How does the present-day Jasprit Bumrah compare with the likes of Wasim Akram and Waqar Younis?

[MenInG]

This is what Greg Chappel wrote:

Wasim Akram and Waqar Younis revolutionised reverse swing. Akram, with 414 wickets at 23.62, blended pace with artistry, while Waqar’s 373 scalps at 23.56 came with ferocious toe-crushers. Both were unparalleled in extracting late movement, particularly on subcontinental pitches.

Bumrah’s ability to reverse the old ball has drawn comparisons to this iconic duo. His spells in the 2021 England series and 2022 South Africa tour showcased his mastery of reverse swing, leaving batsmen helpless against late-dipping yorkers – a hallmark of Wasim and Waqar.

Dennis Lillee and Andy Roberts were the best fast bowlers I faced. Bumrah combines the best of both

The Indian pace spearhead combines Lillee’s ability to dictate terms and unsettle batsmen with the cerebral approach of Roberts. If Australia can best him, they will win the Border-Gavaskar Trophy.

www.smh.com.au

Do you feel that Bumrah is better/at par/below than Wasim or Waqar (in their respective primes)?

 

[Ab Fan]

Skill wise, Bumrah is a complete bowler with all the ingredients required to be a top tier ATG bowler in all formats.

Performance wise also, he has already contributed in test matches and series wins in Australia and was player of series in test series drawn in England 2021-22(5 test) and South Africa 2023.

The only weakness he has is that he is not a bowling workhorse like Kapil Dev or Courtney Walsh. Hence, he will not be a 400 or above test wickets bowler.

When compared with Wasim or Waqar, I think he has done enough to be rated above Waqar whose stats are inflated via minnow bashing. To be better than Wasim, he may need to pick 325+ wickets and maintain an average of 20-21.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

He has 185 wickets. Let's talk about this when and if he takes 350-400 wickets.

 

[RizwanT20Champ]

This is like comparing Rizwan and Sanju Samson - there is no comparison here. Ws are far ahead. Bumrah needs another 200 wickets to be in the conversation.

 

[DeadlyVenom]

He is on a par or above them at the moment.

But it's still the initial phase of his career we can only judge when it's all said and done

However he is tracking favourably with the greats for sure. Unless things go horribly wrong he will be up there with the best at the end of his career.

 

[The lone Ranger]

He doesn't have support from other bowlers and no help from batsmen either otherwise he'd have gone to even higher level

 

[mominsaigol]

He is on a par or above them at the moment.

But it's still the initial phase of his career we can only judge when it's all said and done

However he is tracking favourably with the greats for sure. Unless things go horribly wrong he will be up there with the best at the end of his career.

Par with who? Theirs a huge gap in skill and quality between wasim and waqar. Peak waqar doesn't come anywhere close peak wasim.

 

[BouncerGuy]

Wasim is ahead in the race but I will put Bumrah ahead of Waqar.

 

[DeadlyVenom]

Par with who? Theirs a huge gap in skill and quality between wasim and waqar. Peak waqar doesn't come anywhere close peak wasim.

Peak Waqar was frightening. He was like Mike Tyson, a complete and utter wrecking ball and he inspired fast bowling all over the world.

Don't let the words of Indian statsgurus fool and angry Pakistanis who crap on their own legacies fool you too much. They probably watched Waqar with their hands over their eyes while hiding behind the sofa because of the terror he invoked.

 

[mominsaigol]

Peak Waqar was frightening. He was like Mike Tyson, a complete and utter wrecking ball and he inspired fast bowling all over the world.

Don't let the words of Indian statsgurus fool and angry Pakistanis who crap on their own legacies fool you too much. They probably watched Waqar with their hands over their eyes while hiding behind the sofa because of the terror he invoked.

So 1994 waqar? Peak waqar is > bumrah. However peak waqar is still not > Wasim. Theirs a massive gap between these 2.

I can show you highlights of one delivery bowled by wasim in 1992 and it's unreal, I've never seen any ball inswing like that.

Peak wasim is something else.

 

[aboveandbeyond]

Imran was better than both Wasim and Waqar in tests. Also imran missed 3 peak years through injury which was a shame which would have further elevated him.

Imran wasim, waqar, Asif I'd put ahead of any other Subcontinent seamer.

 

[shaz619]

I see no comparison. Bumrah is bashing batsman with terrible technique’s and on top of that he isn’t box office to watch which is another important metric, his bowling action is an absolute eye sore. He has a suspect action to.

 

[mominsaigol]

Waqar at his absolute peak is still > Bumrah and both my brothers @TheSultan and @DeadlyVenom can testify as they've argued this topic to death.

But what's the question? Are Indian posters comparing Bumrah to wasim? Or waqar? Wasim is on another spectrum to waqar.

 

[DeadlyVenom]

So 1994 waqar? Peak waqar is > bumrah. However peak waqar is still not > Wasim. Theirs a massive gap between these 2.

I can show you highlights of one delivery bowled by wasim in 1992 and it's unreal, I've never seen any ball inswing like that.

Peak wasim is something else.

Wasim was a complete bowler. He had it all and I agree there is a massive gap between him and Waqar.

 

[Bhaijaan]

I am somewhat worried with all this attention and these adulations Bumrah is receiving. Just hope he stays healthy and focussed on his craft and that success and money doesn’t get to his head. So far, apart from his bowling he has shown remarkable maturity and professionalism in his conduct so I hope he continues that.

Wasim and Waqar played cricket at this highest level for 15 years and more and dominated both formats. Bumrah in his short career has shown that quality wise he belongs right at the top along with these greats of the game but for sure in order to get the same respect he has to play a lot more cricket and leave behind a greater legacy.

 

[aboveandbeyond]

I see no comparison. Bumrah is bashing batsman with terrible technique’s and on top of that he isn’t box office to watch which is another important metric, his bowling action is an absolute eye sore. He has a suspect action to.

Completely agree.

 

[DeadlyVenom]

I am somewhat worried with all this attention and these adulations Bumrah is receiving. Just hope he stays healthy and focussed on his craft and that success and money doesn’t get to his head. So far, apart from his bowling he has shown remarkable maturity and professionalism in his conduct so I hope he continues that.

Wasim and Waqar played cricket at this highest level for 15 years and more and dominated both formats. Bumrah in his short career has shown that quality wise he belongs right at the top along with these greats of the game but for sure in order to get the same respect he has to play a lot more cricket and leave behind a greater legacy.

These types of adulations are a worry when a player is 21. Bumrah is 31. i think he is passed the age where it can affect him.

 

[Hikaru]

Wasim is well within Bumrah's reach, if he gets 125 more wickets keeping his average around 20.

Waqar was a joke against decent opposition, most overhyped bowler ever. Lets stop mentioning Wasim and Waqar in the same sentence.

 

[Romali_rotti]

Wasim is well within Bumrah's reach, if he gets 125 more wickets keeping his average around 20.

Waqar was a joke against decent opposition, most overhyped bowler ever. Lets stop mentioning Wasim and Waqar in the same sentence.

Never rated Waqar he was useless, a memmory of him that always sticks around is Ajay Jadeja tattooing bharat mata ki jaye on him in the WC, taking his manhood in broad daylight lol.. He also went missing against quality oppositions.

However Bumrah is not in Wasims' league, talent and skill wise yes Bumrah is comparable but otherwise no. For Bumrah to be qualified as a goat he has to retire with 270-300 wickets at 20 or under which I don't think he has the time to achieve...

 

[Bhaijaan]

I see no comparison. Bumrah is bashing batsman with terrible technique’s and on top of that he isn’t box office to watch which is another important metric, his bowling action is an absolute eye sore. He has a suspect action to.

That’s quite an extreme opinion. I think any top fast bowling legend would be flattered to be compared to Bumrah currently simply because not only is Bumrah the best in test cricket but in every format he is a match winner and a difference maker. I think the only bowler in world cricket since Saeed Ajmal whose every over feels like it can change momentum either way.

 

[GoUgandaCranes]

I would like to see Bumrah play three to four county season where he plays cricket 5 days a week & bowls 20 overs a day on average for 5 months straight.

 

[sweep_shot]

I would like to see Bumrah play three to four county season where he plays cricket 5 days a week & bowls 20 overs a day on average for 5 months straight.

Exactly.

Bumrah's greatness can't be fully assessed until he starts to play more cricket.

Right now, he plays IPL, a handful of Test series, and ICC tournaments. He doesn't have a big workload. Easy for him to avoid injuries.

 

[sweep_shot]

Wasim with Bumrah. No comparison.

Bumrah vs Waqar is debatable. I still think Waqar wins easily.

 

[kron]

Skill wise, Bumrah is a complete bowler with all the ingredients required to be a top tier ATG bowler in all formats.

Performance wise also, he has already contributed in test matches and series wins in Australia and was player of series in test series drawn in England 2021-22(5 test) and South Africa 2023.

The only weakness he has is that he is not a bowling workhorse like Kapil Dev or Courtney Walsh. Hence, he will not be a 400 or above test wickets bowler.

When compared with Wasim or Waqar, I think he has done enough to be rated above Waqar whose stats are inflated via minnow bashing. To be better than Wasim, he may need to pick 325+ wickets and maintain an average of 20-21.

You don't need any of that to eclipse wasim

He is far above waqar already. Left him for dead.

For wasim, he just needs to help jndia win a seri3s or another draw in England and a series win in SA.

He has already won in aus twice.

I am talking about red ball only
Don't care for LOI.

Impact fear factor and matching winning ability matters way more.


Something Waqar never had away from home. Even wasim struggled I. That regard.

All those stat padding vs minnows dont mean much

 

[kron]

So 1994 waqar? Peak waqar is > bumrah. However peak waqar is still not > Wasim. Theirs a massive gap between these 2.

I can show you highlights of one delivery bowled by wasim in 1992 and it's unreal, I've never seen any ball inswing like that.

Peak wasim is something else.

No version of Waqar was ever better than bumrah.

Even Waqar's mother won't say he was.

 

[Itachi]

I would like to see Bumrah play three to four county season where he plays cricket 5 days a week & bowls 20 overs a day on average for 5 months straight.

Exactly.

Comparison shouldn't be made because unless that happens, we may not know whether Bumrah > Wasim or not.

 

[DeadlyVenom]

I would like to see Bumrah play three to four county season where he plays cricket 5 days a week & bowls 20 overs a day on average for 5 months straight.

This type of stuff shouldn't count for a players international legacy. Cricket was different back then, county cricket was full of a lot of amateur drunkards too

 

[kron]

Wasim had diabetes. If he dint have that he would have been the best ever.

Unfortunately he had diabetes though.

Still think for now atleast

Wasim
Then
Bumrah
Imran khan
Shami
Shoaib
Waqar
Vaas
Zak khan
Srinath

In that order. Best to

 

[kron]

This type of stuff shouldn't count for a players international legacy. Cricket was different back then, county cricket was full of a lot of amateur drunkards too

Most county players diet consists of meat pies, fish and chips, scallops, ice cream, maracas and booze. Yea it was a trash standard. No one cares. Even washed up rahane and pujara score centuries for fun there.

 

[Aang_The_last_airbender]

Bumrah doesn't have the career stats of wickets to compare nor does he have the bottle caps! The 2 W's trump Bumrah in both, while Bumrah has better SR and averages.
That's the difference.

 

[Buffet]

Is there a genuine comparison with Waqar? I don't think so because Bumrah is 2 tiers above Waqar.

During competetive cricket, if a bowler is the best bowler of his generation by a landslide then he is simply a going to be top 5-7 bowlers in history given we have played 5-6 decades of compteteive cricket. Lots of other pacers will come ahead of Waqar during his playing days itself. He is behind Bumrah by a large margin who is best of his generation.

Even Wasim had skill but his output was below his skill level. But he could at least use new ball and old ball both.Comp[lete package like Bumrah even if impact was less.



Test cricket was played by just 8 teams in 90s. SL was minnow till mid 90s.

Performance of Wasim and Waqar against the top 6 test teams of 90s.

Before some one comes up with quality of cricket argument, you can simply see Waqar was pretty ordinary against decent teams and lots of his peers did very well. Waqar doing poorly was not due to some mythical qality of cricket. It was due to lack of ability.

 

[Aang_The_last_airbender]

Is there a genuine comparison with Waqar? I don't think so because Bumrah is 2 tiers above Waqar.

During competetive cricket, if a bowler is the best bowler of his generation by a landslide then he is simply a going to be top 5-7 bowlers in history given we have played 5-6 decades of compteteive cricket. Lots of other pacers will come ahead of Waqar during his playing days itself. He is behind Bumrah by a large margin who is best of his generation.

Even Wasim had skill but his output was below his skill level. But he could at least use new ball and old ball both.Comp[lete package like Bumrah even if impact was less.



Test cricket was played by just 8 teams in 90s. SL was minnow till mid 90s.

Performance of Wasim and Waqar against the top 6 test teams of 90s.

Before some one comes up with quality of cricket argument, you can simply see Waqar was pretty ordinary against decent teams and lots of his peers did very well. Waqar doing poorly was not due to some mythical qality of cricket. It was due to lack of ability.

View attachment 148503

You missed out New Zealand and SL was no longer such a minnow from 96 onwards. I would say keep the stats with these two teams too.

 

[Buffet]

I know some one will bring Mythical peak of Waqar and claim that it's unparallel in history.


Waqar's peak against decent teams.

 

[jnaveen1980]

Quality of the wickets of Bumrah >

Is there a genuine comparison with Waqar? I don't think so because Bumrah is 2 tiers above Waqar.

During competetive cricket, if a bowler is the best bowler of his generation by a landslide then he is simply a going to be top 5-7 bowlers in history given we have played 5-6 decades of compteteive cricket. Lots of other pacers will come ahead of Waqar during his playing days itself. He is behind Bumrah by a large margin who is best of his generation.

Even Wasim had skill but his output was below his skill level. But he could at least use new ball and old ball both.Comp[lete package like Bumrah even if impact was less.



Test cricket was played by just 8 teams in 90s. SL was minnow till mid 90s.

Performance of Wasim and Waqar against the top 6 test teams of 90s.

Before some one comes up with quality of cricket argument, you can simply see Waqar was pretty ordinary against decent teams and lots of his peers did very well. Waqar doing poorly was not due to some mythical qality of cricket. It was due to lack of ability.

View attachment 148503

27% of Akram's wickets are 9/10/11
17% of Bumrah's wickets are 9/10/11
39% of Akram's wickets are 1/2/3/4
47% of Bumrah's wickets are 1/2/3/4

 

[atreus]

He is better than Waqar, I'll take Wasim over him for now.

 

[GoUgandaCranes]

This type of stuff shouldn't count for a players international legacy. Cricket was different back then, county cricket was full of a lot of amateur drunkards too

This isn't about stats, this is about era comparison & workload management & why there shouldn't be any such debates. The peak of both Waz & Vicky was wasted on useless county cricket & hence there's no point in the comparison.

 

[Buffet]

You missed out New Zealand and SL was no longer such a minnow from 96 onwards. I would say keep the stats with these two teams too.

Some one can exclude them for early 90s and include after mid 90s, but useless exercise. Top 6 teams are very good measure of how well you did against good teams. SL was certified minnows in early 90s and NZ was not really minnow but comfortably the 7th best team in early 90s. Yes, I agree that SL was no longer minnows in later 90s.

Waqar was nothing extraordinary against decent teams even during his peak of early 90s. If you want to see what he did after 1994 including NZ/SL as opposition then,

Waqar against non-minnows after 1994:

 

[Buffet]

Quality of the wickets of Bumrah >


27% of Akram's wickets are 9/10/11
17% of Bumrah's wickets are 9/10/11
39% of Akram's wickets are 1/2/3/4
47% of Bumrah's wickets are 1/2/3/4

Yah, impact of blowing away top order is way different than taking cheap wickets of tails. Also, tails were much weaker in 90s. If you pick 50% of wickets of top order then it's just way different in impact than picking bottom 4.

Top 5 impactful pacers when playing away in the last 55 years.

 

[Buffet]

He is better than Waqar, I'll take Wasim over him for now.

+1

Waqar is 2 tiers below from the likes of Wasim and Bumrah.

Waqar wasn't among the top 5 pacers in 90s. The 6th or 7th best bowler of 90s is never going to be in the same class as the best bowler of different generation. Wasim was comfortably among the top 3-4 pacers in 90s. Bumrah is comfortably the best apcer of his generation.

 

[DeadlyVenom]

This isn't about stats, this is about era comparison & workload management & why there shouldn't be any such debates. The peak of both Waz & Vicky was wasted on useless county cricket & hence there's no point in the comparison.

This part is true.

Players like Bumrah and other modern players are more fortunate they are in era of workload management, central contracts, rehabilitation and medical teams.

 

[GoUgandaCranes]

This part is true.

Players like Bumrah and other modern players are more fortunate they are in era of workload management, central contracts, rehabilitation and medical teams.

Post 99' world cup, Wasim opted to play Sunday league for a few months because it made him more money than anything available at that time in Pakistan. He had to quit after a while because it was too much & repetitive work. Mind you, the man was a superstar & was nearing the end of his career.

Financial security, workload management, & hefty presence of social media has changed the landscape of cricket entirely & that is why era comparison is an exercise of futility. That's my point in full, hope u have a good day.

 

[Buffet]

This part is true.

Players like Bumrah and other modern players are more fortunate they are in era of workload management, central contracts, rehabilitation and medical teams.

Agree. Intangibles are hard to quantify.

To get around this issue of players having different advanatges/disadvantages in different eras, it would be better idea to see if you stand out in your era as long as we are talkign about competetive era with good 3-4 teams.

Standing out against peers tells a story. Otherwise we may start labeling 10th best bowler of one generation above the best bowler of another generation based on intagibles and that makes no sense.

 

[ethan hunt]

Pre DRS bowlers were at a massive disadvantage. Tendulkar would get away with plumb LBW’s.

To overtake Wasim Bumrah would need to take 300 wickets and win an ODI worldcup i feel maintaining fitness and pace would be crucial.

 

[jnaveen1980]

Pre DRS bowlers were at a massive disadvantage. See how Tendulkar would get away with plumb LBW’s.

To overtake Wasim Bumrah would need to take 300 wickets and win an ODI worldcup i feel maintaining fitness and pace would be crucial.

No. There was a study that said only finger spinners got advantage of DRS. Not fast bowlers and wrist spinners. Plus seam picking was very common back in those days using foreign objects and finger nails. It is not the case anymore.

 

[Buffet]

Pre DRS bowlers were at a massive disadvantage.

And in the same era many thing went for bowlers. They could bowl 10 no balls without getting caught. They could use reverse a lot more than current era. Lifting seam was more common those days.

When all said and done, all bowlers play in similar environment with peers. It shouldn't be very hard to see what bowlers did compared to peer group in their own era. That eliminates trying to weigh the pros and cons of different era.

 

[jnaveen1980]

And in the same era many thing went for bowlers. They could bowl 10 no balls without getting caught. They could use reverse a lot more than current era. Lifting seam was more common those days.

When all said and done, all bowlers play in similar environment with peers. It shouldn't be very hard to see what bowlers did compared to peer group in their own era. That eliminates trying to weigh the pros and cons of different era.

Spot on. India lost a test chasing 120 at Kingston i think. But in that mtach atleast 6 or 7 dismissals were off giant noballs. Tendulkar was one of the casaulty

 

[ethan hunt]

No. There was a study that said only finger spinners got advantage of DRS. Not fast bowlers and wrist spinners. Plus seam picking was very common back in those days using foreign objects and finger nails. It is not the case anymore.

Seam picking still happens. Sandpaper, zippergate. Has always happened. DRS does make a difference.

 

[jnaveen1980]

Seam picking still happens. Sandpaper, zippergate. Has always happened. DRS does make a difference.

They get penalized when they get caught. Back then it was not the case. It was rampant if anything. Nowadays both in one dayers (where they use 2 new balls) and Tests ( where they have multiple cameras to catch you) bowlers don't get undue advantage. You have to rely purely on skills.

 

[ethan hunt]

They get penalized when they get caught. Back then it was not the case. It was rampant if anything. Nowadays both in one dayers (where they use 2 new balls) and Tests ( where they have multiple cameras to catch you) bowlers don't get undue advantage. You have to rely purely on skills.

May have been “ Rampant” , but it was no secret. The playing field was the same for everyone. Peer performance / Appreciation is all you can go by.

 

[RizwanT20Champ]

May have been “ Rampant” , but it was no secret. The playing field was the same for everyone. Peer performance / Appreciation is all you can go by.

Agreed, we should rate all players on how much they are appreciated.

 

[ethan hunt]

Agreed, we should rate all players on how much they are appreciated.

Performance

 

[mazkhan]

Bumrah doesn't have the career stats of wickets to compare nor does he have the bottle caps! The 2 W's trump Bumrah in both, while Bumrah has better SR and averages.
That's the difference.

The other 2 were genuine quicks and bowlee against some of the high quality batsmen of the late 80s and 90s

Bumrah needs testing on the machine used against ajmal I guarantee you he will be found out as a chucker .

 

[jnaveen1980]

May have been “ Rampant” , but it was no secret. The playing field was the same for everyone. Peer performance / Appreciation is all you can go by.

Starc is a great example of how bowler's effectiveness reduces without swing. He looked a different bowler when there is swing on offer. Imagine Starc getting away with sandpapering. He would be even more deadly. Ambrose and Walsh were probably exceptions in the 90s as they didn't really rely on swing. They used the bounce which didn't really require seam altering. Only in 2000 Waqar younis was caught on camera and got fined by the referee. Others were not upto speed with this because no country played tape ball cricket except Pakistan. They were well aware of how the onesided taped ball behaves. Infact i learnt from one of my pak colleague who showed me with a taped ball. They merely tried to mimick that effect with leather ball. They probably thought it was not wrong to do that. But it gave distinct advantage.

 

[ethan hunt]

Starc is a great example of how bowler's effectiveness reduces without swing. He looked a different bowler when there is swing on offer. Imagine Starc getting away with sandpapering. He would be even more deadly. Ambrose and Walsh were probably exceptions in the 90s as they didn't really rely on swing. They used the bounce which didn't really require seam altering. Only in 2000 Waqar younis was caught on camera and got fined by the referee. Others were not upto speed with this because no country played tape ball cricket except Pakistan. They were well aware of how the onesided taped ball behaves. Infact i learnt from one of my pak colleague who showed me with a taped ball. They merely tried to mimick that effect with leather ball. They probably thought it was not wrong to do that. But it gave distinct advantage.

Ok so your whole argument is that the pakistani bowlers were tampering with the ball and others werent?
Much like people claiming that Bumrah chucks.

 

[mazkhan]

Shoaib akhtar was banned a few times for his action he was properly tested and his arm was genuinely found to have hyperextension

No such test was done on bhaji , ashwin or bumrah

Have an independent body test his biomechanics and match action then we'll find out if he has genuine physical hyperextension and is it within the 15 degrees .

Ajmal was tested and he had no hyperextension he was just a plain chucker

 

[jnaveen1980]

Ok so your whole argument is that the pakistani bowlers were tampering with the ball and others werent?
Much like people claiming that Bumrah chucks.

Atleast two teams registered complaints. Waqar was caught and suspended for a match. It is not an opinion like the claim about Bumrah.

 

[mazkhan]

Bumrah hasn't been tested nor a medical report about hyperextension, even if he does have hyperextension for arguments sake he still goes over what the icc limit is of 15 degrees he's going well over 35 degrees that's an unfair advantage and basically a free licence to chuck

 

[ethan hunt]

Atleast two teams registered complaints. Waqar was caught and suspended for a match. It is not an opinion like the claim about Bumrah.

Dravid and tendulkar were caught ball tampering. Manoj Prabhakhar has claimed he taught his fellow indians how to “ prepare” the ball. Didnt make them any good now did it?
Dont be petty.

 

[jnaveen1980]

Dravid and tendulkar were caught ball tampering. Manoj Prabhakhar has claimed he taught his fellow indians how to “ prepare” the ball. Didnt make them any good now did it?
Dont be petty.

No. Dravid/Tendulkar did violate it inadvertently. It was not like planned sandpapper thing or other ball tampering incident. Nobody benefittied from it. Prabakhar i won't read too much into anything he says. We are not comparing Akram/Waqar with Zaheer khan here. It is with bumrah. So call out if Bumrah or any other current Indian player that played with Bumrah do it. Haivng said that Wasim Akram was blessed with rare skill. WOn' put him on par with Waqar. He is cut above him.

 

[ethan hunt]

No. Dravid/Tendulkar did violate it inadvertently. It was not like planned sandpapper thing or other ball tampering incident. Nobody benefittied from it. Prabakhar i won't read too much into anything he says. We are not comparing Akram/Waqar with Zaheer khan here. It is with bumrah. So call out if Bumrah or any other current Indian player that played with Bumrah do it. Haivng said that Wasim Akram was blessed with rare skill. WOn' put him on par with Waqar. He is cut above him.

Lmao indavertantly. Ofcourse it was intentional. Dravid and Tendulkar were caught cheating.

 

[jnaveen1980]

Bumrah is a humble person. He did have nice things to say about Akram/Waqar. His main focus is being a match winner which is where i put him on par with Ambrose. @Buffet stats clearly illustrate that. Number of fifers in away games against good oppositions

 

[RizwanT20Champ]

Lmao indavertantly. Ofcourse it was intentional. Dravid and Tendulkar were caught cheating.

Official version for Sachin is not tempering unfortunately. BCCI clout managed to keep it that way. We need to stick to official versions. Unfortunately Pak players have big mouths including Imran Khan. I am sure others did it silently.

 

[jnaveen1980]

Lmao indavertantly. Ofcourse it was intentional. Dravid and Tendulkar were caught cheating.

you need to read about the hwole incident then. Tendulkar did not accept he tampered tbe ball. Later on ICC cleared him of all charges.

 

[jnaveen1980]

Official version for Sachin is not tempering unfortunately. BCCI clout managed to keep it that way. We need to stick to official versions. Unfortunately Pak players have big mouths including Imran Khan. I am sure others did it silently.

Cleaning vs vigorously working over the ball with finger nails, biting the ball. My take is pak players didn't think it was wrong as it was an attempt to make it behave like one sided tape ball which no other country is familiar with.

 

[Stewie]

Bowlers with suspect actions and hyper extensions somehow never become proper legends. Murali, Shoaib, etc will never be considered as greats like Warne, Wasim, Marshall, etc.

bHUMRAH may end up in that situation as well. He does not get called out but his hyper extension is massive and it gives a lot of abnormal advantage to him. I am not saying any of it is his fault but its there.

 

[Stewie]

I also feel its a bit unfair to compare players from different eras like that. I feel cricket in the 80s and 90s was a lot more competitive and hardcore. Wasim and Waqar played against the best batsmen in the history of the game.

Right no, thanks to T20 cricket you would be hard pressed to find similar skill and talent in test cricket as we used to have back then.

 

[jnaveen1980]

Bowlers with suspect actions and hyper extensions somehow never become proper legends. Murali, Shoaib, etc will never be considered as greats like Warne, Wasim, Marshall, etc.

bHUMRAH may end up in that situation as well. He does not get called out but his hyper extension is massive and it gives a lot of abnormal advantage to him. I am not saying any of it is his fault but its there.

I do not think any cricket analyst use that as an excuse to put him down. He is highly rated outside the echo chamber of few people.

 

[Stewie]

I do not think any cricket analyst use that as an excuse to put him down. He is highly rated outside the echo chamber of few people.

Everybody is entitled to their own opinion. If the echo chamber is massive, it still remains an echo chamber, doesn't it?

 

[RizwanT20Champ]

Bowlers with suspect actions and hyper extensions somehow never become proper legends. Murali, Shoaib, etc will never be considered as greats like Warne, Wasim, Marshall, etc.

bHUMRAH may end up in that situation as well. He does not get called out but his hyper extension is massive and it gives a lot of abnormal advantage to him. I am not saying any of it is his fault but its there.

Why is Warne a legend and Murali not? Warne had so many dubious things going on lol and let's not get started with Justice Qayyum Report

 

[Stewie]

Why is Warne a legend and Murali not? Warne had so many dubious things going on lol and let's not get started with Justice Qayyum Report

You might want to ask all the experts and pundits about that. I already explained why in my post. I agree with their assessment by the way. Suspect actions based on whatever mechanism, reasoning, logic, etc provide for an unfair advantage to the bowlers. Warne had a lot of things going wrong off the field but his skill and achievements on the field are indisputable.

Same way as Asif is considered one of the best seam bowlers of modern era, his checquered character does not change any of it.

 

[ethan hunt]

you need to read about the hwole incident then. Tendulkar did not accept he tampered tbe ball. Later on ICC cleared him of all charges.

Ofcourse he didnt accept it, doesnt mean he didnt do it. He and dravid were caught tampering.

 

[jnaveen1980]

I also feel its a bit unfair to compare players from different eras like that. I feel cricket in the 80s and 90s was a lot more competitive and hardcore. Wasim and Waqar played against the best batsmen in the history of the game.

Right no, thanks to T20 cricket you would be hard pressed to find similar skill and talent in test cricket as we used to have back then.

Beg to differ with you there. Many teams were in transition stage at that time. SL/ZImbabwe were minnows for best part of the decade. England/NZ were in transition for the entire decade. Australia was also in semi transition till 1997. India was a terrible team in the 90s. Windies was also going through transition. Only right towards the end teams were shaping up well. Now we have Fab 4. Back then it was only Fab 2. Tendulkar and Lara. Waugh bros were a level or two below. Other batsmen you won't put them in any where near ATG category. 2000 had the best batting line up in combination with best batting tracks.

 

[RizwanT20Champ]

You might want to ask all the experts and pundits about that. I already explained why in my post. I agree with their assessment by the way. Suspect actions based on whatever mechanism, reasoning, logic, etc provide for an unfair advantage to the bowlers. Warne had a lot of things going wrong off the field but his skill and achievements on the field are indisputable.

Same way as Asif is considered one of the best seam bowlers of modern era, his checquered character does not change any of it.

Warne was banned for things that may have helped him on the field - he's passed on so I don't want to bring it up but makes zero sense to gloss over Justice Qayyum Report but go after a honest champion like Akhtar, and to gloss over Warne's "mama pills" and weather report issues and pick on Murali.

 

[jnaveen1980]

Ofcourse he didnt accept it, doesnt mean he didnt do it. He and dravid were caught tampering.

No cleaning vs tampering. There was a fine line. So he didn't agree.

 

[Buffet]

I also feel its a bit unfair to compare players from different eras like that.

Yes, it's unfair for various reasons. Stand out bowlers in one era can make a case for being compared with stand out bowlers in another era.

Waqar was not a stand out bowler in his own era.

 

[sweep_shot]

I also feel its a bit unfair to compare players from different eras like that. I feel cricket in the 80s and 90s was a lot more competitive and hardcore. Wasim and Waqar played against the best batsmen in the history of the game.

Right no, thanks to T20 cricket you would be hard pressed to find similar skill and talent in test cricket as we used to have back then.

I agree with this.

Bumrah has a lot of easy wickets due to the abundance of T20 hacks.

During Wasim's days, batters were far more superior. Bowlers had to work harder to get wickets.

 

[RizwanT20Champ]

Ofcourse he didnt accept it, doesnt mean he didnt do it. He and dravid were caught tampering.

We have to go with official versions though. Otherwise anyone can claim anything.

 

[RizwanT20Champ]

I agree with this.

Bumrah and modern day bowlers have a lot of easy wickets due to the abudance of T20 hacks.

During Wasim's days, batters were far more superior. Bowlers had to work harder to get wickets.

What hasn't changed between Bhumrah and Wasim time is how bad BD have been as a team.

 

[Stewie]

Beg to differ with you there. Many teams were in transition stage at that time. SL/ZImbabwe were minnows for best part of the decade. England/NZ were in transition for the entire decade. Australia was also in semi transition till 1997. India was a terrible team in the 90s. Windies was also going through transition. Only right towards the end teams were shaping up well. Now we have Fab 4. Back then it was only Fab 2. Tendulkar and Lara. Waugh bros were a level or two below. Other batsmen you won't put them in any where near ATG category. 2000 had the best batting line up in combination with best batting tracks.

The 80s and 90s and even 2000s had better test batting. The fab four of today are nowhere close to them. Your views reflect and betray your age. I will let you slide. Everybody is entitled to their own views. You are as well. In my eyes does not make it true though.

 

[jnaveen1980]

Yes, it's unfair for various reasons. Stand out bowlers in one era can make a case for being compared with stand out bowlers in another era.

Waqar was not a stand out bowler in his own era.

Generally these assessment is a combination of eye test and stat. Not just one. Former cricketers assess it is very difficult to face someone whose release point is that far outside the crease in any era.