Has the US successfully secularised Muslims?

[shaykh]

The results of a Pew study were quite revealing and are very different to results in the UK for example...what isn’t clear from the results is whether the respondents arrived secular for those who are immigrants or became...

Here are a few interesting parts...

When asked what is essential to being Muslim:

85% believe it is important to believe in God
72% believe it is important to love Muhammad
59% believe it is important to follow Quran and Sunnah
48% believe it is important to eat halal foods
44% believe it is important to dress modestly

66% preferred democrats in 2017

There have been three surveys (2007-2017)...and the support for republicans has never gone over 13%...while support for the democrats has been over 60%...

In 2007 27% of Muslims were accepting of homosexuality...that jumped to 52% in 2017...

What I find interesting is there is generally a support for big government ...not many of the libertarian persuasion ...and this is one area where they differed from the general ...

48% of the US public overall want a bigger government, with it being 67% for Muslims...

Links with age and practice are interesting ...

53% of those aged over 55 pray 5 times a day ...it drops for each age group with the number being 33% for 18-29 year olds ...

Mosque visits are relatively low...43% visit weekly or more...
26% go rarely or never...

38% wear hijab...

80% fast during Ramadan ...

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Pakistanis are generally better educated in the US, the ones in the UK tend to be from a bit more rough and ready areas of Pakistan where life is a bit more basic and religion holds more sway. But even then, most subsequent generations are going to be affected by their surroundings, and the vast majority already don't expect Britain to be anything but secular. If they wanted to be in a country where religion ruled they would probably not have left Pakistan.

 

[WhenSultansBowled]

85% believe it is important to believe in God
72% believe it is important to love Muhammad
59% believe it is important to follow Quran and Sunnah
48% believe it is important to eat halal foods
44% believe it is important to dress modestly

Lols
What is the source of this?
Are you a troll?

 

[Bigboii]

Hell yeah they changed people by locking up suspects in hours time there's
I don't know who but someone important said almost all the mosques of "all" tristate areas were infiltrated at some point for some reason by which I mean an agent is in there trying to hunt people down to get promotion

In this situation there was no other choice but to get straightened up and get "secularized"

but at the same time the whole US had a shift on these issues so as part of US pop we will see a shift in our communities too

 

[from_da_lost_dim3nsion]

Pakistanis are generally better educated in the US, the ones in the UK tend to be from a bit more rough and ready areas of Pakistan where life is a bit more basic and religion holds more sway. But even then, most subsequent generations are going to be affected by their surroundings, and the vast majority already don't expect Britain to be anything but secular. If they wanted to be in a country where religion ruled they would probably not have left Pakistan.

100

 

[shaykh]

Lols
What is the source of this?
Are you a troll?

Pew
https://www.pewforum.org/2017/07/26/acknowledgements/

 

[from_da_lost_dim3nsion]

The results of a Pew study were quite revealing and are very different to results in the UK for example...what isn’t clear from the results is whether the respondents arrived secular for those who are immigrants or became...

Here are a few interesting parts...

When asked what is essential to being Muslim:

85% believe it is important to believe in God
72% believe it is important to love Muhammad
59% believe it is important to follow Quran and Sunnah
48% believe it is important to eat halal foods
44% believe it is important to dress modestly

66% preferred democrats in 2017

There have been three surveys (2007-2017)...and the support for republicans has never gone over 13%...while support for the democrats has been over 60%...

In 2007 27% of Muslims were accepting of homosexuality...that jumped to 52% in 2017...

What I find interesting is there is generally a support for big government ...not many of the libertarian persuasion ...and this is one area where they differed from the general ...

48% of the US public overall want a bigger government, with it being 67% for Muslims...

Links with age and practice are interesting ...

53% of those aged over 55 pray 5 times a day ...it drops for each age group with the number being 33% for 18-29 year olds ...

Mosque visits are relatively low...43% visit weekly or more...
26% go rarely or never...

38% wear hijab...

80% fast during Ramadan ...

TBH the hijab % seems a bit higher that i thought it would be . The rest of the percentages seem pretty real. Fun fact : Muslims in general aligned with the republicans more up until Bush Jr 1st term. The WOT and Iraq war did have a huge affect on American Muslims in particular. The spot light has been on us ever since and I guess it has made us keep our house in order more. NGL Islamophobia is there but its more a mix of racism than anything . Most Americans don't know much about Muslims than what teh media tells them.You are more likely to be picked on if you are a brown guy with a muslim sounding name than someone who is a lighter skin tone.

 

[TSA321]

66% preferred democrats in 2017

There have been three surveys (2007-2017)...and the support for republicans has never gone over 13%...while support for the democrats has been over 60%...

.

Even in European countries, the Muslims always overwhelmingly support the liberal and progressive political parties, so not sure what your point is with this.

 

[sweep_shot]

I believe some Muslims may have turned into irrational Muslims. They seem to have identity crisis.

Having said that, many Muslims in west are still practicing and that's a good thing.

 

[JaDed]

I believe some Muslims may have turned into irrational Muslims. They seem to have identity crisis.

Having said that, many Muslims in west are still practicing and that's a good thing.

You have issue with secularism which you have expressed before as well.

 

[Technics 1210]

All posters in this thread barring Captain, have no idea what secularism means. Including the OP who is not just clutching to ignorance, but to nonsense.

To the OP - go back and read a dictionary before posting such nonsense.

 

[JaDed]

All posters in this thread barring Captain, have no idea what secularism means. Including the OP who is not just clutching to ignorance, but to nonsense.

To the OP - go back and read a dictionary before posting such nonsense.

the principle of separation of the state from religious institutions is what I see..

-- do you have any other definition or do you think America is not secular?

 

[shaykh]

All posters in this thread barring Captain, have no idea what secularism means. Including the OP who is not just clutching to ignorance, but to nonsense.

To the OP - go back and read a dictionary before posting such nonsense.

Actually within social science the verb to secularise is to transform a society from close identification with religious values and religious institutions towards non-religious values and secular institutions ...

Which fits with the point being made...secularism isn’t simply division of religion and state ...

 

[shaykh]

TBH the hijab % seems a bit higher that i thought it would be . The rest of the percentages seem pretty real. Fun fact : Muslims in general aligned with the republicans more up until Bush Jr 1st term. The WOT and Iraq war did have a huge affect on American Muslims in particular. The spot light has been on us ever since and I guess it has made us keep our house in order more. NGL Islamophobia is there but its more a mix of racism than anything . Most Americans don't know much about Muslims than what teh media tells them.You are more likely to be picked on if you are a brown guy with a muslim sounding name than someone who is a lighter skin tone.

From the study Muslim Americans generally seem patriotic and see most Americans as accepting of them ...

Why do you feel there is a larger number on average who believe in big government?...I’d understand this is there was a reliance on welfare but Muslims seem to do just fine economically...

 

[Technics 1210]

Actually within social science the verb to secularise is to transform a society from close identification with religious values and religious institutions towards non-religious values and secular institutions ...

Which fits with the point being made...secularism isn’t simply division of religion and state ...

Wrong.

Stop waffling and tell us all what secularism is.

 

[shaykh]

Pakistanis are generally better educated in the US, the ones in the UK tend to be from a bit more rough and ready areas of Pakistan where life is a bit more basic and religion holds more sway. But even then, most subsequent generations are going to be affected by their surroundings, and the vast majority already don't expect Britain to be anything but secular. If they wanted to be in a country where religion ruled they would probably not have left Pakistan.

This argument tends to be made in London when looking northwards...

 

[shaykh]

Wrong.

Stop waffling and tell us all what secularism is.

Just told you ...it’s not simply religion and state ...the secularisation thesis itself determines that through modernisation and rationalisation religion begins to matter less in governance and in relation to this thread social life ...

So if people are observing religious practice less then the verb ‘to secularise’ can be used ...

I think you need to do a bit of reading before you instruct others to do so...

 

[Technics 1210]

Just told you ...it’s not simply religion and state ...the secularisation thesis itself determines that through modernisation and rationalisation religion begins to matter less in governance and in relation to this thread social life ...

So if people are observing religious practice less then the verb ‘to secularise’ can be used ...

I think you need to do a bit of reading before you instruct others to do so...

No you didn"t tell me anything.

Let me school you.

Secularism is the seperation of state and religion.

Simply put, this means, in a secular society, the government is not influenced by religion.

Go get a refund from your school.

 

[topspin]

Not secularised. The difference is their mosques haven't been infiltrated by Wahabis like we have in the UK.

 

[shaykh]

No you didn"t tell me anything.

Let me school you.

Secularism is the seperation of state and religion.

Simply put, this means, in a secular society, the government is not influenced by religion.

Go get a refund from your school.

But secular can be used as an adjective for more than just state ...secular people, secular music, secular schooling ie ‘not influenced by religion’...even society means not influenced by religion...which can mean the state or the people...

Cambridge dictionary as it happens makes no mention of state...

The definition: ‘not having a connection with religion’

And as stated social science defines secularisation as the effects of modernisation and rationalism not only on governance but personal practice ...ie women wearing hijab less would be an example of secularisation ...

 

[Technics 1210]

Just told you ...it’s not simply religion and state ...the secularisation thesis itself determines that through modernisation and rationalisation religion begins to matter less in governance and in relation to this thread social life ...

So if people are observing religious practice less then the verb ‘to secularise’ can be used ...

I think you need to do a bit of reading before you instruct others to do so...

But secular can be used as an adjective for more than just state ...secular people, secular music, secular schooling ie ‘not influenced by religion’...even society means not influenced by religion...which can mean the state or the people...

Cambridge dictionary as it happens makes no mention of state...

The definition: ‘not having a connection with religion’

And as stated social science defines secularisation as the effects of modernisation and rationalism not only on governance but personal practice ...ie women wearing hijab less would be an example of secularisation ...

There are no buts. Don't twist/change the definition of secularism.

Secualrism has nothing to do with religious tolerance within society. Your OP is false and ignorant.

 

[sweep_shot]

I have recently found out about gay mosque in Toronto. Auzubillah.

What in the blue hell is a gay mosque?

Check here: http://lgbtworldbeside.org/index.php/2019/05/23/gay-mosque-toronto-a-fusion-of-islam-and-lgbt-18/.

These people are brainwashed. These people need to read what happened to people of Lot (PBUH).

 

[miandadrules]

I have recently found out about gay mosque in Toronto. Auzubillah.

What in the blue hell is a gay mosque?

Check here: http://lgbtworldbeside.org/index.php/2019/05/23/gay-mosque-toronto-a-fusion-of-islam-and-lgbt-18/.

These people are brainwashed. These people need to read what happened to people of Lot (PBUH).

They are brainwashed but you aren’t?

 

[shaykh]

There are no buts. Don't twist/change the definition of secularism.

Secualrism has nothing to do with religious tolerance within society. Your OP is false and ignorant.

I just gave you a dictionary definition and a social science definition...

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...e-as-more-than-half-say-they-have-no-religion

Here is a simple example of it being used when describing Britain ...with the use ‘growth of secularism’...

Or here where secularism is used in a headline about 53% of the British people saying they are not religious ...and that only 18% are actively practicing ...

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...as-built-a-more-secular-britain-a7947091.html

The uses of a comparative ‘more’ again show your position to be false...

And this isn’t even going into social science usage ...

Like I said even a simple dictionary definition doesn’t agree with you...and you told people to look things up...

I both studied Sociology and an an English teacher so you are going to have to do better than ‘you’re wrong’ to make a valid case...

 

[sweep_shot]

They are brainwashed but you aren’t?

I am not.

I do not have an identity crisis like some of these "reformists".

 

[shaykh]

I have recently found out about gay mosque in Toronto. Auzubillah.

What in the blue hell is a gay mosque?

Check here: http://lgbtworldbeside.org/index.php/2019/05/23/gay-mosque-toronto-a-fusion-of-islam-and-lgbt-18/.

These people are brainwashed. These people need to read what happened to people of Lot (PBUH).

They use ikhtilaf ...and do actually read the story of Lot...just their interpretation is different ...ie it has to do with poor hospitality ...and the punishment was for attempting to rape guests rather than for homosexuality itself...

 

[sweep_shot]

They use ikhtilaf ...and do actually read the story of Lot...just their interpretation is different ...ie it has to do with poor hospitality ...and the punishment was for attempting to rape guests rather than for homosexuality itself...

So, you think it is fine for a Muslim to be gay? LOL.

If your answer is yes, no point in discussing with you.

 

[shaykh]

So, you think it is fine for a Muslim to be gay? LOL.

If your answer is yes, no point in discussing with you.

It’s not my business to be frank...if they think it’s fine it’s their prerogative...

I simply pointed out that they have read the Loot story and have a different interpretation of it...

 

[sweep_shot]

It’s not my business to be frank...if they think it’s fine it’s their prerogative...

I simply pointed out that they have read the Loot story and have a different interpretation of it...

Islam is pretty clear on homosexuality.

Please check these verses:

Do you indeed approach men with desire instead of women? Rather, you are a people behaving ignorantly." (27:55)

And [We had sent] Lot when he said to his people, "Do you commit such immorality as no one has preceded you with from among the worlds?

Indeed, you approach men with desire, instead of women. Rather, you are a transgressing people."

But the answer of his people was only that they said, "Evict them from your city! Indeed, they are men who keep themselves pure."

So We saved him and his family, except for his wife; she was of those who remained [with the evildoers].

And We rained upon them a rain [of stones]. Then see how was the end of the criminals.(7: 80-84)

 

[from_da_lost_dim3nsion]

From the study Muslim Americans generally seem patriotic and see most Americans as accepting of them ...

Why do you feel there is a larger number on average who believe in big government?...I’d understand this is there was a reliance on welfare but Muslims seem to do just fine economically...

I am no expert but I'll take a shot . Big govt means more policing , rule of law etc. Muslims are a minority in the US. Big govt = More protections for minorities, generally speaking . Be it equal opportunities , or safety .

 

[shaykh]

Islam is pretty clear on homosexuality.

Please check these verses:

I’m an apostate btw ...

Do I agree with you on how Islam views homosexuality?...yes...

Do I have an issue with Muslims using either reformist opinions or simply using their own rational opinions on issues?...as you can imagine I don’t...

So I understand the roof of your coconut Muslims comment...you view your religion as being *******ised much in the way some Christians feel the Enlightenment corrupted their creed...for some ppl people being less religious is a positive...or picking and choosing from it also...

 

[shaykh]

I am no expert but I'll take a shot . Big govt means more policing , rule of law etc. Muslims are a minority in the US. Big govt = More protections for minorities, generally speaking . Be it equal opportunities , or safety .

It was 72% among immigrants ...and 58% among those born in the US...

I suppose it could also be protection of religious rights along with things like safety ...big government is a bit of a loaded term ...

 

[Technics 1210]

I dont understand why anyone would give the day of light to a social term which is on par with BLM?

Do not entertain tolerance for secualrism; you are feeding ignorance.

 

[miandadrules]

I am not.

I do not have an identity crisis like some of these "reformists".

It truly is laughable.


You’ve been brainwashed from birth. So much so that it’s easy to predict your views, as they toe the party line so snuggly.

Before asking such questions, maybe a little introspection won’t go a miss.

 

[chacha kashmiri]

Not secularised. The difference is their mosques haven't been infiltrated by Wahabis like we have in the UK.

Other than Boston
Most terrorist activity in the US including marathon runners, time square etc have been Boston related

 

[chacha kashmiri]

This is the same question syed qutb asked when he went to America and he returned a completely different man to egypt

 

[shaykh]

This is the same question syed qutb asked when he went to America and he returned a completely different man to egypt

Yeh churches didn’t impress him...

‘If the church is the place for worship in the entire Christian world, in America it is everything but worship...they go to the church for carousel and enjoyment, or as they call it in their language, fun.’

He didn’t much like jazz either

‘It is this music the savage bushmen created to satisfy their primitive desires’

But yeah the *******isation of Christianity and the emphasis on self certainly bothered him ...as did American haircuts

 

[Gharib Aadmi]

TBH the hijab % seems a bit higher that i thought it would be . The rest of the percentages seem pretty real. Fun fact : Muslims in general aligned with the republicans more up until Bush Jr 1st term. The WOT and Iraq war did have a huge affect on American Muslims in particular. The spot light has been on us ever since and I guess it has made us keep our house in order more. NGL Islamophobia is there but its more a mix of racism than anything . Most Americans don't know much about Muslims than what teh media tells them.You are more likely to be picked on if you are a brown guy with a muslim sounding name than someone who is a lighter skin tone.

Because its a poll of all Muslims and not Pakistanis. In US i would say no more than 10/15% of Pakistani girls wear a hiajb.

 

[Gharib Aadmi]

Pakistanis are generally better educated in the US, the ones in the UK tend to be from a bit more rough and ready areas of Pakistan where life is a bit more basic and religion holds more sway. But even then, most subsequent generations are going to be affected by their surroundings, and the vast majority already don't expect Britain to be anything but secular. If they wanted to be in a country where religion ruled they would probably not have left Pakistan.

Yes thats true that US Pakistanis are better educated. But its not religion is unimportant to them, they are just more liberal in their view of religion.

 

[Gharib Aadmi]

I have recently found out about gay mosque in Toronto. Auzubillah.

What in the blue hell is a gay mosque?

Check here: http://lgbtworldbeside.org/index.php/2019/05/23/gay-mosque-toronto-a-fusion-of-islam-and-lgbt-18/.

These people are brainwashed. These people need to read what happened to people of Lot (PBUH).

Surprised they did not attend a regular mosque. Its not like people ask about sexual orientation in a mosque.

 

[Nfc120]

As a US born Pakistani, I think I can bring some light to the subject. Most muslims in America vote liberal because of the tolerance and acceptance amongst liberals in this country. Progressives also fight for equality, welfare, and an end to criminal warfare and US imperialism. Pluralism has become the name of the game for left wing politics.

Many of our religious teachers are older Pakistanis who have no clue what sort of challenges our generation faces and do not make an effort to identify with our struggles of assimilation or connect with us on any level. In fact, the aunties and uncles who go to mosque regularly are some of the most intolerant people I have ever met. They are equivalent to the evangelical Christians whose narrow mindedness results in bigotry and endless wars in our countries of origin. I do not identify with Islam in this sense of rigidity, punishment, and exclusion.

I pray when I want, i fast when I want, I drink alcohol, smoke weed, and engage in premarital sex. I’m successful in my education, support charitable work, and focus on voting for progressives politicians wherever I can as I believe they’re tenants align with core beliefs of Islam. I believe that rote memorization and ritual has little benefit in my life, yet I identify as a Muslims. My sins are my own and none of anybody else’s concern.

 

[CricketCartoons]

I pray when I want, i fast when I want, I drink alcohol, smoke weed, and engage in premarital sex. I’m successful in my education, support charitable work, and focus on voting for progressives politicians wherever I can as I believe they’re tenants align with core beliefs of Islam. I believe that rote memorization and ritual has little benefit in my life, yet I identify as a Muslims. My sins are my own and none of anybody else’s concern.

Explains why you vote for the so called progressive parties. They make a virtue out of all kinds of sins. You could still vote for them without indulging in acts which are forbidden.

 

[HussainRx8]

We're better educated and more accomplished than our bat-crap crazy, Salafist counterparts in Britain.

 

[Robert]

They use ikhtilaf ...and do actually read the story of Lot...just their interpretation is different ...ie it has to do with poor hospitality ...and the punishment was for attempting to rape guests rather than for homosexuality itself...

I agree with this, though am only aware of the Old Testament version.

Lot didn’t come across as a good guy, offering his daughters to the rape gang, and yet he was spared while they were nuked from orbit.

Struggling to see the moral message.

 

[shaykh]

I agree with this, though am only aware of the Old Testament version.

Lot didn’t come across as a good guy, offering his daughters to the rape gang, and yet he was spared while they were nuked from orbit.

Struggling to see the moral message.

One version I remember reading is Lot wasn’t a good guy ...his choice to go to Sodom in the first place was due to his licentiousness ...the fact that he gave up his daughters rather than himself is indicative of his personality ...as is his getting drunk before his daughters get impregnated by him ...general cowardice and his progeny ended up being the Ammobites and Moabites ...as in there are no positives to his story and it comes from him seeking sin while Abraham chose to go to Hebron ie the more holy option ...Ie the story is evidence of what not to do...

I have little time for either version to be honest but the problem that Islam has is it presents their Prophets as good and therefore find it harder to show the good in actions...Christians and Jews can just say Lot was an idiot ...Muslims can’t...so that part about offering up his two daughters is a tougher one for them to answer ...

 

[Bigboii]

One version I remember reading is Lot wasn’t a good guy ...his choice to go to Sodom in the first place was due to his licentiousness ...the fact that he gave up his daughters rather than himself is indicative of his personality ...as is his getting drunk before his daughters get impregnated by him ...general cowardice and his progeny ended up being the Ammobites and Moabites ...as in there are no positives to his story and it comes from him seeking sin while Abraham chose to go to Hebron ie the more holy option ...Ie the story is evidence of what not to do...

I have little time for either version to be honest but the problem that Islam has is it presents their Prophets as good and therefore find it harder to show the good in actions...Christians and Jews can just say Lot was an idiot ...Muslims can’t...so that part about offering up his two daughters is a tougher one for them to answer ...

Text are never "literal" it meant that instead of looking for men look at females make them your wives it wasn't like please take my daughter's it was more of a wider message

Damn it kinda reminds me of Afghanistan's situation tbh there's a big scene of "pimps" going to play grounds looking for kids paying them to become some rich guys "bride" till he becomes an adult

 

[shaykh]

Text are never "literal" it meant that instead of looking for men look at females make them your wives it wasn't like please take my daughter's it was more of a wider message

Damn it kinda reminds me of Afghanistan's situation tbh there's a big scene of "pimps" going to play grounds looking for kids paying them to become some rich guys "bride" till he becomes an adult

I remember a quite mad documentary I saw on Bacha baazi...something that was common in Ottoman times also...

’here are my daughters, they are purer for you’ ...you could I guess make the argument it isn’t literal...or I guess a better spin would be trying to guide them away from homosexuality by offering something straight ...the homosexual angle is more pronounced in the Islamic version than the Old Testament...

 

[Mamoon]

American Pakistanis are more comfortable with the choice that they have made and don’t carry a guilty conscience.

British Pakistanis are guilty of the fact that they left Pakistan and in order to cope with their identity crisis, they overcompensate with excessive loud patriotism over the Internet and force themselves to become quite radical in terms of religious beliefs.

 

[shaykh]

American Pakistanis are more comfortable with the choice that they have made and don’t carry a guilty conscience.

British Pakistanis are guilty of the fact that they left Pakistan and in order to cope with their identity crisis, they overcompensate with excessive loud patriotism over the Internet and force themselves to become quite radical in terms of religious beliefs.

The Americans commenting seem more liberal...in terms of your comment...why do you believe that difference to be the case ?

 

[shaykh]

We're better educated and more accomplished than our bat-crap crazy, Salafist counterparts in Britain.

What imams do you have ?

 

[Mamoon]

The Americans commenting seem more liberal...in terms of your comment...why do you believe that difference to be the case ?

Probably has to do with education. The more educated you are, the more likely you are to understand what a sham concept patriotism is.

In the context of Pakistanis, religiosity is a product of patriotism because there is no such thing as the “Pakistani identity” without Islam.

Thus, the more patriotic you are, the less liberal you are likely to be, and the more educated you are, the less patriotic you are likely to be. You are more likely to be tolerant of other cultures and assimilate better.

The percentage of educated Pakistanis in USA is greater than the percentage of of educated Pakistanis in the UK.

 

[Gharib Aadmi]

Probably has to do with education. The more educated you are, the more likely you are to understand what a sham concept patriotism is.

In the context of Pakistanis, religiosity is a product of patriotism because there is no such thing as the “Pakistani identity” without Islam.

Thus, the more patriotic you are, the less liberal you are likely to be, and the more educated you are, the less patriotic you are likely to be. You are more likely to be tolerant of other cultures and assimilate better.

The percentage of educated Pakistanis in USA is greater than the percentage of of educated Pakistanis in the UK.

US is a country of immigrants so its easier to assimilate here. Everyone came from somewhere else. For British Pakistanis, assimilation is alot harder because in the eyes of many people in the UK they can never be real Brits. There is already a British identity, and as non white people that can never assimilate into that.

Same way Turks can never be real Germans, even if they have lived there for generations, in the eyes of many in Germany.

 

[Gharib Aadmi]

As a US born Pakistani, I think I can bring some light to the subject. Most muslims in America vote liberal because of the tolerance and acceptance amongst liberals in this country. Progressives also fight for equality, welfare, and an end to criminal warfare and US imperialism. Pluralism has become the name of the game for left wing politics.

Many of our religious teachers are older Pakistanis who have no clue what sort of challenges our generation faces and do not make an effort to identify with our struggles of assimilation or connect with us on any level. In fact, the aunties and uncles who go to mosque regularly are some of the most intolerant people I have ever met. They are equivalent to the evangelical Christians whose narrow mindedness results in bigotry and endless wars in our countries of origin. I do not identify with Islam in this sense of rigidity, punishment, and exclusion.

I pray when I want, i fast when I want, I drink alcohol, smoke weed, and engage in premarital sex. I’m successful in my education, support charitable work, and focus on voting for progressives politicians wherever I can as I believe they’re tenants align with core beliefs of Islam. I believe that rote memorization and ritual has little benefit in my life, yet I identify as a Muslims. My sins are my own and none of anybody else’s concern.

You think British Pakistanis dont do that? Muslim men have been engaging in premaratial sex for the last 1,400 years. You have done nothing new. If you want to be truly liberal you would have no problem in accepting a Muslim women who has also done that. That would make you different, as the majority of Pakistani guys if they marry a Pakistani girl, expect her to be a virgin, even if they are not.

 

[shaykh]

You think British Pakistanis dont do that? Muslim men have been engaging in premaratial sex for the last 1,400 years. You have done nothing new. If you want to be truly liberal you would have no problem in accepting a Muslim women who has also done that. That would make you different, as the majority of Pakistani guys if they marry a Pakistani girl, expect her to be a virgin, even if they are not.

I’m not sure that final statement would be applicable in the UK...

 

[Nfc120]

You think British Pakistanis dont do that? Muslim men have been engaging in premaratial sex for the last 1,400 years. You have done nothing new. If you want to be truly liberal you would have no problem in accepting a Muslim women who has also done that. That would make you different, as the majority of Pakistani guys if they marry a Pakistani girl, expect her to be a virgin, even if they are not.

Just a comment on my own experience as a Pakistani Muslim. The OP I believe was asking about seculrization in America. Not making any comparisons to British Pakistanis in my post, I only know about American Pakistanis.

And in addition, I don’t give a damn if a Muslim girl has had premarital sex. Would actually prefer it, as I do not want a sheltered, timid, desexualized conservative Pakistani girl. Just my preference

 

[Nfc120]

Explains why you vote for the so called progressive parties. They make a virtue out of all kinds of sins. You could still vote for them without indulging in acts which are forbidden.

The very concept of sin does not sit right with me. To label homosexuality and drug abuse “disgusting sins” as you’re lot does, leads us to delegitimize and dehumanize the people who do such things. As a result, governments pass discriminatory and oppressive legislation based on cultural mores. Homosexuality is natural, and it’s existence is proven by science. Drug abuse is a direct function of poverty; why do you think the black community in America is adversely affected by drugs? Because blacks are naturally morally impaired? Teenage pregnancy is a result of lack of access and education to contraception. If these topics were treated with compassion and consideration rather than by illiterate imams and priests making ignorant comments, the world would be a better place.

 

[Mamoon]

US is a country of immigrants so its easier to assimilate here. Everyone came from somewhere else. For British Pakistanis, assimilation is alot harder because in the eyes of many people in the UK they can never be real Brits. There is already a British identity, and as non white people that can never assimilate into that.

Same way Turks can never be real Germans, even if they have lived there for generations, in the eyes of many in Germany.

That might have been true a century ago but it is certainly not true anymore. Most white Americans believe in the American identity and no longer consider themselves as immigrants anymore.

So the American identity now is pretty much as strong as the British identity.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

As a US born Pakistani, I think I can bring some light to the subject. Most muslims in America vote liberal because of the tolerance and acceptance amongst liberals in this country. Progressives also fight for equality, welfare, and an end to criminal warfare and US imperialism. Pluralism has become the name of the game for left wing politics.

Many of our religious teachers are older Pakistanis who have no clue what sort of challenges our generation faces and do not make an effort to identify with our struggles of assimilation or connect with us on any level. In fact, the aunties and uncles who go to mosque regularly are some of the most intolerant people I have ever met. They are equivalent to the evangelical Christians whose narrow mindedness results in bigotry and endless wars in our countries of origin. I do not identify with Islam in this sense of rigidity, punishment, and exclusion.

I pray when I want, i fast when I want, I drink alcohol, smoke weed, and engage in premarital sex. I’m successful in my education, support charitable work, and focus on voting for progressives politicians wherever I can as I believe they’re tenants align with core beliefs of Islam. I believe that rote memorization and ritual has little benefit in my life, yet I identify as a Muslims. My sins are my own and none of anybody else’s concern.

My father was not really a regular mosque goer, but he was extremely intolerant. In fact he was very intolerant of people who spent too much time in the mosque. He was one of the old guard original British Pakistanis in that he couldn't speak much English, but he had a massive vocabulary of English swear words which he learned from his early English neighbours.

He fit in really well in England mashallah, he was certainly a man of the times.

 

[Bigboii]

US is a country of immigrants so its easier to assimilate here. Everyone came from somewhere else. For British Pakistanis, assimilation is alot harder because in the eyes of many people in the UK they can never be real Brits. There is already a British identity, and as non white people that can never assimilate into that.

Same way Turks can never be real Germans, even if they have lived there for generations, in the eyes of many in Germany.

Europe is a different beast compared to North America there's a 1000s of years history of people just living among themselves but know there are different people you have to live with

But in US first native American than different European countries with different languages than other immigrant groups

 

[Bigboii]

That might have been true a century ago but it is certainly not true anymore. Most white Americans believe in the American identity and no longer consider themselves as immigrants anymore.

So the American identity now is pretty much as strong as the British identity.

Nah he is talking about the fact that you have to constantly deal with different group of people throughout history but the Europeans didn't have to there was a playbook

 

[Bigboii]

The very concept of sin does not sit right with me. To label homosexuality and drug abuse “disgusting sins” as you’re lot does, leads us to delegitimize and dehumanize the people who do such things. As a result, governments pass discriminatory and oppressive legislation based on cultural mores. Homosexuality is natural, and it’s existence is proven by science. Drug abuse is a direct function of poverty; why do you think the black community in America is adversely affected by drugs? Because blacks are naturally morally impaired? Teenage pregnancy is a result of lack of access and education to contraception. If these topics were treated with compassion and consideration rather than by illiterate imams and priests making ignorant comments, the world would be a better place.

I mean cousin marriage and sex with sister is also found in history but is it ok for society, should it also be allowed
If something is not natural there's no need for it to be done and by natural I mean can they produce healthy kids?

But I like conservative family values agenda so I am not a hypocrite like most of our cammunity who do welfare, welfare chant all the time

 

[miandadrules]

I mean cousin marriage and sex with sister is also found in history but is it ok for society, should it also be allowed
If something is not natural there's no need for it to be done and by natural I mean can they produce healthy kids?

But I like conservative family values agenda so I am not a hypocrite like most of our cammunity who do welfare, welfare chant all the time

So you’re suggesting genetic screening before people are allowed to have sex?

Infertile people shouldn’t have sex?

 

[shaykh]

I mean cousin marriage and sex with sister is also found in history but is it ok for society, should it also be allowed
If something is not natural there's no need for it to be done and by natural I mean can they produce healthy kids?

But I like conservative family values agenda so I am not a hypocrite like most of our cammunity who do welfare, welfare chant all the time

Cousin marriages is hardly historical now is it ....

 

[Gharib Aadmi]

That might have been true a century ago but it is certainly not true anymore. Most white Americans believe in the American identity and no longer consider themselves as immigrants anymore.

So the American identity now is pretty much as strong as the British identity.

Majority of white conservatives believe in that. Non whites, who are almost like 35 % of the population and increasing, and liberal whites believe it to a country of immigrants. So the majority of people dont believe European culture to be synonymous with an American identity.

In England, Germany, France, etc a brown/black person can never be a English/German/French person, because those are nationalities and ethnic groups. So you can be a citizen of a Britain but you cant be a real British, because you are not of the same ethnic stock.

So with that attitude its easier to adopt the American identity, and if a White American says go back to your country, you can always tell them to go back to Europe.

 

[Gharib Aadmi]

Europe is a different beast compared to North America there's a 1000s of years history of people just living among themselves but know there are different people you have to live with

But in US first native American than different European countries with different languages than other immigrant groups

Biggest difference is that the European countries are ethnic groups and nationalities, so even if you are a citizen you cant be part of the ethnic group. American is not an ethnicity. Anyone can be an American. So you can live there generations and still not be considered a part of that ethnicity. Especially if you are not white, a white person goes to Germany and he can assimilate a lot easier then a brown/black guy.

 

[Gharib Aadmi]

Just a comment on my own experience as a Pakistani Muslim. The OP I believe was asking about seculrization in America. Not making any comparisons to British Pakistanis in my post, I only know about American Pakistanis.

And in addition, I don’t give a damn if a Muslim girl has had premarital sex. [B]Would actually prefer it, [/B]as I do not want a sheltered, timid, desexualized conservative Pakistani girl. Just my preference

You are a better man than most.

 

[Bigboii]

So you’re suggesting genetic screening before people are allowed to have sex?

Infertile people shouldn’t have sex?

I meant healthy because both cousin and marriage with a sister results in retardation in kids it's nature's way of telling you are doing something wrong know infertility is more of a health related issue than a issue of nature telling us to not do something
Yes they can, should have sex
They can adopt cause they can provide a natural family environment for these kids

You need both a dad and a mom thier relationships are different with thier kids with just look at black cammunities thier father's are missing due to incarceration and these kids are not right in the head so kids raised in a gay household will also come out weird in the head

 

[miandadrules]

You are a better man than most.

Well, once one doesn’t see their spouse as their property and an equal than such things have little significance.

 

[miandadrules]

I meant healthy because both cousin and marriage with a sister results in retardation in kids it's nature's way of telling you are doing something wrong know infertility is more of a health related issue than a issue of nature telling us to not do something
Yes they can, should have sex
They can adopt cause they can provide a natural family environment for these kids

You need both a dad and a mom thier relationships are different with thier kids with just look at black cammunities thier father's are missing due to incarceration and these kids are not right in the head so kids raised in a gay household will also come out weird in the head

What incredibly ignorant, racist and homophobic post.

 

[shaykh]

I meant healthy because both cousin and marriage with a sister results in retardation in kids it's nature's way of telling you are doing something wrong know infertility is more of a health related issue than a issue of nature telling us to not do something
Yes they can, should have sex
They can adopt cause they can provide a natural family environment for these kids

You need both a dad and a mom thier relationships are different with thier kids with just look at black cammunities thier father's are missing due to incarceration and these kids are not right in the head so kids raised in a gay household will also come out weird in the head

Do you actually have anything other than your own bias and perception when stating kids raised in a gay household will come out weird in the heads?...studies don’t support your position ...

Your point about two parents though is valid...absentee fathers however can also exist within a two parent family...might sound obvious but a stable, nurturing two parent family does indeed lead to better lives for children irregardless of sexual orientation ...

Families were a parent or both are abusive, a parent is absent do lead to more problems on average...and the breakdown of the family is linked to criminality among black males in the US and UK and males in Latin America...

I agree about cousin marriages being problematic especially 1st cousins and the health complications that can arise but I don’t see anyone making a case for this form of relationship ...secular ideals actually oppose this idea while religious opinions don’t ...

 

[Nfc120]

That might have been true a century ago but it is certainly not true anymore. Most white Americans believe in the American identity and no longer consider themselves as immigrants anymore.

So the American identity now is pretty much as strong as the British identity.

I would say that was true even 10 years ago. But the Obama years have changed things significantly, and those changes have vastly accelerated under Trump. Americans are questioning their identity, what it means, and what they want their future identity to be. There is no social fabric that unites Americans anymore, no creed, no ethnicity, no belief system. It’s a result of the great American Experiment, the idea of multiculturalism. It is the first country to commit to this idea at such a scale. This is why there is so much turmoil, and you can do no coherence in a community effort to unite against Covid, as well as racism.

Within this century, America will disintegrate into separate regions, unless they find unity in some other way. I think that we will be able to find that unity unless I’m mistaken. This generation is going to face challenges that the boomers did not, and adversity unites like no other.

 

[Bigboii]

Do you actually have anything other than your own bias and perception when stating kids raised in a gay household will come out weird in the heads?...studies don’t support your position ...

Your point about two parents though is valid...absentee fathers however can also exist within a two parent family...might sound obvious but a stable, nurturing two parent family does indeed lead to better lives for children irregardless of sexual orientation ...

Families were a parent or both are abusive, a parent is absent do lead to more problems on average...and the breakdown of the family is linked to criminality among black males in the US and UK and males in Latin America...

I agree about cousin marriages being problematic especially 1st cousins and the health complications that can arise but I don’t see anyone making a case for this form of relationship ...secular ideals actually oppose this idea while religious opinions don’t ...

Hell yeah it's my biases just like everyone else out there has thier own biases in the world or even you have biases and it shapes you so I am not even going to argue about that

Studies won't give you a perfect picture cause this area is controversial and my point was you need both a female and a male figure in your life so I don't think that the quality of parenting will be equal

Agreed with other stuff My problem is "regardless of sexual orientation" don't you have different relationship with your father than you have with your mother and we need both I don't think that same sex couple can provide that no matter how hard they try it maybe something like single parent problem where we know the quality of parenting will not be the same but it's still better than foster care but should we as society let this happen why are we letting kids go to parents who are comparatively less "fit" than straight couples (just on a human level like the fact that they can only fill in as "father" or a "mother" role they can't provide what as humans for thousands we are used to as a family unit)

 

[Bigboii]

What incredibly ignorant, racist and homophobic post.

Expected response from you

 

[Giannis]

I disagree I'm Muslim but was adopted by an Amish family at a young age, so I'm a lot more conservative in my views and practices.

 

[Bigboii]

I disagree I'm Muslim but was adopted by an Amish family at a young age, so I'm a lot more conservative in my views and practices.

Normal conservative or Amish conservative? lol

 

[moghul]

As a US born Pakistani, I think I can bring some light to the subject. Most muslims in America vote liberal because of the tolerance and acceptance amongst liberals in this country. Progressives also fight for equality, welfare, and an end to criminal warfare and US imperialism. Pluralism has become the name of the game for left wing politics.

Many of our religious teachers are older Pakistanis who have no clue what sort of challenges our generation faces and do not make an effort to identify with our struggles of assimilation or connect with us on any level. In fact, the aunties and uncles who go to mosque regularly are some of the most intolerant people I have ever met. They are equivalent to the evangelical Christians whose narrow mindedness results in bigotry and endless wars in our countries of origin. I do not identify with Islam in this sense of rigidity, punishment, and exclusion.

I pray when I want, i fast when I want, I drink alcohol, smoke weed, and engage in premarital sex. I’m successful in my education, support charitable work, and focus on voting for progressives politicians wherever I can as I believe they’re tenants align with core beliefs of Islam. I believe that rote memorization and ritual has little benefit in my life, yet I identify as a Muslims. My sins are my own and none of anybody else’s concern.

And you still follow cricket, hence you're at Pakpassion, that's good.

The description you have given about the uncles and aunties are true but mainly in certain areas where relatively less educated Pakistani lives, as in Brooklyn and some other places. Its not the case in other areas where Mosque goers Pakistanis are more educated and professional , like the area I live in, NJ suburbs.

 

[Markhor]

This topic has been discussed endlessly. The difference between US Pakistanis and British Pakistanis stem from the patterns of migration. The latter migrated after the Second World War when the UK's manufacturing industries had been bombed into oblivion by Hitler.

There was a dire need of manual labourers to rebuild the country, and they generally came from the less developed, rural and more conservative parts of Pakistan. Whereas the American Pakistanis tend to come from the professional class and urbanised parts of the country where they learn to mix with more diverse groups of people.

The problem many young British Pakistanis have is an identity conflict whereby they've been born and brought up in the West, have been exposed to Western norms and values, and have zero connection with the motherland bar the rare visit every few years, yet were raised in culturally conservative households and are expected to adhere to traditions.

They'll say their "Mashallahs" and "Bismillahs" in front of family and friends, and maintain outwardly conservative views, yet are hooked up with a dozen girls on social media. Therefore these opinion polls don't surprise me.

My attitude, which may be a minority up North where young Brit Paks are generally "wear your faith on your sleeve" folks, has been as long as you're not doing harm to others, live your life how you want and be accountable for your own actions. Imposing your ideology on others as opposed to letting them experience the ups and downs of life never works.

 

[KingKhanWC]

I dont understand why anyone would give the day of light to a social term which is on par with BLM?

Do not entertain tolerance for secualrism; you are feeding ignorance.

OP is a self confessed Zionist and supporter of Israel.

He doesn't care about the so called topic he started but another chance to attack Muslims, cheaply.

You are correct, even a child knows Secularism is a seperation of state and religion. The OP wants to confuse people thinking Muslims in the US are giving up their faith, something Israel would love to happen.

USA demands patriotism, which is why Muslim in the US live their life according to this. Simple as this, nothing to add to this over done and Islamaphobic thread.

 

[shaykh]

OP is a self confessed Zionist and supporter of Israel.

He doesn't care about the so called topic he started but another chance to attack Muslims, cheaply.

You are correct, even a child knows Secularism is a seperation of state and religion. The OP wants to confuse people thinking Muslims in the US are giving up their faith, something Israel would love to happen.

USA demands patriotism, which is why Muslim in the US live their life according to this. Simple as this, nothing to add to this over done and Islamaphobic thread.

Yawn the ad hominem again...

Not surprising ...btw you never did provide a link for BLM being a Zionist plot to overthrow Trump for not invading Iran ...

You got that link ...or is it another example of you being full of it?...

And the same question goes to you about secularism...I posted two links where secular is used as an adjective and also as a comparative...’even a child knows’ isn’t actually a refutation...secular society can refer to separation of religion and state, it can also refer to the religiosity of the people...links I’ve provided for usage...so if a child knows then they are wrong in their knowledge ...

As for me convincing people...I posted the results of a Pew study ...Americans and Brits have given answers for why they feel religiosity is different in the US...

 

[KingKhanWC]

Yawn the ad hominem again...

Not surprising ...btw you never did provide a link for BLM being a Zionist plot to overthrow Trump for not invading Iran ...

You got that link ...or is it another example of you being full of it?...

And the same question goes to you about secularism...I posted two links where secular is used as an adjective and also as a comparative...’even a child knows’ isn’t actually a refutation...secular society can refer to separation of religion and state, it can also refer to the religiosity of the people...links I’ve provided for usage...so if a child knows then they are wrong in their knowledge ...

As for me convincing people...I posted the results of a Pew study ...Americans and Brits have given answers for why they feel religiosity is different in the US...

Ad hominem? Im giving you a compliment(from your persp), as you are a proud Zionist and supporter of Israel and you have also mentioned you are an 'apostate' on this thread. lol You are not an apostate, stop following your Zionist anti-Muslim mates like Robert Spencer and their view of Islam. Believe me no Muslim would care if an Israeli supporter left Islam, good riddance.

Ive explained to you why American Muslims like the libreal version because it's against the extremist right wing party, they only have two choices. The other reason is the US pressures people to show their patriotism, through its celebrations and policies and statements.

You left the faith, so why waste your precious time talking about a religion or people you rejected....oh for the love of Zionism.

An Israeli supporter has no moral standing to ask others anything. lol