How to beat this team India?

[B_Positive]

1. You cant have flat pitches for this team as there batsmen are too good with GOAT Kohli there in side it gets even better.
2. On any surface there spinners pick up wickets. There pacers are brilliant with Bumrah in death, Bhuvi for swing and Shami for bouncing batsmen out.
3. They have demolished SA in their home, winning easily in NZ, beat Aus in Aus. In england they lost but again it was a close series and England are #1 in ODI rankings so beating them in their den woudlnt be easy.

Only flaw which some can see is in their middle order but frankly they are not performing too bad either.
They reach at least semis of every ICC tournament. So what can a team plan to beat this Indian team?

One thing which Pak did in CT final was to take quick wickets of their top 3. But is this the only plan we got? Because 9/10 times it wont happen.

 

[Mamoon]

In a series, only England have the players to take them down. Other teams have to get lucky and catch them on their off-days.

 

[Varun]

Get us to 40/3.

We're toast.

 

[SamNJ]

Play your first XI not the B or C side.

 

[jagatk]

Get us to 40/3.

We're toast.

A good thing about facing Pakistan in world cup next time is that game will always be in the back of the mind, so there won't be complacency and that ain't happening in a world cup where pitches will be flat.

 

[arehaan]

Winning is all about confidence and this team has plenty of that after the Australian tour. The brand of cricket they are playing it is very difficult to catch them unless they have an occasional off day which is also very rare given their strength.

 

[Canford Cliffs]

Play your first XI not the B or C side.

Pakistan played their best XI in Asia cup but still lost twice

 

[AMSS]

Get us to 40/3.

We're toast.

Make that 150 for 3. Even then we'd lose more often than not. It's incredible how reliant this team is on having at least one from the top 3 staying till 40th over.

The spinners are a wicket taking force but can be taken for runs. Same for Shami. Bhuvi won't take wickets and leak runs.

Bumrah is exceptional in every which way.

 

[B_Positive]

Play your first XI not the B or C side.

I dont believe in this concept of B or C side. Every side play their best XI unless of course you are experimenting. And one or two players left out from a side doesnt mean its a C side. India didnt play Kohli in Asia cup, they still won. They didnt play Bumrah here and still winning.

 

[jagatk]

Make that 150 for 3. Even then we'd lose more often than not. It's incredible how reliant this team is on having at least one from the top 3 staying till 40th over.

The spinners are a wicket taking force but can be taken for runs. Same for Shami. Bhuvi won't take wickets and leak runs.

Bumrah is exceptional in every which way.

Won't happen, the big post CT change is we have a bowling lineup that will out bowl other teams 8-9/10 times. Even with our middle order 20 runs short won't hurt much given our bowling.

 

[BlackShadow]

Teams need to figure out a way to score 300+ against Bumrah, Shami, Kuldeep and Chahal. So far, they have been running through the opponents.

 

[B_Positive]

What if teams dont give much wickets to Kuldeep and Chahal maybe then there is a chance. Even if they make just 60 off their 20 overs, i would feel job done.

 

[BlackShadow]

What if teams dont give much wickets to Kuldeep and Chahal maybe then there is a chance. Even if they make just 60 off their 20 overs, i would feel job done.

Then you are looking at a score India will chase 9/10 times. Milking Kuldeep and Chahal for 5rpo is the way to go.

 

[rhony]

Attack Chahal. If it comes off, he usually chokes a bit. Milk Kuldeep and score 300+. Get Top 3 out under 100. Don't lose too many wickets to Indian pacers at the start

 

[TheSensible]

You basically have to maintain amazing concentrations to be able to score well x 2-3 players. These bowlers have been running through all kinds of batting line-ups

 

[xricket]

It's easy. A fierce fast bowler. That's all you need. It has to be Shoaib Akhtar level fast.

And that's why I worry about Pak future. Because we dont have anyone coming

 

[jagatk]

What if teams dont give much wickets to Kuldeep and Chahal maybe then there is a chance. Even if they make just 60 off their 20 overs, i would feel job done.

That's 20 overs and risk free cricket will mean 4-4.5 an over that will kill you on a pitch where there isn't much help for bowlers, because if there is help they will pick wickets regardless.

 

[rhony]

It's easy. A fierce fast bowler. That's all you need. It has to be Shoaib Akhtar level fast.

They smoked Ferguson's 148 kph today. Pace doesn't matter. Movement does to all of the Indian batsmen as is the case with most batsmen

 

[jagatk]

It's easy. A fierce fast bowler. That's all you need. It has to be Shoaib Akhtar level fast.

And that's why I worry about Pak future. Because we dont have anyone coming

Unless he moves the ball he is cannon fodder for likes of rohit.

 

[Hyperion66]

It's easy. A fierce fast bowler. That's all you need. It has to be Shoaib Akhtar level fast.

And that's why I worry about Pak future. Because we dont have anyone coming

Bolna tha bol diya bhai tu ne, shabash

 

[xricket]

They smoked Ferguson's 148 kph today. Pace doesn't matter. Movement does to all of the Indian batsmen as is the case with most batsmen

How often Ferguson bowled 148kph? 150kph should be the bare minimum. And how is his skill level? How about good old short bowling with short leg, backed up with yorkers?

 

[IndianMafia]

India is winning without bumrah and very less contribution from Kohli. 5th bowler is still a problem.

 

[Hyperion66]

India without Bumrah thrashing teams for fun at their own den, imagine a carnage our full attack will bring with him back in the side.

 

[barah_admi]

1. You cant have flat pitches for this team as there batsmen are too good with GOAT Kohli there in side it gets even better.
2. On any surface there spinners pick up wickets. There pacers are brilliant with Bumrah in death, Bhuvi for swing and Shami for bouncing batsmen out.
3. They have demolished SA in their home, winning easily in NZ, beat Aus in Aus. In england they lost but again it was a close series and England are #1 in ODI rankings so beating them in their den woudlnt be easy.

Only flaw which some can see is in their middle order but frankly they are not performing too bad either.
They reach at least semis of every ICC tournament. So what can a team plan to beat this Indian team?

One thing which Pak did in CT final was to take quick wickets of their top 3. But is this the only plan we got? Because 9/10 times it wont happen.

England decisively shelacked India in two of the three matches. One was a win by nearly a hundred runs and the other by about 8 wickets if memory serves me right.

Those too on flat pitches.

India are a very good odi side but the only team that has looked nigh on unstoppable in recent times is England.
That's a fact baba jee.

 

[Mahee]

no Bumrah and shami in the series England won

 

[WengerOut]

no Bumrah and shami in the series England won

Indian players missing does not count. Also the fact that India beat England at home also does not count.

 

[rhony]

How often Ferguson bowled 148kph? 150kph should be the bare minimum. And how is his skill level? How about good old short bowling with short leg, backed up with yorkers?

Short leg? Have you seen Rohit and Kohli pulling the balls? As I said pace doesn't matter. Swing and Seam will surely get Rohit and Dhawan initially. Ferguson bowled in the 148 to 150 range and he was smashed around. Peak shoaib huffed and puffed for a couple at 150 and the rest at high 140s just like Fergie.

 

[Mahee]

Indian players missing does not count.

oh ok then England is the best odi side

 

[xricket]

Unless he moves the ball he is cannon fodder for likes of rohit.

That is not true. Serious pace, with precision, would run through any batsman. I was betting on Stark to do it for Australia, but he couldnt because due to the lack of precision. He was also not at his best, bowling below 150 most of the times. Shoaib didnt use to have swing from what I recall. It was his attitude and aggression, coupled with searing pace.

 

[Babbar]

England decisively shelacked India in two of the three matches. One was a win by nearly a hundred runs and the other by about 8 wickets if memory serves me right.

Those too on flat pitches.

India are a very good odi side but the only team that has looked nigh on unstoppable in recent times is England.
That's a fact baba jee.

You forgot the third ODI that India won with 8 wickets in 50 overs. So a 2-1 score in own grounds for England is not that great! But winning almost any ODI series against India anywhere is a miracle these days! so yeah! England did great!

 

[xricket]

Short leg? Have you seen Rohit and Kohli pulling the balls? As I said pace doesn't matter. Swing and Seam will surely get Rohit and Dhawan initially. Ferguson bowled in the 148 to 150 range and he was smashed around. Peak shoaib huffed and puffed for a couple at 150 and the rest at high 140s just like Fergie.

Peak shoaib was above 150, at least 4 out of 6 deliveries. Ferguson doesn't have what it takes. Also, there is a trick to bowling short ball, you don't bowl at chest high. You bowl it above shoulders, at this high pace, and the batsman wont be able to control it.

 

[dragon751]

That is not true. Serious pace, with precision, would run through any batsman. I was betting on Stark to do it for Australia, but he couldnt because due to the lack of precision. He was also not at his best, bowling below 150 most of the times. Shoaib didnt use to have swing from what I recall. It was his attitude and aggression, coupled with searing pace.

in the current era ... pure pace without swing/seam is played very easily by most top teams not just india ....the 2003 wc game ind v pak being a case in point with pak having akther, wasim and waqar bowling thunderbolts and being smashed out of the park. its the lower ranked teams that have trouble against pure pace without swing/seam

 

[xricket]

And you don't give room, you direct this short ball at the batsman, at his body. That would certainly introduce fear

 

[shah_1]

You need to be good players of spin. I'm afraid most teams don't have the required batsmen. It's the 20 overs of Kulcha that is troubling most teams. They are ripping apart the middle order.

Even England aren't that good against spin.but they look the most likely team to beat India

 

[yuvi]

If there is rain around, ball can get wet, the spinners will struggle. Happened against SA who were otherwise clueless against our spinners. Can happen in England also with rain.

 

[dragon751]

And you don't give room, you direct this short ball at the batsman, at his body. That would certainly introduce fear

one bouncer per over rule in odis limits the argument of this line of attack

 

[xricket]

in the current era ... pure pace without swing/seam is played very easily by most top teams not just india ....the 2003 wc game ind v pak being a case in point with pak having akther, wasim and waqar bowling thunderbolts and being smashed out of the park. its the lower ranked teams that have trouble against pure pace without swing/seam

What you said is true, for the bowlers bowling 140-145, but I don't think that would be the case when bowling with 150+. You certainly need to have some skills, like some kind of precision and not give width or room to the batsman.

Look at the dismissal of Tendulkar in that world cup. Short ball, directed at his body, he couldn't control. You need pace and accuracy. Swing would just be a bonus.

 

[xricket]

one bouncer per over rule in odis limits the argument of this line of attack

Yes, and that if is well directed, is a factor playing in batsman mind, that it could come at any moment. So, that will disturb his stance, and he will be more in his crease. And then you could just bowl a full length delivery or a yorker, to good result

 

[yuvi]

And you don't give room, you direct this short ball at the batsman, at his body. That would certainly introduce fear

With helmet and quality protective gear quality batsmen don't have much fear.

 

[rhony]

What you said is true, for the bowlers bowling 140-145, but I don't think that would be the case when bowling with 150+. You certainly need to have some skills, like some kind of precision and not give width or room to the batsman.

Look at the dismissal of Tendulkar in that world cup. Short ball, directed at his body, he couldn't control. You need pace and accuracy. Swing would just be a bonus.

Yes but before he got out he scored runs too. Bowling with accuracy at that pace is lethal but no one can do it consistently. And on these pitches Rohit and Kohli will probably pull the ball better than Tendulkar did. Swing and Seam and bowling at 4th stump. That's the easiest way

 

[Sir Alex]

So sustained 150kmp with precision, swing, seam movement, bounce is what can derail India.

Throw in some drift and flight therein as well. Ah some turn as well

 

[xricket]

So sustained 150kmp with precision, swing, seam movement, bounce is what can derail India.

Throw in some drift and flight therein as well. Ah some turn as well

lol, don't forget the googly at this pace

 

[Babbar]

Peak shoaib was above 150, at least 4 out of 6 deliveries. Ferguson doesn't have what it takes. Also, there is a trick to bowling short ball, you don't bowl at chest high. You bowl it above shoulders, at this high pace, and the batsman wont be able to control it.

This is a Pakistani myth. Shoaib was very good in his prime and also fast! But he was never 150+ in 4/6 deliveries. This is not corraborated anywhere except in fan’s mind. For 2-3 peak years, Shoaib was 145-147 with occasional ball darting 150-155. For the remaining tenure he was a 142-145 bowler, going below 140 on average in the last 2-3 years.

 

[rhony]

Peak shoaib was above 150, at least 4 out of 6 deliveries. Ferguson doesn't have what it takes. Also, there is a trick to bowling short ball, you don't bowl at chest high. You bowl it above shoulders, at this high pace, and the batsman wont be able to control it.

You are probably nostalgic about shoaib but he wasn't as unplayable as you claim. He had his moments though.

 

[dragon751]

What you said is true, for the bowlers bowling 140-145, but I don't think that would be the case when bowling with 150+. You certainly need to have some skills, like some kind of precision and not give width or room to the batsman.

Look at the dismissal of Tendulkar in that world cup. Short ball, directed at his body, he couldn't control. You need pace and accuracy. Swing would just be a bonus.

yes but you are asking for a perfect fast bowler( pace 150+ combined with precision every ball)
.... not many of those have been produced in world cricket since cricket started more than a century ago ... anyway as for the subject of this thread ...... india are prone to the odd off day as is every team .....so they will lose now and then

 

[xricket]

Yes but before he got out he scored runs too. Bowling with accuracy at that pace is lethal but no one can do it consistently. And on these pitches Rohit and Kohli will probably pull the ball better than Tendulkar did. Swing and Seam and bowling at 4th stump. That's the easiest way

Shoaib should have used it earlier. That six of the cut shot, in the covers, did provide width. He could have just directed more at his body. Bouncer and precision is what got Johnson the fear and put him above others, when he peaked before retirement. If the little master couldn't play, I will highly doubt if Kohli would.

Oh, and don't forget, the good old fashioned left arm fast bowlers bowling at 140s, who can swing it back in. Not talking about Amir, who wouldnt bowl full to give it a chance to swing, or bowl too leg sidish and too wide away from stumps, to not make it swing at all these days.

 

[jnaveen1980]

How often Ferguson bowled 148kph? 150kph should be the bare minimum. And how is his skill level? How about good old short bowling with short leg, backed up with yorkers?

Ferguson's average speed was 145k that includes several slower ones at 120k. Top speed 151kph.

 

[rhony]

Also one thing you must notice is Boult or Rabada or Starc are not unfamiliar to Indian batsmen. They play them every year in IPL on similar flat pitches.

 

[xricket]

yes but you are asking for a perfect fast bowler( pace 150+ combined with precision every ball)
.... not many of those have been produced in world cricket since cricket started more than a century ago ... anyway as for the subject of this thread ...... india are prone to the odd off day as is every team .....so they will lose now and then

Not every ball, only more than half the balls he deliver, provided the rest dont give width so that batsman can free his arms.

 

[rhony]

This year they will practice more against Ferguson too. I heard he's going to play for KKR. Even Indian domestic batsmen handle this pace in IPL.

 

[dragon751]

Yes but before he got out he scored runs too. Bowling with accuracy at that pace is lethal but no one can do it consistently. And on these pitches Rohit and Kohli will probably pull the ball better than Tendulkar did. Swing and Seam and bowling at 4th stump. That's the easiest way

true mcgrath was waay more effective in odis that akthar ever was on a consistent basis , akthar had the odd brilliant day when conditions were conducive

 

[xricket]

Ferguson's average speed was 145k that includes several slower ones at 120k. Top speed 151kph.

Take that average speed to 150, and then we are talking

 

[WengerOut]

Shoaib should have used it earlier. That six of the cut shot, in the covers, did provide width. He could have just directed more at his body. Bouncer and precision is what got Johnson the fear and put him above others, when he peaked before retirement. If the little master couldn't play, I will highly doubt if Kohli would.

Oh, and don't forget, the good old fashioned left arm fast bowlers bowling at 140s, who can swing it back in. Not talking about Amir, who wouldnt bowl full to give it a chance to swing, or bowl too leg sidish and too wide away from stumps, to not make it swing at all these days.

So if a bowler bowls well, there is no way a batsman can play. In short, good batsmen is is a byproduct of inconsistent bowling.

 

[xricket]

So if a bowler bowls well, there is no way a batsman can play. In short, good batsmen is is a byproduct of inconsistent bowling.

Good batsman see off good bowls, give respect to good bowlers and wait for their moment, or target bowlers to score off.

 

[dragon751]

Shoaib should have used it earlier. That six of the cut shot, in the covers, did provide width. He could have just directed more at his body. Bouncer and precision is what got Johnson the fear and put him above others, when he peaked before retirement. If the little master couldn't play, I will highly doubt if Kohli would.

Oh, and don't forget, the good old fashioned left arm fast bowlers bowling at 140s, who can swing it back in. Not talking about Amir, who wouldnt bowl full to give it a chance to swing, or bowl too leg sidish and too wide away from stumps, to not make it swing at all these days.

again .... you are looking for unicorns .. if the great wasim got taken for runs( in 2003) who else can do betthher than him in terms of control

 

[rhony]

Take that average speed to 150, and then we are talking

Those bowlers are non existent after they saw Shaun Tait being dispatched to all corners in IPL. Like I said, pace doesn't matter much unless there's movement

 

[xricket]

true mcgrath was waay more effective in odis that akthar ever was on a consistent basis , akthar had the odd brilliant day when conditions were conducive

Akhtar didn't need conditions. How did he bowled the wall of india and little master on two consecutive balls? Hint: Searing pace, with bit accurracy

 

[xricket]

Those bowlers are non existent after they saw Shaun Tait being dispatched to all corners in IPL. Like I said, pace doesn't matter much unless there's movement

You keep on bringing movement, at this pace only accuracy is required for the lethal damage. Tait is not accurate at all.

 

[xricket]

again .... you are looking for unicorns .. if the great wasim got taken for runs( in 2003) who else can do betthher than him in terms of control

Pace coupled with accuracy. Wasim in 2003, didn't bowl close to 140.

 

[Babbar]

There’s no bowler ever from any country who had an average speed of 150. All examples given are just unproven myths. But if we have to talk of future plan to beat this india team consistently, why not go for average speed of 160. And get 5 of them in your team.

 

[WengerOut]

Good batsman see off good bowls, give respect to good bowlers and wait for their moment, or target bowlers to score off.

So, Indian batsmen are not that good that they can't see off Shoaib?

 

[dragon751]

Take that average speed to 150, and then we are talking

there is an unhealthy obsession with just pace imho, and in that case why not an avg 160k bowler , why stop at 150k avg

 

[xricket]

There’s no bowler ever from any country who had an average speed of 150. All examples given are just unproven myths. But if we have to talk of future plan to beat this india team consistently, why not go for average speed of 160. And get 5 of them in your team.

Lol, how about 170? Man, 150 average is more than achievable. Akhtar used to bowl back in the days. Not entire his career though.

 

[Nikhil_cric]

Get rid of that top order and you'll see a much more vulnerable India. Even today you saw the real auqat of that hack Rayudu. That said, I think this Indian side will be extremely hard to beat in a bilateral series in Asia. Even England failed to do that. However, CWC is in England and in those conditions, teams should be looking at methods to stop this English white-ball juggernaut - Roy,Bairstow,Root,Morgan,Hales,the incredible Jos Buttler, Stokes, Moeen. I'm not sure how India is more of a threat than that lineup.

 

[dragon751]

Pace coupled with accuracy. Wasim in 2003, didn't bowl close to 140.

no such bowler around ..... unlikely to be one around anywhere in the near future too

 

[xricket]

So, Indian batsmen are not that good that they can't see off Shoaib?

Re-read what i said

 

[xricket]

no such bowler around ..... unlikely to be one around anywhere in the near future too

Stark did that, at least the part where he swung it at 150s in the last world cup

 

[dragon751]

Get rid of that top order and you'll see a much more vulnerable India. Even today you saw the real auqat of that hack Rayudu. That said, I think this Indian side will be extremely hard to beat in a bilateral series in Asia. Even England failed to do that. However, CWC is in England and in those conditions, teams should be looking at methods to stop this English white-ball juggernaut - Roy,Bairstow,Root,Morgan,Hales,the incredible Jos Buttler, Stokes, Moeen. I'm not sure how India is more of a threat than that lineup.

its not but their bowling is pop gun ..... and hence ind and eng equal favorites

 

[xricket]

https://www.icc-cricket.com/video/199606

 

[Sam99]

Play safe against bumrah & kuldeep. Bhuvi, Pandya & Chahal are easy to play if you attack them. Stop run flow against dhawan and he will get out or bring off spinner. Rohit even though is good puller can get out to short ball and kohli too can be put under pressure. It's not easy but it's possible.

 

[dragon751]

Stark did that, at least the part where he swung it at 150s in the last world cup

and Oz won that wc ,,, whats Oz position in odis now ?starc is no longer the force he was , gets taken to the cleaners more often than not , i repeat "no such bowler around atm "

 

[rhony]

https://www.icc-cricket.com/video/199606

That's extreme case. Even Starc hasn't bowled like that again. I'm saying you don't need that much.

 

[Nikhil_cric]

its not but their bowling is pop gun ..... and hence ind and eng equal favorites

Their bowling attack is not a popgun attack. Rashid and Moeen are good ODI bowlers and the rest can do a job. Its not world class but they are more than decent. If they dish out flat, fast tracks, bowling attacks won't matter anyway - the matches will become batting shootouts and no team can win a batting shootout against that lineup. Only pitches are used ones and grip a bit or offer some seam movement do NZ,India, PAK,OZ,RSA have half a chance against them.

 

[ask_analyse_act]

Pakistan played their best XI in Asia cup but still lost twice

No they didnt.. As long as Hafeez, Malik, Imad and Faheem plays it is not the best 11..

These are the no. of bits an pieces playing in 1 team when you need only one of those in the entire 11...

They played with three proper batsman in Imam, Fakhar and Babar.. In all Fakhar cannot play proper cricket shots which is why now struggling to put things together in SA conditions.. Tbh only Imam and Babar are the two young and proper bats in the entire 11, if you get these two out cheaply and fakhar doesnt have a smacking day this team cant go beyond 150 for 9/10 times...

 

[xricket]

That's extreme case. Even Starc hasn't bowled like that again. I'm saying you don't need that much.

That's what it will take.

 

[xricket]

and Oz won that wc ,,, whats Oz position in odis now ?starc is no longer the force he was , gets taken to the cleaners more often than not , i repeat "no such bowler around atm "

That's how you tame this indian team

 

[rhony]

Get rid of that top order and you'll see a much more vulnerable India. Even today you saw the real auqat of that hack Rayudu. That said, I think this Indian side will be extremely hard to beat in a bilateral series in Asia. Even England failed to do that. However, CWC is in England and in those conditions, teams should be looking at methods to stop this English white-ball juggernaut - Roy,Bairstow,Root,Morgan,Hales,the incredible Jos Buttler, Stokes, Moeen. I'm not sure how India is more of a threat than that lineup.

It's not. England is the favorite and rightly so. There's no one that can match their fire power. However, they are pitch dependent unlike India. If it's a flat wicket, Eng are going to be unbeatable. If there is something on the pitch, India can better exploit it and counter it

 

[dragon751]

Their bowling attack is not a popgun attack. Rashid and Moeen are good ODI bowlers and the rest can do a job. Its not world class but they are more than decent. If they dish out flat, fast tracks, bowling attacks won't matter anyway - the matches will become batting shootouts and no team can win a batting shootout against that lineup. Only pitches are used ones and grip a bit or offer some seam movement do NZ,India, PAK,OZ,RSA have half a chance against them.

lets see , just a few more months to find out

 

[dragon751]

That's how you tame this indian team

yes ... get the perfect bowler in peak form and control of his skill .... you can tame any team with that bowler

 

[shah_1]

Their bowling attack is not a popgun attack. Rashid and Moeen are good ODI bowlers and the rest can do a job. Its not world class but they are more than decent. If they dish out flat, fast tracks, bowling attacks won't matter anyway - the matches will become batting shootouts and no team can win a batting shootout against that lineup. Only pitches are used ones and grip a bit or offer some seam movement do NZ,India, PAK,OZ,RSA have half a chance against them.

If Jofra Archer is added(he will be avaliable after march). Woakes, Archer, Plunkett, Stoakes, Moeen and Adil isn't exactly popgun attack. Which team has 6 bowlers like that?