How does the present-day Jasprit Bumrah compare with the likes of Wasim Akram and Waqar Younis?

[aboveandbeyond]

It's always hard to measure intangibles. But,

Where did they stand against their peers when playing away? -- Near the bottom.
Where Bumrah stands against his peers when playing away? --- Top by some margin.

Relative position against peers, simply raw numbers & impact -- Bumrah blows away all Asian pacers when playing away.



Relative performance of Wasim, Waqar against peer group when playing away

View attachment 148597

Makes a massive difference. Performing against sitting ducks, and Performing against battle hardened Test Performers who can bat in all conditions.

 

[Buffet]

Waqar at his peak can only be compared with Marshall, Bumrah is not there.

Waqar was not that great against good teams even in his peak. His peak is massively over rated.


Top 6 test teams during Waqar's poeak:







Pacers in match involving top 6 teams during Waqar's peak:

 

[Buffet]

Makes a massive difference. Performing against sitting ducks, and Performing against battle hardened Test Performers who can bat in all conditions.

Well, then you may subscribe to theory that 8th best bowler in 90s can be better than best bowler of current era. I think it defies all logic. We just have to agree to disagree then.

 

[Buffet]

You're a quality poster, one of the best here but I disagree with you totally.

You can't say: "for Waqar vs Bumrah we have to look at whether a player across a different era how did he rank across his peers, as Waqar wasn't the best of his era"

Agree that you don't have to be the best of your era to be compared but if you are not even among the top 3-4 of your era then we are stretching it.

Wasim was among the top 3-4 pacers in his era. He belongs in discussion, but Waqar doesn't.

 

[ethan hunt]

So, the last few years have probably been the hardest that I've experienced in my career. Batting-wise, in terms of the amount of movement that's been generated."

"You can see that in the way the scores have come down as well. And, you know, bowling averages come down, batting averages come down." -


Steve Smith who is arguably the best batsman of this generation.

 

[ethan hunt]

Also would make sense to add test cricket to the title. Bumrah vs Wasim in ODI’s is a no contest atm.

 

[aboveandbeyond]

Well, then you may subscribe to theory that 8th best bowler in 90s can be better than best bowler of current era. I think it defies all logic. We just have to agree to disagree then.

Also, another very telling factor in wasim waqar imrans achievements. The absolute Roads they had to bowl on at home. Whilst the wickets in India are very supporting for all.

 

[Buffet]

. Bumrah vs Wasim in ODI’s is a no contest atm.

Why do you think it's a no contest? If number of ODI wickets then it will never be any contest. Wasim will always have volume because players play 2 limited overs format now. No one is going to get that kind of volume anymore.

If it's WC games against non-minnows,









Wasim played in 200-250 era and Bumrah 300-350, and yet Bumrah ER is lower.

Bumrah has a far better AVG and SR as well.

Yes, I am aware of Wasim bowling 49/3 in one final, but entire WC record with AVG of 29 against non-minnows is hardly earth shattering.

 

[Buffet]

Also, another very telling factor in wasim waqar imrans achievements. The absolute Roads they had to bowl on at home. Whilst the wickets in India are very supporting for all.

That's a good point. But I was talking about away and it has no Pakistani roads in sample size for Wasim, Waqar or IK.

See below,

Less than 15 bowlers have 100 plus wickets with sub 25 avg in entire history.

 

[cricketjoshila]

Waqar at his peak can only be compared with Marshall, Bumrah is not there.

What were Waqars stats during his peak?

 

[I think therfore I am]

Far more superior then the 2Ws. Bumarah has one more than 1 WC for India. Not to mention Test series in OZ,

 

[cricketjoshila]

There is a big big gap between Wasim and Waqar.

 

[Rajdeep]

Also, another very telling factor in wasim waqar imrans achievements. The absolute Roads they had to bowl on at home. Whilst the wickets in India are very supporting for all.

But the stats of Bumrah is better than every Pakistani bowlers in SENA countries as well.

 

[aboveandbeyond]

That's a good point. But I was talking about away and it has no Pakistani roads in sample size for Wasim, Waqar or IK.

See below,

Less than 15 bowlers have 100 plus wickets with sub 25 avg in entire history.

View attachment 148620

Ok. Like I said quality of test cricket now, compared to then is chalk and cheese

 

[aboveandbeyond]

But the stats of Bumrah is better than every Pakistani bowlers in SENA countries as well.

Quality of Test cricket then and now is a hugh factor

 

[aboveandbeyond]

There is a big big gap between Wasim and Waqar.

Agree. For me imran was better than both in tests.

 

[Rajdeep]

Quality of Test cricket then and now is a hugh factor

Kitna excuse dega bhai? You are running out...now give it a break.

Bumrah does well in SENA bcoz quality of test cricket has declined.

Bumrah did well in SC bcoz Pak pitches on which Ws bowled were roads.

Sometimes it is good to be real. For example, someone mentioned that Wasim is much superior to Bumrah in ODI cricket and that is correct. But in test cricket and both formats combined, Bumrah is better than every bowler produced from Sub continent, at par with Marshal and below Sydney Barnes.

 

[Katwalindian]

Bharat-Pakistan best pace bowlers in respective SENAW nations (min. 20 wickets) :-


In ENGLAND

View attachment 148582



In Australia

View attachment 148583


In South Africa

View attachment 148584




In West Indies, Bumrah averages 9 something in 2 tests

In New Zealand, Bumrah has again played 2 tests averaging 47 with the ball

It's surprising shami have bad record in SENA countries.

 

[aboveandbeyond]

Kitna excuse dega bhai? You are running out...now give it a break.

Bumrah does well in SENA bcoz quality of test cricket has declined.

Bumrah did well in SC bcoz Pak pitches on which Ws bowled were roads.

Sometimes it is good to be real. For example, someone mentioned that Wasim is much superior to Bumrah in ODI cricket and that is correct. But in test cricket and both formats combined, Bumrah is better than every bowler produced from Sub continent, at par with Marshal and below Sydney Barnes.

Yes. Quality of test cricket not is a all time low. The BATTING. hence Anderson at 41 was still quality

 

[Amjid Javed]

Indian fans think bumrah is on a par with malcolm Marshall.

 

[Rajdeep]

Indian fans think bumrah is on a par with malcolm Marshall.

Nothing to laugh about it. You are unable to digest it just bcoz Bumrah is Indian.

So don't blame Indians but blame the biasness that is in your mind that India which you guys consider as a land of trundlers can never produce a good seamer. Pls check all the stats and contexts likes of @Buffet posted in this thread rather than rubbishing it with a facepalm smiley.

Rajdeep.

 

[ethan hunt]

Why do you think it's a no contest? If number of ODI wickets then it will never be any contest. Wasim will always have volume because players play 2 limited overs format now. No one is going to get that kind of volume anymore.

If it's WC games against non-minnows,


View attachment 148616

View attachment 148617
View attachment 148618
View attachment 148619


Wasim played in 200-250 era and Bumrah 300-350, and yet Bumrah ER is lower.

Bumrah has a far better AVG and SR as well.

Yes, I am aware of Wasim bowling 49/3 in one final, but entire WC record with AVG of 29 against non-minnows is hardly earth shattering.

Odi worldcups is the pinnacle because teams do not play full strength in bilateral Odis now and they are just meaningless. Bumrah if he had sealed the Ahmedabad final would have been close but Wasim with 500 wickets and the 92 MCG performance takes the cake. At the moment even Amir with that Champions trophy final spell has something to remember.

 

[Amjid Javed]

Nothing to laugh about it. You are unable to digest it just bcoz Bumrah is Indian.

So don't blame Indians but blame the biasness that is in your mind that India which you guys consider as a land of trundlers can never produce a good seamer. Pls check all the stats and contexts likes of @Buffet posted in this thread rather than rubbishing it with a facepalm smiley.

Rajdeep.

Personally I think India have produced quite a few quality test fast bowlers.

As far as stats go, your comparing across different eras, which is just senseless to say the least. How cricket was played in 70s, 80s, 90d to now is completely different. Back then you played on uncovered pitches, no limit on bouncers, better quality batsmen etc.

Now you have things like DRS, a limit on bouncers etc...

The so called "quality" of test batsmen now is trash. That's not to take away any of bumrahs achievements.

But by just looking at stats you telling me that every batsmen with an ODI average or strike rate better than viv Richards for example is a better player?

bumrah or any other bowler in current test era is no where near the skill level or quality level of malcolm Marshall.

I don't need stats to tell me thar either.

Don't turn this into a so called India vs Pakistan *** for tat.

I can actually be objective, you clearly can't.

that fact you think bumrah is on a par with Marshall, clearly shows you never saw Marshall or any of the great west indies bowlers. They would have a field day with the absolute mediocre level. Of test batting currently

 

[jnaveen1980]

Odi worldcups is the pinnacle because teams do not play full strength in bilateral Odis now and they are just meaningless. Bumrah if he had sealed the Ahmedabad final would have been close but Wasim with 500 wickets and the 92 MCG performance takes the cake. At the moment even Amir with that Champions trophy final spell has something to remember.

Nonsense. Bumrah cannot make up for below par total on a surface that is a batting beauty under lights. He still created an opportunity very first ball. Kohli put down the catch. Then struck twice. Mohinder Amarnath would be the best bowler of all time based on this filter as he won man of the match in world cup semi final and final.

 

[Rajdeep]

Odi worldcups is the pinnacle because teams do not play full strength in bilateral Odis now and they are just meaningless. Bumrah if he had sealed the Ahmedabad final would have been close but Wasim with 500 wickets and the 92 MCG performance takes the cake. At the moment even Amir with that Champions trophy final spell has something to remember.

Chalo ek naya logic aa gaya hai...ODI WC final performance is the key for greatness. Using that logic Gambhir was a better ODI batsman than Saeed Anwar?

Though I agree Wasim was a better ODI bowler but ODI cricket is almost non existent now. Bumrah will also skip most of the ODIs to prolong his career. Had he played a lot of ODIs, then this comparison would have made sense. Bumrah single handedly won India WT20 this year, starting from Pakistan game all the way till the final.

 

[Rajdeep]

Personally I think India have produced quite a few quality test fast bowlers.

As far as stats go, your comparing across different eras, which is just senseless to say the least. How cricket was played in 70s, 80s, 90d to now is completely different. Back then you played on uncovered pitches, no limit on bouncers, better quality batsmen etc.

Now you have things like DRS, a limit on bouncers etc...

The so called "quality" of test batsmen now is trash. That's not to take away any of bumrahs achievements.

But by just looking at stats you telling me that every batsmen with an ODI average or strike rate better than viv Richards for example is a better player?

bumrah or any other bowler in current test era is no where near the skill level or quality level of malcolm Marshall.

I don't need stats to tell me thar either.

Don't turn this into a so called India vs Pakistan *** for tat.

I can actually be objective, you clearly can't.

that fact you think bumrah is on a par with Marshall, clearly shows you never saw Marshall or any of the great west indies bowlers. They would have a field day with the absolute mediocre level. Of test batting currently

Well most of the comparisons here are cross eras like Bradman and Sachin, Root vs Sachin, Smith vs Punter etc. So it is not something new that is happening.

Also, if cricket was played in uncovered pitches...it only made batting tougher and bowling easier in that era. Uncovered pitches means more moisture and helpful conditions for seam bowling.

Yes there is DRS now but also lots of camera to catch any mischief. We all know things used to happen in the past when there were no cameras and concept of ball tampering was alien.

 

[ethan hunt]

Nonsense. Bumrah cannot make up for below par total on a surface that is a batting beauty under lights. He still created an opportunity very first ball. Kohli put down the catch. Then struck twice. Mohinder Amarnath would be the best bowler of all time based on this filter as he won man of the match in world cup semi final and final.

Wasim akram has 500 wickets on top of a worldcup. Mohinder Amarnath kahan say agaya.

 

[ethan hunt]

Chalo ek naya logic aa gaya hai...ODI WC final performance is the key for greatness. Using that logic Gambhir was a better ODI batsman than Saeed Anwar?

Though I agree Wasim was a better ODI bowler but ODI cricket is almost non existent now. Bumrah will also skip most of the ODIs to prolong his career. Had he played a lot of ODIs, then this comparison would have made sense. Bumrah single handedly won India WT20 this year, starting from Pakistan game all the way till the final.

Yes ODI cricket is non existant now unlike the Tri Series in the 90s which is all the more reason not to choke in world events like CT and WC

 

[DeadlyVenom]

Golden era West Indies bowlers would struggle in this era against fully padded up bowlers.

I sometimes imagine if Shoaib had played in that era there would have been chaos.

They benefited a lot by bowling bouncers at unprotected players.

Every era has it's pros and cons when looking at players.

But undoubtedly in this era Bumrah is one of the best.

 

[Amjid Javed]

Well most of the comparisons here are cross eras like Bradman and Sachin, Root vs Sachin, Smith vs Punter etc. So it is not something new that is happening.

Also, if cricket was played in uncovered pitches...it only made batting tougher and bowling easier in that era. Uncovered pitches means more moisture and helpful conditions for seam bowling.

Yes there is DRS now but also lots of camera to catch any mischief. We all know things used to happen in the past when there were no cameras and concept of ball tampering was alien.

Cross era comparison is a waste of time of time as there are two many variables to look at.

Both batting averages and bowling in different eras had different bars to what
was seen as good average elite.

A test average of 40s in 1990s was seen as good due to quality of bowlers in every team. There are now plenty of batsmen in current era who have much higher averages and are nowhere near as good players.

Also test cricket back in 70s, 80s, 90s teams didn't play in such careless manners, nowadays you see teams playing careless cricket with no application.

Marshall and holding are probably two of the greatest bowlers of all time.

Bumrah is nowhere near that level. Bumrahs stats might reflect better than holdings. But stats don't tell you everything.

Go look at quality batsmen in 80s and 90s etc. Look at test cricket now. How many genuine ATG batsmen are they

If you said Bumrah is best test bowlers in current era, then there maybe a fair argument to that. But I actually find you thinking he's as good as Marshall actually insulting.

It's the same if you compare spinners of 20 or 30 years ago to now, batsmen use to be able to just kick the ball away with their pads when batting vs spin, now you can't as DRS has allowed spinners to become more potent.

Same goes for all rule changes etc. In ODIs. Again another reason why cross era comparisons is pointless.

 

[Amjid Javed]

Golden era West Indies bowlers would struggle in this era against fully padded up bowlers.

I sometimes imagine if Shoaib had played in that era there would have been chaos.

They benefited a lot by bowling bouncers at unprotected players.

Every era has it's pros and cons when looking at players.

But undoubtedly in this era Bumrah is one of the best.

Exactly there are pros and cons to every era. So making comparisons is pointless.

Is bumrah one of best in this era? Yes

But this nonsense of being on a par with Marshall, holding etc.. its actually embarrassing

 

[mominsaigol]

Well most of the comparisons here are cross eras like Bradman and Sachin, Root vs Sachin, Smith vs Punter etc. So it is not something new that is happening.

Also, if cricket was played in uncovered pitches...it only made batting tougher and bowling easier in that era. Uncovered pitches means more moisture and helpful conditions for seam bowling.

Yes there is DRS now but also lots of camera to catch any mischief. We all know things used to happen in the past when there were no cameras and concept of ball tampering was alien.

No one compared these players directly to each other. That's what you're not understanding.

The bradman vs Sachin comparison was to illustrate why Sachin wasn't actually no 1 or a god that people think he was. Year by year someone scored more runs then Sachin, and lots of players like samga, kallis had higher avg or better performances against certain teams like aus then Sachin did

If Sachin was a god of cricket he'd be leaps and bounds > others but he wasn't.

Bradman on the other hand was leagues and leagues ahead of anyone in his era, literally no other batsmen came close to him.

Similarly no one compared Steve smith vs pointing directly, the comparison was that in terms of impact Steve smith definitely achieved way more then Pointing did in his peak years especially when you compare their performances across countries.

You guys are outright comparing bumrah to wasim lololololololol and using avg as a metric.

Insane troll, bumrah isn't anywhere close to wasim atm. Wasim has more wickets, more match winning performances, more 5 wicket and 10 wicket hauls and his avg is impacted due to him faltering a bit at the back end of his career. He also has 100x more memorable moments in both odi and test cricket.

Bumrah’s greatest moment is the t20 wc and certain test exploits.

Lastly wasim wasn't nearly as bad as Bumrah was against nz where bumrah is a certified circus clown against. Nothing will wipe off that horrific nz bashing that he recoeved in his own den or the bashing he recieved by the likes of falhar, Jason roy, Travis head in very crucial moments.

Wasim didn't get dominated until 2003 at the back end of his career where Sachin rided off againat burnt out pacers and Indian fans praised it like the dahli lama's.

Indian fans are as unintelligent about their own cricket affairs as they are about their status as a country.

 

[Buffet]

Odi worldcups is the pinnacle because teams do not play full strength in bilateral Odis now and they are just meaningless.

Yes, WC is pinnacle and taking out minnows makes it even more hard for players to stand out because there is no stats padding. That's why I did not share any bilaterals stats. In ODI WC, Bumrah has outbowled Wasim in WC in all metrics when you take out minnows. Wasim's record in all WC taken together is not earth shattering. He played lots of WC and his avg is 29 against non-minnows and ER is costly for his time. Even in that Final, he bowled 49/3 so clearly much easier to score than Bumrah.

Wasim records stands in ODI simply because he was gun in ODI for a very long period when ODI was played often by teams. That's a better argument than hanging into one match in WC when Wasim does not stand out in ODI WC career. Wasim can be termed as a better in ODI format for longevity with high standards when ODI games were played a lot and not for his over all perofmrance in WC.

 

[jnaveen1980]

Wasim akram has 500 wickets on top of a worldcup. Mohinder Amarnath kahan say agaya.

Ambrose has never won a world cup. That make him lesser bowler than Akram? or Alan Donald, Dale steyn. INdia had a daft captain Rohit sharma. Winning a world cup requires so many things coming together. Sometimes escaping with a point in a match where you get bowled out for 74 runs, below average team entering a final due to Rain.

 

[jnaveen1980]

Yes, WC is pinnacle and taking out minnows makes it even more hard for players to stand out because there is no stats padding. That's why I did not share any bilaterals stats. In ODI WC, Bumrah has outbowled Wasim in WC in all metrics when you take out minnows. Wasim's record in all WC taken together is not earth shattering. He played lots of WC and his avg is 29 against non-minnows and ER is costly for his time. Even in that Final, he bowled 49/3 so clearly much easier to score than Bumrah.

Wasim records stands in ODI simply because he was gun in ODI for a very long period when ODI was played often by teams. That's a better argument than hanging into one match in WC when Wasim does not stand out in ODI WC career. Wasim can be termed as a better in ODI format for longevity with high standards when ODI games were played a lot and not for his over all perofmrance in WC.

Yup Akram played in 1987, 1992, 1996, 1999, 2003 world cups. He is not even the best world cup bowler in history. Mcgrath, Starc come before. Statistically Shami is far better than Akram in world cups. Shami bowled entirely in two new balls


Shami in world cups 18 matches 55 wickets 13.52 avge 15.8 strike rate 5.13 ER
Akram in world cups 38 matches 55 wickets 23.83 avge 35.4 strike rate 4.04 ER

Shami is country mile ahead of him in world cups given how difficult for bowlers these days.

 

[jnaveen1980]

You shouldn't even compare anyone from single ball era with anyone from two ball era. It is way way harder these days given that there is no reverse.

 

[Buffet]

Golden era West Indies bowlers would struggle in this era against fully padded up bowlers.

I sometimes imagine if Shoaib had played in that era there would have been chaos.

They benefited a lot by bowling bouncers at unprotected players.

Every era has it's pros and cons when looking at players.

But undoubtedly in this era Bumrah is one of the best.

Off course their record would have been worse with batsmen having full protection. But Marshall was a stand out in whatever was condition at that time. He stands as the greatest test pacer for me.

Issue is people hyping previous bowlers using intangibles so much that it's futile to argue with such posts. One example in this thread,

"But this nonsense of being on a par with Marshall, holding etc.. its actually embarrassing"


----------------------

In which world Holding and Bumrah will be embarassing to compare?


Some posters talked about impact, memory etc.

What could be more impact and better memories for pacers taking 5-fers in away wins?


Top 5 pacers in history of cricket with 5-fers in away wins.



-----------------------------


Impact, Avg, SR , relative position against peers -- When everything puts you among the best in history then only intangibles are left which is neither here or there.

Like you and me think that WI bowlers record would have been less impressive with full protection, others may disagree without giving any reasons for disagreeing. It's better to take whatever players actually did and not get into intangibles otherwise we will be dealing with hyperboles only.

 

[DeadlyVenom]

Yup Akram played in 1987, 1992, 1996, 1999, 2003 world cups. He is not even the best world cup bowler in history. Mcgrath, Starc come before. Statistically Shami is far better than Akram in world cups. Shami bowled entirely in two new balls


Shami in world cups 18 matches 55 wickets 13.52 avge 15.8 strike rate 5.13 ER
Akram in world cups 38 matches 55 wickets 23.83 avge 35.4 strike rate 4.04 ER

Shami is country mile ahead of him in world cups given how difficult for bowlers these days.

We can't compare bowlers across World Cups because the format changes so much and conditions change too. Again we can only compare with peers.

Bumrah hasn't been the best bowler in the two world cups he has played. In one it was Starc who got bags of wickets and the other was Shami.

Akram was best bowler in 92.

 

[Buffet]

Yup Akram played in 1987, 1992, 1996, 1999, 2003 world cups. He is not even the best world cup bowler in history. Mcgrath, Starc come before. Statistically Shami is far better than Akram in world cups. Shami bowled entirely in two new balls

Best in WC? Many other bowlers have done far better than Wasim in WC. I don't think Wasim needed to be best in WC or anythning like that. He was a brilliant bowler in ODI in general. But he has pretty ordinary record in WC against non-minnows.

Avg 29, ER 4.3 SR 40 - That's not worth hyping despite one match in final and that was 49/3. Not like he blew away opposition in 10-15 runs in 10 overs.

 

[Amjid Javed]

People harping on about bowlers in current test era.

South Africa, West indies, Sri Lanka, Bangladesh, Pakistan don't have a single world class batsmen in their line ups.

England have Root, new Zealand KW, Aussie line up is vastly operated nowadays

All this woo ha over bowling average, 5 fors etc.. when the standard of batting in test cricket around world is abysmal

 

[Amjid Javed]

People harping on about wasim Akrams economy rate etc.. in ODIs. Do you think any Pakistan captain went out and told wasim or waqar, keep it tight boys and pressure gets wickets?

Swear to god so many poster on this forum are intellectual challenged.

Wasim never cared about keeping runs down, he was told to get wickets and win games, not bowl maidens etc..

Again the lack of context and brain cells apart here with posters.

Also do you think anyone Pakistani gives a **** about how many runs he gave away in semi final or final?

The guy took out Botham early. They practically won the game with lamb and Lewis wickets

 

[Rajdeep]

Brother @Buffet is laying the smacketh down with brutal stats...haha.

The posters who knows they can't debate objectively and rebut him with facts is coming up with absurd statements like quality of batsmanship was better back then...bla bla.

 

[Buffet]

Swear to god so many poster on this forum are intellectual challenged.

Wasim never cared about keeping runs down, he was told to get wickets and win games, not bowl maidens etc..

Let's assume that he never cared about not giving runs and simply taking wickets quickly.

He picked up wickets every 40 balls in WC against non-minnows.

 

[Buffet]

All this woo ha over bowling average, 5 fors etc.. when the standard of batting in test cricket around world is abysmal

And yet, we have best bowlers not able to have sub 25 avg when playing away.

Cummins, Rabada, Hazlewood, Starc etc all are averaging 26-28 when playing away against non-minnows.

 

[Amjid Javed]

Let's assume that he never cared about not giving runs and simply taking wickets quickly.

He picked up wickets every 40 balls in WC against non-minnows.



View attachment 148630

Again, you think any Pakistani gives a ****, when ultimately he was the reason. We won the 92 World Cup.

He also turned up in numerous other ODI finals.

How many of those bowlers with "better stats" helped their teams win a world cup? There will be numerous that didn't.

So feel free to keep trying to down play wasims achievements

 

[Amjid Javed]

And yet, we have best bowlers not able to have sub 25 avg when playing away.

Cummins, Rabada, Hazlewood, Starc etc all are averaging 26-28 when playing away against non-minnows.

Are you still crying? I clearly stated earlier if you want to say bumrah is best test bowler in current era there is a good case for it. At Same time the level of test batting around the world is ****. But you conviently ignore that fact.

My whole point raised was on cross eta comparisons.

Well done bumrah your the best at bowling at mediocre best batsmen in current era.

 

[Amjid Javed]

And yet, we have best bowlers not able to have sub 25 avg when playing away.

Cummins, Rabada, Hazlewood, Starc etc all are averaging 26-28 when playing away against non-minnows.

Apart from Joe Root and Kohli, how many elite batsmen are these bowlers actually bowling to?

Let me guess your going to show more "stats" to try and justify so called quality of batsmen around the world.

 

[Devadwal]

Brother @Buffet is laying the smacketh down with brutal stats...haha.

The posters who knows they can't debate objectively and rebut him with facts is coming up with absurd statements like quality of batsmanship was better back then...bla bla.

Yes he is exposing delusion pakistan fans who are undermine Bumrah because he is indian bowler and best in the world.

 

[Amjid Javed]

Yes he is exposing delusion pakistan fans who are undermine Bumrah because he is indian bowler and best in the world.

only thing delusional is Indian fans think bumrah is same level as malcolm Marshall.

Then again Indian fans are so sensitive they throw their dummys out at anything.

 

[moghul]

It's always hard to measure intangibles. But,

Where did they stand against their peers when playing away? -- Near the bottom.
Where Bumrah stands against his peers when playing away? --- Top by some margin.

Relative position against peers, simply raw numbers & impact -- Bumrah blows away all Asian pacers when playing away.



Relative performance of Wasim, Waqar against peer group when playing away

View attachment 148597

Just look at the quality of the fast bowlers in that era , most of them were ATG , now Bumbrah is being compared with current fast bowlers most of them including Pakistani fast bowlers are of very low quality. Same goes to the quality of batters in those days , far superior than today's. Waqar and Wasim had to bowl to some ATG test teams hardly any comparison with today's very weak teams . Considering all, Bumrah is the best fast bowler in the world today but in the era of Waqar and Wasim , he would have been another Indian bowler. I don't believe in stats only, otherwise an ordinary batter like Babar

It's always hard to measure intangibles. But,

Where did they stand against their peers when playing away? -- Near the bottom.
Where Bumrah stands against his peers when playing away? --- Top by some margin.

Relative position against peers, simply raw numbers & impact -- Bumrah blows away all Asian pacers when playing away.



Relative performance of Wasim, Waqar against peer group when playing away

View attachment 148597

Wow , just look at the quality of bowlers and the teams with whom Wasim and Waqar were competing , most of those bowers are ATG, compared to the low quality bowlers , including Pakistani fast bowlers , Bumrah is in competition with . No doubt , Bumrah is the best all format bowler in the world today but had he been in the era of Waqar and Wasim , he would have been an other bowler from India and nothing else. Stats are not the only things , other wise some ordinary batters like Imam and Babar would have been Pakistan greats which they certainly are not , not even close.

 

[Amjid Javed]

Brother @Buffet is laying the smacketh down with brutal stats...haha.

The posters who knows they can't debate objectively and rebut him with facts is coming up with absurd statements like quality of batsmanship was better back then...bla bla.

Why don't you name all the ATG batsmen or world class batsmen that are currently around.

Yet another clueless cry baby Indian fan

 

[Devadwal]

only thing delusional is Indian fans think bumrah is same level as malcolm Marshall.

Then again Indian fans are so sensitive they throw their dummys out at anything.

Don't know about Marshall but Bumrah is better than any Pakistan pacers in history of cricket.

 

[Buffet]

Are you still crying? I clearly stated earlier if you want to say bumrah is best test bowler in current era there is a good case for it. At Same time the level of test batting around the world is ****. But you conviently ignore that fact.

My whole point raised was on cross eta comparisons.

Well done bumrah your the best at bowling at mediocre best batsmen in current era.

Learn to have civil conversations. Intelletually challenged, crying ... give it a break! You are bringing down the quality of our forum by not debating the posts and focusing on poster.

You raised many points. You raised the point about Wasim not caring about giving runs and only about picking wickets, well he was not great at picking wickets quickly as well. I simply presented that and no need to get upset.

Simply said if you have argument to present then you can present. If not then we are just dealing with hyperboles like intellectually challenged, crying etc.

All teams were doing home bulling recently, but I have seen zero evidence presented by anyone that pacers are able to pick 5-fers easily when playing away or keep there average low. If you have then please present and we can all learn some thing.

 

[moghul]

What a joke , the guy is not even taken 200 test wickets yet and being hyped to be compared with some ATGs including Wasim and Waqar by some over-zealous Indians fans. I'm happy for them as they now found an opportunity to brag about fast bowling

 

[aboveandbeyond]

People harping on about bowlers in current test era.

South Africa, West indies, Sri Lanka, Bangladesh, Pakistan don't have a single world class batsmen in their line ups.

England have Root, new Zealand KW, Aussie line up is vastly operated nowadays

All this woo ha over bowling average, 5 fors etc.. when the standard of batting in test cricket around world is abysmal

That's exactly what I've been trying to get across.

 

[aboveandbeyond]

Don't know about Marshall but Bumrah is better than any Pakistan pacers in history of cricket.

Therefore, with your delusional narrative, Root very soon, will be Tendulkars superior

 

[Amjid Javed]

Learn to have civil conversations. Intelletually challenged, crying ... give it a break! You are bringing down the quality of our forum by not debating the posts and focusing on poster.

You raised many points. You raised the point about Wasim not caring about giving runs and only about picking wickets, well he was not great at picking wickets quickly as well. I simply presented that and no need to get upset.

Simply said if you have argument to present then you can present. If not then we are just dealing with hyperboles like intellectually challenged, crying etc.

All teams were doing home bulling recently, but I have seen zero evidence presented by anyone that pacers are able to pick 5-fers easily when playing away or keep there average low. If you have then please present and we can all learn some thing.

Wow your presented Wasim Stats to to try and prove some irrelevant points?

Do those stats show the real impact of winning the world cup? Also I mentioned he performed in other ODI finals?

You can flash all the stats you want, ultimately it doesn't give you the full picture of how wasim as a bowler impacted games.

Because your a stats nerd, you think showing a load of tables is only way to debate? Absolute nonsense.

Again as far as current era goes, I said bumrah has a case for being the best. Again did you pick that point? No you conviently ignored.

Also don't come up with this nonsense about level of posting, when most of you Indians on here start crying like little babies when any of your players are discussed. Stop acting with arrogance and entitlement.

I've watched test cricket since 1987 and I can tell you the current era of test batting is trash. Only Joe Root and kohli are of elite level.

Go back the the late 80s and 90s and look at standard of batting.

Wasim Akram was bowling to the like of Martin crowe, Graham Gooch, Lara, Sachin etc...

You've got bumrah, starc, Cummins bowling to 2nd rate trash.

I don't need stats, anyone with decent eye sight can tell you huge gulf in difference in batting.

But as usual Indians selectively read what they want then start crying as though one of their gods has been offended.

Take your nonsense and jog on

 

[Rajdeep]

Learn to have civil conversations. Intelletually challenged, crying ... give it a break! You are bringing down the quality of our forum by not debating the posts and focusing on poster.

You raised many points. You raised the point about Wasim not caring about giving runs and only about picking wickets, well he was not great at picking wickets quickly as well. I simply presented that and no need to get upset.

Simply said if you have argument to present then you can present. If not then we are just dealing with hyperboles like intellectually challenged, crying etc.

All teams were doing home bulling recently, but I have seen zero evidence presented by anyone that pacers are able to pick 5-fers easily when playing away or keep there average low. If you have then please present and we can all learn some thing.

He is losing it...your stats have thrown cats among the pigeons. These guys behave as if they have copyright over fast bowling and no one can surpass their great W's...LOL. They are bringing every excuse possible to demean Bumrah. Then he call me cry baby Indian when everyone can see who is crying.

 

[aboveandbeyond]

Learn to have civil conversations. Intelletually challenged, crying ... give it a break! You are bringing down the quality of our forum by not debating the posts and focusing on poster.

You raised many points. You raised the point about Wasim not caring about giving runs and only about picking wickets, well he was not great at picking wickets quickly as well. I simply presented that and no need to get upset.

Simply said if you have argument to present then you can present. If not then we are just dealing with hyperboles like intellectually challenged, crying etc.

All teams were doing home bulling recently, but I have seen zero evidence presented by anyone that pacers are able to pick 5-fers easily when playing away or keep there average low. If you have then please present and we can all learn some thing.

Root on a recent indian Tour, picked up a swift fifer in the space of 5-6 overs. Thst tells you the level of quality of bats in this current era.

 

[Buffet]

I've watched test cricket since 1987 and I can tell you the current era of test batting is trash. Only Joe Root and kohli are of elite level.

Only if you had started with this, you would have saved so much time for both of us. Thank you. I don't have much to debate with you.

 

[aboveandbeyond]

He is losing it...your stats have thrown cats among the pigeons. These guys behave as if they have copyright over fast bowling and no one can surpass their great W's...LOL. They are bringing every excuse possible to demean Bumrah. Then he call me cry baby Indian when everyone can see who is crying.

More like delusion to suit ones narrative

 

[ethan hunt]

Wasim had a better economy, over 500 wickets and a worldcup winning performance.
I may be biased and Nostalgic but Bumrah in comparison has about 130 wickets, a shocking chokejob in a world tournament final vs Pakistan. This is a pretty embarassing comparison in ODI’s

 

[Buffet]

Root on a recent indian Tour, picked up a swift fifer in the space of 5-6 overs. Thst tells you the level of quality of bats in this current era.

In every era you had some bowler doing this. Many bowlers in earlier era also picked some cheap wickets at time when playing away. POnt is not doing it for 20 odd wickets. How many average sub 25 against non-minnows with 100 test wickets.

Taken together we don't have many pacers averaging sub 25 when playing away in entire history including current era.

 

[Amjid Javed]

If your one of best in your era fair play to you.

At same time, also have a look at quality of players, teams around you

Before Indian fans start crying and start dummy throwing again.

Look at other sports, in boxing you had klitchko brothers dominate for 10 years in a weak HW division. Yet does anyone say these guys are better then Muhammed Ali etc..

A tennis player for example could come along and now win more grandslams than rafa, Federer, novak etc.. but they might do it in a era of less quality. So again if people made the cross era comparison it's pointless.

It's hilarious how Indians cant be objective. Then have audacity to say that the quality of discussion on forum is effected.

Feel free to go to ICF, cricbuzz or some other 3rd rate forum and dry each others tears.

 

[Buffet]

Wasim had a better economy, over 500 wickets and a worldcup winning performance.
I may be biased and Nostalgic

Apart from better economy due to being in 200-240 era, saying that is not biased or nostalgic. That's a proper argument to say why you rate Wasim high in ODI. I myself will put Wasim high.

 

[Rajdeep]

Wasim had a better economy, over 500 wickets and a worldcup winning performance.
I may be biased and Nostalgic but Bumrah in comparison has about 130 wickets, a shocking chokejob in a world tournament final vs Pakistan. This is a pretty embarassing comparison in ODI’s

Bumrah single handedly won India the latest T20 WC. Yes he choked in 2017 finals but that was his preliminary years as a bowler. Wasim played 3 world cup matches against India and lost all of them. Waqar got mauled by Ajay Jadeja all over Bangalore. So these things happen.

Having said that no one is saying Bumrah is better than Wasim in ODIs. He will never be better than Wasim in ODIs bcoz he will hardly play any ODI cricket in his remaining career. The discussion is primarily on test match bowling.

 

[Amjid Javed]

Only if you had started with this, you would have saved so much time for both of us. Thank you. I don't have much to debate with you.

Feel free to name all the other elite batsmen around the world?

You ain't debating with some teenager whose hyped up on T20 cricket.

I could write more on back of postage stamp then your so called knowledge of the game.

If you think the level of test batting in 90s and now is same your really are a lost cause.

 

[ethan hunt]

Apart from better economy due to being in 200-240 era, saying that is not biased or nostalgic. That's a proper argument to say why you rate Wasim high in ODI. I myself will put Wasim high.

People here are comparing in absolutes so i decided to do the same, realistically as Steve smith said a lot more factors need to be taken into account\

 

[Buffet]

Feel free to name all the other elite batsmen around the world?

You ain't debating with some teenager whose hyped up on T20 cricket.

I could write more on back of postage stamp then your so called knowledge of the game.

As I said, pipe down with hypoerboles and stick to points otherwise any older posters will pull this card. And you card is that only elite batsmen are Root and Kohli?

I saw entire career of Waqar.

Steven Smith is as top tier batsman as you get. He is better than Kohli and Root in test.

That's why I said, you should have started with this and saved lots of time for both of us. No point in discussing quality of batting in any era.

 

[Amjid Javed]

He is losing it...your stats have thrown cats among the pigeons. These guys behave as if they have copyright over fast bowling and no one can surpass their great W's...LOL. They are bringing every excuse possible to demean Bumrah. Then he call me cry baby Indian when everyone can see who is crying.

When did I say at any point any bowlers cany surpass the two Ws?

I've not even mentioned waqar once?

But its ok, you like to make scenarios up in your head at supposedly what I said.

How bout we stick to what posters are actually saying. Rather than you lying and bullshiting as usual.

There are bowlers who are better then wasim and waqar.

Difference is your acting like bumrah is some sort of demi-god.

Stop embarrassing yourself as usual.

 

[ethan hunt]

Bumrah single handedly won India the latest T20 WC. Yes he choked in 2017 finals but that was his preliminary years as a bowler. Wasim played 3 world cup matches against India and lost all of them. Waqar got mauled by Ajay Jadeja all over Bangalore. So these things happen.

Having said that no one is saying Bumrah is better than Wasim in ODIs. He will never be better than Wasim in ODIs bcoz he will hardly play any ODI cricket in his remaining career. The discussion is primarily on test match bowling.

People are talking all format here and the

Bumrah single handedly won India the latest T20 WC. Yes he choked in 2017 finals but that was his preliminary years as a bowler. Wasim played 3 world cup matches against India and lost all of them. Waqar got mauled by Ajay Jadeja all over Bangalore. So these things happen.

Having said that no one is saying Bumrah is better than Wasim in ODIs. He will never be better than Wasim in ODIs bcoz he will hardly play any ODI cricket in his remaining career. The discussion is primarily on test match bowling.

People are talking all format here and the ODI worldcup is the pinnacle of the sport in the Indian Suncontinent. I am sure you know that. Bumrah choked badly in the biggest game of his career in 2017 and thats a big blot on his 140 wicket career. I rate Bumrah highly and i think he has all the ability to set things right.

 

[Amjid Javed]

As I said, pipe down with hypoerboles and stick to points otherwise any older posters will pull this card. And you card is that only elite batsmen are Root and Kohli?

I saw entire career of Waqar.

Steven Smith is as top tier batsman as you get. He is better than Kohli and Root in test.

That's why I said, you should have started with this and saved lots of time for both of us. No point in discussing quality of batting in any era.

Steve Smith in regards to historical Australia batsmen is vast overhyped.

I'd rate batsmen like Steve waugh and pointing and few others over him any day.

how away ashes series did Smith impact that meant Australia won?

How many series did he impact his team winning in India? Or for that matter tests in Asia or UAE?

Smith might even surpass Sachin record for test runs, he's nowhere near the level of Sachin as a batsmen.

As per usual let's look at Impact of those runs, rather than just looking at stats.

Players like pointing, waugh were gun players that stepped up when it mattered most.

Smith has a high volume of runs, but if you actually then put that against the number of high impact series when he's been on losing side. That tells a different story.

 

[Amjid Javed]

As I said, pipe down with hypoerboles and stick to points otherwise any older posters will pull this card. And you card is that only elite batsmen are Root and Kohli?

I saw entire career of Waqar.

Steven Smith is as top tier batsman as you get. He is better than Kohli and Root in test.

That's why I said, you should have started with this and saved lots of time for both of us. No point in discussing quality of batting in any era.

Who you telling to pipe down

Wasim bowled to Haynes, Greenwich, lara, Richards, chanderpaul crowe, Sachin, dravid, Gooch. A host of top batting talents in Australian team in 90d, heck even SL had some high quality tear batters.

Your counter point is Steven Smith. Hilarious.

Funny how you want to talk about quality of posting, then tell me pipe down?

Jog on you arrogant, entitled cry baby.

 

[Buffet]

People here are comparing in absolutes so i decided to do the same, realistically as Steve smith said a lot more factors need to be taken into account\

I actually agree with Smith.

I was only pointing out that despite that pacers are not averaging sub 25 when playing away. I will not take avg of 20 and say that a bowler is better than avg of 22 of other era. Now, when difference becomes larger and given no one else is actually able to avg sub 25 right now, then it becomes a different situation.

 

[jnaveen1980]

Who you telling to pipe down

Wasim bowled to Haynes, Greenwich, lara, Richards, chanderpaul crowe, Sachin, dravid, Gooch. A host of top batting talents in Australian team in 90d, heck even SL had some high quality tear batters.

Your counter point is Steven Smith. Hilarious.

Funny how you want to talk about quality of posting, then tell me pipe down?

Jog on you arrogant, entitled cry baby.

You are talking about an era where 250 runs in 50 overs was a good score. Now Rohit scored 264 by himself lol.

"Greenwich" average 45 strike rate 64 Subhman Gill avge 58 strike rate 101
Do you know how cricket was played right? Real bullying of bowlers started after two new balls were introduced. You cannot talk down current players after seeing how Josh Buttler butchered pakistan bowling. He came into crease at 36th over ended with 110 not out. ABDV came to crease at 39th over and ended up with 149 not out. You really think that kind of butchering happened in those days. These batsmen are far far more dangerous than any players from any era.

 

[Amjid Javed]

You are talking about an era where 250 runs in 50 overs was a good score. Now Rohit scored 264 by himself lol.

"Greenwich" average 45 strike rate 64 Subhman Gill avge 58 strike rate 101
Do you know how cricket was played right? Real bullying of bowlers started after two new balls were introduced. You cannot talk down current players after seeing how Josh Buttler butchered pakistan bowling. He came into crease at 36th over ended with 110 not out. ABDV came to crease at 39th over and ended up with 149 not out. You really think that kind of butchering happened in those days. These batsmen are far far more dangerous than any players from any era.

So you think Rohit and Gill are better than Greenwich and Viv Richards based on the logic uve just provided?

 

[jnaveen1980]

So you think Rohit and Gill are better than Greenwich and Viv Richards based on the logic uve just provided?

Richards was an outlier. Not every team had Richards. Yes. Modern day batsmen are way way more dangerous than those players. Look at the sixes they hit. England scored 500 plus runs in a single day in a Test match in Pakistan. Batting is more brutal nowadays. SO you have to be an extremely skillful bowler to have good economy these days

 

[aboveandbeyond]

Richards was an outlier. Not every team had Richards. Yes. Modern day batsmen are way way more dangerous than those players. Look at the sixes they hit. England scored 500 plus runs in a single day in a Test match in Pakistan. Batting is more brutal nowadays. SO you have to be an extremely skillful bowler to have good economy these days

Thought the football forum was delusional, yet you indian boys take the biscuit.

Keep in the bubble of delusion, good past time.

 

[jnaveen1980]

Since two new ball and 4 fielder rule came into picture two world cups have happened. 2019, 2023. Check the stats fo those two world cups

That is an insane economy rate where teams scored 350, 400 for fun in the last 2 world cups

 

[jnaveen1980]

Thought the football forum was delusional, yet you indian boys take the biscuit.

Keep in the bubble of delusion, good past time.

Sorry you are extremelly delusional not to factor in the improvement of hitting standard. You can go back to your nostalgia era where batsmen score 20 runs in the first 10 overs.