Honda halts production in Pakistan, Indus to follow

[Mamoon]

[MENTION=76058]cricketjoshila[/MENTION]

[MENTION=142162]Napa[/MENTION]

He doesn't know about anything really. His defence to any factual criticism of Pakistan Army is that it is a conspiracy theory by enemies of Pakistan. That is the depth of his debates. No wonder he had to lurk for 12 years before deciding to contribute.

You cannot have discussions with someone who is actually trying to argue that India is not far ahead of Pakistan. I stopped taking him seriously after he accused me of being from New Delhi before he got his answer.

 

[cricketjoshila]

[MENTION=76058]cricketjoshila[/MENTION]

[MENTION=142162]Napa[/MENTION]

He doesn't know about anything really. His defence to any factual criticism of Pakistan Army is that it is a conspiracy theory by enemies of Pakistan. That is the depth of his debates. No wonder he had to lurk for 12 years before deciding to contribute.

You cannot have discussions with someone who is actually trying to argue that India is not far ahead of Pakistan. I stopped taking him seriously after he accused me of being from New Delhi before he got his answer.

He has lurked here for 12yrs? Or he has posted here for 12yrs.

Problem with Army shaping the course in any country is that, then it becomes a constant. It will be the welfare of the Army and its goals that will dictate the course of the country.

No votes. No change in govt will change that.

Normally, in a democracy, if a govt is not liked by the people, its changed. The new govt brings new ideas. Here no matter whivh govt comes, there may not be much change as the actual force is still the Army.

 

[AdamM97]

Some Liberal Pakistanis under-appreciate the army. The army needs to be strong and in the driving seat since the civil govt of Pakistan has always been incompetent.

I have nothing but gratitude for the Pak army for their service to Pakistan. The civil government needs to take responsibilities for their actions and stop blaming the army for their incompetence, the only way we’ll ever see a strong civil government in Pakistan is when it is competent and does it’s job properly. Until then, the army will remain in the driving seat.

 

[AdamM97]

Be competent, stop disrupting order to protect your corruption and have a proactive foreign policy before you blame the army for everything. There is a reason why most Pakistanis trust and like the army more than the civil government.

 

[Mamoon]

He has lurked here for 12yrs? Or he has posted here for 12yrs.

Problem with Army shaping the course in any country is that, then it becomes a constant. It will be the welfare of the Army and its goals that will dictate the course of the country.

No votes. No change in govt will change that.

Normally, in a democracy, if a govt is not liked by the people, its changed. The new govt brings new ideas. Here no matter whivh govt comes, there may not be much change as the actual force is still the Army.

Lurked.

Pakistan’s democracy is a sham because it’s foreign policy is shaped the army. As long as our public don’t realize the truth and keeps its head in the ground, nothing will change.

The army cannot fight the public, and if they become aware of the army propaganda, the army’s influence will wane.

 

[Mamoon]

Be competent, stop disrupting order to protect your corruption and have a proactive foreign policy before you blame the army for everything. There is a reason why most Pakistanis trust and like the army more than the civil government.

The army brought the likes of Nawaz into power and protected his corruption as long as it benefited them. That is the true face of our army.

 

[Napa]

Some day he will realise that posting samethings at different times, doesnot change the fact that TCS alone is more valuable than the entire Karachi Stock Exchange. So our Brit Pakistani friend cannot change that, no matter how many times he tries.

And in terms of value,Pakistani economy is in no ccomparision with the Indian one.

[MENTION=76058]cricketjoshila[/MENTION]

[MENTION=142162]Napa[/MENTION]

He doesn't know about anything really. His defence to any factual criticism of Pakistan Army is that it is a conspiracy theory by enemies of Pakistan. That is the depth of his debates. No wonder he had to lurk for 12 years before deciding to contribute.

You cannot have discussions with someone who is actually trying to argue that India is not far ahead of Pakistan. I stopped taking him seriously after he accused me of being from New Delhi before he got his answer.

The simple point is that Pakistanis and Indians do not have to fight each other, we are more alike than many other people in the world. Fighting with each other only benefits a small section in our populations who use that as a means to stay in power.

Some posters assume that just because I am Indian, I must be saying things that will harm Pakistan. However, if you look at history, no feudal army dominated society has made economic progress. Some countries where the army had political power like Taiwan and South Korea did make economic progress, but there the army left the capitalists alone and stayed out of the economy.

The Pakistani Army/ISI maintains its own reputation and power within the country by keeping the pot with India boiling, by nurturing jihadist groups to attack India. They also arm the Taliban in the expectation it will seize power in Afghanistan. While this causes some damage to India, it also means Westerners view Pakistan as a terrorist state and do not invest in Pakistan. If India can advanced industries, so can Pakistan, the reason they are not there is the environment created by the Army/ISI.

 

[cricketjoshila]

Lurked.

Pakistan’s democracy is a sham because it’s foreign policy is shaped the army. As long as our public don’t realize the truth and keeps its head in the ground, nothing will change.

The army cannot fight the public, and if they become aware of the army propaganda, the army’s influence will wane.

I say he "posted".

Sooner or later Army will try to get rid of IK as well and bring someone else. May be then the masses will realise.

 

[King-Misbah]

I say he "posted".

Sooner or later Army will try to get rid of IK as well and bring someone else. May be then the masses will realise.

Mind your own business. Our country, our army and our rules.

 

[Napa]

Some Liberal Pakistanis under-appreciate the army. The army needs to be strong and in the driving seat since the civil govt of Pakistan has always been incompetent.

It takes many decades of democratic civil government for competent civil government to emerge. India has had a democratic civil government from 1947, but for the first 4 decades they were pretty bad. The government bureaucrats dominated the economy and no modern industries developed. Only recently have we started seeing a culture where the civil government actually cares about the economy as the voters have started paying attention to the government's impact on the economy.

The intermittent civilian governments that Pakistan experiences is not going to produce the culture of good civilian government. Civilian governments in Pakistan cannot be effective if they always have to be looking over their shoulders to see what the Army will do to them.

1) Soon after independence the Army seizes power.
2) 1971, the Army kills a huge number of Bengalis to deny Mujib the PM position.
3) Few years later they hang Mujib's competitor Bhutto
4) Zia drags the country into a war with the Soviet Union.
5) Put NS in the PM position
6) Benazir says the current ISI head is the person they should look at if she is murdered
... the list goes no.

This is not an environment in which a culture of competent civilian government develops. If Pakistanis can figure out what is holding them back they will make progress, otherwise more of the same.

 

[cricketjoshila]

Mind your own business. Our country, our army and our rules.

I will mind my own business, the day pakistanis, including your current PM start minding their business and not talk about India.

 

[AdamM97]

I will mind my own business, the day pakistanis, including your current PM start minding their business and not talk about India.

Indians are way to obsessed with Pakistan. You will rarely find Pakistanis commenting on Indian news websites but go over to Pakistani news websites like DAWN and you’ll see Indians bragging about the smallest things. You guys have an inferiority complex, we don’t.

 

[AdamM97]

The simple point is that Pakistanis and Indians do not have to fight each other, we are more alike than many other people in the world. Fighting with each other only benefits a small section in our populations who use that as a means to stay in power.

Some posters assume that just because I am Indian, I must be saying things that will harm Pakistan. However, if you look at history, no feudal army dominated society has made economic progress. Some countries where the army had political power like Taiwan and South Korea did make economic progress, but there the army left the capitalists alone and stayed out of the economy.

The Pakistani Army/ISI maintains its own reputation and power within the country by keeping the pot with India boiling, by nurturing jihadist groups to attack India. They also arm the Taliban in the expectation it will seize power in Afghanistan. While this causes some damage to India, it also means Westerners view Pakistan as a terrorist state and do not invest in Pakistan. If India can advanced industries, so can Pakistan, the reason they are not there is the environment created by the Army/ISI.

Yeah? And BJP and the Indian army wants peace with Pakistan? Stop blaming the army for the Indo-Pak conflict, you guys aren’t any better.

 

[Napa]

Indians are way to obsessed with Pakistan. You will rarely find Pakistanis commenting on Indian news websites but go over to Pakistani news websites like DAWN and you’ll see Indians bragging about the smallest things. You guys have an inferiority complex, we don’t.

The thousand Indians who comment on Pakistani websites (like PP and Dawn) and youtube are less than 0.0001% of the Indian population.

 

[Napa]

Yeah? And BJP and the Indian army wants peace with Pakistan? Stop blaming the army for the Indo-Pak conflict, you guys aren’t any better.

The Indian Army is subservient to the civilian government, as is proper in a democracy. The difference it has made to the economies of the two countries should be obvious to you. If you don't see it then you will remain stuck in the economic hell-hole you are currently in.

The Pakistani Army/ISI's behavior does enormous damage to Pakistan and small damage to India. However even the small damage to India makes its behavior of concern to us.

 

[Syed1]

The Indian Army is subservient to the civilian government, as is proper in a democracy. The difference it has made to the economies of the two countries should be obvious to you. If you don't see it then you will remain stuck in the economic hell-hole you are currently in.

The Pakistani Army/ISI's behavior does enormous damage to Pakistan and small damage to India. However even the small damage to India makes its behavior of concern to us.

LOL at the Indians coming on here acting like India is some first world country compared to Pakistan.


Since you love using wikipedia so much these are the per capita incomes of every country as listed by IMF, World Bank and UN.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(nominal)_per_capita


As you can clearly see Pakistan and India are within the same spectrum of per capita incomes $1600 vs $2100. This is despite Pakistan suffering from a rouge army as you claim and 15 years of imposed war. So stop talking from your behind and like I said stop shoving your country down our throats on a thread that is purely about Pakistan. If India was doing so well why does it have the most number of citizens falling over each other to leave it? Heck some are even using illegal border crossings in Mexico to enter US and leave behind shining India.


Get a life and keep your insecurities and inferiority complex in check.

 

[RameezRambo_Fan]

So before I begin my next round of eChitrol, I just want everyone to know that [MENTION=142162]Napa[/MENTION] basically decide to repeat his previous nonsense AGAIN, and pretended as if I did not provide any evidence to discount his claims. For those interested in reading what I originally stated, you can refer to that post #67 http://www.pakpassion.net/ppforum/s...istan-Indus-to-follow&p=10428744#post10428744

And let's begin...

<b>Nor was [MENTION=131701]Mamoon[/MENTION] conversing with you when you jumped into the conversation and referred to him (post #25). </b>

I was directly replying to [MENTION=131701]Mamoon[/MENTION] not you. And the funny thing is, he didn't even bother replying to me, probably because he's scared.

No lies from me as you have not provided any data refuting my statements.

Where have I not provided any data? Scroll back up to post #67 (link in opening paragraph) and see for yourself. Each claim I've made is backed with one or two sources.

On the other hand <b>data that I provided refuting your statements like the following make you a liar.</b>

I'm sorry, so is India's Ministry of Commerce's Export Data Bank not a reputable source? I'm confused.

1) "India's exports are what exactly? Precious metals? Iron? Your exports are dominated by natural resources, as is ours." <b>False</b>, data provided to show this is false.

Wrong again. I already provided you a list as per India's Ministry of Commerce Export Data Bank in my previous response to you. It appears you may have missed it. Here it is again.

EXPORT = Value (Million USD)
#1. NATURAL CULTURED STONES, PRE-METALS, JEWELRY = $43,623.16
#2. MINERALS AND PRODUCTS = $32,435.65
#3. VEHICLE PARTS AND ACCESSORIES = $14,950.08
#4. HOUSEHOLD APPLIANCES = $14,100.58
#5. ORGANIC CHEMICALS = $11,688.52
Source - https://commerce-app.gov.in/eidb/
Source - http://www.eximatlasindia.com/export/

2) "I proudly say it, India inherited everything". <b>False</b>, industries like software, pharma etc. did not exist during British times.

Inheriting an industrial economy in 1947 gave India a head start. The fact India in 1950 (3 years after independence) was the 6th largest economy proves that. This doesn't take a rocket science to figure out what happened. You inherited an entire semi-industrialized economy from Britain, therein giving you a head start on Pakistan which didn't inherit any industry whatsoever.

I already posted this once before highlighting where British India ranked in terms of economies in the world. Here it is again.

Largest Economies In The World

1870
1. China
2. British India
3. United Kingdom
4. United States
5. Russia

1880
1. China
2. British India
3. United Kingdom
4. United States
5. Russia

1890
1. United States
2. China
3. British India
4. United Kingdom
5. Russia

1900
1. United States
2. China
3. United Kingdom
4. British India
5. Germany

1910
1. United States
2. China
3. Germany
4. British India
5. United Kingdom

1920
1. United States
2. China
3. United Kingdom
4. British India
5. Germany

1930
1. United States
2. China
3. Germany
4. Soviet Union
5. United Kingdom
6. British India

1940
1. United States
2. Soviet Union
3. Germany
4. United Kingdom
5. China
6. British India

Source: https://www.rug.nl/ggdc/historicaldevelopment/maddison/
Source: http://www.ggdc.net/maddison/oriindex.htm

3) "Nigeria has a higher GDP per capita than India, calm down" <b>False</b>, data provided to show this is false.

And again, you're wrong. I already provided you the GDP Per Capita (Nominal) of Nigeria and India. Here it is again.

I'm referring to GDP (nominal) per capita, which is what most people use to rank national economies worldwide.

139 Djibouti $2085
140 São Tomé and Príncipe $2063
141 Nigeria $2049
142 India $2036
143 Kenya $1857
144 Bangladesh $1745
145 Zimbabwe $1712
146 Côte d'Ivoire $1680
147 Kiribati $1641
148 Pakistan $1555
149 Cameroon $1548
150 Cambodia $1509
151 Senegal $1474
152 Zambia $1417

Source: https://www.imf.org/external/pubs/f...82,941,474,446,754,666,698&s=NGDPDPC&grp=0&a=

Surprisingly, Bangladesh has made huge leaps forward...I wouldn't be surprised if they raced ahead of India in the next 2 years. That being said, ranking 142, 144 and 148 is hardly anything to celebrate.

<b>When presented with data showing your claims are false, you simply ignore the data and move on to making the next ridiculous statement. </b>You are the sort of poster Mark Twain advised against arguing with. Let's see if you produce any data to support the above 3 statements?

No, you made the claim, and I debunked it. In response, you had a hissy fit and pretended as if I didn't reply to you. Well, I've written it again for you. Try and read it this time.

Given that <b>Pakistan has an infant mortality rate of 5.2% compared to India's 3.9%,</b> and for <b>Karachi "82% of all the drinking water samples were positive for E.Coli which is a marker of fecal contamination"</b> you should not be discussing the state of Indian hygiene.
https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/rankorder/2091rank.html
https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/4e29/a7c0802458ac5f581ab240553ce19e691ca4.pdf

Literally in the quote above you wrote "When presented with data showing your claims are false, you simply ignore the data and move on to making the next ridiculous statement". What exactly are you doing here? This is called deflection. What does any of this have to do with the the export discussion we were talking about earlier? What's the matter? Bolti band ho chuki hai aab?

Secondly, 3.2% or 5.2% is disgusting any which way you look at it. The fact you're trying to have a d**k measuring contest over deaths of infants is just sad. Having a infant mortality rate of 0.9 or 1.1 is something to gloat about.

India started buying Mig-21s in 1961, and around 290 have crashed. You think shooting down 2 with American made missiles is an achievement?

I'm not sure what I should feel about this? The fact 290 of your fighter jets crashed by themselves, or the fact you pretend having 2 MiGs shot down and a pilot captured somehow doesn't bother you. But hey, you do you.

It is not a random website. It is among the top Google results if you search for "India's top exports" and documents its sources.

So what is India's Ministry of Commerce Export Data Bank then?

<b>What you found contradicts your own statement "Your exports are dominated by natural resources, as is ours. You act like you're exporting machinery to the world." You did not understand that "MINERALS AND PRODUCTS" is mainly refined oil, </b>thanks to the world's largest refinery in Jamnagar. I suppose you believe that Indians inherited that from the British too

Minerals and Products = mined resources = natural

The "NATURAL CULTURED STONES, PRE-METALS, JEWELRY" are mainly diamonds which are cut in Surat. <b>You do not seem to understand the difference between a gross export, and value added. Neither of the first two items you list are at the top in value added terms.</b>

Natural cultured stones, pre-metals, jewellery = mined resources = natural

<b>You fail to understand because you do not know how to do research correctly. </b>The numbers you found were for material goods, not services. India's software exports are projected to be $126 billion in FY 2018, by far larger than any other Indian export.

I do know how to research properly. I used India's Ministry of Commerce Export Data Bank as my source. It's quite evident you either didn't read my reply to you or are so triggered by my reply that you can't seem to make a coherent argument. Hence you're just repeating the claims you made earlier. For me this is simple, I'll just keep using the Ministry of Commerce's Export Data Bank as my source. Not a big deal for me.

Even taking into account that India's population is 6 times larger than Pakistan's, proportionately Pakistan's software exports should have been $126/6 billion = $21 billion, instead you are $1 billion.

Well, again software exports are not even your leading export so I don't understand the huffing and puffing. Second, software exports alone are not indicative of a "healthy economy". There are other ways to make money instead of being cursed out by angry Americans in a call center. That being said, Pakistan's software industry only really began in the mid-2000s. It's a growing industry and if it's not 21 billion so what? The fact it's been growing means it will eventually reach that point one day. That's the whole idea behind a "developing country"...it's developing.

According to you, being less than 5% of where you proportionately should be is "doing just fine", pathetic”. <b>You think "Your exports are dominated by natural resources, as is ours", delusional!</b>

The fact that it's GROWING is what I'm satisfied with. Again, reading comprehension skills would be welcomed here.

<b>Only because you are clueless about economic issues. At $126 billion, Indian IT and ITeS exports are far larger than every other Indian export.</b>

India's Ministry of Commerce Export Data Bank says otherwise.

Again, <b>clueless research,</b> no one with any idea about the economies of South Asia would believe the 3.9% number for a moment. <b>The 3.9% for Pakistan is for people who are employed. The percentage for the entire population is 24.3%.</b>

Let's try this again. I originally wrote:

Population living under $1.90 per day
Pakistan = 3.9%
India = 21.9%
Source: http://data.worldbank.org/indicator/SI.POV.DDAY


The link you gave me says nothing about 24.3% being the entire population. Rather, it states Pakistan's own national definition of poverty would mean 24.3% of the population lives in poverty.

Furthermore, you don't help your own cause because I happened to have searched for India's ADB webpage as well and it states the same:

INDIA
21.9% of the population lives below the national poverty line in 2011.
The proportion of employed population below $1.90 purchasing power parity a day in 2011 is 21.2%.
For every 1,000 babies born in India in 2017, 39 die before their 5th birthday.
Source: https://www.adb.org/countries/india/poverty

PAKISTAN
24.3% of the population lives below the national poverty line in 2015.
The proportion of employed population below $1.90 purchasing power parity a day in 2015 is 3.9%.
For every 1,000 babies born in India in 2017, 75 die before their 5th birthday
Source: https://www.adb.org/countries/pakistan/poverty

No, that is not “what most people use to rank national economies worldwide”. A good economist would not use nominal GDP, which in case of Nigeria swings wildly as its exchange rate gyrates along with oil prices (Oil constitutes 95% of Nigeria's exports). <b>PPP per cap GDP measures actual goods people can buy with their income, which nominal per cap GDP does not. Nominal per cap GDP is so useless, that CIA World Factbook won't even provide that data.</b>

CIA World Factbook means nothing, since most of their statistics are based upon UN, IMF and World Bank data, so I don't understand that last argument you made.

Second, you're wrong again. GDP (nominal) is better than GDP (PPP) and most economists traditionally used it to rank national economies. Of late, a new term called "REAL GDP" is being used, but that's another issue altogether.

Here is a rule of thumb to help grasp the practical differences between GDP Nominal and GDP PPP. A rule of thumb GDP’s PPP and nominal is that PPP is how much of a local good (like real estate, labour, or locally grown produce) a person can buy in their country, and nominal is roughly how much of an internationally traded good (diamonds, DVD players, Snickers bars) a person can buy in their country. Thus, developing countries tend to have a higher (better) PPP than nominal, while developed countries have higher nominal than PPP. You can get dinner for $10 or a DVD player for $100 in the US, or you can get dinner for $2 or a DVD player for $100 in China. If you compare a Chinese person making $20 a day to an American making $150 a day, the Chinese person is slightly poorer in dinners than the American (1/10 of income versus 1/15), but is a lot poorer in DVD players than the American (5x income versus 2/3 of income). See how that works? Nominal and PPP are identical in the US, because USD is used as the benchmark. But in all of the most developed countries except the US, the nominal is higher. Another way to think about this is that, as a country’s citizens get richer and richer, they are more easily able to acquire international goods, but any good that must be provided by others of its own rich citizens, like college education, health care, taxis, etc. is going to get more expensive.

Regardless, Nigeria is ahead of India in terms of GDP per capita. Sorry, just going to have to deal with it.

<b>You made the comparison “Your exports are dominated by natural resources, as is ours”. </b>Now that it has been proven false, you are trying to change the topic. As Mark Twain would say…

I could have sworn you wrote this before once in the same reply to me. Regardless, I have proven you wrong twice now. Please don't make me do it again.

One look at Taiwan, South Korea, Malaysia etc. will reveal the <b>deeply delusional idea that the economies of the developing or newly developed countries are constrained by what existed 70 years ago.</b>

Taiwan, South Korea and Malaysia built themselves up to where they are now. I didn't see any of these three countries being the largest economies in the world in 1870 up until 1950. Did you? Scroll up if you missed it.

<b>Oh, for goodness sake, would you like a biscuit with your tea?</b> I have one called a “clue”. The ingredients are “software, autos, pharma, computers etc. did not exist 70 years ago; there is nothing colonial about modern India; East Asian countries have built their industries on the last 50 to 60 years”

Scroll back up and look at the largest economies in the world before between 1700 and 1950. So the math...and if you still don't get it, I can provide a flowchart for you.

The US legal system is based on the British; China mass produces cars which was first done in the US; post-war Japan’s economy was adopted from the US… I forget, what was your point?

Sorry, wrong again. British and American legal systems had a lot in common up until 1776. After the United States gained its independence, it formed its own common law based upon its own Constitution. Even how arrests are made are different. In America, following an arrest the next step is a grand jury hearing, in which a jury decides whether there is enough evidence for the court to issue an indictment (a formal accusation of a crime) which allows the criminal case to proceed to a full trial. Except in certain cases, the right to a grand jury is guaranteed by the Fifth Amendment to the U.S. Constitution. In Britain, following an arrest, the Crown Prosecution Service brings its evidence before the Magistrates’ Court, where a panel of three judges or district judge issues the indictment. These are just some differences

Other differences include the fact the USA is a presidential system, with the apex of power under a President elected indirectly through an Electoral College, whereas the UK is a parliamentary system, with the Prime Minister holding office and power so long as he or she commands a majority of votes in the House of Commons.

I don't get the point of China's producing cars or Japan's economy being made by the US? Huh? Could you be a little more specific please.

<b>Having actually done my K12 and college in India, I can authoritatively say you are mistaken. </b>Our K12 textbooks were written by NCERT, and our engineering textbooks were written by Americans.

In English...a language from?

More delusions about how economic growth happens. In the real world “Until 1991, when India liberalised its economy, per capita GDP is estimated to have grown by an average of 4.7% per year, compared to an average of 7.5% every year after 1991.”
https://www.hindustantimes.com/indi...ations-here/story-UEIuCPfvjOFE4U3aFHaIYI.html

And yet Nigeria still has a higher GDP per capita. Hmm.

Till at least 1980, the state of industrial development of Pakistan and India were not too different, both of them produced only low quality industrial stuff. Pakistan’s per cap GDP was actually ahead.

And it's not too different today, as I've clearly highlighted above.

Pakistan is stuck in the Indian pre-1991 mode, with the Army and other non-economic forces dominating the economy. India only started making progress when it started reducing government intervention in the economy post-1991.

Cool theory, sadly doesn't fly.

So in addition to the delusion #1 to #3 which I listed before and for which you have not produced any collaborating data, we now have additional delusions from you.

Umm, but I did.

<b>4) “Software exports are not even among India's top exports”.

It's not according to India's Ministry of Commerce Export Data Bank.

5) “Pakistan's software exports have seen an annual increase for the past 9 out of 10 years. I think we're doing just fine.”

A growing industry is a good industry. I fail to understand what's bad about that.

6) “Population living under $1.90 per day: Pakistan = 3.9%; India = 21.9%”</b>

Population living under $1.90 per day
Pakistan = 3.9%
India = 21.9%
Source: http://data.worldbank.org/indicator/SI.POV.DDAY

I have wasted enough time on this. <b>No more replies from me unless I see something intelligent in reply.</b>

Bye. Next time don't start a fight you can't win. Ask your Abhinandan.

 

[AdamM97]

The Indian Army is subservient to the civilian government, as is proper in a democracy. The difference it has made to the economies of the two countries should be obvious to you. If you don't see it then you will remain stuck in the economic hell-hole you are currently in.

The Pakistani Army/ISI's behavior does enormous damage to Pakistan and small damage to India. However even the small damage to India makes its behavior of concern to us.

You didn’t answer my question. You Indians love to blame the Pak Army for it’s hostility towards India yet ignore the hostility towards Pakistan from the Indian civil govt as well as it’s military. It’s time to look in the mirror for once!

Be principled enough to blame wrongs committed on both sides of the border.

As far as the economy is concerned, stop reading propaganda pieces on Swarajya, NDTV, Republic TV or wherever you get your news from. Pakistan’s economy is in troubles because of the civil governments incompetence on the economic front(2004 onwards). And as someone else wrote in this thread, you can’t compare the economy of Pakistan and India. India got a headstart with 3 industrial capitals while we had to build one from scratch(Karachi). You have a larger economy due to your larger population, not because of economic brilliance. Compare yourselves to China, a country more similar to you in terms of population and size.

 

[RameezRambo_Fan]

[MENTION=76058]cricketjoshila[/MENTION]

[MENTION=142162]Napa[/MENTION]

He doesn't know about anything really. His defence to any factual criticism of Pakistan Army is that it is a conspiracy theory by enemies of Pakistan. That is the depth of his debates. No wonder he had to lurk for 12 years before deciding to contribute.

You cannot have discussions with someone who is actually trying to argue that India is not far ahead of Pakistan. I stopped taking him seriously after he accused me of being from New Delhi before he got his answer.

If any of your theories were true, you would have replied to me after I ripped you apart in two separate topics. Of course, you didn't so like I told you before, go sit back down in the corner. You're a waste of bandwidth at this point.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

[MENTION=76058]cricketjoshila[/MENTION]

[MENTION=142162]Napa[/MENTION]

He doesn't know about anything really. His defence to any factual criticism of Pakistan Army is that it is a conspiracy theory by enemies of Pakistan. That is the depth of his debates. No wonder he had to lurk for 12 years before deciding to contribute.

You cannot have discussions with someone who is actually trying to argue that India is not far ahead of Pakistan. I stopped taking him seriously after he accused me of being from New Delhi before he got his answer.

To the average outsider, India isn't far ahead of Pakistan. Nations are judged by the standard of living above all else, and at this point you could look at India and Pakistan and see much the same third world scenario of dirt, lack of hygiene, crappy infrastructure and poor organisation.

I would guess most neutrals would rather live in Dubai or Malaysia than India for those reasons alone.

 

[RameezRambo_Fan]

You didn’t answer my question. You Indians love to blame the Pak Army for it’s hostility towards India yet ignore the hostility towards Pakistan from the Indian civil govt as well as it’s military. It’s time to look in the mirror for once!

Be principled enough to blame wrongs committed on both sides of the border.

As far as the economy is concerned, stop reading propaganda pieces on Swarajya, NDTV, Republic TV or wherever you get your news from. Pakistan’s economy is in troubles because of the civil governments incompetence on the economic front(2004 onwards). And as someone else wrote in this thread, you can’t compare the economy of Pakistan and India. India got a headstart with 3 industrial capitals while we had to build one from scratch(Karachi). You have a larger economy due to your larger population, not because of economic brilliance. Compare yourselves to China, a country more similar to you in terms of population and size.

China is in a league of their own. They've always been a top economy in the world stretching back hundreds of years. China actually built themselves to where they are today, they didn't have the British invade them, build everything for them whilst being occupied for 200 years, only for them to leave after going bankrupt after World War 2.

Rest assured, had Britain not been bankrupted by World War 2, the Union Jack would probably still be flying over Delhi's British built parliament building, and these yobs would still be twidling their thumbs waiting for something to change.

:

 

[Napa]

LOL at the Indians coming on here acting like India is some first world country compared to Pakistan.

Since you love using wikipedia so much these are the per capita incomes of every country as listed by IMF, World Bank and UN.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(nominal)_per_capita

As you can clearly see Pakistan and India are within the same spectrum of per capita incomes $1600 vs $2100.

Per cap income of parts of India that are ethnically similar to Pakistan (Delhi, Punjab, Haryana, Gujrat etc.) are about 2X or more compared to Pakistan's per cap GDP. Maybe not first world, but compared to Pakistan they are doing much much better. That should tell you how much damage your Army/ISI is doing.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Indian_states_and_union_territories_by_GDP_per_capita

This is despite Pakistan suffering from a rouge army as you claim and 15 years of imposed war. So stop talking from your behind and like I said stop shoving your country down our throats on a thread that is purely about Pakistan. If India was doing so well why does it have the most number of citizens falling over each other to leave it? Heck some are even using illegal border crossings in Mexico to enter US and leave behind shining India.
Get a life and keep your insecurities and inferiority complex in check.

Pakistan wasn't dragged into the WoT. Its Army has a long behavior of rogue actions. It chose to start a genocide against half its population to keep its preferred PM in power. Later of course it hanged the preferred PM.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1971_Bangladesh_genocide

Then it thought it would be a great idea to become the base for jihadist groups fighting the Soviets. After the Soviets it created and nurtured the Afgan Taliban who gave Bin Laden.

The list goes on...

 

[AdamM97]

To the average outsider, India isn't far ahead of Pakistan. Nations are judged by the standard of living above all else, and at this point you could look at India and Pakistan and see much the same third world scenario of dirt, lack of hygiene, crappy infrastructure and poor organisation.

I would guess most neutrals would rather live in Dubai or Malaysia than India for those reasons alone.

People will poor understanding of economics will look at GDP(nominal) and think their countries are some first world nations. Sweden has a much smaller GDP compared to India and China yet Indians and Chinese move there in large numbers.

Look at GDP(per capita), Pakistan and India are almost at par with each other, in fact Pakistan used to be ahead until the early 2000s.

 

[Syed1]

Per cap income of parts of India that are ethnically similar to Pakistan (Delhi, Punjab, Haryana, Gujrat etc.) are about 2X or more compared to Pakistan's per cap GDP. That should tell you how much damage your Army/ISI is doing.

Hahah per capita of ethnically similar ) ) ) )


This is what happens when someone graduates from Lovely Professional University )


Stopped reading after that. First educate yourself how economics works and then try and act like an expert.


If going by your ethnically similar theory the economy of US should be divided into Caucasians, African Americans, South Americans, Asians etc etc etc )


Child first improve your level then try and argue.

 

[Napa]

To the average outsider, India isn't far ahead of Pakistan. Nations are judged by the standard of living above all else, and at this point you could look at India and Pakistan and see much the same third world scenario of dirt, lack of hygiene, crappy infrastructure and poor organisation.

I would guess most neutrals would rather live in Dubai or Malaysia than India for those reasons alone.

It is true that "most neutrals would rather live in Dubai or Malaysia than India". Obviously India has a long way to go, but movement is in the right direction.

Leaving aside what the "average outsider" may perceive, a dive into the data shows how very different the economies of Pakistan and India are at the moment.

India's top exports:

Mineral fuels including oil: US$48.3 billion (14.9% of total exports)
Gems, precious metals: $40.1 billion (12.4%)
Machinery including computers: $20.4 billion (6.3%)
Vehicles: $18.2 billion (5.6%)
Organic chemicals: $17.7 billion (5.5%)
Pharmaceuticals: $14.3 billion (4.4%)
Electrical machinery, equipment: $11.8 billion (3.6%)
Iron, steel: $10 billion (3.1%)
Cotton: $8.1 billion (2.5%)
Clothing, accessories (not knit or crochet): $8.1 billion (2.5%)

Pakistan's top exports

Miscellaneous textiles, worn clothing: US$4.1 billion (17.1% of total exports)
Cotton: $3.5 billion (14.9%)
Knit or crochet clothing, accessories: $2.9 billion (12%)
Clothing, accessories (not knit or crochet): $2.6 billion (10.9%)
Cereals: $2.4 billion (9.9%)
Leather/animal gut articles: $662.7 million (2.8%)
Sugar, sugar confectionery: $519 million (2.2%)
Mineral fuels including oil: $499.5 million (2.1%)
Beverages, spirits, vinegar: $453.1 million (1.9%)
Salt, sulphur, stone, cement: $445.4 million (1.9%)

http://www.worldstopexports.com/indias-top-10-exports/
http://www.worldstopexports.com/****...op-10-exports/

Also, India exports about $128 billion of software and software services every year. Pakistan is stuck producing low-tech textiles, while India has developed modern industries.

The inability to develop modern industries is the reason why the PKR is currently as 158 to $1, while INR is at 68 to $1.

I am not saying that India has become some model, it has a long way to go. What I am saying is that Pakistan is far behind in developing modern industries, and the culprit is its political system dominated by the Army. As Pakistan is ethnically similar to India, there is no reason why it can't at least get to India's level.

As an Indian I am interested in the behavior of the Pakistani Army as while it does huge damage to Pakistan, it does also do a bit of damage to India.

 

[RameezRambo_Fan]

Comparing subnational states/provinces to entire countries makes little sense from an economic point of view. It's just a nice way to look at things in layman terms.

California has a higher GDP than all of India. What does that mean?
Some Indian states have larger GDPs than Qatar, Portugal and Iran. What does that mean?

The lengths some Indians go to is just hilarious. Literally 1 million of you are trying to flock to the west every year, and here you are telling us how great you are.

Aasman se neeche aao.

 

[Napa]

Hahah per capita of ethnically similar ) ) ) )


This is what happens when someone graduates from Lovely Professional University )


Stopped reading after that. First educate yourself how economics works and then try and act like an expert.


If going by your ethnically similar theory the economy of US should be divided into Caucasians, African Americans, South Americans, Asians etc etc etc )

Child first improve your level then try and argue.

I have to say that your post makes no sense.

 

[Syed1]

I have to say that your post makes no sense.

That's your entire posting career on PP.

 

[RameezRambo_Fan]

I will mind my own business, the day pakistanis, including your current PM start minding their business and not talk about India.

The irony.

An Indian posting on a Pakistani forum.

Wow.

 

[RameezRambo_Fan]

Indians have been victims of propaganda under Modi's government; there's is a reason why 500M+ are illiterate in India.
Why do you think the likes of him dwell in the comments section of Dawn?
Have mercy on him brother! )

I have mercy on the, trust me. I normally spend time arguing with Pakistanis since I'm not one of these people who think we live in the greatest country in the world. We have a long way to go.

What gives me a chuckle is watching people next door literally in the SAME conditions (if not worse) talking about how great they are. These are people who think airplanes were invented 1 million years ago by "ancient Hindus" (whatever that means)...when you have a Prime Minister in power like that, it's only telling of the rest of the population.

That being said, I like Narinder Modi in power in India. I've maintained from day one, he's the best ISI agent anyone could ask for. Quite literally is ripping that country apart by imposing Hindutva on its population.

Under his tenure he has single handedly:
1. Isolated India's largest minority (Muslims) even further
2. Resurrected the Punjab nationalism
3. Re-ignited anti-Hindi movements in South India (see #StopHindiImposition)
4. Further alienated Jammu & Kashmir with increasing military presence to over 1 million troops

Narinder Modi is the ISI's Manchurian Candidate IMO and I hope his party wins every other elections for the next 10 years. :

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

It is true that "most neutrals would rather live in Dubai or Malaysia than India". Obviously India has a long way to go, but movement is in the right direction.

Leaving aside what the "average outsider" may perceive, a dive into the data shows how very different the economies of Pakistan and India are at the moment.

India's top exports:

Mineral fuels including oil: US$48.3 billion (14.9% of total exports)
Gems, precious metals: $40.1 billion (12.4%)
Machinery including computers: $20.4 billion (6.3%)
Vehicles: $18.2 billion (5.6%)
Organic chemicals: $17.7 billion (5.5%)
Pharmaceuticals: $14.3 billion (4.4%)
Electrical machinery, equipment: $11.8 billion (3.6%)
Iron, steel: $10 billion (3.1%)
Cotton: $8.1 billion (2.5%)
Clothing, accessories (not knit or crochet): $8.1 billion (2.5%)

Pakistan's top exports

Miscellaneous textiles, worn clothing: US$4.1 billion (17.1% of total exports)
Cotton: $3.5 billion (14.9%)
Knit or crochet clothing, accessories: $2.9 billion (12%)
Clothing, accessories (not knit or crochet): $2.6 billion (10.9%)
Cereals: $2.4 billion (9.9%)
Leather/animal gut articles: $662.7 million (2.8%)
Sugar, sugar confectionery: $519 million (2.2%)
Mineral fuels including oil: $499.5 million (2.1%)
Beverages, spirits, vinegar: $453.1 million (1.9%)
Salt, sulphur, stone, cement: $445.4 million (1.9%)

http://www.worldstopexports.com/indias-top-10-exports/
http://www.worldstopexports.com/****...op-10-exports/

Also, India exports about $128 billion of software and software services every year. Pakistan is stuck producing low-tech textiles, while India has developed modern industries.

The inability to develop modern industries is the reason why the PKR is currently as 158 to $1, while INR is at 68 to $1.

I am not saying that India has become some model, it has a long way to go. What I am saying is that Pakistan is far behind in developing modern industries, and the culprit is its political system dominated by the Army. As Pakistan is ethnically similar to India, there is no reason why it can't at least get to India's level.

As an Indian I am interested in the behavior of the Pakistani Army as while it does huge damage to Pakistan, it does also do a bit of damage to India.

Yes, but beyond that wall of stats, both countries still look the same. In fact if anything, India appears more poor in vast swathes of the country. That is my point.

 

[Technics 1210]

I have mercy on the, trust me. I normally spend time arguing with Pakistanis since I'm not one of these people who think we live in the greatest country in the world. We have a long way to go.

What gives me a chuckle is watching people next door literally in the SAME conditions (if not worse) talking about how great they are. These are people who think airplanes were invented 1 million years ago by "ancient Hindus" (whatever that means)...when you have a Prime Minister in power like that, it's only telling of the rest of the population.

That being said, I like Narinder Modi in power in India. I've maintained from day one, he's the best ISI agent anyone could ask for. Quite literally is ripping that country apart by imposing Hindutva on its population.

Under his tenure he has single handedly:
1. Isolated India's largest minority (Muslims) even further
2. Resurrected the Punjab nationalism
3. Re-ignited anti-Hindi movements in South India (see #StopHindiImposition)
4. Further alienated Jammu & Kashmir with increasing military presence to over 1 million troops

Narinder Modi is the ISI's Manchurian Candidate IMO and I hope his party wins every other elections for the next 10 years. :

I agree. Modi is helping Pakistan and the rest of the world in revealing the realities of India.

You are a great new entry to PP! I enjoy reading your brutal yet informative takedowns!

 

[Napa]

Yes, but beyond that wall of stats, both countries still look the same. In fact if anything, India appears more poor in vast swathes of the country. That is my point.

Data gives an accurate picture of the world, appearances from some pictures seen on Western news sources are deceptive.

This thread has become quite annoying. Posters lack civility (not you) and repeat the same thing over and over again, and do not seem to be able to comprehend basic data. I provide data showing whatever they have written is incorrect, and they come back with another batch of data which is either incorrectly interpreted or is irrelevant. Then other members of the Mutual Appreciation Society then jump in and applaud the post with incorrect and irrelevant data. Replying to them is like banging your head against a wall.

India is about to launch Chandrayaan-2, a moon rocket that will have a lunar orbiter, lander and rover, all developed indigenously.. It will be the 4th country to do so. Initially the rover was supposed to be developed by Russia, but when they couldn't deliver, India went ahead and did it themselves. Lots of poor people in India still, but lots of good things are also happening.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chandrayaan-2

No reason why Pakistan cannot get to India's level, the people are not very different. It is well and good to want to be like South Korea, but get to India's level first!

 

[Mamoon]

If any of your theories were true, you would have replied to me after I ripped you apart in two separate topics. Of course, you didn't so like I told you before, go sit back down in the corner. You're a waste of bandwidth at this point.

I don’t have an obsession with having the last word. You cannot to back and forth forever. I leave a discussion when I don’t see any light at the of the tunnel. You are clearly not interested in having a meaningful discussion because you make up your own facts and you are a victim of the pro-PTI and pro-Army propaganda.

 

[Mamoon]

To the average outsider, India isn't far ahead of Pakistan. Nations are judged by the standard of living above all else, and at this point you could look at India and Pakistan and see much the same third world scenario of dirt, lack of hygiene, crappy infrastructure and poor organisation.

I would guess most neutrals would rather live in Dubai or Malaysia than India for those reasons alone.

The opinion of an average outsider doesn’t matter either. People with a good understand of economics and politics understand that there is daylight between the two countries.

 

[Napa]

I don’t have an obsession with having the last word. You cannot to back and forth forever. I leave a discussion when I don’t see any light at the of the tunnel.

Exactly! At some point, keeping on replying to nonsense trying to make them see light definitely becomes a useless waste of time and energy of no benefit to anyone.

 

[Syed1]

Exactly! At some point, keeping on replying to nonsense trying to make them see light definitely becomes a useless waste of time and energy of no benefit to anyone.

So get the hint and take a hike, nobody asked you to poke your nose in a matter which is completely internal to Pakistan.



You run away when are challenged and come up with lame logic to hide your incompetence. Come on child run.

 

[HussainRx8]

The opinion of an average outsider doesn’t matter either. People with a good understand of economics and politics understand that there is daylight between the two countries.

The difference is you do not have a good "understand" of economics. Not even 101.

 

[The_Odd_One]

The opinion of an average outsider doesn’t matter either. People with a good understand of economics and politics understand that there is daylight between the two countries.

India is better at everything by quite some margin, be it education, military, sports, economy, etc. I do not understand why is it so hard for Pakistanis to realize.

 

[Syed1]

India is better at everything by quite some margin, be it education, military, sports, economy, etc. I do not understand why is it so hard for Pakistanis to realize.

Also better at poverty, living conditions (lack off), pollution, access to toilets, access to electricity, infanticide, farmer's suicide, rapes, religious extremism etc etc etc. I can keep going but I do not want to fall to your level of dumbness.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

The opinion of an average outsider doesn’t matter either. People with a good understand of economics and politics understand that there is daylight between the two countries.

Having a good understanding of economics or politics isn't going to mean much to the people who are living in identical conditions to Pakistan as far as living standards are concerned. A mud hut is a mud hut at the end of the day.

 

[The_Odd_One]

Also better at poverty, living conditions (lack off), pollution, access to toilets, access to electricity, infanticide, farmer's suicide, rapes, religious extremism etc etc etc. I can keep going but I do not want to fall to your level of dumbness.

Pakistan does not have any of these problems. I get it.

 

[Syed1]

Pakistan does not have any of these problems. I get it.

Learn to read.

 

[Pakpak]

The irony.

An Indian posting on a Pakistani forum.

Wow.

Joshila has this annoying habit, not only him but many Indians. Who will visit, browse and then sign up on Pakistani platforms....to tell us we're obsessed by them.

 

[Mamoon]

The difference is you do not have a good "understand" of economics. Not even 101.

I think you are right. I need to listen to Imran Khan, Asad Umar the economic genius who was fired in 9 months and perhaps Gen. Bajwa as well, who shared some pearls of wisdom recently after taking the biggest share of pie for himself.

 

[Mamoon]

Having a good understanding of economics or politics isn't going to mean much to the people who are living in identical conditions to Pakistan as far as living standards are concerned. A mud hut is a mud hut at the end of the day.

Correct, but that is something completely different. The economic status of a country is not determined by how the poor people feel about their country. A homeless man in USA doesn’t care about his country’s superpower status either.

 

[cricketjoshila]

Indians are way to obsessed with Pakistan. You will rarely find Pakistanis commenting on Indian news websites but go over to Pakistani news websites like DAWN and you’ll see Indians bragging about the smallest things. You guys have an inferiority complex, we don’t.

Why will we have a inferiority complex? That too about pakistan. Yoy guys may think you are superior, but most Indians certainly dont.

Why is your PM obssessed with making remarks on India? Why is your media obssesed with whats happening in India? On this forum there are countless threads on India.

 

[cricketjoshila]

Also better at poverty, living conditions (lack off), pollution, access to toilets, access to electricity, infanticide, farmer's suicide, rapes, religious extremism etc etc etc. I can keep going but I do not want to fall to your level of dumbness.

India's per capita income is higher than pakistan.

INR is twice in value to PKR.

Indian GDP growth rate is faster.

So electricity situation in Pakistan better than India? [MENTION=131701]Mamoon[/MENTION] can you confirm this?

Coming to extremism. Its laughable that a country where UN sanctioned terrorists roam around freely, where even cricket teams refuse to play due to extremist issues is talking about extremism elsewhere.

I can go on and on and on. But then i dont want to insult millions of ordinary pakistanis who know their country's problem and are working to solve them and not making false claims on a forum.

 

[humzy]

That is true, but they cannot compete with Chinese when it comes to producing quality at low cost. Look at how they are dominating the mobile phone industry. Same will happen in automobiles.

Its called capitalism. Tax the industries with tariffs and bring in other manufacturers outside of china to create more competition. Pakistan will never be a strong automobile manufacturer. You should focus on things you are good at.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Correct, but that is something completely different. The economic status of a country is not determined by how the poor people feel about their country. A homeless man in USA doesn’t care about his country’s superpower status either.

Honestly, when India looks like the USA I will happily agree with you. But it doesn't, it looks like Pakistan.

 

[cricketjoshila]

Honestly, when India looks like the USA I will happily agree with you. But it doesn't, it looks like Pakistan.

India doesnot look like Pakistan. India doesnot look like USA. India looks like India, which is neither US, nor Pakistan.

 

[cricketjoshila]

Its called capitalism. Tax the industries with tariffs and bring in other manufacturers outside of china to create more competition. Pakistan will never be a strong automobile manufacturer. You should focus on things you are good at.

Pakistan has a large number of Japanese automobile makers who have set up shop. Incentivise them to produce and export the spare capacity.

GM stopped selling its cars in India as it could not compete, but now uses the same factory to produce and export cars to latin america.

 

[Mamoon]

Its called capitalism. Tax the industries with tariffs and bring in other manufacturers outside of china to create more competition. Pakistan will never be a strong automobile manufacturer. You should focus on things you are good at.

Pakistan is not good good at any high-tech manufacturing and it is a problem. We have failed to build any competencies in the last 72 years because of military interference. Competition is definitely good and Chinese manufacturers are welcome, but not at the expense of driving Japanese out of the market.

 

[Mamoon]

Honestly, when India looks like the USA I will happily agree with you. But it doesn't, it looks like Pakistan.

Have you been to India? How many cities?

 

[Mamoon]

India's per capita income is higher than pakistan.

INR is twice in value to PKR.

Indian GDP growth rate is faster.

So electricity situation in Pakistan better than India? [MENTION=131701]Mamoon[/MENTION] can you confirm this?

Coming to extremism. Its laughable that a country where UN sanctioned terrorists roam around freely, where even cricket teams refuse to play due to extremist issues is talking about extremism elsewhere.

I can go on and on and on. But then i dont want to insult millions of ordinary pakistanis who know their country's problem and are working to solve them and not making false claims on a forum.

Nawaz Sharif did some very good work to address electricity shortage in his last tenure. Things are much better than before. However, comparing to India once again shows that he doesn’t know his facts. India is the third largest electricity producer after China and USA.

 

[cricketjoshila]

Nawaz Sharif did some very good work to address electricity shortage in his last tenure. Things are much better than before. However, comparing to India once again shows that he doesn’t know his facts. India is the third largest electricity producer after China and USA.

Pakistan will have to soon make a decision, whether it wants to continue on its current path or does it want to follow the example of Japan China and more recently India.

Japan post WW2 decided that rather than being a military power it will be a economic power of such proportions that any attempt to militarily subvert it will send such shockwaves throughout the financial system globally, that other countries will be forced to prevent any such occurence.

China decided in 1980s that it must become a economic power and then use that muscle to expand its military to project its power. They made peace with USA. They broke ICE with India and accepted that status quo and largely peaceful relations help them grow economically.

India in 1990s decided that if it grows exponentially economically, then not only will be able to maintain and increase its military superiority over Pakistan, but also globally influence most decisions in its favour. Today at $3tn India has become a economic power and can now use its financial muscle to keep increasing its military superiority. India too made peace with status quo.

Pakistan too has to decide if it agrees with status quo or not. What are they going to lose by accepting a status quo. Pakistan has more potential economically then most south asian countries. But being in a constant state of aggression with its neighbours and a economic and foreign policy designed to cater to that aggression doesnot help its economy.
[MENTION=131701]Mamoon[/MENTION]
[MENTION=142162]Napa[/MENTION]

 

[Mamoon]

Pakistan will have to soon make a decision, whether it wants to continue on its current path or does it want to follow the example of Japan China and more recently India.

Japan post WW2 decided that rather than being a military power it will be a economic power of such proportions that any attempt to militarily subvert it will send such shockwaves throughout the financial system globally, that other countries will be forced to prevent any such occurence.

China decided in 1980s that it must become a economic power and then use that muscle to expand its military to project its power. They made peace with USA. They broke ICE with India and accepted that status quo and largely peaceful relations help them grow economically.

India in 1990s decided that if it grows exponentially economically, then not only will be able to maintain and increase its military superiority over Pakistan, but also globally influence most decisions in its favour. Today at $3tn India has become a economic power and can now use its financial muscle to keep increasing its military superiority. India too made peace with status quo.

Pakistan too has to decide if it agrees with status quo or not. What are they going to lose by accepting a status quo. Pakistan has more potential economically then most south asian countries. But being in a constant state of aggression with its neighbours and a economic and foreign policy designed to cater to that aggression doesnot help its economy.

[MENTION=131701]Mamoon[/MENTION]
[MENTION=142162]Napa[/MENTION]

The biggest asset for any country is its human capital, and Pakistan has enormous potential on that front. However, to utilize its potential, Pakistan needs to get the army out of the economy and let the democratically elected governments to shape the foreign policy.

 

[Napa]

Pakistan will have to soon make a decision, whether it wants to continue on its current path or does it want to follow the example of Japan China and more recently India.

Japan post WW2 decided that rather than being a military power it will be a economic power of such proportions that any attempt to militarily subvert it will send such shockwaves throughout the financial system globally, that other countries will be forced to prevent any such occurence.

China decided in 1980s that it must become a economic power and then use that muscle to expand its military to project its power. They made peace with USA. They broke ICE with India and accepted that status quo and largely peaceful relations help them grow economically.

India in 1990s decided that if it grows exponentially economically, then not only will be able to maintain and increase its military superiority over Pakistan, but also globally influence most decisions in its favour. Today at $3tn India has become a economic power and can now use its financial muscle to keep increasing its military superiority. India too made peace with status quo.

Pakistan too has to decide if it agrees with status quo or not. What are they going to lose by accepting a status quo. Pakistan has more potential economically then most south asian countries. But being in a constant state of aggression with its neighbours and a economic and foreign policy designed to cater to that aggression doesnot help its economy.

[MENTION=131701]Mamoon[/MENTION]
[MENTION=142162]Napa[/MENTION]

Yes, it is true that economic development needs peace and if Pakistan wants to advance economically it has to shed its image of being a base for terrorists. The majority of employees of leading multinationals like IBM, Accenture etc. now have the majority of their employees in India. Pakistan could also have made similar progress, but no Western firm in its right mind will do so when Bin Laden is found living safely in the vicinity of a Pakistani Army base.

The problem with the Pakistani Army/ISI is that they are oversmart. They believe they can keep arming the Taliban and the Haqqani network which kills US soldiers and the US is too stupid to retaliate.

Unless the Pakistani civilians realize what is holding their country back, no progress will be made. Reading some of the Pakistani posters here, I am not too optimistic about their ability to understand how the world works. Most have left Pakistan and sit abroad and assure everyone that Pakistan is headed for a golden future under the Army puppet IK's premiership.

The biggest asset for any country is its human capital, and Pakistan has enormous potential on that front. However, to utilize its potential, Pakistan needs to get the army out of the economy and let the democratically elected governments to shape the foreign policy.

Like Indians, Pakistanis can also produce the very best businessmen, doctors, managers, professors etc. However the nurturing of jihadi outfits to wage the proxy war against India has badly screwed the culture. Especially for the sake of Pakistanis like you, I hope the situation improves.

I have definitely said what I want on this subject and will not be responding to juvenile troll posts.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Have you been to India? How many cities?

I get my impression of India from tv shows. The latest pictures I saw were from Australian chef Sarah Todd who opened restaurants in two locations in India. The surrounding areas looked like a rubbish dump.It was definitely third world standard of life.

 

[Abdullah719]

Pak Suzuki has no plans to cut production

KARACHI: As two leading Japanese vehicle assemblers are in quandary, Pak Suzuki Motor Company (PSMC) has taken its parts suppliers into confidence by assuring them that it will neither cut production nor resort to plant shutdown in weekdays in July-December.

In a suppliers’ coordination meeting held at a local hotel on Wednesday, the management of PSMC shared their production plans for July-December.

Some vendors who attended the meeting said the company would produce over 76,000 units in the second half of current year, compared to 60,000 unites rolled out in the first.

The management had assured vendors that the production targets of 2019 are same as those fixed at the start of year. It also said there is no need to worry as the company has got a big opportunity to fill the vacuum of used small cars whose imports had been curbed by the government through various measures from January onwards.

Vendors said PSMC had the advantage of making low-priced cars on which the federal excise duty (FED) imposed in budget 2019-20 is also low compared to high end models being produced by Indus Motor Company and Honda Atlas Cars Pakistan (HACP) where the impact of FED is higher.

“We are happy that PSMC has given positive production outlook for July-December besides showing commitment to achieve production target of 2019,” vendors said adding the company’s management has also asked them to jointly work on further localisation of parts as well as production of hi-tech parts for various models.

Contrary to this, IMC has revised its assembly plan on July 10 for all its vehicles and would now assemble 3,521 units in July, instead of 5,061 as earlier planned on July 3.

In terms of overall units, Corolla’s production would drop to 2,890, from 4,430 in the current month.

A Toyota vendor, on condition of anonymity, said the company would make total 3,850 units instead of 5,307 for August. Corolla’s production is estimated at 3,320 instead of 4,650 units.

Meanwhile, IMC aims assembly of 4,101 units in September as against 4,818 out of which Corolla production is planned at 3,500 versus 4,217 units.

The company plans to roll out 4,101 units in September as against the initial plan of 4,818 while Corolla volume would sink to 3,500, from 4,217. Similarly, October target has been revised downward to 4,320, from 5,990 of which the expected Corolla production is down to 3,700, from 5,298 units.

Meanwhile, an authorised dealer of Toyota said only one to two vehicles are being booked on a daily basis as against five to six vehicles in previous months. “The situation is almost the same in other Toyota showrooms,” he claimed.

Market is also abuzz with news that IMC would roll out Toyota Yaris 1,300cc as a replacement for Corolla XLI and GLI either in the last quarter of 2019 or early next year.

Previously, the company had planned to introduce Toyota Vios but has changed its plan.

Toyota vendors, who asked not to be named, said the parts making for Yaris has already commenced. They said they would supply parts to IMC hopefully by November and December so that Yaris could come out from the assembly plant either by January or February 2020.

Another vendor, asking not to be named, also confirmed to Dawn regarding the rolling out of Yaris either by end of this year or early 2020 with no change in plan yet despite a turbulent period in terms of sales started from July. “Vendors have already started parts development of Yaris,” he said.

However, when contacted, IMC CEO Ali Asghar Jamali declined to comment on the matter.

Increase in FED, multiple price shocks on account of rupee depreciation, additional customs duty on import of parts, high interest rates and soaring petroleum prices had adversely hit HACP and IMC.

HACP had closed down production from July 12-21 amid slowdown in fresh orders and depressed sales on account of meteoric rise in prices.

https://www.dawn.com/news/1494758/pak-suzuki-has-no-plans-to-cut-production

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

Hilarious to see [MENTION=131701]Mamoon[/MENTION] triggering so many Pakistanis while being perfectly calm.

Well supported by [MENTION=142162]Napa[/MENTION] and [MENTION=76058]cricketjoshila[/MENTION]

---

Not sure why debates cant be civil.

One can get why Pakistanis support army. It is one of the few well run institutions in the country. But at the same time, its negative impact is also there for all to see.

 

[blackanhyellow]

Hilarious to see [MENTION=131701]Mamoon[/MENTION] triggering so many Pakistanis while being perfectly calm.

Well supported by [MENTION=142162]Napa[/MENTION] and [MENTION=76058]cricketjoshila[/MENTION]

---

Not sure why debates cant be civil.

One can get why Pakistanis support army. It is one of the few well run institutions in the country. But at the same time, its negative impact is also there for all to see.

It's the same way in india, when you have views countering the standard narrative, people call then ghaddars, go to pakistan, etc... but the difference is those people still say they love their country

Mamoon hates every fiber of Pakistan. He says he is only deciding to stay in pakistan because of his family and his wealth. Ironic, he hates the country that made him so wealthy.

He seems like a genuine guy, I hope he finds a way to transfer his wealth abroad and move away so he can find some happiness in life.

I moved away, not because I hated Pakistan, but because I had no wealth and wanted to raise my standard of living. If I had namoons wealth I would have stayed in Pakistan but difference is I would never be able to hate it.

He gets on a lot of people's nerves, I think he enjoys trolling people, but I also think he genuinely wishes he was born in india or any other country.

Good luck to him in life.

 

[cricketjoshila]

Hilarious to see [MENTION=131701]Mamoon[/MENTION] triggering so many Pakistanis while being perfectly calm.

Well supported by [MENTION=142162]Napa[/MENTION] and [MENTION=76058]cricketjoshila[/MENTION]

---

Not sure why debates cant be civil.

One can get why Pakistanis support army. It is one of the few well run institutions in the country. But at the same time, its negative impact is also there for all to see.

You evil madraasi, you putting a poor bangali trouble.

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

You evil madraasi, you putting a poor bangali trouble.

Hahaha.

Doing what little I can.

It's the same way in india, when you have views countering the standard narrative, people call then ghaddars, go to pakistan, etc... but the difference is those people still say they love their country

Mamoon hates every fiber of Pakistan. He says he is only deciding to stay in pakistan because of his family and his wealth. Ironic, he hates the country that made him so wealthy.

He seems like a genuine guy, I hope he finds a way to transfer his wealth abroad and move away so he can find some happiness in life.

I moved away, not because I hated Pakistan, but because I had no wealth and wanted to raise my standard of living. If I had namoons wealth I would have stayed in Pakistan but difference is I would never be able to hate it.

He gets on a lot of people's nerves, I think he enjoys trolling people, but I also think he genuinely wishes he was born in india or any other country.

Good luck to him in life.

I get u bhai.

Mamoon defo overdoes things and needlessly annoys Pakistanis at times but he also talks a lot of sense which many can't digest.

Bravest poster I know.

Don't think he hates Pak. Just wants it to improve but seeing the current state of affairs, he has become cynical.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Hilarious to see [MENTION=131701]Mamoon[/MENTION] triggering so many Pakistanis while being perfectly calm.

Well supported by [MENTION=142162]Napa[/MENTION] and [MENTION=76058]cricketjoshila[/MENTION]

---

Not sure why debates cant be civil.

One can get why Pakistanis support army. It is one of the few well run institutions in the country. But at the same time, its negative impact is also there for all to see.

Well a lot of people agree that the military needs to know it's place, but whether Pakistan would have a better standard of life if they were out of the way is debatable. Using India as a yardstick only muddies the water as their standard of living is more or less identical, at present anyway. There are better standards in countries which are less democratic which is another factor that needs looking at.

Nawaz Sharif and politicians of his ilk are a big reason why Pakistan's wealth has been looted. They are like the Indian nawabs who facilitated the transfer of wealth to the British, useful puppet rulers.

 

[Abdullah719]

Honda Atlas Cars’ profit plummets 77%

Earnings of Honda Atlas Cars took a massive hit in the quarter ended June 2019 as profits dived 77% on the back of declining revenues.

The company reported after-tax profit of Rs241.7 million in the quarter ended June 30, 2019 compared to Rs1.05 billion in the same period of previous year, according to a notice sent to the Pakistan Stock Exchange (PSX).

Earnings per share dipped to Rs1.69 in the period under review from Rs7.36 in the previous year.

“The significant decline in earnings was mainly due to a massive 25% year-on-year reduction in revenue,” said Topline Securities’ analyst Hammad Akram. He said the revenues were down as volumetric sales of the company dropped 33% year-on-year. Sales were recorded at Rs17.9 billion in the quarter ended June 2019 compared to Rs23.9 billion in the previous year.

The number of units sold during the quarter came in at 8,346 compared to 12,481 units in the same period of last year.

Over the past quarters, Honda Atlas Cars had hiked prices of different variants in the range of 8-23% due to significant rupee depreciation, 5% advance customs duty on raw material and imposition of federal excise duty, Akram added. Other income plunged 67% to Rs174.9 million due to low income from bank deposits as the company reduced cash balance in its accounts after decline in advance payments from customers.

Meanwhile, operating expenses jumped to Rs739.8 million due to the exchange loss recorded by the company, the analyst said. Finance cost surged to Rs54.4 million from Rs4.4 million in the period under review.

According to Arif Habib Limited, the jump in finance cost in the quarter under review might be an indication of the company resorting to short-term borrowing in the face of declining advances due to low demand.

https://tribune.com.pk/story/2019861/2-honda-atlas-cars-profit-plummets-77/

 

[Abdullah719]

 

[Kaptan]

A 650 cc Alto costs 14 lakhs in Pakistan ?
Vitara 50 lakhss ????
Even if you convert INR to PKR, 14 lakhs is just too much for a substandard model of a substandard car.

 

[big_gamer007]

What are these prices? These are insanely high.

 

[fanofcricket4life]

There is nothing wrong with investment at all. With people like Mamoon, you can't really have a logical debate because his entire agenda is to demoralize. Every single post whether its in regards to economy, cricket etc. is full of fantasy and negative myths.

Pakistan's entire automobile industry was built from foreign investment, it wasn't inherited from a former colonial empire like another country in our region.

All of Pakistan auto manufacturers have a link to a foreign company...such as:

Al-Ghazi Tractors (New Holland)
Al Haj (FAW)
Dewan Farooque Motors (SsangYong)
Ghandhara Isuzu
Ghandhara Nissan (Nissan) (Datsun) (Dongfeng) (JAC) (Renault Trucks)
Hinopak
Honda Atlas
Hyundai Nishat
Indus Motors Company (Toyota) (Daihatsu)
Karakoram Motors (Changan) (Chery) (Dynasty) (Gonow)
Kia Lucky
Master Motors (Changan) (Foton) (Iveco Trucks) (Mitsubishi Fuso) (Yutong)
Millat Tractors (Massey Ferguson)
Pak Suzuki
Sazgar
United Auto Industries
DYL Motorcycles (Yamaha)
Ravi Motorcycles (Piaggio)
United Motorcycles
Yamaha Motor Pakistan

To suggest that Pakistan's auto industry is being "taken over by the Chinese" is dishonest, but that's nothing new from Mamoon. Him and dishonesty go together like a horse and carriage.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automotive_industry_in_Pakistan

Yup. Tata and Mahindra were inherited via British. Makes total sense.

 

[DeadlyYorker]

Yup. Tata and Mahindra were inherited via British. Makes total sense.

He talks about inheritance ,doesnt he know whole pakistan is a gift of inheritance from india?
Btw this one has no ideas of struggles tata has made ,there are litreally documentries on it

 

[Abdullah719]

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Pak Suzuki raises price of Alto VX from Rs 999,000 to Rs 1,135,000 - also increased the price of Alto VXR by Rs 137,000 to Rs 1,238,000 - yaanay 12 lakh iss dabay kay liaye <a href="https://t.co/67ElkDlIoH">pic.twitter.com/67ElkDlIoH</a></p>— omar r quraishi (@omar_quraishi) <a href="https://twitter.com/omar_quraishi/status/1157270149260599297?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">August 2, 2019</a></blockquote>
<script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

 

[MenInG]

KARACHI: Indus Motor Company (IMC), the maker of Toyota vehicles, has decided to shut down all production for the remaining days of September, bringing the total number of “non-production days” (NPDs) to 15 in the month due to continuing fall in demand.

An IMC official, who asked not be named, said the company had already observed eight NPDs in July and 11-12 NPD in August.

He said the federal excise duty (FED) of 2.5-7.5 per cent on various engine capacity cars, sky rocketing prices on account of rupee-dollar parity coupled with additional customs duty on imported parts and raw material and high interest rates had priced most of their vehicles out of the market. For September, “half of the current month is off,” the official said.

Sources said the IMC plant and countrywide dealership network has piled up unsold inventory of over 3,000 vehicles. The plant is running at 50pc capacity in September.

Meanwhile, a Toyota vendor confirmed to Dawn that IMC’s production would remain shut from Sept 20-30.

Toyota Corolla production and sales dropped to 5,308 units and 3,708 units respectively in July-August from 8,804 and 8,770 units in same period last fiscal year, representing a fall of 40 and 57pc respectively.

Toyota Hilux production and sales plunged to 793units and 716 units from 1,383 and units 1,292 units, a drop of 42pc and 44pc respectively. Further, production and sales of Toyota Fortuner came down to 232 units and 162 units from 484 units and 424 units, a drop of 52pc and 62pc respectively.

https://www.dawn.com/news/1506271/indus-motor-shuts-down-plant

 

[Hamza_]

Kashmir band honay ko choro. Idar apni production band hai.

 

[JaDed]

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Pak Suzuki raises price of Alto VX from Rs 999,000 to Rs 1,135,000 - also increased the price of Alto VXR by Rs 137,000 to Rs 1,238,000 - yaanay 12 lakh iss dabay kay liaye <a href="https://t.co/67ElkDlIoH">pic.twitter.com/67ElkDlIoH</a></p>— omar r quraishi (@omar_quraishi) <a href="https://twitter.com/omar_quraishi/status/1157270149260599297?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">August 2, 2019</a></blockquote>
<script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

Wth Alto is so expensive in pak that’s like 5 point something lakhs in India, I remember a Swift for that price .

 

[King-Misbah]

Well, Honda and Toyota nees to stop producing thrash then may be people will buy their products. In a globalised world, Pakistani awam has finally understood the thrash that they were offered for decades. Hopefully, the likes of VW take lead in Pakistani market and there is healthy competition so the general awam can benefit.

 

[cricketjoshila]

How much is a Toyota Fortuner?

 

[Abdullah719]

How much is a Toyota Fortuner?

New costs around 80 lacs.

https://www.pakwheels.com/new-cars/toyota/fortuner/

 

[Pakpak]

Kashmir band honay ko choro. Idar apni production band hai.

What on earth are you babbling on about now. It's down because noone wants to buy their junk. It literally says that in the article. Dense nooras

 

[Greenstorm]

Serves them right. Honda-Toyota-Suzuki monopoly needs to end.