Fakhar Zaman, Imam-ul-Haq and Babar Azam - Pakistan's best top 3 in ODI history?

[QalandarFan]

Lot of negatives going around and coming out of this series. However, I want to focus on the positives and that's our batting and in particular our top 3. Honestly can not remember the last time we have had such a solid top 3 in ODI's. I mean when is the last time a Pakistan top 3 had numbers like these?

Fakhar Zaman
Ave - 53
SR - 98
50's - 10
100's - 4

Imam Ul Haq
Ave - 60
SR - 82
50's - 5
100's - 6

Babar Azam
Ave - 51
SR - 86
50's - 11
100's - 9

I mean you can call Fakhar inconsistent, Imam slow, and Babar selfish. But the truth is 5 years ago we would die to have even 1 batsman who averages 50 with a strike rate of 80+. Right now our whole top 3 averages over 50 @80+. The mean numbers for our top 3 at the moment is an average of 55 at a strike rate of 89. Even when it comes to hundreds Babar already has the 5th most hundreds in the format for us, Imam has a crazy 6 tons in no time. Fakhar has only 4 but he has a double ton, and when you play the way he does the conversion rates from the 50's to a 100's is a bit lower. All three of them have also stepped up and performed in this series with hundreds!

The question is have Pakistan ever had a better top 3 in their ODI history? And where does our top 3 rank in the world compared to other teams?

 

[QalandarFan]

Also compare this to our top 3 from say 2015

Ahmed Shehzad: Ave - 35 SR - 72

Nasir Jamshed: Ave - 31 SR - 75

Mohammad Hafeez: Ave - 31 SR - 73

Just a torrid top 3 to watch and you always knew a wicket was around the corner with these guys batting. I don't know what is wrong with Hafeez if I was him I would of begged to stay between #4-6 my whole career his numbers would look much better. He's a completely different batsman when opening he's garbage, but he's pretty handy down the order. Wasted his career in my opinion.

 

[MMHS]

To be honest, statistically it's the greatest top 3 in history.

The other PAST top 3s that I can recall were (writing from memory, may be missing few figures, don't have the appetite to click CI)-

Grineedge 45/63
Haynes 42/63
Viv 47/91

Mazid 45/75
Sadiq 20+/50+
Zaheer 48/85

SRT 45/85+
VS 35/100+
SG 40+/80+

Gilchrist 36/90+
Mark ~40/~85
Ponting 40+/80+

Hayden ~45/~80
Watson 40+/90+
Clarke ~45/~80

When BC used to open
Lara ~40/~80
Haynes 42/63
Richardson 33/63

Mahela 30+/~80
Dilshan ~40/85+
Sanga ~45/~80

Smith ~40/~80
Gibbs 36+/80+
Kallis ~45/~75
.
.
.

Compared to that, indeed PAK's top 3 is indifferent class - combined stats like 55+/90+

Now, comes the second part, contemporary cricket - I'm listing perceived top 3 of this WC teams alphabetically (SRL & AFG excluded, I don't know actually who is batting where for them)

AUS: Finch, Warner, Smith/Khwaja
BD: Tamim, Soumya, Shakib
ENG: Roy, Johnny, Root
IND: Sharma, Dhawan, Kohli
NZ: Martin, Munro/Latham, Williamson
PAK: Imam, Fakhar, Babar
SAF: Amla, Kock, Markram/Faf
WIN: Gayle, Lewis, Hope

Be honest with your self and rank the top 3 from 1 to 8, on your guts - it's not about stats, rather which 3 you would love to have as your top 1-2-3.

Let me put mine first:
1. Poms
2. IND
3. AUS
4. NZ
5. SAF
6. BD
7. WIN
8. PAK

From the order (of mine), it's clearly evident that your perceived position/ranking of ODI status is highly co-related with your top 3 - more or less 90% certain that top 3 in my list will make SF and probably 99% certain that 4 Semi Finalists will come from top 5. That actually tells the importance of having impact top 3 in modern gung ho style ODI cricket, rather than stats.

 

[QalandarFan]

To be honest, statistically it's the greatest top 3 in history.

The other PAST top 3s that I can recall were (writing from memory, may be missing few figures, don't have the appetite to click CI)-

Grineedge 45/63
Haynes 42/63
Viv 47/91

Mazid 45/75
Sadiq 20+/50+
Zaheer 48/85

SRT 45/85+
VS 35/100+
SG 40+/80+

Gilchrist 36/90+
Mark ~40/~85
Ponting 40+/80+

Hayden ~45/~80
Watson 40+/90+
Clarke ~45/~80

When BC used to open
Lara ~40/~80
Haynes 42/63
Richardson 33/63

Mahela 30+/~80
Dilshan ~40/85+
Sanga ~45/~80

Smith ~40/~80
Gibbs 36+/80+
Kallis ~45/~75
.
.
.

Compared to that, indeed PAK's top 3 is indifferent class - combined stats like 55+/90+

Now, comes the second part, contemporary cricket - I'm listing perceived top 3 of this WC teams alphabetically (SRL & AFG excluded, I don't know actually who is batting where for them)

AUS: Finch, Warner, Smith/Khwaja
BD: Tamim, Soumya, Shakib
ENG: Roy, Johnny, Root
IND: Sharma, Dhawan, Kohli
NZ: Martin, Munro/Latham, Williamson
PAK: Imam, Fakhar, Babar
SAF: Amla, Kock, Markram/Faf
WIN: Gayle, Lewis, Hope

Be honest with your self and rank the top 3 from 1 to 8, on your guts - it's not about stats, rather which 3 you would love to have as your top 1-2-3.

Let me put mine first:
1. Poms
2. IND
3. AUS
4. NZ
5. SAF
6. BD
7. WIN
8. PAK

From the order (of mine), it's clearly evident that your perceived position/ranking of ODI status is highly co-related with your top 3 - more or less 90% certain that top 3 in my list will make SF and probably 99% certain that 4 Semi Finalists will come from top 5. That actually tells the importance of having impact top 3 in modern gung ho style ODI cricket, rather than stats.

Once again I am talking about in Pakistan's history we have never had a better top 3. Obviously those guys you've mentioned like the Aussie top 3 or the Windies and Indian top 3 are better even if stats do not show that because they played in a much different era hence the numbers are lower. Obviously I will take most if not all those historical great top 3's over this bunch, however the exciting part is these guys are still young in their career and Babar is the most experienced with 60 odd matches and they have so much potential and a ceiling much higher than a lot of teams. As a Pakistan fan it is great finally seeing a top 3 that doesn't have mediocre numbers.

Unfortunately I disagree with your rankings of the top 3 as I feel our top 3 is highly under rated. I would rank current top 3's as follows

1. India
2. England
3. Australia
4. Pakistan
5. South Africa
6. New Zealand
7. West Indies
8. Bangladesh

The best 3 is pretty obvious, I put India ahead of England as they are more consistent and not to mention they have the greatest player of this era in their top 3 so they've still got the most powerful top 3 in my opinion. I put Pakistan ahead of NZ who are pretty over rated in my opinion. Apart from Williamson it's a meh top 3. Guptill seems to look pretty ordinary these days and Munro has never been good in One Days. South Africa's top 3 is pretty close to Pakistan's I'd say. However, having an aging Amla who is well past it, puts Pakistan ahead of them for me. Nextly, West Indies seem to have a good top 3 but in my opinion it is too hit and miss. Bangladesh in my opinion is the top 3 that is the worst in a very strong group of top 3's. Even though they are last on my list they are not that bad. In fact the margin between teams 4-8 is not that big in my opinion.

 

[Zeshan547]

[MENTION=79064]MMHS[/MENTION] may be its one of those rare occasions where I don't agree with you, I would consider only Indian and Aussie top 3 with Smith at 3 better than Pak top 3, specially in future, and they are all most likely will play 2023 wc in India, and then they may be even the best top 3 in world, only thing they are lacking is strike rate, but when you play most of your cricket in UAE this is bound to happen, but in near future with cricket coming back home, This aspect will also improve, and with a little more selflessness, you will see the impact also not just stats.

 

[MMHS]

[MENTION=79064]MMHS[/MENTION] may be its one of those rare occasions where I don't agree with you, I would consider only Indian and Aussie top 3 with Smith at 3 better than Pak top 3, specially in future, and they are all most likely will play 2023 wc in India, and then they may be even the best top 3 in world, only thing they are lacking is strike rate, but when you play most of your cricket in UAE this is bound to happen, but in near future with cricket coming back home, This aspect will also improve, and with a little more selflessness, you will see the impact also not just stats.

But bro, I have seen other top 3 in UAE as well - playing 5-10-15 years or even first time in life in UAE.

Stats are relative - take out ZIM bashing, PAK's top 3 won't look that great; take out WIN, it'll look ordinary, take out soft runs in loosing cause - it's minnow-isque.

May be in future it'll improve, hope so, but as of today - it has failed to chase 2 relatively easy targets in UAE against BD & AFG (won by Malik), it was absolutely shambolic in NZ (remember 16/6 after 15 overs in a series saver), bang average in SAF (made numbers again from that soft chase of 170, when Shiwari won that game by 45th over), was hope less against NZ in UAE when asking was a bit tough (again made numbers in 2nd game where Shadab gave the game on plate), was pathetic against Aussies in UAE (though stats were great) and finally making numbers against Poms's compromised attack on absolute roads, which is being hunted by Pom batsmen with some ease.

It's like Golf - you can't judge by the absolute score, because degree of difficulty is set by the per for the course - a 2 under per 70 at Augusta might be 10 under per 62 in many other courses, even PGA courses. ODI has moved to 350 era, particularly in UK, so obviously stats will be misleading; but my scale is determined by

1. 16/6 in NZ, in series saver
2. 18/3 in UAE in eliminator
3. 64/2 in SAF in series decider

I myself wasn't sure between Poms & IND, but oblate IND seems to be too dependent on Kohli, which is not the case for ENG - whoever bats in top 3 for them seems to bat with steroids

 

[MMHS]

Regarding BD top 3, I wasn't sure till yesterday, but today they chased 211 in 23 overs and the blast came from top 2 (3rd one wasn't playing) .... Mosaddek finished the game in style, but against 3 WIN regular bowlers, it was like 58-0 after 5 (Roach went for 2-0-30-0) - games are won like that, not by larke lenge style with someone coming at 6-7 and some days connect some wild swings. I can bet my house on this - put PAK top 3 in identical situation, it would have been 50-3 after 7 overs.

 

[Mean&Green]

All this is cool and amazing to look at but if they can’t get you results it’s meaningless just like kohli can score 10 centuries in this World Cup and if India lose the World Cup no one will even care that he scored 10 centuries

 

[Afhan Ali]

To be honest, statistically it's the greatest top 3 in history.

The other PAST top 3s that I can recall were (writing from memory, may be missing few figures, don't have the appetite to click CI)-

Grineedge 45/63
Haynes 42/63
Viv 47/91

Mazid 45/75
Sadiq 20+/50+
Zaheer 48/85

SRT 45/85+
VS 35/100+
SG 40+/80+

Gilchrist 36/90+
Mark ~40/~85
Ponting 40+/80+

Hayden ~45/~80
Watson 40+/90+
Clarke ~45/~80

When BC used to open
Lara ~40/~80
Haynes 42/63
Richardson 33/63

Mahela 30+/~80
Dilshan ~40/85+
Sanga ~45/~80

Smith ~40/~80
Gibbs 36+/80+
Kallis ~45/~75
.
.
.

Compared to that, indeed PAK's top 3 is indifferent class - combined stats like 55+/90+

Now, comes the second part, contemporary cricket - I'm listing perceived top 3 of this WC teams alphabetically (SRL & AFG excluded, I don't know actually who is batting where for them)

AUS: Finch, Warner, Smith/Khwaja
BD: Tamim, Soumya, Shakib
ENG: Roy, Johnny, Root
IND: Sharma, Dhawan, Kohli
NZ: Martin, Munro/Latham, Williamson
PAK: Imam, Fakhar, Babar
SAF: Amla, Kock, Markram/Faf
WIN: Gayle, Lewis, Hope

Be honest with your self and rank the top 3 from 1 to 8, on your guts - it's not about stats, rather which 3 you would love to have as your top 1-2-3.

Let me put mine first:
1. Poms
2. IND
3. AUS
4. NZ
5. SAF
6. BD
7. WIN
8. PAK

From the order (of mine), it's clearly evident that your perceived position/ranking of ODI status is highly co-related with your top 3 - more or less 90% certain that top 3 in my list will make SF and probably 99% certain that 4 Semi Finalists will come from top 5. That actually tells the importance of having impact top 3 in modern gung ho style ODI cricket, rather than stats.

Sir he is talking about over greatest top 3 not world

 

[Afhan Ali]

All this is cool and amazing to look at but if they can’t get you results it’s meaningless just like kohli can score 10 centuries in this World Cup and if India lose the World Cup no one will even care that he scored 10 centuries

Yes winning is important but we lose because of poor bowling and fielding or late order finish

 

[MMHS]

Sir he is talking about over greatest top 3 not world

I know - the comparison was to show how good they are statistically against historical bests. There is one PAK list as well and I didn’t put another one because the 3rd of that list moved down the order - for couple of years PAK’s top 3 were Saeed, Sohail, Inzi!!!

No, I don’t think it’s the best of PAK, not even close. For few years Butt, Kamran and Malik/YK/ARazzak batted at top 3 - they’ll give a good contest to this trio.

 

[BreadPakoda]

Solid batsmen. Particularly impressed with reliability of Babar and Imam.

 

[JibranAnsari]

I would say greatest top 4.

Haris averaging 47 and SR 83.

He is low on centuries though.

 

[saeed5646]

The most impressive part from yesterday match was how fakhar and babar weather the storm against 90mph+ bowling from wood and archer . they will smash minnow like bd,wi,sl and wi but will need 2 more solid foundation out of top 5 to make it easier for semifinals .

 

[saeed5646]

Regarding BD top 3, I wasn't sure till yesterday, but today they chased 211 in 23 overs and the blast came from top 2 (3rd one wasn't playing) .... Mosaddek finished the game in style, but against 3 WIN regular bowlers, it was like 58-0 after 5 (Roach went for 2-0-30-0) - games are won like that, not by larke lenge style with someone coming at 6-7 and some days connect some wild swings. I can bet my house on this - put PAK top 3 in identical situation, it would have been 50-3 after 7 overs.

The thread is about pakistan top 3 not bd so i don't know where you logic come from .if you are trying too hard of your team get notice in pp than create a separate thread and hyped them there .

 

[hur rizvi]

I would say greatest top 4.

Haris averaging 47 and SR 83.

He is low on centuries though.

I hope he plays though. I fear he is going to be benched for Malik

On topic our top 4 if Haris is included are one of the best at least in recent Pakistan's history (2000 onwards at least)

The big and only issue with our batting is lack of Power in late middle order

 

[Mamoon]

An argument can certainly be made that it is the best top three we have ever had.

If we compare it to Saeed Anwar, Aamer Sohail and Ijaz Ahmed, they win man to man except for Saeed Anwar who was far better than Fakhar.

 

[Hawkeye]

Seems like one of the most reliable we've had in quite a while, indeed!

Just lacks a bit of impact though. This top 4 doesn't put fear in any opposition, only Fakhar and to some extent Babar does because they can score fast.

In LOIs, scoring fast is of utmost importance now.

Imam doesn't have the scoring shots so he brings down the momentum a lot, majority of the times.


Still, if they all click, we still lose because we don't have anyone in the late order to finish matches and hit the bowlers around towards the death.


Asif alone is unreliable, Imad Wasim, Malik & Sarfraz cannot hit to save their lives.

 

[hur rizvi]

Seems like one of the most reliable we've had in quite a while, indeed!

Just lacks a bit of impact though. This top 4 doesn't put fear in any opposition, only Fakhar and to some extent Babar does because they can score fast.

In LOIs, scoring fast is of utmost importance now.

Imam doesn't have the scoring shots so he brings down the momentum a lot, majority of the times.


Still, if they all click, we still lose because we don't have anyone in the late order to finish matches and hit the bowlers around towards the death.


Asif alone is unreliable, Imad Wasim, Malik & Sarfraz cannot hit to save their lives.

Precisely the issue.

 

[hur rizvi]

I know - the comparison was to show how good they are statistically against historical bests. There is one PAK list as well and I didn’t put another one because the 3rd of that list moved down the order - for couple of years PAK’s top 3 were Saeed, Sohail, Inzi!!!

No, I don’t think it’s the best of PAK, not even close. For few years Butt, Kamran and Malik/YK/ARazzak batted at top 3 - they’ll give a good contest to this trio.

YK was never an ODI batsman, Kami was always inconsistent. Butt was good but he was inconsistent too.

Saeed, Sohail and Inzi could be a good contest with this but most of his career Inzi never batted at 3. If my memory serves right our no. 3 for most of the 90s was Ijaz

 

[saeed5646]

This is interesting stat for pakistan top 3

 

[QalandarFan]

This is interesting stat for pakistan top 3

View attachment 91415

Really they've only had that one poor tour of NZ, where Fakhar is the only one who managed to click, but tbf Imam only played 1 match on that tour so the stats of these guys starting after that tour are what would count I'd say.

 

[Square Drive]

Yes.

Things looking very good for us.

We will peak at the right time.

 

[mesmerizer85]

Interesting thread..

Bulk of the scoring is happening due to our Top 4-5 batsmen..The lower part of the order is letting us down tbh. If we can consistently now put up 340-350+ scores but not defend them , its time to work on the bowling/fielding big time if we stand a chance of reaching Semi Finals of the WC, and then winning from there the Cup inshaAllah..

I

 

[saeed5646]

Really they've only had that one poor tour of NZ, where Fakhar is the only one who managed to click, but tbf Imam only played 1 match on that tour so the stats of these guys starting after that tour are what would count I'd say.

LAST 2 years

 

[Mobashir]

To be honest, statistically it's the greatest top 3 in history.

The other PAST top 3s that I can recall were (writing from memory, may be missing few figures, don't have the appetite to click CI)-

Grineedge 45/63
Haynes 42/63
Viv 47/91

Mazid 45/75
Sadiq 20+/50+
Zaheer 48/85

SRT 45/85+
VS 35/100+
SG 40+/80+

Gilchrist 36/90+
Mark ~40/~85
Ponting 40+/80+

Hayden ~45/~80
Watson 40+/90+
Clarke ~45/~80

When BC used to open
Lara ~40/~80
Haynes 42/63
Richardson 33/63

Mahela 30+/~80
Dilshan ~40/85+
Sanga ~45/~80

Smith ~40/~80
Gibbs 36+/80+
Kallis ~45/~75
.
.
.

Compared to that, indeed PAK's top 3 is indifferent class - combined stats like 55+/90+

Now, comes the second part, contemporary cricket - I'm listing perceived top 3 of this WC teams alphabetically (SRL & AFG excluded, I don't know actually who is batting where for them)

AUS: Finch, Warner, Smith/Khwaja
BD: Tamim, Soumya, Shakib
ENG: Roy, Johnny, Root
IND: Sharma, Dhawan, Kohli
NZ: Martin, Munro/Latham, Williamson
PAK: Imam, Fakhar, Babar
SAF: Amla, Kock, Markram/Faf
WIN: Gayle, Lewis, Hope

Be honest with your self and rank the top 3 from 1 to 8, on your guts - it's not about stats, rather which 3 you would love to have as your top 1-2-3.

Let me put mine first:
1. Poms
2. IND
3. AUS
4. NZ
5. SAF
6. BD
7. WIN
8. PAK

From the order (of mine), it's clearly evident that your perceived position/ranking of ODI status is highly co-related with your top 3 - more or less 90% certain that top 3 in my list will make SF and probably 99% certain that 4 Semi Finalists will come from top 5. That actually tells the importance of having impact top 3 in modern gung ho style ODI cricket, rather than stats.

Some good points made here but how has Bangladesh been ranked in front on Pakistan still?

Over the last 4 years stat of top 3 from Pak and Bangladesh against SENAI :
Pakistan : Fakhar 45/94 - Imam 45/77 - Babar 38/82
Bangladesh : Tamim Iqbal 35/73 - Soumya Sarkar - 30/98 - Liton Das 20/85.
WI : Gayle 62/126 (just 10 matches) - Lewis 36/90 - Hope : 37/76
NZ : Guptill 39/90 - Munro 19/90 - Williamson : 44/ 83

There are not only stats that we should look at but still Bangladesh are way behind.

 

[MMHS]

YK was never an ODI batsman, Kami was always inconsistent. Butt was good but he was inconsistent too.

Saeed, Sohail and Inzi could be a good contest with this but most of his career Inzi never batted at 3. If my memory serves right our no. 3 for most of the 90s was Ijaz

I know YK’s record as ODI batsman- that’s why I mentioned this particularly (as comparable, hence you should understand that I don’t have much respect in current trio). His overall record is poor, but in that small period of 2-3 years, he was brilliant at 3. If I can recall correctly, he had probably 3 or 4 hundreds in that time, which was remarkable for that era and at least 2 of those hundreds I can recall were in tough chase - at Mohali & in UK.

Kami scored a brilliant 132? Against a very good WIN attack at Brisbane chasing 260+, which was quite an achievement in 2005. He also had couple of hundreds against Poms in 2005 period. The 3rd one of that trio is Butt, not the best one but still he was quite good while chasing, particularly against IND. in that period Malik averaged like 38/80+ at 3, which was brilliant and for few games MoYo batted at 3, and I can recall one magnificent 100 at WACA against WIN, a game which PAK won.

As I said, from where my initial post came - in stats, this trio is not only PAK’s best, rather untouchable in history of the game. But, ODI is won by the batting of top 3 in this era and compared to their stats, PAK’s record in terms of W/L is extremely poor - they can’t avoid that blame. They can definitely improve as both Babar & Imam is entering to their peak years, but as of now, no.

The 2nd comparison is how they are perceived in contemporary cricket - ODI context has changed so much in decade by decade that it's unfair to compare by direct stats. To my understanding, Mazid-Sadiq-Z trio was rated as the 2nd best top 3 of 1970s, only after Grineedge-Haynes/Fredricks-Viv while for that brief period Saeed-Sohail-Inzi were arguably best top 3 in world. Where does current top 3 stands in contemporary cricket beyond stats?

I am really surprised that someone thought I am trying to highlight BD here at the expense of PAK team/cricket, but think of yourself - why the W/L looks like this; because out of your emotion, you (most PAK fans) try to find own logic of self serving prophecy (of how good your players individually are), but reality is totally different. You can blame everyone & everything else around for that W/L, but at the end, your team has a 3-21 record where it matters and during this period, these top 3 played most games unconditionally.

 

[Khan12]

But bro, I have seen other top 3 in UAE as well - playing 5-10-15 years or even first time in life in UAE.

Stats are relative - take out ZIM bashing, PAK's top 3 won't look that great; take out WIN, it'll look ordinary, take out soft runs in loosing cause - it's minnow-isque.

May be in future it'll improve, hope so, but as of today - it has failed to chase 2 relatively easy targets in UAE against BD & AFG (won by Malik), it was absolutely shambolic in NZ (remember 16/6 after 15 overs in a series saver), bang average in SAF (made numbers again from that soft chase of 170, when Shiwari won that game by 45th over), was hope less against NZ in UAE when asking was a bit tough (again made numbers in 2nd game where Shadab gave the game on plate), was pathetic against Aussies in UAE (though stats were great) and finally making numbers against Poms's compromised attack on absolute roads, which is being hunted by Pom batsmen with some ease.

It's like Golf - you can't judge by the absolute score, because degree of difficulty is set by the per for the course - a 2 under per 70 at Augusta might be 10 under per 62 in many other courses, even PGA courses. ODI has moved to 350 era, particularly in UK, so obviously stats will be misleading; but my scale is determined by

1. 16/6 in NZ, in series saver
2. 18/3 in UAE in eliminator
3. 64/2 in SAF in series decider

I myself wasn't sure between Poms & IND, but oblate IND seems to be too dependent on Kohli, which is not the case for ENG - whoever bats in top 3 for them seems to bat with steroids

They are not as bad as what people think of them.

 

[MMHS]

Some good points made here but how has Bangladesh been ranked in front on Pakistan still?

Over the last 4 years stat of top 3 from Pak and Bangladesh against SENAI :
Pakistan : Fakhar 45/94 - Imam 45/77 - Babar 38/82
Bangladesh : Tamim Iqbal 35/73 - Soumya Sarkar - 30/98 - Liton Das 20/85.
WI : Gayle 62/126 (just 10 matches) - Lewis 36/90 - Hope : 37/76
NZ : Guptill 39/90 - Munro 19/90 - Williamson : 44/ 83

There are not only stats that we should look at but still Bangladesh are way behind.

Bro, by stats not only BD, your top 3 is historically best - this is the 2nd thread in this line and I wrote exactly that in last thread as well.

But, there are few other explanations given in my other posts - gather a summery of those, it should give you the answer. If still not convince, you are welcome to ignore my post or ranks.

Remember, I was the first person to praise that 361 effort in 2nd game - but still reality is two of your top 3 left the game exactly when at least one of them should have stuck around to complete what should have been an easier task as the toughest part was already done - stats doesn’t win you games and numbers are mere reflection of the batting condition. Play 10 games for n UK, your top 3 will further improve their already stunning stats.

PAK is running 0-9 in last 3 months and I think there has been 6/7 hundreds in that period, mostly by top 3 - it’s just stats. And, unlike BD batsmen, you can’t blame your bowlers either - in their little capacity BD top 3 is trying to cover up their bowling weakness, your top 3 is cashing on the bowlers good work - all these 3 wins were achieved chasing and each time bowlers actually handed the game by lunch. The day, they hang the game by the scarf & win it - I’ll be the first one to praise here, don’t worry and I can differentiate what is stats and what is impact.

 

[MMHS]

Fakhar, Babar and Imam didn't play against AUS.

I know, that’s why I used most games in some other post - though I am sure Imam played couple of games.

 

[jeeteshssaxena]

Some good points made here but how has Bangladesh been ranked in front on Pakistan still?

Over the last 4 years stat of top 3 from Pak and Bangladesh against SENAI :
Pakistan : Fakhar 45/94 - Imam 45/77 - Babar 38/82
Bangladesh : Tamim Iqbal 35/73 - Soumya Sarkar - 30/98 - Liton Das 20/85.
WI : Gayle 62/126 (just 10 matches) - Lewis 36/90 - Hope : 37/76
NZ : Guptill 39/90 - Munro 19/90 - Williamson : 44/ 83

There are not only stats that we should look at but still Bangladesh are way behind.

Pakistan's top 3 is better but Tamim is a much better batsman than what his stats suggest.
Tamim's stats post 2015 are as good as anyone.

 

[MMHS]

Pakistan's top 3 is better but Tamim is a much better batsman than what his stats suggest.
Tamim's stats post 2015 are as good as anyone.

Our top 3 now actually are Tanim, Soumya & Shakib.

 

[Angrez Pakistani]

I don't see a scenario where any of them can score 11-15 runs an over in the last 8-10 overs. They'll ultimately throw their wickets and leave the rest to clean up their mess.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

I wonder which team won't have a fantastic top 3 on pitches like this?

 

[Titan24]

I believe its not only Pakistan a lot of teams are experiencing much better numbers for top three than a decade ago thanks to ICC for making it so batsmen friendly. Some of the top 3 started their career much earlier then this heavenly era of batsmen and thus career averages might not be completely reflective but last 5 year averages will tell the picture. However, earlier we weren’t competing with the batting of other countries, atleast now we are doing that in terms of consistency though pacing the innings is still a problem.

Statistically they are but other than Fakhar Zaman both Babar and Imam don take into account the team requirements and conditions and they go out there and play almost the same way on every surface. I am not sure if its the job given to them but even if it is then it should slightly altered for different surfaces especially when at the moment they dont have the ability to accelerate after playing even 100 balls.

Though they are just 23 and 24 and will learn will time but again its a failure of team management as their learning shouldnt be at the expense of the team winning or loosing so they should be given better game plans.

As mentioned in other thread we have scored 9 centuries in this year only, 1 from Fakhar, 1 from Babar, 2 from Rizwan, 2 from Haris, 2 from Imam and 1 for Abid. Everyone of them have been in losing cause. There must be a reason for that, what I can think of is that while others are making sure they make full use of the surface by generating and carrying a momentum irrespective of whether they are playing on 10 or 90 while some of our batsmen make sure that they get that century as its a flat surface so its there for taking.

Again I understand Babar and Imam are still young and that is why team management is there to guide them.

 

[saeed5646]

Pakistan's top 3 is better but Tamim is a much better batsman than what his stats suggest.
Tamim's stats post 2015 are as good as anyone.

lol what is so special about it .Surely you won,t want me to include minnow bashing.if you go by by above pattern i used only top 5 team .here i have used pakistan team which boast his average so no body can complain
his average against top 5 side since 2015 36

 

[cricketerB94]

Stats are relative - take out ZIM bashing, PAK's top 3 won't look that great; take out WIN, it'll look ordinary, take out soft runs in loosing cause - it's minnow-isque.

Regarding BD top 3, I wasn't sure till yesterday, but today they chased 211 in 23 overs and the blast came from top 2 (3rd one wasn't playing) .... Mosaddek finished the game in style, but against 3 WIN regular bowlers, it was like 58-0 after 5 (Roach went for 2-0-30-0) - games are won like that, not by larke lenge style with someone coming at 6-7 and some days connect some wild swings. I can bet my house on this - put PAK top 3 in identical situation, it would have been 50-3 after 7 overs.

Man! For Pakistan, you say that take out ZIM bashing, PAK's top 3 won't look that great; take out WIN, it'll look ordinary, take out soft runs in loosing cause.

And for Bangladesh, you got sure about your team after beating a second string WIN team.

If we compare the stats of both teams, Pak's top 3 stats are still better than Ban's top 3. And impact wise, both teams are not able to win against top 5 teams nowadays.

 

[BDfanforever]

... And where does our top 3 rank in the world compared to other teams?[/B]

Filtering out ZIM. The main problem is that their SR especially that of Babar and Imam is way to slow for modern ODI Cricket which should explain even having such high average why Pakistan is still losing matches left, right, and center.

So, in summary they may actually hurt your team as they are hogging up lot of deliveries which a good lower order batsman like Asif Ali should put away for boundaries.

 

[shaz72]

Lot of negatives going around and coming out of this series. However, I want to focus on the positives and that's our batting and in particular our top 3. Honestly can not remember the last time we have had such a solid top 3 in ODI's. I mean when is the last time a Pakistan top 3 had numbers like these?

Fakhar Zaman
Ave - 53
SR - 98
50's - 10
100's - 4

Imam Ul Haq
Ave - 60
SR - 82
50's - 5
100's - 6

Babar Azam
Ave - 51
SR - 86
50's - 11
100's - 9

I mean you can call Fakhar inconsistent, Imam slow, and Babar selfish. But the truth is 5 years ago we would die to have even 1 batsman who averages 50 with a strike rate of 80+. Right now our whole top 3 averages over 50 @80+. The mean numbers for our top 3 at the moment is an average of 55 at a strike rate of 89. Even when it comes to hundreds Babar already has the 5th most hundreds in the format for us, Imam has a crazy 6 tons in no time. Fakhar has only 4 but he has a double ton, and when you play the way he does the conversion rates from the 50's to a 100's is a bit lower. All three of them have also stepped up and performed in this series with hundreds!

The question is have Pakistan ever had a better top 3 in their ODI history? And where does our top 3 rank in the world compared to other teams?

I appreciate your work, But i would say the sample size is too low for them at this point in time. Wait till they complete atleast 50 ODI or if someone can provide statistics of Ind, Eng & Aus top 3 at same stage and compare with our lot than we would say ok we are in good position.

 

[jonny darko]

There is a golden rule which every successful team follows like a sacred guideline - Never fix something which ain't broken.

Imam, Fakhar, Babar - these top 3 should always stick together regardless of the format, opponent or conditions.

Yes, Babar may open with Fakhar in T20s & Babar may come in at no. 4 in tests. Imam might sit out for T20s. But generally:

In ODIs:

Imam
Fakhar
Babar
Haris
Abid/Asif
Rizwan

For Tests:

Imam
Fakhar
Azhar
Babar
Haris
Shafiq
Sarfaraz

Every successful dynasty & empire has one common feature - stability at the top.

By the way, the Anwar, Afridi/Nazir, Ijaz combination were more destructive. Their devastation of the opposition bowling(specially Indian) is stuff of folklore.

 

[The Viper]

A huge improvement from the days of Jamshed, Kami etc. The strike rates are not as great as an England but they are consistent and score big.

 

[coy0607]

To be honest, statistically it's the greatest top 3 in history.

The other PAST top 3s that I can recall were (writing from memory, may be missing few figures, don't have the appetite to click CI)-

Grineedge 45/63
Haynes 42/63
Viv 47/91

Mazid 45/75
Sadiq 20+/50+
Zaheer 48/85

SRT 45/85+
VS 35/100+
SG 40+/80+

Gilchrist 36/90+
Mark ~40/~85
Ponting 40+/80+

Hayden ~45/~80
Watson 40+/90+
Clarke ~45/~80

When BC used to open
Lara ~40/~80
Haynes 42/63
Richardson 33/63

Mahela 30+/~80
Dilshan ~40/85+
Sanga ~45/~80

Smith ~40/~80
Gibbs 36+/80+
Kallis ~45/~75
.
.
.

Compared to that, indeed PAK's top 3 is indifferent class - combined stats like 55+/90+

Now, comes the second part, contemporary cricket - I'm listing perceived top 3 of this WC teams alphabetically (SRL & AFG excluded, I don't know actually who is batting where for them)

AUS: Finch, Warner, Smith/Khwaja
BD: Tamim, Soumya, Shakib
ENG: Roy, Johnny, Root
IND: Sharma, Dhawan, Kohli
NZ: Martin, Munro/Latham, Williamson
PAK: Imam, Fakhar, Babar
SAF: Amla, Kock, Markram/Faf
WIN: Gayle, Lewis, Hope

Be honest with your self and rank the top 3 from 1 to 8, on your guts - it's not about stats, rather which 3 you would love to have as your top 1-2-3.

Let me put mine first:
1. Poms
2. IND
3. AUS
4. NZ
5. SAF
6. BD
7. WIN
8. PAK

From the order (of mine), it's clearly evident that your perceived position/ranking of ODI status is highly co-related with your top 3 - more or less 90% certain that top 3 in my list will make SF and probably 99% certain that 4 Semi Finalists will come from top 5. That actually tells the importance of having impact top 3 in modern gung ho style ODI cricket, rather than stats.

off topic but its incredible how far ahead of their times Zaheer and Viv - amazing numbers for batsmen who played in the 70s and 80s

 

[hadi123]

It's a very solid and settled top order. Imagine if we still had Sharjeel Khan.Oooof

 

[Ronaldo7]

It's a very solid and settled top order. Imagine if we still had Sharjeel Khan.Oooof

On these pitches...
What a top 3.
Fakhar
Sharjeel
Babar

 

[QalandarFan]

It's a very solid and settled top order. Imagine if we still had Sharjeel Khan.Oooof

Guy messed his career up the way he was playing on those flat pitches on Australia, and those grounds were bigger than these English Grounds, just shows how crucial he could of been.

 

[W63L35]

Another way to look at Pakistani ODI batsmen at postions 1-3 since 2000...

 

[TeymurBlake]

Its settled, its scoring and its currently consistent with each of them having scored a substantial score in England so far. Its pretty good and could be our best ever.

 

[Mirpur express]

These numbers look good on paper & they probably are the heaviest scoring Pakistani top3 in recent memory but of the 19 tons between I can only remember 1 in a wining cause , Fakhar in CT17 , can you also highlight how many times they were on the wining side ?

 

[ali2220]

These numbers look good on paper & they probably are the heaviest scoring Pakistani top3 in recent memory but of the 19 tons between I can only remember 1 in a wining cause , Fakhar in CT17 , can you also highlight how many times they were on the wining side ?

Unfortunately the result of match doesn't depend of performances of top three only, if the bowling,captaincy and fielding are poor than the side will usually end up loosing.

 

[QalandarFan]

Another way to look at Pakistani ODI batsmen at postions 1-3 since 2000...

View attachment 91447

Yet some people will find a way to say "stats aren't everything" and that we should drop these guys. Tell me how a player who averages 35 @ 75 can be considered better than any of our top 3 players right now smh.

 

[QalandarFan]

These numbers look good on paper & they probably are the heaviest scoring Pakistani top3 in recent memory but of the 19 tons between I can only remember 1 in a wining cause , Fakhar in CT17 , can you also highlight how many times they were on the wining side ?

As [MENTION=47105]ali2220[/MENTION] stated a team is made up of 11 players not 3. What can the top 3 do if the middle order can not propel the team to big finishes, or if the bowlers aren't picking up wickets, or if the fielders are not taking simple catches? We need to realize our top 3 is as strong as it has ever been and the rest of the phases of the game probably the worst. So calls to drop Imam or Babar are childish and stupid is my point.

 

[Itachi]

Unfortunately the result of match doesn't depend of performances of top three only, if the bowling,captaincy and fielding are poor than the side will usually end up loosing.

In recent matches, imams slow century was the losing cause. When captain of opposition team says 350+ is par, you should realize that you've screwed up.

 

[Zhasan]

I'll take the top three of Anwar, Aamir Sohail and Ijaz over these numb nuts any day of the week.

 

[ali2220]

In recent matches, imams slow century was the losing cause. When captain of opposition team says 350+ is par, you should realize that you've screwed up.

No it wasn't. The root cause was our poor bowling, captaincy and fielding, even if Pak had scored 380, Eng would have chased it as Pak have been extremely poor on the field with our brainless captain.I'm no fan of imam, but can't blame him for everything.

 

[Mobashir]

Bro, by stats not only BD, your top 3 is historically best - this is the 2nd thread in this line and I wrote exactly that in last thread as well.

But, there are few other explanations given in my other posts - gather a summery of those, it should give you the answer. If still not convince, you are welcome to ignore my post or ranks.

Remember, I was the first person to praise that 361 effort in 2nd game - but still reality is two of your top 3 left the game exactly when at least one of them should have stuck around to complete what should have been an easier task as the toughest part was already done - stats doesn’t win you games and numbers are mere reflection of the batting condition. Play 10 games for n UK, your top 3 will further improve their already stunning stats.

PAK is running 0-9 in last 3 months and I think there has been 6/7 hundreds in that period, mostly by top 3 - it’s just stats. And, unlike BD batsmen, you can’t blame your bowlers either - in their little capacity BD top 3 is trying to cover up their bowling weakness, your top 3 is cashing on the bowlers good work - all these 3 wins were achieved chasing and each time bowlers actually handed the game by lunch. The day, they hang the game by the scarf & win it - I’ll be the first one to praise here, don’t worry and I can differentiate what is stats and what is impact.

I am also not a stat follower but still they can give a picture. I rate BD's batting overall, but it's just not because of the top 3.
Bangladesh have good LOI's batsmen till number 7. They bat like a team, all have to contribute something between 30-60 at a good SR.
We don't have a batting line up : We have a young, inexperience top 3 that has to score big runs at a good SR otherwise the match is lost. Sarfraz can't bat, Asif Ali has to come in only such and such situation, etc...

 

[QalandarFan]

In recent matches, imams slow century was the losing cause. When captain of opposition team says 350+ is par, you should realize that you've screwed up.

Yes Imam who is averaging something like a 100 at a SR of 90 this series is the root cause of our problems, and needs to be benched ASAP.

 

[Hyperion66]

Imam will retire an all format ATG, you heard it here first.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Unfortunately the result of match doesn't depend of performances of top three only, if the bowling,captaincy and fielding are poor than the side will usually end up loosing.

These are belter pitches, England have also struggled to contain with the bowling. When you have the top order scoring hundreds you would expect to be in a position to post totals which are very difficult to reach. Expecting the middle/late order to score faster against the best bowlers is a risky strategy. Far easier to attack the middle overs which are usually bowled by the weaker bowlers, and that is where century making top order batsmen for Pakistan have been questioned.

 

[jeeteshssaxena]

Imam will retire an all format ATG, you heard it here first.

Doesn't have the natural talent to achieve that.
At best he can reach the level of Saurav Ganguly.
His odi gameplay is also quite similar to ganguly, consistent but not explosive enough.
Struggle against bouncers is another similarity.

 

[Dr_Bassim]

Someone posted statistics about how the top 3 batsmen of Pakistan have changed from 2010 to 2019 averaging 27 to somewhere around 48 by now.

I think one glaring thing to note is that over the last 09 years, the pitches have generally become belters as well and it is a natural progression of how cricket has changed that teams can no longer afford to consolidate in the PP overs and have to go gung ho attack from the start.

That's not to say batsmen of 2010 = 2019.

But I am just saying those statistics would have been possible had even Kamran Akmal was opening in the current conditions with Umar Akmal along with one down Babar. Perhaps wouldn't have averaged 48, but at least close to 40 and definitely not 27.

 

[proud_pakistani]

They are certainly a huge upgrade from Shahzad, Hafeez, Manzoor, etc.

But to say they are our best ever top 3 is tough due to the difference of eras. Watching Saeed Anwar, Aamir Sohail and Ijaz Ahmed bat my gut tells me in the current batting conditions they would be destroying bowling attacks. They would have feasted on these pitches going around these days.

 

[Duckworth Lewis]

Our top 3 now actually are Tanim, Soumya & Shakib.

Do you think Bangladesh would have chased down 373 or would have made 340+ scores successively against England?

 

[Goooby]

Yes winning is important but we lose because of poor bowling and fielding or late order finish

Agree with you completely. As good as it is to look to continuously improve our top 3, they tend to get too much of the blame for losing the game. We've come a long way in that department, if our late order can win us games our batting as a whole will be complete. If our bowling can click we'll become unstoppable and we're not too far away from that. I personally think we need to really take a look at our bowling coach here.

 

[MMHS]

Do you think Bangladesh would have chased down 373 or would have made 340+ scores successively against England?

Chasing 373 is a bit different issue - for a reason only once a target of that size had been chased (but IND once chased 360 inside 40-42 overs with 1 down), but I can say that chasing 373, if BD can reach 227-1 after 32’5 overs, we’ll most cases finish the chase successfully.

We did cross 300 against Poms in 2017, so in such batting conditions like this series, we’ll definitely cross 340 at least once in 3 tries, but don’t think 3 successive time is possible. However, if we score 340+ 3 successive times - be sure that tundler brigade won’t allow it to go down 0-3.

 

[W63L35]

Someone posted statistics about how the top 3 batsmen of Pakistan have changed from 2010 to 2019 averaging 27 to somewhere around 48 by now.

I think one glaring thing to note is that over the last 09 years, the pitches have generally become belters as well and it is a natural progression of how cricket has changed that teams can no longer afford to consolidate in the PP overs and have to go gung ho attack from the start.

That's not to say batsmen of 2010 = 2019.

But I am just saying those statistics would have been possible had even Kamran Akmal was opening in the current conditions with Umar Akmal along with one down Babar. Perhaps wouldn't have averaged 48, but at least close to 40 and definitely not 27.

Yes, you are right .... the pitches have generally become belters ....as the stats below show the trend in the S/R increase ....

then the better measure is .... how Pakistani batsmen have improved in comparison with the batsmen of other top teams;

Pakistani ODI batsmen at batting position 1-to-6 from 2010 to 2019.
http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/en...al1=span;team=7;template=results;type=batting


Aus/NZ/IND/SAF/ENG (combined) ODI batsmen at batting position 1-to-6 from 2010 to 2019.
http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/en...3;team=5;team=6;template=results;type=batting


Below is the Ave and S/R difference between the two tables above.

Please note...
year 2010-2015 - the difference in S/R is in double digits.
year 2016-2019 - the improvement - this year, only 2 points.

So our S/R has improved tremendously in comparison to other top teams!



I don't know why the fans (who are complaining our batting) can't see this TREMENDOUS improvement in our batting.....

 

[Majid Khan]

I would add Haris Sohail at 4 and together with Fakhar, Imam and Babar that’s about as good and consistent a top four we have seen for a while which can serve Pakistan cricket well for some time.

 

[QalandarFan]

And there we go to further prove my point we change the combo up just a little bit and we were reeling again 6/3. Once again it was Babar who got us out of the hole along with Sarfraz. But some people do not realize or are trying to ignore the fact that this is the best Top 3 we have had in a looong time and one of the top 5 top orders in the world today.

 

[Ronaldo7]

Fakhar is really getting exposed.

 

[QalandarFan]

Fakhar is really getting exposed.

Yes a fifty and a hundred this tour but he's getting exposed.

 

[BDfanforever]

Sorry OP, but once you filter out ZIM/AFG and England pitches below is a true representation of the Top Order, which answers despite having such high averages from top 3 why Pakistan was still losing. Look at that SR, it's quite appalling.

 

[Sunny_majoka]

Sorry OP, but once you filter out ZIM/AFG and England pitches below is a true representation of the Top Order, which answers despite having such high averages from top 3 why Pakistan was still losing. Look at that SR, it's quite appalling.


View attachment 91685

They mostly play on dead pitches pf uae.
Their strike rate is much better on true pitches

 

[Mehndi155]

Throw in haris the top 4 is pretty good.
Saffi at 5 hafeez at 6 would be decent combo only hafeeez lets off his ego

 

[Ronaldo7]

Yes a fifty and a hundred this tour but he's getting exposed.

Got out the same way 3 times. A good bowling attack will easily catch that

 

[topspin]

Doesn't have the natural talent to achieve that.
At best he can reach the level of Saurav Ganguly.
His odi gameplay is also quite similar to ganguly, consistent but not explosive enough.
Struggle against bouncers is another similarity.

Very good analogy - especially the way Imam charges down (out of his crease) and his susceptibility against he short ball, reminds me of Ganguly. But I don't think Imam will reach his level because he's quite weak against spin, whereas the Indian LOI legend used to hit spinners with ease.

 

[warcry]

Given Pakistan;s top order shambles from past 20 years. Having to put with the likes of
- Shahid Afridi
-Kamran Akmal
-Nasir Jamshed
-Yasir Hameed
-Taufeeq Umar
-Imran Farhat
-Younus Khan
-Mohammed Hafeez
-Salman Butt

The top three currently employed by Pakistan is comfortably light years ahead of the aforementioned in strike rat, and average.
I will not go further back in time, as that was a different era, all together.

It is such a shame that now that we have a fully functioning top order, our bowling attack is now conceding 350+.