Has the Pakistan pace bowling attack (barring Mohammad Amir) become comparable to the Indian one?

[street cricketer]

This might be a very controversial thread here. But I'm sorry guys, that time which we would have never imagined has indeed come.

India is always known as a batting powerhouse while Pakistan is more renowned for its strong bowling attack. The Indian bowling is usually known for its ineffectiveness and ineptitude, especially on unresponsive tracks. The Indian bowling can be described as "average" or at best, above average and they generally need helpful tracks to perform well. While in contrast, the Pakistani bowling is traditionally known for its pace, skill and mercurial wicket taking ability and take the pitch out of the equation because of their tight line and pace. Most people would not mention the Indian bowlers in the same line as Pak bowlers.

However off late, I have seen a decline in the Pakistani bowling standards. Barring Amir, other Pak pacers seem devoid of the skills and the ability that so differentiated the yesteryear Pakistani bowling attacks from the Indian ones. Last match they struggled to find rhythm before they were bailed out by Yasir's brilliance. Yasir has been having a poor match now and Pak pacers seen unable to take a stranglehold of the match. Remember that this English line up has a really shaky batting line up as well. The English batsmen are looking at utmost ease and the overnight nightwatchman has scored a fifty. It almost reminds you of an Indian bowling performance.

The question is, has the Pak pace bowling attack (barring Amir) regressed (or Indian attack improved) to comparable levels with the Indian bowling attack?

 

[Zak_Fan]

There is nothing controversial about the obvious. Even with Amir, they don't seem to be doing very well.

 

[Slog]

Amir isn't setting the world alight either honestly

But I think we still make more chances

Wahab is comparable to Yadav I guess

 

[Mamoon]

Shami, Bhuvi and Ishant are better than Wahab, Rahat, Imran and Sohail.

 

[Slog]

Though you are wrong in your statement that the Pak attack is devoid of skills and ability

 

[Slog]

Shami, Bhuvi and Ishant are better than Wahab, Rahat, Imran and Sohail.

In tests. Not really

 

[Mamoon]

In tests. Not really

In Tests, Bhuvi is easily better in English conditions, no one other than Amir can swing the new ball like him.

Shami vs Wahab vs Rahat is close in Tests, pretty much the same.

Ishant is inconsistent too but he has achieved a lot more than them in Tests.

Our pace attack in ODIs is actually worse because Wahab and Rahat are better in Tests, while Irfan is finished as well.

 

[Pete Rose]

Don't know. Hopefully can comment after this series.

 

[hur rizvi]

Nothing controversial at all, they are in pretty bad shape

Wahab is hardly a good test bowler when ball doesnt get scuffed up and Rahat is too inconsistent

 

[The Last Of The Stars]

Barring Imran Khan, huh.

 

[street cricketer]

This is not a knee jerk thread btw. I have seen the decline since the last year or so.

In the last one year, these are the stats for the bowlers of both sides:

Ishant wkts 14 avg. 30.64 (sr 68)
Rahat wkts 10 avg. 35.90 (64.8)
Wahab wkt 10 avg. 54.20 (95.5)
Yadav wkts 10 avg. 27.90 (60)

Imran and Amir have just played 2 matches.

What is more interesting is Pak pacers seem to be going more for runs (around 3.4 per over) than the Indian ones (2.7 per over).

 

[street cricketer]

Though you are wrong in your statement that the Pak attack is devoid of skills and ability

In the sense that lack of ability to bowl a consistent line or take the pitch out of the equation like their predecessors.

 

[Syed1]

One innings and the knives come out.

 

[ethan hunt]

This might be a very controversial thread here. But I'm sorry guys, that time which we would have never imagined has indeed come.

India is always known as a batting powerhouse while Pakistan is more renowned for its strong bowling attack. The Indian bowling is usually known for its ineffectiveness and ineptitude, especially on unresponsive tracks. The Indian bowling can be described as "average" or at best, above average and they generally need helpful tracks to perform well. While in contrast, the Pakistani bowling is traditionally known for its pace, skill and mercurial wicket taking ability and take the pitch out of the equation because of their tight line and pace. Most people would not mention the Indian bowlers in the same line as Pak bowlers.

However off late, I have seen a decline in the Pakistani bowling standards. Barring Amir, other Pak pacers seem devoid of the skills and the ability that so differentiated the yesteryear Pakistani bowling attacks from the Indian ones. Last match they struggled to find rhythm before they were bailed out by Yasir's brilliance. Yasir has been having a poor match now and Pak pacers seen unable to take a stranglehold of the match. Remember that this English line up has a really shaky batting line up as well. The English batsmen are looking at utmost ease and the overnight nightwatchman has scored a fifty. It almost reminds you of an Indian bowling performance.

The question is, has the Pak pace bowling attack (barring Amir) regressed (or Indian attack improved) to comparable levels with the Indian bowling attack?

What totals did england make against india ??

 

[geraltofrivia]

One innings and the knives come out.

Not one innings. Rahat and Wahab avg 36 over their careers.

 

[street cricketer]

What totals did england make against india ??

Around 400-500 mostly.

But it's not about this innings alone. It's a one year trend.

 

[ethan hunt]

England vs india 2014 old trafford .
England 569 /7 dec in reply to 178 by india. This wasnt even a one off
How many times have pakistani bowlers conceded such totals ??
Wahab and rahat arent good enough but much better than indian fast bowlers as a group. These guys can excell in certain conditions at least.

 

[shah_1]

Rahat and Wahab are useless so I agree

 

[shah_1]

It's time to move on from Wahab Riaz

Extremely overrated

 

[ethan hunt]

Around 400-500 mostly.

But it's not about this innings alone. It's a one year trend.

So do you honestly beleive pakistan will give away 400-500 totals everygame in england ?? Or even something like 500 -600 like india did in newzealand ??
Although i do agree wahab and rahat are poor by pakistani standards .

 

[street cricketer]

So do you honestly beleive pakistan will give away 400-500 totals everygame in england ?? Or even something like 500 -600 like india did in newzealand ??
Although i do agree wahab and rahat are poor by pakistani standards .

I was talking about the trend in the last year.

And a Pak attack containing Amir and Yasir is conceding 500, not much of a difference if you ask me.

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

England vs india 2014 old trafford .
England 569 /7 dec in reply to 178 by india. This wasnt even a one off
How many times have pakistani bowlers conceded such totals ??
Wahab and rahat arent good enough but much better than indian fast bowlers as a group. These guys can excell in certain conditions at least.

No...you are talking about Southampton where we scored 330.

At Old Trafford, England were 367 all out in response to India's 152.

http://www.espncricinfo.com/england-v-india-2014/engine/current/match/667717.html

Pitch was more conducive to pace though.

Lord's England were bowled out for 319 and 223.

Nottingham (draw), Southampton and Oval they did well.

Anyways, Paksitan attack even in its weak form has more wicket taking ability than Indian attack. But Pakistan attack has been pretty average this tour but made to look good by Yasir in 1st test. If not for him, England would have taken a 50-100 lead in 1st innings and won it. That's why I rate Yasir's performance so damn high in Lords.

Rahat would make it to the Indian team cos he may be a spray gun but a wicket taker. Wahab the "2 spells per series" bowler won't. In fact, he shouldn't make your team. He is a luxury few teams can afford.

 

[geraltofrivia]

England vs india 2014 old trafford .
England 569 /7 dec in reply to 178 by india. This wasnt even a one off
How many times have pakistani bowlers conceded such totals ??
Wahab and rahat arent good enough but much better than indian fast bowlers as a group. These guys can excell in certain conditions at least.

http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/current/match/902635.html
http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/649089.html
http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/current/match/742615.html
http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/745153.html
http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/858493.html

Will be many more by the time Pakistan finish with their Australia tour.

 

[geraltofrivia]

So do you honestly beleive pakistan will give away 400-500 totals everygame in england ?? Or even something like 500 -600 like india did in newzealand ??
Although i do agree wahab and rahat are poor by pakistani standards .

Yup.

 

[Statsman]

One innings and the knives come out.

Completely agree. I think some people are forgetting how Wahab made Watson and co. look like club cricketers not long ago.

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

*I was talking about overseas and not Asia.

 

[ethan hunt]

http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/current/match/902635.html
http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/649089.html
http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/current/match/742615.html
http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/745153.html
http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/858493.html

Will be many more by the time Pakistan finish with their Australia tour.

Lol. Take a look at the venues and pakistani totals in response.
We are talking overseas where indians regularly concede 400 -500 dec.
And get shot out in reply on the same pitch.

 

[Syed1]

Lol at the Indians trying to take solace in Pakistan's performance.

 

[ethan hunt]

No...you are talking about Southampton where we scored 330.

At Old Trafford, England were 367 all out in response to India's 152.

http://www.espncricinfo.com/england-v-india-2014/engine/current/match/667717.html

Pitch was more conducive to pace though.

Lord's England were bowled out for 319 and 223.

Nottingham (draw), Southampton and Oval they did well.

Anyways, Paksitan attack even in its weak form has more wicket taking ability than Indian attack. But Pakistan attack has been pretty average this tour but made to look good by Yasir in 1st test. If not for him, England would have taken a 50-100 lead in 1st innings and won it. That's why I rate Yasir's performance so damn high in Lords.

Rahat would make it to the Indian team cos he may be a spray gun but a wicket taker. Wahab the "2 spells per series" bowler won't. In fact, he shouldn't make your team. He is a luxury few teams can afford.

Wahab and rahat are not great and will be replaced down the line. In wahabs case should be replaced immediately.
But even than i wouldnt bet on pakistan conceding 400 plus dec on the tours to eng , aus , nz the amount of times india did .
Pakistani bowlers collectively are more versatile.

 

[geraltofrivia]

Lol. Take a look at the venues and pakistani totals in response.
We are talking overseas where indians regularly concede 400 -500 dec.
And get shot out in reply on the same pitch.

Pakistan hasn't even played overseas for that to happen.

I just wanted to point the fact that if Pakistan are conceding so much runs where their bowlers are at their maximum effectiveness what will happen in overseas pitches where their bowlers are nullified.

And if you are talking about totals in response to prove the flatness of the pitch, kindly check India's response in the recent matches you are quoting. Except for the last three England matches India were never shot out. All those high scoring matches India themselves hit 400+.

Can Pakistan do the same and respond to such a big score with their own 400+ score? Let's see.

 

[geraltofrivia]

Wahab and rahat are not great and will be replaced down the line. In wahabs case should be replaced immediately.
But even than i wouldnt bet on pakistan conceding 400 plus dec on the tours to eng , aus , nz the amount of times india did .
Pakistani bowlers collectively are more versatile.

Then that's a bad bet.

 

[ethan hunt]

Pakistan hasn't even played overseas for that to happen.

Do you see the irony in that statement ??
And if previous performances are anything to go by it wont happen as often as India.

 

[carbon11]

Wahab should be no where near test team not good enough period

For me he is t20 material and even in odis I have my doubts whether he should be there

As for rahat he is a support bowler not a bad option as third fourth change option but he is no strike bowler

But we are missing a genuine strike bowler who can partner Amir

 

[aslaisnomasla]

Haters not leaving any moment to bring pakistani bowling down, they spend their entire day thinking how to start a controversial thread where they can somehow make their garbage bowling look better then Pakistan .

 

[IAJ]

The only difference is that indian pace attack has allways been rubbish, whereas pakistani has been rubbish of late.

Had Asif and Aamir not messed it up in 2010 we still would have been good, overseas at least.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

I don't know why people were expecting much from this pace attack, only Amir is a top quality fast bowler. Wahab and Rahat will bowl the odd good delivery but they are inconsistent and limited in ability or nous.

 

[On_the_up]

These aren't your typical English conditions, its an batsman's paradise. Don't use this test as a barometer.

 

[Balthazar]

Haters not leaving any moment to bring pakistani bowling down, they spend their entire day thinking how to start a controversial thread where they can somehow make their garbage bowling look better then Pakistan .

We have a much superior team who have won many ICC tournaments in the last decade or so. In fact, you should feel honoured that we are taking our time to comment on a garbage team like yours.

 

[cric_lover]

Delusional Pakistani fans

 

[Zak_Fan]

A lot Pakistanis here are acting all hurt for no reason.

Your pace spearhead averages 30+ in Test Cricket. Wahab and Rahat will be averaging 40 by the end of this tour. Doesn't get any worse, even by Indian standards.

 

[ethan hunt]

Pakistani fast bowling attack may be unnecessarily hyped by the English media.

But Ian botham compared the indian bowling attack to the teletubbies .
It was that friendly.

 

[street cricketer]

England vs india 2014 old trafford .
England 569 /7 dec in reply to 178 by india. This wasnt even a one off
How many times have pakistani bowlers conceded such totals ??
Wahab and rahat arent good enough but much better than indian fast bowlers as a group. These guys can excell in certain conditions at least.

*cough* *cough*

 

[ethan hunt]

A lot Pakistanis here are acting all hurt for no reason.

Your pace spearhead averages 30+ in Test Cricket. Wahab and Rahat will be averaging 40 by the end of this tour. Doesn't get any worse, even by Indian standards.

Dont see them conceding 400 plus declared every game and being compared to teletubbies by ian botham , micheal vaughan , hussain and athers .
Thats a totally different level of bad.

 

[Sherlock]

At times I feel India are unfairly criticised because they don't have an out-and-out quickie, which is something some Pakistan fans don't adhere to. Which is frankly rubbish and wrong.

 

[Sherlock]

A lot Pakistanis here are acting all hurt for no reason.

Your pace spearhead averages 30+ in Test Cricket. Wahab and Rahat will be averaging 40 by the end of this tour. Doesn't get any worse, even by Indian standards.

You seem more concerned by that than others are. Maybe stoking the flames doesn't help either.

 

[Zak_Fan]

Dont see them conceding 400 plus declared every game and being compared to teletubbies by ian botham , micheal vaughan , hussain and athers .
Thats a totally different level of bad.

Teletubbies performed twice as good as your phaast ones, didn't they?

Talk big when even a single Pakistani pacer performs anywhere near what Ishant of Bhuvi did in England.

 

[Sherlock]

Dear God...

 

[ethan hunt]

Teletubbies performed twice as good as your phaast ones, didn't they?

Talk big when even a single Pakistani pacer performs anywhere near what Ishant of Bhuvi did in England.

Not really .Teletubbies failed to get 20 wickets in a single game over their overseas trips to Eng , Aus, Nz barring lords .
With the opposition having to declare most of the times
Hence the pakistanis have already done just as well as the teletubbies and perhaps will do much better.

 

[Zak_Fan]

Not really teletubbies failed to get 20 wickets in a single game over their overseas trips to Eng , Aus, Nz barring lords .
With the opposition having to declare.
Hence the pakistanis have already done just as well as the teletubbies and perhaps will do much better.

Still, far better than the phaast ones, or would you deny that?

 

[ethan hunt]

Still, far better than the phaast ones, or would you deny that?

Lol !!! Nice argument.
The English dont seem to think so.

 

[Zak_Fan]

Lol !!! Nice argument.
The English dont seem to think so.

Very strong argument.

Here's mine.. come back when ANY of your phaast ones performs even close to this -

Spoiler

 

[Sherlock]

Also forgot Ali took 19 wickets in that series

 

[MenInG]

We have a much superior team who have won many ICC tournaments in the last decade or so. In fact, you should feel honoured that we are taking our time to comment on a garbage team like yours.

And you are lucky we are allowing you to comment on our forums about our team. As they say in Urdu, apnee khal mai raheeyay to behtar hoga.

 

[AlphaFighter]

This so far is a very flat pitch, even Broad and Anderson are looking pedestrian so far inspite of late over cast conditions.

 

[The_KING]

Nothing controversial about it. Pakistani pace bowling has been extremely overrated for a long time now and is now on the same level as Indian pace bowling. In the last few years, we have been extremely reliant on spinners such as Ajmal, Hafeez, Afridi and now Yasir. Even Amir isn't really setting the world on fire and is massively overrated. We aren't producing Wasims, Waqars, Imrans, Asifs anymore.

 

[proud_pakistani]

No. Pakistani bowlers like Rahat Ali and Imran Khan are extremely under rated. They have bowled very well even in absence of Aamir in tough conditions. Yes they have not blown teams away but they have still performed decently well. Even bowling power houses do concede runs. In this test credit has to go to Joe Root who batted brilliantly. Let us not take that away from him.

 

[The_Odd_One]

Since 2000, Pakistani pacers have done better than Indians in Aus, SA, Eng, and NZ.

Akhtar averages 19
Aif averages 25
Aamir averages 28
Gul averages 34
Sami averages 46
Riaz averages 36

Here are India's bowlers:

Zaheer averages 31
Ishant averages 45
Sreesanth averages 36
Shami averages 42
Agarkar averages 48
RP Singh averages 39

I think there is a general consensus that Akhtar, Asif, and Aamir are world class fast bowlers. So, understandably, they did better.

However, bowlers like Sami, Riaz, Gul are pretty much comparable Indian fast bowlers like Zaheer, Ishant, etc.

 

[The_Odd_One]

Since 2000, 7 Pakistani pacers averaged below 30 (Akhtar, Shabbir, Asif, Tanveer, Imran jr, Waqar, Aamir) in all conditions.

In the same time frame, only 1 Indian bowler (Praveen Kumar) averages below 30.

 

[ethan hunt]

Since 2000, Pakistani pacers have done better than Indians in Aus, SA, Eng, and NZ.

Akhtar averages 19
Aif averages 25
Aamir averages 28
Gul averages 34
Sami averages 46
Riaz averages 36

Here are India's bowlers:

Zaheer averages 31
Ishant averages 45
Sreesanth averages 36
Shami averages 42
Agarkar averages 48
RP Singh averages 39

I think there is a general consensus that Akhtar, Asif, and Aamir are world class fast bowlers. So, understandably, they did better.

However, bowlers like Sami, Riaz, Gul are pretty much comparable Indian fast bowlers like Zaheer, Ishant, etc.

[MENTION=139678]Zak_Fan[/MENTION]
Didnt know Shami was this poor.

 

[The_Odd_One]

If I run the same query for last 5 years with minimum 10 innings as criterion for a bowler, no Pakistani averaged above 40, while 3 Indians averaged above 40.

Note that the query returns 6 bowlers from both teams who have bowled at least in 10 innings.

Indian bowlers have done worse despite playing in more bowling friendly conditions.

 

[Bhaag Viru Bhaag]

Since 2000, Pakistani pacers have done better than Indians in Aus, SA, Eng, and NZ.

Akhtar averages 19
Aif averages 25
Aamir averages 28
Gul averages 34
Sami averages 46
Riaz averages 36

Here are India's bowlers:

Zaheer averages 31
Ishant averages 45
Sreesanth averages 36
Shami averages 42
Agarkar averages 48
RP Singh averages 39

I think there is a general consensus that Akhtar, Asif, and Aamir are world class fast bowlers. So, understandably, they did better.

However, bowlers like Sami, Riaz, Gul are pretty much comparable Indian fast bowlers like Zaheer, Ishant, etc.

Individually indian bowlers won't be better than the pakistani ones if we compare their averages. But as a team they have bowled well and won matches for india. It was due to indian batting india lost last couple of tours away from home.

 

[waleed88]

This is not a knee jerk thread btw. I have seen the decline since the last year or so.

In the last one year, these are the stats for the bowlers of both sides:

Ishant wkts 14 avg. 30.64 (sr 68)
Rahat wkts 10 avg. 35.90 (64.8)
Wahab wkt 10 avg. 54.20 (95.5)
Yadav wkts 10 avg. 27.90 (60)

Imran and Amir have just played 2 matches.

What is more interesting is Pak pacers seem to be going more for runs (around 3.4 per over) than the Indian ones (2.7 per over).

India has played more tours abroad than this contingent of Pakistani bowling, having had tours everywhere from Australia, England, SA, Newzealand.

Whereas Pakistan's most recent high profile series was against South Africa in SA in the early part of 2013.. that was a good 3.5 years ago..

In this time the Indian team has a whole year of tours abroad, so naturally more exposure to the Indian side in terms of bowling department, yet to produce such shoddy stats despite having almost played 3-4 times the number of games in foreign conditions is pretty poor to be honest..

Pakistan's last trip to Australia/England yielded them a host of good names, which then carried on the attack for a long time.. Amir/Wahab/Saeed Ajmal were prominent performers in that series.. Mohammad Asif already established himself as a lethal fast bowler by then and increasing his reputation over there..

However Indian bowlers have shown no progress whatsoever, still not able to produce a bowling great for that matter

 

[Abhilash93]

[MENTION=139678]Zak_Fan[/MENTION]
Didnt know Shami was this poor.

Not enough sample size.

 

[Shutdown Corner]

Indian pace attack might actually be better. Amir in his prime form though would give the slight advantage to PAK.

 

[Ellipsism]

Not one innings. Rahat and Wahab avg 36 over their careers.

This is Rahat's first time not playing on the grave yards of the UAE and Sri Lanka.

 

[geraltofrivia]

This is Rahat's first time not playing on the grave yards of the UAE and Sri Lanka.

1. That's wrong. He's played 2 matches in SA.
2. He avgs 37.83 in SA and 36 in England. No real difference from his career average.

 

[waleed88]

1. That's wrong. He's played 2 matches in SA.
2. He avgs 37.83 in SA and 36 in England. No real difference from his career average.

Oh dear me, 2 test matches 3.5 years ago.. you have to be kidding me..

Thats almost 60% of the time Amir has not played International cricket in.. He has changed quite alot since his debut vs SA 3.5 years ago.. back then he was military medium hardly faster than 82-83 mph..

He got a 6'fer in the 3rd test Match vs SA..

He has improved quite alot since then on flat pitches of the UAE he has been a handful for some very good batsmen.. He bowls around 140kph mark and gets it to swing both ways.. it wasn't the case back in 2013

 

[Ellipsism]

1. That's wrong. He's played 2 matches in SA.
2. He avgs 37.83 in SA and 36 in England. No real difference from his career average.

That was his debut series, the majority of his career has been on dustbowls.

I'm not trying to make excuses or anything, because he has been releasing pressure, but in this test he has had issues with the danger zone, forcing him to bowl wide of the crease, which doesn't allow him to swing the ball in.

That's why I'm vowing for Rahat to be dropped but then again we only have one bowler on the side line and Wahab has been worse.

 

[90MPH]

No some bowlers like Rahat have the brains of Indian trundlers but ability wise I would say Pakistani bowlers are always ahead, like they have been past 50 years.

Let's not be knee jerk just based on this match, people were singing the bowlers praises just last week. Are they not allowed to have a bad game ??

Maybe it's the batsman who should put their hands up as well, at least occasionally.

 

[geraltofrivia]

Oh dear me, 2 test matches 3.5 years ago.. you have to be kidding me..

Thats almost 60% of the time Amir has not played International cricket in.. He has changed quite alot since his debut vs SA 3.5 years ago.. back then he was military medium hardly faster than 82-83 mph..

He got a 6'fer in the 3rd test Match vs SA..

He has improved quite alot since then on flat pitches of the UAE he has been a handful for some very good batsmen.. He bowls around 140kph mark and gets it to swing both ways.. it wasn't the case back in 2013

Not talking about his ability. The argument was that his stats mirror the Indian fast bowlers and he is as good/bad as them which is reflected in the averages. Ability to bowl some magic deliveries but also get hit for a lot of runs.

Shami has a 5 fer in Sydney. Umesh has a 5 fer in Melbourne. Bhuvi has 5 fers in Lords/Trent Bridge. Ishant has 5 fers in Lords/Auckland/Wellington/Colombo etc. And all of them have had good spells on Indian flat/turning pitches and troubled good batsmen.

Fact of matter is all these guys - Wahab, Rahat, Ishant, Umesh, Bhuvi, Shami have similar test records (avg of 36 although I think with today's WI match the Indian bowlers who were playing have improved it by 1 or 2 points) and are similar in ability.

 

[waleed88]

Not talking about his ability. The argument was that his stats mirror the Indian fast bowlers and he is as good/bad as them which is reflected in the averages. Ability to bowl some magic deliveries but also get hit for a lot of runs.

Shami has a 5 fer in Sydney. Umesh has a 5 fer in Melbourne. Bhuvi has 5 fers in Lords/Trent Bridge. Ishant has 5 fers in Lords/Auckland/Wellington/Colombo etc. And all of them have had good spells on Indian flat/turning pitches and troubled good batsmen.

Fact of matter is all these guys - Wahab, Rahat, Ishant, Umesh, Bhuvi, Shami have similar test records (avg of 36 although I think with today's WI match the Indian bowlers who were playing have improved it by 1 or 2 points) and are similar in ability.

Yea we can say all that when we have played the same number of test matches in foreign conditions.. what was that stat about India not winning a game away from Home in 2010-11 was it?? 9-0 or something?? Atleast our bowling has never had those kind of stats regardless of how bad our bowling has been in the past

 

[MMHS]

I watched Indian pacers bowling in 2nd innings & high-lights of 1st innings. It's not even a comparison any more - the gap is much, much wider.

The way Shami, Umesh & Ishant made the batsmen play at new ball & varied their length within channel - it was impressive. This is a pathetic WI side, therefore with their wayward extra "Phast" staff of 5-10km; Wahab & Rahat can knock same WI even lower than 200; but the difference is clearly evident. Barring Aamir, other 2 PAK pacers have absolutely no control of their radar & none of them know how to use a new ball. All that they wait for is a 35 overs old ball & bring the game back from 150/1.

Relentless attack can work when one is defending a total on 4th innings or has a score to bowl with, in 2nd innings; but on green tops, these 2 bowlers would waste the new ball on Day 1 of a Test match. This Indian trio, if fit, can choke teams from scoring by keeping a 7-2 field with none in front of batsman. In AUS, if things don't change, Misbah would require to set an ODI field with new ball to stop T20 scoring rate. Besides, both Test are played with Dukes Test grade ball - either it swings more in WI than England; or the camera angle showed Indian pacers swinging the new ball far better & late - if both are false, then we can accept that Rahat & Wahab were swinging the new ball more. Umesh is bowling probably around 140km; Ishant & Shami around 134km - I give this one to Wahab (145km) & Rahat (138km)

Least said about ODI is better - not sure whom any team would like to chase a big total on a belter - IND, BD or PAK; on a good wicket. Last I can recall is under lights in Pallekelle; defending 288, PAK opening pair went for 100 in 10 overs, probably 17 or 18 boundaries in it all around the park.

Aamir is a different class, so probably no one would bring him in this comparison.

 

[big_gamer007]

Pakistan attack is alright... But the way it is hyped on here it seems very overrated. Otherwise it is a decent attack.. Indian attack is meh but there is not that big of a difference between both the attacks tbh.. Pakistani attack currently is one of their weakest for a long time..

 

[geraltofrivia]

Yea we can say all that when we have played the same number of test matches in foreign conditions.. what was that stat about India not winning a game away from Home in 2010-11 was it?? 9-0 or something?? Atleast our bowling has never had those kind of stats regardless of how bad our bowling has been in the past

How is winning away for home even relevant?

The OP has mentioned that is the Pakistani pace bowling attack (bar Amir) equal to the Indian pace bowling attack. The answer is yes as can be gleamed from averages. For the argument that Pakistan has just played inside the subcontinent Wahab and Rahat average the same outside in the 3-4 matches that they have played (And averages normalizes the number of matches played).

 

[big_gamer007]

How is winning away for home even relevant?

The OP has mentioned that is the Pakistani pace bowling attack (bar Amir) equal to the Indian pace bowling attack. The answer is yes as can be gleamed from averages. For the argument that Pakistan has just played inside the subcontinent Wahab and Rahat average the same outside in the 3-4 matches that they have played (And averages normalizes the number of matches played).

Barring Amir, I would prefer Indian attack over this Pakistani attack..

Though Amir has not been bowling as I expected he would yet.. Been averagish bowler till now..

 

[waleed88]

How is winning away for home even relevant?

The OP has mentioned that is the Pakistani pace bowling attack (bar Amir) equal to the Indian pace bowling attack. The answer is yes as can be gleamed from averages. For the argument that Pakistan has just played inside the subcontinent Wahab and Rahat average the same outside in the 3-4 matches that they have played (And averages normalizes the number of matches played).

3-4 matches in a span of 6 years is nothing compared to the 15 odd games Indian team plays in a year.. there is just no comparison at all..

For the record Wahab played only 2 test matches in England.. whereas Rahat played only 2 in SA..

 

[waleed88]

How is winning away for home even relevant?

The OP has mentioned that is the Pakistani pace bowling attack (bar Amir) equal to the Indian pace bowling attack. The answer is yes as can be gleamed from averages. For the argument that Pakistan has just played inside the subcontinent Wahab and Rahat average the same outside in the 3-4 matches that they have played (And averages normalizes the number of matches played).

Also winning is relevant because according to a lot of people, including your very own Harsha Bhogle and Akash Chopra, bowlers win you games in foreign conditions..
There is no comparison between India's batting and Pakistan's so it was obvious it has to be the bowling that wins you whenever it does

 

[geraltofrivia]

Barring Amir, I would prefer Indian attack over this Pakistani attack..

Though Amir has not been bowling as I expected he would yet.. Been averagish bowler till now..

Has been averaging 38 in these two matches. From what little I've seen of him he seems to thrive on green wickets but isn't that good on flatter wickets and his test averages in SL, NZ and Oz attest to that as does his WorldT20 performances. Headingley should be good for him.

 

[geraltofrivia]

Also winning is relevant because according to a lot of people, including your very own Harsha Bhogle and Akash Chopra, bowlers win you games in foreign conditions..
There is no comparison between India's batting and Pakistan's so it was obvious it has to be the bowling that wins you whenever it does

Winning involves batsmen and spinners and catching etc etc. Here we are talking only of fast bowlers barring Amir.

 

[big_gamer007]

Has been averaging 38 in these two matches. From what little I've seen of him he seems to thrive on green wickets but isn't that good on flatter wickets and his test averages in SL, NZ and Oz attest to that as does his WorldT20 performances. Headingley should be good for him.

Yea true but his ceiling in favorable conditions is extremely high compared to his Indian counterparts.. Lets see how he does in Headingly, should be a good battle vs Cook/Root.