
Most of the time when Pakistan come to England we always bring entertainment and compete well for the most part. What is the point of a 5 Test series with India bar revenue reasons. For us to be relegated to the 2 Test Bangladesh West Indies spot in the early English summer is disrespectful.

Totally agree big missed oppourtunity, at least Pak put up a fight. But it seems to me British Indians loved the Raj giving the Indians a prolonged beating over 5 Tests and pay very well to see that just for the nostalgia.
 
I think it's more to do with PCB's priorities than ECB. Our board loves meaningless T20Is, had PCB asked for that extra Test, I'm sure England could have accommodated it.

I don't see the point of 4-match series either. Either 3 or 5.

A 3 match series is fair for this tour.
 
India is also the Number one Side so you can't really say that revenue is the sole reason behind them getting a 5 Test series but Pakistan definitely deserved more, atleast 3 Tests minimum.

Revenue is definitely a major reason. We were better ranked than India last time around but still got 4 tests against their 5.

2 tests series is just plain rubbish though. Should be 3 minimum.
 
Two Tests is fair - that is what a 7th ranked team deserves.
 
You're looking into it too much.

ECB and Sky have a contractual agreement for 7 Tests each summer.

They are playing 5 vs India.

Pakistan just played a 4 match Series in England in 2016.

India is touring for the first time since 2014.

Actually, this makes a lot more sense than the revenue argument.
 
It was a spirited performance, but I do not have a good feeling about this.

I think England will claw their way back and win the game. Should that happen, this will go down as one of our most painful defeats, because England are pretty much on the ropes at the moment.
 
Pakistan vs England is actually my most favorite series to watch when it comes to watching test cricket. A lot of history behind the two whenever they play.
 
Bangladesh doesn't get any Tests in England. Last time PAK got 4, so it averages out to 3.

Thats quite fair in my opinion, given the historic rankings.
 
Bangladesh doesn't get any Tests in England. Last time PAK got 4, so it averages out to 3.

Thats quite fair in my opinion, given the historic rankings.

Where does Bangladesh comes into the argument/comparison? *scratches head*

How exactly is it fair when teams getting 5 matches get totally blanked and the team getting 4 matches competes and draws the series 2-2?

Also, Pakistan played in England after a 6 year gap which was massive.
 
Two Tests is fair - that is what a 7th ranked team deserves.

It has nothing to do with that. England play 7 home tests each other and since Pakistan played 4 couple of years ago, it is only fair for India (as they haven't toured England since 2014) to have a longer series.
 
Pakistan toured England two years ago. They played 4 tests back then.

So, this time two tests are quite understandable IMO. It is not like they are touring after a 4-5 year gap.
 
It has nothing to do with that. England play 7 home tests each other and since Pakistan played 4 couple of years ago, it is only fair for India (as they haven't toured England since 2014) to have a longer series.

Not sure about that. Pakistan didn’t tour England for 6 years (2010-2016) and got 4 Tests instead of 5.

Whatever the real reason might be, a 5:2 split is fair in my view.
 
Not sure about that. Pakistan didn’t tour England for 6 years (2010-2016) and got 4 Tests instead of 5.

Whatever the real reason might be, a 5:2 split is fair in my view.

Watch the 2 series match ending up with a fighting score and the 5 match series ending in either a white wash or 4-1.
 
Watch the 2 series match ending up with a fighting score and the 5 match series ending in either a white wash or 4-1.

Matches aren’t allocated based on hindsight, and if boards decided to host teams based on results, Pakistan will never get to tour Australia again.
 
Not sure about that. Pakistan didn’t tour England for 6 years (2010-2016) and got 4 Tests instead of 5.

Whatever the real reason might be, a 5:2 split is fair in my view.

Don't blame them after the spot fixing saga. Although I still think England will win this series, you'll have to retract the statement about the split if Pakistan get at least a draw and India lose.
 
3 Tests would have been fair. 2 Test series are crap [MENTION=131701]Mamoon[/MENTION]
 
3 Tests would have been fair. 2 Test series are crap [MENTION=131701]Mamoon[/MENTION]

They are, but that’s the only way they could have accommodated India and Pakistan in one summer.

India has earned the right to play 5 Tests.
 
Come on in what way do India deserve a 5 Test series in England. Apart from the revenue.
 
Don't blame them after the spot fixing saga. Although I still think England will win this series, you'll have to retract the statement about the split if Pakistan get at least a draw and India lose.

If I retract my statement, I would also have to insist that Australia should never host Pakistan again, since that is what we deserve if teams are allocated matches based on performances.
 
Matches aren’t allocated based on hindsight, and if boards decided to host teams based on results, Pakistan will never get to tour Australia again.

Last time Pakistan visited Australia after a massive gap, we managed to fight out in all of the tests. Then there are teams who get to visit every year and get blanked every time.

I remember how in 2015, a certain team stayed in Australia for almost a year and kept getting blanked in tests, ODIs, traingular series and eventually got owned by Australia in WC semi final the same year.

Going by that the team in question should have been banned to ever tour Australia again.
 
Don't blame them after the spot fixing saga. Although I still think England will win this series, you'll have to retract the statement about the split if Pakistan get at least a draw and India lose.

If I retract my statement, I would also have to insist that Australia should never host Pakistan again, since that is what we deserve if teams are allocated matches based on performances.

I certainly can’t vouch for that, hence I won’t retract my statement.
 
If I retract my statement, I would also have to insist that Australia should never host Pakistan again, since that is what we deserve if teams are allocated matches based on performances.

Your line of argument is not aligned with the fact that we dont get to regularly visit Australia unlike a certain team.
 
We had a spectacular day today... I sure this thread wouldn't have been created had we not done so well :afridi
 
Last time Pakistan visited Australia after a massive gap, we managed to fight out in all of the tests. Then there are teams who get to visit every year and get blanked every time.

I remember how in 2015, a certain team stayed in Australia for almost a year and kept getting blanked in tests, ODIs, traingular series and eventually got owned by Australia in WC semi final the same year.

Going by that the team in question should have been banned to ever tour Australia again.

Pakistan has lost every single Test in Australia since God knows when. Comfortably the worst touring country in Australia.

India have been quite competitive in Australia in their last 4-5 Test series there.

There are no parallels between Pakistan and India when it comes to results in Australia. India have done decently, while Pakistan has been embarrassing.

If India doesn’t deserve to play 5 Tests in England because of their poor record their, Pakistan does not deserve to play in Australia because it can’t even draw a single match to save its life. Utterly ridiculous and embarrassing record.
 
Idk why you guys give attention seekers so much attention... This guy said Pakistan would be brutally exposed in the series. If anything it is Pakistan that did the exposing today.
 
Your line of argument is not aligned with the fact that we dont get to regularly visit Australia unlike a certain team.

We can tour Australia every year and we will still lose every game. They know how to beat us.
 
Pakistan has lost every single Test in Australia since God knows when. Comfortably the worst touring country in Australia.

India have been quite competitive in Australia in their last 4-5 Test series there.

There are no parallels between Pakistan and India when it comes to results in Australia. India have done decently, while Pakistan has been embarrassing.

If India doesn’t deserve to play 5 Tests in England because of their poor record their, Pakistan does not deserve to play in Australia because it can’t even draw a single match to save its life. Utterly ridiculous and embarrassing record.

India regularly visits England and gets blown apart every time.

We get to visit Australia after long gaps, how is the comparison fair?
 
We can tour Australia every year and we will still lose every game. They know how to beat us.

I disagree. If we get to play them more, i trust Pakistan more to beat them as compared to India who have been touring year in year out with no success.
 
England were a bit rusty today won't be as easy getting them out 2nd time around and chasing will be difficult still a long to go to win this match.
 
India regularly visits England and gets blown apart every time.

We get to visit Australia after long gaps, how is the comparison fair?

I think the gap argument is irrelevant because we have a 100% losing record in Australia, which is a hideous fact.

This argument might have some legs even if we draw a single Test match, but even that appears to be a tall order.
 
I disagree. If we get to play them more, i trust Pakistan more to beat them as compared to India who have been touring year in year out with no success.

If India gets to tour them once in 10 years, I can guarantee that they will still manage to draw a game or two.

Our embarrassing record in Australia cannot be excused. No team has been as bad in any country as Pakistan in Australia.
 
I think the gap argument is irrelevant because we have a 100% losing record in Australia, which is a hideous fact.

This argument might have some legs even if we draw a single Test match, but even that appears to be a tall order.

If we are getting 4 chances in 7 years as compared to 20 chances in 7 years, i think it doesnt take much to know which team would have a higher chances of drawing or winning a match.
 
I disagree. If we get to play them more, i trust Pakistan more to beat them as compared to India who have been touring year in year out with no success.

If India gets to tour them once in 10 years, I can guarantee that they will still manage to draw a game or two.

Our embarrassing record in Australia cannot be excused. No team has been as bad in any country as Pakistan in Australia, and if teams decide to host teams based on their past performances, Pakistan’s tour of Australia will be the first tour to be called off.
 
If India gets to tour them once in 10 years, I can guarantee that they will still manage to draw a game or two.

Our embarrassing record in Australia cannot be excused. No team has been as bad in any country as Pakistan in Australia.

They have toured them almost every year since the 2010s and have gotten white washed. What kind of kool aid are you on?
 
Its almost like you hate supporting Pakistan..

Maybe, but I have no choice, which is why I don’t like to think that way. I love the game and my country, and I have made peace with the fact that I will continue to suffer.
 
Maybe, but I have no choice, which is why I don’t like to think that way. I love the game and my country, and I have made peace with the fact that I will continue to suffer.

Well nobody is forcing you to spew filth.... You can always decide to get 'busy' whenever we are doing well like you did in the 2016 series or the CT or today.
 
They have toured them almost every year since the 2010s and have gotten white washed. What kind of kool aid are you on?

I am only speaking facts.

They weren’t whitewashed in 2014-15.

2010-2011 was their only whitewash in many tours, but that is standard procedure for Pakistan when it comes to touring Australia.
 
Maybe, but I have no choice, which is why I don’t like to think that way. I love the game and my country, and I have made peace with the fact that I will continue to suffer.

Ever thought about the fact that the suffering is perhaps self-made?
 
Also had we not played that 1 test against Ireland we probably would have played a three test series with England. Keep in mind our boys have already been there for a month and today was just the first day of the test match. They are humans not robots.
 
I am only speaking facts.

They weren’t whitewashed in 2014-15.

2010-2011 was their only whitewash in many tours, but that is standard procedure for Pakistan when it comes to touring Australia.

You said they will draw a match or two even if they tour after 10 years but as facts point out that isnt the case.

Which brings me to ask you again, what kind of kool aid are you on? Is it the saffron colored?
 
Ever thought about the fact that the suffering is perhaps self-made?

We have been a mediocre team for nearly two decades now. Pakistan cricket has been on a downward spiral since the late 90’s, minus the occasional triumph.
 
brother [MENTION=136193]Adil_94[/MENTION]

its not exactly about revenue. India is addicted to losing 5-0 whitewashes. Whenever india travels to Australia and England, you will notice they always play 5 match series while at home they barely play 5 match series with these two.

Hence why I believe they are addicted to getting 5-0 whitewashes. They are in love with 5-0 spanking.

This is Fifty Shades of Blue tbh.
 
We have been a mediocre team for nearly two decades now. Pakistan cricket has been on the downward spiral since the late 90’s, minus the occasional triumph.

Downward spiral, yet we have achieved more in the last 20 years in our cricketing history than we have done ever before.

Two ICC tournaments, number one test ranking, first asian team to win series in SA, test series win in WI after a long accursed wait, defeating a team by the biggest margin in ICC history, white washing teams at our home and winning matches away.

The misery is self-made, my friend.
 
brother [MENTION=136193]Adil_94[/MENTION]

its not exactly about revenue. India is addicted to losing 5-0 whitewashes. Whenever india travels to Australia and England, you will notice they always play 5 match series while at home they barely play 5 match series with these two.

Hence why I believe they are addicted to getting 5-0 whitewashes. They are in love with 5-0 spanking.

This is Fifty Shades of Blue tbh.

:))) POTW for me
 
You said they will draw a match or two even if they tour after 10 years but as facts point out that isnt the case.

Which brings me to ask you again, what kind of kool aid are you on? Is it the saffron colored?

You are making excuses for Pakistan’s failures in Australia by stating that we get thrashed there only because of the long gaps between tours.

The only facts I know of is that Pakistan has been rubbish in Australia, and I would trust India to do better than us in Australia even if they have longer gaps, simply because they are better than us when it comes to playing in Australia.

I suppose it has a lot to do with the fact they haven’t been mentally scarred by Australia like we have. While we were bullied into submission by their invincible team, they were one of the very few teams that were able to compete with Australia to a good extent.

Hypotheticals and excuses do not interest me. If I agree that England should give India less matches because of their poor record there, I will also have to advocate that Australia should not give Pakistan any matches at all, because we have been utterly embarrassing there.
 
Downward spiral, yet we have achieved more in the last 20 years in our cricketing history than we have done ever before.

Two ICC tournaments, number one test ranking, first asian team to win series in SA, test series win in WI after a long accursed wait, defeating a team by the biggest margin in ICC history, white washing teams at our home and winning matches away.

The misery is self-made, my friend.

Yet, Pakistan no longer have the respect and recognition in world cricket that they had before. Why is that?

Let me list a few reasons why:

We don’t produce world class, box office players anymore.

We haven’t won a World Cup since 1992.

We haven’t been ranked number one in ODIs.

We have lost nearly 85% of our ODI series against the top teams since 2006.

We get thrashed in Australia every time we tour.

We were ranked number one in Tests for a very brief period, and only because the India vs West Indies Test was washed out.

Winning a Test series in West Indies in 2017 means absolutely nothing.

Winning the World T20 doesn’t do anything for the status of the team. West Indies have won two and they are still considered as a team in steep decline.

We have made a lot of noise for the wrong reasons (spot-fixing, chucking, terrorism etc.)

Our so-called dominance in UAE in Tests was flimsy - we lost matches to South Africa, Sri Lanka, New Zealand and even West Indies, and England were literally minutes away from winning a Test as well.

Moreover, our ODI record in the UAE is absolutely pathetic.

We even managed to lose a Test in Zimbabwe.

All of the above reasons have contributed to the fact that Pakistan cricket does not have the same clout and recognition that it used to.

Our reputation is still largely based on our historical exploits, and if we compile Pakistan’s all time XI across formats, hardly 1-2 players debuting in the last 15-20 years would make the teams.

So much for “achieving more in the last 20 years than ever before”

The Champions Trophy was great, and it has helped Pakistan restore some pride, but we have a long, long way to go because the damage of the last two decades cannot be reversed overnight.

Our 90’s team wasn’t particularly successful either. Post 1994, it greatly underperformed and lost Tests to teams like Sri Lanka and Zimbabwe at home, but it was a case of world class players not fulfilling their potential due to lack of work ethic and internal politics.

However, our lack of success in the last two decades has been largely down to producing very few high quality players, and that is why hardly 1-2 of our players of the last two decades make it to our all-time XI.
 
People can say what they want, but I have listed out the reasons why we have been in decline for two decades barring the odd success.

The reasons you provided are not commensurate with the downtrodden picture your paint of our team. And apologies for addressing you as another poster Junaids, guess I wasn't paying attention >:
 
If I retract my statement, I would also have to insist that Australia should never host Pakistan again, since that is what we deserve if teams are allocated matches based on performances.

I certainly can’t vouch for that, hence I won’t retract my statement.

With all due respect you're justifying the 5:2 split solely on Pakistan's 7th ranking and therefore their performances, however if we're going to follow this route (under meritocracy measures) I would focus on how both of the SC sides do head to head against England. Also we're talking about England here, the Australia argument is a different discussion altogether.

Whether you choose to retract or not your reasoning for the split it would be nullified in the 2 following scenarios concerning England's home series this year:

1. Pakistan avoid defeat and India lose
2. Pakistan win and India fail to beat England

Bear in mind Pakistan will most likely be playing in tougher conditions as well, when you consider we're expecting a warm summer ahead here in the UK.

We can at least agree that if any of the 2 scenarios becomes reality then the 5:2 split in which you favour (under your measures of merit) is completely flawed when you also consider Pakistan won 2 tests in 2016 without defeat.
 
HAhah [MENTION=131701]Mamoon[/MENTION] aaj phir bahut nakhos nazar aay..2 tests are fine.
 
Yet, Pakistan no longer have the respect and recognition in world cricket that they had before. Why is that?

Let me list a few reasons why:

We don’t produce world class, box office players anymore.

We haven’t won a World Cup since 1992.

We haven’t been ranked number one in ODIs.

We have lost nearly 85% of our ODI series against the top teams since 2006.

We get thrashed in Australia every time we tour.

We were ranked number one in Tests for a very brief period, and only because the India vs West Indies Test was washed out.

Winning a Test series in West Indies in 2017 means absolutely nothing.

Winning the World T20 doesn’t do anything for the status of the team. West Indies have won two and they are still considered as a team in steep decline.

We have made a lot of noise for the wrong reasons (spot-fixing, chucking, terrorism etc.)

Our so-called dominance in UAE in Tests was flimsy - we lost matches to South Africa, Sri Lanka, New Zealand and even West Indies, and England were literally minutes away from winning a Test as well.

Moreover, our ODI record in the UAE is absolutely pathetic.

We even managed to lose a Test in Zimbabwe.

All of the above reasons have contributed to the fact that Pakistan cricket does not have the same clout and recognition that it used to.

Our reputation is still largely based on our historical exploits, and if we compile Pakistan’s all time XI across formats, hardly 1-2 players debuting in the last 15-20 years would make the teams.

So much for “achieving more in the last 20 years than ever before”

The Champions Trophy was great, and it has helped Pakistan restore some pride, but we have a long, long way to go because the damage of the last two decades cannot be reversed overnight.

Our 90’s team wasn’t particularly successful either. Post 1994, it greatly underperformed and lost Tests to teams like Sri Lanka and Zimbabwe at home, but it was a case of world class players not fulfilling their potential due to lack of work ethic and internal politics.

However, our lack of success in the last two decades has been largely down to producing very few high quality players, and that is why hardly 1-2 of our players of the last two decades make it to our all-time XI.

Who says we don't have the same respect? Can you prove this with anything objective?

- Saeed Ajmal, Shahid Afridi, Younis Khan, Mohammad Amir, Mohammad Hafeez, Yasir Shah and now Babar Azam, Hasan Ali and Shadab Khan are/were all world class, box office players.

- We haven't won a World Cup since '92 but England, New Zealand and South Africa have never won one. Our performance hasn't been particularly bad in WCs either, losing a close semi-final in 2011.

- The ODI rankings are not particularly prestigious. It is far better to win ODI tournaments than be ranked #1 in this format. However, even then our players have been right up there in the ODI rankings with Ajmal enjoying a lengthy time at the top, Hasan and Hafeez getting to #1 as well and Babar, Junaid, Irfan and Afridi also being near the top at times.

- Is this 85 percent of lost series a real statistic? Even if it is, we have won major ODI series in India and South Africa since 2010. Not many teams can boast that.

- Everyone except South Africa gets thrashed there. However, we have a very good away record in places like England and New Zealand since 2010.

- It does not matter how brief it was. The fact remains that we were arguably the best test team during that time and were duly rewarded for our excellence. When was the last time England or New Zealand were ranked #1?

- Winning a series in the West Indies means that we have now won series in every test playing country except two. Nothing to scoff at.

- WT20 is still a trophy and that was just confirmation that for the longest time, we were the best T20 team in the world.

- Since 2010, we have never been in the news for the wrong reasons. Individual players chucking is not something that dishonors a nation.

- The fact remains that we did not lose a single series in the UAE throughout Misbah's captaincy. You talk about losing tests to the likes of South Africa and New Zealand as if they are minnows. We defied them and thrashed England and Australia. That is fantastic.

- That loss to Zimbabwe was a fluke. It happens.

Along with all this, we have also won the CT, Asia Cup, major test and ODI series, have had a great captain and now a great chief selector since 2010. So you see, your claims of this downward spiral are greatly exaggerated.

In fact, there is no downward spiral. We suddenly hit rock-bottom during 2007-2010 with one humiliation after another, infighting, no real leadership after Inzamam retired, poor performances soon following and it was capped off by the spot-fixing saga. However, since 2010, Pakistan cricket has only been upwards, Alhamdulillah, and I can see more glory (series wins in England and South Africa) and silverware (2019 WC) before this decade is over, InshAllah.
 
Younis Khan, Sarfaraz Ahmed and Yasir Shah would arguably make our all-time test XI. Perhaps even Azhar Ali.

Saeed Ajmal and Shahid Afridi/Mohammad Hafeez would arguably make our all-time ODI XI. Babar Azam might as well, depending on how he does in the next two years.

Our T20 XI would obviously be filled with players from the last ten years.

That's a pretty good representation of the 2010-decade and proves your argument false, [MENTION=131701]Mamoon[/MENTION].
 
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Reading A lot of negative posts about Pakistan may well lose this match...like why?

They are in the driving seat and I believe they are focused to do well in this match. I am predicting a Pakistan win here
 
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