How does the present-day Jasprit Bumrah compare with the likes of Wasim Akram and Waqar Younis?

[Buffet]

But he hasn’t performed in home conditions vs all teams or particularly top teams enough.

Need to deliver home performance vs Australia and South Africa to reach the level of Wasim.

You are making it sound like Wasim's level was some elite level if you include home test wickets.

Home and Away combined Wasim did not have that great record against 6 out of 8 test teams of his era. SL transitioned from minnow to proper team in mid 90s and NZ was poor team in 90s.

Here is Wasim's level , home and away combined in matches involving 6 teams.



Gap in output is massive. It does not make sense to say that Bumrah needs to do so and so to reach at Wasim's level. It would be fine to say something like that if you are talking about Marshall's level. But Wasim?

Marshall, Hadlee, McGrath, Steyn, Bumrah -- they are elite level test bowlers who have lots of match changing spells in den of top teams. They all have taken 5-fers in wins many times to help their team win in tough away tests.

Bumrah can average 35 for the next 70-80 wickets and still have a better record than Wasim. Gap is that massive. Are you seriosuly waiting for Bumrah to pick up cheap wickets against bottom teams like WI and Sl? Bumrah averages 9 against them and if he plays 25 tests against Sl/WI then his career average may end up in teens.

But picking cheap wickets to bring your average down hardly makes any bowler an elite bowler. It's useless volume and career avg. Quality is what you do against good teams and elite is what you do in their dens. Not 1-2 venues, but 6 teams out of 8 is a lot.

Now if you are in camp that volume matter way way more than quality then fair enough. I never rate any player that high based on volume.

For me,

Longevity with decent quality is good
Quality with decent longevity is better - Current Bumrah Level
Quality with longevity is best : Only 5-7 test bowlers falls in this category.

 

[Buffet]

@Ab Fan

Look at Elite level bowlers picking 5-fers in win in tough away tests who played with Wasim.

Hadlee, McGrath, Ambrose did it in Wasim's era. Steyn did it in his era. Bumrah is doing it in his era.

Wasim is missing and some one will say that you can do very well without picking 5-fers or team may be weak. Well, Wasim has average of 27-28 in tough away tests so he did not do well in general. Wasim also played with Waqar, Saqlain, Inzzy, Anwar, Akhtar etc. Pakistan was 3rd best test side in 90s. So Wasim had a very strong support but if your output is avg of 27-28, you are not going to pick many 5-fers in wins.

Taken together it's simply does not make any sense to say that Bumrah needs to do this or that to reach at Wasim's level unless focus is on volume and volume alone while ignoring quality.

If you fall short in every single metric,

• 5-fers in win in tough tours
• Over all away average in tough tours
• Over all average against better teams

You don't belong in elite level. Longevity etc is good point if you are comparing two elite level test bowlers. Wasim's skill level was elite level but his output is simply not elite level. I am myself guity of mixing two and rating Wasim higher in past. I am a huge Wasim's fan, but looking at his output, clearly Wasim falls short of Elite level.

 

[HARKS]

You are correct. Fan can go on and on about reverse and all other factors, but when all said and done, you got to pick wickets cheaply and quickly as bowler. During Waqar's peak, NZ was poor team and SL was certified minnow due to winning only 2-3 tests till early 90s in their entire history.

In matches involving Pak, Aus, Eng, WI, SA, Ind ( 6 out of 8 test teams )

View attachment 149162


I know some one will bring the excuse about how hard it was to do well due to Pakistani pitches,

Here are 2Ws away tests in matches involving the same 6 test teams.
View attachment 149163


Any elite test bowlers don't have average of 27-29 .

Anyone bringing up how great batsmen were in those days, look at Hadlee, Ambrose, McGrath, Donald, Walsh -- All had far better output. I mean you have literally 5-6 bowlers doing well so no excuse of era and since we are looking at away record, no excuse of Pakistani pitches.

Wasim and Waqar both were very good test bowler but not an elite level test bowler. Wasim massively underachieved in my opinion. I tuned up to watch Wasim bowl and he was that good when it came to skills and troubling batsmen, but you got to take wickets cheaply and quickly against good teams. That's what makes you a better bowler.

Run away , many super experts will come and claim that batsmen quality is inferior in this era compared to past but same super experts will also not accept that Sachin is superior batsmen to all current batsmen even though he played in that super tough era as claimed by so called authority of cricket, Actually no matter what facts or data u use ro argue with this so called experts they will never accept bcz both Sachin and bumrah are indian. So don't waste ur energy, they are rabid indian haters.they will always down play indian record even though they contradict their own arguments.

 

[mominsaigol]

He will get 300 wickets. Will play 70 games max. That's more than enough. I think he retires with an average of 21 22

Cause once you decline you average around 25 26 post 31 years of age. For most elite players.

Bumrah needs to do well in home conditions vs SA or nz. To check that off

One more good away series in England.

And finally improve a bit vs nz away.

Then yes he can go above wasim provided he lasts another 20 25 tests. But number 2 at the moment from Asia.

He isn't no 2. I've listed the metrics and this comes from someone who's completly unbiased towards bumrah since he's my 2nd favourite player atm after travis head.

I don't wish to listen to biased Indians especially when I've revisited some ancient PP posts where people were comparing zaheer Khan and ranking him > Akram.

The truth is india has produced like 3 to 5 quality test batters like sachin, dravid, Sunny and a few others.

In odi they have produced 3 to 5 quality batters as well.

And in t20 2 to 3.

When it comes to spin bowling they've produced quality but for pacers only bumrah, India is one of the least talented countries for producing pacers.

All these VVS Laxman's, Kohli (test) and rohit( test), dhoni( in test + t20) and many others of their so called greats are all PR marketing hype from unintelligent people who have no clue about cricket.

I don't get the fascination of objectively putting every Indian at no 1. It's a source pill to swallow that 2 aussies are ranked no 1

Mcgrath + Bradman. Spinning wise murli ranks supreme and its a damn shame India which loves the sport the most just can't rank no 1 in any metric.

Even their trophy cabinet is 2nd fiddle to aus

 

[kron]

He isn't no 2. I've listed the metrics and this comes from someone who's completly unbiased towards bumrah since he's my 2nd favourite player atm after travis head.

I don't wish to listen to biased Indians especially when I've revisited some ancient PP posts where people were comparing zaheer Khan and ranking him > Akram.

The truth is india has produced like 3 to 5 quality test batters like sachin, dravid, Sunny and a few others.

In odi they have produced 3 to 5 quality batters as well.

And in t20 2 to 3.

When it comes to spin bowling they've produced quality but for pacers only bumrah, India is one of the least talented countries for producing pacers.

All these VVS Laxman's, Kohli (test) and rohit( test), dhoni( in test + t20) and many others of their so called greats are all PR marketing hype from unintelligent people who have no clue about cricket.

I don't get the fascination of objectively putting every Indian at no 1. It's a source pill to swallow that 2 aussies are ranked no 1

Mcgrath + Bradman. Spinning wise murli ranks supreme and its a damn shame India which loves the sport the most just can't rank no 1 in any metric.

Even their trophy cabinet is 2nd fiddle to aus

By every statistical metric barring longevity he is number 1 actually from Asia.

I am willing to place him number 2. And believe me I despise stat padders. I am not biased one bit. I don't have kohli in my top 8 all time great batsmen list. Moment I wat he'd bumrah in 2017, I knew then itself he was going to be an ATG.

The way he destroyed peak abd. Who only averages 25 vs bumrah. In tests. Abd can only take him on in t20 which is a tulla useless format. Same with head. Only did better in easier flat crap pitches of odi.

I have never seen someone as good as bumrah from Asia and I have watched all the great bowlers from Asia.

Right now he is number 2 only due to longevity. A few more years at a similar level and then he displaces wasim


Besides right now bumrah doesn't have shami or ishant or umesh to support him. He is carrying it all alone like hadlee did.

Zaheer khan is a tulla bowler lmao. Why even bring him in the conversation and compare him to wasim.
That's why odi Is not taken seriously. No one cares for excelling in odi.

even zak khan has a world cup and he was nothing special. He averages and so does a few others average better than wasim. Doesnt make them greater bowlers. Tests is what matters. Only tests prdocues greats.

Waqar is not even in the conversation. I don't rate that guy.


If you are talking about world atg? Then mcg hands down. Bumrah needs to do more for another 3 years or so to reach that level.

Mcgrath Marshall are the kings. Steyn in top 5. Wasim then bumrah for now. He can move higher later on depending on whether he plays around 60 70 games.

Cummins and rabada are also in top 10.

 

[Ted123]

You are making it sound like Wasim's level was some elite level if you include home test wickets.

Home and Away combined Wasim did not have that great record against 6 out of 8 test teams of his era. SL transitioned from minnow to proper team in mid 90s and NZ was poor team in 90s.

Here is Wasim's level , home and away combined in matches involving 6 teams.

View attachment 149164

Gap in output is massive. It does not make sense to say that Bumrah needs to do so and so to reach at Wasim's level. It would be fine to say something like that if you are talking about Marshall's level. But Wasim?

Marshall, Hadlee, McGrath, Steyn, Bumrah -- they are elite level test bowlers who have lots of match changing spells in den of top teams. They all have taken 5-fers in wins many times to help their team win in tough away tests.

Bumrah can average 35 for the next 70-80 wickets and still have a better record than Wasim. Gap is that massive. Are you seriosuly waiting for Bumrah to pick up cheap wickets against bottom teams like WI and Sl? Bumrah averages 9 against them and if he plays 25 tests against Sl/WI then his career average may end up in teens.

But picking cheap wickets to bring your average down hardly makes any bowler an elite bowler. It's useless volume and career avg. Quality is what you do against good teams and elite is what you do in their dens. Not 1-2 venues, but 6 teams out of 8 is a lot.

Now if you are in camp that volume matter way way more than quality then fair enough. I never rate any player that high based on volume.

For me,

Longevity with decent quality is good
Quality with decent longevity is better - Current Bumrah Level
Quality with longevity is best : Only 5-7 test bowlers falls in this category.

Gap is bigger than what you are trying to show. Include NZ and the difference will be visible.

 

[BCCI-Enforcer]

Bumrah has surpassed all other bowlers in history of the game. Not just Wasim.

 

[Ab Fan]

Bumrah has left Waqar well behind as far as test greats are concerned.

Some posters may say that Waqar also averaged 20.5 when he had 200 test wickets but in reality, those 200 wickets he got were down to highly inflated stats via minnow bashing of Zim, SL and NZ. In contrast, Bumrah achieved it with performance vs top level teams like Australia and England.

 

[BCCI-Enforcer]

Bumrah has left Waqar well behind as far as test greats are concerned.

Some posters may say that Waqar also averaged 20.5 when he had 200 test wickets but in reality, those 200 wickets he got were down to highly inflated stats via minnow bashing of Zim, SL and NZ. In contrast, Bumrah achieved it with performance vs top level teams like Australia and England.

Pakistan was also trash team then so you can make excuses for Waqar that trash team performed against other trash team.

In comparison India is top level team similar to old Australia and West Indies. That's why only comparison with Marshall and McGrath may make sense.

 

[cricketjoshila]

100 test wickets with the same figures? That's Marshall's level.

I think Bumrah may do better.

 

[Ab Fan]

@Ab Fan

Look at Elite level bowlers picking 5-fers in win in tough away tests who played with Wasim.

Hadlee, McGrath, Ambrose did it in Wasim's era. Steyn did it in his era. Bumrah is doing it in his era.

Wasim is missing and some one will say that you can do very well without picking 5-fers or team may be weak. Well, Wasim has average of 27-28 in tough away tests so he did not do well in general. Wasim also played with Waqar, Saqlain, Inzzy, Anwar, Akhtar etc. Pakistan was 3rd best test side in 90s. So Wasim had a very strong support but if your output is avg of 27-28, you are not going to pick many 5-fers in wins.

Taken together it's simply does not make any sense to say that Bumrah needs to do this or that to reach at Wasim's level unless focus is on volume and volume alone while ignoring quality.

If you fall short in every single metric,

• 5-fers in win in tough tours
• Over all away average in tough tours
• Over all average against better teams

You don't belong in elite level. Longevity etc is good point if you are comparing two elite level test bowlers. Wasim's skill level was elite level but his output is simply not elite level. I am myself guity of mixing two and rating Wasim higher in past. I am a huge Wasim's fan, but looking at his output, clearly Wasim falls short of Elite level.


View attachment 149165

You shouldn’t be excluding New Zealand or Sri Lanka over their entire careers. NZ had Crowe/Hadlee in the 80s and SL pitches don’t favour pace bowling enough. Zimbabwe can be excluded as their peak came only for a small 1-2 year in late 90s. SL in first half were minnows but very good in second half.

If you only want to compare top teams then only Aus, SA, WI and Pak should be included between 1985-2000.

Comparison of Bumrah vs Wasim and Waqar:-

Wasim/ Waqar era non minnows - Aus, SA, WI, Pak, Ind, Eng, NZ, SL. Exclude Zim and BD.

Bumrah era non minnows - Aus, India, SA, Eng, NZ, SL, Pak. Exclude BD and WI.

Now do the comparison.

 

[Ab Fan]

Also important to note that outliers will be there in international cricket. Australia lost a home test vs Windies recently while over the last decade, SENA teams haven’t really dominated BD in BD. But despite that, BD and WI are considered as good as minnows.

In a same way, Pakistan lost by an innings defeat vs Zim in 1995 but that is again a case of outlier. A rare occasion where Grant Flower, Andy Flower and Heath Streak all performed in one game and Zimbabwe crushed Pakistan.

 

[kron]

Bumrah has left Waqar well behind as far as test greats are concerned.

Some posters may say that Waqar also averaged 20.5 when he had 200 test wickets but in reality, those 200 wickets he got were down to highly inflated stats via minnow bashing of Zim, SL and NZ. In contrast, Bumrah achieved it with performance vs top level teams like Australia and England.

Nz is one team he needs to do well against. I think he will figure it out. Some reason the fire is missing in nz games.

Intensity is lower.

Nz away average is actually 31. Not 45 as per these clowns.

It's bad only at home on crappy pitches vs nz. He will correct i am sure.

 

[Vikram1989]

Clowns and trolls can say whatever they can .as per them Bumrah doesn't have good avg against nz , so he is not goat.every aussie is great. Warne have avg of 43 in india and sr of 81 in test matches. So he is not an atg and good spinner. Lara have 33 avg and 0 centuries in India .so he is not a good batsmen as misbah have higher score.mcgrath was not able knock off dravid and laxman for entire one day but Andrew hall have dismissed dravid at the same venue.picking all kind of wrong stats due to their delusion and not able to answer honestly to @Buffet posts with stats is downright shameless

 

[kron]

Clowns and trolls can say whatever they can .as per them Bumrah doesn't have good avg against nz , so he is not goat.every aussie is great. Warne have avg of 43 in india and sr of 81 in test matches. So he is not an atg and good spinner. Lara have 33 avg and 0 centuries in India .so he is not a good batsmen as misbah have higher score.mcgrath was not able knock off dravid and laxman for entire one day but Andrew hall have dismissed dravid at the same venue.picking all kind of wrong stats due to their delusion and not able to answer honestly to @Buffet posts with stats is downright shameless

Agreed and btw bumrah averages 31 vs nz in nz. Not 45

45 included home performance on crappy pitches. He will fix that away 31 very soon.

If he plays with the same fire he does vs aus he will kill them

 

[Ab Fan]

Excluding Zim and BD, the averages of top bowlers of Wasim era reads as :-

Ambrose 21
McGrath 21
Donald 22
Wasim 23
Pollock 23
Waqar 25

In current era, excluding BD, WI and Zim, averages reads as :-

Bumrah 20
Cummins 22
Rabada 24

Basically, we can split them in three different tiers but not a whole lot seperating them because the current era players have not completed their careers and sample size maybe smaller.

Tier 1- McGrath, Ambrose, Bumrah
Tier 2- Wasim, Donald, Cummins
Tier 3- Pollock, Rabada, Waqar, Walsh

Among active players, we may see players dropping or moving up. Chances of someone getting dropped from Tier 1 to Tier 3 or moving up from Tier 3 to Tier 1 is less though.

 

[RexRex]

Waqar and Wasim had their peaks in a time when reverse swing was an unknown commodity but Bhumrah in the present era where reverse swing is a widely known art, where batsmen have big heavier bats, where bowlers have a much demanding workload across all formats has proven to be better than Wasim, Waqar.

^ I couldn't have said it better myself. Some pakistani fans have become woke.

 

[kron]

^ I couldn't have said it better myself. Some pakistani fans have become woke.

Bumrah would average 12 in 90s if he played on those treacherous pitches in west indies or in Pakistan where he could ball tamper at will. Zero chance of playing him well. Good luck.

 

[ikky47]

Also what people are not taking into account, this isn’t to downplay the quality of Bumrah but he is currently bowling in the most pace friendly era of test cricket. Essentially the conditions are now geared towards wins or losses no doubt he’s a sensational bowler, however the current era is even more bowler friendly than the 90s and cricket is a lot more advanced and professional than what it was back in the 80s and 90s

 

[kron]

Also what people are not taking into account, this isn’t to downplay the quality of Bumrah but he is currently bowling in the most pace friendly era of test cricket. Essentially the conditions are now geared towards wins or losses no doubt he’s a sensational bowler, however the current era is even more bowler friendly than the 90s and cricket is a lot more advanced and professional than what it was back in the 80s and 90s

It's negated by big bats. Drs.
no ball umpires
Bouncer rule limited to 2
Tapes/better analysts
Better protection overall for batsmen.

90s still far more bowling friendly.

2000 was initially. Then 2005 onwards it was too flat so all the useless batsmen. Could stat pad and score tons for fun.

Every era has its strengths and weaknesses.

Modern players are like machines. It's become professional. 90s and even 2000 weren't so. Unless aus was professional in 2000 era and SA. It showed in results too.

 

[ikky47]

It's negated by big bats. Drs.
no ball umpires
Bouncer rule limited to 2
Tapes/better analysts
Better protection overall for batsmen.

90s still far more bowling friendly.

2000 was initially. Then 2005 onwards it was too flat so all the useless batsmen. Could stat pad and score tons for fun.

Every era has its strengths and weaknesses.

Modern players are like machines. It's become professional. 90s and even 2000 weren't so. Unless aus was professional in 2000 era and SA. It showed in results too.

Yeh it’s swings and roundabouts, I’d say DRS also works both well for bowlers and batsmen, pitches are defo more results oriented now with less draws compared to previous eras!

Modern players much more professional it has changed a lot but then the workload for modern cricketers is also huge due to t20 leagues/IPL.

But the biggest thing is ball tampering was pretty common in 80s/90s now that’s been pretty much cut out the game!

I think we should enjoy the quality of today’s pacers and also appreciate the greatness of the previous generation's!

One thing is clear is that Bumrah will probably go down as this generations greatest bowler and Cummins as his number 2 but that can change once they both retired

 

[kron]

Yeh it’s swings and roundabouts, I’d say DRS also works both well for bowlers and batsmen, pitches are defo more results oriented now with less draws compared to previous eras!

Modern players much more professional it has changed a lot but then the workload for modern cricketers is also huge due to t20 leagues/IPL.

But the biggest thing is ball tampering was pretty common in 80s/90s now that’s been pretty much cut out the game!

I think we should enjoy the quality of today’s pacers and also appreciate the greatness of the previous generation's!

One thing is clear is that Bumrah will probably go down as this generations greatest bowler and Cummins as his number 2 but that can change once they both retired

And also rabada. Don't forget rabada.

His numbers are better than even steyn

Rabada is 3rd or even second I would say to bumrah.

I would say rabada is easily saffers second greatest bowler of all time. Only steyn is slightly ahead. He may even go past steyn once he retires from the sport.

But I am no convinced imran is Pakistan's greatest bowler. I will have to out him above wasim.

Bumrah vs wasim vs imran. When boom retires he may go past imran. He just needs to play 20 25 more tests.

 

[Ab Fan]

And also rabada. Don't forget rabada.

His numbers are better than even steyn

Rabada is 3rd or even second I would say to bumrah.

I would say rabada is easily saffers second greatest bowler of all time. Only steyn is slightly ahead. He may even go past steyn once he retires from the sport.

But I am no convinced imran is Pakistan's greatest bowler. I will have to out him above wasim.

Bumrah vs wasim vs imran. When boom retires he may go past imran. He just needs to play 20 25 more tests.

Rabada has better numbers than Steyn due to pitches they played on. SA pitches have been fast bowling paradise in last 6-7 years.

 

[ikky47]

And also rabada. Don't forget rabada.

His numbers are better than even steyn

Rabada is 3rd or even second I would say to bumrah.

I would say rabada is easily saffers second greatest bowler of all time. Only steyn is slightly ahead. He may even go past steyn once he retires from the sport.

But I am no convinced imran is Pakistan's greatest bowler. I will have to out him above wasim.

Bumrah vs wasim vs imran. When boom retires he may go past imran. He just needs to play 20 25 more tests.

Yes forgot about Rabada them 3 are the best of the bunch of this generation, it is great watching them all in full speed when they are firing in. In terms of Bumrah he has everything going for him to go down as the best Asian pacer of all time just the matter of longeveity, will be interesting to see how his career ends as most fast bowlers end up seeing a decline in their early/mid 30s!

 

[ikky47]

Rabada has better numbers than Steyn due to pitches they played on. SA pitches have been fast bowling paradise in last 6-7 years.

Steyn is the better bowler in Asian conditions and would say Rabada is better in Australia/England.

 

[Ab Fan]

Steyn is the better bowler in Asian conditions and would say Rabada is better in Australia/England.

He is helped by bowling friendly conditions in 2016 tour. Didn’t impressed in last tour of Aus.

 

[kron]

Rabada has better numbers than Steyn due to pitches they played on. SA pitches have been fast bowling paradise in last 6-7 years.

That's true. Steyn also benefited because he played on many seaming tracks back then. Although he did play plenty on flat wickets too.

Steyn did have the support of having 3 4 atg batsmen. Rabada has none right now. He had Elgar who is good qdk van der dussen and bavuma previously. Only bavuma remains. Even so it pales in comparison to the batting support steyn had.

 

[Ab Fan]

That's true. Steyn also benefited because he played on many seaming tracks back then. Although he did play plenty on flat wickets too.

Steyn did have the support of having 3 4 atg batsmen. Rabada has none right now. He had Elgar who is good qdk van der dussen and bavuma previously. Only bavuma remains. Even so it pales in comparison to the batting support steyn had.

In bowling friendly conditions which Rabada has got, he doesn’t really need batting support much. Those pitches have literally been seamers paradise and the matches have been bowling shootouts. His away avg vs non minnows which reads 29 is an evidence suggesting that his stats are a bit inflated due to this. He is basically a South African Waqar Younis.

 

[kron]

In bowling friendly conditions which Rabada has got, he doesn’t really need batting support much. Those pitches have literally been seamers paradise and the matches have been bowling shootouts. His away avg vs non minnows which reads 29 is an evidence suggesting that his stats are a bit inflated due to this. He is basically a South African Waqar Younis.

That's cause in away games his batting support cast is rubbish. Players can't play spin or even bounce mostly. Give him kalis abd amla and Smith then you would see his numbers look very similar to steyn.

People don't understand how much batting can affect a bowlers performance too. You go into a game and win the toss. Your batsmen can last over 80 overs plus and put in 300 plus consistently then your bowlers get additional rest to run with intensity and bowl at tired players.

Rabada had useless philtrundler too in bowling support before.

Right now he has no great spinner to support in Asian wickets either. Mahraj sucks.

Will be interesting to see rabada jansen and burger in India though.

 

[Buffet]

Gap is bigger than what you are trying to show. Include NZ and the difference will be visible.

If Wasim's greatness depends on doing well against bottom tier teams and not able to do well collectively in matches involving 6 test teams then it's not gretaness, it's just very good bowler. NZ was poor team after Hadlee retired. SL was minnow till mid 90s.

What makes Bumrah great is collectively doing well against top 4 sides of his era( Aus, Eng, NZ, SA) and that too in their own den. Gap is actually massive with one bowler being Elite test bowler and another very good test bowler. Bumrah averages 9 against WI and SL, but it does not make him great. Bumrah can average in single digit against SL/Wi to take 100 more wickets and it won't serve any other purpose than stats padding. It may make longevity crowd or fans blindly citing career average happy but It does not make a bowler great.

Greatness is doing well against good teams and if you can do it in their den then you are elite level. Impact is taking 5-fers in win in tough tours. Wasim did neither.

 

[Buffet]

Bumrah has surpassed all other bowlers in history of the game. Not just Wasim.

Nah, Marshall/Hadlee/McGrath in test and McGrath in Test + ODI are comfortably ahead right now. I am not listing, but you can make a case of some other names as well.

He has surpassed others only if you talk about all 3 formats. Yes, he is unmatched if you take all 3 formats, but I think it's a wrong way to look due to how long all 3 formats have existed and test is surely more weight for legacy of pacer.

 

[BCCI-Enforcer]

Nah, Marshall/Hadlee/McGrath in test and McGrath in Test + ODI are comfortably ahead right now. I am not listing, but you can make a case of some other names as well.

He has surpassed others only if you talk about all 3 formats. Yes, he is unmatched if you take all 3 formats, but I think it's a wrong way to look due to how long all 3 formats have existed and test is surely more weight for legacy of pacer.

Statistically he is ahead of all of them and bigger match winner than them all.

 

[Buffet]

You shouldn’t be excluding New Zealand or Sri Lanka over their entire careers.

Sl was minnow for the first 10 years of Wasim's career with 3-4 test wins in entire history and NZ was poor after Hadlee retired. I was trying to see elite level performance and that means doing well away against top tier teams.

But since you have objection,


Bumrah in Aus/NZ/Eng/SA( top 4 oppositions ): Avg 20.4 - SR 44

Wasim in Zim/BD/SL/NZ/WI/Aus/Ind/SA/Eng ( includes bottom tier + minnows ) : Avg 24.6 - SR 57

Gap is massive when you take minnows and bottom tier teams for Wasim and only take top tier teams for Bumrah. You don't have to actually try anything else. Clearly, one is very good test bowler and another is elite level test bowler.

Now Bumrah does averages 9 against Sl and WI. Wi has won 11 and Sl have won 22 tests against non-minnows in the last 10 years. Far far better than Sl of first 10 years of Wasim. What would Bumrah record will look like if Bumrah gets to stat pads against SL/Wl for 100 cheap wickets? We don't know that and that's jsut stats padding. But we don't have to rely on that to see how far ahead Bumrah is when comapred to Wasim. With this kind of gap, it does not make any sense to say Bumrah needs to do to this or that to get to Wasim's level.

 

[Buffet]

Statistically he is ahead of all of them and bigger match winner than them all.

Stats has many parts. Match winner, avg, SR, away record and but it also has how many wickets.

He is in the same class as Marshall/Hadlee/McGrath. Same class does not mean better. To be better than them he got to do it for longer. You can argue that bigger match winner or slightly lower average, but gap is not huge to cover for 100-150 less wickets. If he can have one more ATG series in tough tours and 50 high quality wickets at home, he goes ahead of all test bowlers. I don't think he will do it though, it's very hard to do for any bowler to be elite in all formats and also do it for veyr long.

He does not have a huge gap like he has against 2 Ws in test. If gap was huge then you can say that bowler is in different tier and talking about longevity is meaningless. Test longevity is meaningful when it comes to Marshall, Hadlee, McGrath etc. Bumrah is not in different tier.

 

[Buffet]

Also what people are not taking into account, this isn’t to downplay the quality of Bumrah but he is currently bowling in the most pace friendly era of test cricket. Essentially the conditions are now geared towards wins or losses no doubt he’s a sensational bowler, however the current era is even more bowler friendly than the 90s and cricket is a lot more advanced and professional than what it was back in the 80s and 90s

Is it that much tilted to be a factor? I don't think bowlers are finding it easier to average low either home or away. In 90s, we had 12 HTBs bolwers and that stands out in any 10 years of period.


Sub 25 Avg - 70 plus wickets


In the 90s at home - 12 bowlers
Last 10 years home - 7 bowlers


In the 90s away - 5 bowlers
The Last 10 years - 3 bowlers


-------------------------

Tests are more result oriented for sure, but no evidence exist for bowlers finding it too much easy to have sub 25 avg in the last 10 years when compared to 90s.

 

[kron]

Nah, Marshall/Hadlee/McGrath in test and McGrath in Test + ODI are comfortably ahead right now. I am not listing, but you can make a case of some other names as well.

He has surpassed others only if you talk about all 3 formats. Yes, he is unmatched if you take all 3 formats, but I think it's a wrong way to look due to how long all 3 formats have existed and test is surely more weight for legacy of pacer.

hadlee i have checked. actually not good enough to be the absolute best.
average in nz and few asian countries barring india was poor

hadlee had no support though. so that is a factor. still in top 5 however but not absolute best

also got to stat pad at home in friendly conditions, yet averages higher than 25 at home.

 

[Buffet]

hadlee i have checked. actually not good enough to be the absolute best.
average in nz and few asian countries barring india was poor

hadlee had no support though. so that is a factor. still in top 5 however but not absolute best

also got to stat pad at home in friendly conditions, yet averages higher than 25 at home.

Hadlee is 4th best in SR away and 6th best in average away. I won't bring stats pad for bowler like that.

Stats pad can be applied for bowlers who did not do well away or perform against better teams and relied on having good over all stats by doing HTB or bashing weaker teams. Hadlee was not one of them.

Imagine if Hadlee had support like Marshall or even McGrath. I think he would have picked less wickets for sure, but his avg would have been a bit lower. It's very hard to carry the bowling alone. Doing as team is easier.

For me, Marshall is the best in test. Then McGrath and Hadlee in any order without much gap. No issue with anyone saying Mcgrath ahead because I do it most of the times myself. Then Ambrose, Steyn, Donald, IK etc come later.

 

[kron]

Hadlee is 4th best in SR away and 6th best in average away. I won't bring stats pad for bowler like that.

Stats pad can be applied for bowlers who did not do well away or perform against better teams and relied on having good over all stats by doing HTB or bashing weaker teams. Hadlee was not one of them.

Imagine if Hadlee had support like Marshall or even McGrath. I think he would have picked less wickets for sure, but his avg would have been a bit lower. It's very hard to carry the bowling alone. Doing as team is easier.

For me, Marshall is the best in test. Then McGrath and Hadlee in any order without much gap. No issue with anyone saying Mcgrath ahead because I do it most of the times myself. Then Ambrose, Steyn, Donald, IK etc come later.


View attachment 149196


View attachment 149197

bumrah is great at home too. some insane average. but he needs to showcase a couple more times vs say sa next year at home and also vs nz i guess at home. i know he will do well away even in nz. he will learn there too.

he may have been preserving the body for aus series so under performed at home vs nz.
i reckon he will play maybe 15 more games at home and thats plenty. and then 10 at home.

 

[Buffet]

bumrah is great at home too. some insane average. but he needs to showcase a couple more times vs say sa next year at home and also vs nz i guess at home. i know he will do well away even in nz. he will learn there too.

he may have been preserving the body for aus series so under performed at home vs nz.
i reckon he will play maybe 15 more games at home and thats plenty. and then 10 at home.

He needs 2-3 good series at home to cross 100 plus wickets at home and nothing else. Who cares what he averages in NZ? It's more meaningful what a bowler averages in top 4-5 opposition taken together. Marshall avg 32-33 in NZ, but it's not a negative when the same bowler averages 21 away without playing minnows like SL of that time. I think it may satisfy some check mark kind of fans but if you have lots of 5-fers in win in tough tours and average lower 21 away without minnows then it's just nitpicking and nothing else.

Bumrah having a great series in NZ will enhance his reputation but he has done more than enough taken together against top oppositions in their dens to go down as an elite and top 10 test bowler.

Having said that I would love to see hom bowl some ATG series be it home or away. I loved watching Wasim, Warne, Steyn and now love watching Bumrah. A great entertainment. Hopefully, we will see even a better bowlers in future otherwise what's the point in following cricket.

 

[Mamoon]

The only thing Bumrah has achieved in this series is useless stat padding. After from the first Test, he has been bowling India to defeats. The trend will hopefully continue in Sydney.

 

[BCCI-Enforcer]

The only thing Bumrah has achieved in this series is useless stat padding. After from the first Test, he has been bowling India to defeats. The trend will hopefully continue in Sydney.

He has produced one of the most lethal spells in cricket history across a series.

 

[Ab Fan]

Sl was minnow for the first 10 years of Wasim's career with 3-4 test wins in entire history and NZ was poor after Hadlee retired. I was trying to see elite level performance and that means doing well away against top tier teams.

But since you have objection,


Bumrah in Aus/NZ/Eng/SA( top 4 oppositions ): Avg 20.4 - SR 44

Wasim in Zim/BD/SL/NZ/WI/Aus/Ind/SA/Eng ( includes bottom tier + minnows ) : Avg 24.6 - SR 57

Gap is massive when you take minnows and bottom tier teams for Wasim and only take top tier teams for Bumrah. You don't have to actually try anything else. Clearly, one is very good test bowler and another is elite level test bowler.

Now Bumrah does averages 9 against Sl and WI. Wi has won 11 and Sl have won 22 tests against non-minnows in the last 10 years. Far far better than Sl of first 10 years of Wasim. What would Bumrah record will look like if Bumrah gets to stat pads against SL/Wl for 100 cheap wickets? We don't know that and that's jsut stats padding. But we don't have to rely on that to see how far ahead Bumrah is when comapred to Wasim. With this kind of gap, it does not make any sense to say Bumrah needs to do to this or that to get to Wasim's level.

@mominsaigol @sweep_shot @ikky47 , any explanation to this or we accept that the gap margin is huge between Bumrah and Wasim in Test cricket and Bumrah is way ahead?

 

[Ab Fan]

The only thing Bumrah has achieved in this series is useless stat padding. After from the first Test, he has been bowling India to defeats. The trend will hopefully continue in Sydney.

Not his fault that his batsmen cant save a test match by batting out for one day. 1 day and 10 wickets left, yet can’t save it. Blame on batters here. Pitch was good for batting.

 

[mominsaigol]

@mominsaigol @sweep_shot @ikky47 , any explanation to this or we accept that the gap margin is huge between Bumrah and Wasim in Test cricket and Bumrah is way ahead?

Any explanation for Bumrah's 45 avg vs NZ which no great test bowler ever achieved such a pathetic feat againat any team?

Or how about an explanation for how bumrah doesn't possess a single 10 wicket haul depsite playing for 9 years?

Or how about an explanation for how Bumrah possesses such an amazing record vs eng, Aus, NZ and Pakistan in knockout stages, You know the most important games in your whiteball career?

Do tell oh so do tell.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Until Bumrah's action has been tested, very difficult to compare with normal pace bowlers who use a classical action.

 

[RexRex]

Bumrah has long gone past Akram, the only two contenders now are the legendary Ms - Mcgrath and Marshall.

 

[aboveandbeyond]

Hadlee is 4th best in SR away and 6th best in average away. I won't bring stats pad for bowler like that.

Stats pad can be applied for bowlers who did not do well away or perform against better teams and relied on having good over all stats by doing HTB or bashing weaker teams. Hadlee was not one of them.

Imagine if Hadlee had support like Marshall or even McGrath. I think he would have picked less wickets for sure, but his avg would have been a bit lower. It's very hard to carry the bowling alone. Doing as team is easier.

For me, Marshall is the best in test. Then McGrath and Hadlee in any order without much gap. No issue with anyone saying Mcgrath ahead because I do it most of the times myself. Then Ambrose, Steyn, Donald, IK etc come later.


View attachment 149196


View attachment 149197

For me it's a toss up between Marshall and Mcgrath, with imran coming behind these 2. Imran lost 3 years of peak which would have guaranteed him 500+ test wickets

 

[Azaad]

Until Bumrah's action has been tested, very difficult to compare with normal pace bowlers who use a classical action.

Was Akram's action tested?

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Was Akram's action tested?

There was no testing at that time.

 

[Ab Fan]

Any explanation for Bumrah's 45 avg vs NZ which no great test bowler ever achieved such a pathetic feat againat any team?

Or how about an explanation for how bumrah doesn't possess a single 10 wicket haul depsite playing for 9 years?

Or how about an explanation for how Bumrah possesses such an amazing record vs eng, Aus, NZ and Pakistan in knockout stages, You know the most important games in your whiteball career?

Do tell oh so do tell.

NZ is included in the filter applied by @Buffet already. He averages 20 including SENA.

10-fers is a meaningless stat. He has many 9-fers. He has many 5-fers in an inning. How exactly would a 10-fer make any difference? These are just statistical points made.

I can do the same for Wasim too. He has a best test rating point of 831 in ICC test ratings. Every other ATG bowler you think in last 30-40 years are sitting at peak number between 890-930. Wasim’s peak is 831 which is way behind. Can you explain this?

That’s a white ball discussion. Bumrah has already done well in every single game he played in WT20 last year and won us the final too. He was excellent in 2023 WC too. If you apply such filters like WC, then the knockouts game and then in that also pick opposition as per your choice and not pick South Africa who were in WT20 Finals that’s just being over-dramatic and losing the argument. We can do the same with any player in the history of the game and demean him.

I think you have got the responses there but my question remains unanswered. With such a huge gap in average between Bumrah and Wasim and that too while taking Bumrah vs top teams and Wasim vs everyone including minnows, how is this even a comparison anymore? Can we accept that Bumrah is way ahead of Wasim? I think we should accept because nobody has an answer to it yet. :thinking

 

[Ab Fan]

He needs 2-3 good series at home to cross 100 plus wickets at home and nothing else. Who cares what he averages in NZ? It's more meaningful what a bowler averages in top 4-5 opposition taken together. Marshall avg 32-33 in NZ, but it's not a negative when the same bowler averages 21 away without playing minnows like SL of that time. I think it may satisfy some check mark kind of fans but if you have lots of 5-fers in win in tough tours and average lower 21 away without minnows then it's just nitpicking and nothing else.

Bumrah having a great series in NZ will enhance his reputation but he has done more than enough taken together against top oppositions in their dens to go down as an elite and top 10 test bowler.

@mominsaigol, NZ argument has been answered already in this post. You can refer this. Very nicely articulated and responded.

 

[kron]

NZ is included in the filter applied by @Buffet already. He averages 20 including SENA.

10-fers is a meaningless stat. He has many 9-fers. He has many 5-fers in an inning. How exactly would a 10-fer make any difference? These are just statistical points made.

I can do the same for Wasim too. He has a best test rating point of 831 in ICC test ratings. Every other ATG bowler you think in last 30-40 years are sitting at peak number between 890-930. Wasim’s peak is 831 which is way behind. Can you explain this?

That’s a white ball discussion. Bumrah has already done well in every single game he played in WT20 last year and won us the final too. He was excellent in 2023 WC too. If you apply such filters like WC, then the knockouts game and then in that also pick opposition as per your choice and not pick South Africa who were in WT20 Finals that’s just being over-dramatic and losing the argument. We can do the same with any player in the history of the game and demean him.

I think you have got the responses there but my question remains unanswered. With such a huge gap in average between Bumrah and Wasim and that too while taking Bumrah vs top teams and Wasim vs everyone including minnows, how is this even a comparison anymore? Can we accept that Bumrah is way ahead of Wasim? I think we should accept because nobody has an answer to it yet. :thinking

While we are all fighting over who is superior between bumrah imran and wasim etc

But all these 3 greats are laughing at their bank accounts and looking down upon all of us morons arguing about them. Lel. Such is life.

But atleast none of us suck up.

 

[BCCI-Enforcer]

Indian shouldn't seek so much external validation.

We are now opinion makers and shapers. We don't need to rely on these flawed analysis to determine greatness. They will never be satisfied with Indian player on top.

 

[Ab Fan]

Here is the all time ICC bowlers rankings:-

Wasim Akram is way behind sitting at 830 peak rating. I don’t see any ATG bowler sitting that much behind in ratings.

All Time ICC Test Bowling Rankings : Best Ever Test Bowlers

ICC Player Rankings

www.relianceiccrankings.com

 

[Ab Fan]

The ICC ratings does raise legitimate questions on Wasim’s stature as a test bowler. Just look at the names that are above him:-

Dennis Lillee is at 884.
Kapil Dev is at 877.
Courtney Walsh is at 867.
Shoaib Akhtar is at 855.
Mitchell Johnson is at 849.
Anil Kumble is at 859.
Wasim Akram is at 830.

Bumrah, Cummins, Rabada, Steyn, Anderson, Ambrose, McGrath, Waqar, Donald, Pollock all above 890 though.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Indian shouldn't seek so much external validation.

We are now opinion makers and shapers. We don't need to rely on these flawed analysis to determine greatness. They will never be satisfied with Indian player on top.

That would carry more weight....if you weren't here seeking external validation.

 

[BCCI-Enforcer]

That would carry more weight....if you weren't here seeking external validation.

I am here to provide a robust counter narrative to anti India propaganda that's all.

 

[RexRex]

The ICC ratings does raise legitimate questions on Wasim’s stature as a test bowler. Just look at the names that are above him:-

Dennis Lillee is at 884.
Kapil Dev is at 877.
Courtney Walsh is at 867.
Shoaib Akhtar is at 855.
Mitchell Johnson is at 849.
Anil Kumble is at 859.
Wasim Akram is at 830.

Bumrah, Cummins, Rabada, Steyn, Anderson, Ambrose, McGrath, Waqar, Donald, Pollock all above 890 though.

I have a feeling ICC ratings places great importance on multi-year purple patches of which Akram didn't have many.

For the same reason, I'm curious to see what SRT's ICC rating is compared to other test batsmen.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

I am here to provide a robust counter narrative to anti India propaganda that's all.

That's seeking external validation. Pakistan should not matter enough for you to be bothered about it. Unless you think Pakistan is really too important.

 

[mominsaigol]

@mominsaigol, NZ argument has been answered already in this post. You can refer this. Very nicely articulated and responded.

First of, Tell me if I should respond to you, or if I shpuld respond to Buffet?

if he's your favorite, then I understand, cause you clearly cannot formulate your own arguments

Now as for @Buffet Let's debate.

Why doesn't the NZ avg matter? Do you realise the difference between 32-33 and 45?

 

[RexRex]

He needs 2-3 good series at home to cross 100 plus wickets at home and nothing else. Who cares what he averages in NZ?

This mominsaigol chap does, he is rabidly fixated on Bumrah's kiwi average .. talk about scraping the barrel.

 

[mominsaigol]

NZ is included in the filter applied by @Buffet already. He averages 20 including SENA.

10-fers is a meaningless stat. He has many 9-fers. He has many 5-fers in an inning. How exactly would a 10-fer make any difference? These are just statistical points made.

I can do the same for Wasim too. He has a best test rating point of 831 in ICC test ratings. Every other ATG bowler you think in last 30-40 years are sitting at peak number between 890-930. Wasim’s peak is 831 which is way behind. Can you explain this?

That’s a white ball discussion. Bumrah has already done well in every single game he played in WT20 last year and won us the final too. He was excellent in 2023 WC too. If you apply such filters like WC, then the knockouts game and then in that also pick opposition as per your choice and not pick South Africa who were in WT20 Finals that’s just being over-dramatic and losing the argument. We can do the same with any player in the history of the game and demean him.

I think you have got the responses there but my question remains unanswered. With such a huge gap in average between Bumrah and Wasim and that too while taking Bumrah vs top teams and Wasim vs everyone including minnows, how is this even a comparison anymore? Can we accept that Bumrah is way ahead of Wasim? I think we should accept because nobody has an answer to it yet. :thinking

For bumrah to be ahead of wasim he needs to finish his career with an avg of 19 to begin with and not stop mid way, otherwise kohli could be argued to be a better test batsmen then Sachin.

Since 7 years ago he avergaed 57 had 27 test centuries etc etc.

Bumrah atm has more then 2x less wickets then wasim in both odi + test.

Followed by the fact that he has a voracious red mark of 45 avg vs NZ, And a horrible odi wc tournament record in knockout stages followed by zero 10 wicket hauls while wasim has 5.

No great bowler and I repeat no great bowler in history has avergaed 40+ against any opposition, hence bumrah needs to put this avg down to even be considered plus take many more wickets.

However the issue qith you is that I don't even get your criterias.

You seem to ignore red flags for people like ashwin, Jadeja and just Shove them in ATG lists for no apprant reason.

It's very very very easy to just say who cares about this and that to cover up red flags.

I can simply say who cares about this and that whenever you bring up arguments downplaying wasim akram lol.

As I said formulate your own arguments rather then having buffet or anyone hand hold you.

 

[mominsaigol]

This mominsaigol chap does, he is rabidly fixated on Bumrah's kiwi average .. talk about scraping the barrel.

It's not scraping the barrel, Just because someone isn't Indian doesn't mean they have to automatically accept bunrah as their father.

Name one quality bowler in the history of the game from wasim, Marshall, mcgrath etc etc who avg 45 against a certain team? Or even 35+?

Secondly zero 10 wicket hauls followed by the fact his wicket tally isn't anywhere near atm.

Only Indian posters can hype such players to the moon.

I still remember those kohli test arguments 7 years ago .

Debate and debunk these arguments Properly rather then handholding one another.

 

[Mamoon]

Indian shouldn't seek so much external validation.

That is a noble thought. However, it is about 70 years late now. The entire existence of India hinges on seeking external validation.

 

[Ab Fan]

I have a feeling ICC ratings places great importance on multi-year purple patches of which Akram didn't have many.

For the same reason, I'm curious to see what SRT's ICC rating is compared to other test batsmen.

It’s the peak rating basically. It doesn’t really take other factors like consistency, longevity and opposition you faced or the pitches you played in consideration. But despite that, every great player would have a peak rating of 875 or above. Some may have higher peak than others and hence it is not the only factor but here the gulf of difference in case of Wasim suggests he was never a top level bowler. His peak rating of 830 means he never really reached the heights which about 80 bowlers did. In case of SRT, you can say his peak was also not as high but it was still good enough as visible by his rating of 898. But in case of Akram, the margin is huge.

 

[Ab Fan]

It’s never about external validation but trying to expose their hypocrisy which deep down they are well aware of it too.

 

[Mamoon]

Funny how ICC rating/ranking never matter when it comes to Pakistani players, e.g. Babar/Shaheen in ODIs.

 

[BCCI-Enforcer]

That's seeking external validation. Pakistan should not matter enough for you to be bothered about it. Unless you think Pakistan is really too important.

Who says Pakistan matters?

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Who says Pakistan matters?

You just hit the YES button once more.

 

[worldlife92]

The only thing Bumrah has achieved in this series is useless stat padding. After from the first Test, he has been bowling India to defeats. The trend will hopefully continue in Sydney.

Winning matches is not a one man job. It is a team effort. You can play brilliantly but end up losing and you can play poorly but end up winning.

Khawaja has had a rubbish series but he will end up winning the series while Bumrah for all his brilliance in this series will end up losing.

It is absurd to gauge players by winning/losing in team sports.

I'm just quoting YOUR comment here. These are your words.

I know your frustration with the Indian fans but please don't downplay someone's achievements who has been genuinely world class in this series.

 

[Buffet]

Here is the all time ICC bowlers rankings:-

Wasim Akram is way behind sitting at 830 peak rating. I don’t see any ATG bowler sitting that much behind in ratings.

This peak rating becomes high if a player has sustained good performance. You do get high ratings if you do well against good teams. One flaw is that HTBs can do accumutale lots of points if schedule has lots of home tests despite being poor away.

But you are right, 830 peak rating is very low for some one like Wasim. Main reason is his not that great performance against top teams home and away combined. Peak rating is not that meaninfful in itself, how long you maintain high ratings is more meaningful. Having said that most good test players will have 850+ pooints due to doing reasonably well for some period in their career. Wasim 830 simply stands out as too low. Not sure if any other ATG has such a low peak rating.

Anyway, peak rating of 830 is just too low, but this rating point has flaw as I pointed out. Wasim has more balanced home and away than many other bowlers who have higher peak rating due to HTB. I will take Wasim's record over those bowlers. Now elite bowlers will have a much higher peak rating and also balanced home/away record.

 

[BCCI-Enforcer]

Bumrah will surpass everyone but the two only remaining will be Sydney Barnes and Lohman.

It will become like Sachin v Bradman.

 

[Buffet]

I have a feeling ICC ratings places great importance on multi-year purple patches of which Akram didn't have many.

For the same reason, I'm curious to see what SRT's ICC rating is compared to other test batsmen.

SRT was very good agasint top teams home and away combined. So he has peak rating of 899.

Wasim was not that great against home and away combined against good teams, so he has unusually low peak rating of 830.

In defence of Wasim, he has a balanced home and away record compared to many HTBs who who simply got lots of home tests in a row to get to high peak ratings despite being inferior.

High rating trend over career is far more important than peak rating anyway.

 

[Ab Fan]

For bumrah to be ahead of wasim he needs to finish his career with an avg of 19 to begin with and not stop mid way, otherwise kohli could be argued to be a better test batsmen then Sachin.

Since 7 years ago he avergaed 57 had 27 test centuries etc etc.

Bumrah atm has more then 2x less wickets then wasim in both odi + test.

Followed by the fact that he has a voracious red mark of 45 avg vs NZ, And a horrible odi wc tournament record in knockout stages followed by zero 10 wicket hauls while wasim has 5.

No great bowler and I repeat no great bowler in history has avergaed 40+ against any opposition, hence bumrah needs to put this avg down to even be considered plus take many more wickets.

However the issue qith you is that I don't even get your criterias.

You seem to ignore red flags for people like ashwin, Jadeja and just Shove them in ATG lists for no apprant reason.

It's very very very easy to just say who cares about this and that to cover up red flags.

I can simply say who cares about this and that whenever you bring up arguments downplaying wasim akram lol.

As I said formulate your own arguments rather then having buffet or anyone hand hold you.

That’s absolutely incorrect.

Wasim averages 23.7 at end of his career. You are claiming that to be better than Wasim, Bumrah has to end his career average at 19? Rofl

Wasim’s higher wickets tally is mostly down to minnow bashing vs weaker teams and his away record is also far worse than Bumrah’s away record. Picking home wickets vs lower tier teams like NZ, Zim, SL in early 90s don’t make a player great. It is the performance against the top teams that matters and there the sample difference is hardly any big. There is literally no comparison there and that’s why you seem to have no answer to the argument that has been raised to you multiple times.

Again, what is up with this NZ nonsense. Do you know what was Lillee average in Pakistan? He averaged 100 there. Muralitharan and Warne have pathetic averages against Australia and India already. It seems you seriously make your arguments without knowing the history. It is the overall performance vs all top teams combined that matters.

I can formulate my arguments very well but it becomes boring when I find that you are not capable enough to respond to any of my arguments and repeat the same illogical statements that you are doing from previous posts.

 

[Mamoon]

He has produced one of the most lethal spells in cricket history across a series.

Not his fault that his batsmen cant save a test match by batting out for one day. 1 day and 10 wickets left, yet can’t save it. Blame on batters here. Pitch was good for batting.

Winning matches is not a one man job. It is a team effort. You can play brilliantly but end up losing and you can play poorly but end up winning.

Khawaja has had a rubbish series but he will end up winning the series while Bumrah for all his brilliance in this series will end up losing.

It is absurd to gauge players by winning/losing in team sports.

I'm just quoting YOUR comment here. These are your words.

I know your frustration with the Indian fans but please don't downplay someone's achievements who has been genuinely world class in this series.

Bumrah is as responsible for the MCG loss as any other bowler, because his bowling to Lyon and Boland was pure filth.

But this is the history of Bumrah. Apart from the T20 WC final in 2024, he has always let India down in key moments. The CT final, the WTC final, the 2023 WC final. A very good bowler but a choker.

 

[Devadwal]

Bumrah is as responsible for the MCG loss as any other bowler, because his bowling to Lyon and Boland was pure filth.

But this is the history of Bumrah. Apart from the T20 WC final in 2024, he has always let India down in key moments. The CT final, the WTC final, the 2023 WC final. A very good bowler but a choker.

Did you have any cricketing knowledge or just talking pure nonsence ?

Do you Even know how many overs nad spell bumrah had bowled IN The MCG test ?


LAMO

 

[mominsaigol]

That’s absolutely incorrect.

Wasim averages 23.7 at end of his career. You are claiming that to be better than Wasim, Bumrah has to end his career average at 19? Rofl

Wasim’s higher wickets tally is mostly down to minnow bashing vs weaker teams and his away record is also far worse than Bumrah’s away record. Picking home wickets vs lower tier teams like NZ, Zim, SL in early 90s don’t make a player great. It is the performance against the top teams that matters and there the sample difference is hardly any big. There is literally no comparison there and that’s why you seem to have no answer to the argument that has been raised to you multiple times.

Again, what is up with this NZ nonsense. Do you know what was Lillee average in Pakistan? He averaged 100 there. Muralitharan and Warne have pathetic averages against Australia and India already. It seems you seriously make your arguments without knowing the history. It is the overall performance vs all top teams combined that matters.

I can formulate my arguments very well but it becomes boring when I find that you are not capable enough to respond to any of my arguments and repeat the same illogical statements that you are doing from previous posts.

Fix NZ 45 Avg
Pick up atleast 5 10 wicket hauls
Retire with an avg of 19
Get more wickets then wasim in test and odi

^^ Meet this criteria and we are golden. What's stopping you.

 

[Ab Fan]

Wasim and Waqar are same case as Kane Williamson or KG Rabada or Shaun Pollock. Their stats look great but they are inflated due to minnow bashing of Zim and BD. In case of Wasim, Waqar, they also picked a load of wickets vs NZ, SL.

In case of Rabada and Pollock, they have picked loads of wickets vs Zim, BD and WI.

In contrast, Bumrah, Cummins, Ambrose, McGrath have played vs top teams a lot more. Hence, they are top tier bowlers while Wasim, Rabada, S Pollock and Waqar are lower tier test bowlers in my opinion.

 

[jnaveen1980]

Wasim and Waqar are same case as Kane Williamson or KG Rabada or Shaun Pollock. Their stats look great but they are inflated due to minnow bashing of Zim and BD. In case of Wasim, Waqar, they also picked a load of wickets vs NZ, SL.

In case of Rabada and Pollock, they have picked loads of wickets vs Zim, BD and WI.

In contrast, Bumrah, Cummins, Ambrose, McGrath have played vs top teams a lot more. Hence, they are top tier bowlers while Wasim, Rabada, S Pollock and Waqar are lower tier test bowlers in my opinion.

My favorite Pak fast bowler is Akram. Will always be him. But his one day performances are often conflated with Test record. In Tests he picked a lot of tail wickets.

There was an Analysis on the australian website about quality of wickets taken by bowlers

https://www.theroar.com.au/2021/03/19/whats-a-wicket-worth-part-2-world-wide-comparisons/

Pakistan
As identified earlier, Wasim Akram (35 per cent of 414 wickets) is the highest-ranked fast bowler of all time, in terms of dismissing lower-order batsmen.

His best-performed compatriots are modern-era spin bowlers Abdul Qadir (33 per cent of 236), Yasir Shah (32 per cent of 235), Saqlain Mushtaq (35 per cent of 208) and Saeed Ajmal (34 per cent of 178).

Conversely, attacking wrist-spinner Mushtaq Ahmed (only 24 per cent of 185) was not a prolific remover of tailenders. This may have been due to competing for opportunities with Shoaib Akhtar and in particular his captains Wasim Akram, Imran Khan and Waqar Younis.

Although Mushtaq dismissed a recognised batsman five times more than Saqlain, his overall career wicket total was 23 fewer.

 

[DeadlyVenom]

My favorite Pak fast bowler is Akram. Will always be him. But his one day performances are often conflated with Test record. In Tests he picked a lot of tail wickets.

There was an Analysis on the australian website about quality of wickets taken by bowlers

https://www.theroar.com.au/2021/03/19/whats-a-wicket-worth-part-2-world-wide-comparisons/

Pakistan
As identified earlier, Wasim Akram (35 per cent of 414 wickets) is the highest-ranked fast bowler of all time, in terms of dismissing lower-order batsmen.

His best-performed compatriots are modern-era spin bowlers Abdul Qadir (33 per cent of 236), Yasir Shah (32 per cent of 235), Saqlain Mushtaq (35 per cent of 208) and Saeed Ajmal (34 per cent of 178).

Conversely, attacking wrist-spinner Mushtaq Ahmed (only 24 per cent of 185) was not a prolific remover of tailenders. This may have been due to competing for opportunities with Shoaib Akhtar and in particular his captains Wasim Akram, Imran Khan and Waqar Younis.

Although Mushtaq dismissed a recognised batsman five times more than Saqlain, his overall career wicket total was 23 fewer.

I made a thread recently about Mushtaq. It didn't get much traction but his away from Asia record is up there with the GOATs of spin.