Somali Pirate
First Class Captain
- Joined
- Jun 1, 2005
- Runs
- 4,761
indeed lashes it is.
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Elan Tedronai said:oh my,
root causes like?
the unidentfyable need to slit someone's throat for honour?
z10 said:lets see
an unforgiving society, holding too tightly to our own traditions, unable to integrate into mainstream britain, unable to come to terms with british liberalism, unable to find a balance between desi values and new world political correctness?
Gasherbrum said:elan ~ lashes is the quranic punishment, yes. however, there are some hadith attributed to hazrat umar that call for stoning to death. how authentic are they? i really don't know. but maybe, if this issue really is as black and white as some suggest, you or others can shed a bit more light on the subject?
Gasherbrum said:elan ~ lashes is the quranic punishment, yes. however, there are some hadith attributed to hazrat umar that call for stoning to death. how authentic are they? i really don't know. but maybe, if this issue really is as black and white as some suggest, you or others can shed a bit more light on the subject?
z10 said:ofcourse it is
what is honour to a man alone?
elan, do u understand the meaning of honour
honour is the measure of a man within his society
his society is therefore pivotal in this discussion on honour killings
Gasherbrum said:ok kasoo - please provide references from the quran to support your conclusion. i'm pretty sure you won't find any, unless you attribute it to a lost verse.
elan - the problem is there are many that do bother with those ahadith and conclude that death is the punishment for adultery. see kasoo's quote.
Elan Tedronai said:how's one honour tainted if he's daughter slept with someone she loved?
and how in this god damn world is by killing her will he get it back?
Gasherbrum said:z10 - same rules apply, my friend. the Quranic verse for reference, please.
z10 said:honour is tainted because lack of hearsay and reputation are essential to survive in a desi society
and because we dont mix with others
we are stuck together and a lot of hearsay occurs
however, honour doesnt return by killing her, but that is what these people beleive and that is what needs to be changed
their beliefs need to be cahnged and that can only change with empathy and understanding, as ive said all along
don't get confused between adultery and and sex before marriageGasherbrum said:elan - but their fault leads to the death of innocents. does it not then become the responsibility of muslim legislators to provide us with a little more clarity?
and don't kid yourself if you think this is an asian problem. a woman in nigeria was to be stoned to death under 'Islamic law'.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/2116540.stm
Elan Tedronai said:well z10,
it seems asians have a weird sense of honour.it anycase the only way to root ir out is tell the high and mighty that there ain't any honour in murder.And who ever does it will pay a high price.Once it is enforced then the no of men sharpening their knives will decrease.
z10 said:its nice to see that u get my point finally![]()
Elan Tedronai said:but that ain't empathy.That's explaining wrong from right to ppl who commit such acts.![]()
Gasherbrum said:ok kasoo - please provide references from the quran to support your conclusion. i'm pretty sure you won't find any, unless you attribute it to a lost verse.
elan - the problem is there are many that do bother with those ahadith and conclude that death is the punishment for adultery. see kasoo's quote.
Gasherbrum said:kasoo bhai, tafheem is one thing while quranic verses are another. the quranic verse calls for 100 lashes. this is where the confusion lies and also where this so called practice of honour killing stems from.
as elan mentioned, if any other punishment was ordained by the Almighty, it would have been clearly mentioned. nor would our Prophet contradict what has been revealed by Allah.
Gasherbrum said:"why would an extra law contradict the existing law?"
that is exactly what i want to know. when the quran says 100 lashes, where does the stone to death bit come in?
Gasherbrum said:kasoo mere bhai, i have read. not your source entirely, but other similar sources. there are even those that claim some verses were revealed that were subsequently lost. my request is fairly simple i believe.
z10 said:why would an extra law contradict the existing law?
i think what is more important to look at in this case is the decision of the four great imams of sunni islam (from my perspective). Namely, imam abu hanifa, imam shafi, imam malik and imam hanbal
these are the four imams that are followed for their understanding and beleifs on the shariah and if u do follow any of them, then it is important to note what the one you follow said on this subject.
Gasherbrum said:so you say these are carry overs from the bible as well as penalties imposed during the rule of the Prophet and the Caliphs, yet the Quran does not subscribe to this form of punishment. true? i don't think the Quranic verse quoted by Elan makes a distinction between married or unmarried.
you must realise i'm not doubting you or the sources. but questions have to come up when there seems to be a contradiction. there are 2nd opinions, kasoo.
elan is right, kasoo, stoning is not in quran
z10 said:ofcourse stoning is not in the quran
but then is the method of praying namaaz in the quran?
is the prescibed method of hajj in the quran?
are the verses of the azaan in the quran?
not all the shariah is in the quran, therefore i beleive hadith have to be taken into consideration
i repeat that it is important to note that the four imams spent their lives drawing up the shariah...they should not be ignored
kasoo10 said:I never said it is! For crying out loud.![]()
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Gasherbrum said:but z10 - for what is not in the Quran, the holy prophet's example stands out as our guide. however, there is a prescribed punishment in the Quran. why, then, is there a need to complicate the issue?
and therefore, i cannot accept it as a form of punishment.
kasoo10 said:Munkir-e-hadis, kaan say pakar kar bahar nikaal doonga!!
Read the link I posted earlier then talk to me.
I am not responsible if people accept or not. I have brought and showed the reference, my job is done!
kasoo10 said:Munkir-e-hadis, kaan say pakar kar bahar nikaal doonga!!
Read the link I posted earlier then talk to me.
I am not responsible if people accept or not. I have brought and showed the reference, my job is done!
nafajafam said:It sounds wierd that the Prophet(SAW) would ask us to kill someone who commits fornication. Does not sound Islamic. 100 lashes does, as it is a punishment, and a painful one, but taking someones life seems drastic.
There are different ways of praying namaz, so I dont think the Quran would talk about that in length. Punishment is something more severe and deserves mention in the Quran, because in the end we will be judged, and I wouldnt want someones murder on my hands because someone commited fornication and I wasnt willing to believe that the Quran was the final verdict.
z10 said:it is precisely for this reason that scholars have spent their entire lives researching the facts before passing their verdicts
but, here on PP, we prefer to bash scholars rather than be objective
with all due apologies, i refuse to accept punishments when the Quran does not support them. If Quran can prescribe punishment for fornicators, why would it not for adultery?
z10 said:it is precisely for this reason that scholars have spent their entire lives researching the facts before passing their verdicts
but, here on PP, we prefer to bash scholars rather than be objective
z10 said:ofcourse stoning is not in the quran
but then is the method of praying namaaz in the quran?
is the prescibed method of hajj in the quran?
are the verses of the azaan in the quran?
not all the shariah is in the quran, therefore i beleive hadith have to be taken into consideration
i repeat that it is important to note that the four imams spent their lives drawing up the shariah...they should not be ignored
i have proved it thru the quran, it doesn't mention anywhere in quran that stoning is a form. the onus is now on you because you are saying stoning should be there.
kasoo10 said:I will say bring reference from the imam that you follow saying that stoning is not the punishment, or,
CHUBBBAAYYYYY!!!
i have proved it thru the quran, it doesn't mention anywhere in quran that stoning is a form. the onus is now on you because you are saying stoning should be there.
Elan Tedronai said:i don't follow imams.I have a brain for a reason![]()
kasoo10 said:Then you deserve even more
SOLID CHHHHHUUUUUUBBBBBBAAAAAAYYYYY!!!!!
z10 said:no, i have never said that
my stance is that, stoning is advocated by some of the highest scholars of islam
they must have some justification
let us hear that justification, and perhaps disprove it
and then pass a verdict either way, and ill agree with u![]()