England beat India by 227 runs in the 1st Test in Chennai

[Pakhs]

Bess was steady and bowled well in first innings but our batsmen were cocky and lost needless wickets.

Giving wickets to bess is the reason why they have lost.

 

[Stewie]

I cant say things against my belief just to look sporting.

That would be lying to myself.

Kohli was a good wicket.

Rajane, pujara and pant were gifts.

Pant strategy was known but that doesnt make it great bowling. Its just smart thinking and usual brainfade from pant which he had curbed in last gabba innings.

I dont mean to undermine bess and i do hope he goes on to do great things.... But those wickets in the first innings were gifts.

If you cant score in that patta in first innings, you dont deserve to win..

And thats exactly what happened.

Fair enough. But I think it’s probably putting a lot of eggs in the batting basket. It’s undeniably good but can’t expect to have a 100% record in bailing you out when staring at ~500 totals and then facing difficult questions from bowling. That’s test cricket. Good bowling overall pays. You may not get a wicket in a long spell of extremely good bowling but the pressure shows and sometimes the batsman throws it away on a bad delivery. The shot Pujara played was very uncharacteristic of him but did you notice how he had him tied up. Pujara can leave the ball all day but Bess packed the on side with two mid wickets and made him play that flick he plays. He knew sooner or later Pujara will play one in the air. So Pujara started going back to play more of a pull hit down to avoid playing it in the air. It was fascinating to watch how England planned to get Pujara. Typically you frustrate a batsman by not getting the feel of the ball in bat. But the trick to players like Pujara is to make them play more often so they make a mistake. And he did.

You may call it a lapse of judgment by the batsman, but I call it brilliant smart bowling.

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

This proves that India needs those rank turners to be invincible at home other wise if they lose the toss they can be in trouble. They lost this test match with two of the most inexperienced spin bowlers on show.

Simple reason why they keep demanding rank turners. I said on the first day this test pitch resembled more like before Dhoni / Kohli era subcontinental pitch and we have seen the result at no point England was in danger of scoring big in the first innings. Doctoring pitches in Dhoni era to begin with and continuation in Kholi era have made India invincible. It is still a big achievement so not trying to undermine India's achievement at home it clear other boards are trying to copy the foot print very recently Pakistan again SA where Rawalpindi pitch always favor the fast bowlers usually.

You are 100% wrong and inspite of having access to data, you refuse to use it.

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

Fair enough. But I think it’s probably putting a lot of eggs in the batting basket. It’s undeniably good but can’t expect to have a 100% record in bailing you out when staring at ~500 totals and then facing difficult questions from bowling. That’s test cricket. Good bowling overall pays. You may not get a wicket in a long spell of extremely good bowling but the pressure shows and sometimes the batsman throws it away on a bad delivery. The shot Pujara played was very uncharacteristic of him but did you notice how he had him tied up. Pujara can leave the ball all day but Bess packed the on side with two mid wickets and made him play that flick he plays. He knew sooner or later Pujara will play one in the air. So Pujara started going back to play more of a pull hit down to avoid playing it in the air. It was fascinating to watch how England planned to get Pujara. Typically you frustrate a batsman by not getting the feel of the ball in bat. But the trick to players like Pujara is to make them play more often so they make a mistake. And he did.

You may call it a lapse of judgment by the batsman, but I call it brilliant smart bowling.

Pujara was unlucky.

The shot was on.

It was a half tracker.

I agree with your post that staying consistent with scorecard pressure can make things happen and Jaddu is the biggest example of it.

Issue is that our bats were playing odi cricket with 4 rpo and were 70/4 before even getting set.

Then and there we lost 50% of the match.

Once pant got out to a stupid shot and pujara to an unlucky dismissal the game was pretty much gone.

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

Of course we didnt bowl well.

And our tactics left a lot to be desired.

Thats there too but in pattas, usually batsman are expected to make it count so focus is more on them.

Even with a good bowling lineup jn 2016, we conceded 400 many times on flat tracks but batting could hit 600 and the 2nd innings, the bowlees would go for the kill.

 

[Stewie]

The dip Bess was getting by the way had nothing to do with the flat wicket.. he started getting that dip and the spitting bounce pretty much right away.

But what do I know.

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

Pujara was unlucky.

The shot was on.

It was a half tracker.

I agree with your post that staying consistent with scorecard pressure can make things happen and Jaddu is the biggest example of it.

Issue is that our bats were playing odi cricket with 4 rpo and were 70/4 before even getting set.

Then and there we lost 50% of the match.

Once pant got out to a stupid shot and pujara to an unlucky dismissal the game was pretty much gone.

Just checked up..

We were at 4 rpo till gill was there...

It slowed down to 3 until Kohli and rahane got out (kohli was striking in 20s while pujara was batting at a fair clip)...

And then picked up to 4 rpo till pujara and pant got out... Then it crawled thereafter...

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

The dip Bess was getting by the way had nothing to do with the flat wicket.. he started getting that dip and the spitting bounce pretty much right away.

But what do I know.

If i havent given him enough credit, then let me do so.

Didnt mean to undermine him anyway.

But you saw how the wickets were thrown away. We were going at 4 rpo before pujara and pant threw it away.

 

[Stewie]

Agreed. It’s always a combo of a few things. Bess bowled well and the Indians didn’t bat as well as they could have. But simply blaming one side is not right.

That’s like saying India won in australia because the Aussie bowling was pathetic. Well it was, Starc never got going but india batted extremely well and deservedly got all the plaudits.

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

Agreed. It’s always a combo of a few things. Bess bowled well and the Indians didn’t bat as well as they could have. But simply blaming one side is not right.

That’s like saying India won in australia because the Aussie bowling was pathetic. Well it was, Starc never got going but india batted extremely well and deservedly got all the plaudits.

Yeah india batted well but that doesnt invalidate starc being horrible.

If we guve away 300 on an unplayable pitch, bowlwrs will take majority blame.

On a patta, batsman will.

Even with our full strength, we gave away 400 runs against england many times last series.

But guess what? Our batsman used those pitches to rack up runs and then bowlers came to party.

Equating blame here makes no sense.

This was a game where batsman failed.

We can blame nadeem all we want and ****** kohli captaincy but batsman had no business getting bundled out the way they did in first innings.

Priorities.

If we dont have that, there will be no accountability and we will keep distributing blame equally but not fairly.

 

[Stewie]

Gotta love test cricket though. Nothing matches it. 50 over lost it a long time ago with unnecessary restrictions. But good result oriented games like the India/Aus, Pak/SA series and now this test is what keeps me coming back to the cricket section. I hadn’t come here in a while till these two tests got me interested again.

Looking at a mouth watering three more tests. I expect india to dominate the next one though.

 

[Amjid Javed]

Congrats england on excellent win. Makes rest of series really interesting now.

 

[sweep_shot]

Congratulations, England. Great win.

 

[Pakhs]

You are 100% wrong and inspite of having access to data, you refuse to use it.

How am I not using the data and what sort of data? The trend started in that famous SA series where likes of Elgar got 5fer and been continued since then. I think it was you who I said on the first day this looked like a pre Dhoni era pitch it was so obvious. Virat and the team management will be having a few words.

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

How am I not using the data and what sort of data? The trend started in that famous SA series where likes of Elgar got 5fer and been continued since then. I think it was you who I said on the first day this looked like a pre Dhoni era pitch it was so obvious. Virat and the team management will be having a few words.

Life didnt end after the 2015 series you know.

Look up all the series that happened after that.

Except for 2017 series (first 2 games) you will barely find a rank turner. Actually none cos i know each and every game played herem

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

Life didnt end after the 2015 series you know.

Look up all the series that happened after that.

Except for 2017 series (first 2 games) you will barely find a rank turner. Actually none cos i know each and every game played herem

And yet we won all except 1 game in pune.

 

[Pakhs]

Life didnt end after the 2015 series you know.

Look up all the series that happened after that.

Except for 2017 series (first 2 games) you will barely find a rank turner. Actually none cos i know each and every game played herem

I say what I see, when I saw this pitch behave I called it straight away and did not wait for any result. And if this is how they going to produce the pitches from heron then I would be the first person to call it so. But I have seen too many rank turners in the last 10 years way more than usual pre Dhoni.

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

I say what I see, when I saw this pitch behave I called it straight away and did not wait for any result. And if this is how they going to produce the pitches from heron then I would be the first person to call it so. But I have seen too many rank turners in the last 10 years way more than usual pre Dhoni.

Name the rank turners in the last 10 years.

Lets see.

I am not sure you get the definition of rank turners (with all due respects) .

Pitches with a bit of spin aint a rank turner.

And it sure as hell aint doctoring cos thats how pitches in india play.

 

[Pakhs]

Name the rank turners in the last 10 years.

Lets see.

I am not sure you get the definition of rank turners (with all due respects) .

Pitches with a bit of spin aint a rank turner.

And it sure as hell aint doctoring cos thats how pitches in india play.

Traditional subcontinental pitch is flat for 2 days and then gradually starts to break up and aid spin. But recent pitches in India has been taking spin from 2nd session on wards more or less. If Kumble bowled on these pitches as often as Ashwin he would have ended up with 1000 wickets.

 

[silentkiller187]

Name the rank turners in the last 10 years.

Lets see.

I am not sure you get the definition of rank turners (with all due respects) .

Pitches with a bit of spin aint a rank turner.

And it sure as hell aint doctoring cos thats how pitches in india play.

Where’s all the experienced fans that were mocking joe roots tactics yesterday . I knew India couldn’t handle leach and Bess on a 5th day pitch , and people said 90 overs wasn’t enough to bowl India out, congrats to joe root and england brilliant win.

 

[Thunderbolt14]

Mamoon is in a really tough spots today haha

The challenge is to successfully hype up England and at the same time ensure that questions aren’t raised regarding Kohli’s captaincy or the strength and legacy of this Indian team.

Been a tough week. The challenge was previously to call Hassan Ali a terrible bowler and at the same time ensure questions aren’t raised about van der Dussen getting bowled to him consecutively, including a duck, on the way to a 10-fer.

Congrats England, though I expect India to still take the series 2-1 or 3-1.

 

[Pakhs]

Been a tough week. The challenge was previously to call Hassan Ali a terrible bowler and at the same time ensure questions aren’t raised about van der Dussen getting bowled to him consecutively, including a duck, on the way to a 10-fer.

Congrats England, though I expect India to still take the series 2-1 or 3-1.

He always struggles more when India loses for some reason as he goes all out defending...

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

Traditional subcontinental pitch is flat for 2 days and then gradually starts to break up and aid spin. But recent pitches in India has been taking spin from 2nd session on wards more or less. If Kumble bowled on these pitches as often as Ashwin he would have ended up with 1000 wickets.

Thats the issue.

You dont have the data .

Kumble bowled in 90s pitches which were worse than 2010s pitches...

2000s pitches were hard to bowl tho.

You saw a few games in 2000s and formed your opinion on how pitches in India should be.

Who said traditional wickets should be flat for 2 days and only take turn...

As long as bounce is true, its a good pitch.

These are all gora definitions on what a oitch should be... You knwo why..

Cos in their land its how it works.

Helps seamers for first 2 days.. Flat on day 3...helps spinnera on day 4 and 5.

You name the rank turners in the last 10 years....

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

Where’s all the experienced fans that were mocking joe roots tactics yesterday . I knew India couldn’t handle leach and Bess on a 5th day pitch , and people said 90 overs wasn’t enough to bowl India out, congrats to joe root and england brilliant win.

India didnt lose to leach or bess on day 5 but anderson.

He broke our backs.

Anyways.. Coming back to our topic...

Yes england bundled us out but how dies that prove or disprove anything other than the fact that their approach worked for this game...

How does that validate batting the last session withoit scoring any runs or going for declaration...

It was a bad move as mentioned by all posters here (including english posters) but it worked for england...

The problem with our discussion was that there was no metric to objectively judge the passage of play.

Results wise, as you said, englabd did win... But then so did we when we said we cud still lose the game but england gave us a gift...

 

[Pakhs]

Thats the issue.

You dont have the data .

Kumble bowled in 90s pitches which were worse than 2010s pitches...

2000s pitches were hard to bowl tho.

You saw a few games in 2000s and formed your opinion on how pitches in India should be.

Who said traditional wickets should be flat for 2 days and only take turn...

As long as bounce is true, its a good pitch.

These are all gora definitions on what a oitch should be... You knwo why..

Cos in their land its how it works.

Helps seamers for first 2 days.. Flat on day 3...helps spinnera on day 4 and 5.

You name the rank turners in the last 10 years....

Agreed 2010s were flatter than 90s but he also bowled a lot in 2000s same as harbhjan who bowled a lot on flat wickets and has openly said so.

I am saying that's how traditional subcontinent wickets were atleast 10/15 years prior to Dhoni and then he changed it and tbh he did not hide it. I am not undermining India's performances at home you still have to have a strong side to become invincible at anything. You can see other board trying such as SL who themselves get bowled out too cheaply.

 

[Dingolfy]

This proves that India needs those rank turners to be invincible at home other wise if they lose the toss they can be in trouble. They lost this test match with two of the most inexperienced spin bowlers on show.

Simple reason why they keep demanding rank turners. I said on the first day this test pitch resembled more like before Dhoni / Kohli era subcontinental pitch and we have seen the result at no point England was in danger of scoring big in the first innings. Doctoring pitches in Dhoni era to begin with and continuation in Kholi era have made India invincible. It is still a big achievement so not trying to undermine India's achievement at home it clear other boards are trying to copy the foot print very recently Pakistan again SA where Rawalpindi pitch always favor the fast bowlers usually.

Rank turners will bite you back if you bat second as in Pune. And none of the pitches in 2016 were rank turners and still England lost 4-0.

 

[Pakhs]

Rank turners will bite you back if you bat second as in Pune. And none of the pitches in 2016 were rank turners and still England lost 4-0.

No what rank turner does is that it keeps the likes and jadeja and Ashwin relevant even in the first innings.

 

[Pakhs]

Rank turners will bite you back if you bat second as in Pune. And none of the pitches in 2016 were rank turners and still England lost 4-0.

They were no pitches in 2016 were as flat on first two days as this one.. Ashwin and Jadeja were still kept relevant from 3rd session onward. Kohli has been speaking after this test and been saying it just seemed like nothing was happening for the first two days why did he not say so in 2016?

 

[Dingolfy]

No what rank turner does is that it keeps the likes and jadeja and Ashwin relevant even in the first innings.

It also makes the likes of Okeefe unplayable. And our current batsmen are progressively worse at playing spin on a rank turner than their predecessors.

 

[Pakhs]

It also makes the likes of Okeefe unplayable. And our current batsmen are progressively worse at playing spin on a rank turner than their predecessors.

Yes it does but Ashwin and Jadeja combo on turners are better than any other combo which has been proven beyond doubt.

 

[silentkiller187]

India didnt lose to leach or bess on day 5 but anderson.

He broke our backs.

Anyways.. Coming back to our topic...

Yes england bundled us out but how dies that prove or disprove anything other than the fact that their approach worked for this game...

How does that validate batting the last session withoit scoring any runs or going for declaration...

It was a bad move as mentioned by all posters here (including english posters) but it worked for england...

The problem with our discussion was that there was no metric to objectively judge the passage of play.

Results wise, as you said, englabd did win... But then so did we when we said we cud still lose the game but england gave us a gift...

You just answered your own question, you don’t approach every game the same way. Like I mentioned yesterday, England is a data driven analytical team, do you think they were batting blindly yesterday, how do you know they weren’t grinding India down mentally or playing with their heads they had a plan and it workedEd for them and they won, not sure what other metric you require. I’m sorry an arm chair fan did not agree with it but theirs a reason why joe root and Chris silver wood are paid the big bucks. Looks like you need to worry more about India’s woes at the moment then criticise the opposition.

 

[Dingolfy]

They were no pitches in 2016 were as flat on first two days as this one.. Ashwin and Jadeja were still kept relevant from 3rd session onward. Kohli has been speaking after this test and been saying it just seemed like nothing was happening for the first two days why did he not say so in 2016?

Last pitch in Chennai was flatter than this one. How else do you think Karun Nair scored a freaking triple hundred and with another bowler scoring a century on a freaking fourth day.
Kohli would definitely blame the pitch as they lost.

 

[Dingolfy]

Yes it does but Ashwin and Jadeja combo on turners are better than any other combo which has been proven beyond doubt.

Where is the data for this proof? I think your idea of a ‘rank turner’ is skewed. Nobody scored triple hundreds while batting second on a fourth day on a ‘rank turner’. Not even Prime Sehwag can do that.

 

[Pakhs]

Last pitch in Chennai was flatter than this one. How else do you think Karun Nair scored a freaking triple hundred and with another bowler scoring a century on a freaking fourth day.
Kohli would definitely blame the pitch as they lost.

Not really, it was because England bowlers bowled so poorly opposition still has to play well thats where credit to England but my comments are regardless to results as I called this pitch out on day 1. That pitch was not turning square but there was turn available from very early still as compared to this one.

 

[Titan24]

Definitely one of the most memorable overseas win for Eng. Congrats!

 

[Pakhs]

Where is the data for this proof? I think your idea of a ‘rank turner’ is skewed. Nobody scored triple hundreds while batting second on a fourth day on a ‘rank turner’. Not even Prime Sehwag can do that.

When I say rank turner does not automatically mean turning square from ball 1 but there is turn available. Regarding proof about Jadeja and Ashwin just look at their averages at home. Jadeja has been even better than kumble which says it all.

 

[the Great Khan]

Last pitch in Chennai was flatter than this one. How else do you think Karun Nair scored a freaking triple hundred and with another bowler scoring a century on a freaking fourth day.
Kohli would definitely blame the pitch as they lost.

by the way what happened to Nair? I had forgotten all about him!!

 

[Mesozoic]

Well played England. One of those games where you just have to tip your hat off to the opposition and move on.
Anderson's 30 minute spell of reverse swing bowling was simply breathtaking and that might have won the game for England....

Interesting to see if India does a 'Australia 2017' again by coming bavk strongly or England does a 2012.

 

[Dingolfy]

When I say rank turner does not automatically mean turning square from ball 1 but there is turn available. Regarding proof about Jadeja and Ashwin just look at their averages at home. Jadeja has been even better than kumble which says it all.

Bhaijan, cricket ball turns on any surface. Its the amount that makes it a rank turner.

Jadeja’s better record than Kumble has to do with deteriorating spin-playing skills of current generation batsmen compared to the ones Kumble played against. Forget about others, even current gen Indian and Pakistani batsmen are nowhere near the spin playing abilities of their predecessors who played with Kumble.

 

[Dingolfy]

by the way what happened to Nair? I had forgotten all about him!!

Failed in the next series against Australia and then discarded.

 

[Dingolfy]

Not really, it was because England bowlers bowled so poorly opposition still has to play well thats where credit to England but my comments are regardless to results as I called this pitch out on day 1. That pitch was not turning square but there was turn available from very early still as compared to this one.

Do you have any cricviz data or something to prove your statement other than mere observation? And remember England scored 450 plus on that pitch too with the likes of Moeen Ali scoring 146. That ain’t no rank turner by any means. It was just a normal flat pitch.

 

[Pakhs]

Bhaijan, cricket ball turns on any surface. Its the amount that makes it a rank turner.

Jadeja’s better record than Kumble has to do with deteriorating spin-playing skills of current generation batsmen compared to the ones Kumble played against. Forget about others, even current gen Indian and Pakistani batsmen are nowhere near the spin playing abilities of their predecessors who played with Kumble.

Do you have any cricviz data or something to prove your statement other than mere observation? And remember England scored 450 plus on that pitch too with the likes of Moeen Ali scoring 146. That ain’t no rank turner by any means. It was just a normal flat pitch.

Some of what you say about spin playing ability might be true but not so much that Jadeja becomes better than kumble. Jadeja has got more assistance than kumble on average and that is due to wickets aiding more spin. Even harbhajan admitted to it.

 

[Dingolfy]

Some of what you say about spin playing ability might be true but not so much that Jadeja becomes better than kumble. Jadeja has got more assistance than kumble on average and that is due to wickets aiding more spin. Even harbhajan admitted to it.

What you are saying is all just hearsay. Give me some solid data like from crivviz comparing the average turn Kumble got vs Jadeja and then we can decide. You have to just look at the humongous runs scored on that 2016 series to understand how flat those wickets were.

 

[Stewie]

Some of what you say about spin playing ability might be true but not so much that Jadeja becomes better than kumble. Jadeja has got more assistance than kumble on average and that is due to wickets aiding more spin. Even harbhajan admitted to it.

Now I have heard it all! Batsmen from a Kumble’ sera were better players of spin than batsmen of today? Really? What a load of bull!

The ability of modern day batsmen from England, Australia, NZ and SA to play spin has increased immensely due to exposure in IPL.
England and SA batsmen used to be utterly clueless against spin. But now we have Root, Amla, AB, Williamson, Smith who are far superior players of spin than their compatriots of yesteryears.

 

[Buffet]

Fantastic win by Eng. Makes this series interesting.

 

[Stewie]

There was a time when most non subcontinental batsmen would play only the sweep against spin in the subcontinent. They didn’t know how else to tackle the spin and the dusty wickets.
Now they use their feet like asian batsmen. They have come a long long way.

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

You just answered your own question, you don’t approach every game the same way. Like I mentioned yesterday, England is a data driven analytical team, do you think they were batting blindly yesterday, how do you know they weren’t grinding India down mentally or playing with their heads they had a plan and it workedEd for them and they won, not sure what other metric you require. I’m sorry an arm chair fan did not agree with it but theirs a reason why joe root and Chris silver wood are paid the big bucks. Looks like you need to worry more about India’s woes at the moment then criticise the opposition.

lmao....

Yeah so by that same token, even Indian team is paid big bucks to analyze.

heck every team is.

Us peasants won't even last against domestic bowlers and here we are criticizing international players.

There is a reason why they are at the top of their game and people like you & me are in an unknown corner of the internet discussing their strategies.

They know what they are doing.

So why don't we just close the forum and not discuss anything?

 

[silentkiller187]

lmao....

Yeah so by that same token, even Indian team is paid big bucks to analyze.

heck every team is.

Us peasants won't even last against domestic bowlers and here we are criticizing international players.

There is a reason why they are at the top of their game and people like you & me are in an unknown corner of the internet discussing their strategies.

They know what they are doing.

So why don't we just close the forum and not discuss anything?

Seems like Indian analysts are being paid too much after a performance like that.

I haven’t criticised any players, you criticised joe root / England tactics yesterday and today you have egg on your face.

All I said was trust the process and the tactics, This England coaching setup are not stupid and theirs a reason why they are professional, don’t take it so personally.

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

Agreed 2010s were flatter than 90s but he also bowled a lot in 2000s same as harbhjan who bowled a lot on flat wickets and has openly said so.

I am saying that's how traditional subcontinent wickets were atleast 10/15 years prior to Dhoni and then he changed it and tbh he did not hide it. I am not undermining India's performances at home you still have to have a strong side to become invincible at anything. You can see other board trying such as SL who themselves get bowled out too cheaply.

First of all, if you wanna rate Kumble and Bhajji higher than Ash & jaddu...that's fine.

But don't use Bhajji's statements bro. That guy is like Warne. Can't even be taken seriously. If you have been following his saga closely, you would see the pattern of trying to undermine Indian spinners. He was trolled badly by Indians in Twitter.

I am saying that's how traditional subcontinent wickets were atleast 10/15 years prior to Dhoni and then he changed it and tbh he did not hide it. I am not undermining India's performances at home you still have to have a strong side to become invincible at anything. You can see other board trying such as SL who themselves get bowled out too cheaply.

All I am saying is there are soo many variety of pitches in Asia.

There is rank turners (hardest to play). Low scoring.

Then there are rare rank turners which are high scoring (think Chennai 2013 when Aus themselves put 380 in first innings and India responded with 500+...the ball was spinning like a top from day 1 yet the bounce was true and runs were there for the taking).

Then there are good turners.

Then slow turners.

Then there are deadish pitches with super slow turn. Hard to score runs. hard to pick wickets. Think UAE first 3 days.

Then there are complete pattas.

I am just talking about pitches for spinners. These pitches may or may not favour pacers. Its a mixed bag.

---

Now coming to history:

90s - Super spin tracks. We won everything at home. Nothing away.

2000s - Super flat tracks. Our batting gen benefitted massively out of it but we hardly whitewashed teams at home and our bowlers had their stats affected by it. Entire decade wasn't like this but the amount of dull pitches were a lot.

2010s - Lively pitches of all types.

Early 2012 - 15...there were more fast and rank turners mixed in other pitches...

But post 2015...the pitches changed.

2016 NZ series - Good turner in first test, pace friendly pitch in 2nd and a turner again in 3rd (nothing like 2015 ones as you can see in scorecard)
2016 Eng series - Flat tracks
2017 Aus series - Turners for first 2 tests, flat track in Ranchi and a pacy track in Dharmashala
2019 SA series - Flat tracks

---

Dhoni didn't come and doctor all pitches.

India did doctor a few to our advantage and the list is easily available.

But overall, there has been a healthy mix of all types of pitches.

In fact, Aus were served a pacy pitch for the decider in 2017.

 

[Stewie]

lmao....

Yeah so by that same token, even Indian team is paid big bucks to analyze.

heck every team is.

Us peasants won't even last against domestic bowlers and here we are criticizing international players.

There is a reason why they are at the top of their game and people like you & me are in an unknown corner of the internet discussing their strategies.

They know what they are doing.

So why don't we just close the forum and not discuss anything?

You gotta admit though that they did their homework and executed their plans well. Planning and analysis is worthless without execution. India perhaps over estimated their ability which they won’t do again and why I think they will come back stronger in the next one

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

Seems like Indian analysts are being paid too much after a performance like that.

I haven’t criticised any players, you criticised joe root / England tactics yesterday and today you have egg on your face.

All I said was trust the process and the tactics, This England coaching setup are not stupid and theirs a reason why they are professional, don’t take it so personally.

You think calling out a stupid strategy is called having an egg on your face.

Yeah don't criticize anyone ever again cos according to your logic, you are a nobody and they are paid big bucks to do what they are doing.

So come to PP, give some pointless running commentary on what's happening and go.

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

You gotta admit though that they did their homework and executed their plans well. Planning and analysis is worthless without execution. India perhaps over estimated their ability which they won’t do again and why I think they will come back stronger in the next one

All true.

I am addressing the poster here.

Its a classic case of looking at the end result and determining the value of something.

India has won COUNTLESS games with absolute ridiculous strategies.

It would be a piece of cake to defend it after our wins.

But cometh the tough tours and all the wrong strategies blow up in our face.

Heck our 2017 CT and 2019 WC are the best examples of strategies going wrong.

We win everywhere in bilaterals only to end up flopping when it matters the most.

Why? Cos the core strategy is all wrong.

Just cos some "crorepati" has deviced it doesn't mean he's God and not subject to scrutiny.

 

[Slog]

But didn’t some balls kept very low like the one which got Rahane?

Obv that happened a few times (most notably Kohli wickets but that would happen literally on any 5th day wicket. Generally in India 5th day wickets are much more disintegrated

 

[Stewie]

All true.

I am addressing the poster here.

Its a classic case of looking at the end result and determining the value of something.

India has won COUNTLESS games with absolute ridiculous strategies.

It would be a piece of cake to defend it after our wins.

But cometh the tough tours and all the wrong strategies blow up in our face.

Heck our 2017 CT and 2019 WC are the best examples of strategies going wrong.

We win everywhere in bilaterals only to end up flopping when it matters the most.

Why? Cos the core strategy is all wrong.

Just cos some "crorepati" has deviced it doesn't mean he's God and not subject to scrutiny.

That is an interesting take and i concur. I think of all the Asian teams probably Sri Lanka is the only one that knows how alto strategize and make most of their limited resources. India and Pakistan mostly feel like “winging it” as they go. They rely on the immense talent.

India, I always felt had a very one trick strategy. They rely heavily on their batting and putting a big score on the board or have immense confidence in chasing any total. But it falls flat if they lose key wickets. Like you said the 2017 champions trophy final is an example of that. Pakistan tends to rely on putting a half decent score and their bowlers then doing the job. But when bowlers fail, they fall apart.

So it’s very true in a way. There is very little moving out of their comfort zones or thinking outside the box.

 

[Slog]

It was not a good last day pitch. Did you not see the Kohli dismissal?

That much uneven bounce is normal.

By a normal 5th day indian pitch standard you’re likely to see worse pitches in India 4 out of 5 times

 

[Slog]

This proves that India needs those rank turners to be invincible at home other wise if they lose the toss they can be in trouble. They lost this test match with two of the most inexperienced spin bowlers on show.

Simple reason why they keep demanding rank turners. I said on the first day this test pitch resembled more like before Dhoni / Kohli era subcontinental pitch and we have seen the result at no point England was in danger of scoring big in the first innings. Doctoring pitches in Dhoni era to begin with and continuation in Kholi era have made India invincible. It is still a big achievement so not trying to undermine India's achievement at home it clear other boards are trying to copy the foot print very recently Pakistan again SA where Rawalpindi pitch always favor the fast bowlers usually.

This post is a result of extreme bias + little understanding of cricket.

India purposely serving rank turners! Heck their batting against spinners is as bad as the rest of the international teams.

 

[MP2011]

This post is a result of extreme bias + little understanding of cricket.

India purposely serving rank turners! Heck their batting against spinners is as bad as the rest of the international teams.

This.

Thanks for putting it succinctly.

 

[silentkiller187]

You think calling out a stupid strategy is called having an egg on your face.

Yeah don't criticize anyone ever again cos according to your logic, you are a nobody and they are paid big bucks to do what they are doing.

So come to PP, give some pointless running commentary on what's happening and go.

Of course I do, especially when the strategy works perfectly well and you get your desired end result. I don’t understand what your point is, I made my opinion yesterday and you chose to argue against it, unfortunately England proved me right, tomorrow they might prove me wrong, don’t take it personally, India’s think tank needs to come back harder

 

[Slog]

Yes it does but Ashwin and Jadeja combo on turners are better than any other combo which has been proven beyond doubt.

Oh bhai it’s the pace attack which has been doing most of the job in first innings.

Apart from 2015 SA series, Pune match against Aus and perhaps a couple here and there; pitches have been generally sporting.

Not sure you know what a rank turners is if you’re making this claim. Obv pitches in India WILL spin to some degree and get more spinning as the match progresses so if that’s your definition of a rank turner then good for you.

Besides Indian batting against spin is as mediocre as any side in international cricket so it’s not even in their interest to have total rank turners and make the match a lottery

 

[Stewie]

I was busy watching the Pak-SA game but from
What I saw, India does need to shake off the complacency and come up with a plan to deal with a very well balanced England side. They have a very balanced bowling attack and their batting is a bit green, so india needs to figure out how to get through their top 4-5 cheaply. Flat wickets or not, that is the challenge because their bowlers seem to have come prepared with plans for all the Indian batsmen... and Indian bowlers apparently either didn’t have decent plans or failed to execute them.

 

[silentkiller187]

All true.

I am addressing the poster here.

Its a classic case of looking at the end result and determining the value of something.

India has won COUNTLESS games with absolute ridiculous strategies.

It would be a piece of cake to defend it after our wins.

But cometh the tough tours and all the wrong strategies blow up in our face.

Heck our 2017 CT and 2019 WC are the best examples of strategies going wrong.

We win everywhere in bilaterals only to end up flopping when it matters the most.

Why? Cos the core strategy is all wrong.

Just cos some "crorepati" has deviced it doesn't mean he's God and not subject to scrutiny.

Let’s not forget joe root/silver wood combo won a World Cup as well so give them a bit of credit that’s all I’m asking for

 

[Buffet]

Oh bhai it’s the pace attack which has been doing most of the job in first innings.

Apart from 2015 SA series, Pune match against Aus and perhaps a couple here and there; pitches have been generally sporting.

Not sure you know what a rank turners is if you’re making this claim. Obv pitches in India WILL spin to some degree and get more spinning as the match progresses so if that’s your definition of a rank turner then good for you.

Besides Indian batting against spin is as mediocre as any side in international cricket so it’s not even in their interest to have total rank turners and make the match a lottery

I don't think anyone watching cricket will have 10 years old impression of rank turners and yet some posters keep posting that.

 

[Stewie]

Where did Bess come from all of a sudden? I know he has been around but he looked a completely different bowler in the first test. Has he recently been coached by Saq or Swann or something? The high arm action, the lines he bowled, he bounce and turn he got... very conventional off breaks but almost reminded me of spinners from the 80s, 90s and 2000s.. none of the flat shooters stuff to beat the bat spinners do these days. He flighted the ball and invited the bat to come and make contact.

 

[JaDed]

Don't you dare go to sleep

I woke up in the middle to be heartbroken congratulated English fans and tried to sleep, terrible can't believe even at this age losing tests hurt.

 

[Titan24]

I think Indian bowling attack was one dimensional and as I said on the first day they could have possibly gone with 3 seamers. Even if they wanted to go with 3 spinners than selecting three finger spinners didnt make much sense. While Sundar atleast scored some runs as he was playing as an all rounder, his bowling was ordinary in the match and even Nadeem nowhere as accurate as you expect the finger spinner to be.

Nadeem had an economy of 3.80 and 4.40 in 1st and 2nd innings respectively. Sundar also went at 3.80 in the 1st innings while only bowler on over in the 2nd innings. This is just unacceptable for finger spinners to be going at such a rate and that too on a wicket like Chennai.

A 3rd seamer would have possibly allowed better control as Indian pacers have been pretty accurate for sometime now and if a 3rd spinner had to be played than it should have been a wrist spinner. Even if they dont want Kuldeep than they should bring in a leggy like Markande, Rahul Chahar as that would have atleast provided some variety.

If Axar Patel is fit than he should automatically come in for Sundar as he is accurate enough to hold an end, has decent height to extract any bounce and a decent enough batsman. While Nadeem should either be replaced by a wrist spinner or a pacer. If Hardik is available to bowl than it can open other combinations as well.

Indian batting on the other hand by the looks of it wasnt ready to grind it out and play a big innings. In Indian conditions you just cant keep on playing your shots which you can do that in Aus for example and Eng batsman followed the perfect plan in the first innings on Indian wickets where they took their time and played long innings and set up a big score.

 

[Stewie]

I am just curious why india didn’t play Jadeja, Shami, Chahal and that other left arm spinner forgot his name?

Are those guys injured? Or are they rotating and trying new players?

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

Of course I do, especially when the strategy works perfectly well and you get your desired end result. I don’t understand what your point is, I made my opinion yesterday and you chose to argue against it, unfortunately England proved me right, tomorrow they might prove me wrong, don’t take it personally, India’s think tank needs to come back harder

Not taking personally at all.

Its a forum and we are just debating things here.

Differing viewpoints are fine but the moment we start talking about how these analysts would know more about us...the discussion is pretty much over, isn't it?

A strategy may be right and the outcome may not be.

And vice versa.

Unfortunately, we didn't have an objective way to evaluate whether England's approach was right or wrong.

But if results are anything to go by, they won and the strategy worked.

Just that results are not always the right indicators (we differ here obviously).

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

I am just curious why india didn’t play Jadeja, Shami, Chahal and that other left arm spinner forgot his name?

Are those guys injured? Or are they rotating and trying new players?

Jadeja injured.

Shami injured.

Chahal not a test bowler.

Axar injured.

 

[Slim]

An epic phainta and humiliation.

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

Let’s not forget joe root/silver wood combo won a World Cup as well so give them a bit of credit that’s all I’m asking for

For sure...they deserve the credit.

By the way, it was Trevor Bayliss who was the coach for the WC.

England's ODI strategy is a blueprint for all.

Been crying hoarse about how they are so far ahead of others in terms of mindset while we are still stuck with worshipping stat boosters lol.

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

Not taking personally at all.

Its a forum and we are just debating things here.

Differing viewpoints are fine but the moment we start talking about how these analysts would know more about us...the discussion is pretty much over, isn't it?

A strategy may be right and the outcome may not be.

And vice versa.

Unfortunately, we didn't have an objective way to evaluate whether England's approach was right or wrong.

But if results are anything to go by, they won and the strategy worked.

Just that results are not always the right indicators (we differ here obviously).

Sustained results are.

Every approach is symptom of a deeper thinking process.

Not looking deep into England's thinking process...but to give you a perspective:

India's harakiri selection errors didn't cost us any series from 2015-18...but then it ended up costing us a LOT in the long run.

 

[silentkiller187]

Not taking personally at all.

Its a forum and we are just debating things here.

Differing viewpoints are fine but the moment we start talking about how these analysts would know more about us...the discussion is pretty much over, isn't it?

A strategy may be right and the outcome may not be.

And vice versa.

Unfortunately, we didn't have an objective way to evaluate whether England's approach was right or wrong.

But if results are anything to go by, they won and the strategy worked.

Just that results are not always the right indicators (we differ here obviously).

In sport results are the biggest indicator as to whether a strategy works or not, this was not a close match, England were in control from start to finish, so I think we can safely agree ENGLANDS strategy worked? I just feel like posters on here were quick to criticise and jump on root andEngland last night just before the close of play without looking at the match situation as a whole, 90 overs on a fifth day pitch was more than enough, those posters have gone awfully quite today. This is why I made the comment there’s a reason why analysts make the big bucks because they proved these posters wrong.

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

In sport results are the biggest indicator as to whether a strategy works or not, this was not a close match, England were in control from start to finish, so I think we can safely agree ENGLANDS strategy worked? I just feel like posters on here were quick to criticise and jump on root andEngland last night just before the close of play without looking at the match situation as a whole, 90 overs on a fifth day pitch was more than enough, those posters have gone awfully quite today. This is why I made the comment there’s a reason why analysts make the big bucks because they proved these posters wrong.

#551.

 

[Stewie]

Jadeja injured.

Shami injured.

Chahal not a test bowler.

Axar injured.

That explains a lot. I was actually thinking Kuldeep yadav. I’m guessing he is not used in tests either?

 

[silentkiller187]

Sustained results are.

Every approach is symptom of a deeper thinking process.

Not looking deep into England's thinking process...but to give you a perspective:

India's harakiri selection errors didn't cost us any series from 2015-18...but then it ended up costing us a LOT in the long run.

I think your looking to deep into it, England chose to grind India down last night just before close of play, everyone was waiting for the declaration, they played mental mind games and put India into a false sense of comfort, and the Indian fans fell for it. That in my opinion was the perfect strategy, they may have batted an extra 30 overs but the match was won with more than 30 overs to spare so it shows they made the right call.

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

In sport results are the biggest indicator as to whether a strategy works or not, this was not a close match, England were in control from start to finish, so I think we can safely agree ENGLANDS strategy worked? I just feel like posters on here were quick to criticise and jump on root andEngland last night just before the close of play without looking at the match situation as a whole, 90 overs on a fifth day pitch was more than enough, those posters have gone awfully quite today. This is why I made the comment there’s a reason why analysts make the big bucks because they proved these posters wrong.

At the end of the day, the BIGGEST win England had was Pujara got out.

We were short by around 45-50 overs...

Had he stayed...with Kohli, they could have stayed for long and the batsman succeeding them would have been facing tired bowlers and draw would have been very very close.

Pitch had some balls keeping low but even Ashwin was playing well here and got out to a stupid shot.

Some application and a draw was possible.

This is why you can't base everything on immediate results.

Another day, this could have just as easily gone the other way.

A strategy is NOT right or wrong based on how it plays out.

It's right or wrong based on how it's decided with the info you have.

Thats my point.

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

I think your looking to deep into it, England chose to grind India down last night just before close of play, everyone was waiting for the declaration, they played mental mind games and put India into a false sense of comfort, and the Indian fans fell for it. That in my opinion was the perfect strategy, they may have batted an extra 30 overs but the match was won with more than 30 overs to spare so it shows they made the right call.

Winners write history.

Now we can wax lyricals about how looking "weak" was part of their strategy.

But dead batting aimlessly in last session on Day 4 did look stupid.

Just that it didn't cost them.

 

[silentkiller187]

At the end of the day, the BIGGEST win England had was Pujara got out.

We were short by around 45-50 overs...

Had he stayed...with Kohli, they could have stayed for long and the batsman succeeding them would have been facing tired bowlers and draw would have been very very close.

Pitch had some balls keeping low but even Ashwin was playing well here and got out to a stupid shot.

Some application and a draw was possible.

This is why you can't base everything on immediate results.

Another day, this could have just as easily gone the other way.

A strategy is NOT right or wrong based on how it plays out.

It's right or wrong based on how it's decided with the info you have.

Thats my point.

Your taking this arguement to somewhere it does not need to go. I’m not here to discuss England’s long term strategy, I am discussing the quick fire decision they had to make in the heat of battle to continue batting or not continue to bat, this had a direct affect on the result of the game, which England won, therefore it validates the decision they made. If England lost because they couldn’t take the remaining 2 wickets need to win before end of day then you can say they were wrong. You can mention Pujara etc but then your discrediting England’s ability again.In the same way I can say India is lucky Anderson didn’t get pujara out earlier.?

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

That explains a lot. I was actually thinking Kuldeep yadav. I’m guessing he is not used in tests either?

Ash, Axar and Kuldeep were supposed to play.

With Ash and Axar good with the bat.

Once Axar injured, they went with Sundar for the batting option.

Now they had 3 spinners bringing the ball in and no one doing it the other way.

So out goes Kuldeep and in comes Nadeem.

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

Your taking this arguement to somewhere it does not need to go. I’m not here to discuss England’s long term strategy, I am discussing the quick fire decision they had to make in the heat of battle to continue batting or not continue to bat, this had a direct affect on the result of the game, which England won, therefore it validates the decision they made. If England lost because they couldn’t take the remaining 2 wickets need to win before end of day then you can say they were wrong. You can mention Pujara etc but then your discrediting England’s ability again.In the same way I can say India is lucky Anderson didn’t get pujara out earlier.?

Meh.

Hardly discrediting England's win.

You seem to not look beyond binary thinking. I ain't even talking about long term strategy with the Pujara example.

You can applaud England while being critical of their strategy.

You can talk about the realities of how the test could have been saved by India while praising England for doing their job.

Let's leave it here.