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Honour Killings

maybe the lack of clarity on the issue of adultery is the 'root cause' behind such perceived honour killings?
 
Elan Tedronai said:
oh my,

root causes like?

the unidentfyable need to slit someone's throat for honour?
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lets see

an unforgiving society, holding too tightly to our own traditions, unable to integrate into mainstream britain, unable to come to terms with british liberalism, unable to find a balance between desi values and new world political correctness?
 
in that case they should also be hanged after getting shot.The first step a soldier takes is to learn how to use a gun before battle.

if the morons don't know the law then shame on them
 
elan ~ lashes is the quranic punishment, yes. however, there are some hadith attributed to hazrat umar that call for stoning to death. how authentic are they? i really don't know. but maybe, if this issue really is as black and white as some suggest, you or others can shed a bit more light on the subject?
 
ofcourse gasher

i was just talking of my reference point

it is a problem that is well integrated within desis everywhere

and just punishing the criminals wont rid us of the problem
 
z10 said:
lets see

an unforgiving society, holding too tightly to our own traditions, unable to integrate into mainstream britain, unable to come to terms with british liberalism, unable to find a balance between desi values and new world political correctness?
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all i can say is
thank god this tradition occurs only within the asians and to some extent western arabs.

and if they are unable to integrate within british society, is that the fault of dead girl/boy?

these aren't values.these are evil customs just like indian practice of sati.

My country is a strict conservative muslim country.yet you won't find these cases of honour killings.

The only reason ppl commit honour killings is for as you guessed it honour.

nothing to do with pc culture or such
 
ofcourse it is

what is honour to a man alone?

elan, do u understand the meaning of honour

honour is the measure of a man within his society

his society is therefore pivotal in this discussion on honour killings
 
Gasherbrum said:
elan ~ lashes is the quranic punishment, yes. however, there are some hadith attributed to hazrat umar that call for stoning to death. how authentic are they? i really don't know. but maybe, if this issue really is as black and white as some suggest, you or others can shed a bit more light on the subject?
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why should i bother with hadith?

authentic hadith are ones that agree with quran.

besides you don't need the quran to figure out killing innocents even fornicators is haaram
 
Gasherbrum said:
elan ~ lashes is the quranic punishment, yes. however, there are some hadith attributed to hazrat umar that call for stoning to death. how authentic are they? i really don't know. but maybe, if this issue really is as black and white as some suggest, you or others can shed a bit more light on the subject?
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Lashes is prescribed for somone committing adultary who is un-married. For a married person it is stoning to death.
 
z10 said:
ofcourse it is

what is honour to a man alone?

elan, do u understand the meaning of honour

honour is the measure of a man within his society

his society is therefore pivotal in this discussion on honour killings
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how's one honour tainted if he's daughter slept with someone she loved?

and how in this god damn world is by killing her will he get it back?
 
ok kasoo - please provide references from the quran to support your conclusion. i'm pretty sure you won't find any, unless you attribute it to a lost verse.

elan - the problem is there are many that do bother with those ahadith and conclude that death is the punishment for adultery. see kasoo's quote.
 
Gasherbrum said:
ok kasoo - please provide references from the quran to support your conclusion. i'm pretty sure you won't find any, unless you attribute it to a lost verse.

elan - the problem is there are many that do bother with those ahadith and conclude that death is the punishment for adultery. see kasoo's quote.
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then it's their fault
 
Elan Tedronai said:
how's one honour tainted if he's daughter slept with someone she loved?

and how in this god damn world is by killing her will he get it back?
Click to expand...


honour is tainted because lack of hearsay and reputation are essential to survive in a desi society

and because we dont mix with others

we are stuck together and a lot of hearsay occurs

however, honour doesnt return by killing her, but that is what these people beleive and that is what needs to be changed

their beliefs need to be cahnged and that can only change with empathy and understanding, as ive said all along
 
elan - but their fault leads to the death of innocents. does it not then become the responsibility of muslim legislators to provide us with a little more clarity?

and don't kid yourself if you think this is an asian problem. a woman in nigeria was to be stoned to death under 'Islamic law'.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/2116540.stm
 
however the stoning to death can only occur with adultery between married people

and the conditions are that there must be 4 male witnesses who see the actual act of intercourse and all must not have any relation to either of the accused
 
Gasherbrum said:
z10 - same rules apply, my friend. the Quranic verse for reference, please.
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mere bhai i was taught this in aalim classes

i will find reference for u tho :D
 
z10 said:
honour is tainted because lack of hearsay and reputation are essential to survive in a desi society

and because we dont mix with others

we are stuck together and a lot of hearsay occurs

however, honour doesnt return by killing her, but that is what these people beleive and that is what needs to be changed

their beliefs need to be cahnged and that can only change with empathy and understanding, as ive said all along
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well z10,

it seems asians have a weird sense of honour.it anycase the only way to root ir out is tell the high and mighty that there ain't any honour in murder.And who ever does it will pay a high price.Once it is enforced then the no of men sharpening their knives will decrease.
 
Gasherbrum said:
elan - but their fault leads to the death of innocents. does it not then become the responsibility of muslim legislators to provide us with a little more clarity?

and don't kid yourself if you think this is an asian problem. a woman in nigeria was to be stoned to death under 'Islamic law'.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/2116540.stm
Click to expand...
don't get confused between adultery and and sex before marriage

And yes honour killings is an asian problem

apparently desis have a weird sense of honour as z10 puts it :P
 
Elan Tedronai said:
well z10,

it seems asians have a weird sense of honour.it anycase the only way to root ir out is tell the high and mighty that there ain't any honour in murder.And who ever does it will pay a high price.Once it is enforced then the no of men sharpening their knives will decrease.
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its nice to see that u get my point finally :)
 
oh by the way for all the ppl who need clarification.

there is no mention of stoning in the quran.not a single verse.

Only verse in the quran talking about adultery and lewdness punishments

Noble Verse 24:2 "The woman and the man guilty of adultery or fornication,- flog each of them with a hundred stripes: Let not compassion move you in their case, in a matter prescribed by God, if ye believe in God and the Last Day: and let a party of the Believers witness their punishment."

now why should i care for hadith?
You would think stoning would have been mentioned if it were important.
 
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Elan Tedronai said:
but that ain't empathy.That's explaining wrong from right to ppl who commit such acts. :)
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no no

u dont need to agree with me to understand what im saying :)
 
"Honour Killings
Throughout the world, perhaps as many as 5,000 women and girls a year are murdered by members of their own families, many of them for the "dishonour" of having been raped, often as not by a member of their own extended family. Many forms of communally sanctioned violence against women, such as "honour" killings, are associated with the community's or the family's demand for sexual chastity and virginity.

In Egypt, a father paraded his daughter's severed head through the streets shouting, "I avenged my honour."

Such killings have been reported in Bangladesh, Brazil, Ecuador, Egypt, India, Israel, Italy, Jordan, Morocco, Pakistan, Sweden, Turkey, Uganda and the United Kingdom, according to the report. The report says that "honour" killings tend to be more prevalent in, but are not limited to, countries with a majority Muslim population. It adds, however, that Islamic leaders have condemned the practice and say it has no religious basis."
http://www.afrol.com/Categories/Women/wom003_violence_unfpa.htm

so much for it being an asian only problem. that is besides the point though. the major reason why this practice exists is that those who believe in it find some religious justification for the practice.

adultery does encompass both pre marital as well as extramarital affairs, though the punishment is said to differ.
 
the important point to note there is that it is considered to be an incorrect practice by muslim leaders

i blame culture/ tradition
 
Gasherbrum said:
ok kasoo - please provide references from the quran to support your conclusion. i'm pretty sure you won't find any, unless you attribute it to a lost verse.

elan - the problem is there are many that do bother with those ahadith and conclude that death is the punishment for adultery. see kasoo's quote.
Click to expand...

Understanding that this punishment is not the topic, I would anybody who has doubt about the punishment to refer to this link:

http://www.tafheemulquran.org/Tafhim_u/024/surah_all.htm

It is in Urdu. Discusses the issue in detail. Reading this people will get some idea as to what is driving force of this honour killing. One can also understand that people are not authorized to carry out the punishment, but it has to be done by the ruling government.

There is so much in it that I can not explain. If anyone wants a complete insight into the topic read for about 15-20 pages in Urdu. Jump to page 16 for start of explaination of 24:2.
 
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kasoo bhai, tafheem is one thing while quranic verses are another. the quranic verse calls for 100 lashes. this is where the confusion lies and also where this so called practice of honour killing stems from.
as elan mentioned, if any other punishment was ordained by the Almighty, it would have been clearly mentioned. nor would our Prophet contradict what has been revealed by Allah.
 
Gasherbrum said:
kasoo bhai, tafheem is one thing while quranic verses are another. the quranic verse calls for 100 lashes. this is where the confusion lies and also where this so called practice of honour killing stems from.
as elan mentioned, if any other punishment was ordained by the Almighty, it would have been clearly mentioned. nor would our Prophet contradict what has been revealed by Allah.
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why would an extra law contradict the existing law?

i think what is more important to look at in this case is the decision of the four great imams of sunni islam (from my perspective). Namely, imam abu hanifa, imam shafi, imam malik and imam hanbal

these are the four imams that are followed for their understanding and beleifs on the shariah and if u do follow any of them, then it is important to note what the one you follow said on this subject.
 
"why would an extra law contradict the existing law?"

that is exactly what i want to know. when the quran says 100 lashes, where does the stone to death bit come in?
 
Gasherbrum said:
"why would an extra law contradict the existing law?"

that is exactly what i want to know. when the quran says 100 lashes, where does the stone to death bit come in?
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Read my friend read! I do not have time or enough 'guda' in my brain to explain you this.
 
kasoo mere bhai, i have read. not your source entirely, but other similar sources. there are even those that claim some verses were revealed that were subsequently lost. my request is fairly simple i believe.
 
Gasherbrum said:
kasoo mere bhai, i have read. not your source entirely, but other similar sources. there are even those that claim some verses were revealed that were subsequently lost. my request is fairly simple i believe.
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I do not claim any lost verse, not in this matter or any other. I know for sure that there are 2 things that are carried forward for Bible, old testiment. These two things are stoning to death for a married person for adultary. And second is killing a murtid 'Revert'. Punishment of 100 lashes applies to non married person only. Married person was stoned to death not only in times of Prophet Muhammad PBUH but in times of Kaliphs as well. There are very authentic references to that which can not be denied and there is full conceses on it, no 2nd openion. You can ask anyone.
 
so you say these are carry overs from the bible as well as penalties imposed during the rule of the Prophet and the Caliphs, yet the Quran does not subscribe to this form of punishment. true? i don't think the Quranic verse quoted by Elan makes a distinction between married or unmarried.

you must realise i'm not doubting you or the sources. but questions have to come up when there seems to be a contradiction. there are 2nd opinions, kasoo.
 
z10 said:
why would an extra law contradict the existing law?

i think what is more important to look at in this case is the decision of the four great imams of sunni islam (from my perspective). Namely, imam abu hanifa, imam shafi, imam malik and imam hanbal

these are the four imams that are followed for their understanding and beleifs on the shariah and if u do follow any of them, then it is important to note what the one you follow said on this subject.
Click to expand...


i repeat.there ain't any mention of stoning to death in the quran.for fornicators n adulterers.

so.....
 
Gasherbrum said:
so you say these are carry overs from the bible as well as penalties imposed during the rule of the Prophet and the Caliphs, yet the Quran does not subscribe to this form of punishment. true? i don't think the Quranic verse quoted by Elan makes a distinction between married or unmarried.

you must realise i'm not doubting you or the sources. but questions have to come up when there seems to be a contradiction. there are 2nd opinions, kasoo.
Click to expand...

I would like to see those 2nd openions from original sources. There is no contridiction in my mind.

BTW punishment is different for married, un-married, free, slave, muslim, non-muslim, married had sex and married did not had sex! Surprise!!
 
ofcourse stoning is not in the quran

but then is the method of praying namaaz in the quran?
is the prescibed method of hajj in the quran?
are the verses of the azaan in the quran?
not all the shariah is in the quran, therefore i beleive hadith have to be taken into consideration

i repeat that it is important to note that the four imams spent their lives drawing up the shariah...they should not be ignored
 
kasoo the source is in this thread - see post #105 from elan.
I believe there is no other punishment in the Quran for adultery/fornication, but i would like you to prove me wrong.
If there is nothing else in the Quran, then why the multiple forms of punishment? does Islamic jurisprudence discount the Quran in favour of other judgements during the era of the Holy Prophet and the Caliphs?
 
z10 said:
ofcourse stoning is not in the quran

but then is the method of praying namaaz in the quran?
is the prescibed method of hajj in the quran?
are the verses of the azaan in the quran?
not all the shariah is in the quran, therefore i beleive hadith have to be taken into consideration

i repeat that it is important to note that the four imams spent their lives drawing up the shariah...they should not be ignored
Click to expand...


if i am not wrong, namaz is and so is wudu for the most part
the method of hajj no
BUT, if the penalty for normal fornicators is there, why do we have to think that penalty for married wouldn't have been?
 
but z10 - for what is not in the Quran, the holy prophet's example stands out as our guide. however, there is a prescribed punishment in the Quran. why, then, is there a need to complicate the issue?
 
Gasherbrum said:
but z10 - for what is not in the Quran, the holy prophet's example stands out as our guide. however, there is a prescribed punishment in the Quran. why, then, is there a need to complicate the issue?
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we do because otherwise we would have to discount the scholars and God forbid, should we do that
 
:D and therefore, i cannot accept it as a form of punishment.
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Munkir-e-hadis, kaan say pakar kar bahar nikaal doonga!!

Read the link I posted earlier then talk to me.

I am not responsible if people accept or not. I have brought and showed the reference, my job is done!
 
maybe it was simply a cultural practice during the time of the prophet, because the jews and christians were doing it too? maybe once the verse was revealed, the practice was no longer encouraged by the prophet? maybe when the person committing adultery was stoned to death as sanctioned by the prophet, it was before the above verse was revealed?
 
kasoo10 said:
Munkir-e-hadis, kaan say pakar kar bahar nikaal doonga!!

Read the link I posted earlier then talk to me.

I am not responsible if people accept or not. I have brought and showed the reference, my job is done!
Click to expand...


:91:

can you tell me which post contains reference? secondly, if that post doesn't reference Quranic sources, then whooooshhh..... ;)
 
kasoo10 said:
Munkir-e-hadis, kaan say pakar kar bahar nikaal doonga!!

Read the link I posted earlier then talk to me.

I am not responsible if people accept or not. I have brought and showed the reference, my job is done!
Click to expand...


:91:

can you tell me which post contains reference? secondly, if that post doesn't reference Quranic sources, then whooooshhh..... ;)

the Quran tells us about lashing but no, we have to do what the Quran didn't say.
 
i suspected as much

we will bring all the sources in the world but the Source itself. yee-haw...
 
well, shouldn't we take the example of the prophet in how he implemented the law?
 
also, it is important to note chronology, as Gasher states, in the quran

there is a verse in the quran that says do not approach namaz under the influence of alcohol, this was the law then

then, later, another verse was revealed to abstain from all alcohol, as the law was changed
 
im not advocating stoning, nor do i know if stoning is actually mentioned in any hadith at all

i am just saying that the law shouldn't just be discarded when it isnt in the quran

perhaps more research is required before anyone passes a verdict
 
from what i know (and i can't say i know much) the stoning to death really was a carry forward from the bible. would the prophet refer to the bible if the Quran had provided a judgement on the subject?
 
Post # 112 in this thread. I am no going to reply to anyone who does not testify that he has read the reference. First read and then talk.
 
It sounds wierd that the Prophet(SAW) would ask us to kill someone who commits fornication. Does not sound Islamic. 100 lashes does, as it is a punishment, and a painful one, but taking someones life seems drastic.
There are different ways of praying namaz, so I dont think the Quran would talk about that in length. Punishment is something more severe and deserves mention in the Quran, because in the end we will be judged, and I wouldnt want someones murder on my hands because someone commited fornication and I wasnt willing to believe that the Quran was the final verdict.
 
nafajafam said:
It sounds wierd that the Prophet(SAW) would ask us to kill someone who commits fornication. Does not sound Islamic. 100 lashes does, as it is a punishment, and a painful one, but taking someones life seems drastic.
There are different ways of praying namaz, so I dont think the Quran would talk about that in length. Punishment is something more severe and deserves mention in the Quran, because in the end we will be judged, and I wouldnt want someones murder on my hands because someone commited fornication and I wasnt willing to believe that the Quran was the final verdict.
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it is precisely for this reason that scholars have spent their entire lives researching the facts before passing their verdicts

but, here on PP, we prefer to bash scholars rather than be objective
 
z10 said:
it is precisely for this reason that scholars have spent their entire lives researching the facts before passing their verdicts

but, here on PP, we prefer to bash scholars rather than be objective
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with all due apologies, i refuse to accept punishments when the Quran does not support them. If Quran can prescribe punishment for fornicators, why would it not for adultery?
 
with all due apologies, i refuse to accept punishments when the Quran does not support them. If Quran can prescribe punishment for fornicators, why would it not for adultery?
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apology accepted ;)

like i said, have u researched the shariah?
surely, the imams won't be so mistaken, will they?

they must have reasons, i refuse to beleive that an incorrect act would be encouraged from such pious leaders

and until their reasoning is brought to the discussion, disected and proven wrong i feel i am quite justified
 
i have a small qs, why can't the scholars prove their point from the quran, specially on something so drastic as this?

z10, perhaps its time to learn more about quran than scholars, yes?

just read 15-20 of that translation, sorry doesn't hold.
I have read quran and there is no where in it that says kill adulterers specially when there is talk of lashes.

and scholars are wrong a few times ;)
 
ofcourse scholars can be wrong

and i ask you to bring their reasoning to the discussion and prove them wrong :)
 
i have proved it thru the quran, it doesn't mention anywhere in quran that stoning is a form. the onus is now on you because you are saying stoning should be there.
 
z10 said:
it is precisely for this reason that scholars have spent their entire lives researching the facts before passing their verdicts

but, here on PP, we prefer to bash scholars rather than be objective
Click to expand...

Sorry bro, I refuse to follow a scholar's verdict if it contradicts the Quran's or adds to it. Fine, scholars have spent their lives studying Shariah, but it has to be according to what the Quran says. Quran commands not to kill someone and it doesnt sound logical that we can kill someone for commiting a certain sin.
 
z10 said:
ofcourse stoning is not in the quran

but then is the method of praying namaaz in the quran?
is the prescibed method of hajj in the quran?
are the verses of the azaan in the quran?
not all the shariah is in the quran, therefore i beleive hadith have to be taken into consideration

i repeat that it is important to note that the four imams spent their lives drawing up the shariah...they should not be ignored
Click to expand...

err
thats when the sunnah comes in to play.

besides salah is mentioned in the quran


stoning is'nt
 
i have proved it thru the quran, it doesn't mention anywhere in quran that stoning is a form. the onus is now on you because you are saying stoning should be there.
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exactly
 
I will say bring reference from the imam that you follow saying that stoning is not the punishment, or,

CHUBBBAAYYYYY!!!
 
kasoo10 said:
I will say bring reference from the imam that you follow saying that stoning is not the punishment, or,

CHUBBBAAYYYYY!!!
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i don't follow imams.I have a brain for a reason :19:
 
i have proved it thru the quran, it doesn't mention anywhere in quran that stoning is a form. the onus is now on you because you are saying stoning should be there.
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no, i have never said that

my stance is that, stoning is advocated by some of the highest scholars of islam

they must have some justification

let us hear that justification, and perhaps disprove it

and then pass a verdict either way, and ill agree with u :)
 
z10 said:
no, i have never said that

my stance is that, stoning is advocated by some of the highest scholars of islam

they must have some justification

let us hear that justification, and perhaps disprove it

and then pass a verdict either way, and ill agree with u :)
Click to expand...


don't u think if there was any justification the quran would have mentioned it.

could'nt care less what imams think.their opinion don't matter vis a vis the quran
 
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