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England vs New Zealand | 2nd Test | Leeds | May 29-Jun 2, 2015

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It's an epic battle of attrition vs aggression. Let's see who win, and we should wait for the result before jumping onto conclusions.
 
Good stat from Nasser Hussain - England's bowlers are the best in the world against batsmen positioned 1-5 averaging 36.

But against tail enders they are second worst.

NZ will be happy with 350 after being 2-2 but Cook and Lyth have started really well and England in control.
 
CricketAnalyst said:
Bhai, do you not understand what IF means?

I said IF X then Y.

That is NOT the same thing as saying Y.

Just think about this for a few seconds.
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Yes sir, I know exactly what you said. A good ball IS bound to get you out. That doesn't mean you start slogging at everything because that will make you vulnerable even to the bad ones.
 
Markhor said:
Good stat from Nasser Hussain - England's bowlers are the best in the world against batsmen positioned 1-5 averaging 36.

But against tail enders they are second worst.

NZ will be happy with 350 after being 2-2 but Cook and Lyth have started really well and England in control.
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Interesting stuff. I don't know why some people think that South Africa are the only good bowling attack in the world, right now.
 
I wonder if Pakistan can whitewash this English team. The bowling attack doesn't seem like it will pose much of a threat but getting eight batsmen out would be challenging if the pitches are flat.
 
Bilal7 said:
I wonder if Pakistan can whitewash this English team. The bowling attack doesn't seem like it will pose much of a threat but getting eight batsmen out would be challenging if the pitches are flat.
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I still maintain that PAK will demolish ENG in die UAE. I suppose I'll reassess after we play them in December/next year.
 
Ozymandiasza said:
I still maintain that PAK will demolish ENG in die UAE. I suppose I'll reassess after we play them in December/next year.
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We play them before you do. Although playing them in South Africa will hardly tell you anything about their ability in the subcontinent.
 
Opinions on Lyth? Will he succeed where the likes of Carberry, Trott and what's his name, failed?
 
Seems Cook's epic hundred at Lords have made these bowlers weak. They are low in their speed compared to Lords.
 
Bilal7 said:
We play them before you do. Although playing them in South Africa will hardly tell you anything about their ability in the subcontinent.
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Ah, didn't know/forgot you're playing them this year. Good luck then.

It wouldn't have told me anything about them in the subcontinent but it would have greatly influenced my opinion of them.
 
Mark Craig is a terrible bowler. Not sure why they've selected him after he played a large part in losing the last test.
 
Can't criticise New Zealand's tactics. Latham dug in and anchored the innings, allowing his partners to be aggressive. That's sensible, isn't it, to ask your opener to bat through, and let more attacking players use his steady presence at the other end to freely play their shots?
 
Pantani said:
Can't criticise New Zealand's tactics. Latham dug in and anchored the innings, allowing his partners to be aggressive. That's sensible, isn't it, to ask your opener to bat through, and let more attacking players use his steady presence at the other end to freely play their shots?
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I think it's a lot more nuanced than that.
All batsmen must have the ability to temper their game according to the match situation. Its not one batsman's job.
Part of test cricket that put pressure on teams is how long either side have to spend on the park.
England's bowlers have done their one day a few over stint and now hoping for a well earned two day break because (a) england will look to bat once and (b) this is a good pitch and (c) they will get will have two days to dismiss NZ if England manage to bat two days.
The players owe it to the public to entertain but it is not a mutually exclusive exercise to winning.
 
Ozymandiasza said:
Ah, didn't know/forgot you're playing them this year. Good luck then.

It wouldn't have told me anything about them in the subcontinent but it would have greatly influenced my opinion of them.
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Thanks, and good luck to the Proteas too. Not that they will need it. :abdv :amla :steyn
 
f.b.m said:
Mark Craig is a terrible bowler. Not sure why they've selected him after he played a large part in losing the last test.
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People say that guys like Craig and Ali are terrible spinners but the reality is, they are the best their respective teams have got.
 
Pete Rose said:
I think it's a lot more nuanced than that.
All batsmen must have the ability to temper their game according to the match situation. Its not one batsman's job.
Part of test cricket that put pressure on teams is how long either side have to spend on the park.
England's bowlers have done their one day a few over stint and now hoping for a well earned two day break because (a) england will look to bat once and (b) this is a good pitch and (c) they will get will have two days to dismiss NZ if England manage to bat two days.
The players owe it to the public to entertain but it is not a mutually exclusive exercise to winning.
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This is an important point. New Zealand could do well to slow down their batting. If for nothing else it would let their bowlers have longer rests and tire out the opposition bowlers.
 
Bilal7 said:
People say that guys like Craig and Ali are terrible spinners but the reality is, they are the best their respective teams have got.
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Yes, spin bowling is in a very poor state all around the world. Herath is top class. Then there are others who are okay, like Ashwin and Lyon. After that there's nothing else.
 
Pantani said:
Yes, spin bowling is in a very poor state all around the world. Herath is top class. Then there are others who are okay, like Ashwin and Lyon. After that there's nothing else.
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Agreed. Even someone like Lyon is a poor bowler when you compare him with spin bowlers of the past. We already lost genuinely fast bowlers and genuinely good all-rounders, now it seems like most teams will have batting all-rounders filling the spin quota.
 
Listen out for the post match interview with Lyth! We Yorkshiremen are not very smart but Lyth is really thick hahaha.
 
New Zealand paying for their over-aggressiveness again. Sorry but 41 of 28 in Test match context is a rubbish innings for a number 5 when you are only starting to recover from a very poor start, that too as captain.

You will always struggle in a Test match if you play 72 overs only in your first innings, even if you score 350 which is not a bad total by any means, but by batting for such a short time period, you allow the other team ample time.

Unless they collapse in spectacular fashion from here on, England are well ahead in this game and the only too possible outcomes are either an England win or a draw. England are too seasoned in Test cricket to allow New Zealand back in the game after domination for 4 days, like New Zealand did at Lord's.

England have schooled New Zealand this series in how proper Test cricket is played, and the assessment that McCullum is a poor Test captain definitely has merit.
 
Mamoon said:
New Zealand paying for their over-aggressiveness again. Sorry but 41 of 28 in Test match context is a rubbish innings for a number 5 when you are only starting to recover from a very poor start, that too as captain.

You will always struggle in a Test match if you play 72 overs only in your first innings, even if you score 350 which is not a bad total by any means, but by batting for such a short time period, you allow the other team ample time.

Unless they collapse in spectacular fashion from here on, England are well ahead in this game and the only too possible outcomes are either an England win or a draw. England are too seasoned in Test cricket to allow New Zealand back in the game after domination for 4 days, like New Zealand did at Lord's.

England have schooled New Zealand this series in how proper Test cricket is played, and the assessment that McCullum is a poor Test captain definitely has merit.
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This is a crucial point. New Zealand have allowed England to score at their own pace and still have more than enough time to bowl the Kiwis out.
 
Mamoon said:
New Zealand paying for their over-aggressiveness again. Sorry but 41 of 28 in Test match context is a rubbish innings for a number 5 when you are only starting to recover from a very poor start, that too as captain.

You will always struggle in a Test match if you play 72 overs only in your first innings, even if you score 350 which is not a bad total by any means, but by batting for such a short time period, you allow the other team ample time.

Unless they collapse in spectacular fashion from here on, England are well ahead in this game and the only too possible outcomes are either an England win or a draw. England are too seasoned in Test cricket to allow New Zealand back in the game after domination for 4 days, like New Zealand did at Lord's.

England have schooled New Zealand this series in how proper Test cricket is played, and the assessment that McCullum is a poor Test captain definitely has merit.
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Good point made.
 
Bilal7 said:
This is a crucial point. New Zealand have allowed England to score at their own pace and still have more than enough time to bowl the Kiwis out.
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NZ are the side behind in the series though so they're trying to force a win. If they had batted slower and got the same score how would that have disadvantaged England?
 
talha3 said:
NZ are the side behind in the series though so they're trying to force a win. If they had batted slower and got the same score how would that have disadvantaged England?
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It wouldn't have. Bowlers win you test matches so it doesn't matter how quickly or slowly you bat, you need to bowl the opposition out twice. What it would have done though, is kept New Zealand alive in this test match. As it stands now, they are going to lose this series 2:0, when they could have lost it 1:0.
 
Bilal7 said:
It wouldn't have. Bowlers win you test matches so it doesn't matter how quickly or slowly you bat, you need to bowl the opposition out twice. What it would have done though, is kept New Zealand alive in this test match. As it stands now, they are going to lose this series 2:0, when they could have lost it 1:0.
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I agree it's left them a lot more vulnerable to losing the match but personally I'd rather risk a 1-1 for 2-0 than settle for a 1-0.
 
I do so love a one nill scoreline in a two test match series!

Come on NZ, come and get us! You have to take the initiative! We are in no rush!
 
Yorkshire! Yorkshire! Yorkshire! Yorkshire! Yorkshire! Yorkshire! Yorkshire! Yorkshire! Yorkshire! Yorkshire! Yorkshire!
 
My sources tell me there are street parties in Khyber Pakhtunkhwa which is of course the birth place of the greatest Yorkshireman to play for Pakistan Younis Khan.

They are dancing in the streets with joy at Lyth's 100!

"We Love England and Yorkshire" the people are chanting!
 
England in a strong position to get 500+ here with platform they have, well done to lyth on 1st test 100 hope its the 1st of many.
 
MarkCooper said:
My sources tell me there are street parties in Khyber Pakhtunkhwa which is of course the birth place of the greatest Yorkshireman to play for Pakistan Younis Khan.

They are dancing in the streets with joy at Lyth's 100!

"We Love England and Yorkshire" the people are chanting!
Click to expand...

lol
 
The double-standards are out again.

As long as England are on top this is proof of how stupid Mccullum is (though he obviously needs a result and got a good score).

When NewZealand are on top, it will just be lucky and not sustainable in the long run.

There's no evidence that will convince these guys.
 
Stokes gone, England 5 down ! NZ now in control with a late flurry of wickets. What a Test, England were totally dominating before !

Great new ball spell from NZ, England have scored at a fairly sluggish rate, they may regret not making more hay whilst the sun was shining. This collapse was precipitated by the run out and England now wobbling.
 
We are so generous in England. We gifted them some easy wickets to make things more interesting.
 
Craigs awful bowling on day 4 basically cost us the last test by allowing England a good score to bowl at.

Glad to see hes been able to keep things tight here.
 
Markhor said:
Stokes gone, England 5 down ! NZ now in control with a late flurry of wickets. What a Test, England were totally dominating before !

Great new ball spell from NZ, England have scored at a fairly sluggish rate, they may regret not making more hay whilst the sun was shining. This collapse was precipitated by the run out and England now wobbling.
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They were going no where in the afternoon. Scoring way too slow. When on top one has to score vs the old ball.

Cook can block but the bat on the other end need to show some intent.
 
Let's see if NZ can wrap em up here.

Just hoping McCullum bats sensibly in the second innings for at least 10 overs. A 60-80 from him will completely tilt the game in favour of NZ.
 
Test cricket is so unpredictable. Nobody can truly say which way this match is likely to go
 
Match interestingly poised. Getting tired of reading the debate about tactics, get over it NZ play aggressive cricket, England play defensive cricket. Sad to see the English pitches go the same way as the Aussie pitches, more roads.
 
My favourite day of cricket out of seven so far in this series.

I think that even we England fans know that NZ has the better team, but until today their thoughtless aggression has kept us alive.

Today they played proper Test cricket. They made runs hard to score and then trapped us with the second new ball. Well done to them.

I still hope that Bell, Buttler and Moeen can get us up above 420. If they do, then the pressure is back on NZ.

I'm proud of Lyth and although I hate his captaincy I am truly delighted that Alastair Cook has made a fool of me and proved that he is the greatest opening batsman in the world by miles. Well done!
[MENTION=7774]Robert[/MENTION], what's the minimum score we need to stay in the match?
 
As long as we get 330 or more then we are definitely in the match. We could have a really good new ball spell of our own. Also we are generally quite useful in run chases at home. 400+ would be a godsend today of course!
 
Neferpitou said:
Let's see if NZ can wrap em up here.

Just hoping McCullum bats sensibly in the second innings for at least 10 overs. A 60-80 from him will completely tilt the game in favour of NZ.
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Him batting 'sensibly' for 10 overs won't do anything. Him batting this way for 10 overs IS probably 50 runs.
 
Random Aussie said:
Match interestingly poised. Getting tired of reading the debate about tactics, get over it NZ play aggressive cricket, England play defensive cricket. Sad to see the English pitches go the same way as the Aussie pitches, more roads.
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There are roads everywhere these days. Ironically, Indian and Sri Lankan tracks with their pockmarked nature are the most bowler friendly pitches out there apart from West Indies. Even Zimbabwe have not been too bad.

England, Oz, NZ and even Saffers have come up with total roads. Disappointing.
 
With conditions being overcast and the new ball only 8 overs old, I'd love NZ to take a 30-50 run lead in the 1st innings.

England should have really scored more of Craig.
He was decent but 22-10-38-1 looks warnesque.

But thats what you get when you have 2 ultradefensive English batsmen in Cook and Ballance in your top 3 doing all types of tribal dance before facing the ball only to disdainfully let it go past to the keeper :misbah
 
First session today will be fairly key for the match. NZ will want to knock off the remaining 5 wickets for less than 50 runs to take the drivers seat.
 
CricketAnalyst said:
Him batting 'sensibly' for 10 overs won't do anything. Him batting this way for 10 overs IS probably 50 runs.
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The old McCullum used to be able to score a quick 80 in forty overs. That's what his country needs tomorrow: not 50 from 30 balls in ten overs.

NZ's batsmen need to bat for enough time to set England over 320 to win. And that will be easier the more tired the bowlers get.
 
Junaids said:
The old McCullum used to be able to score a quick 80 in forty overs. That's what his country needs tomorrow: not 50 from 30 balls in ten overs.

NZ's batsmen need to bat for enough time to set England over 320 to win. And that will be easier the more tired the bowlers get.
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NewZealand needs runs. How he does it isn't particularly important at this stage, though it can't be overly slow and provide a chance for a draw. As long as he doesn't play at Cook pace, the number of runs is what matters, not the balls.
 
Random Aussie said:
Match interestingly poised. Getting tired of reading the debate about tactics, get over it NZ play aggressive cricket, England play defensive cricket. Sad to see the English pitches go the same way as the Aussie pitches, more roads.
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Nothing can come close to Australian roads.
 
CricketAnalyst said:
NewZealand needs runs. How he does it isn't particularly important at this stage, though it can't be overly slow and provide a chance for a draw. As long as he doesn't play at Cook pace, the number of runs is what matters, not the balls.
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Good point, but I grew up in the north of England and would like to say a couple of things about the weather!

It's a common trap, even in county cricket, for teams to try to advance the game too fast for fear of bad weather at Headingley and Old Trafford. For forty years I've seen teams get a bit reckless and give their wickets away, only for England / Yorkshire / Lancashire to then have plenty of time to wrap up the match.

Going right back to the 1950s, teams would do this at Headingley under the mistaken impression that it rains as much as it does at Old Trafford. But it doesn't. It's even colder, but not that much time tends to get lost to rain.

Consider these permutations and combinations:

1) England bowled out at lunch on Day 3. Scores level, 8 sessions remain.
2) England bowled out half-way through session 2 on Day 3. England 50 ahead, 7.5 sessions remain.
3) England bowled out at Tea on Day 3. England 100 ahead, 7 sessions remain.

The right mix of aggression and watchfulness for the Kiwis batting third will vary hugely according to these 3 options. But to be honest, none of them scream out for rapid scoring.

Only once in history has a team batting last scored 350 or more at Headingley - and 173 not out of those runs came from Bradman.

The trick is that New Zealand need only around a lead of 320 to be unbeatable in this Test. But if they take unnecessary risks to amass a lead, the lead may well end up smaller and they will lose a game that they should not lose - because England has the added burden of batting last.

The bottom line is that some of the Kiwis will need to bat aggressively at some stages of their innings, but that they are going to need to keep wickets in hand in case it does rain, and they then need to score very quickly indeed.

But the shortcut to a Kiwi defeat is for them to say "it might rain, we're going to bat like it's an ODI or T20". Because then they will leave England an eternity to knock off a paltry total.
 
CricketAnalyst said:
NewZealand needs runs. How he does it isn't particularly important at this stage, though it can't be overly slow and provide a chance for a draw. As long as he doesn't play at Cook pace, the number of runs is what matters, not the balls.
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Cook pace is working well. I'll never forgive him for this, however.Coward Cook.jpg
 
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Random Aussie said:
Match interestingly poised. Getting tired of reading the debate about tactics, get over it NZ play aggressive cricket, England play defensive cricket. Sad to see the English pitches go the same way as the Aussie pitches, more roads.
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Lord's is a road now.

This one at least has a bit of bounce and carry, and the microclimate means that the ball usually swings. Headingley was a minefield once, with seam and variable bounce, but Australia still managed to get 400 on it in 1981 against Willis, Botham and Old.
 
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