Honour Killings

Geordie Ahmed · Nov 5, 2005

Raz said:
When you say 'getting to know' i think it should be more than just a few telephone converstions! They need to have time alone together in my view. Like you id rather choose my partner myself but what would you do if your parents didnt approve of your choice of partner?

well a girls partner better run like the wind cos of idiots like these about

BBC-News

Raz · Nov 5, 2005

Geordie Ahmed said:
well a girls partner better run like the wind cos of idiots like these about

BBC-News

Yeah i read that story and to me it is saddening to say the least that her parents resorted to such disgraceful actions known as an honour killing. I think what it made it worse was that she was pregnant as well but because he was a muslim they thought it was ok to kill him. Would they have done anything if he was a white guy? I very much doubt it. Where does it say in Islam that honour killings are acceptable. Those found guilty should be locked up and the key thrown away.

Geordie Ahmed · Nov 5, 2005

Raz said:
Yeah i read that story and to me it is saddening to say the least that her parents resorted to such disgraceful actions known as an honour killing. I think what it made it worse was that she was pregnant as well but because he was a muslim they thought it was ok to kill him. Would they have done anything if he was a white guy? I very much doubt it. Where does it say in Islam that honour killings are acceptable. Those found guilty should be locked up and the key thrown away.

Yeah i find it bizarre that they did it for "honour" - so instead his family honour is protected through murder - vah kya baat hai

Raz · Nov 5, 2005

Geordie Ahmed said:
Yeah i find it bizarre that they did it for "honour" - so instead his family honour is protected through murder - vah kya baat hai

Mind you there was one honour killing a couple of years ago where the father actually killed his own daughter rather than her boyfriend. Remember the case of Heshu Yones?:

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/allnews/page.cfm?objectid=13463587&method=full&siteid=50143

What also worried me is that a lot of these people try to justify their actions through Islamic reasons :20:

Geordie Ahmed · Nov 5, 2005

Raz said:
Mind you there was one honour killing a couple of years ago where the father actually killed his own daughter rather than her boyfriend. Remember the case of Heshu Yones?:

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/allnews/page.cfm?objectid=13463587&method=full&siteid=50143

What also worried me is that a lot of these people try to justify their actions through Islamic reasons

i dont think the community helps to be honest - i mean ppl always say "what will the community think?" i mean *** - you dont live for them, i think more ppl need to condemn these awful acts, sod community shame - it does more damage imo

i mean there was a case here where a disable widow was raped BUT ppl (who were not even related to the rapist or her) tried to prevent her from going to the police cos it puts shame on the community :12:

i mean what twisted ppl are these?

Raz · Nov 5, 2005

Geordie Ahmed said:
i dont think the community helps to be honest - i mean ppl always say "what will the community think?" i mean *** - you dont live for them, i think more ppl need to condemn these awful acts, sod community shame - it does more damage imo

i mean there was a case here where a disable widow was raped BUT ppl (who were not even related to the rapist or her) tried to prevent her from going to the police cos it puts shame on the community i mean what twisted ppl are these?

Thats a very good point and its in everything they do they will think 'What will the community think?' For some parents family honour, worrying about what what other will think of them is more important than their child's happiness and this is especially prevelant in the Asian community. As a result the parent does what he/she think is best for the child when in fact it could well be the worst option available.

Jahangir Khan · Nov 5, 2005

I disagree completely with honour killings but in this case the girl isn't as innocent as is being made out. If she got pregnant, it means she fornicated so she did deviate from Islam. If the guy was a better muslim, he wouldn't have slept with her before marrying her. Ideally, they should have married in secret/eloped although it probably still would have ended in death for one of them.

The father and his two sons were in the wrong for attempting to force a marriage on the girl and then subsequently killing her boyfriend but the girl and her boyfriend were in the wrong for conducting a sexual relationship out of wedlock.

All in all, I'm not sure if the father would have ordered the boyfriend's killing if she had not become pregnant thus maybe if the guy had kept his pants on, he might still be alive.

Raz · Nov 5, 2005

Jahangir Khan said:
I disagree completely with honour killings but in this case the girl isn't as innocent as is being made out. If she got pregnant, it means she fornicated so she did deviate from Islam. If the guy was a better muslim, he wouldn't have slept with her before marrying her. Ideally, they should have married in secret/eloped although it probably still would have ended in death for one of them.

The father and his two sons were in the wrong for attempting to force a marriage on the girl and then subsequently killing her boyfriend but the girl and her boyfriend were in the wrong for conducting a sexual relationship out of wedlock.

All in all, I'm not sure if the father would have ordered the boyfriend's killing if she had not become pregnant thus maybe if the guy had kept his pants on, he might still be alive.

I also am not in favour of fornication (sex outside of marriage) and personally with the help of Allah would never indulge in it and believe it should not be encouraged at all.

All i can say is that maybe their Iman was weak and thats why they did what they did. Mind you its more common among young muslims these days especially in the UK than most people think it is.

Geordie Ahmed · Nov 5, 2005

Jahangir Khan said:
I disagree completely with honour killings but in this case the girl isn't as innocent as is being made out. If she got pregnant, it means she fornicated so she did deviate from Islam. If the guy was a better muslim, he wouldn't have slept with her before marrying her. Ideally, they should have married in secret/eloped although it probably still would have ended in death for one of them.

The father and his two sons were in the wrong for attempting to force a marriage on the girl and then subsequently killing her boyfriend but the girl and her boyfriend were in the wrong for conducting a sexual relationship out of wedlock.

All in all, I'm not sure if the father would have ordered the boyfriend's killing if she had not become pregnant thus maybe if the guy had kept his pants on, he might still be alive.

I agree that what they did was against Islam BUT that is an issue with the individuals and god - maybe if the girls father wasnt backwards they would have got married - a lot of ppl keep relationships hidden and end up commiting sin knowing how narrow minded asian muslims are

z10 · Nov 5, 2005

clearly the word 'ghairat' doesnt mean much to people here

Raz · Nov 5, 2005

z10 said:
clearly the word 'ghairat' doesnt mean much to people here

Actually thats new to me. What is that? Modesty? Shame?

z10 · Nov 5, 2005

Raz said:
Actually thats new to me. What is that? Modesty? Shame?

it means honour, loosely translated

Raz · Nov 5, 2005

z10 said:
it means honour, loosely translated

Actually i have heard that before! I just couldnt remember what it meant.

Somali Pirate · Nov 5, 2005

well the thing is the girl and the boy can have sex with each other if they want to.Sin yes but that does'nt give the right to murder or kill someone like honour killings.It's their choice and right

Where's the honour in murder?

as for incest well marrying your cousin is not incest in islam.And there are 7 types of (related)ppl you cannot marry in islam as well

And marrying your cousin is not among the list.Everyone does it as well.The asians the africans the europeans sometime back,even the chinese and far east inhabitants

having said all that with all the potential risks involved it's best not to marry cousins.Unless ofcourse you want to screen your children while they are in the mother's womb and check for diseases.

z10 · Nov 5, 2005

Elan Tedronai said:
Where's the honour in murder?

no, its the loss of honour in having a daughter who is pregnant before marriage

you have to try and understand the situation these people are in

we, as a community, generally, keep to ourselves and find it hard to segregate, we tend to stick to tradition too tightly and we tend to put a lot of stock into hearsay.

Now imagine, if u live in this kind of society and your daughter has commited fornication, can you bear for the rest of the society to find out? you know hearsay travels fast and you know you wont be able to leave the community, so what do you do?

And once word gets out and all the aunties are talking about it, you find the shame unbearable, literally, in a society which prides itself on modesty and shame and honour and dignity, once this happens there is a outburst of, almost, animal rage and murder is committed. Our society is unforgiving to the shameless, even though most are in private, and so to try and regain your honour you will attempt to break the relationship that your daughter is in, and attempt to save face.

It is a whole lot of rubbish to most, but it is a circle we are embroiled in, our societal values no longer seem appropriate to people brought up on a diet of fast cars and plastic blondes, but try and console a father who has to contend with a loose moralled daughter and then speak of freedom in society.

It is easy to sympathise with the sinners, how about some sympathy for the bearers of the consequence?

Raz · Nov 5, 2005

z10 said:
no, its the loss of honour in having a daughter who is pregnant before marriage

you have to try and understand the situation these people are in

we, as a community, generally, keep to ourselves and find it hard to segregate, we tend to stick to tradition too tightly and we tend to put a lot of stock into hearsay.

Now imagine, if u live in this kind of society and your daughter has commited fornication, can you bear for the rest of the society to find out? you know hearsay travels fast and you know you wont be able to leave the community, so what do you do?

And once word gets out and all the aunties are talking about it, you find the shame unbearable, literally, in a society which prides itself on modesty and shame and honour and dignity, once this happens there is a outburst of, almost, animal rage and murder is committed. Our society is unforgiving to the shameless, even though most are in private, and so to try and regain your honour you will attempt to break the relationship that your daughter is in, and attempt to save face.

It is a whole lot of rubbish to most, but it is a circle we are embroiled in, our societal values no longer seem appropriate to people brought up on a diet of fast cars and plastic blondes, but try and console a father who has to contend with a loose moralled daughter and then speak of freedom in society.

It is easy to sympathise with the sinners, how about some sympathy for the bearers of the consequence?

Im sorry i have no sympathy whatsoever for people who kill in an attempt to save their honour.

Mercenary · Nov 6, 2005

z10 said:
no, its the loss of honour in having a daughter who is pregnant before marriage

you have to try and understand the situation these people are in

we, as a community, generally, keep to ourselves and find it hard to segregate, we tend to stick to tradition too tightly and we tend to put a lot of stock into hearsay.

Now imagine, if u live in this kind of society and your daughter has commited fornication, can you bear for the rest of the society to find out? you know hearsay travels fast and you know you wont be able to leave the community, so what do you do?

And once word gets out and all the aunties are talking about it, you find the shame unbearable, literally, in a society which prides itself on modesty and shame and honour and dignity, once this happens there is a outburst of, almost, animal rage and murder is committed. Our society is unforgiving to the shameless, even though most are in private, and so to try and regain your honour you will attempt to break the relationship that your daughter is in, and attempt to save face.

It is a whole lot of rubbish to most, but it is a circle we are embroiled in, our societal values no longer seem appropriate to people brought up on a diet of fast cars and plastic blondes, but try and console a father who has to contend with a loose moralled daughter and then speak of freedom in society.

It is easy to sympathise with the sinners, how about some sympathy for the bearers of the consequence?

sorry but that's a complete load of rubbish.

Islam does not allow us to take the law into our own hands and punish people.

Society is only there to 'spread rumours and gossip' but the moment you need some positive help those same people will disappear or try to avoid you.

I think we Pakistani's (the older generation at least) are far too concerned about 'what other people think' and in comparison we couldnt care less what Allah thinks.

Our society is happy to do things that displease Allah (like denying a daughter/son to marry a partner of their choice and even killing those who elope and get married) in favour of things that please society (forcing a son/daughter to marry someone they dont want to marry).

This is a sick, perverted and unislamic aspect of our community that needs to be rooted out and stopped.

Such people should be named and shamed, not given 'hero and martyr status' as they often are.

z10 · Nov 6, 2005

Mercenary said:
sorry but that's a complete load of rubbish.

Islam does not allow us to take the law into our own hands and punish people.

Society is only there to 'spread rumours and gossip' but the moment you need some positive help those same people will disappear or try to avoid you.

I think we Pakistani's (the older generation at least) are far too concerned about 'what other people think' and in comparison we couldnt care less what Allah thinks.

Our society is happy to do things that displease Allah (like denying a daughter/son to marry a partner of their choice and even killing those who elope and get married) in favour of things that please society (forcing a son/daughter to marry someone they dont want to marry).

This is a sick, perverted and unislamic aspect of our community that needs to be rooted out and stopped.

Such people should be named and shamed, not given 'hero and martyr status' as they often are.

whoever said it was correct?

Mercenary · Nov 6, 2005

You said...

z10 said:
no, its the loss of honour in having a daughter who is pregnant before marriage

you have to try and understand the situation these people are in

we, as a community, generally, keep to ourselves and find it hard to segregate, we tend to stick to tradition too tightly and we tend to put a lot of stock into hearsay.

Now imagine, if u live in this kind of society and your daughter has commited fornication, can you bear for the rest of the society to find out? you know hearsay travels fast and you know you wont be able to leave the community, so what do you do?

And once word gets out and all the aunties are talking about it, you find the shame unbearable, literally, in a society which prides itself on modesty and shame and honour and dignity, once this happens there is a outburst of, almost, animal rage and murder is committed. Our society is unforgiving to the shameless, even though most are in private, and so to try and regain your honour you will attempt to break the relationship that your daughter is in, and attempt to save face.

It is a whole lot of rubbish to most, but it is a circle we are embroiled in, our societal values no longer seem appropriate to people brought up on a diet of fast cars and plastic blondes, but try and console a father who has to contend with a loose moralled daughter and then speak of freedom in society.

It is easy to sympathise with the sinners, how about some sympathy for the bearers of the consequence?

...and I basically replied that there is no sympathy for these scum who deny their daughters/sons their rights in Islam to a marriage with a person of their choice and whom try to force their children to marry someone whom the society will aprove of!!

Comprehende now?

entralinks · Nov 6, 2005

Jahangir Khan said:
... thus maybe if the guy had kept his pants on, he might still be alive.

)

)

Mercenary · Nov 6, 2005

) @ entra

trust you to pick half a line out of 3 paragrpahs!!

Lightning · Nov 6, 2005

LOL, look at the two 16 and 19 year olds faces. His father looks like first rate paan masala eating murderer!

entralinks · Nov 6, 2005

No way it was gonna go unnoticed, what a line. :))

)

Toony™® · Nov 6, 2005

obviously, sex b4 marriage is a big sin...

i would like to knw if he was killed bcos he impregnated her or where he came from. Also,did they plan this impregnation so they could force a hand that should of led to marriage.

Obviously,it didnt happen. Father is a waiter - sounds like newish immigrant with old customs...still fresh in the memory. What he dreamt of an arranged marriage from back home...was for selfish reasons!

Somali Pirate · Nov 6, 2005

Mercenary said:
You said...

...and I basically replied that there is no sympathy for these scum who deny their daughters/sons their rights in Islam to a marriage with a person of their choice and whom try to force their children to marry someone whom the society will aprove of!!

Comprehende now?

well said merc,

ppl who commit honour killings should be shot as well.No one has the right to take an innocent life.

Hussain · Nov 6, 2005

there is no honour in honour killings

Nauman · Nov 6, 2005

z10 if they have been dishonoured by having a daughter who is pregnant before marriage then will murdering the boyfriend bring that honour back?

entralinks · Nov 6, 2005

z10 is being misunderstood here. Aren't you z10?

z10 · Nov 6, 2005

yes i am being misunderstood

i never said that it should be allowed or shouldn't be stopped

all i was trying to do was bringing some balance to the discussion

most of us here don't know what it feels like to have a daughter pregnant before marriage, and inshallah most of us dont

i was trying to bring some empathy to the discussion

and nauman, they are dishonoured but you know as well as i do, that in our society unless some drastic action is taken the father 'moon dekhane ke laik nahi rega'

Pathan007 · Nov 6, 2005

z10 said:
yes i am being misunderstood

i never said that it should be allowed or shouldn't be stopped

all i was trying to do was bringing some balance to the discussion

most of us here don't know what it feels like to have a daughter pregnant before marriage, and inshallah most of us dont

i was trying to bring some empathy to the discussion

and nauman, they are dishonoured but you know as well as i do, that in our society unless some drastic action is taken the father 'moon dekhane ke laik nahi rega'

chand

z10 · Nov 6, 2005

alrite u spell it then

Somali Pirate · Nov 6, 2005

z10 said:
yes i am being misunderstood

i never said that it should be allowed or shouldn't be stopped

all i was trying to do was bringing some balance to the discussion

most of us here don't know what it feels like to have a daughter pregnant before marriage, and inshallah most of us dont

i was trying to bring some empathy to the discussion

and nauman, they are dishonoured but you know as well as i do, that in our society unless some drastic action is taken the father 'moon dekhane ke laik nahi rega'

empathy for what?murder?

c'mon z10,

murder is inexcusable.You cannot take innocent lives morally and intellectually.

How can someone kill one's own flesh and blood?Just because they slept with someone?

z10 · Nov 6, 2005

Elan Tedronai said:
empathy for what?murder?

c'mon z10,

murder is inexcusable.You cannot take innocent lives morally and intellectually.

How can someone kill one's own flesh and blood?Just because they slept with someone?

ofcourse it is inexcusable

but you are being very narrow in your viewpoint, perhaps a bit of perspective?

Mercenary · Nov 6, 2005

z10 said:
ofcourse it is inexcusable

but you are being very narrow in your viewpoint, perhaps a bit of perspective?

You are being quite narrow too. What about the children in all this?

Maybe they are in love?

Usually they have asked their parents to let them marry their partner of choice and the parents have denied them.

Why would you have empathy for those denying Muslims their God given rights?

z10 · Nov 6, 2005

Mercenary said:
You are being quite narrow too. What about the children in all this?

Maybe they are in love?

Usually they have asked their parents to let them marry their partner of choice and the parents have denied them.

Why would you have empathy for those denying Muslims their God given rights?

no, there have been many sympathisers and empathisers with the children already in this discussion

im taking that view point for granted because i dont want to repeat it

i was merely pointing out the other side to the discussion

Mercenary · Nov 6, 2005

why should we empathise with those parents so weak in their Iman and humanity that they would sacrifice the legitimate happiness of their children for the sake of a self-serving society?

Parents who are happy to kill their child or the child's partner (often including a sinless unborn baby) in order to get fake approval from a society which will still talk about them behind their backs anyway!!

Such people deserve no sympathy or empathy.

Geordie Ahmed · Nov 6, 2005

I agree with Merc - they deserve no empathy whatsoever

If we sugarcoat the issue and say we empathise then it does jack all - the more we speak out against it and the more we condemn it then maybe just maybe these ppl will think before they commit murder

z10 · Nov 6, 2005

merc - define empathy please

nafajafam · Nov 6, 2005

The better solution would be that parents can be more approving of their children's choices, especially when it comes to choice in partners. Ofcourse it has to be within Islamic Law. When children have the confidence of their parents, such incidents will only be rare. Thats my opinion anyway and I could be wrong.

Oxy · Nov 6, 2005

To me its simple....Asian Muslims (whether abroad or back home) are not fit to suddenly be implementing so called 'Islamic Law'!!!!

If my daughter got pregnant...out of wedlock, I am sure that I would want to kill the guy (maybe even her)...but I couldnt because that would make me guilty of killing (possibly a Muslim) and then that has its own consequences for me.

The 3 guys (the father/2 sons) deserve EVERY day they spend inside-whatever the rights or wrongs of their daughter/sister...she will be answerable ONE DAY.

Raz · Nov 6, 2005

z10 said:
merc - define empathy please

EMPATHY

1) Identification with and understanding of another's situation, feelings, and motives. See Synonyms at pity.
2) The attribution of one's own feelings to an object.

From dictionary.com

Raz · Nov 6, 2005

Oxy™ said:
To me its simple....Asian Muslims (whether abroad or back home) are not fit to suddenly be implementing so called 'Islamic Law'!!!!

If my daughter got pregnant...out of wedlock, I am sure that I would want to kill the guy (maybe even her)...but I couldnt because that would make me guilty of killing (possibly a Muslim) and then that has its own consequences for me.

The 3 guys (the father/2 sons) deserve EVERY day they spend inside-whatever the rights or wrongs of their daughter/sister...she will be answerable ONE DAY.

This is a very good point you make. At the end of the day any wrongs that the boy/girl may have committed, surely they are going to have to answer for them to Allah on the Day of Qayamat. If in Allah's judgement they did do wrong then surely they will recieve the punishment he sees fit.

nafajafam · Nov 6, 2005

Oxy™ said:
To me its simple....Asian Muslims (whether abroad or back home) are not fit to suddenly be implementing so called 'Islamic Law'!!!!

By Islamic Law, I meant that I choose someone within my religion.
But you are right, nothing can be suddenly implemented. it takes time as Merc said earlier.

z10 · Nov 6, 2005

Raz said:
EMPATHY

1) Identification with and understanding of another's situation, feelings, and motives. See Synonyms at pity.
2) The attribution of one's own feelings to an object.

From dictionary.com

thanks raz

now tell me is murder such a lowly crime that the criminals are not even worthy of understanding/ pity ?

Oxy · Nov 6, 2005

...well what I am saying is that Jahil Asians (usually Pak Muslims in Pak or in UK) who cannot read or write; know nothing about Islam and do enough un-Islamic things through their life, suddenly become scholars overnight, are able to condense 1000s of years of teachings and then come to the conclusion = MUST KILL/ACID IN FACE/ GANG RAPE etc

Raz · Nov 6, 2005

z10 said:
thanks raz

now tell me is murder such a lowly crime that the criminals are not even worthy of understanding/ pity ?

Unfortunately yes it is and the perpetrators of such acts warrant no pity or understanding at all. I can see where you are coming from bhai and i understand what you are trying to say but people who commit such vile henious acts im afraid dont deserve any sympathy or empathy.

It will just take one person to do that to show a bit of understanding then these people may think its ok to do it. If it wholeheartedly condemned by everyone then i believe that is the only way these people may learn. Condemnation of the strongest kind has to start coming form the muslim and Asian community particularly from the community leaders and the Imams of the mosques.

z10 · Nov 6, 2005

Raz said:
Unfortunately yes it is and the perpetrators of such acts warrant no pity or understanding at all. I can see where you are coming from bhai and i understand what you are trying to say but people who commit such vile henious acts im afraid dont deserve any sympathy or empathy.

It will just take one person to do that to show a bit of understanding then these people may think its ok to do it. If it wholeheartedly condemned by everyone then i believe that is the only way these people may learn. Condemnation of the strongest kind has to start coming form the muslim and Asian community particularly from the community leaders and the Imams of the mosques.

no, you see i can reverse that argument raz bro

you cannot stop murder, until you understand the murderer

if we continue on this holier than thou path, hand out verdicts without giving the murderers their right to defend themselves, and pretend as if the problem will go away then we are doing absolutely nothing to stop the problem

only when you know of all the arguments/ reasons that the murderer is coming up with as an excuse, empathise with him, and then disprove him will you hold the moral and intellectual upper ground

if u deny these people their right to court then you are commiting as bad a mistake as they did

they may have commited murder, but you are ensuring this practice continues with your blasé attitude

Raz · Nov 7, 2005

z10 said:
no, you see i can reverse that argument raz bro

you cannot stop murder, until you understand the murderer

if we continue on this holier than thou path, hand out verdicts without giving the murderers their right to defend themselves, and pretend as if the problem will go away then we are doing absolutely nothing to stop the problem

only when you know of all the arguments/ reasons that the murderer is coming up with as an excuse, empathise with him, and then disprove him will you hold the moral and intellectual upper ground

if u deny these people their right to court then you are commiting as bad a mistake as they did

they may have commited murder, but you are ensuring this practice continues with your blasé attitude

And you think that by understanding them this practice wont continue? The message that will get sent out is that yeah its ok to kill because people will understand why we did it and so makes it ok.

z10 · Nov 7, 2005

Raz said:
And you think that by understanding them this practice wont continue? The message that will get sent out is that yeah its ok to kill because people will understand why we did it and so makes it ok.

when u understand, u understand why it is wrong and u can show why it is wrong

by acting like a judge and dismissing criminals without giving them the right to speech, u send out a signal of indifference

and sometimes a signal of indifference is far more dangerous than we imagine it to be

Raz · Nov 7, 2005

z10 said:
when u understand, u understand why it is wrong and u can show why it is wrong

by acting like a judge and dismissing criminals without giving them the right to speech, u send out a signal of indifference

and sometimes a signal of indifference is far more dangerous than we imagine it to be

Thats the problem, the criminal will never admit he/she is wrong no matter how much understanding you show. They will always insist they were right in what they did.

z10 · Nov 7, 2005

see, atleast that way they are given a right to say what they want

some here would have murderers hanged

Somali Pirate · Nov 7, 2005

In islam there is only one rule for murderers.

Punishment by death or blood money payed to victim's family and serving prison sentence.Choice is given to victim's family.

It is simple here z10.You kill an innocent you pay the price.No amount of 'understanding' will negate it.

There is nothing to understand here.If ppl are angry about daughter's getting pregnant then action should be taken to resolve the pregnancy issue.Like discussing with the guy's family and where to go from there.Only 3 ppl matter here.The girl,the boy and the baby.

now if you think i can somehow wipe out 'dishonour' by murdering the girl or the boy then you commit 2 sins.Murdering the parent and causing harm to the baby as well.

How can you show your face to God At the day of judgement then?Do you think your God will be bothered about your 'honour'?

At the end of the day murder is murder.Simple basic stuff.You don't need to be newton or albert to figure it out

in_cutter · Nov 7, 2005

Another honour killing, 6yrs ago. We actually knew this family really very well...was shocking news.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/352649.stm

Geordie Ahmed · Nov 7, 2005

Shaf said:
Another honour killing, 6yrs ago. We actually knew this family really very well...was shocking news.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/352649.stm

i think we need to stop calling it honour killing and call it what it is - MURDER

in_cutter · Nov 7, 2005

Geordie Ahmed said:
i think we need to stop calling it honour killing and call it what it is - MURDER

yes agree...cold blooded murderers

z10 · Nov 7, 2005

Elan Tedronai said:
In islam there is only one rule for murderers.

Punishment by death or blood money payed to victim's family and serving prison sentence.Choice is given to victim's family.

It is simple here z10.You kill an innocent you pay the price.No amount of 'understanding' will negate it.

There is nothing to understand here.If ppl are angry about daughter's getting pregnant then action should be taken to resolve the pregnancy issue.Like discussing with the guy's family and where to go from there.Only 3 ppl matter here.The girl,the boy and the baby.

now if you think i can somehow wipe out 'dishonour' by murdering the girl or the boy then you commit 2 sins.Murdering the parent and causing harm to the baby as well.

How can you show your face to God At the day of judgement then?Do you think your God will be bothered about your 'honour'?

At the end of the day murder is murder.Simple basic stuff.You don't need to be newton or albert to figure it out

and when was understanding meant to negate it?

Mercenary · Nov 7, 2005

z10 ur mixing up empathy with psychology!

By empathising with someone you are saying 'yeah i can see why and how someone would be driven to do that, i can see myself doing it'

That's empathy!!

It means you identify with the actions of that person!!

z10 · Nov 7, 2005

no...empathy is an understanding of the motives/ reasons that drive to murder...it is an understanding of the psyche of a murderer

i dont kno why u are seperating the two

Mercenary · Nov 7, 2005

well z10 u seemed to have changed your stance. Initially you wanted sympathy for those murderers who killed their own children or someone their child loves because they have brought shame to them and the murderers would have trouble facing society as a result!

z10 said:
It is easy to sympathise with the sinners, how about some sympathy for the bearers of the consequence?

Empathy only came about after everyone was shocked at that statement!!

z10 · Nov 7, 2005

no i didnt want sympathy, that wasnt my stance at all

i wanted empathy from the start

i only said that to show that the kids arent faultless, there was some provocation

Somali Pirate · Nov 7, 2005

z10 said:
no...empathy is an understanding of the motives/ reasons that drive to murder...it is an understanding of the psyche of a murderer

i dont kno why u are seperating the two

z10,

empathy is to identify with the murderer

Identification with and understanding of another's situation, feelings, and motives.

Now whats there to empathise in criminal behaviour?Do u feel pity for them?sad for them?

the only reason for honour killing is to somehow wipe the 'shame' off and get honour back by shedding innocent blood.

As if God is obsessed with notions of honour and deaths of his creations to achieve it.

Try telling your grand kids 'i killed your mom or dad coz i wanted to cleanse our honour'
Indeed tell any sane person this and see their reaction.

Somali Pirate · Nov 7, 2005

z10 said:
no i didnt want sympathy, that wasnt my stance at all

i wanted empathy from the start

i only said that to show that the kids arent faultless, there was some provocation

faultless?no.But is that provocative enough for murder?Ofcourse it ain't!!

z10 · Nov 7, 2005

elan

if we were to hang every criminal and not investigate motives, feelings there would be no way to stop further crime

crime will always occur, but to be indifferent to the feelings of a murderer is pretending that the problem doesnt exist

alrite, u punish the murderer, publicly

what will that acheive?

do you think that will change the mindset in the long run, a tradition of honour and dignity and shame and modesty that is hundreds of years old?

No, to change it, u must first addresss the problem, identify the problem, work it out, gain the intellectual upper ground and then attack the logic of these people

an appeal to sense will do greater good than an indifferent verdict of death with an holier than thou attitude

Mercenary · Nov 7, 2005

z10 said:
no i didnt want sympathy, that wasnt my stance at all

i wanted empathy from the start

i only said that to show that the kids arent faultless, there was some provocation

Nope you were definitely talking about sympathy.

Your first post in the thread was...

z10 said:
clearly the word 'ghairat' doesnt mean much to people here

...you were shocked at our condemnation of 'ghairat/honour killings' and you thought us to be bheigheirat. Therefore placing yourself as a sympathiser of the killers vs the rest of us ghairat-less sympathisers of the fornicators!!

z10 said:
It is a whole lot of rubbish to most, but it is a circle we are embroiled in, our societal values no longer seem appropriate to people brought up on a diet of fast cars and plastic blondes, but try and console a father who has to contend with a loose moralled daughter and then speak of freedom in society.

You talk about consoling the victim which is sympathy and not empathy! You seem angry at the society rather than the killers who are denying their children their Islamic and human rights to choose their own partner!!

z10 said:
It is easy to sympathise with the sinners, how about some sympathy for the bearers of the consequence?

Here you are openly asking for sympathy for the suppressors of their child's right to choose their partner!

z10 it was only after everyone else found the idea of sympathy for such jahil and backwards murdering scum to be repulsive that you changed your tune to empathy!

Mercenary · Nov 7, 2005

z10 said:
elan

if we were to hang every criminal and not investigate motives, feelings there would be no way to stop further crime

the motives are clear, the father/brother kills the lover or/and their girl in order to save face!

In Islam the punishment for fornicators is lashes and not death!

However the punishment for murder is death (unless pardoned by the family).

Islamically speaking the honour killers are murderers who should be executed and the fornicators must be lashed!!

z10 · Nov 7, 2005

Mercenary said:
You talk about consoling the victim which is sympathy and not empathy! You seem angry at the society rather than the killers who are denying their children their Islamic and human rights to choose their own partner!!

ofcourse there is sympathy for a father, but no sympathy for a killer
not all fathers indulge in honour killing, it was a general comment

Here you are openly asking for sympathy for the suppressors of their child's right to choose their partner!

no, this was another general comment, and i was talking of girls getting pregnant before marriage

parents suppressing rights can only be one of the reasons, the daughter could jsut be loose moralled and that is all contained within the general comment

you cannot take a general comment like that of mine, and apply it to wrong parents, in a general comment either of the two parties can be wrong

z10 it was only after everyone else found the idea of sympathy for such jahil and backwards murdering scum to be repulsive that you changed your tune to empathy!

if u read carefully it says sympathy for 'the bearers of the consequence'

not sympathy for criminals, as i said earlier, there is a difference between the parents who just take this situation and those who indulge in honour killing

and as i said earlier, also, ive always said there should be empathy for the criminals, not sympathy

Somali Pirate · Nov 7, 2005

z10 said:
elan

if we were to hang every criminal and not investigate motives, feelings there would be no way to stop further crime

crime will always occur, but to be indifferent to the feelings of a murderer is pretending that the problem doesnt exist

alrite, u punish the murderer, publicly

what will that acheive?

do you think that will change the mindset in the long run, a tradition of honour and dignity and shame and modesty that is hundreds of years old?

No, to change it, u must first addresss the problem, identify the problem, work it out, gain the intellectual upper ground and then attack the logic of these people

an appeal to sense will do greater good than an indifferent verdict of death with an holier than thou attitude

you still don't get it do.

let's make this simple

Firstly do you believe in killing innocent girls or boys just because they slept with each other?

if no then good.

If yes then you might spend some time understanding your deen first.

end of story.

If i stole a bank will you feel empathy for me?because i was greedy and to lazy to earn money.Would you say 'oh no point in punishing him coz it won't do good in the long run?

killing innocents is INEXCUSABLE.WHATEVER THE REASONS!

The minute you ask yourself 'but the murderer.......

That's when YOU step out of line from deen.No justyfication for murder.Especially for something as pathetic as killing one's own blood for some 'honour'

z10 · Nov 7, 2005

Elan Tedronai said:
you still don't get it do.

let's make this simple

Firstly do you believe in killing innocent girls or boys just because they slept with each other?

if no then good.

If yes then you might spend some time understanding your deen first.

end of story.

If i stole a bank will you feel empathy for me?because i was greedy and to lazy to earn money.Would you say 'oh no point in punishing him coz it won't do good in the long run?

killing innocents is INEXCUSABLE.WHATEVER THE REASONS!

The minute you ask yourself 'but the murderer.......

That's when YOU step out of line from deen.No justyfication for murder.Especially for something as pathetic as killing one's own blood for some 'honour'

i think u dont get it

lets make some things clear

i never said:

there is a justification for murder
killing innocents is excusable (if u do count them to be innocent)
and that they should not be punished

i beleive they should be punished, they have no justification but they do deserve empathy

and please dont try and teach my religion to me

Somali Pirate · Nov 7, 2005

z10 said:
ofcourse there is sympathy for a father, but no sympathy for a killer
not all fathers indulge in honour killing, it was a general comment

no, this was another general comment, and i was talking of girls getting pregnant before marriage

parents suppressing rights can only be one of the reasons, the daughter could jsut be loose moralled and that is all contained within the general comment

you cannot take a general comment like that of mine, and apply it to wrong parents, in a general comment either of the two parties can be wrong

if u read carefully it says sympathy for 'the bearers of the consequence'

not sympathy for criminals, as i said earlier, there is a difference between the parents who just take this situation and those who indulge in honour killing

and as i said earlier, also, ive always said there should be empathy for the criminals, not sympathy

i still don't get it.whats there to empathise in criminal behaviour?

islamic law as merc pointed out said

death to murderers (unless pardoned)and lashes for fornicators

and how on earth can you say some parents suppress rights coz she's is loosely moralled as you put it?

the dad and mom married each other.Was their choice.Same courtesy should be given to children.

Mercenary · Nov 7, 2005

z10, this thread is about honour killings!

Those were not general comments they were in response to posts about honour KILLINGS!

Besides this statement clearly shows the intent behind your comments...

z10 said:
clearly the word 'ghairat' doesnt mean much to people here

...but it seems that now you're no longer saying that.

In which case mission accomplished, whether you're willing to accept that you've changed your opinion or whether you're not is irrelevant to me.

The fact that you have is more important, welcome to sanity!

z10 · Nov 7, 2005

elan,

i said that there are many reasons for a daughter getting pregnant before marriage

one could be parents suppressing rights

the other could be a loos moralled daughter

the parents are not always to blame

Somali Pirate · Nov 7, 2005

i repeat.what's there to empathise?

oh i was thinking of my honour.so i decided to slit my daughter's throat or break the ****** who impregnated her?

what a reason to empathise z10

Somali Pirate · Nov 7, 2005

z10 said:
elan,

i said that there are many reasons for a daughter getting pregnant before marriage

one could be parents suppressing rights

the other could be a loos moralled daughter

the parents are not always to blame

and may be the other is she fell in love with a guy and decided to be with him.

z10 · Nov 7, 2005

Mercenary said:
z10, this thread is about honour killings!

Those were not general comments they were in response to posts about honour KILLINGS!

Besides this statement clearly shows the intent behind your comments...

...but it seems that now you're no longer saying that.

In which case mission accomplished, whether you're willing to accept that you've changed your opinion or whether you're not is irrelevant to me.

The fact that you have is more important, welcome to sanity!

those were general comments about parents having to contend with this, and there is no way u can prove they arent

ive always maintained the same stance, u r trying to read into it and i replied to everything u said

now why dont u reply to everything i said

z10 · Nov 7, 2005

Elan Tedronai said:
and may be the other is she fell in love with a guy and decided to be with him.

whoever said that doesnt count?

z10 · Nov 7, 2005

Elan Tedronai said:
i repeat.what's there to empathise?

oh i was thinking of my honour.so i decided to slit my daughter's throat or break the ****** who impregnated her?

what a reason to empathise z10

ive stated all of the reasons at length throughout this thread

do u not think it important to stop this practice?

i feel the best way to stop it would be to stop the root causes, and this can only be acheived through empathy

Somali Pirate · Nov 7, 2005

z10 said:
whoever said that doesnt count?

no one did.just gave you another reason

Somali Pirate · Nov 7, 2005

z10 said:
ive stated all of the reasons at length throughout this thread

do u not think it important to stop this practice?

i feel the best way to stop it would be to stop the root causes, and this can only be acheived through empathy

oh my,

root causes like?

the unidentfyable need to slit someone's throat for honour?

z10 · Nov 7, 2005

Elan Tedronai said:
no one did.just gave you another reason

cool

Gasherbrum · Nov 7, 2005

so can someone please go over the 'Islamic' punishment for adultery? and not just the 'Quranic' punishment please. the issue may prove to be a little less clear cut than it is made out to be. the Quran orders 100 lashes for adultery. is that really the end of the story?

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