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How important will be the role of spinners in ICC World Cup 2023?

adzzy786

First Class Captain
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Mar 1, 2009
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We have seen how important spinners have been in this World Cup for India. They have contributed massively to the wins India has had.

Now we have seen that Afghanistan spinners have beaten England.

Pakistan currently is struggling with spinners in Shadab and Nawaz. Is it time we dropped them both and bring in two specialist spinners?

Are we going to see as much success with those team who do not have enough or recognised spinners like Australia
 
Unless someone is injured they can't add right? If Pakistan is prepared to compromise on batting depth that is a worthy risk. But i doubt Pakistan wants that
 
Question to all cricket lovers who have some inside info as well

Usama Mir: How good he is? Can he replace Shadab in next match?​

 
Question to all cricket lovers who have some inside info as well

Usama Mir: How good he is? Can he replace Shadab in next match?​

For sure he is going to replace shadab in next match else get ready to have additional 50 runs on scoreboard.

Usama has better control on his line and length and he is genuinely a wicket taking bowler.
 
They will play a very important role for Pakistan as they have two of the fraud spinners in the tournament. Nawaz and Shadab are getting picked on the back of their little bit of batting ability, their bowling is rubbish.
 
Spinners in this World Cup....

Only Sri Lankan and Australian spinners have performed worse than Pakistani spinners.




1697390857768.png
 
Spin in India is always a trump card, look at our batting in 2011 WC we had King of dot balls back then Hafeez YK Shafiq Misbah yet we defended competitive totals curteousy Ajmal Afridi Hafeez
 
Not every spinner will play an important role in this World Cup, except for a few special talents like Rasheed and Kuldeep. Most of the pitches are batting friendly.
 
Spinners will come into play as the pitches go through wear and tear. Pakistan needs to pick Abrar and Usama Mir. Mohammad Nawaz and Shadab Khan are just not up to it for the time being.
 
Biggest upset of WC so far.. Afghans won over defending champions England with 69 run margin

AFG spinners took 8 wickets combined
10 wickets by Afghan spinners so far. 5 By Rashid, 3 Najeeb and 2 by Nabi.
 
He can contribute as much as an ideal number 8 position batter should.
it’s irrelevant as how much Rauf and Shaheen can bat. Know it’s been a while Pakistan played one, but thereis something known as specialist spinner.
 
Seems like spin is making the difference this world cup and Pakistan is not equipped in that department.
It's not just spin though - our bowing all round looks weak.
Fast bowling looking a bit weak due to Shaheen's bad form / maybe carrying an injury and Naseem's injury. We are basically reliant on Hasan Ali with the new bowl and Harris Rauf in the middle / death overs.

Our spinners are unlikely to make the difference in the middle overs as Mo Nawaz's line is a bit predictable and doesn't spin the ball much + Shadab's line and length is worrying.

Pakistan is very badly missing a quality allrounder which someone like Imaad Wasim might have been pretty useful on the bench.
 
Seems like spin is making the difference this world cup and Pakistan is not equipped in that department.
It's not just spin though - our bowing all round looks weak.
Fast bowling looking a bit weak due to Shaheen's bad form / maybe carrying an injury and Naseem's injury. We are basically reliant on Hasan Ali with the new bowl and Harris Rauf in the middle / death overs.

Our spinners are unlikely to make the difference in the middle overs as Mo Nawaz's line is a bit predictable and doesn't spin the ball much + Shadab's line and length is worrying.

Pakistan is very badly missing a quality allrounder which someone like Imaad Wasim might have been pretty useful on the bench.
I don’t understand Pakistan’s newfound obsession with spin bowling “allrounders” who aren’t really spinners. Imad Wasim is a downgrade from Nawaz even.
We need a specialist spinner like Usama or Abrar. Ideally both, irrespective of batting ability.
Spinners don’t necessarily have to have batting ability. They can play as specialist bowlers like fast bowlers do. To take a more extreme stance, pak can drop Shadab and Hassan Ali, and play both Abrar and Usama. 2 pacers can be enough on a pitch like Chennai.
Afghanistan for example plays both Mujeeb and Rashid Khan as specialt spinners, although Rashid can add a few runs with the bat, but he is not an “allrounder”.
 
They will play a very important role for Pakistan as they have two of the fraud spinners in the tournament. Nawaz and Shadab are getting picked on the back of their little bit of batting ability, their bowling is rubbish.

Shadab averages 25 with the bat while Nawaz averages 18. In what universe does that justify anyone to be picked for their batting ability?
 
Shadab & Nawaz Player A and B are rellu katta spinners, both of them score a total of 45 in 50 balls and get 115/1 in their 20 overs, whereas Usama Player C gets 2/45 in his bowling and manages 15 in 20 balls.

Babar has muddled thinking he loads up rellu kattas to buffer batting not realizing the worth of taking wickets
 
I don’t understand Pakistan’s newfound obsession with spin bowling “allrounders” who aren’t really spinners. Imad Wasim is a downgrade from Nawaz even.
We need a specialist spinner like Usama or Abrar. Ideally both, irrespective of batting ability.
Spinners don’t necessarily have to have batting ability. They can play as specialist bowlers like fast bowlers do. To take a more extreme stance, pak can drop Shadab and Hassan Ali, and play both Abrar and Usama. 2 pacers can be enough on a pitch like Chennai.
Afghanistan for example plays both Mujeeb and Rashid Khan as specialt spinners, although Rashid can add a few runs with the bat, but he is not an “allrounder”.
The thinking is only because if we play Usama Mir as a replacement for Shadab or Nawaz, our batting will be weaker than it already is...

If we get out for sub 200 against India, our batting is clearly an issue which also needs to be addressed.
 
The thinking is only because if we play Usama Mir as a replacement for Shadab or Nawaz, our batting will be weaker than it already is...

If we get out for sub 200 against India, our batting is clearly an issue which also needs to be addressed.
Then why does a specialist spinner need to be compromised. Drop a fast bowler to bench. And/or fix the top 6 and Play Agha at 7. Agha and Ifti cannot do worse than these 2.
Our bowling is also nothing to write home about. SL scored 344 and India breezed to 191.
 
Then why does a specialist spinner need to be compromised. Drop a fast bowler to bench. And/or fix the top 6 and Play Agha at 7. Agha and Ifti cannot do worse than these 2.
Our bowling is also nothing to write home about. SL scored 344 and India breezed to 191.
If they need to play a specialist bowler, Usama is the answer. Let him play the next match and drop Nawaz I guess. 2 leg spinners in a team is something Pakistan will be reluctant to do but they need to win matches. There is nothing wrong wit 2 leg spinners playing in the same team.
 
Everyone knew most grounds in India will assist spin. England, Australia and Pakistan didn't develop their spin options
 
Then why does a specialist spinner need to be compromised. Drop a fast bowler to bench. And/or fix the top 6 and Play Agha at 7. Agha and Ifti cannot do worse than these 2.
Our bowling is also nothing to write home about. SL scored 344 and India breezed to 191.

That's true.
We have been under bowling Ifti this world cup.
Replacing Nawaz or Shadab with Agha isn't the worst suggestion.
Just not sure which specialist bowler to drop for Usama Mir
 
That's true.
We have been under bowling Ifti this world cup.
Replacing Nawaz or Shadab with Agha isn't the worst suggestion.
Just not sure which specialist bowler to drop for Usama Mir
Why aren’t we sure?
On current form, it’s clear as daylight the guy is Shadab. He is not good enough to bat at 7 nor is he good enough to bowl 10 overs. Agha is at least good enough to bat at no7, irrespective of the bowling.
 
Why aren’t we sure?
On current form, it’s clear as daylight the guy is Shadab. He is not good enough to bat at 7 nor is he good enough to bowl 10 overs. Agha is at least good enough to bat at no7, irrespective of the bowling.
That's true that shadab is bowling the worst here so is nawaz. But we know very well that shadab is not going anywhere. Nawaz will be the one who can be dropped and he should be.
 
Obviously, you need at least one proper spinner to apply pressure in the middle overs. Pakistan are playing 2 all-rounders, and unfortunately for them they're both out of form. So, they're neither contributing with the ball or the bat.

Need to draft Usama and drop Shadab ideally or if his vice-captain gimmick is a deal breaker then make Nawaz sit out. But bring in one proper spinner into the XI.

The next game against Australia is ideal for making changes. Rotate Fakhar in place of Imam and see how he goes. Bring Usama for Shadab. Give a pep talk to Chacha to make use of the cells in his brain.
 
Why aren’t we sure?
On current form, it’s clear as daylight the guy is Shadab. He is not good enough to bat at 7 nor is he good enough to bowl 10 overs. Agha is at least good enough to bat at no7, irrespective of the bowling.
Specialist bowler means Shaheen Shah, Hassan Ali or Rauf.
Replacing Shadab with Agha Salman makes sense.
But I'm unclear who to replace Usama Mir with because our batting is already weak.
That was my point.
 
Specialist bowler means Shaheen Shah, Hassan Ali or Rauf.
Replacing Shadab with Agha Salman makes sense.
But I'm unclear who to replace Usama Mir with because our batting is already weak.
That was my point.
Only in Pakistan right now specialist bowler means a pacer. Specialist bowler can also be a spinner like Kuldeep, Rashid, Mujeeb or Zampa. We can even drop one of the pacers and field Usama instead. Perfectly acceptable strategy in Asia to go with 30 overs of spin. Afghanistan plays with this template and works well vs SENA.
 
Only in Pakistan right now specialist bowler means a pacer. Specialist bowler can also be a spinner like Kuldeep, Rashid, Mujeeb or Zampa. We can even drop one of the pacers and field Usama instead. Perfectly acceptable strategy in Asia to go with 30 overs of spin. Afghanistan plays with this template and works well vs SENA.
3 Spinners strategy will work if all of them are world-class like Afghanistan had in their team. Pakistani spinners are below par. We cannot take such a huge risk when we have spinners who are just looking ordinary ATM.
 
Only in Pakistan right now specialist bowler means a pacer. Specialist bowler can also be a spinner like Kuldeep, Rashid, Mujeeb or Zampa. We can even drop one of the pacers and field Usama instead. Perfectly acceptable strategy in Asia to go with 30 overs of spin. Afghanistan plays with this template and works well vs SENA.
A specialist bowler means someone who's skill is in bowling and not batting.

But my point is that the three pacers in SSA, Hassan Ali and Rauf warrant a place in the Pakistan team.
Who would you replace Usama Mir with ? If we replace him with either Nawaz or Shadab, our batting then becomes even more weak.

In Pakistan right now, the best specialist bowlers happen to be pace bowlers, as has been the case for many years because we haven't unearthed any great spinning talent as of late.

But maybe it makes sense to replace both Nawaz and Shadab with Agha and Usama.
 
A specialist bowler means someone who's skill is in bowling and not batting.

But my point is that the three pacers in SSA, Hassan Ali and Rauf warrant a place in the Pakistan team.
Who would you replace Usama Mir with ? If we replace him with either Nawaz or Shadab, our batting then becomes even more weak.

In Pakistan right now, the best specialist bowlers happen to be pace bowlers, as has been the case for many years because we haven't unearthed any great spinning talent as of late.

But maybe it makes sense to replace both Nawaz and Shadab with Agha and Usama.
Pakistan should back the best 3 specialist bowlers irrespective of the type.
If Usama/Abrar can be more effective than Hassan Ali or Rauf, then why not go with Usama/Abrar.

On unearthing a spinner. How many ODI games have specialist spinners like Abrar and Usama played to be unearthed.
We have pigeonholed spinners to be “allrounders” and “need to have some batting”, and therefore haven’t tried them.
 
India, Afghanistan have already shown you need quality spinners to stop run flow in middle overs and also need to take wickets.

Pakistan picking part time pie throwers like shadab and nawaz was always asking for trouble
 
3 Spinners strategy will work if all of them are world-class like Afghanistan had in their team. Pakistani spinners are below par. We cannot take such a huge risk when we have spinners who are just looking ordinary ATM.
I meant drop both Shadab and Nawaz. Okay both Usama, Abrar and 10 overs shared by Ifti and Agha. Completely different combination where Pak attacks with their spinners and 2 of Rauf/Shaheen/Ali hold the line with control and focus on containment.
So something like
Ifti at no 6
Agha at no 7
Usama
Shaheen
Hassan/Rauf
Abrar
 
Since we are not seeing pitches that help seam and swing bowling so spinners would definitely be very important in this World Cup. We have already seen a spinner took a fifer in this World Cup when Mitchell Santner picked up 5 wickets against Netherlands.
 
India, Afghanistan have already shown you need quality spinners to stop run flow in middle overs and also need to take wickets.

Pakistan picking part time pie throwers like shadab and nawaz was always asking for trouble
India, Afghanistan have already shown you need quality spinners to stop run flow in middle overs and also need to take wickets.

Pakistan picking part time pie throwers like shadab and nawaz was always asking for trouble
This must be the mantra for Indian pitches. The last 3 batsmen in Indian team are pure bowlers and with Zero batting skills (Kuldeep, Siraj and Bumrah - though Bumrah recently doing little better with the bat). Shardul is neither a bowler nor a batsman. I don't know why he is being picked for every match. We have option like Ashwin or Shami, who are definitely better bowlers. Shardul plays with the bat once in a blue moon and we cannot wait for such a wonderful day. India is surviving with 5 specialist batsmen, 2 all rounders and with four bowlers. Since our top order batsmen are in form, we are getting through. We should see how it goes further as India encounters strong teams like ENG, NZ, SA, ENG etc in coming days.

With regards to spinners, Afghanistan is having good spinners as you mentioned, Rashid from England, the new lad Welluge from Sri Lanka are also good spinners. Somehow Sri Lanka produces many mystery spinners. These spinners can have impact on any kind of surface. It is surprising that of late Pakistan is not producing specialist spinners like Qadir, Mustaq, Saqlain, Ajmal etc. Probably, they are focusing on fast bowlers.
 
Rizwan said something along the lines ‘they are backing Nawaz and Shadab’ does that mean there will be no changes to tomorrows game? Has Babar got the guts to drop either one of them?

Clearly spinners are having a huge role in this World Cup so the question is should Shadab or Nawaz be dropped?
 
I meant drop both Shadab and Nawaz. Okay both Usama, Abrar and 10 overs shared by Ifti and Agha. Completely different combination where Pak attacks with their spinners and 2 of Rauf/Shaheen/Ali hold the line with control and focus on containment.
So something like
Ifti at no 6
Agha at no 7
Usama
Shaheen
Hassan/Rauf
Abrar
Abrar is in reserves and can’t play
 
This must be the mantra for Indian pitches. The last 3 batsmen in Indian team are pure bowlers and with Zero batting skills (Kuldeep, Siraj and Bumrah - though Bumrah recently doing little better with the bat). Shardul is neither a bowler nor a batsman. I don't know why he is being picked for every match. We have option like Ashwin or Shami, who are definitely better bowlers. Shardul plays with the bat once in a blue moon and we cannot wait for such a wonderful day. India is surviving with 5 specialist batsmen, 2 all rounders and with four bowlers. Since our top order batsmen are in form, we are getting through. We should see how it goes further as India encounters strong teams like ENG, NZ, SA, ENG etc in coming days.

With regards to spinners, Afghanistan is having good spinners as you mentioned, Rashid from England, the new lad Welluge from Sri Lanka are also good spinners. Somehow Sri Lanka produces many mystery spinners. These spinners can have impact on any kind of surface. It is surprising that of late Pakistan is not producing specialist spinners like Qadir, Mustaq, Saqlain, Ajmal etc. Probably, they are focusing on fast bowlers.
lol Kuldeep can handle himself. he has got a 100 and six fiftees in First class. He is hardly needed to bat and doesn't have the exposure. Compared to Mohammed Wasim Jr, who is called an allrounder with one fifty in whole career, Kuldeep is much better
 
Seems like spinners are making more of an impact than the quicks as was the case with Zampa and Afghanistan.
Depending on venue, the ball doesn't seem to be seaming or swinging too much, but seeing lots of turn
 
Spin matters and so ofc Pakistan have gone the last 10 years without grooming anyone half decent.

Put all their eggs in the basket that is Shadab / Nawaz and look at where we are now…
 
Zampa showed Pakistan that what a specialist spinner seems like when you get a little support from the wicket. Bowled with enough pace and variation and took the game away from Pakistan. To be honest, Pakistan does not have any specialist spinner in the team to even match Zampa who was poor in his first game but he came back strongly.
 
I can confidently say that Pakistan spin attack is the worst of the 10 teams playing this competition.

SL has Theekshana

Ned has Aryan and Roelof who can land the ball where they want and threaten wkts if pitch supports.
 
Pakistan's main spinners bowling averages so far at this World Cup:

Shadab Khan 90
Usama Mir 137
Mohammad Nawaz 91.50
 
Says it all.

This is the WORST spin attack I’ve ever seen from Pakistan. Absolute shambles.
Yeah it’s horrible, I thought maybe they’d get it together on a pitch like this, but they don’t have the skill to even take advantage of it.

When this is how your spinners play in India, what do you expect to happen in the tournament?
 
Yeah it’s horrible, I thought maybe they’d get it together on a pitch like this, but they don’t have the skill to even take advantage of it.

When this is how your spinners play in India, what do you expect to happen in the tournament?
Do you think Abrar Ahmed would have made a difference?
 
Do you think Abrar Ahmed would have made a difference?
I’m not sure to be honest. He actually spins the ball but he’s never played an ODI and only has played 12 List A games - although he did pretty good in them. The inexperience would hurt him but he would definitely bowl better than Shadab.

I wish we had some good young off spinner coming up, leg spinners are great but they can be expensive.
 
There's been a lot of talk about the failures of Pakistani spinners at the World Cup. And it's true. They have failed spectacularly .

But theres a reason why they are failing over and over again.

Only bowlers who have consistently bowled tight lines are doing well in this World Cup .

You have to finish within a sixth stump line to have any chance of bowling with control.

Look at Adam Zampa's lines against Pakistan
Screenshot_2023-10-24-09-49-56-75_40deb401b9ffe8e1df2f1cc5ba480b12.jpg

He gave barely any width outside off to cut and kept his speeds(90+ kph) up in order to keep the batsmen honest .

Zampa bowls with a lot of overspin and attacks the stumps throughout .

Attacking the stumps is easier for offspinners , left arm spinners who have good arm balls and left arm wrist spinners whose stock balls turn into the stumps.

It's harder for leg spinners because their turn the ball away from the stumps and you need Zampa's or Rashid Khans skills levels to bowl googlies, flippers and top spinners at high pace and with great accuracy.

Shadab and Usama Mir are looking to flight the ball with revs and coming over-the-top a lot more. What that means is they are prone to over pitching and drag downs and are easier to hit.

This is because the batsmen are able to get under their deliveries to hit over the top of play them off the backfoot when they drag it down. Also since they are looking to spin it away from the stumps, they are getting cut as well.


You can find success with that method but it's very difficult and you'll have to rely a lot more mistimed hits going to fielders.


Adil Rashid doesn't attack the stumps as often.

But what he does when looking to spin it away is to bowl very slowly at around 70 kph , so that batsmen have to generate power and so that ball grips and turns more.

His dismissal of RVD is a perfect example of slowing it down to get big turn and entice the false shot.

Usama Mir in particular can benefit from dropping his pace a lot and looking to rev it as much as possible and inducing false shots .

Pakistani spinners are not doing either consistently and that's why they are neither able to get "pressure" wickets like Zampa or able to get wickets like a classical leggie(Adil) does.
 
Great analysis.

Yeah the truth is that the whole approach of the spin department has been pretty terrible. Of course the spinners should be entirely blamed for their lack of discipline in bowling, but I put some of the blame too on any of our spin coaching staff not putting together a good plan and how to bowl to these pitches.

Similar blame goes to the fast bowling staff too, our fast bowlers just are not bowling the proper lengths and areas to benefit on these pitches. Of course part of that is just due to inexperience on these pitches, but our coaching staff should have done a better job of planning as well. First things first is to fire Mickey Arthur and probably Morne Morkel as well. Shaun Tait's style or instruction seemed to work way better.
 
Also, I feel that having a really great leg spinner is a luxury. They're expensive but they take wickets. How come Pakistan just does not produce any solid off spinners anymore? Early 2010's, we had absolutely terrible fast bowling but our spinners used to tie a net around the opposition and slowly suffocate them in the middle overs. I even remember Hafeez opening the bowling on occasion.
 
Pakistan team don't have any spin bowling coach. Australia has daniel Vettori on the bench, afghanistan has Ajay Jadeja we have Morne Morkel and a bunch of other low rank coaches and a part-time coach in Mickey. If you look at it Saqlain Mushtaq and his coaching staff did a way better job than these foreign cartoons
 
Pakistan team don't have any spin bowling coach. Australia has daniel Vettori on the bench, afghanistan has Ajay Jadeja we have Morne Morkel and a bunch of other low rank coaches and a part-time coach in Mickey. If you look at it Saqlain Mushtaq and his coaching staff did a way better job than these foreign cartoons
I don't think Ajay Jadeja has make any difference in the performance of Afghanistan spinners. I agree that we should have Mushtaq Ahmed or Saqlain Mushtaq with the team.
 
Spinners are vital cog in this WC, Yadav Jadeja, Maharaj Shamsi, Santner, Zampa, AfG spinners teams who are successful have spinners contribution unlike Pakistan's who average 75+ per wicket
 
Also, I feel that having a really great leg spinner is a luxury. They're expensive but they take wickets. How come Pakistan just does not produce any solid off spinners anymore? Early 2010's, we had absolutely terrible fast bowling but our spinners used to tie a net around the opposition and slowly suffocate them in the middle overs. I even remember Hafeez opening the bowling on occasion.
Pakistan used to produce world class fast bowlers like Sarfraz, Imran, Wasim, Waqar, Shoaib Akthar, Aaquib Javed, Mohd. Amir, Mohd. Asif, Umar Gul ... few of them. Do you really think that the present bunch of Pakistan fast bowlers are of same class? Frankly, I don't think so. Even if the other fast bowler down with injury, Naseem can not meet the standard of those bowlers. There were some good allrounders earlier in the team like Azhar Mohammood, Razaq and you are missing such all rounders. Musthaq, Saqlain, Azmal cannot be compared with Shadab, Nawaaz, Usman. With such depleted bowling unit, it is very difficult to compete with SENAI. Their bench strength SENAI itself is very strong and can even upset the full strength Pakistan team. You cannot blame BABAR for the failures in WC2023.
 
Spinners are already making their mark in ICC World Cup 2023. Creating problems for guest teams in India. No wonder India is known for spin-friendly tracks.

1698568221791.png
 
Most wickets from spinners in the group stage of the World Cup:

Afghanistan 32
India 32
Australia 27
New Zealand 27
Bangladesh 25
England 24
Netherlands 22
South Africa 21
Pakistan 12
Sri Lanka 8
 
Spinners played vital roles (as expected).

Zampa, Santner, Mujeeb, Rashid, Nabi, Jadeja, Kuldeep, Noor etc. They all had great times.
 
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