How does Mohammad Abbas compare to Glenn McGrath, Vernon Philander and Mohammad Asif?

[aboveandbeyond]

We are not talking about how anyone started. Towards the business end of his career, he was bowling high 70 mph

Even at 40, Sir Jimmy, was bowling 80 - 83 mph.

 

[shaz619]

How many times has anyone got a 8 wickets in a Innings.

We’re making excuses for him again, he’s a good bowler, it’s ok to say in some aspects he isn’t so great when compared to some of the best ever; in a similar scenario they would be much better positioned to finish the game.

 

[Farabi]

Even at 40, Sir Jimmy, was bowling 80 - 83 mph.

Sir you started with 85, now you’re down to 80. 5 mins later, you will be high 70s

 

[Farabi]

Jeez. Mcgrath, Anderson, Hadlee, Pollock, were absolute Champions performers. I would say without Mcgrath, Australia were definitely not having that Great era of theirs. He set up Majority of their wins. Be it Test matches, or the Hattrick of world cups they won from 99 - 2007. He was awesome.

And they were all operating 125-130 KPH

 

[Major]

We’re making excuses for him again, he’s a good bowler, it’s ok to say in some aspects he isn’t so great when compared to some of the best ever; in a similar scenario they would be much better positioned to finish the game.

in every scenario SA wins. 150 was a poor target. The only chance that Pakistan had created was due to Abbas

 

[shaz619]

in every scenario SA wins. 150 was a poor target. The only chance that Pakistan had created was due to Abbas

For example, if Rabada found a similar situation before him, he is more likely to take his team home.

Am not taking anything away from Abbas but this thread is comparing him with the best so you raise your standards.

 

[Farabi]

he is wayward and ineffective. This was evident at the Australia tour. If Pakistan plays 10 test matches a year, they cant give more than 2 games for a guy to prove himself.

You keep on telling us the Man of the series, but ignore the pitch map of his bowling.
Usman Shinwari also had great stats, probably the best odi bowling stats at the time, but Mickey rightly did not pick him for the WOrld Cup because his bowling had flaws that other teams would had taken advantage of.

Let’s move on—I don’t think we’ll reach an agreement here.

Saying Amir Jamal should be dropped for being wayward is like saying Abbas should be dropped for being slow.

In my view, it’s very simple: selection should be based purely on performance. I am ruthless on this and I have zero flexibility on this, so I won’t waste any more time debating it.

 

[aboveandbeyond]

Sir you started with 85, now you’re down to 80. 5 mins later, you will be high 70s

No. I've seen Andersons career from the get go from his Burnley cc days

 

[aboveandbeyond]

And they were all operating 125-130 KPH

Not at all. They could operate from 130 - 138k on any given day. Great bowlers had subtle pace changes.

 

[Farabi]

No. I've seen Andersons career from the get go from his Burnley cc days

Not at all. They could operate from 130 - 138k on any given day. Great bowlers had subtle pace changes.

I think this is a waste of our time without data. I am happy to be proven wrong, but I’d need to see data.
I have grey hair and I’ve seen all these legends bowl. It’s true that some of them started quicker, but business end of their careers most of the time they were bowling 78-82 mph range.

 

[Major]

For example, if Rabada found a similar situation before him, he is more likely to take his team home.

Am not taking anything away from Abbas but this thread is comparing him with the best so you raise your standards.

bro, the only reason why Rabada was batting was cause of Abbas. No other bowler would had bought South Africa 8 down in a chase for 150. South Africa wins it easily in every scenario.


Abbas is being compared to the best because of the bowling spell he bowled. A match where you are just defending 150 on a Day 4 wicket, and suddenly this guy shows up and takes 6 wickets out of no where. This isnt normal

 

[mominsaigol]

If you think Asif and mcGrath were boring, than you you really lack any knowledge on cricket.

Mind you, at the end part of his career Akram was bowling at similar paces as these guys aswell

If you think Asif and mcGrath were boring, than you you really lack any knowledge on cricket.

Says the guy who claimed a barely 40 avg odi batter batting in crickets easiest batting era with only 3 odi centuries to his name is suddenly the 1st or 2nd best odi batter the country has produced.

 

[shaz619]

bro, the only reason why Rabada was batting was cause of Abbas. No other bowler would had bought South Africa 8 down in a chase for 150. South Africa wins it easily in every scenario.


Abbas is being compared to the best because of the bowling spell he bowled. A match where you are just defending 150 on a Day 4 wicket, and suddenly this guy shows up and takes 6 wickets out of no where. This isnt normal

I said it in the match thread, Abbas gets these conditions every weekend in England and personally I expected 4-5 wickets minimum from him. 150 on that pitch can be a tricky chase especially when you lose wickets in the morning session. Abbas has skills which can be compared with the best, and as I said there is no shame in saying he lacks the speed & killer instinct to finish the job when you put him next to someone like Glen McGrath.

 

[Abid Z]

Please name some that bowled the same speed as Abbas - 74-77 average.

If there are any they will play majority in South Africa or NZ

Chaminda vaas
Shaun Pollock
Angus Fraser

 

[Farabi]

Chaminda vaas
Shaun Pollock
Angus Fraser

No point sharing these names. They won’t believe it, they will bring up something else.

140+ kph , control and variation is an elite level. No one is denying that. The conversation isn’t about fielding elite here, the conversation here is about lesser of the evils and trade offs. If we have to compromise, it has to be speed not control/variation.

 

[Abid Z]

No point sharing these names. They won’t believe it, they will bring up something else.

140+ kph , control and variation is an elite level. No one is denying that. The conversation isn’t about fielding elite here, the conversation here is about lesser of the evils and trade offs. If we have to compromise, it has to be speed not control/variation.

lol. You are right. The only thing that should ever be pointed out in such facile comparison is there is space in world cricket for a bowler bowling in high 70’s maintaining a tight line and length. But they can only be really effective provided there is support at the other end to take wickets. Almost all the bowlers mentioned (McGrath, philander, Asif, chaminda vaas, pollock) had a fantastic bowler bowling at the other end.

Abbas has almost never had that constantly not even a good spinner. Without support a medium pacer can be seen off and pressure released

 

[Abid Z]

One good spell does not make him compare to other great bowlers, take it easy. He was dropped years for the right reason and he was a useless trundler , who just took 6 wickets against some low level batsmen where Rabada was better than many others.

Abbas in New Zealand tour couple years ago was injured or returning from injury. Was rightly dropped.

 

[Abid Z]

sir Aj has no line and length. You keep ignoring that or dont understand what accurate line and length it.

He’s not talking about AJ. He’s discussing fairness/unfairness in process and selection. He’s saying you have to be judicious when discussing players and give respect to contexts and circumstances

 

[The Scorer]

Abbas's pace maybe similar to when he started but he has improved physically. Maybe access to good nutritional advice, a well equipped gym and expert fitness coaches in county cricket has helped him. He now looks capable of bowling long spells. If there is any sort of help in pitch he will be a threat. His mentality is better too, much more aggressive than before. A good option for Pakistan.

 

[Abid Z]

I said it in the match thread, Abbas gets these conditions every weekend in England and personally I expected 4-5 wickets minimum from him. 150 on that pitch can be a tricky chase especially when you lose wickets in the morning session. Abbas has skills which can be compared with the best, and as I said there is no shame in saying he lacks the speed & killer instinct to finish the job when you put him next to someone like Glen McGrath.

He had very little support from the other end. In county he’s usually bowling with Kyle Abbott with a dukes ball.

 

[Abid Z]

Abbas's pace maybe similar to when he started but he has improved physically. Maybe access to good nutritional advice, a well equipped gym and expert fitness coaches in county cricket has helped him. He now looks capable of bowling long spells. If there is any sort of help in pitch he will be a threat. His mentality is better too, much more aggressive than before. A good option for Pakistan.

Plus he regularly touched 130kph and maintained good control despite such speeds. The difference between his lowest speed 120kph and fastest speed 130kph was 10kph. That stops batters walking down to him. At least he has corrected that weakness. Plus he has a bouncer. He just needs a good partner at the other end. I think it would be Mir Hamza and Salman for the next test.

 

[shariqnoor]

Once again Pakistani fans hyping a bowler after 1 decent match. Abbas will be gone after a few tests. He's not good enough simply because he's specific to conditions. Very few grounds in the world will give him seaming conditions throughout the Test match.

If you played McGrath and Asif on those Pindi flatbeds, they would've still gotten people out. Abbas would've been carted for 1000 runs.

Abbas' performances should be digested by fans with an asterisk and not hype him at all. If you want to get the maximum out of him, play him only in seaming conditions or UAE type where run scoring is dead.

 

[TheSultan]

Jeez. Mcgrath, Anderson, Hadlee, Pollock, were absolute Champions performers. I would say without Mcgrath, Australia were definitely not having that Great era of theirs. He set up Majority of their wins. Be it Test matches, or the Hattrick of world cups they won from 99 - 2007. He was awesome.

The thread doesn’t mention Anderson and Hadlee. I like Jimmy and is great to watch. He has sharper pace than the rest and his skill level is a lot higher. Hadlee at his best was also watchable - but he’ll always have a bit on an asterisk because of his anonymous performance in the subcontinent.

McGrath- sure has taken a lot of wickets, but boring, boring, boring. And regarding him setting up majority of their wins, that’s not entirely accurate. His team’s batsmen put that scoreboard pressure on the opposition that allowed a boring metronome to just plug away. Yes credit to his accuracy, but he’s still boring.

 

[Chip32]

Like 3 tiers below all of them.

Didn't watch, but South African pitches are literally tailor made for his style. He was treated like a grade cricketer the last time he played in Australia and NZ for a reason.

 

[Rana]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1873362156898615556

 

[shaz619]

He had very little support from the other end. In county he’s usually bowling with Kyle Abbott with a dukes ball.

That’s fair although they did help in the 1st SA innings & that ain't the only thing in England, it’s the favourable conditions here as well (I said Abbas had to do something before SA’s 2nd innings because the conditions were tailor made for his bowling), we’ve have long/wet summers over the past few years. When the pitch starts to flatten a bit, that’s when some issues begin to transpire and especially beyond the first couple of spells.

 

[RidiculousMan]

Asif has 106 wickets in 44 inns at 24.36 average.

Abbas has 97 wickets in 46 inns at 22.73 average.

I think we all know who's the GOAT.

 

[Abid Z]

Once again Pakistani fans hyping a bowler after 1 decent match. Abbas will be gone after a few tests. He's not good enough simply because he's specific to conditions. Very few grounds in the world will give him seaming conditions throughout the Test match.

If you played McGrath and Asif on those Pindi flatbeds, they would've still gotten people out. Abbas would've been carted for 1000 runs.

Abbas' performances should be digested by fans with an asterisk and not hype him at all. If you want to get the maximum out of him, play him only in seaming conditions or UAE type where run scoring is dead.

Either you are choosing to ignore the essence of this thread or you haven’t grasped the main point. It’s that a 77/78 mph line and length bowler has a place in test cricket regardless of pitches they play on. It’s absolutely not a comparison in test records of great bowlers. But rather anybody can be an effective bowler if certain things happen.

These are the uncontrollables.
A) height. If you are a bit taller that’s good. 6ft is ok (Asif) 6ft 4 is great (McGrath) 5ft 7 (philander) that also works.
B) speed. 77mph is ok. (Abbas and pollock, Vaas). 79/80 is good (McGrath Asif) 80/81 is fantastic if you don’t err in line and length (umar Gul)

But there are controllables that are arguably more important. Of course 120kph is rubbish anywhere anytime. But 128/130 is ideal (edges don’t fly)

A) unerring metronomy is essential.
B) preventing a batsman walking down to you by bowling a heavy ball that can jag and dip while having a surprise bouncer
C) bowling at the other end.


Almost every bowler we mention as a metronome has a phenomenal partner at the other end to keep things tight and take wickets. Ie a metronome is effective because of who bowls at the other end and doesn’t release pressure.


McGrath - warne, Gillespie, Brett Lee (you just can’t score)
Pollock (Donald, Ntini, philander)
Vaas (herath murali)
Asif …??? (Never had a settled partner)

Abbas just doesn’t have a settled partner yet. Though Sajid khan, Nauman Ali, SSA, Mir Hamza depending on surfaces would make it interesting.

 

[Farabi]

lol. You are right. The only thing that should ever be pointed out in such facile comparison is there is space in world cricket for a bowler bowling in high 70’s maintaining a tight line and length. But they can only be really effective provided there is support at the other end to take wickets. Almost all the bowlers mentioned (McGrath, philander, Asif, chaminda vaas, pollock) had a fantastic bowler bowling at the other end.

Abbas has almost never had that constantly not even a good spinner. Without support a medium pacer can be seen off and pressure released

It’s not that bowlers who bowl in high 70’s need support. All bowlers need support from the other end. Test match bowling is about building sustained pressure. You need 4 bowlers who can be stubborn on line and length, and variation to keep batter guessing, irrespective of the pace. Wickets come from consistently bowling in right areas/channel. Pace can help here, but it’s not required. It’s about being patient until batters make mistakes.
If there is any weak link, good test batters will wait for them to milk them

 

[Kianig89]

Is this a joke, McGrath is the absolute best with 500+ wickets while Abass is just an ok bowler and Philander had a crazy peak like Marshall

 

[Abid Z]

It’s not that bowlers who bowl in high 70’s need support. All bowlers need support from the other end. Test match bowling is about building sustained pressure. You need 4 bowlers who can be stubborn on line and length, and variation to keep batter guessing, irrespective of the pace. Wickets come from consistently bowling in right areas/channel. Pace can help here, but it’s not required. It’s about being patient until batters make mistakes.
If there is any weak link, good test batters will wait for them to milk them

100% agree with this

 

[Bewal Express]

Solid bowler in certain conditions but that's about it.

 

[Farabi]

Solid bowler in certain conditions but that's about it.

Agreed. Problem is that there are no test pacers for any conditions. Mir Hamza is a like4like. At least these 2 guys can build pressure even on Pakistani pitches and we can pin our hopes on Sajid/Nauman.
If Shaheen can get his act together, the reverse he showed in SA ODI series can be a welcome boon on dry surfaces at home.

 

[moghul]

Once again Pakistani fans hyping a bowler after 1 decent match. Abbas will be gone after a few tests. He's not good enough simply because he's specific to conditions. Very few grounds in the world will give him seaming conditions throughout the Test match.

If you played McGrath and Asif on those Pindi flatbeds, they would've still gotten people out. Abbas would've been carted for 1000 runs.

Abbas' performances should be digested by fans with an asterisk and not hype him at all. If you want to get the maximum out of him, play him only in seaming conditions or UAE type where run scoring is dead.

Yes, with this spell , Abbas will certainly play in two tests against WI. This is THE weakest WI team ever to visit any country and I'm almost sure Abbas will be a failure due to not so helpful wickets in Pakistan.

 

[moghul]

1. Glenn McGrath 10/10
2. Vernon Philander 7.5/10
3. Mohammad Asif 7/10
4. Mohammad Abbas 6/10

Please for cricket sake, don't talk Abbas in the same breath as McGrath, Asif and Philander.

 

[cricketjoshila]

Chaminda vaas
Shaun Pollock
Angus Fraser

Pollock started as a fast bowler not 70-75mph bowler. Injury forced him to change.

His performance suffered after his first 40-45 tests. Even then he was bowling in early 80s.

Vaas also was also fast medium in his early days.

 

[Abid Z]

Pollock started as a fast bowler not 70-75mph bowler. Injury forced him to change.

His performance suffered after his first 40-45 tests. Even then he was bowling in early 80s.

Vaas also was also fast medium in his early days.

Where did 70-75 come from? Nobody bowls that speed

There was never a time in their lives where vaas or pollock were more than 80mph. And I pretty much watched them regularly. I’m over 50 and been watching since the early 1980’s. Speed guns we’re only used in the late 1990’s so before that it was all guess work.

 

[cricketjoshila]

Where did 70-75 come from? Nobody bowls that speed

There was never a time in their lives where vaas or pollock were more than 80mph. And I pretty much watched them regularly. I’m over 50 and been watching since the early 1980’s. Speed guns we’re only used in the late 1990’s so before that it was all guess work.

80mph is 128 kph. Pollock bowled plenty of balls above that.

3rd ODI, Cape Town, November 26, 2006, India tour of South Africa

Just one example

 

[Abid Z]

80mph is 128 kph. Pollock bowled plenty of balls above that.

3rd ODI, Cape Town, November 26, 2006, India tour of South Africa

Just one example

Even abbas bowls occasional ball at 129/130kph. Vaas, pollock abbas are strictly the same speed. 78-80mph let’s say. That’s military medium. You may get a very rare one at 81-82mph with the wind behind them what’s your point. They are labelled as right arm fast medium. But they are not fast as such.

 

[Farabi]

80mph is 128 kph. Pollock bowled plenty of balls above that.

3rd ODI, Cape Town, November 26, 2006, India tour of South Africa

Just one example

I don’t understand how people are making such definitive claims here. Speed guns only became common in the late '90s.

Pollock and Vaas dominated with their wicketkeepers standing up to the stumps. Later, bowlers like Mohammad Asif and Philander tore apart teams in SENA conditions at 120-130 kph—similar to Abbas.

In Test cricket:
- Line and length + variation + brain = quality pacer
- Add 135+ pace to the mix = elite bowler
- Any pace without line, length, or variation = not a Test bowler. Even 150+ pace cannot save you as we saw with Sami.

 

[cricketjoshila]

Even abbas bowls occasional ball at 129/130kph. Vaas, pollock abbas are strictly the same speed. 78-80mph let’s say. That’s military medium. You may get a very rare one at 81-82mph with the wind behind them what’s your point. They are labelled as right arm fast medium. But they are not fast as such. Even my mum can bowl 70-75

Lol no.

Pollock bowled plenty of balls in 130s not the occasional ball.

Vaas was quicker.

This is Vaas's famous hattrick over of 2003 WC.

Far quicker than Abbas.

 

[cricketjoshila]

I don’t understand how people are making such definitive claims here. Speed guns only became common in the late '90s.

Pollock and Vaas dominated with their wicketkeepers standing up to the stumps. Later, bowlers like Mohammad Asif and Philander tore apart teams in SENA conditions at 120-130 kph—similar to Abbas.

In Test cricket:
- Line and length + variation + brain = quality pacer
- Add 135+ pace to the mix = elite bowler
- Any pace without line, length, or variation = not a Test bowler. Even 150+ pace cannot save you as we saw with Sami.

The video i posted has speed guns. Check speeds.

Philander was a early 130k bowler.

None of the bowlers you mentioned was mid 120k bowler like Abbas.

Asif avgd 35 in Australia and 29 in England. What tore apart?

Here is philander bowling.

 

[Abid Z]

Lol no.

Pollock bowled plenty of balls in 130s not the occasional ball.

Vaas was quicker.

This is Vaas's famous hattrick over of 2003 WC.

Far quicker than Abbas.

82mph is 131 kph. Abbas fastest ball (that I saw ) was 130. So you can say we are splitting hairs. 78-79 for abbas mostly 79-81 For others.
Bowling in tests and Odi is different though. But anyway what’s your point ? That pollock and vaas were a couple of kph faster that Abbas? Ok

 

[Abid Z]

The video i posted has speed guns. Check speeds.

Philander was a early 130k bowler.

None of the bowlers you mentioned was mid 120k bowler like Abbas.

Asif avgd 35 in Australia and 29 in England. What tore apart?

Here is philander bowling.

Anybody can do what you did. Cherry pick a video or two to prove a point. Here is philander bowling in tests in Australia in the mid 120’s

 

[Nikhil_cric]

Not necessarily. There have been very successful test bowlers who were effective with 75-80 mph speeds on all surfaces. It’s a myth that you NEED pace to succeed in test cricket.
White Ball less so.

Its not a myth. You can't survive in Test cricket for long at his pace.

It's why McGrath Waa a cut above the rest. Could clock upto 90 mph and generated a lot more bounce than the others on this list.

 

[Farabi]

Its not a myth. You can't survive in Test cricket for long at his pace.

It's why McGrath Waa a cut above the rest. Could clock upto 90 mph and generated a lot more bounce than the others on this list.

In Test cricket:
- Line and length + variation + brain + 125 pace = quality pacer
- Add 135+ pace to the mix = elite bowler
- Any pace without sustained line, length, or variation = not a Test bowler. Even 150+ pace cannot save you as we saw with Sami.

 

[Abid Z]

In Test cricket:
- Line and length + variation + brain + 125 pace = quality pacer
- Add 135+ pace to the mix = elite bowler
- Any pace without sustained line, length, or variation = not a Test bowler. Even 150+ pace cannot save you as we saw with Sami.

Nobody would disagree with this. Plus a good bowling partner or two

 

[kron]

In Test cricket:
- Line and length + variation + brain + 125 pace = quality pacer
- Add 135+ pace to the mix = elite bowler
- Any pace without sustained line, length, or variation = not a Test bowler. Even 150+ pace cannot save you as we saw with Sami.

Wrong for the first part. Need bounce if you are sub 135.

135 plus steep bounce or variations plus a mean bouncer =great player

Mcg was not slow in his prime btw

 

[kron]

Its not a myth. You can't survive in Test cricket for long at his pace.

It's why McGrath Waa a cut above the rest. Could clock upto 90 mph and generated a lot more bounce than the others on this list.

Hadlee is the only real successful trundler

 

[BouncerGuy]

Abbas's only problem is pace. He is deadly accurate but just pace problem is there... He will do well on supporting pitches thats all

 

[Devadwal]

McGrath will laugh after seeing his caparison with Fixer Asif and trundlers Abbas and philander.

McGrath was all time great bowler

 

[ads101]

In Test cricket:
- Line and length + variation + brain + 125 pace = quality pacer
- Add 135+ pace to the mix = elite bowler
- Any pace without sustained line, length, or variation = not a Test bowler. Even 150+ pace cannot save you as we saw with Sami.

Great post this is very true. I hate it when we just get in a bowler in tests because he bowls fast, it never works out. Worse still we just set them up for injury.

 

[Abid Z]

Wrong for the first part. Need bounce if you are sub 135.

135 plus steep bounce or variations plus a mean bouncer =great player

Mcg was not slow in his prime btw

So you agree with him while pretending to disagree. A bouncer is a variant of the line and length ball. He wrote that.

 

[kron]

So you agree with him while pretending to disagree. A bouncer is a variant of the line and length ball. He wrote that.

Nope. I meant consistent bounce. Not like one off variation. You need bounce off good length.

 

[Major]

Abbas's only problem is pace. He is deadly accurate but just pace problem is there... He will do well on supporting pitches thats all

Which is why Abbas should be your 3rd or 4th bowler. Your first two need to be proper pace man with accurate line and length.

An attack of Mir Hamza, Khurram, AJ and Abbas isnt ideal

 

[Abid Z]

Nope. I meant consistent bounce. Not like one off variation. You need bounce off good length.

Great that you are in total agreement with everybody here just AS WELL AS everything Farabi wrote, you think he must also, as a prerequisite, be able to generate consistent bounce off a good line and length. (Lift)

How might this bowler do that ?

 

[kron]

Great that you are in total agreement with everybody here just AS WELL AS everything Farabi wrote, you think he must also, as a prerequisite, be able to generate consistent bounce off a good line and length. (Lift)

How might this bowler do that ?

Bouncer as a surprise factor is one aspect

But getting consistent lift when bending the back is a different ball game.

Variations is all well and fine but apart from accuracy and pace od atleast 130 plus, you need steep bounce to be truly elite. Generating lift off good length deliveries.

People think ahh Pollock mcgrath are slow. They actually weren't btw in their primes. They bowled 130 to 140.

But later on they were still elite despite lower pace cause they got consistent bounce naturally.

Not just using it as a surprise tactic.

You can have sustained line and length and variation but it still may not be enough if you can't generate bounce off different lengths consistently.

 

[Abid Z]

Bouncer as a surprise factor is one aspect

But getting consistent lift when bending the back is a different ball game.

Variations is all well and fine but apart from accuracy and pace od atleast 130 plus, you need steep bounce to be truly elite. Generating lift off good length deliveries.

People think ahh Pollock mcgrath are slow. They actually weren't btw in their primes. They bowled 130 to 140.

But later on they were still elite despite lower pace cause they got consistent bounce naturally.

Not just using it as a surprise tactic.

You can have sustained line and length and variation but it still may not be enough if you can't generate bounce off different lengths consistently.

Nobody has disagreed with this. And you appear to be in complete agreement with everybody that line and length is important. As well as L&l a bowler ought to have variety bone kind of variety is a bouncer. Another is seam in seam out. Swing. Etc.

But what you’re saying is consistent lift off a good length. This is vital. But please explain. Who gets this and how?

 

[Farabi]

Bouncer as a surprise factor is one aspect

But getting consistent lift when bending the back is a different ball game.

Variations is all well and fine but apart from accuracy and pace od atleast 130 plus, you need steep bounce to be truly elite. Generating lift off good length deliveries.

People think ahh Pollock mcgrath are slow. They actually weren't btw in their primes. They bowled 130 to 140.

But later on they were still elite despite lower pace cause they got consistent bounce naturally.

Not just using it as a surprise tactic.

You can have sustained line and length and variation but it still may not be enough if you can't generate bounce off different lengths consistently.

How tall is Bumrah?
How is he more effective that taller Aussie bowlers bowling in the BGT at similar pace?
How tall was Philander?

Every single SENA pacer is tall and some very tall, but rare few reach elite level. Bounce of good length is beneficial, but it’s not that big a factor.

If you read my post again, I said 135+ kph gets you in elite category but you can still be a quality pacer at 125-135 kph if you have the rest of the core skills.

The point is that pace is a weapon as long as you have L&L, Control, Variation. Otherwise it’s going to hurt you.

 

[FearlessRoar]

Abbas has the potential. Just imagine when he’s making ball by ball deliveries post age 30, bowling 16 overs without any breaks, what he could have achieved if he had started his career for Pakistan at the age of 22. By now, he would have over 400 Test wickets.

 

[Farabi]

Abbas has the potential. Just imagine when he’s making ball by ball deliveries post age 30, bowling 16 overs without any breaks, what he could have achieved if he had started his career for Pakistan at the age of 22. By now, he would have over 400 Test wickets.

Do we necessarily need long careers, or do we want to catch peaks of the players?

What I’ve seen with Pakistan cricket are 22 year olds arriving half baked and getting found out shortly.

Do you think maybe players should debut when they are ready for the step up? And that might be different age for everyone given individual development curve.

The recent debut of Khurram Shahzad was relatively successful in that he was looking the part the day he debuted (apart from injuries). It feels like he has debuted ideal time. 25/26 age, 4-5 FC seasons, 175 FC wickets, and fully developed skill sets.

 

[kron]

How tall is Bumrah?
How is he more effective that taller Aussie bowlers bowling in the BGT at similar pace?
How tall was Philander?

Every single SENA pacer is tall and some very tall, but rare few reach elite level. Bounce of good length is beneficial, but it’s not that big a factor.

If you read my post again, I said 135+ kph gets you in elite category but you can still be a quality pacer at 125-135 kph if you have the rest of the core skills.

The point is that pace is a weapon as long as you have L&L, Control, Variation. Otherwise it’s going to hurt you.

Bumrah gets high release because he has a high release action and his release point is much closer to the batsman than other bowlers. He also snaps his wrist down hard. Like Ryan Harris. That generates lift.

 

[kron]

Do we necessarily need long careers, or do we want to catch peaks of the players?

What I’ve seen with Pakistan cricket are 22 year olds arriving half baked and getting found out shortly.

Do you think maybe players should debut when they are ready for the step up? And that might be different age for everyone given individual development curve.

The recent debut of Khurram Shahzad was relatively successful in that he was looking the part the day he debuted (apart from injuries). It feels like he has debuted ideal time. 25/26 age, 4-5 FC seasons, 175 FC wickets, and fully developed skill sets.

Desi players once they become rich they become lazy. They don't care

I will say 4 years max and dump them unless trult special like bumrah for example.

 

[Farabi]

Desi players once they become rich they become lazy. They don't care

I will say 4 years max and dump them unless trult special like bumrah for example.

That’s a generalization. Mohammad Abbas and Mir Hamza have 600+ FC wickets. Did they get lazy? Shakeel, Kamran Ghulam, Agha Salman didn’t lose hope. They couldn’t get picked even though apparently Pakistan had a “middle order problem” but their mountain of runs in domestic were invisible because “Pakistani domestic standard is low” and “they are not international material”. Did they get lazy?

When you bring 18-22 year olds and make it so easy to get a Pakistan cap. What do you expect from them?

Don’t get overexciting by “next pace sensation”. Make them grind out domestic and prove their worth, and only those committed enough will rise to the top by the time they hit their mid 20s. That’s when you bring them in for their peak 5-10 years after they are already tearing apart domestic teams and donning over others.

Again, it’s 2024 and I’ve been seeing mature teams like Australia doing it since late 90s but Pakistanis want “youngster beauties” and then complain why they become lazy…

 

[Farabi]

Bumrah gets high release because he has a high release action and his release point is much closer to the batsman than other bowlers. He also snaps his wrist down hard. Like Ryan Harris. That generates lift.

So it’s not the height, it’s something to do with skill/release point. Which is exactly the point I am making. Height, pace, is not necessary. There’s many roads to success

 

[kron]

That’s a generalization. Mohammad Abbas and Mir Hamza have 600+ FC wickets. Did they get lazy? Shakeel, Kamran Ghulam, Agha Salman didn’t lose hope. They couldn’t get picked even though apparently Pakistan had a “middle order problem” but their mountain of runs in domestic were invisible because “Pakistani domestic standard is low” and “they are not international material”. Did they get lazy?

When you bring 18-22 year olds and make it so easy to get a Pakistan cap. What do you expect from them?

Don’t get overexciting by “next pace sensation”. Make them grind out domestic and prove their worth, and only those committed enough will rise to the top by the time they hit their mid 20s. That’s when you bring them in for their peak 5-10 years after they are already tearing apart domestic teams and donning over others.

Again, it’s 2024 and I’ve been seeing mature teams like Australia doing it since late 90s but Pakistanis want “youngster beauties” and then complain why they become lazy…

agreed. i am just going by examples i have seen.
135 plus on average
130 to 145 pace
bounce
variations like seam movement. thats all we need to look at.

height ideally minimum 5'8 5'9
not shorter though

 

[Farabi]

agreed. i am just going by examples i have seen.
135 plus on average
130 to 145 pace
bounce
variations like seam movement. thats all we need to look at.

the only thing I would say is drop that range to 125 to 135. There are literally a lot of pacers who bowled in 125-130 range and did really well, as non-intuitive as it feels, cricket can be a funny game.

I can’t think of any pacer with sustained speeds in 140-145 in test cricket with all the other skills. Dale Steyn maybe the only one I have seen in my living memory watching since late 90s.

Usually it’s high 130s that are elite level. If you watch Cummins, Rabada, Bumrah, and Starc, average pace is mid 130s and range is 135-142.
Hazelwood and Boland a touch slower even.

 

[kron]

the only thing I would say is drop that range to 125 to 135. There are literally a lot of pacers who bowled in 125-130 range and did really well, as non-intuitive as it feels, cricket can be a funny game.

I can’t think of any pacer with sustained speeds in 140-145 in test cricket with all the other skills. Dale Steyn maybe the only one I have seen in my living memory watching since late 90s.

Usually it’s high 130s that are elite level. If you watch Cummins, Rabada, Bumrah, and Starc, average pace is mid 130s and range is 135-142.
Hazelwood and Boland a touch slower even.

nha not even steyn. average speed for steyn was like 138. similar to bumrah.
for some periods of the game when pitch is flat and ball is old. he ramps it up to 140 to 145.

what i mean was average speed of 135 ideally with skill plus ability generate consistent lift.

can be reduced to 130 as well provided they can generate bounce off good length and have variations. dont need to have all variations but bouncer, in swing, out swing are yorker would be brilliant. slow ball and some other variations not necessary. although these days cummins bumrah and rabada etc are using all odi skills too in tests.

i think that should be the target. need to stop picking tulla bowlers who are express but cant last more than 10 overs per innings without clutching their backs.

also tulla express pacers above 145 to 155 still need bounce off good lengths. or atleast ability to move the ball via seam slightly. if they can swing then great too.

blind pace is useless particularly without bounce.

 

[BouncerGuy]

Abbas has been an under-rated bowler. Bowling in UAE was never easy but he still has 97 wickets at 22.7 average. Not that bad for a bowler with pace like him.

 

[kron]

Abbas has been an under-rated bowler. Bowling in UAE was never easy but he still has 97 wickets at 22.7 average. Not that bad for a bowler with pace like him.

I am impressed by him

Can he do well on flat wickets though?

 

[Nikhil_cric]

It'll always be

McGrath

Daylight

More daylight

Philander
Abbas
Asif


The gap between McGrath and the rest us ridiculous. And not just in terms of output . Ceiling was far higher than the other bowlers in the list

 

[Abid Z]

How tall is Bumrah?
How is he more effective that taller Aussie bowlers bowling in the BGT at similar pace?
How tall was Philander?

Every single SENA pacer is tall and some very tall, but rare few reach elite level. Bounce of good length is beneficial, but it’s not that big a factor.

If you read my post again, I said 135+ kph gets you in elite category but you can still be a quality pacer at 125-135 kph if you have the rest of the core skills.

The point is that pace is a weapon as long as you have L&L, Control, Variation. Otherwise it’s going to hurt you.

It'll always be

McGrath

Daylight

More daylight

Philander
Abbas
Asif


The gap between McGrath and the rest us ridiculous. And not just in terms of output . Ceiling was far higher than the other bowlers in the list

I don’t think that’s the point of this thread. it’s to highlight how these medium speed bowlers are so successful. Immaculate line and length despite some being completely pedestrian speed wise.

 

[Abid Z]

I am impressed by him

Can he do well on flat wickets though?

Abbas’s best spells have been in UAE flat wickets. (Obviously in Pak domestic too) In fact I seem to remember philander doing well against Sri Lanka in Sri Lanka, Asif did some spectacular bowling in Karach and I think from memory Mcgrath had a pretty good record in Subcontinent.

It’s not just height either. If height was so important morne morkel, Mohammed irfan, Steven Finn (and many many English bowlers) would be greats but they had quite short careers.

As you say 5ft 8 minimum is ok. Minimum speed of 125 is ok. The main thing is to stop the batter walking down and imparting the right level of backspin on the ball to get lift while maintains immaculate control over line and length.

The only bowlers who could regularly bowl 145kph plus while maintaining immaculate line and length were Shane Bond, Brett Lee, waqar and steyn. This is truly an elite Category.

But having a decent partner or two at the other end is vital to keep sustained pressure. This is why the Australia attack is so good.

I think Pak will go with Mir hamza to partner Abbas for Capetown.

 

[Nikhil_cric]

I don’t think that’s the point of this thread. it’s to highlight how these medium speed bowlers are so successful. Immaculate line and length despite some being completely pedestrian speed wise.

McGrath was not a medium speed bowler except for the last 4 years of his career. He was clocking upto 143/144 kph even until 2002/03.

 

[DeadlyVenom]

McGrath was not a medium speed bowler except for the last 4 years of his career. He was clocking upto 143/144 kph even until 2002/03.

Even Pollok clocked 140+

International Bowling Speeds

People are seriously understating these old bowlers v Abbas.

He is way slower than them and also slower than Khurram, Asif, Anderson.

I'm not sure how he stacks up against Vaas.

 

[Nikhil_cric]

Even Pollok clocked 140+

International Bowling Speeds

People are seriously understating these old bowlers v Abbas.

He is way slower than them and also slower than Khurram, Asif, Anderson.

I'm not sure how he stacks up against Vaas.

Fastest I've seen of Abbas is Lord's Test 2018 where his average speed was around 130/131 and his fastest was 138.xx kph.

He has never bowled that quick since.

Potentially, the likes of Kyle Abbott and Scott Boland could have had solid international careers .


They were just as, if not more, accurate as Abbas and Philander but also taller and quicker . But they couldn't break into their respective sides for various reasons

 

[Abid Z]

Many bowlers can bowl quick but they settle on a slightly slower speed to maintain line and length and control. I think the West Indians famously quoted that line when everybody was trying I break the 100mph barrier.

In essence it just proved the point that there was little to gain from bowling full pelt for 5 overs or so and picking up a couple of wickets but ultimately having to sit out and watch the opposition pile up runs as happened so often in. Shohaib or Sami’s career.

 

[kron]

Many bowlers can bowl quick but they settle on a slightly slower speed to maintain line and length and control. I think the West Indians famously quoted that line when everybody was trying I break the 100mph barrier.

In essence it just proved the point that there was little to gain from bowling full pelt for 5 overs or so and picking up a couple of wickets but ultimately having to sit out and watch the opposition pile up runs as happened so often in. Shohaib or Sami’s career.

But there is something special and exciting about watching raw pace.

Shoaib akthar no matter what was always box office material.

He was also a very skilled bowler which gets forgotten.

I rate him higher than waqar.

 

[Abid Z]

But there is something special and exciting about watching raw pace.

Shoaib akthar no matter what was always box office material.

He was also a very skilled bowler which gets forgotten.

I rate him higher than waqar.

That’s a different point and thread. Personally I just want a bowler to consistently take wickets for the team and have a long career at whatever speed he’s comfortable with while not leaking runs.

 

[kron]

That’s a different point and thread. Personally I just want a bowler to consistently take wickets for the team and have a long career at whatever speed he’s comfortable with while not leaking runs.

But he did take wickets LOL
Yes longevity was not good enough but 46 games is not a small number. He did well considering he was express pace. He had zero support from pcb who had no idea about work load management and his bowling support cast was mostly useless apart from asif for a few years.