How does the present-day Jasprit Bumrah compare with the likes of Wasim Akram and Waqar Younis?

[cricketjoshila]

Feel free to name all the great world class batsmen now

Airtight case? Yoh think your a lawyer and this is a court of law? Quit with your childish bakwas

Did it occur to to you, thars because most sides has world class bowlers. You reality are clueless

90s had world class bowlers. 90s had grear batsman. Why? Because pakistanis did well then.

 

[cricketjoshila]

The era in which pakistanis did well was the best. Since pakistan is a mediocre team now, since the best bowler in the world is an Indian, batsman cannot bat now.

Pakistanis will discredit a entire era of batters just to discredit a Indian bowler.

The desperation!!!!

 

[Amjid Javed]

90s had world class bowlers. 90s had grear batsman. Why? Because pakistanis did well then.

Pakistan weren't that great in the 90s, test form was up and down.

Typical defensive cry baby Indian response. How bout actually come up with a meaningful response, rather than responding like a spoilt brat.

 

[Amjid Javed]

The era in which pakistanis did well was the best. Since pakistan is a mediocre team now, since the best bowler in the world is an Indian, batsman cannot bat now.

Pakistanis will discredit a entire era of batters just to discredit a Indian bowler.

The desperation!!!!

you think everytime someone says something constructive about one of your players your going to throw your dummy out.

why dont you go burn a stadium down or smash a few tvs, that usually the behaviour of you sore losers.

Pakistan weren't even that great in 90s, so your whole "Pakistanis, are saying 90s is better excuse" is hilarious.

Go wipe your tears and comeback when you can have a discussion like a grown up.

 

[Amjid Javed]

Any got some tissues and a dummy for @cricketjoshila @Rajdeep @Devadwal

Absolute embarrassment the lot of you, that anytime someone wants to have a grown up discussion you all start acting like spoilt brats.

 

[cricketjoshila]

Pakistan weren't that great in the 90s, test form was up and down.

Typical defensive cry baby Indian response. How bout actually come up with a meaningful response, rather than responding like a spoilt brat.

The only one responding with nonsense are people who think batsman now cannot bat.

Any got some tissues and a dummy for @cricketjoshila @Rajdeep @Devadwal

Absolute embarrassment the lot of you, that anytime someone wants to have a grown up discussion you all start acting like spoilt brats.

Poor you. The only solace pakistani Cricket fans had was their fast bowlers of 3 decades back.

Since Bumrah is challenging that, you guys are throwing toys out of your pram.

@Buffet brought in stats.

Pakistanis have no response to it.

So the excuse is Batsman today cannot bat.

 

[Amjid Javed]

The only one responding with nonsense are people who think batsman now cannot bat.


Poor you. The only solace pakistani Cricket fans had was their fast bowlers of 3 decades back.

Since Bumrah is challenging that, you guys are throwing toys out of your pram.

@Buffet brought in stats.

Pakistanis have no response to it.

So the excuse is Batsman today cannot bat.

Oh so buffet is the gold standard and what he says goes?

Typical dumb Indian cricket fan response.

Funny how none of you clueless fans can name all the current world class and great test batsmen currently.

Only thing poor here is you still crying,

 

[Amjid Javed]

The only one responding with nonsense are people who think batsman now cannot bat.


Poor you. The only solace pakistani Cricket fans had was their fast bowlers of 3 decades back.

Since Bumrah is challenging that, you guys are throwing toys out of your pram.

@Buffet brought in stats.

Pakistanis have no response to it.

So the excuse is Batsman today cannot bat.

Put your dummy back in, best keep away from the horrible mean jelous pakistanis . The whole world doesn't revolve around India, time to grow up

 

[cricketjoshila]

Oh so buffet is the gold standard and what he says goes?

Typical dumb Indian cricket fan response.

Funny how none of you clueless fans can name all the current world class and great test batsmen currently.

Only thing poor here is you still crying,

@Buffet provided stats. You are providing your opinion.

Bring some stats to back up your opinion.

 

[cricketjoshila]

Put your dummy back in, best keep away from the horrible mean jelous pakistanis . The whole world doesn't revolve around India, time to grow up


View attachment 148651

Your test team isn't doing great.

The last pakistani fast bowler to take 200 test wickets made his debut in 1989.

Even T20 team is failing.

Solution: Cricket is bad now. Indians are bad. Let's talk about 90s.

 

[Amjid Javed]

@Buffet provided stats. You are providing your opinion.

Bring some stats to back up your opinion.

Oh I gave my opinion, it's a discussion forum you

Seen as though you think batsmen of current era are all ATGs and world class why don't you justify it? Rather then tagging onto someone's poor stats.

People can use stats however they want to suit their agenda.

You really clueless.

Let's be real no matter what any Pakistai or non Indian says about one of your players your going to find a reason to cry

Comeback when uve reached puberty

 

[Amjid Javed]

Your test team isn't doing great.

The last pakistani fast bowler to take 200 test wickets made his debut in 1989.

Even T20 team is failing.

Solution: Cricket is bad now. Indians are bad. Let's talk about 90s.

says the Indian fan whose team got humilated in WTC final.

Then lost a World cup odi final at home. Imagine a stadium of 90,000 arrogant, self entitled fans turning up thinking WC was going to be handed to them, then losing and showing no humility or applause to the opposition.

Then icing on cake getting hammered by NZ at home

This is the "golden period of Indian cricket

Gill is better Viv Richards

Bumrah is better than Marshall

Rohit is better captain than Clive Lloyd

Jadeja is better than sobers

What an absolute delusional cricket nation

 

[Fanboy375]

I asked you for an airtight case that these 90s batsmen were superior to the current generation of batsmen. Where is it ?

Well. We compare batsman batting ave with his peers ave batting ave.

 

[Amjid Javed]

Has Bumrah been included in india's 2028 Olympics team for the javelin or shot put?

 

[Amjid Javed]

Your test team isn't doing great.

The last pakistani fast bowler to take 200 test wickets made his debut in 1989.

Even T20 team is failing.

Solution: Cricket is bad now. Indians are bad. Let's talk about 90s.

must have been huge floods in India after bottling World Cup final at home, I guess BCCI were greatful stadium wasn't burnt down like 96 semi final loss

 

[shamaan]

The era in which pakistanis did well was the best. Since pakistan is a mediocre team now, since the best bowler in the world is an Indian, batsman cannot bat now.

Pakistanis will discredit a entire era of batters just to discredit a Indian bowler.

The desperation!!!!

Bumrah is the best bowler in this generation.

 

[Buffet]

Batsman today cannot bat.

In all eras batsmen have found it easy to bat in home conditions. When looking at pacers stepping up and having impact outside of home, you got to see how batsmen are scoring at home.

Plenty of batsmen have absolutely dominated home conditions. Some examples of batsmen avg at home since 2018,

Labu - 58
Kane - 73
Head - 55
Warner - 54
Root - 52
Jaiswal - 64
Pant - 56
Nicholls - 59
,,,
So on

Since 2018, Bumrah has averaged 19 away from home with SR of 43.

 

[Amjid Javed]

Bumrah is the best bowler in this generation.

Yeah along with Cummins he's best fast bowler in this era.

Doesn't mean he's greatest in history of game, like the whole of India is making out

But hey you can't have a grown up discussion with insensitive indian fans as you have to get on floor and worship all their players like gods, otherwise your an indian hater

Typical entitled, arrogant mentality

 

[Amjid Javed]

In all eras batsmen have found it easy to bat in home conditions. When looking at pacers stepping up and having impact outside of home, you got to see how batsmen are scoring at home.

Plenty of batsmen have absolutely dominated home conditions. Some examples of batsmen avg at home since 2018,

Labu - 58
Kane - 73
Head - 55
Warner - 54
Root - 52
Jaiswal - 64
Pant - 56
Nicholls - 59
,,,
So on

Since 2018, Bumrah has averaged 19 away from home with SR of 43.

batsmen in some case being HTBs does not make them elite or world class.

Neither warmer, labu or Nicholls are world class. Warner as soon as there was swing, seam or spin was a sitting duck.

Also why name Indian players? Is bumrah bowing to these players in tests? Absolute pointless mentioning such players.

Funny how not single Indian is producing a long list of world class or ATGs currently. But will happily post stats to suit their agenda

 

[Buffet]

Batsman today cannot bat.

Aus batsmen have simply bullied bowlers and dominated all teams at home since 2018.

If you take out India, then Aus record against all oppostions since Bumrah debute,

Aus batting average in Aus: 45 runs per wicket
Aus W/L in Aus : 20

Anyway you cut it, batsmen averaging 45 runs per wicket and team havin W/L of 20, that's simply a huge domination at home. It's irrelevant how Aus plays outside of Aus. They have absolutely dominated at home. This kind of record will be a dominating record in any era.

Aus at home agasint all teams( except India)


Against the same Aus team in Aus,

Bumrah has 50 wickets at avg 17 and helped his team multiples tests/series.

That's define greatness , step up and win series/tests against a dominating home teams. Even without support he won first test in ongoing series. Some one may say it was one test, well that what all other teams have managed to win in Aus since he debuted. It's that hard.

Having a filler 100 wickets against minnows or bottom teams does not make anyone great except increase wicket counts to 300-400.

It hardly matters how batsmen are able to bat outside of home conditions when talking about Bumrah. Bumrah has gone in dens of good teams and won tests/series. Talking about some bottom teams not having good bastmen is meanigless for this disucssion. No one rates Bumrah becasue he took cheap wickets against WI and he has not filled his tally with cheap wickets against SL/Pak. His wickets have been mostly against good teams and it came in batsmen playing in their home conditions. Most dominating performance came agasint Aus in Aus where Aus batsmen are averaging 45 runs per wicket with W/L of 20 against all teams except India.

 

[Buffet]

batsmen in some case being HTBs does not make them elite or world class.

They are elite and world class in their home conditions. Most batsmen bat well in home conditions and that's why it's been so hard to win tests/series in tough tours in entire history of cricket. That's why greatness of pacers in test cricket has always been about how you step up in tough tours. It's far harder to do well away.

As far as Bumrah is concerned, no one rates him because he averages in teens at home or picked cheap wickets against some minnows/bottom teams. That would be stats padding and looks good as raw stats. He is rated because he won series/tests in den of good oppositions. He is able to blow out batsmen who have been able to bat very well in their home conditions.

We are not talking about how Bumrah is able to do well against bastmen in India. We are talkign about how Bumrah is able to do well against batsmen in thier home conditions. It's mighty hard to bully HTBs in their home.

 

[Amjid Javed]

Aus batsmen have simply bullied bowlers and dominated all teams at home since 2018.

If you take out India, then Aus record against all oppostions since Bumrah debute,

Aus batting average in Aus: 45 runs per wicket
Aus W/L in Aus : 20

Anyway you cut it, batsmen averaging 45 runs per wicket and team havin W/L of 20, that's simply a huge domination at home. It's irrelevant how Aus plays outside of Aus. They have absolutely dominated at home. This kind of record will be a dominating record in any era.

Aus at home agasint all teams( except India)
View attachment 148654

Against the same Aus team in Aus,

Bumrah has 50 wickets at avg 17 and helped his team multiples tests/series.

That's define greatness , step up and win series/tests against a dominating home teams. Even without support he won first test in ongoing series. Some one may say it was one test, well that what all other teams have managed to win in Aus since he debuted. It's that hard.

Having a filler 100 wickets against minnows or bottom teams does not make anyone great except increase wicket counts to 300-400.

It hardly matters how batsmen are able to bat outside of home conditions when talking about Bumrah. Bumrah has gone in dens of good teams and won tests/series. Talking about some bottom teams not having good bastmen is meanigless for this disucssion. No one rates Bumrah becasue he took cheap wickets against WI and he has not filled his tally with cheap wickets against SL/Pak. His wickets have been mostly against good teams and it came in batsmen playing in their home conditions. Most dominating performance came agasint Aus in Aus where Aus batsmen are averaging 45 runs per wicket with W/L of 20 against all teams except India.

So your whole justification of performance is essentially all geared around Australia.

What series did he win for India in NZ, South Africa and England?

Because plenty of Indian fans will say player x,y,z didn't win test series in these conditions.

I dont doubt he along with Cummins are best two bowlers around. But the level of test batting around the world is very mediocre to say the least.

South africa are not a top quality batting side. England have been hit and miss they were a shambles under Joe root, and have only improved since stokes was made captain.

New Zealand have regularly handled Indian in all conditions in recent times.

So there has to be context, rather then just posting stats and using them to push your agenda.

Bumrah hasn't lead his team to test series wins in England, New Zealand or South Africa. The same way players in past have been said to have not won series in certain places.

 

[Amjid Javed]

They are elite and world class in their home conditions. Most batsmen bat well in home conditions and that's why it's been so hard to win tests/series in tough tours in entire history of cricket. That's why greatness of pacers in test cricket has always been about how you step up in tough tours. It's far harder to do well away.

As far as Bumrah is concerned, no one rates him because he averages in teens at home or picked cheap wickets against some minnows/bottom teams. That would be stats padding and looks good as raw stats. He is rated because he won series/tests in den of good oppositions. He is able to blow out batsmen who have been able to bat very well in their home conditions.

We are not talking about how Bumrah is able to do well against bastmen in India. We are talkign about how Bumrah is able to do well against batsmen in thier home conditions. It's mighty hard to bully HTBs in their home.

Elite and world class just at home is a home track bully. Stop dressing it up s some sort of yard stick of greatness.

Bumrah hasn't won a test series in England, new zealand or South Africa. So where exactly is the bullying?

Has he done well? Yes, has he bullied? No he hasn't, if he did India would have won some of these series.

 

[Fanboy375]

Bumrah is the best bowler in this generation.

In an era where test batting ave is declining.2010s and 2020s had lower ave per wicked than 2000s.

 

[amax]

First, we need to wait until he decides to retire. His numbers are still too modest to enter the greatness conversation. He hasn’t recorded a 10-wicket haul yet, and his wicket tally is still well under 300. Once he’s done, the focus will shift to his legacy—how he’s impacted the game and how his peers view him. He’s on the right track, but we’ll need to see how it unfolds. He could very well end up with a career similar to Joel Garner’s

 

[jnaveen1980]

India’s Jasprit Bumrah will go down as “one of the greatest fast bowlers to play the game”, says Australia’s top-order batter Travis Head as both teams prepare to face-off in the second Test of the Border-Gavaskar Trophy.

Hardly any batting team is capable of taking him apart. He's just outstanding, and India has a gem. They have one of the greatest bowlers that have ever played the game. - Brian Lara

He is greatest bowler of all time - Kerry o Keefe

Bumrah could go down as "best fast bowler of all time" - Maxwell

He's the best all-format bowler in the world, bar none," - Nasser Hussain


Opinion from these so called "cricket fans" won't change how Bumrah is viewed by people who actually played the game at the highest level.

 

[Fanboy375]

In an era where test batting ave is declining.2010s and 2020s had lower ave per wicked than 2000s.View attachment 148657View attachment 148656

Plus decline in ave run per wickets in home games in 3 eras

 

[mominsaigol]

India’s Jasprit Bumrah will go down as “one of the greatest fast bowlers to play the game”, says Australia’s top-order batter Travis Head as both teams prepare to face-off in the second Test of the Border-Gavaskar Trophy.

Hardly any batting team is capable of taking him apart. He's just outstanding, and India has a gem. They have one of the greatest bowlers that have ever played the game. - Brian Lara

He is greatest bowler of all time - Kerry o Keefe

Bumrah could go down as "best fast bowler of all time" - Maxwell

He's the best all-format bowler in the world, bar none," - Nasser Hussain


Opinion from these so called "cricket fans" won't change how Bumrah is viewed by people who actually played the game at the highest level.

Anil Kumble: Rizwan is top 3 cricketers in the world

 

[shamaan]

Yeah along with Cummins he's best fast bowler in this era.

Doesn't mean he's greatest in history of game, like the whole of India is making out

But hey you can't have a grown up discussion with insensitive indian fans as you have to get on floor and worship all their players like gods, otherwise your an indian hater

Typical entitled, arrogant mentality

Yes Cummings is proberly just slightly behind and he isnt the greatest in history I agree.

 

[jnaveen1980]

Anil Kumble: Rizwan is top 3 cricketers in the world

I don't think anyone is unanimous like they are with Bumrah. A random fan in a cricket forum with a known biased view has more credibility? lol

 

[Buffet]

So your whole justification of performance is essentially all geared around Australia.

What series did he win for India in NZ, South Africa and England?

He helped his team to draw series in SA and Eng. He has won tests in SA and Eng.

Top 5 teams of Bumrah's era has been Ind, Aus, Eng, NZ and SA.

Bumrah bowling record involving top 5 teams: 157 test wickets avg 21 [ most of it came in den of opposition and all oppostiions had plenty of HTBs]


Winning tests or series is not all about Bumrah. You got to have some support. Main thing is him performing well collectively against top 5 teams in their dens. Hadlee had very little support but I rate him high. You may not take your team across the line all the time no matter how brilliant you are, but you can sure do well in tough tours. You get rated high even if your team loses as long as you perform well.

Since HTB's have always been present in all era and it's been hard to do well away, a quick short cut is to see how well Bumrah did when playing away.

All pacers playing away: Not just match involving top 5 teams.



I won't simply rank bowlers according to avg in this list, but it's a good indication of their quality. All of them had to face many HTBs of their eras. Some played with a bit flatter tracks than what we see in last few years. So all averages can't be compared apple to apple.

But when you are averaging in 19-20 and mostly playing against better teams in their homes then you belong in top tier of pacers. It does not mean that you are the best in history. For that another 100 wickets will be needed with similar output. You can't be termed as the best in history with 190 wickets no matter how great those 190 wickets were. Mashall is gold standard for pacer for me who had ability to run through batting sides in all conditions. But Bumrah does belong in the same class without longevity for now. Nothing to feel offended about this.

As we can see only 10-11 bowlers have averged below 25 when playing away in the last 55 years of history. Every single one of them belong among the top tier of pacers.

If away average of Bumrah was 24.9 then some debate about pitch or batting etc might have been warrnated, but when he is averaging in teens , it's just illogical to down play his average.

 

[Amjid Javed]

Just looking at bowling stats you could say that Cummins is on a par with mcgrath. Rabada on a par with Donald / steyn etc..

Reality Is mcgrath, Donald, Steyn all played against a large group of quality batsmen

Yet if you mention an Indian bowler and use same logic, it's world war 3, Pakistanis are jealous, everyone hates India

Any time a constructive comment is made its either dummies out or time of the month for Indian fans

 

[Buffet]

So your whole justification of performance is essentially all geared around Australia.

Nah, he has many away wins. Aus was just too dominant so pointed it out.

5-fers in win against non-minnows - Top 5 in history

 

[Buffet]

Just looking at bowling stats you could say that Cummins is on a par with mcgrath.

No you can't make that comment. No one is so illogical to take home dominance for pacers and rank them with avg.

Pacers greatness is always based on their away record against non-minnows.

McGrath away Avg: 21.50
Cummins away Avg: 25.77

You will also see if they had abilty to run through good sides in their den. See above post about 5-fers in win against non-minnows - Top 5 in history.

Steyn, Donald, McGrath had ability to do well in den of strong opposition , much more than Cummins and Rabada. Away avg of 25 agasint non-minnows is actually fantastic becasue only 10-11 bowlers in entire history have it with 100 plus wickets. So Cummins is not par with McGrath, but go down as one of the greats of game.

 

[Amjid Javed]

He helped his team to draw series in SA and Eng. He has won tests in SA and Eng.

Top 5 teams of Bumrah's era has been Ind, Aus, Eng, NZ and SA.

Bumrah bowling record involving top 5 teams: 157 test wickets avg 21 [ most of it came in den of opposition and all oppostiions had plenty of HTBs]


Winning tests or series is not all about Bumrah. You got to have some support. Main thing is him performing well collectively against top 5 teams in their dens. Hadlee had very little support but I rate him high. You may not take your team across the line all the time no matter how brilliant you are, but you can sure do well in tough tours. You get rated high even if your team loses as long as you perform well.

Since HTB's have always been present in all era and it's been hard to do well away, a quick short cut is to see how well Bumrah did when playing away.

All pacers playing away: Not just match involving top 5 teams.

View attachment 148658

I won't simply rank bowlers according to avg in this list, but it's a good indication of their quality. All of them had to face many HTBs of their eras. Some played with a bit flatter tracks than what we see in last few years. So all averages can't be compared apple to apple.

But when you are averaging in 19-20 and mostly playing against better teams in their homes then you belong in top tier of pacers. It does not mean that you are the best in history. For that another 100 wickets will be needed with similar output. You can't be termed as the best in history with 190 wickets no matter how great those 190 wickets were. Mashall is gold standard for pacer for me who had ability to run through batting sides in all conditions. But Bumrah does belong in the same class without longevity for now. Nothing to feel offended about this.

As we can see only 10-11 bowlers have averged below 25 when playing away in the last 55 years of history. Every single one of them belong among the top tier of pacers.

If away average of Bumrah was 24.9 then some debate about pitch or batting etc might have been warrnated, but when he is averaging in teens , it's just illogical to down play his average.

So when other bowlers Don't win tests in Australia a big bhangra festival is made about it By indians, that bowlers are failures. Like Australia is the only place that bowlers have to perform.

Also now all off a sudden if a single Indian bowler doesn't win a tests, it's not on just him. But for example it's a pakistani bowler, then they are over rated. This is the hypocrisy you get from Indian fans, pick and choose what they think are valid contributions and what aren't.
.
As far as bumrah career so far, yeah it looks great. But other quicks have had good starts to their careers, and through playing so much cricket, injuries etc. Players rarely sustain things over a longer period of time.

It was Indian fans who mentioned Marshalls name as comparison, then used your stats as some sort of yard stick of greatness. So right now, he's nowhere near that level, so it's a silly comparison to say the least. A bowler would need to have atleast 300 test wickets to enter the conversation, a lot of bowlers at top of lists performed for atleast 10 years plus. So if he sustains this record fair play to him. But the quality of test batting hes going to play against is only going to get worse. South Africa have no world class batsmen. Australia have no new quality batsmen coming through. So essentially then looking at England and New Zealand to see if the produce any.

Bumrah can only play against what is infromt of him, same goes for Cummins. Rabada etc.. but the quality of test batting is atrocious so wouldn't put any of these 3 players down as an ATG come end of their careers

 

[Amjid Javed]

No you can't make that comment. No one is so illogical to take home dominance for pacers and rank them with avg.

Pacers greatness is always based on their away record against non-minnows.

McGrath away Avg: 21.50
Cummins away Avg: 25.77

You will also see if they had abilty to run through good sides in their den. See above post about 5-fers in win against non-minnows - Top 5 in history.

Steyn, Donald, McGrath had ability to do well in den of strong opposition , much more than Cummins and Rabada. Away avg of 25 agasint non-minnows is actually fantastic becasue only 10-11 bowlers in entire history have it with 100 plus wickets. So Cummins is not par with McGrath, but go down as one of the greats of game.

Exactly my point bowlers in 90s and 2000s bowled against better players, also performed better against them

So exactly why I said that overhyping current bowlers to same level is pointless and silly. Current batsmen are a shambles, a few HTBs who have achived not much to speak off in entire careers is why I will never rate any quicks or spinners in current era as highly as others.

 

[mominsaigol]

I don't think anyone is unanimous like they are with Bumrah. A random fan in a cricket forum with a known biased view has more credibility? lol

Lol whatever floats your boat.

 

[jnaveen1980]

Batsmen in the 80s/90s were better they faced better bowlers.. and 80s/90s bowlers were better because they bowled to better batters. It is cute to live in denial with this line of argument.

 

[Amjid Javed]

Batsmen in the 80s/90s were better they faced better bowlers.. and 80s/90s bowlers were better because they bowled to better batters. It is cute to live in denial with this line of argument.

Why don't you name all the ATG and elite batsmen in every test side currently.

Typical Indian fan response. Because you think one of your demi-gods is offended and you will go to hell if you ever say something constructive about one of your players.

 

[Amjid Javed]

Batsmen in the 80s/90s were better they faced better bowlers.. and 80s/90s bowlers were better because they bowled to better batters. It is cute to live in denial with this line of argument.

So your saying current Indian batsmen are playing against better bowlers then Sachin played against in 1990s? Let's see your honest or if the usual blind nonsense is spouted

 

[jnaveen1980]

Why don't you name all the ATG and elite batsmen in every test side currently.

Typical Indian fan response. Because you think one of your demi-gods is offended and you will go to hell if you ever say something constructive about one of your players.

I am not saying anything. lol i don't take opinions on forum seriously. Just making a comment.

 

[jnaveen1980]

So your saying current Indian batsmen are playing against better bowlers then Sachin played against in 1990s? Let's see your honest or if the usual blind nonsense is spouted

I am not saying anything. You are the one who is saying that. Just blanket judgement of entire era. There are some teams score 800 runs even in this era. Score 500 runs in a single day . Just saying.

 

[Amjid Javed]

I am not saying anything. You are the one who is saying that. Just blanket judgement of entire era. There are some teams score 800 runs even in this era. Score 500 runs in a single day . Just saying.

Test cricket has evolved all the time and each era had its pros and cons.

For example look at how many wickets Warne, kumble, murali etc.. took without DRS. In an era where at times batsmen could just block with bat n pad together and not be given out. Now spinners get wickets galore due to DRS, and this implementation has meant batsmen have had to play differently.

Same goes for fast bowlers in past compared to now. Teams back in 70s, 80s, 90s were happy playing out draws. Now test cricket is played in a more carefree reckless at times fashion to try and get positive results.

The quality of batting getting progressively worse in tests. Also look at what technology and planning teams can put in now compared to the past

This is why there are so many variables to look at that comparing eras is pointless, when the playing conditions, rules etc.. aren't the same.

 

[RexRex]

Batsmen in the 80s/90s were better they faced better bowlers.. and 80s/90s bowlers were better because they bowled to better batters. It is cute to live in denial with this line of argument.

Like I said in another thread, Amjid is just upset that his kids prefer watching Bumrah clips on youtube rather than old highlights of Wasim & Waqar. His actual arguments on this topic are irrational and frankly .. embarrassingly circular.

 

[jnaveen1980]

Test cricket has evolved all the time and each era had its pros and cons.

For example look at how many wickets Warne, kumble, murali etc.. took without DRS. In an era where at times batsmen could just block with bat n pad together and not be given out. Now spinners get wickets galore due to DRS, and this implementation has meant batsmen have had to play differently.

Same goes for fast bowlers in past compared to now. Teams back in 70s, 80s, 90s were happy playing out draws. Now test cricket is played in a more carefree reckless at times fashion to try and get positive results.

The quality of batting getting progressively worse in tests. Also look at what technology and planning teams can put in now compared to the past

This is why there are so many variables to look at that comparing eras is pointless, when the playing conditions, rules etc.. aren't the same.

There was a study about DRS. THat found out DRS benefitted finger spinners. Not so much leg spinners and fast bowlers. If anything fast bowlers got away with some incorrect leg before in the years gone by. It goes both ways. Tendulkar had several terrible decisions in that era.

Second of all there were noballs that were not monitored. India lost a test in Windies precisely due to that. 5 Indian dismissals were that of giant no balls. Tendulkar once. Sidhu twice. And two other top order dismissals. Bowlers had enough rest back in those days. They had rest day up to mid 90s. They had no leagues to participate. They had no T20 tournaments which once every two years.Apart from fixed tournament in Sharjah there was hardly any workload. There are more tests nowadays. Tendulkar played a mere 70 tests in first 10 years. Root has played 140 tests in 10 years. It is insanely difficult to maintain fitness and do well across the formats. On flat pitches they were no different. Basit Ali tharshing Ambrose and co at Sharjah is an example. If anything current bowlers are more equipped to bowl well on flat pitch as they hone their skills for 3 formats.

Watch how Basit ALi corss batting Ambrose for six lol I know Kaluwitharan doing the same to Ambrose. If the same bowlers bowl in this era against ultra aggressive batsmen they will not find it easy. They have to come up with different skill.

Second thing back then every team had one or two bowler who would bowl at 125k or something. The support bowlers would be absolutely crap. You have Mcgrath. Take him out. Their bowling was failing. 2005 series was an example. 2004 India absolutely dominated Australia apart from one innings. This was when Australia was in the middle of an ATG side. Nowadays support bowlers come up with better plans.

 

[jnaveen1980]

IN every era you have good bowlers, bad bowlers, good batsmen, bad batsmen. Each era has its own unique challenges. Saying this era has bad batsmen and 90s had some ATG batsmen is dishonest opinion. I have seen 90s era i know how the batsmen in the 90s. There were so many substandard batsmen in that era.

 

[Amjid Javed]

Like I said in another thread, Amjid is just upset that his kids prefer watching Bumrah clips on youtube rather than old highlights of Wasim & Waqar. His actual arguments on this topic are irrational and frankly .. embarrassingly circular.

As I mentioned before I don't have kids.
Also if I didn't I wudnt subject them to watching a Indian throwing a javelin or a shot put.

When bumrah retires he can become a darts player, maybe even become indias 1st ever darts champion

 

[Buffet]

So when other bowlers Don't win tests in Australia a big bhangra festival is made about it By indians, that bowlers are failures.

It's wrong to downplay any bowler just because they did not win against Aus as long as they did step up against other good teams. In fact, not able to win is not that huge factor if they are playing with poor team. But not able to perform should be considered for everyone.

 

[jnaveen1980]

Kapil dev took 96 wickets in the 1980s at 24 average against West Indies. The ATG side. There won't be many in India that will consider Kapil dev is a better fast bowler than Bumrah. He surpassed Kapil dev long back.

 

[Amjid Javed]

IN every era you have good bowlers, bad bowlers, good batsmen, bad batsmen. Each era has its own unique challenges. Saying this era has bad batsmen and 90s had some ATG batsmen is dishonest opinion. I have seen 90s era i know how the batsmen in the 90s. There were so many substandard batsmen in that era.

Yeah there were substandard batsmen in every era.

So what don't you name all the world class ATG batsmen in Pakistan, west indies, Sri Lanka, Bangladesh and South African team currently?

Actually other then kohli, root (elite), Smith and KW (good), the remaining standard of test batsmen is nowhere near a elite level. Harry Brook may become world class. But that's about it

 

[Amjid Javed]

It's wrong to downplay any bowler just because they did not win against Aus as long as they did step up against other good teams. In fact, not able to win is not that huge factor if they are playing with poor team. But not able to perform should be considered for everyone.

Feel free to tell you fellow Indians that, as they think performing in Australia and winning tests is only yardstick of performance

 

[jnaveen1980]

Yeah there were substandard batsmen in every era.

So what don't you name all the world class ATG batsmen in Pakistan, west indies, Sri Lanka, Bangladesh and South African team currently?

Actually other then kohli, root (elite), Smith and KW (good), the remaining standard of test batsmen is nowhere near a elite level. Harry Brook may become world class. But that's about it

May be the bowlers were not good enough to get them out? lol WHy don't you think that way. Sreesanth i know for a fact twice bowled out South africa under 100 runs twice in SA which India won both times. THat was ATG SA side. And sreesanth is nowhere close to be rated as an Indian great. Balaji and IRfan pathan as a rookie bowler helped INdia win in Pakistan for the first time. INspite of so many dropped catches India won with them. Both of them are not exactly Indian greats. Agarkar took 6 wicket haul and helped India level the series against Australia ATG batting side.

 

[aboveandbeyond]

In General. No doubt in my mind. The current era of Test Batsmanship is the worst I've ever seen.

Amjid Bro, whose valuable constructed input, has explained everything to a plumb

 

[Buffet]

Feel free to tell you fellow Indians that, as they think performing in Australia and winning tests is only yardstick of performance

They are not my fellow indians, just fellow posters.

Many downplay specific bowlers for not winning a test in Aus and many downplay Bumrah despite doing better than pretty much handful of bowlers in entire histry when it comes to impact, avg, SR agasint good teams in their den. It's two sides of the same coin.

 

[jnaveen1980]

There was this guy Graeme Hick who was hyped to the moon in the 90s like he is the next Bradman. We all know how his career went. Same with Mark Ramprakash. Another over hyped player who were treated like Next big thing.

 

[Amjid Javed]

There was a study about DRS. THat found out DRS benefitted finger spinners. Not so much leg spinners and fast bowlers. If anything fast bowlers got away with some incorrect leg before in the years gone by. It goes both ways. Tendulkar had several terrible decisions in that era.

Second of all there were noballs that were not monitored. India lost a test in Windies precisely due to that. 5 Indian dismissals were that of giant no balls. Tendulkar once. Sidhu twice. And two other top order dismissals. Bowlers had enough rest back in those days. They had rest day up to mid 90s. They had no leagues to participate. They had no T20 tournaments which once every two years.Apart from fixed tournament in Sharjah there was hardly any workload. There are more tests nowadays. Tendulkar played a mere 70 tests in first 10 years. Root has played 140 tests in 10 years. It is insanely difficult to maintain fitness and do well across the formats. On flat pitches they were no different. Basit Ali tharshing Ambrose and co at Sharjah is an example. If anything current bowlers are more equipped to bowl well on flat pitch as they hone their skills for 3 formats.

Watch how Basit ALi corss batting Ambrose for six lol I know Kaluwitharan doing the same to Ambrose. If the same bowlers bowl in this era against ultra aggressive batsmen they will not find it easy. They have to come up with different skill.

Second thing back then every team had one or two bowler who would bowl at 125k or something. The support bowlers would be absolutely crap. You have Mcgrath. Take him out. Their bowling was failing. 2005 series was an example. 2004 India absolutely dominated Australia apart from one innings. This was when Australia was in the middle of an ATG side. Nowadays support bowlers come up with better plans.

Just remember whilst some teams like England, Australia, India play more tests, some play less test. Also teams use to go on longer tours, play tour games and warm up matches. So things in that context even things out. Yeah back in day everyone had to play against home umpires, at same way teams can use DRS as an advantage.

Look back at 80s and 90s most teams had a good selection of quick bowlers, good spin options as well.

The most standout thing was pretty much every test side had world class batsmen. I look at cricket now and half of test teams the batting Is club level standard batting.

Does south africa have any as good as AB, kallis, Smith
Does WI have a lara / chanderpaul level player?
Pakistans test batting is pathetic?
SL do they have a sangakarra, aravinda, jayawardena level player?

Yet Indian fans get offended when I say quality of batting is trash

 

[jnaveen1980]

There is an article about England in the 1990s

England In The 90s: Four of the finest and four you may have forgotten

Often horrendous, occasionally hopeful... overall, Englands performance in the 90s was haphazard, as a record of 43 defeats, 38 draws and only 26 wins over the decade will testify.

www.skysports.com

Often horrendous, occasionally hopeful... overall, England's performance in the 90s was haphazard, as a record of 43 defeats, 38 draws and only 26 wins over the decade will testify.

 

[Amjid Javed]

There was this guy Graeme Hick who was hyped to the moon in the 90s like he is the next Bradman. We all know how his career went. Same with Mark Ramprakash. Another over hyped player who were treated like Next big thing.

To county bullies, hick was waqars bunny.

Rampakash vastly overated.

Gooch, Stewart, Smith, thorpe were England's best batters late 80s and in 90s

 

[jnaveen1980]

I love a good nostalgia story. Only the right story. 90s batsmen somehow superior being is definitely not one of them. They probably had "better" defensive mindset. That's as far as you can push that narrative. In terms of ability, skill set modern batsmen are vastly superior. Heck even tailenders.

 

[jnaveen1980]

My favorite batsman from the 90s besides Tendulkar, Lara was Carl Hooper most definitely. Severe under achiever. Amazing talent. But never justified his true potential.

 

[Amjid Javed]

I love a good nostalgia story. Only the right story. 90s batsmen somehow superior being is definitely not one of them. They probably had "better" defensive mindset. That's as far as you can push that narrative. In terms of ability, skill set modern batsmen are vastly superior. Heck even tailenders.

How is the skill set better? Batting averages are worse, players can't play swing, seam or spin that well.

Players may have a better array of so called strokes, but application and playing proper test inns has gone out of the window

 

[Amjid Javed]

May be the bowlers were not good enough to get them out? lol WHy don't you think that way. Sreesanth i know for a fact twice bowled out South africa under 100 runs twice in SA which India won both times. THat was ATG SA side. And sreesanth is nowhere close to be rated as an Indian great. Balaji and IRfan pathan as a rookie bowler helped INdia win in Pakistan for the first time. INspite of so many dropped catches India won with them. Both of them are not exactly Indian greats. Agarkar took 6 wicket haul and helped India level the series against Australia ATG batting side.

So your saying wasim / waqar / saqlain / gough / caddick / mcgrath / Warne / vass / murali / Ambrose / Walsh / kumble / Bishop etc weren't good to get batsmen out?

India winning in Pakistan was in 2004 not in the 90s.

Have a look at quality of the 3 tests Pakistan and India played in 99. Both sides would good pacers, spinners and batsmen

 

[jnaveen1980]

How is the skill set better? Batting averages are worse, players can't play swing, seam or spin that well.

Players may have a better array of so called strokes, but application and playing proper test inns has gone out of the window

Just because grinding out a test innings becomes an old fashion doesn't mean bowlers get it easy. IN that case every bowler should be donig well. That is not the case. Compare Bumrah with other Indian bowlers. Australia so happen to have the ATG bowling line up. There are a few teams that go through transition. India is one of them. It was the case in the 90s as well. Many teams went through transition. Have ever seen Bangladesh bowlers bouncing out Pakistani batsmen in Pakistan? They did that recently. Even Bangladesh has improved their bowling quality. They have 3 good fast bowlers in their line up. One of them bowling at 147 kph. IN the entire 90s apart from Akhtar and Lee (late 90s) nobody could even touch that speed. Nowadays 135 k is considered trundling.

Also you have to see how many batsmen actually get out to Bumrah while playing shots as against Defending. Almost all the Aussies were caught in the slips or by keeper mostly while defending in this test. This was agianst West indies who had just beaten England in a Test series at home.

 

[jnaveen1980]

So your saying wasim / waqar / saqlain / gough / caddick / mcgrath / Warne / vass / murali / Ambrose / Walsh / kumble / Bishop etc weren't good to get batsmen out?

India winning in Pakistan was in 2004 not in the 90s.

Have a look at quality of the 3 tests Pakistan and India played in 99. Both sides would good pacers, spinners and batsmen

Bowlers win matches. How many tests were won by them? I know for a fact a Weak Indian side toured Pakistan in the 1989 tour and drew all 4 tests. Why couldn't you produce a single result unless you suggest Manjrekar is some next level ATG.

 

[jnaveen1980]

Then the zimbabwe a certified minnow toured Pakistan and beat them in their own backyard. So did SL (who were minnows at test leve then). Why couldn't the bowling greats produce their magic against a minnow side?

 

[Amjid Javed]

Bowlers win matches. How many tests were won by them? I know for a fact a Weak Indian side toured Pakistan in the 1989 tour and drew all 4 tests. Why couldn't you produce a single result unless you suggest Manjrekar is some next level ATG.

How many tests were won by who?

Mindset to win games in 80s and 90s, most teams would play for draws instead of wins, imparticular dead Asian wickets

 

[jnaveen1980]

In every era people have bad performances, good performances. This is why you leave these arguments to those who have already played at the highest level. I am not talking about an odd ball opinion from a random ex cricketer. I am talking about guys like Ian Bishop who know what the heck he is talking about

 

[jnaveen1980]

How many tests were won by who?

Mindset to win games in 80s and 90s, most teams would play for draws instead of wins, imparticular dead Asian wickets

Are you saying every team is throwing bat around these days? Have you not seen Labu's 2 runs in 52 balls?

 

[jnaveen1980]

IN this very test series between the two teams only team that played recklessly was India. It is not Australia. they played proper test cricket leaving the ball. Their score 100 in 40 overs. Around the world cricket only India and England play reckless cricket for different reasons.

 

[Amjid Javed]

Then the zimbabwe a certified minnow toured Pakistan and beat them in their own backyard. So did SL (who were minnows at test leve then) . Why couldn't the bowling greats produce their magic against a minnow side?

You mean same Zimbabwe that beat India in the 1990s in Zimbabwe.

Yeah SL minnows that's scored 952 vs might India

What point are you trying to make?

 

[Amjid Javed]

Then the zimbabwe a certified minnow toured Pakistan and beat them in their own backyard. So did SL (who were minnows at test leve then). Why couldn't the bowling greats produce their magic against a minnow side?

Highest score by minnows in a test match 952 vs india

SL vs IND Cricket Scorecard, 1st Test at Colombo, August 02 - 06, 1997

Get cricket scorecard of 1st Test, SL vs IND, India tour of Sri Lanka 1997 at R Premadasa Stadium, Colombo dated August 02 - 06, 1997.

www.espncricinfo.com

 

[jnaveen1980]

You mean same Zimbabwe that beat India in the 1990s in Zimbabwe.

Yeah SL minnows that's scored 952 vs might India

What point are you trying to make?

Yea.. India was a terrible team lol I dont' disagree. INdia had just one good batsman. That's it. You just contradicted yourself.

 

[jnaveen1980]

Highest score by minnows in a test match 952 vs india

SL vs IND Cricket Scorecard, 1st Test at Colombo, August 02 - 06, 1997

Get cricket scorecard of 1st Test, SL vs IND, India tour of Sri Lanka 1997 at R Premadasa Stadium, Colombo dated August 02 - 06, 1997.

www.espncricinfo.com

that match ended in a draw. Srilanka is yet to beat INdia in India in a single test. What is your point here. It only makes your argument falling flat.

 

[Amjid Javed]

Yea.. India was a terrible team lol I dont' disagree. INdia had just one good batsman. That's it. You just contradicted yourself.

Not at all.

India has Sachin, dravid, ganguly

Azharuddin was good quality as well

 

[Amjid Javed]

that match ended in a draw. Srilanka is yet to beat INdia in India in a single test. What is your point here. It only makes your argument falling flat.

My point is Sri Lanka weren't minnows in the mid 90s. You telling me the won world cup in 96 as minnows?

Also zimbabwe had their strongest ever side in 90s, so don't act as they like they were some club team.

 

[Buffet]

My point is Sri Lanka weren't minnows in the mid 90s.

4 test victories in entire history till the end of 94 for SL. Any team not having even 5 test win in entire history is certified minnows in test.

 

[Amjid Javed]

4 test victories in entire history till the end of 94 for SL. Any team not having even 5 test win in entire history is certified minnows in test.

View attachment 148662

Same minnows that won an ODI world cup in 1996, same minnows that humbled India in a world cup semi final.

Only game in world cup history to be abandoned due to stadium being burnt down

 

[Amjid Javed]

4 test victories in entire history till the end of 94 for SL. Any team not having even 5 test win in entire history is certified minnows in test.

View attachment 148662

It took SL less matches to win their 1st test, compared to the might India.

The irony of an Indian calling SL a minnow

 

[Buffet]

Same minnows that won an ODI world cup in 1996,

I don't see the point you are trying to make.

Yes, SL was minnow in test till end of 1994 , it's not an opinion but a fact because they had won just 4 tests in entire history till then.

SL was no longer a minnow in second half of 90s. They won 8 test just in second half of 90s and also won ODI WC in 96.

 

[Buffet]

It took SL less matches to win their 1st test, compared to the might India.

And that makes SL a non-minnows in early 90s?

Carry on.