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How do you reconcile the contradiction between liberal left principles and Islamic beliefs?

[MENTION=7774]Robert[/MENTION]

Majid Nawaz set up Quillium in order to make money, nothing else. He was given a lot of money by the government as part of a deal which ensured he would parrot their propaganda. You're not the only one being fooled by him. He is NOT a pratcising Muslim, he doesn't give a damn about terrorism or Islamaphobia, he spends most of his time drinking and checking out strippers. 99% of Muslims in the UK see him as a joke, you should think why?

I don't care about the drinking and strippers. I know Muslims who like a drink and chase girls. Mrs Robert says every Muslim she knows drinks. It's fine by me.

What I have noticed is that Mr Nawaz is effective in shutting down Islamophobia among some white Christians, Americans in particular. He knocks a crack in their monolithic wall of generalisation and misunderstanding. They think - this guy makes sense, he is ok, maybe more of them are ok. So the process of generalisation benefits Muslims instead. Therefore Mr Nawaz is doing you a favour, surely?
 
I don't care about the drinking and strippers. I know Muslims who like a drink and chase girls. Mrs Robert says every Muslim she knows drinks. It's fine by me.

What I have noticed is that Mr Nawaz is effective in shutting down Islamophobia among some white Christians, Americans in particular. He knocks a crack in their monolithic wall of generalisation and misunderstanding. They think - this guy makes sense, he is ok, maybe more of them are ok. So the process of generalisation benefits Muslims instead. Therefore Mr Nawaz is doing you a favour, surely?

I dont care either but the how can a person claim to speaking on behalf of Muslims when he isn't even following the religion, not just what I mentioned but he himself is says he doesn't follow any of the religion at all.

Of course such people will think he makes sense because he hardly mentions the main cause which is foreign policy but instead panders to their viewpoint of extremism being somehow rooted in the religion, it's texts or rhetoric in places of worship. He's not doing anyone any favours apart from the ones who agree with him without understanding the bigger pictures with regards to his motivations and the wider context.
 
A good question would be: Why was "Moderate Muslim" posterboy Maajid Nawaz placed on a list of anti-Muslim extremists by the SPLC?

Surely there's no smoke without fire...
 
If said priest had served his jail time, and was walking the path of redemption I would be happy to listen to him. He would have insight that I lack into how to tackle that societal disease. Christians are big on the idea of forgiveness, even agnostic cultural Christians like me.

Anyway I will take your advice about something Mr Nawaz said. Your priest example provides a segue. Is it ok to dress pre-pubescent girls in the headscarf? Is that sexualising children?

Is it sexualising children dressing them up?. It's a scarf!!
 
Maajid Nawaz posted a cartoon of the Prophet Muhammad pbuh on Twitter to get a reaction from Muslims. Sorry but what Muslim, nay what person, does that? And if he is still a Muslim, then he should know much something like that is crossing the line. It is impolite, disrespectful, and totally below the belt to do something like that, whether or not it is behind some smokescreen of "provoking debate". He is a troll. Actions define who a person is - this action destroyed his credibility.
 
Maajid Nawaz posted a cartoon of the Prophet Muhammad pbuh on Twitter to get a reaction from Muslims. Sorry but what Muslim, nay what person, does that? And if he is still a Muslim, then he should know much something like that is crossing the line. It is impolite, disrespectful, and totally below the belt to do something like that, whether or not it is behind some smokescreen of "provoking debate". He is a troll. Actions define who a person is - this action destroyed his credibility.

The truth is he is working for those who spread hate against Islam/Muslims which is why he posted the cartoon. Public records show he has received more than £1 Million pounds in funding from Pro-Israel parties since 2011.
 
Be a Briton as much as be a Muslim. Contribute to British society. Learn the language, obey the laws, don't close yourself off in enclaves, don't join organisations which want to cause havoc on the streets and don't get into groups which predate sexually on kids. You must admit that the latter two things keep happening. To point them out is not Islamophobia.

If it's okay to point at Muslims or Pakistanis as a group when it comes to predating sexually on kids, why don't we see the same judgement when it comes to white people who trawl the far east for the same reasons? I'm pretty sure the many paedophile rings bust by the cops after elaborate operations have often had a vast majority of white people as members, often bankers, lawyers and other respectable professions among their ranks. It would cause an uproar if those sort of crimes were laid on the white English race I'm pretty sure.
 
If it's okay to point at Muslims or Pakistanis as a group when it comes to predating sexually on kids, why don't we see the same judgement when it comes to white people who trawl the far east for the same reasons? I'm pretty sure the many paedophile rings bust by the cops after elaborate operations have often had a vast majority of white people as members, often bankers, lawyers and other respectable professions among their ranks. It would cause an uproar if those sort of crimes were laid on the white English race I'm pretty sure.

I'm happy to condemn that disgusting practice equally Cap. It's certainly a failure by some British whites to integrate with the laws and customs of, for example, the Philippines, as well as any standard of decency.

But I am not pointing at Muslims or Pakistanis as a group. The fact remains however that said group is disproportionally represented in terms of that type of crime.
 
A good question would be: Why was "Moderate Muslim" posterboy Maajid Nawaz placed on a list of anti-Muslim extremists by the SPLC?

Surely there's no smoke without fire...

Firstly because Quilliam wrote that the goals of nonviolent Islamists is the same as that of violent Islamists - they disagree only on tactics. Which is true, surely? Both want to overthrow democracy.

Secondly because the SPLC claim that he called for criminalisation of the veil, which he didn't do. In fact he stated on LBC that such a law would be unBritish.
 
Is it sexualising children dressing them up?. It's a scarf!!

I guess the question implies that perhaps mothers think that prepubescent girls have some sort of sexuality to cover up in order to protect them. I guess that it is drawing an equivalence with white mothers letting their eleven years old girls out in short skirts and makeup, and said girls being the target market for pop groups like Little Mix who dress provocatively.

I think this is stretching the metaphor somewhat. As you say it's just a scarf.
 
I'm happy to condemn that disgusting practice equally Cap. It's certainly a failure by some British whites to integrate with the laws and customs of, for example, the Philippines, as well as any standard of decency.

But I am not pointing at Muslims or Pakistanis as a group. The fact remains however that said group is disproportionally represented in terms of that type of crime.

You might be happy to condemn the white English classes, but the vast majority of white English people would be outraged. Perhaps if more newspapers took this bold step it would be easier to then pinpoint Pakistanis/Muslims as a group with less fear of being labelled as racist. But I have never seen white English Christians being condemned for any crime as a group, not even hate crimes committed by white supremacists where the label is altered to a more palatable tag of 'Alt-Right', a term you have used yourself on these forums.
 
You might be happy to condemn the white English classes, but the vast majority of white English people would be outraged. Perhaps if more newspapers took this bold step it would be easier to then pinpoint Pakistanis/Muslims as a group with less fear of being labelled as racist. But I have never seen white English Christians being condemned for any crime as a group, not even hate crimes committed by white supremacists where the label is altered to a more palatable tag of 'Alt-Right', a term you have used yourself on these forums.

You can't reduce easily reduce behaviour to a single set of influences.

For example, did English Christians become Crusaders purely because they were Christian? I would say that land grab opportunities for impoverished English nobles was at least as important a factor as religion.

Similarly the mainly-Pakistani Muslims who are perpetrating this evil in British city after city are not doing so because they are British Pakistani Muslims, but through a combination of:

- unemployment - the Devil makes work for idle hands, to quote an old Christian saying
- inferiority complex about their position in society, where sex with white girls makes them feel bigger
- atavistic misogyny, whether tribal, cultural or fundamentalist, so non-Muslim girls are treatable as chattel
- literalism / failure to understand metaphor

For example, one of the most recent gang said he considered white girls as subhuman, to be treated like trash. For another, one defendant said it was ok to have sex with underage girls because of the very young age of the Prophet's second wife. Now, I accept that the practice in those days was for a man to marry a very young girl, but not to consummate the marriage until she reached puberty. Seems like this particular defendant did not know this and took the scripture literally.
 
You can't reduce easily reduce behaviour to a single set of influences.

For example, did English Christians become Crusaders purely because they were Christian? I would say that land grab opportunities for impoverished English nobles was at least as important a factor as religion.

Similarly the mainly-Pakistani Muslims who are perpetrating this evil in British city after city are not doing so because they are British Pakistani Muslims, but through a combination of:

- unemployment - the Devil makes work for idle hands, to quote an old Christian saying
- inferiority complex about their position in society, where sex with white girls makes them feel bigger
- atavistic misogyny, whether tribal, cultural or fundamentalist, so non-Muslim girls are treatable as chattel
- literalism / failure to understand metaphor

For example, one of the most recent gang said he considered white girls as subhuman, to be treated like trash. For another, one defendant said it was ok to have sex with underage girls because of the very young age of the Prophet's second wife. Now, I accept that the practice in those days was for a man to marry a very young girl, but not to consummate the marriage until she reached puberty. Seems like this particular defendant did not know this and took the scripture literally.

Yes I read the quote about the gang member who said white girls should be treated like trash, it's been widely publicised in the British newspapers. The other one about the Prophet and underage girls, first time I've heard that one. Interesting that these statements are now going to be used as something the whole Pakistani or Muslim community must answer for. Fair enough, but then we should apply the same standards when neo-Nazis make statements decrying Muslims or Jews and ask for an explanation from the majority white community. That never happens though for some reason.
 
[MENTION=138463]Slog[/MENTION] Muslims will vote for left/liberal parties in general not always as in Europe a lot are working class and also these parties stand up for minority rights and promote multi culturalism and are anti racism. So they work better in most Muslims interests than voting for conservative or right wing parties that want to cut social welfare limit immigration and might be more hostile to minorities and aspects of minority culture.

So people will put their own anti LGBT or anti feminist views aside and vote for a party that would benefit themselves and their community more.
 
Self interest. It's a thing. Morality only comes into play when you can embark on your moral crusade of choice without actually harming your interests. This is how the conservative at home, where you're a majority, but liberal abroad, where you're a minority, mindset works.
 
Self interest. It's a thing. Morality only comes into play when you can embark on your moral crusade of choice without actually harming your interests. This is how the conservative at home, where you're a majority, but liberal abroad, where you're a minority, mindset works.

Very true...
 
The truth is he is working for those who spread hate against Islam/Muslims which is why he posted the cartoon. Public records show he has received more than £1 Million pounds in funding from Pro-Israel parties since 2011.

A pro-Israel former extremist Western "Muslim". Given that this is readily available knowledge, I am not sure why Maajid is still attracting support - although I have my suspicions of course!
 
If said priest had served his jail time, and was walking the path of redemption I would be happy to listen to him. He would have insight that I lack into how to tackle that societal disease. Christians are big on the idea of forgiveness, even agnostic cultural Christians like me.

Anyway I will take your advice about something Mr Nawaz said. Your priest example provides a segue. Is it ok to dress pre-pubescent girls in the headscarf? Is that sexualising children?

ok so lets discuss the question you've asked. The very fact that "sexualising children" and the headscarf are discussed in the same context is where the problem lies. For someone even to ask the question and somehow connect the two is so beyond discussion that all one can do is a "double face palm". I mean this is the problem with people like Nawaz. They have no real idea what their talking about. Dont you think its a poor reflection of our society that we have to even contemplate such a notion?

but lets for arguments sake indulge your question, how and why does wearing a headscarf by a child sexualise them? Children all across the world wear headscaves. In places like the subcontinent it is part of ones dress code. It is simply an expression of modesty and some people like to train their children to dress modestly from a young age so as to inculcate a set of values in them. There is nothing "sexual" about it but only someone as sick in the head as Nawaz could think of something so absurd.
 
[MENTION=253]the Great Khan[/MENTION] in societies where headscarf is status quo women who wear headscarf are presented as being moral and chaste n women who dont are disparaged as having loose morals.

u get the propaganda pictures of women being compared to lollipops and comparing non hijabis to a lolly that has flies buzzing around it and the hijabi women as the lollipop in the wrapper protected from the male gaze. The dichotomy of hijab n non hijab is often used to sexualise women in the way that if u dont wear hijab then u will become a sexual temptation for men n will be asking for attention. making little girls wear hijab is implying that if they didnt they somehow would be temptation for men.

women-lollipops.jpg0

hijab-lollipop1.jpg
 
Be a Briton as much as be a Muslim. Contribute to British society. Learn the language, obey the laws, don't close yourself off in enclaves, don't join organisations which want to cause havoc on the streets and don't get into groups which predate sexually on kids. You must admit that the latter two things keep happening. To point them out is not Islamophobia.

whats being a briton like? perhaps you can tell me. I want you to lay out what being a briton means. WHat are the key characteristics that make someone a briton.

Also what contirubution would you like to see from Muslims to british society that you feel they currently do not do? do we need to pay more taxes perhaps? or perhaps we need to bend our knee everytime we see a real briton pass by? what contributions would you like Muslims in britain to do?

Now coming onto the next points you've made. Dont join arganisations that want to cause havoc on the streets. Well I agree. Muslims shouldnt be joining organisations that do that and by and large the numbers are miniscule. However to ignore why things happen is to simply bury your head in the sand. For example ISIS only exists because Britan helped destory Iraq and kill a million people. Perhaps non muslim britans should make more of an effort to stop their elected mp's from voting for uneccessary foreing adventures that cause cockroaches like ISIS to emerge.

Moving onto your other point, yes your right, night economy based rape gangs must be stopped and the Muslim community has a responsibility to ensure these people are reported and this sick mentality banished. However the answer is more Islamic education and normative Islam that will prevent thes eunislamic practices from being followed. We have young and old men indulging in unlawful sexual practices which are against the shariah and the muslim community has a responsibility to inform and shame people who go against our custome and laws. But society at large also has to take responsibility. British society by and large is riddled with sexual malpractices and a culture of exploitation. The statistics of violence against women are appaling, the statistics of peodophilia against children as young as a few months old is again appalling.
These men have unfortunatley been integrated into this debase culture of sexual malpractice that is now almost seen as the norm in vast sections of british society, of which the majority are the largest ciulprit by far. For example the sexual assault on babies and toddlers is a well knows problem in white british society. The organised sexual exploitation of children since the 1950's via care homes is an organisational issue. The scandal of the catholic church and its worldwide organised almost industrial exploitation of children. the large european child sex rings that are so ingrained in some areas that people wont even talk about them.

so in short I agree with you, there is a problem but it should be seen in the wider context of the overall probelm of organised peodophilia within Britains majority community.

Also there is another issue, the wide ranging problems in the night economy itself and the destruction of the family unit. These men work in the night economy because they cant find work in the day time economy. Even if they are as qualified. Depression, self worth and a startling rejection of their own traditions while exploiting vulnerable girls are all issues that need to be tackled. However the problem no matter how big is dwarfed by the wider issue of peodophilia which should be tackled more robustly. Also finally the issue around why these girls have broken homes needs to be looked at too. The organised destruction of the family unit must be looked at too.

Finally your comment about shutting yourself off into enclaves is racist. Sorry Robert but it is. I'll explain by a small example from my own experience. I moved into an are with a large majority white population. We were four families on the street. within ten years nearly every white family had either prepared to move out or had moved out. Why? did my being there force them out? Also you seem to be very good at singling out Muslims and their enclaves but what about no go areas for Muslims and asians? I could point a number out to you right now. I still remember the white family down the road throwing rocks and soil into my mums kitchen and shouting the P word at us. So much for British values hunh Robert? And what was our crime? helping to rebuild your country after you raped and pillaged ours. The largest so called enclave where I live is the Hindu enclave of Belgrave. Where the caste system is alive and well and "mujray" (if your interested in what a mujra is look it up) are a regular organised occurence.

so explain to me how Muslims go about shutting themselves off in enclaves. Do we build walls and setup barbed wire like they did in NI? or do we go around stoning peoples kitchens when their making a curry cos we dont like the smell? please pray tell how this process works as its alien to my experience.

and one last point, to single out one community using their unique characteristic while ignoring another community who have both indulged in the same or similar crime, is discrimination and unhelpful.
 
[MENTION=253]the Great Khan[/MENTION] in societies where headscarf is status quo women who wear headscarf are presented as being moral and chaste n women who dont are disparaged as having loose morals.

u get the propaganda pictures of women being compared to lollipops and comparing non hijabis to a lolly that has flies buzzing around it and the hijabi women as the lollipop in the wrapper protected from the male gaze. The dichotomy of hijab n non hijab is often used to sexualise women in the way that if u dont wear hijab then u will become a sexual temptation for men n will be asking for attention. making little girls wear hijab is implying that if they didnt they somehow would be temptation for men.

View attachment 758510

View attachment 75852

to merely reduce the headscarf to a sexual issue is just down right stupid and shows how far we have fallen.
 
[MENTION=253]the Great Khan[/MENTION] Hijab wasnt even popular amongst Pakistanis before last couple of decades most used to wear cheela or dupatta over shoulder or around their heads loosely. Most of elder women in my family n my mother are like that. most punjabi elder women be it sikh muslim hindu have a cheela or dupatta.

Hijab was always more of an arab thing esp in khaleeji arab culture. in the u.k it got popularised amongst 2nd n 3rd gen desi muslims who were searching for an 'authentic' identity n a lot turned to deobandism n salafism which have more austere conservative interpretation than the sufi/folk islam of their parents and grandparents.
 
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