How does the present-day Jasprit Bumrah compare with the likes of Wasim Akram and Waqar Younis?

[kron]

Wasim and Waqar are same case as Kane Williamson or KG Rabada or Shaun Pollock. Their stats look great but they are inflated due to minnow bashing of Zim and BD. In case of Wasim, Waqar, they also picked a load of wickets vs NZ, SL.

In case of Rabada and Pollock, they have picked loads of wickets vs Zim, BD and WI.

In contrast, Bumrah, Cummins, Ambrose, McGrath have played vs top teams a lot more. Hence, they are top tier bowlers while Wasim, Rabada, S Pollock and Waqar are lower tier test bowlers in my opinion.

Disagree with rabada but agree wirmth the rest.
I definitely feel he is up there amongst the best ever.

 

[Buffet]

With such a huge gap in average between Bumrah and Wasim and that too while taking Bumrah vs top teams and Wasim vs everyone including minnows, how is this even a comparison anymore?

It's not a comparison because two are in different tiers. I mean gap is massive despite taking top tier teams for Bumrah and including all minnows for Wasim. What else you need ? Talking about other points is valid if players are some what near each other in output.

I was mainly trying to point this out to you to counter that Bumrah needs to do this or that to get to Wasim level earlier. You were talking babout Wasim and not Marshall, that was my point. Yes, Bumrah needs to do more to reach at level of Marshall, McGrath, Hadlee etc.

I judge bowlers greatness based on what they do in tough tours, but since you had objection about not including home, so here you go, See

Avg and 5-fers for other legends who played at the same time in matches involving Aus, WI, SA, Ind, Eng, Pak - home and away combined.



Before some one brings up that Pakitani pitches were poor for pacers, Wasim avg drops to 27-28 range away in tests involving these 6 teams.


Others have avg of 21-22 with far more 5-fers who played in the same era. Many also played less with more 5-fers. No excuse for batsmen being so better 90s that you can't do well or nonsense like golden era.

Wasim stands out with avg of 26 with 12 5-fers. This is including home and away since you wanted to include home. I disagree for various reasons to put home and away at the same stature. True greatness is doing well on away tough tours. Wasim falls further behind those elite test bowlers if you start looking away tough tours, 5-fers in wins etc.

5-fers in win in Aus, Eng, WI, SA, Pak, Ind [ Wasim played with a strong test team and arguably the strongest in Pakistan's history ]



I cut it off at Hadlee because you have to literally list 2-3 pages to find Wasim.

In his entire career, Wasim has just 1 5-fers in win in these countries despite playing with a strong test team and having such a long career. McGrath, Ambrose etc played at the same time. Far better output and far better impact. Bolwers wins you test matches by taking 20 wickets. You win tests by outbowling opposition and you win ODIs by outbatting oppositions.


After looking this, it will be illogical to start looking at any break up to compare Wasim with Ambrose. But you can use break up to compare Ambrose and McGrath. When gap is narrow then you get into details to find out who is better. When gap is very wide, its silly to get into details. It will be silly to get into details for Wasim and Shami. Gap is visible without details.

Similarly, the gap between Bumrah and Wasim is a massive one. Now if Bumrah averages 35 against top 5 oppositions taken together for next the 100 wickets then his output becomes near Wasim career. At that point, you can look away performance, impact and Bumrah will still trump Wasim. He has made the gap that huge. Yes, even if he starts declining from tommorow, he has achieved far more than Wasim did in his entire test career. Bumrah is no way going to do the same what he did so far. No bowler does it, so decline is guarateed. I think against top teams, he will finish in range of 21-22 and that's a true elite level in test.

He literally has to average 40 against top 5 teams going forward to go below Wasim. You may think so, but I don't think he will average 40 against top 5 sides going forward. That's why after this series in Aus, I am confortable to say that Bumrah has pulled far above Wasim's level to be rated above him. If you think Bumrah will avg 40 against top 5 teams going forward then fair enough, you can wait.

 

[kron]

Bumrah will surpass everyone but the two only remaining will be Sydney Barnes and Lohman.

It will become like Sachin v Bradman.

Sydney Barnes happened in amateur era. Lohman goman roman no one cares. Weak era players.

Midget bradman would get destroyed in modern era. In modern era which midget batsman is truly elite? Smith root all taller
Kohli too although kohli is 3 tiers lower than the other 2.

And then you have other potentially great players of current era who are mostly taller and stronger. Around 5'8 plus.

Sacchu Bacchu happened prior to 2010.

Just talking about current era post 2010.

 

[Buffet]

I made a thread recently about Mushtaq. It didn't get much traction but his away from Asia record is up there with the GOATs of spin.

Yes, he played in 90s and had most of 5-fers in win in away tests against top teams in Pakistan's history.

Attention goes on 2 Ws in 90s so much that we miss huge impact of Mushatq in tough tours.

Contrast of Mushtaq with Wasim when it comes to taking 5-fers in win.

 

[Ab Fan]

Disagree with rabada but agree wirmth the rest.
I definitely feel he is up there amongst the best ever.

Why? Has he performed vs top teams away from home? He averages 29 away from home vs non minnows. I can’t rate him in top tier for this reason. Need to improve.

 

[Ab Fan]

It's not a comparison because two are in different tiers. I mean gap is massive despite taking top tier teams for Bumrah and including all minnows for Wasim. What else you need ? Talking about other points is valid if players are some what near each other in output.

I was mainly trying to point this out to you to counter that Bumrah needs to do this or that to get to Wasim level earlier. You were talking babout Wasim and not Marshall, that was my point. Yes, Bumrah needs to do more to reach at level of Marshall, McGrath, Hadlee etc.

I judge bowlers greatness based on what they do in tough tours, but since you had objection about not including home, so here you go, See

Avg and 5-fers for other legends who played at the same time in matches involving Aus, WI, SA, Ind, Eng, Pak - home and away combined.

View attachment 149212

Before some one brings up that Pakitani pitches were poor for pacers, Wasim avg drops to 27-28 range away in tests involving these 6 teams.


Others have avg of 21-22 with far more 5-fers who played in the same era. Many also played less with more 5-fers. No excuse for batsmen being so better 90s that you can't do well or nonsense like golden era.

Wasim stands out with avg of 26 with 12 5-fers. This is including home and away since you wanted to include home. I disagree for various reasons to put home and away at the same stature. True greatness is doing well on away tough tours. Wasim falls further behind those elite test bowlers if you start looking away tough tours, 5-fers in wins etc.

5-fers in win in Aus, Eng, WI, SA, Pak, Ind [ Wasim played with a strong test team and arguably the strongest in Pakistan's history ]

View attachment 149214

I cut it off at Hadlee because you have to literally list 2-3 pages to find Wasim.

In his entire career, Wasim has just 1 5-fers in win in these countries despite playing with a strong test team and having such a long career. McGrath, Ambrose etc played at the same time. Far better output and far better impact. Bolwers wins you test matches by taking 20 wickets. You win tests by outbowling opposition and you win ODIs by outbatting oppositions.


After looking this, it will be illogical to start looking at any break up to compare Wasim with Ambrose. But you can use break up to compare Ambrose and McGrath. When gap is narrow then you get into details to find out who is better. When gap is very wide, its silly to get into details. It will be silly to get into details for Wasim and Shami. Gap is visible without details.

Similarly, the gap between Bumrah and Wasim is a massive one. Now if Bumrah averages 35 against top 5 oppositions taken together for next the 100 wickets then his output becomes near Wasim career. At that point, you can look away performance, impact and Bumrah will still trump Wasim. He has made the gap that huge. Yes, even if he starts declining from tommorow, he has achieved far more than Wasim did in his entire test career. Bumrah is no way going to do the same what he did so far. No bowler does it, so decline is guarateed. I think against top teams, he will finish in range of 21-22 and that's a true elite level in test.

He literally has to average 40 against top 5 teams going forward to go below Wasim. You may think so, but I don't think he will average 40 against top 5 sides going forward. That's why after this series in Aus, I am confortable to say that Bumrah has pulled far above Wasim's level to be rated above him. If you think Bumrah will avg 40 against top 5 teams going forward then fair enough, you can wait.

So, are you saying that Bumrah is way ahead of Wasim Akram already in Test cricket? And he has to perform really poorly to be rated inferior to Wasim Akram?

Bumrah to average 40 vs top 5 teams going forward to be rated inferior to Wasim Akram??

Why are you making life so miserable for our @mominsaigol bhai? He is not able to respond to me and hiding behind.

 

[kron]

So, are you saying that Bumrah is way ahead of Wasim Akram already in Test cricket? And he has to perform really poorly to be rated inferior to Wasim Akram?

Bumrah to average 40 vs top 5 teams going forward to be rated inferior to Wasim Akram??

Why are you making life so miserable for our @mominsaigol bhai? He is not able to respond to me and hiding behind.

At worst booms will average maybe 28 in the next 20 25 tests that he will play. Still would average like 22 overall.

Even if his speed reduced he will be really dangerous. More skills will be added. He can also generate bounce at will as his release point is a lot closer to the batsman.

There is no where to hide for batsmen.

I spotted this in 2017 itself. I knew that bumrah will be special.

Next special bowler from India will have to wait. I have hopes for limbani.

 

[Ab Fan]

All time India Pakistan test XI :-

Gavaskar
Sehwag
Dravid
Tendulkar
Miandad
Pant(wkt)
Kapil
Imran
Ashwin
Wasim
Bumrah

 

[BCCI-Enforcer]

All time India Pakistan test XI :-

Gavaskar
Sehwag
Dravid
Tendulkar
Miandad
Pant(wkt)
Kapil
Imran
Ashwin
Wasim
Bumrah

No Pakistani should be in the side.

 

[BCCI-Enforcer]

Sydney Barnes happened in amateur era. Lohman goman roman no one cares. Weak era players.

Midget bradman would get destroyed in modern era. In modern era which midget batsman is truly elite? Smith root all taller
Kohli too although kohli is 3 tiers lower than the other 2.

And then you have other potentially great players of current era who are mostly taller and stronger. Around 5'8 plus.

Sacchu Bacchu happened prior to 2010.

Just talking about current era post 2010.

Then you are agreeing Bumrah is goat of modern era and left McGrath and marshall behind

 

[Mamoon]

Did you have any cricketing knowledge or just talking pure nonsence ?

Do you Even know how many overs nad spell bumrah had bowled IN The MCG test ?


LAMO

I know more about cricket than you’d in a million years, and the quality of your writing goes down the drain with each passing day.

Bumrah’s bowling to Lyon and Boland was shockingly poor and it doesn’t matter how many overs he bowled. That’s his job.

 

[mominsaigol]

So, are you saying that Bumrah is way ahead of Wasim Akram already in Test cricket? And he has to perform really poorly to be rated inferior to Wasim Akram?

Bumrah to average 40 vs top 5 teams going forward to be rated inferior to Wasim Akram??

Why are you making life so miserable for our @mominsaigol bhai? He is not able to respond to me and hiding behind.

Hiding behind who? I invited buffet to debate me and he hasnt responded? You're the one hiding cause I have a habit of smoking Indians left and right.

That's why Indians either block me or run away or don't come at me, it's cause I'm the Travis head of this forumn.

I bully both pakistani and Indian posters into submission with facts and logic and I'm unbeatable.

How about you stop hiding and face the music, come at me while I destroy you.

 

[Ab Fan]

No Pakistani should be in the side.

It is a combined side. Here, I have picked the best XI comprising best players from both teams. Unfortunately, there is lack of quality from Pakistan so you can see only 3 names in the best XI.

 

[BCCI-Enforcer]

It is a combined side. Here, I have picked the best XI comprising best players from both teams. Unfortunately, there is lack of quality from Pakistan so you can see only 3 names in the best XI.

Who ask you to make combine side and fill with Pakistani? There is no requirement to do this so need to make justifications.

 

[Rajdeep]

Hiding behind who? I invited buffet to debate me and he hasnt responded? You're the one hiding behind your abu cause I have a habit of smoking Indians left and right.

That's why Indians either block me or run away or don't come at me, it's cause I'm the Travis head of this forumn.

I bully both pakistani and Indian posters into submission with facts and logic and I'm unbeatable.

How about you stop hiding and face the music, come at me while I destroy you.

Do you like video game brother momin? If yes, I will get a super mario game for you when we meet in Dubai.

 

[mominsaigol]

Do you like video game brother momin? If yes, I will get a super mario game for you when we meet in Dubai.

I can design and build games as well. Ik unity and unreal lol, but I'm mostly a designer related to graphics × Websites.

Here's a fun fact about Me

A) I'm super duper rich.

B) I'm super duper multimedia oriented

C) I'm super duper Smart on all cricketing affairs.

D) I have traveled approximately 52 to 53% of the planet

E) And last but not least I eat and gobble Indians like you for breakfast when it comes to cricket talks.

^^ Now why have I given you this information? Simple.

I suggest you travel to Mars and stay their out of my reach. The last thing you want is for me to pour my monetary resources into creating a website + Video game titled The end of Rajdeep.

 

[Ab Fan]

Hiding behind who? I invited buffet to debate me and he hasnt responded? You're the one hiding cause I have a habit of smoking Indians left and right.

That's why Indians either block me or run away or don't come at me, it's cause I'm the Travis head of this forumn.

I bully both pakistani and Indian posters into submission with facts and logic and I'm unbeatable.

How about you stop hiding and face the music, come at me while I destroy you.

You are the Travis Head of this forum lol

Travis Head scores in last game, 0 & 1.

Yeah, you are as bad as Travis Head’s performance in last game.

 

[mominsaigol]

You are the Travis Head of this forum lol

Travis Head scores in last game, 0 & 1.

Yeah, you are as bad as Travis Head’s performance in last game.

I am the Travis head of this forumn. I deliver gut punches to you lot. Robbed you of a BGT win in the 2nd test. Destroyed you In the 3rd test so badly that you hooligans took your shirts off celebrating a draw.

I am also the Cody Rhodes of this forumn, just rename me to the Indian Nightmare

 

[mominsaigol]

I can design and build games as well. Ik unity and unreal lol, but I'm mostly a designer related to graphics × Websites.

Here's a fun fact about Me

A) I'm super duper rich.

B) I'm super duper multimedia oriented

C) I'm super duper Smart on all cricketing affairs.

D) I have traveled approximately 52 to 53% of the planet

E) And last but not least I eat and gobble Indians like you for breakfast when it comes to cricket talks.

^^ Now why have I given you this information? Simple.

I suggest you travel to Mars and stay their out of my reach. The last thing you want is for me to pour my monetary resources into creating a website + Video game titled The end of Rajdeep.

@Rajdeep Jokes aside I'm actually trying to move to Brisbane to apply to a gaming studio atm lol

 

[IMMY69]

Who ask you to make combine side and fill with Pakistani? There is no requirement to do this so need to make justifications.

I have to agree with you.
This combined 11 stuff is so silly especially in a team sport.

We should look at he head to head results where Pakistan wipes the floor with India in both tests and ODI's...

 

[jnaveen1980]

I can design and build games as well. Ik unity and unreal lol, but I'm mostly a designer related to graphics × Websites.

Here's a fun fact about Me

A) I'm super duper rich.

B) I'm super duper multimedia oriented

C) I'm super duper Smart on all cricketing affairs.

D) I have traveled approximately 52 to 53% of the planet

E) And last but not least I eat and gobble Indians like you for breakfast when it comes to cricket talks.

^^ Now why have I given you this information? Simple.

I suggest you travel to Mars and stay their out of my reach. The last thing you want is for me to pour my monetary resources into creating a website + Video game titled The end of Rajdeep.

Only thing that is missing here is

I am Donald Trump lol

 

[mominsaigol]

Only thing that is missing here is

I am Donald Trump lol

I am the Travis head of this forumn. The sooner you accept it, the better.

 

[BCCI-Enforcer]

I have to agree with you.
This combined 11 stuff is so silly especially in a team sport.

We should look at he head to head results where Pakistan wipes the floor with India in both tests and ODI's...

Actually you are not wrong. Pakistan was a superior side and has a good record. We respect the Pakistani players of old but they never gave us the respect back.

India had a poor team but we spent money and resources to grow the game in our country. We made sacrifices to put our cricket as number 1 and we succeeded. Pakistan didn't do this. They buried their own cricket.

Now the gap is so big between us you will never breach it. Head to head record in ODI will be changed. In test it will remain frozen because we see no need to play test with you.

 

[IMMY69]

Actually you are not wrong. Pakistan was a superior side and has a good record. We respect the Pakistani players of old but they never gave us the respect back.

India had a poor team but we spent money and resources to grow the game in our country. We made sacrifices to put our cricket as number 1 and we succeeded. Pakistan didn't do this. They buried their own cricket.

Now the gap is so big between us you will never breach it. Head to head record in ODI will be changed. In test it will remain frozen because we see no need to play test with you.

Actually you're arguing against yourself.
Truth is that the Pakistan cricket structure is pathetic, there is hardly any investment into grassroots cricket, the number of coaches and management teams that have come and gone in the last 12 months, let alone over the past decade or so, and yet Pakistan cricket remains competitive...

india on the other hand should be leading the rankings in every department with the billions invested into players, grounds etc....

Pitty..

 

[BCCI-Enforcer]

@BCCI-Enforcer
Are you running a counter argument through AI?

No. There is no point arguing if you think being competitive is losing home and away in tests and losing to USA in world cups.

You can enjoy being competitive while we break records, make money, and rise to the top.

 

[Ab Fan]

Top 10 fast bowlers of all time :-

Marshall
McGrath
Hadlee
Steyn
Ambrose
Bumrah
IK
Donald
Wasim
Lillee

I have put IK but we all know the reason behind his insane peak as a bowler. Wasim with career test rating of 830 would not be top 25 but due to balances home and away record vs good teams, I have him in top 10. Waqar averaged 25 with 293 wickets excluding BD and Zim. So, that’s hardly a top 10 level.

 

[Devadwal]

I know more about cricket than you’d in a million years, and the quality of your writing goes down the drain with each passing day.

Bumrah’s bowling to Lyon and Boland was shockingly poor and it doesn’t matter how many overs he bowled. That’s his job.

My quality of writing maybe not good and i know that but your cricketing knowledge is Zero( Like your idol Babar Azam english speaking skill) . Unlike you I'm not a delusion person

Stick to babar Azam PR and gloat about his one -two fluke perfomance only.

 

[mominsaigol]

Top 10 fast bowlers of all time :-

Marshall
McGrath
Hadlee
Steyn
Ambrose
Bumrah
IK
Donald
Wasim
Lillee

I have put IK but we all know the reason behind his insane peak as a bowler. Wasim with career test rating of 830 would not be top 25 but due to balances home and away record vs good teams, I have him in top 10. Waqar averaged 25 with 293 wickets excluding BD and Zim. So, that’s hardly a top 10 level.

What a joke ranking . Dil khush rakhnei kei lyei, put ashwin at no 1. Infact your top 10 should be

1) Ashwin
2) Jadeja
3) Bumrah
4) Zaheer Khan
5) Harbajan
6) Kumble
7) Irfan Pathan
8) Ishant Sharma
9) Shami
10) Siraj

 

[Ab Fan]

What a joke ranking . Dil khush rakhnei kei lyei, put ashwin at no 1. Infact your top 10 should be

1) Ashwin
2) Jadeja
3) Bumrah
4) Zaheer Khan
5) Harbajan
6) Kumble
7) Irfan Pathan
8) Ishant Sharma
9) Shami
10) Siraj

You just proved that you are wannabe Australian with this post. But in reality, you are nothing but just a Pakistani who is bitter with the fact that your team no longer is capable of producing a half decent player. One thing is for sure that the amount of times you keep getting owned by me is so much so that you will be remembered in this forum as someone who got owned by me day in and day out.

 

[mominsaigol]

You just proved that you are wannabe Australian with this post. But in reality, you are nothing but just a Pakistani who is bitter with the fact that your team no longer is capable of producing a half decent player. One thing is for sure that the amount of times you keep getting owned by me is so much so that you will be remembered in this forum as someone who got owned by me day in and day out.

Owned? You have to literally tag Buffet to argue for you? And even he hasn't accepted my invitation .

You literally cried so hard that you put me on your ignore list for a while cause I kept bodying you left and right lol.

As for wannabee aussie. All I said was that I support the Australian team and that I live in Australia. I never claimed that I'm 100% of Australian origin. That's rubbish concocted by your Indian kind lol.

But again it's nothing new. Making false narratives about your own players, your own self and others is rooted in Indian culture. Always seeking validation from others.

 

[mominsaigol]

I have said this before and I will say it again. I am the Travis Head/ Mcgrath/ Ricky Pointing of this forumn.

Have robbed Indians of home den icc victories

 

[Buffet]

So, are you saying that Bumrah is way ahead of Wasim Akram already in Test cricket? And he has to perform really poorly to be rated inferior to Wasim Akram?

Bumrah to average 40 vs top 5 teams going forward to be rated inferior to Wasim Akram??

Why are you making life so miserable for our @mominsaigol bhai? He is not able to respond to me and hiding behind.

I am not saying that randomly. Performance against top sides by both bowlers have such a massive gap right now that averaging 40 for next 100 test wickets against top sides will bring Bumrah to Wasim's level. It's possible, he may average higher than 40, but I think probability is low. Even then he will be among top 5 bowlers in history for 5-fers in wins in tough tours. Taking account of impact, to be rated lower than Wasim, Bumrah has to average much higher than Wasim agaisnt top sides. Not impossible, but unlikely in my opinion.

i woudn't put way ahead right now. Bumrah is in differnt tier but less wickets against non-minnows. He will be way ahead when he gets to 250-275 high quality wickets, not now. Before Aus series, I had him slightly behind Wasim, but after this series he has cemented his place as elite test bowler. Elite performance with 200 plus wickets puts you above very good bowlers with 400 wickets. Another 50-75 high quality wickets ( not minnows to bottom tier teams) puts you way ahead.

Elite bowlers should be compared to other elite bowlers.

Very good bowlers should be compared to very good bowlers.

I had the same issue with many posters here comparing Anderson with Steyn. They were simply in diferent tiers and no amount of Anderson longevity was going to help Anderson against Steyn. Wasim is tier above Anderson, but falls short of elite test bowler where Bumrah belongs.

If you start comparing elite test bowlers to very good bowlers, comparison becomes lop sided like Bumrah vs Wasim. With 150-160 high quality wickets, longevity still wins despite being lower in quality. But after a certain point you got to have quality to go head to head against elite performers.

------------


One extreme of posters have Bumrah as the top 3 pacers in history and another extreme is still talkign about Bumrah needs to do XYZ to be be rated above Wasim. Both extremes are wrong in my opnion. Bumrah needs to do a lot more get to top 3 test pacers, but he has done enough to cement his place as an elite test bowler which puts him ahead of Wasim.

 

[Buffet]

Owned? You have to literally tag Buffet to argue for you? And even he hasn't accepted my invitation .

Sorry, I don't check notifications. Apologies for that.

I see you wanted to say something, please go ahead. Make your point. I may learn something new and it will be fantastic to change my mind. There is nothing better than to hear great counter arguments and then change opinions.

 

[Major]

Buffet:

Bumrah needs to do a lot more get to top 3 test pacers, but he has done enough to cement his place as an elite test bowler which puts him ahead of Wasim

@DeadlyVenom @Amjid Javed

 

[Buffet]

View attachment 149224

@DeadlyVenom @Amjid Javed

Why don't you make points instead of reacting shocked?

 

[Ab Fan]

I am not saying that randomly. Performance against top sides by both bowlers have such a massive gap right now that averaging 40 for next 100 test wickets against top sides will bring Bumrah to Wasim's level. It's possible, he may average higher than 40, but I think probability is low. Even then he will be among top 5 bowlers in history for 5-fers in wins in tough tours. Taking account of impact, to be rated lower than Wasim, Bumrah has to average much higher than Wasim agaisnt top sides. Not impossible, but unlikely in my opinion.

i woudn't put way ahead right now. Bumrah is in differnt tier but less wickets against non-minnows. He will be way ahead when he gets to 250-275 high quality wickets, not now. Before Aus series, I had him slightly behind Wasim, but after this series he has cemented his place as elite test bowler. Elite performance with 200 plus wickets puts you above very good bowlers with 400 wickets. Another 50-75 high quality wickets ( not minnows to bottom tier teams) puts you way ahead.

Elite bowlers should be compared to other elite bowlers.

Very good bowlers should be compared to very good bowlers.

I had the same issue with many posters here comparing Anderson with Steyn. They were simply in diferent tiers and no amount of Anderson longevity was going to help Anderson against Steyn. Wasim is tier above Anderson, but falls short of elite test bowler where Bumrah belongs.

If you start comparing elite test bowlers to very good bowlers, comparison becomes lop sided like Bumrah vs Wasim. With 150-160 high quality wickets, longevity still wins despite being lower in quality. But after a certain point you got to have quality to go head to head against elite performers.

------------


One extreme of posters have Bumrah as the top 3 pacers in history and another extreme is still talkign about Bumrah needs to do XYZ to be be rated above Wasim. Both extremes are wrong in my opnion. Bumrah needs to do a lot more get to top 3 test pacers, but he has done enough to cement his place as an elite test bowler which puts him ahead of Wasim.

I get your point of view but you are in a Pakistani forum and over here, you have to hail a 830 peak rating fast bowler as the greatest to have graced the game then only your opinions or points will be respected otherwise you can expect such reactions on regular basis.

Wasim and Waqar’s wicket tally is mostly inflated by bashing weak SL,Zim and NZ of 90s and this has not been the case with Bumrah who has picked a lot of his wickets vs Aus, SA and Eng.

Hence, this higher sample nonsense don’t really make sense. The gulf in away average is big enough to reach to a conclusion that Bumrah is well on its way to go past him if not already above both Wasim and Waqar in Test cricket.

 

[DeadlyVenom]

View attachment 149224

@DeadlyVenom @Amjid Javed

Actually I don't disagree with him much. Bumrah is on his way to surpass Wasim.

I disagree with Buffet over emphasis on away cricket and his changing of criteria for batsman to bowlers ( for batsman wins not important when looking at stats for bowlers win are important) but overall it's hard to disagree with Bumrah being up there with the best.

I do believe we cannot compare cricket across eras. Eras all these players played in the game was completely different. I have started to watch football again in a long time and the game is different to when I used to watch religiously when younger. So much so that there are new styles of play and new positions that did not exist previously.

After watching and analyzing football this way I think cricket is the same so it is futile to compare across eras.

Once you enter the pot of greatness you are splitting hairs and over analyzing between players to make points that are difficult to prove. There is nothing to gain by saying player X is better than player Y who retired 20 years ago. The game is different.

Only exception is to analyse Tendulkar this was because Indians have elevated him to God and don't take any criticism.

This myth must be shattered.

Anyway in short - Bumrah is a great bowler and may well finish as an elite. Statistically he will likely surpass Wasim but there are too many intangibles across eras. I would advise Pakistanis who enjoyed Wasim to enjoy Bumrah artistry too.

 

[DeadlyVenom]

I get your point of view but you are in a Pakistani forum and over here, you have to hail a 830 peak rating fast bowler as the greatest to have graced the game then only your opinions or points will be respected otherwise you can expect such reactions on regular basis.

What is Tendulkar peak? @Buffet conveniently mentioned Tendulkar 890 peak is ok but Wasim 830 is not.

Are you content that god of cricket has 34 players with better peak rating than him?

Forget the digs at Pakistani forum etc etc let's see if your reaction to this please.

 

[Devadwal]

View attachment 149224

@DeadlyVenom @Amjid Javed

Maybe Major wating for Misbah view on Bumrah

If misbah say bumrah is better than any Pakistani bowlers than major reply - Misbah Ne bola hai to such hoga hi .

 

[Buffet]

I get your point of view but you are in a Pakistani forum and over here, you have to hail a 830 peak rating fast bowler as the greatest to have graced the game then only your opinions or points will be respected otherwise you can expect such reactions on regular basis.

830 peak is non-issue. It depends on sequence of tests where you do well. You can do well 20 tests in a stretch or you do well in 20 tests in 40 tests as a block, peak rating will come different with same output.

Many Non-Pakistani fans rate Wasim very high as well and many Pakistani fans know that Wasim under achieved in test by a big margin based on his skills. So I won't generalize it.

Also, posters change opinions as well. I had looked and shared Waqar's numbers way back here to make my point about why Waqar shouldn't be rated that high. I rated him much lower even when watching him live.

Only recently I looked at Wasim's numbers against good sides being much lower than likes of McGrath, Amborse, Donald etc. I have changed my opinion a bit on Wasim as well. My opinion was wrongly based on how often he troubled batsmen, but actual results matters a way more. In skill set, Wasim is way up there with best, but in results he falls short against good teams.

None of my argument means that Wasim is not one of the ATGs. When comparing bowlers all of us are going to present weak and strong points for all players. It's not meant to be putting down or hyping anyone. Some posters take it that way.All these names are one of the best in history.

 

[aboveandbeyond]

Actually I don't disagree with him much. Bumrah is on his way to surpass Wasim.

I disagree with Buffet over emphasis on away cricket and his changing of criteria for batsman to bowlers ( for batsman wins not important when looking at stats for bowlers win are important) but overall it's hard to disagree with Bumrah being up there with the best.

I do believe we cannot compare cricket across eras. Eras all these players played in the game was completely different. I have started to watch football again in a long time and the game is different to when I used to watch religiously when younger. So much so that there are new styles of play and new positions that did not exist previously.

After watching and analyzing football this way I think cricket is the same so it is futile to compare across eras.

Once you enter the pot of greatness you are splitting hairs and over analyzing between players to make points that are difficult to prove. There is nothing to gain by saying player X is better than player Y who retired 20 years ago. The game is different.

Only exception is to analyse Tendulkar this was because Indians have elevated him to God and don't take any criticism.

This myth must be shattered.

Anyway in short - Bumrah is a great bowler and may well finish as an elite. Statistically he will likely surpass Wasim but there are too many intangibles across eras. I would advise Pakistanis who enjoyed Wasim to enjoy Bumrah artistry too.

Well if we can't compare eras, then we certainly can't compare bowlers from different eras then, going off your logic.

 

[Ab Fan]

What is Tendulkar peak? @Buffet conveniently mentioned Tendulkar 890 peak is ok but Wasim 830 is not.

Are you content that god of cricket has 34 players with better peak rating than him?

Forget the digs at Pakistani forum etc etc let's see if your reaction to this please.

There are multiple factors that needs to be taken into consideration. I never rate players based on one or two factors.

ICC peak rating is just one of those many factors. If that would be my only factor then Wasim would be 80th best fast bowler of all time. But above, I already put him at no.8. Longevity, performance vs top teams, home and away performance vs top teams, ability to pick 5-fers they all matter.

You can have greater peak rating by playing on home pitches on regular basis like Sanga, Mahela, Anderson, Ashwin or Jadeja could do. Jadeja’s peak bowling rating is 899 but despite that you will never hear any Indian claiming he is a great bowler. Now, in case of Wasim, that peak rating suggest he never reached the top level or anywhere close to it at any part of his career which his other contemporaries did with utmost ease. 830 when compared with all other ATG bowlers range(890-930) is a major gulf of difference and the names you find sitting just above Wasim are the ones who are simply rated atleast 2 levels below true ATGs of all time.

Tendulkar’s 898 peak rating suggests that he was a top level ATG batsman at his peak but there were still quite a few who were having better peak than him and that could be due to being HTB or simply having insane peak without consistency or longevity.

 

[Buffet]

What is Tendulkar peak? @Buffet conveniently mentioned Tendulkar 890 peak is ok but Wasim 830 is not.

.

I think 830 peak rating is an outlier for any greats of the game, SRT's peak rating is 898. That's way way higher and not an outlier. That's the only point I was making.

Also, you can have exact same output as a player but much different peak rating based on stretch of performance. Wasim was constantly good, but not elite levet in test that's why he averages 26-28 in matches invoving 6 test teams home and away both. Other legends averaged 20-24 in same era home and away.

I think Wasim's peak rating would have been higher if he had the exact same output but in different sequence. That's why 830 peak rating does not do justice to Wasim because his output was way higher than many others having 40 points higher rating. It does stand out as an outlier though because we will be hard pressed to find any great of game having 830 peak rating.

 

[DeadlyVenom]

Well if we can't compare eras, then we certainly can't compare bowlers from different eras then, going off your logic.

Yes I don't think you can make a straight comparison.

What you can say is that Bumrah is on track to achieve more in his era than what Wasim did in his era.

I didn't word my first line in my post correctly.

Direct comparison is very difficult and takes in too many different factors that just make it impossible...BUT if you want to go down that route Bumrah v Wasim isn't as ridiculous as many Pakistanis make it out to be.

 

[IMMY69]

Well if we can't compare eras, then we certainly can't compare bowlers from different eras then, going off your logic.

Well like a said earlier, if Bumrah was around in the 80's he wouldn't have even made it first class cricket...

I will entertain a debate as to how good he is if and when his bowling is properly tested...

 

[aboveandbeyond]

Well like a said earlier, if Bumrah was around in the 80's he wouldn't have even made it first class cricket...

I will entertain a debate as to how good he is if and when his bowling is properly tested...

I agree completely.

 

[DeadlyVenom]

Well like a said earlier, if Bumrah was around in the 80's he wouldn't have even made it first class cricket...

I will entertain a debate as to how good he is if and when his bowling is properly tested...

You may be right. Without proper understanding of biomechanics and hyperextension he wouldn't be able to progress through the ranks in 80s.

Also, If you take Malcolm Marshall and put him in modern era would be as effective? Batters now have padding all around them.

Imagine you take Shoaib Akhtar and put him in era without thigh pad and helmets against old Englishman like Brian Close.

There are too many permutations for accurate comparisons across eras and ultimately bias will come in. As we can see with many Indians keep accusing all successful Pakistanis of ball tampering and you guys keep accusing Bumrah of chucking!

 

[aboveandbeyond]

You may be right. Without proper understanding of biomechanics and hyperextension he wouldn't be able to progress through the ranks in 80s.

Also, If you take Malcolm Marshall and put him in modern era would be as effective? Batters now have padding all around them.

Imagine you take Shoaib Akhtar and put him in era without thigh pad and helmets against old Englishman like Brian Close.

There are too many permutations for accurate comparisons across eras and ultimately bias will come in. As we can see with many Indians keep accusing all successful Pakistanis of ball tampering and you guys keep accusing Bumrah of chucking!

Marshall had exceptional skill set. Majority of these t20 hacks ain't lasting long against him.

 

[Buffet]

I disagree with Buffet over emphasis on away cricket and his changing of criteria for batsman to bowlers ( for batsman wins not important when looking at stats for bowlers win are important) but overall it's hard to disagree with Bumrah being up there with the best.

I think I did answer that earlier somewhere.

In test, you rarely win without taking 20 wickets. You have to outbowl opposition to win test. Tests are won by bowlers. Batsman can at most draw a test.

In ODI, its flipped. You simply have to outbat opposition to win ODI. You can win without taking a single wicket. ODi are won by batsmen.

Above is generalization and it does not mean batsmen are useless in test and bowlers are useless in ODI. Also, one player won't be able to do well if they are playing for lets say minnows despite being an ATG. But Wasim did play for arguably the best Pakisgani test side.

You help your team by picking 5-fers and doing it in den of opposition is hardest part. History is witness to that. Dime and dozen HTBs but very very few have done it on tough tours. That separates elite to very good.

Flip side will be batsmen scoring tons in win against good sides in ODI. Again batsmen can't win it alone if he is playing for very weak side, but if playing for top 3 sides batsmen should have tons in win in ODi and bowlers should have 5-fers in wins against good sides. If you can do it in home ground of opposition in test or in tournaments/away venues in ODi then you are golden.


---------------------

I agree that we should just enjoy top level players or even below that level. I love wat hing good performances from some not so great players as well. Sports is about enjoying perfomances.

Fans will still compare players but it's not necessary.

 

[kron]

Top 10 fast bowlers of all time :-

Marshall
McGrath
Hadlee
Steyn
Ambrose
Bumrah
IK
Donald
Wasim
Lillee

I have put IK but we all know the reason behind his insane peak as a bowler. Wasim with career test rating of 830 would not be top 25 but due to balances home and away record vs good teams, I have him in top 10. Waqar averaged 25 with 293 wickets excluding BD and Zim. So, that’s hardly a top 10 level.

bumrah is better than badlee and probably even ambrose who would have had issues in india. he averaged 36 vs india in west indies itself.

 

[kron]

I am not saying that randomly. Performance against top sides by both bowlers have such a massive gap right now that averaging 40 for next 100 test wickets against top sides will bring Bumrah to Wasim's level. It's possible, he may average higher than 40, but I think probability is low. Even then he will be among top 5 bowlers in history for 5-fers in wins in tough tours. Taking account of impact, to be rated lower than Wasim, Bumrah has to average much higher than Wasim agaisnt top sides. Not impossible, but unlikely in my opinion.

i woudn't put way ahead right now. Bumrah is in differnt tier but less wickets against non-minnows. He will be way ahead when he gets to 250-275 high quality wickets, not now. Before Aus series, I had him slightly behind Wasim, but after this series he has cemented his place as elite test bowler. Elite performance with 200 plus wickets puts you above very good bowlers with 400 wickets. Another 50-75 high quality wickets ( not minnows to bottom tier teams) puts you way ahead.

Elite bowlers should be compared to other elite bowlers.

Very good bowlers should be compared to very good bowlers.

I had the same issue with many posters here comparing Anderson with Steyn. They were simply in diferent tiers and no amount of Anderson longevity was going to help Anderson against Steyn. Wasim is tier above Anderson, but falls short of elite test bowler where Bumrah belongs.

If you start comparing elite test bowlers to very good bowlers, comparison becomes lop sided like Bumrah vs Wasim. With 150-160 high quality wickets, longevity still wins despite being lower in quality. But after a certain point you got to have quality to go head to head against elite performers.

------------


One extreme of posters have Bumrah as the top 3 pacers in history and another extreme is still talkign about Bumrah needs to do XYZ to be be rated above Wasim. Both extremes are wrong in my opnion. Bumrah needs to do a lot more get to top 3 test pacers, but he has done enough to cement his place as an elite test bowler which puts him ahead of Wasim.

what minnows here are forgetting is that he has already played 30 plus away tests. not far from wasim really.

 

[Ab Fan]

bumrah is better than badlee and probably even ambrose who would have had issues in india. he averaged 36 vs india in west indies itself.

Ambu bowled to GOAT Tendulkar hence poor record.

 

[kron]

Well like a said earlier, if Bumrah was around in the 80's he wouldn't have even made it first class cricket...

I will entertain a debate as to how good he is if and when his bowling is properly tested...

yea he would average just 14 in that era

 

[mominsaigol]

Sorry, I don't check notifications. Apologies for that.

I see you wanted to say something, please go ahead. Make your point. I may learn something new and it will be fantastic to change my mind. There is nothing better than to hear great counter arguments and then change opinions.

Wanted to debate you on why Bumrah's 45 avg matters/ is a red flag that can't be ignored when comparing him with wasim.

 

[IMMY69]

You may be right. Without proper understanding of biomechanics and hyperextension he wouldn't be able to progress through the ranks in 80s.

Also, If you take Malcolm Marshall and put him in modern era would be as effective? Batters now have padding all around them.

Imagine you take Shoaib Akhtar and put him in era without thigh pad and helmets against old Englishman like Brian Close.

There are too many permutations for accurate comparisons across eras and ultimately bias will come in. As we can see with many Indians keep accusing all successful Pakistanis of ball tampering and you guys keep accusing Bumrah of chucking!

Indians make whatever accusations they want I have been consistent in views of Bumrah since 2016...

Funny how since his debut st least two or three international bowlers have been tested and yet Bumrah hasn't..
It's as the world has decided that hyperextension can be checked by just watching a few tv replays....

 

[cricketjoshila]

Indians make whatever accusations they want I have been consistent in views of Bumrah since 2016...

Funny how since his debut st least two or three international bowlers have been tested and yet Bumrah hasn't..
It's as the world has decided that hyperextension can be checked by just watching a few tv replays....

And you decided that experts cannot make out hyperextension from ultra slow down replays?

Here technology is able to pickup the speed of the arm and wrist and much more but experts cannot make out which way the elbow is bending.

Are you an expert in biomechanics or bowling?

 

[saimayubera]

Wanted to debate you on why Bumrah's 45 avg matters/ is a red flag that can't be ignored when comparing him with wasim.

because wasim himself is no hadlee or mcgrath with a perfect record.

Wasim averages 39 in bowler friendly SA himself. Bumrah’s worst is 31 in NZ.

Wasim is himself not a tier 1 test ATG with a perfect record that Bumrah’s few blemishes matter.

The gap between Bumrah and Wasim’s averages is the gap between Wasim and Anderson’s.

 

[saimayubera]

He will surpass Wasim in Tests easily. Wasim was a good bowler playing in great team but underachieved in Tests.
Bumrah is a great bowler playing in a mediocre team and seems way above everyone else.

All formats combined, Wasim is ahead in my opinion and Bumrah will have to win World Cup Final to go past him or McGrath.

McGrath > Wasim though. Not even on the same level.

McGarth won test series everywhere along with 3 WCs and 1 CT.

And Bumrah has won the world cup final in the format of his day just as Wasim did in his.

 

[Ab Fan]

Bumrah is simply phenomenal. About time we accept the reality.

As a matter of fact, I think he is the greatest Asian fast bowler of all time.

 

[IMMY69]

And you decided that experts cannot make out hyperextension from ultra slow down replays?

Here technology is able to pickup the speed of the arm and wrist and much more but experts cannot make out which way the elbow is bending.

Are you an expert in biomechanics or bowling?

Look I understand where you and your friends are coming from.
You have a bowler that is tearing it up, producing stats that have never been seen before from an Indian bowler.
You've put all your national pride in him and placed him on a high pedestal. I get all this.

However, and I know this to be true, if this bower was from any other country all of you would be applying common sense and asking for him to be checked in a laboratory.... Saying anything else is just lying to yourself.

 

[IMMY69]

Bumrah is simply phenomenal. About time we accept the reality.

As a matter of fact, I think he is the greatest Asian fast bowler of all time.

I will agree with you, if and when the tests are carried out.
But the fact that you're all here showing once again your insecurities tells me that everyone one of you has their own doubts about his action.

 

[Ab Fan]

I will agree with you, if and when the tests are carried out.
But the fact that you're all here showing once again your insecurities tells me that everyone one of you has their own doubts about his action.

Don’t agree. Simple.

 

[sweep_shot]

Unless Bumrah gets tested, his records should have an asterisk with the below message:

*It was not 100% clear whether he was chucking or not.

 

[Rajdeep]

Unless Bumrah gets tested, his records should have an asterisk with the below message:

*It was not 100% clear whether he was chucking or not.

You are yet to answer brother @Devadwal question. When is BCB and PCB forming alliance and creating new ICC?

 

[Ab Fan]

Given that Pakistan have failed to produce a pacer with 200+ wickets in professional era of international cricket with more cameras and social media presence , the records of Imran, Wasim and Waqar should have an asterisk with the below message:

*It was 100% clear that they used illegal tricks for tampering with the ball.

 

[Rajdeep]

Look I understand where you and your friends are coming from.
You have a bowler that is tearing it up, producing stats that have never been seen before from an Indian bowler.
You've put all your national pride in him and placed him on a high pedestal. I get all this.

However, and I know this to be true, if this bower was from any other country all of you would be applying common sense and asking for him to be checked in a laboratory.... Saying anything else is just lying to yourself.

Its not we have a bowler tearing up. It is the bowler better than any fast bowlet ever produced from sub continent. I know it is tough pill for you to swallow and hence all these chucking allegations but it is simply a fact. Bumrah is better statistically than Imran Khan, Wasim Akram, Waqar Younis, Shoaib Akhtar, Kapil Dev, Chaminda Vaas, Zaheer Khan etc. Your insecurity and jealousy is evident to all though.

 

[Bhaijaan]

Given that Pakistan have failed to produce a pacer with 200+ wickets in professional era of international cricket with more cameras and social media presence , the records of Imran, Wasim and Waqar should have an asterisk with the below message:

*It was 100% clear that they used illegal tricks for tampering with the ball.

Generally i add 2-5 runs to bowling average of Pakistani bowlers who played before 2000s for the reason that you mentioned. There was obviously a hell lot of tampering going on and you could tell by looking at the video clips of the dismissals. Too much movement.

 

[Devadwal]

You are yet to answer brother @Devadwal question. When is BCB and PCB forming alliance and creating new ICC?

He never answer any questions raised by himself .just faltu bate kara lo .

 

[mominsaigol]

Given that Pakistan have failed to produce a pacer with 200+ wickets in professional era of international cricket with more cameras and social media presence , the records of Imran, Wasim and Waqar should have an asterisk with the below message:

*It was 100% clear that they used illegal tricks for tampering with the ball.

And yet every Indian pacer gets bullied by Travis head

 

[BCCI-Enforcer]

Given that Pakistan have failed to produce a pacer with 200+ wickets in professional era of international cricket with more cameras and social media presence , the records of Imran, Wasim and Waqar should have an asterisk with the below message:

*It was 100% clear that they used illegal tricks for tampering with the ball.

Difference is boards not just tempering.

Pakistan has poor quality board, same as West Indies and Zimbabwe.

We have BCCI who investing in our cricket.

 

[cricketjoshila]

Look I understand where you and your friends are coming from.
You have a bowler that is tearing it up, producing stats that have never been seen before from an Indian bowler.
You've put all your national pride in him and placed him on a high pedestal. I get all this.

However, and I know this to be true, if this bower was from any other country all of you would be applying common sense and asking for him to be checked in a laboratory.... Saying anything else is just lying to yourself.

None of that has answered my question.

You are questioning the credibility of multiple experts. On what basis?

Is there evidence that ultra motion and other technologies cannot help an expert differentiate between Flexion and hyper extension?

I understand that Bumrah can potentially overtake every pakistani fast bowler and take away the only thing pakistanis have been chest thumping about and it hurts.

Doesn't mean Bumrah will be tested for that.

Tommorow if he is tested, next you will open a thread questioning the credibility of the test.

On this thread, you have already questioned the credibility of multiple experts.

One poster has said that media behemoths like NewsCorp Naspers Comcast are all scared of BCCI and censuring themselves over Bumrah.

What position will you guys give to some University lab?

Let's not try to fool anyone, if Bumrah wasn't Indian, you won't have issues with his action.

 

[saimayubera]

And yet every Indian pacer gets bullied by Travis head

Pakistani pacers got bullied by Ajay freaking Jadeja lol.

 

[kron]

Unless Bumrah gets tested, his records should have an asterisk with the below message:

*It was not 100% clear whether he was chucking or not.

Ok. We will try and get him tested. Just like shoaib was. If shoaib is legal then I would imagine bumrah who actually has a straight arm prior to release would be legal too.

But we will get him tested for you.

 

[just a fan]

Bowlers like Wasim, Waqar, Kapil & Srinath are good in their own way. But I don't get this fascination of comparing them to someone of Bumrah's calibre! Funny thread for real

 

[IMMY69]

The level of insecurity here is off the charts.
It's actually quiet amusing

 

[Buffet]

Wanted to debate you on why Bumrah's 45 avg matters/ is a red flag that can't be ignored when comparing him with wasim.

Because when over all gap becomes massive then going into details does not give us deciding factor. When output is in the same range then sure, details will work in one bowler favour vs others.

---------------------------

Put it this way, Bumrah in den of top tier teams in his era( Aus, Eng, SA, NZ, yes including NZ ) >> Wasim away everywhere including bottom tier + minnows.

Bumrah has Avg 20.3 and SR 44 ( only in top tier venues - Aus, Eng, SA, NZ)
Wasim has Avg 24.6 and SR 57 ( incuding all away venue - bottom teams + minnows )

If you are interested in seeing how Wasim did in 4 top venues of his era,

Wasim has avg of 26.9 and SR 61 ( only WI, SA, Aus, Ind )


----------------------------


Gap is that massive, that's why I think NZ is non-factor when comparing Bumrah and Wasim. I don't think era or quaity of circket is an issue because McGrath, Ambrose, Donald played at same time and against same teams and they have done well away agasint all teams and also against top tier teams of their era. Same way, No other bowler than Bumrah is doing even remotely close to him in his era and I do think that Cummins and Rabada are very good bowlers.

Clearly, even accounding for Bumrah poor show against NZ, he simply has done way more to have that kind of record. For many Bumrah's fan( I know you like him as well), it's perfectly fine to hope/expect that he does well against NZ as well, but that's a different issue.

Having said that, he is no where close to top 3 yet. Marshall, Hadlee and McGrath have outstanding record so no need to get into below top 3 bowlers. Sure, all of them can be compared but high quality 200 wickets can't be better than high quality 300 wickets even if marginally better in some aspects. Bumrah has strong case for top 10 test bowler right now and that's about it.

 

[mominsaigol]

Because when over all gap becomes massive then going into details does not give us deciding factor. When output is in the same range then sure, details will work in one bowler favour vs others.

---------------------------

Put it this way, Bumrah in den of top tier teams in his era( Aus, Eng, SA, NZ, yes including NZ ) >> Wasim away everywhere including bottom tier + minnows.

Bumrah has Avg 20.3 and SR 44 ( only in top tier venues - Aus, Eng, SA, NZ)
Wasim has Avg 24.6 and SR 57 ( incuding all away venue - bottom teams + minnows )

If you are interested in seeing how Wasim did in 4 top venues of his era,

Wasim has avg of 26.9 and SR 61 ( only WI, SA, Aus, Ind )


----------------------------


Gap is that massive, that's why I think NZ is non-factor when comparing Bumrah and Wasim. I don't think era or quaity of circket is an issue because McGrath, Ambrose, Donald played at same time and against same teams and they have done well away agasint all teams and also against top tier teams of their era. Same way, No other bowler than Bumrah is doing even remotely close to him in his era and I do think that Cummins and Rabada are very good bowlers.

Clearly, even accounding for Bumrah poor show against NZ, he simply has done way more to have that kind of record. For many Bumrah's fan( I know you like him as well), it's perfectly fine to hope/expect that he does well against NZ as well, but that's a different issue.

Having said that, he is no where close to top 3 yet. Marshall, Hadlee and McGrath have outstanding record so no need to get into below top 3 bowlers. Sure, all of them can be compared but high quality 200 wickets can't be better than high quality 300 wickets even if marginally better in some aspects. Bumrah has strong case for top 10 test bowler right now and that's about it.

Having said that, he is no where close to top 3 yet. Marshall, Hadlee and McGrath have outstanding record so no need to get into below top 3 bowlers.

Well that ends that ig lol.

 

[saimayubera]

Because when over all gap becomes massive then going into details does not give us deciding factor. When output is in the same range then sure, details will work in one bowler favour vs others.

---------------------------

Put it this way, Bumrah in den of top tier teams in his era( Aus, Eng, SA, NZ, yes including NZ ) >> Wasim away everywhere including bottom tier + minnows.

Bumrah has Avg 20.3 and SR 44 ( only in top tier venues - Aus, Eng, SA, NZ)
Wasim has Avg 24.6 and SR 57 ( incuding all away venue - bottom teams + minnows )

If you are interested in seeing how Wasim did in 4 top venues of his era,

Wasim has avg of 26.9 and SR 61 ( only WI, SA, Aus, Ind )


----------------------------


Gap is that massive, that's why I think NZ is non-factor when comparing Bumrah and Wasim. I don't think era or quaity of circket is an issue because McGrath, Ambrose, Donald played at same time and against same teams and they have done well away agasint all teams and also against top tier teams of their era. Same way, No other bowler than Bumrah is doing even remotely close to him in his era and I do think that Cummins and Rabada are very good bowlers.

Clearly, even accounding for Bumrah poor show against NZ, he simply has done way more to have that kind of record. For many Bumrah's fan( I know you like him as well), it's perfectly fine to hope/expect that he does well against NZ as well, but that's a different issue.

Having said that, he is no where close to top 3 yet. Marshall, Hadlee and McGrath have outstanding record so no need to get into below top 3 bowlers. Sure, all of them can be compared but high quality 200 wickets can't be better than high quality 300 wickets even if marginally better in some aspects. Bumrah has strong case for top 10 test bowler right now and that's about it.

Thing is the Pakistani trio are tier-2 red ball fast bowlers alongside the likes of Lillee, Pollock, Rabada, Walsh etc.

Their halo is mostly due to white ball exploits.

Bumrah will probably be Asia's first tier 1 red ball fast bowler.

 

[Buffet]

Generally i add 2-5 runs to bowling average of Pakistani bowlers who played before 2000s for the reason that you mentioned. There was obviously a hell lot of tampering going on and you could tell by looking at the video clips of the dismissals. Too much movement.

I don't think you should be doing that, because that's subjective.

Due to not having home umpires in away matches, it was hard to tamper for all bowlers. Not just any specific bowler. You can look into record of all bowlers in away matches to see how well they did in absolute terms and also relative to others top bowlers. I think that's pretty accurate picture of skill and output of all bowlers without getting into adjusting avg by so and so runs for biased home umpiring or tampering. That's too subjective.



Away avg of pacers: 1970-1990 [ Sub 27 avg with 100 plus wickets against non-minnows]





Away Avg of pacers 1991 - 2009 [ Yes SL was minnow till mid 90s, but breaking becomes harder ]





Away Avg of pacers after 2009 [ Avg sub 27 and 100 plus wickets ]



Due to break in periods, we may miss some pacers who happens to play in overlapping periods, so



Away Avg of pacers against non-minnows since 1970: { only 7 teams have been non-minnows in this enire period }




Looking at away performance takes care of biased home umpiring for all bowlers including ball tampering. Trying to adjust averages of bowlers are too subjective.

These lists does not mean that we start ranking bowlers based on direct order of avg, but it gives you a decent idea of how they performed without benefit of home umpires and everyone was bowling outside home in this list and had no benefit of home umpires.

 

[aboveandbeyond]

Bowlers like Wasim, Waqar, Kapil & Srinath are good in their own way. But I don't get this fascination of comparing them to someone of Bumrah's calibre! Funny thread for real

Finally some sense. Comparing him to Greats of the game, does no one any good. Plus he has question marks over his action.