How will the India-Pakistan relations shape-up in 2023?

MenInG

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An interesting view on what could be ahead - let's hear your views as well.

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One of the core principles of Pakistan’s foreign policy is to pursue peaceful relations with its neighbors. Factually, however, Pakistan had conflictual ties with its eastern as well as western neighbors, namely, India and Afghanistan in 1947. Afghanistan opposed Pakistan’s entry into the United Nations, while questioning the territorial composition of Pakistan with reference to the Durand Line ─ which Pakistan accepts as the international border between the two countries.

With India, Pakistan fought its first war over Jammu and Kashmir in 1947-48. Though the then political leadership of India and Pakistan relatively normalized relations in the post-war period, partition-oriented mistrust affected political narratives and bureaucratic structures in both the countries, thus, leading to more wars in 1965, 1971 and then again in 1999. In addition, there have been scores of cases of cross-border firing and skirmishes at the Line of Control (LoC) and the Working Boundary.

With the exception of the 1971 war that was essentially fought in East Pakistan, now Bangladesh, all other wars and skirmishes were Kashmir-centered. In other words, Pakistan and India have kept the armed conflict confined to Jammu and Kashmir, which has factored into their foreign, and defense policy discourses. Little wonder that India does not want to lose Jammu and Kashmir for it would set a precedent for secession for other states and regions in India, while Pakistan feels an ontological insecurity if Jammu and Kashmir is lost or abandoned.

Unlike Pakistan, India seems to have extra-regional aims such as being recognized as a major power. To this end, it is lobbying for a permanent seat on the United Nations Security Council (UNSC). However, to effectively become one, India has to counterbalance not only Pakistan but also China ─ which is larger and more resourceful than India in area, population, economic strength and military capabilities. Both China and Pakistan are India’s neighbors with a history of territorial disputes, armed clashes and wars. Though China and India ties took a positive turn in the post-Cold War period, mutual misgivings persist. Moreover, in Modi-led India, antagonism, jingoism and populism have trumped rational thinking. It is no surprise then that the Indian military has clashed twice with China in the last five years. Though violence and casualties have remained low-scale, it could affect bilateral economic cooperation.

As far as Pakistan is concerned, the Modi Sarkar attempted to set new military thresholds by crossing into Pakistan’s territory in February 2019. Reactively, Pakistan shot down a couple of Indian jets and captured a pilot, Abhinandan Varthaman, who was later handed over to India as a goodwill gesture.

Five months later, India launched another attack, though non-military in character. It unilaterally revoked Article 370 and 35A of its constitution that accorded a special status to Jammu and Kashmir. Pakistan-India relations have further deteriorated since then. Though Pakistan did not prefer military means due to constraints such as the FATF, it has projected India as a terrorist state for its gross human rights violations in Jammu and Kashmir. Moreover, Pakistan has called on the international community and organizations such as the United Nations to help resolve the conflict as per the UN’s resolutions. However, India has been adamant so far, not budging an inch from its new position adopted in 2019. The prospects of a Modi-led India reversing Article 370 and 35A looks grim in 2023, too.

Besides Jammu and Kashmir, another area of tussle between Pakistan and India pertains to Taliban-led Afghanistan. India, as the world knows, developed close ties, first with the Karzai government and, later, the Ghani-Abdullah set-up. However, it seems clueless on how to deal with the current power dynamics in Afghanistan, where Pakistan and China have played an important role in terms of economic assistance and have maintained de facto diplomatic relations in 2022.

To distract Pakistan from consolidating ties with Kabul and to divert focus to Kashmir, India has been assisting anti-Pakistan actors such as the Tehreek-i-Taliban Pakistan (TTP). The latter has, only recently, carried out suicide terrorist attacks in KP and Islamabad. It has also declared its partnership with a Baloch terrorist organization, which has attacked the state apparatus in Balochistan in recent years. Pakistan’s foreign minister, Mr. Bilawal Bhutto Zardari, reactively exposed India’s role in harboring terrorism in Pakistan at a recently held UN session.

Importantly, the newly appointed chief of Pakistan Army, General Asim Munir, visited the Kashmir sector. While addressing the soldiers he said “let me make it categorically clear, Pakistan’s armed forces are ever ready, not only to defend every inch of our motherland, but to take the fight back to the enemy [India] if ever war is imposed on us.”

Last but not least, Pakistan and India continued to observe the ceasefire on LoC and Working Boundary. This is a healthy sign insofar as regional peace and security are concerned. Similarly, a hotline needs to be established to prevent accidental or unintentional launch of a tactical weapon, such as a ballistic missile. An Indian missile crossed the border and landed in Pakistan’s Punjab in March 2022. Luckily, there was no damage done to person and property; however, such weapons are potentially dangerous. Finally, Pakistan and India, as per past trends, observed extremely low-scale trade in 2022. Same was the case with the so-called track-II diplomacy.

What can be summarized in view of the foregoing is that Pakistan-India relations remained non-cordial in 2022. The two sides still seem to be preoccupied with the lingering conflict of Jammu and Kashmir. Moreover, the two countries continue to engage in a confrontational discourse on Afghanistan. Each accused the other of sponsoring terrorism against each other. However, Pakistan marked a clarity in its diplomatic approach to project India as a state sponsoring regional terrorism.

Though the two sides observed the ceasefire at the Line of Control, yet Jammu and Kashmir remains the bone of contention. In addition, bilateral trade remained low-scale. If 2022 is an empirical reference, it is hard to predict any major breakthrough in India-Pakistan relations in 2023. Jammu and Kashmir will continue to influence state behavior and government policy as far as bilateralism is concerned. Pakistan will continue to diplomatically highlight the Kashmiri plight globally.

However, Pakistan is not expected to use military means in seeking a solution to the Kashmir conflict. Indo-Pak war is not likely to break out in 2023 due to the presence of nuclear weapons, whose strategic significance is discursively reflected in bilateral conviction to observe peace at the international boarder, LoC and the Working Boundary. A non-hot LoC is a prerequitse to keep the conflict in Kashmir under control.

Pakistan suffered the most economically in 2022. In order to feed its growing population, Pakistan must devise a strategy to reap economic dividends through regional trade.

This is the domain that Pakistan, India, Afghanistan, China and the US ought to ponder over in 2023 and beyond. Without trade and economic cooperation, Pakistan will suffer the most, since India is expanding its market connectivity and trade linkages with key stakeholders, including China.

https://www.thefridaytimes.com/2022/12/31/india-pakistan-relations-the-forecast-for-2023/
 
Peaceful relations with India are against the interests of the establishment. An amicable Kashmir resolution means the grip of the establishment would weaken.

Kashmir is just a tool to exert domestic influence. Therefore, nothing will change this year.
 
Peaceful relations with India are against the interests of the establishment. An amicable Kashmir resolution means the grip of the establishment would weaken.

Kashmir is just a tool to exert domestic influence. Therefore, nothing will change this year.

But your crooks are part of the establishment, so why don't they set them straight:)):)):)):))
 
Not much changing for better surely with Pakistani foreign minister's latest statements. TBH India must focus on integrating economically with ASEAN and West as trade routes with and via Pakistan is not possible in current circumstances.
 
nothings changing for the better, rulers in both countries extract great value from the distraction the mortal enemy provides.
 
India's priorities in foreign policy has changed in recent years. Now focus is mostly on South East Asia, QUAD and countering China

Pakistan is very low on priorities. Earlier there was feeling that trade and commerce with Pakistan might benefit us but with Pakistan's economic woes that narrative has disappeared. In essence no incentive for India to restart relations with Pakistan !

So status quo will continue
 
Question is if India is even wanting a relationship. They are well set on their path to be one of the big powers. They are happy to sit on the sidelines while things explode in Pakistan. Latest statements by Bhutto confirm what establishment thinks. So, no hope for better future between the two nations.
 
India's priorities in foreign policy has changed in recent years. Now focus is mostly on South East Asia, QUAD and countering China

Pakistan is very low on priorities. Earlier there was feeling that trade and commerce with Pakistan might benefit us but with Pakistan's economic woes that narrative has disappeared. In essence no incentive for India to restart relations with Pakistan !

So status quo will continue

So true. Pakistan is at vest nuisance value for them. It’s amazing how much things have changed over last 10 years. The gulf will only increase further.
 
India's priorities in foreign policy has changed in recent years. Now focus is mostly on South East Asia, QUAD and countering China

Pakistan is very low on priorities. Earlier there was feeling that trade and commerce with Pakistan might benefit us but with Pakistan's economic woes that narrative has disappeared. In essence no incentive for India to restart relations with Pakistan !

So status quo will continue

Exactly.
Trade between the two countries have remained suspended for a few years now but it has had no impact on our economy.

Both countries surviving without relationship and trade.
 
<b>India, Pakistan exchange lists of nuclear facilities, prisoners</b>

Pakistan says it has handed a list of its nuclear installations and facilities to the Indian mission in Islamabad under a decades-old agreement between the two nuclear-armed rivals.

Pakistan’s foreign office said in a statement on Sunday that India had simultaneously handed over a list to the Pakistani mission in New Delhi.

It said lists are exchanged annually on January 1. The practice has been in place since 1992.

“The list of nuclear installations and facilities in Pakistan was officially handed over to a representative of the Indian High Commission in Islamabad at the Ministry of Foreign Affairs today [Sunday],” Pakistan’s foreign office said.

The annual exchanges come at a time diplomatic ties between the two are near non-existent.

In a separate statement, Pakistan’s foreign office said the two countries had also exchanged a list of each other’s citizens held in prisons.

The list included 705 Indian prisoners imprisoned in Pakistan, including 51 civilians and 654 fishermen, the statement said.

It added that the Indian government also shared with the Pakistani mission in New Delhi a list of 434 Pakistani prisoners in India, including 339 civilians and 95 fishermen.

Pakistan has requested the early release and repatriation of 51 of its civilian prisoners and 94 fishermen who have completed their sentences.

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/1/1/india-pakistan-exchange-list-of-nuclear-facilities
 
The posts above mentioning lack of trade of late, India not needing to trade with Pakistan (not missing anything by lack of it) are unfortunately true. What does Pakistan have to bring to the table that is a compelling enough trade offering? Probably agricultural products like cotton or maybe some other commodity/agriculture product? There are no upper value chain offerings like refined/finished goods (or even assembled goods), no quality-competitive home manufactured offering, no strong services offering. The only compelling offerings are niche commodity/agriculture products and thats it (depressing to me even as I type this).

History has shown that commodity/agriculture based economy cannot stay competitive enough for too long to be able to better the knowledge/economic standards of their citizens (unless it is rare exceptions like oil that last longer but even then you better have a plan for after-oil times). In 70+ years Pakistan has not been able to move up the value chain beyond its niche commodity offering.

The only countries interested in Pakistan these days - China, middle east (to an extent) - are interested because of Pakistan's other niche offering, it's geo-political location. So they are interested because they want to use Pakistan as a board piece in their own geo-political games (China) or they want Pakistan's vote/people to side by them in whatever organization that is applicable. The West used Pakistan for its location until 2010s and now that the utility is not there for them anymore, they have gone ahead with India these days.

I'm very happy to stand corrected here (and I wish I'm wrong) - but is there anything compelling that Pakistan can offer as a trade partner besides select commodities or it's geo-political location?

Generally diplomatic/political power and military power originate from economic power. Without a strong trade backed economic power against India, Pakistan lacks any big leverage against India. Once again, this backs Pakistan into a corner where all roads lead to China, and the only way Pakistan can hope to have (proxy) leverage against India will be through China. This will then force Pakistan into another darker economic corner so that the Chinese masters can squeeze even more out of an already struggling nation (CPEC 2.0 anyone?)

This also begs an open question - How can Pakistan overcome these structural limitations to create leverage against India without selling their everything to countries like China?
 
Question is if India is even wanting a relationship. They are well set on their path to be one of the big powers. They are happy to sit on the sidelines while things explode in Pakistan. Latest statements by Bhutto confirm what establishment thinks. So, no hope for better future between the two nations.

India is a third world and a poor country as well, not some great power you are making it out to be.

As far as improving the relationship with India goes the ball is in India's court as Pakistan wants peace.
 
India is a third world and a poor country as well, not some great power you are making it out to be.

As far as improving the relationship with India goes the ball is in India's court as Pakistan wants peace.

Actually that's true. India is third world country by most benchmark. But world doesnt bet on countries based on our wish list. It bets based on its interests and future prospects.

India's reserves is $600bn. It will be fastest growing large economy in 2023 and will overtake Germany and Japan in 5 years. It has largest capital investment in the world with fastest growing start up space. Investment in India stock market lends the cagr as US market. In 10 years the largest English speaking skilled population will be India. Indians are one of the most successful diaspora in the world.

So, fact is that they don't have to entertain Pakistan.
 
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The posts above mentioning lack of trade of late, India not needing to trade with Pakistan (not missing anything by lack of it) are unfortunately true. What does Pakistan have to bring to the table that is a compelling enough trade offering? Probably agricultural products like cotton or maybe some other commodity/agriculture product? There are no upper value chain offerings like refined/finished goods (or even assembled goods), no quality-competitive home manufactured offering, no strong services offering. The only compelling offerings are niche commodity/agriculture products and thats it (depressing to me even as I type this).

History has shown that commodity/agriculture based economy cannot stay competitive enough for too long to be able to better the knowledge/economic standards of their citizens (unless it is rare exceptions like oil that last longer but even then you better have a plan for after-oil times). In 70+ years Pakistan has not been able to move up the value chain beyond its niche commodity offering.

The only countries interested in Pakistan these days - China, middle east (to an extent) - are interested because of Pakistan's other niche offering, it's geo-political location. So they are interested because they want to use Pakistan as a board piece in their own geo-political games (China) or they want Pakistan's vote/people to side by them in whatever organization that is applicable. The West used Pakistan for its location until 2010s and now that the utility is not there for them anymore, they have gone ahead with India these days.

I'm very happy to stand corrected here (and I wish I'm wrong) - but is there anything compelling that Pakistan can offer as a trade partner besides select commodities or it's geo-political location?

Generally diplomatic/political power and military power originate from economic power. Without a strong trade backed economic power against India, Pakistan lacks any big leverage against India. Once again, this backs Pakistan into a corner where all roads lead to China, and the only way Pakistan can hope to have (proxy) leverage against India will be through China. This will then force Pakistan into another darker economic corner so that the Chinese masters can squeeze even more out of an already struggling nation (CPEC 2.0 anyone?)

This also begs an open question - How can Pakistan overcome these structural limitations to create leverage against India without selling their everything to countries like China?

Top post.
 
Question is if India is even wanting a relationship. They are well set on their path to be one of the big powers. They are happy to sit on the sidelines while things explode in Pakistan. Latest statements by Bhutto confirm what establishment thinks. So, no hope for better future between the two nations.

This is the narrative among India's strategic thinkers. Just leave Pakistan alone. They will implode due to political chaos, insurgency and economic crisis

Only thing India needs to worry is protect itself from any fallout by securing the borders and prevent militants from doing attacks like Mumbai attacks

After Mumbai attacks, most strategic think tanks agreed there is little chance of any peace and harmony with Pakistan as long as Army and ISI rules supreme in Pakistan. So little point in wasting time

Frankly this is the correct path forward. India and Pakistan should just move on and pretend they never knew each other. Its actually the best decision for both sides !
 
Actually that's true. India is third world country by most benchmark. But world doesnt bet on countries based on our wish list. It bets based on its interests and future prospects.

India's reserves is $600bn. It will be fastest growing large economy in 2023 and will overtake Germany and Japan in 5 years. It has largest capital investment in the world with fastest growing start up space. Investment in India stock market lends the cagr as US market. In 10 years the largest English speaking skilled population will be India. Indians are one of the most successful diaspora in the world.

So, fact is that they don't have to entertain Pakistan.

Despite all that, India has more people in poverty than the entire population of Pakistan.

So it will be better if they try to cooperate with Pakistan in trade and development to uplift the poor people of the region but as IK said small man in a big office won't let that happen.
 
This is the narrative among India's strategic thinkers. Just leave Pakistan alone. They will implode due to political chaos, insurgency and economic crisis

Only thing India needs to worry is protect itself from any fallout by securing the borders and prevent militants from doing attacks like Mumbai attacks

After Mumbai attacks, most strategic think tanks agreed there is little chance of any peace and harmony with Pakistan as long as Army and ISI rules supreme in Pakistan. So little point in wasting time

Frankly this is the correct path forward. India and Pakistan should just move on and pretend they never knew each other. Its actually the best decision for both sides !

You lot should worry about the future of your own country. Plenty of separatist movements and insurgencies are present in your country.

Dreams of Pakistan imploding will remain just that dreams.
 
Despite all that, India has more people in poverty than the entire population of Pakistan.

So it will be better if they try to cooperate with Pakistan in trade and development to uplift the poor people of the region but as IK said small man in a big office won't let that happen.

So what does Pakistan have to offer to uplift poverty in India.
 
You lot should worry about the future of your own country. Plenty of separatist movements and insurgencies are present in your country.

Dreams of Pakistan imploding will remain just that dreams.

Exactly. India should worry about its own. Pakistan should worry about its own. Will benefit both nations

No point poking noses in each other's matters
 
As some posters has rightly said, India is a third world country and need to focus in putting their house in order first which is taking care of the economy, education, health and infrastructure - as well as generate employment opportunities across manufacturing, services and business for its population.
 
Two gunmen sprayed bullets toward a row of civilian homes in a remote village in Indian-controlled Kashmir, leaving at least four civilians dead and five others injured, police have said, with a subsequent explosion killing a child hours later. Police blamed militants fighting against Indian rule for decades for carrying out the attack at Dhangri village in southern Rajouri district, which is close to the highly militarised Line of Control that divides the disputed region between India and Pakistan.

Top police officer Mukesh Singh told local reporters the men indiscriminately opened fire Sunday night at three houses in Dhangri.

He said four civilians were killed and five others were injured.

Authorities rushed police and soldiers to the area and launched search for the attackers.

On Monday, a child was killed and five other civilians injured in a blast that occurred near one of the houses targeted overnight in the village, police said.

It was unclear whether the explosive was left behind by the attackers.

Manoj Sinha, New Delhi's top administrator in the region, condemned the incident and called it a "cowardly terror attack."

He said: "I assure the people that those behind this despicable attack will not go unpunished."

There was no independent confirmation of the attack.

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/worl...sedgntp&cvid=b612c9a5c4af435099b340d14ca36e56
 
As long as BJP is in power, I doubt any improvement can happen.

I expect current status quo to remain as it is.
 
Pakistan is very low on the list for India I think. They have bigger fish to fry.
 
Despite all that, India has more people in poverty than the entire population of Pakistan.
.

By volume of numbers by that same account India also has one of the largest number of billionaires in the world too. It’s no 4 in that list. Obviously you want to overlook that because it doesn’t fit your narrative.

Having said that no one denies India doesn’t have its issues of poverty etc or neither do anyone one claims india is already a superpower. However
one who reads the normal newspaper, world news or holds basic common sense and has clinically apt iq is either a hater or totally delusional and an illiterate if they deny India isn’t a powerful player in world economy or world politics. It’s the 5th largest economy in the world by those same numbers. Make whatever of that information.
 
Pakistan is very low on the list for India I think. They have bigger fish to fry.

It’s a fair balance. Pakistan cannot be totally ignored as well. When I say Pakistan don’t mean the common people but there is enough system in place from Pakistan establishment where there is enough ammunition to create nuisance and disturbances in India. So India cannot afford to totally ignore Pakistan.

I agree at an economic, diplomatic trade and other factors Pakistan is practically irrelevant for India but from an intelligence, military and defense matters its is a pretty critical to keep them as top priority.
 
For those saying nothing will happen under BJP, that may be partly true. But the truth is change may only happen if the Pakistani establishment ( read military) is defanged. Not sure why y'all think things are gonna be better under Congress/AAP.

I personally don't see any upside to pursuing better relatioks with Pakistan as long as we know who is actually in power.

Besides, both countries need to focus on their respective economies. India is descending into oligarchy and allowing frauds like Adani, a few banks etc. to literally get away with murder - one look at Adani financials should be enough.

We need tighter regulation(I'm dreaming here) and we need some real economic development and create jobs etc.

Pakistan needs to somehow remain solvent.

Much bigger issues than bilateral relations to be honest.
 
For those saying nothing will happen under BJP, that may be partly true. But the truth is change may only happen if the Pakistani establishment ( read military) is defanged. Not sure why y'all think things are gonna be better under Congress/AAP.

I personally don't see any upside to pursuing better relatioks with Pakistan as long as we know who is actually in power.

Besides, both countries need to focus on their respective economies. India is descending into oligarchy and allowing frauds like Adani, a few banks etc. to literally get away with murder - one look at Adani financials should be enough.

We need tighter regulation(I'm dreaming here) and we need some real economic development and create jobs etc.

Pakistan needs to somehow remain solvent.

Much bigger issues than bilateral relations to be honest.

Well said, If Pakistani establishment can destroy democratically elected governments in their own country for personal gains what hope is there for them to deal with Gandhi-Mamta or even Kejriwal.
 
For those saying nothing will happen under BJP, that may be partly true. But the truth is change may only happen if the Pakistani establishment ( read military) is defanged. Not sure why y'all think things are gonna be better under Congress/AAP.

I personally don't see any upside to pursuing better relatioks with Pakistan as long as we know who is actually in power.

Besides, both countries need to focus on their respective economies. India is descending into oligarchy and allowing frauds like Adani, a few banks etc. to literally get away with murder - one look at Adani financials should be enough.

We need tighter regulation(I'm dreaming here) and we need some real economic development and create jobs etc.

Pakistan needs to somehow remain solvent.

Much bigger issues than bilateral relations to be honest.

While I understand that the control exerted by military establishment in Pakistan is not positive, do understand that it also takes two to tango and the path for some semblance of non-hostile relationship is not just one way.

I'm not saying all of India is bad but look at the core of the majority Hindi belt and their open hatred for anything associated with Pakistan or Pakistanis. Please also notice how much of an increasing trend this is. Do you think all of this hatred is only because of military establishment's control of Pakistan? If by some magic the military control in Pakistan goes away, then this entrenched culture of hatred from India's Hindi cow belt will also just go away?

Typically the responses to this is along the lines of "They hate Pakistan because of Mumbai attacks, XYZ attacks ..." but let's be honest here, is all the hatred only from post 1947 political differences? I think not. It is apparent that at least an extreme section of the Hindi belt's right wing is suffering from inferiority complex of having been ruled by those "Mughal outsiders" and somehow they view Pakistan as that, so there is also a historical context that is rooted in their hatred that may not go away with a magical political solution.

Like I said ... takes two to tango here.
 
While I understand that the control exerted by military establishment in Pakistan is not positive, do understand that it also takes two to tango and the path for some semblance of non-hostile relationship is not just one way.

I'm not saying all of India is bad but look at the core of the majority Hindi belt and their open hatred for anything associated with Pakistan or Pakistanis. Please also notice how much of an increasing trend this is. Do you think all of this hatred is only because of military establishment's control of Pakistan? If by some magic the military control in Pakistan goes away, then this entrenched culture of hatred from India's Hindi cow belt will also just go away?

Typically the responses to this is along the lines of "They hate Pakistan because of Mumbai attacks, XYZ attacks ..." but let's be honest here, is all the hatred only from post 1947 political differences? I think not. It is apparent that at least an extreme section of the Hindi belt's right wing is suffering from inferiority complex of having been ruled by those "Mughal outsiders" and somehow they view Pakistan as that, so there is also a historical context that is rooted in their hatred that may not go away with a magical political solution.

Like I said ... takes two to tango here.

PS: Not to digress here but I seldom see this historical complex/context driven hate from the South Indians and it makes sense since they were mostly not ruled over by Islamic dynasties. If South India were a separate nation and if by some magic political and border hostilities disappear, I can see Pakistan and South India having near normal relations like Pakistan and Sri Lanka. But I cannot see Pakistan and North India having that even with zero border/Kashmir/Pakisyan military issues.
 
While I understand that the control exerted by military establishment in Pakistan is not positive, do understand that it also takes two to tango and the path for some semblance of non-hostile relationship is not just one way.

I'm not saying all of India is bad but look at the core of the majority Hindi belt and their open hatred for anything associated with Pakistan or Pakistanis. Please also notice how much of an increasing trend this is. Do you think all of this hatred is only because of military establishment's control of Pakistan? If by some magic the military control in Pakistan goes away, then this entrenched culture of hatred from India's Hindi cow belt will also just go away?

Typically the responses to this is along the lines of "They hate Pakistan because of Mumbai attacks, XYZ attacks ..." but let's be honest here, is all the hatred only from post 1947 political differences? I think not. It is apparent that at least an extreme section of the Hindi belt's right wing is suffering from inferiority complex of having been ruled by those "Mughal outsiders" and somehow they view Pakistan as that, so there is also a historical context that is rooted in their hatred that may not go away with a magical political solution.

Like I said ... takes two to tango here.

If this was 100%, Atal Bihari Vajpayee would not have come to minar e Pakistan or Narendra Modi wouldn't have come to meet Nawaz Sharif. On first occasion India got Kargil and on second one Pathankot. In complicated power structure that is Pakistan any country would prefer to know who is really in charge.
 
No improvement. Perhaps a minor war or skirmishes at the border with both sides holding their own. For now India should be very worried about China more then Pak. I think Asim Munir has told China to keep India occupied at the border.
 
PS: Not to digress here but I seldom see this historical complex/context driven hate from the South Indians and it makes sense since they were mostly not ruled over by Islamic dynasties. If South India were a separate nation and if by some magic political and border hostilities disappear, I can see Pakistan and South India having near normal relations like Pakistan and Sri Lanka. But I cannot see Pakistan and North India having that even with zero border/Kashmir/Pakisyan military issues.

In gonna reply to both your posts here. This hatred your talking about maybe real. But let's face it- a lot of Pakistanis, even in your establishment, have nothing but contempt for Hindus or those ethnicities they consider inferior like Bengalis etc. 1971 was a clear example of that.

And besides, my reply to those posters still stands even if I take your arguments on face value. How will a change of government improve relations with Pakistan. Neither Congress nor AAP will pursue a policy that will potentially alienate their vote base .

Im South Indian. As are quite a few posters on PP. We may not have the kind of visceral hatred for Pakistanis that some others have but to say that there would be better diplomatic relations is extremely naive. Nobody has a particularly rosy view of Pakistan and I've not met anyone who even claims they want better relations with Pakistan.
 
In gonna reply to both your posts here. This hatred your talking about maybe real. But let's face it- a lot of Pakistanis, even in your establishment, have nothing but contempt for Hindus or those ethnicities they consider inferior like Bengalis etc. 1971 was a clear example of that.

And besides, my reply to those posters still stands even if I take your arguments on face value. How will a change of government improve relations with Pakistan. Neither Congress nor AAP will pursue a policy that will potentially alienate their vote base .

Im South Indian. As are quite a few posters on PP. We may not have the kind of visceral hatred for Pakistanis that some others have but to say that there would be better diplomatic relations is extremely naive. Nobody has a particularly rosy view of Pakistan and I've not met anyone who even claims they want better relations with Pakistan.

You have stated pretty much how it is. Infact while South Indians do not have the same level of negative vibes for Pakistan, it is also equally true that they have less appetite to have any major ties with Pakistan unlike a section of North Indians who romanticize to have a closer relation due to trade ties and historic affinity with regards to food, language, culture, literature. Infact I will say it will be difficult for Pakistanis to deal with South India as they are relatively professional and business oriented and will not really waste time if there is no productive relation with Pakistan in terms of business and jobs which on other hand a North Indian might deal more patiently because likely they have some ties with that part of the subcontinent.
 
In gonna reply to both your posts here. This hatred your talking about maybe real. But let's face it- a lot of Pakistanis, even in your establishment, have nothing but contempt for Hindus or those ethnicities they consider inferior like Bengalis etc. 1971 was a clear example of that.

And besides, my reply to those posters still stands even if I take your arguments on face value. How will a change of government improve relations with Pakistan. Neither Congress nor AAP will pursue a policy that will potentially alienate their vote base .

Im South Indian. As are quite a few posters on PP. We may not have the kind of visceral hatred for Pakistanis that some others have but to say that there would be better diplomatic relations is extremely naive. Nobody has a particularly rosy view of Pakistan and I've not met anyone who even claims they want better relations with Pakistan.

Fair points here. I'm not denying there is visceral hatred (I like your choice of phrase here and I'm borrowing it) in both the sides. Akhand Bharat is probably equated with Ghazwa-e-Hind. From Pakistan's pov, the visceral hatred exists among extreme elements. Among the general population in Pakistan there is less of this, and matter of fact people go out of their way to not charge or help when they know someone is from India (evident from many such events when Indian team was touring Pakistan back in the day).

Also look at so many Pakistani Youtube channels with real people opining about Pakistan (perhaps Sana Amjad channel is a starting point). Not all of these are clickbait opinions to increase view counts, right? So forget politicians/governments/extreme elements since all of them have vested interests (and yes I agree that Pakistan also has such elements like India does). Consider general public and real people - how many such general people have anything non-negative to say about Pakistan? Will it be as many people as Pakistan has about India? Let's please be honest here.


"Im South Indian. As are quite a few posters on PP. We may not have the kind of visceral hatred for Pakistanis that some others have but to say that there would be better diplomatic relations is extremely naive. Nobody has a particularly rosy view of Pakistan and I've not met anyone who even claims they want better relations with Pakistan." --

-- The visceral hatred is my point actually. Everyday Pakistanis for a good part distinguish India plus its Hindutva government and Indians the people. My point was that a higher percentage of North Indians (higher than Pakistanis or higher than South Indians) do not make this distinction and equate a normal every day Pakistani with TTP/ISI or any other religious/political establishment. With a visceral hatred in place, no amount of political change can remove the hatred.

Hence my point that even if everything magically becomes cordial from both the sides, maybe the South Indians may not have hatred towards Pakistanis but North Indians surely will. Pakistanis will have less visceral hatred against Indians relative to North Indians.

Anyways, I do recognize that I'm sharing subjective interpretations that are not fact based so my "blue" shade could be your "red" shade and vice versa. I'm generally not looking for arguments in these forums, just sharing my 0.02 is all.
 
You have stated pretty much how it is. Infact while South Indians do not have the same level of negative vibes for Pakistan, it is also equally true that they have less appetite to have any major ties with Pakistan unlike a section of North Indians who romanticize to have a closer relation due to trade ties and historic affinity with regards to food, language, culture, literature. Infact I will say it will be difficult for Pakistanis to deal with South India as they are relatively professional and business oriented and will not really waste time if there is no productive relation with Pakistan in terms of business and jobs which on other hand a North Indian might deal more patiently because likely they have some ties with that part of the subcontinent.

Forget closer relations. Not having a visceral hatred is level 1, which Pakistanis would take from South Indians relative to what North Indians can offer. Over time if/when Pakistan does have trade components of value, then anyone without pointless hatred will seek closer relations for the sake of trade/economic benefits.
 
Forget closer relations. Not having a visceral hatred is level 1, which Pakistanis would take from South Indians relative to what North Indians can offer. Over time if/when Pakistan does have trade components of value, then anyone without pointless hatred will seek closer relations for the sake of trade/economic benefits.


I think you will see such a neutral/indifferent stand from the government as well more and more( You can see how Indian government sidestepped the comments from Imran Khan and Bilawal Bhutto in recent times). Yes the typical right wing elements and media will try to create noise in the internal politics to make themselves visible, but from foreign policy standpoint and on external front I don't think one will see any love or hate which was more common till 2019-20 during Modi's first 5 years. India knows it has other problems to solve both internally and externally and that's were the focus must be.
 
You lot should worry about the future of your own country. Plenty of separatist movements and insurgencies are present in your country.

Dreams of Pakistan imploding will remain just that dreams.

Pakistanis should worry about theirs. No?
 
Despite all that, India has more people in poverty than the entire population of Pakistan.

So it will be better if they try to cooperate with Pakistan in trade and development to uplift the poor people of the region but as IK said small man in a big office won't let that happen.

Pakistan is begging around the world for bailouts and is on the verge of bankruptcy and here we have a guy lecturing India about poverty.

India has no benefit in engaging with Pakistan when the result will ultimately be detrimental to India
 
PS: Not to digress here but I seldom see this historical complex/context driven hate from the South Indians and it makes sense since they were mostly not ruled over by Islamic dynasties. If South India were a separate nation and if by some magic political and border hostilities disappear, I can see Pakistan and South India having near normal relations like Pakistan and Sri Lanka. But I cannot see Pakistan and North India having that even with zero border/Kashmir/Pakisyan military issues.

Pretty sure if Baluchistan and NWFP becomes independent nations - then they will have normal relations with India. Just like Afghanistan

Having physical borders makes issues complicated. Example only reason Pakistan sends militants across the border in Kashmir and Punjab is bcoz they have land border. This is what creates lot of bad blood in North India - as majority of Indian army results are from North India. Same reason Afghanistan have troubled relations with Pakistan but not with India. Pakistan accuse Afghanistan of harboring TTP militants.

Now look at Bengal and Bangladesh . They have long border and terrible history of partition riots in 1947 - but you dont see any enmity between the 2 regions bcoz hey dont train militants to create terror in each other's region. In fact there is booming trade and commerce between the 2 regions. During Christmas and New Year , loads of wealthy Bangladeshis flock to Calcutta to celebrate the holidays

Now talking of South India, Tamil Nadu has no issues with Pakistan but they have bitter relations with Sri Lanka - bcoz of Tamil issue. Bcoz Sri Lanka have coastal borders with Sri Lanka and Tamil Ealam was emotional issue. Thats why few years back Sri Lankan cricketers were barred from playing in Chennai.

Now coming to North India and Pakistan - there wud be booming trade and commerce if there is peace on the borders. Just like Bengal and Bangladesh. Nobody wud really care about 1947 or Mughals any more. But as long as terror attacks keep happening - only yesterday 6 were killed in Jammu by islamist terrorists -it wud create more bad blood and there will be no scope for peace and harmony
 
Neither the pakistani military establishment nor the Modi Government will soften their stance. I dont see this year being any different than the previous years. Cricket will still be a no-go area for India.
 
Pretty sure if Baluchistan and NWFP becomes independent nations - then they will have normal relations with India. Just like Afghanistan

Having physical borders makes issues complicated. Example only reason Pakistan sends militants across the border in Kashmir and Punjab is bcoz they have land border. This is what creates lot of bad blood in North India - as majority of Indian army results are from North India. Same reason Afghanistan have troubled relations with Pakistan but not with India. Pakistan accuse Afghanistan of harboring TTP militants.

Now look at Bengal and Bangladesh . They have long border and terrible history of partition riots in 1947 - but you dont see any enmity between the 2 regions bcoz hey dont train militants to create terror in each other's region. In fact there is booming trade and commerce between the 2 regions. During Christmas and New Year , loads of wealthy Bangladeshis flock to Calcutta to celebrate the holidays

Now talking of South India, Tamil Nadu has no issues with Pakistan but they have bitter relations with Sri Lanka - bcoz of Tamil issue. Bcoz Sri Lanka have coastal borders with Sri Lanka and Tamil Ealam was emotional issue. Thats why few years back Sri Lankan cricketers were barred from playing in Chennai.

Now coming to North India and Pakistan - there wud be booming trade and commerce if there is peace on the borders. Just like Bengal and Bangladesh. Nobody wud really care about 1947 or Mughals any more. But as long as terror attacks keep happening - only yesterday 6 were killed in Jammu by islamist terrorists -it wud create more bad blood and there will be no scope for peace and harmony

Same with Khalistan, Assam and IoK that they will have excellent relations with Pak when not if they are liberated. Pak does not have any issues with South India at all in fact they are like strangers to us. If India wants peace then it must stop terrorism through Afghanistan and supporting the BLA in Baluchistan otherwise ISI knows how to badly hurt India too. With China already giving India the runaround it surely doesn't want to pick a fight with Pak as well like Rahul Gandhi admits.

The relationship between India and Bangladesh may not be as rosy as you feel. It does help that India does not have any Kashmir like dispute with them. The ones they do are very minor ones that can be easily sorted with a bit of give and take. Bangladesh is happy to be an Indian client state then why would India pick a fight with them?

Blaming Pakistan for terrorism in IoK does no one any good. If you keep killing and oppressing Kashmris then naturally they will hit back hard too. Let the UN enter IoK to see for themselves if you have nothing to hide otherwise stop crying "terrorism" all the time. It seems that Bilawal Bhutto's recent comments about Modi has hit India so very hard in the right place too.
 
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I have met some South Indian's who have no problem with Pak. The know little about Siachen, Kargil, previous war's or even the Kashmir dispute. If anything they seem intrigued with Pak in a good way as if we are from another planet. This would be because they keep hearing about Pakistan/is on their news channels but have never met one.

Naturally culture and linguistic similarities play a part as well. They will be much more comfortable with Sri Lanka like our Pathans are with Afghanistan. Ancient links will always play a part even if lines are drawn on sand.
 
A Nawaz return might change things for the better, he quickly established a good working relationship with modi. If the govt. and the establishment are on the same page something can be worked out. From recent events it's quite obvious that the indian govt. is willing to shake hands with anyone for a beneficial deal. Pakistan offers ready access to countries on the western border, a trade deal benefitting both markets etc..
 
Pakistan is begging around the world for bailouts and is on the verge of bankruptcy and here we have a guy lecturing India about poverty.

India has no benefit in engaging with Pakistan when the result will ultimately be detrimental to India

Share of population living under $5.5 a day

India 86.8%

Bangladesh 84.5%

Pakistan 79.5%

(World Bank)

Pakistan has lesser poverty than India, fix your own house first before chest thumping here.
 
Share of population living under $5.5 a day

India 86.8%

Bangladesh 84.5%

Pakistan 79.5%

(World Bank)

Pakistan has lesser poverty than India, fix your own house first before chest thumping here.

These Indians amuse me, lol. They think their country is some sort of paradise when in reality its a hellhole with poverty even worse than Pakistan.

Meanwhile the reality of Shining India is below:

Bimaru states make India poorer than Pakistan, says World Bank report

India is the poorest country in South Asia, over 270 million people in India live below international poverty lines. India’s poverty rate is around 21.2 per cent which is worse than its neighbour Pakistan (6.1 per cent), a study by the World Bank has revealed.

The second poorest country in South Asia is Bangladesh (18.5 per cent), followed by Nepal (15 per cent). Poverty has been largely calculated on three aspects that is lack of good health, education and living standards and India tops the list for having the largest population that has no access to these essentials.

The study found that Indian states like Uttar Pradesh (60 lakh), Bihar (36 lakh), Madhya Pradesh (24 lakh), Odisha (14 lakh), Jharkhand (13 lakh), Rajasthan and Chhattisgarh (10 lakh), lead in the number of poor people with low incomes that fall below the international poverty rate. Of the 270 million people that have been categorised below the standard, 70 per cent live in rural Indian and 30 per cent in urban India.

These 270 million people have lower access to basic services like toilets, electricity and tap water. Casual labour is the primary source of income and they spend maximum on their food and fuel and less for education and health.

Sri Lanka has the lowest headcount index (1.9 per cent) while Bhutan reported the second lowest (2.2 per cent) in the South Asian region.

Another expert, Amitabh Kant, social issues observer added, “Hunger and ill health are two chronic poverty issues faced in India. Andhra Pradesh and Telangana suffer a low and declining Human Development Index, in contrast to its low levels of income poverty. On the other hand, Karnataka, and in particular Kerala and Tamil Nadu have strong HDIs and governance is relatively pro-poor. Urban poverty is clearly a specific and complex problem. In order to reduce the growth of poverty, the government should focus on a pro-poor scheme that focuses on education, health and improving living standards.”

However, experts in the field said that the study tried to correlate poverty percentage changes over the years against the country’s population.

Social scientist Devender Kumar said, “India is densely populated than its South Asian neighbouring countries like Sri Lanka, Bangladesh, Nepal, Maldives, Bhutan, Pakistan and more. Bangladesh and Pakistan came into existence only after the partition, while others already existed.” Subsequently, the poverty calculation methodology indices will be based on the population of the country and naturally less for those that are low on population.”

.https://www.deccanchronicle.com/nation/current-affairs/020818/bimaru-states-make-india-poorer-than-pakistan-says-world-bank-report.html#:~:text=India's%20poverty%20rate%20is%20around,Nepal%20(15%20per%20cent).
 
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These Indians amuse me, lol. They think their country is some sort of paradise when in reality its a hellhole with poverty even worse than Pakistan.

Meanwhile the reality of Shining India is below:

Bimaru states make India poorer than Pakistan, says World Bank report

India is the poorest country in South Asia, over 270 million people in India live below international poverty lines. India’s poverty rate is around 21.2 per cent which is worse than its neighbour Pakistan (6.1 per cent), a study by the World Bank has revealed.

The second poorest country in South Asia is Bangladesh (18.5 per cent), followed by Nepal (15 per cent). Poverty has been largely calculated on three aspects that is lack of good health, education and living standards and India tops the list for having the largest population that has no access to these essentials.

The study found that Indian states like Uttar Pradesh (60 lakh), Bihar (36 lakh), Madhya Pradesh (24 lakh), Odisha (14 lakh), Jharkhand (13 lakh), Rajasthan and Chhattisgarh (10 lakh), lead in the number of poor people with low incomes that fall below the international poverty rate. Of the 270 million people that have been categorised below the standard, 70 per cent live in rural Indian and 30 per cent in urban India.

These 270 million people have lower access to basic services like toilets, electricity and tap water. Casual labour is the primary source of income and they spend maximum on their food and fuel and less for education and health.

Sri Lanka has the lowest headcount index (1.9 per cent) while Bhutan reported the second lowest (2.2 per cent) in the South Asian region.

Another expert, Amitabh Kant, social issues observer added, “Hunger and ill health are two chronic poverty issues faced in India. Andhra Pradesh and Telangana suffer a low and declining Human Development Index, in contrast to its low levels of income poverty. On the other hand, Karnataka, and in particular Kerala and Tamil Nadu have strong HDIs and governance is relatively pro-poor. Urban poverty is clearly a specific and complex problem. In order to reduce the growth of poverty, the government should focus on a pro-poor scheme that focuses on education, health and improving living standards.”

However, experts in the field said that the study tried to correlate poverty percentage changes over the years against the country’s population.

Social scientist Devender Kumar said, “India is densely populated than its South Asian neighbouring countries like Sri Lanka, Bangladesh, Nepal, Maldives, Bhutan, Pakistan and more. Bangladesh and Pakistan came into existence only after the partition, while others already existed.” Subsequently, the poverty calculation methodology indices will be based on the population of the country and naturally less for those that are low on population.”

.https://www.deccanchronicle.com/nation/current-affairs/020818/bimaru-states-make-india-poorer-than-pakistan-says-world-bank-report.html#:~:text=India's%20poverty%20rate%20is%20around,Nepal%20(15%20per%20cent).

There is a lot of hubris among some Indians around how wealthy India is, and they generally use gross figures (e.g. gross GDP) to pretend that no one in South Asia comes close to them. My argument to them always is that why are so many Indians willing to move to Canada, Australia, etc since those countries are poorer than India.

The obvious answer is they need to look at per capita figures, and when one does that the difference between India and other south Asian countries becomes marginal. Certainly not enough to seriously have a difference in day to day life. The other thing of note is that India has a greater wealth divide, and the people with the hubris are generally well off.
 
There is a lot of hubris among some Indians around how wealthy India is, and they generally use gross figures (e.g. gross GDP) to pretend that no one in South Asia comes close to them. My argument to them always is that why are so many Indians willing to move to Canada, Australia, etc since those countries are poorer than India.

The obvious answer is they need to look at per capita figures, and when one does that the difference between India and other south Asian countries becomes marginal. Certainly not enough to seriously have a difference in day to day life. The other thing of note is that India has a greater wealth divide, and the people with the hubris are generally well off.

Yeah, India's so called economic growth has benefitted the rich there and has failed to really uplift the people out of poverty. There is a huge wealth inequality in India, thats why even though they have a higher GDP per capita than Pakistan, their rate of extreme poverty is still higher than Pakistan.

So on paper, India should be richer than Pakistan on GDP per capita basis but the latter's lesser wealth inequality means that Pakistan has lower poverty than India.
 
Two Pakistan intelligence officers gunned down in Punjab province

Slain officers were known for their work tracking down members of Pakistan’s Taliban and solving complex armed attacks.


A gunman has shot and killed two officers with Pakistan’s intelligence service outside a roadside restaurant in the east of the country, police and security officials said.

Murtaza Bhatti, a senior police officer in the Punjab province’s district of Khanewal, said the attack on Tuesday took place as the two officers were parking their vehicle.

No one has claimed responsibility for killing the officers, who were known for arresting members of the Pakistani Taliban and other armed groups. They were also known for their expertise in investigating and solving complicated cases, including gun and bomb attacks in Pakistan.

Officials said one of the slain officers was the director of the provincial counterterrorism department, which has played a key role in arresting members of the Tehreek-e-Taliban Pakistan, also known as Pakistani Taliban.

The armed group has stepped up attacks on security forces in recent months after unilaterally ending a ceasefire with the Pakistan government in November.

The Pakistani Taliban are separate but allied with the Afghan Taliban, who seized power in neighbouring Afghanistan in 2021 following the withdrawal of NATO and United States troops after 20 years of conflict.

Pakistan’s Defence Minister Khawaja Muhammad Asif said on Monday that a recent “wave of terrorist attacks” in Pakistan was coming from Pakistani Taliban hiding in Afghanistan. He asked Afghanistan’s Taliban rulers to stop such fighters from using their soil for attacks in Pakistan.

On Tuesday, Afghan Taliban’s chief spokesman, Zabihullah Mujahid, said Afghanistan wanted good relations with all its neighbouring countries, including Pakistan. But he also asked Islamabad to refrain from making provocative statements that can lead to mistrust.

“The Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan values peace and stability in its country, it wants peace and stability for the whole region and continues its efforts in this way,” he said.

He said the “Islamic Emirate is trying its best to ensure that Afghanistan’s territory is not used against Pakistan or any other country”.

Link: https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023...gence-officers-gunned-down-in-punjab-province
 
India should look at the world hunger index before laughing at other poor countries. Instead of picking fights with neighbouring countries first feed and cloth your own people. They stand at pathetic 107 out of 120 yet think they are a superpower. It shows how foolish and illogical Indian people are. https://www.globalhungerindex.org/ranking.html

You see the likes of Ambani and Mittal are not worried about poverty in India. they will never share much of their wealth with the poor other then support certain organisations that claim to do so.
 
In terms of poverty India rightfully belongs with Sudan, Somalia, Liberia and Chad etc.
 
...and when you point out the painful facts to Indian people they'll tell you "according to this report India will be a superpower by 2046. We are already seeing massive poverty eradication so much that in ten years Delhi will be like New York". A totally unreasonable people with childish minds more concerned with Pak affairs then their own mess.
 
In terms of poverty India rightfully belongs with Sudan, Somalia, Liberia and Chad etc.

What is the Global Hunger Index (GHI)?

In common parlance, hunger refers to discomfort due to a lack of food. However, the GHI is not such a simplistic measure “it captures the multidimensional nature of hunger”.
There are 4 measures it used by GHI:
Undernourishment: The share of the population whose caloric intake is insufficient.
This makes up 1/3 of the GHI score.
Child Stunting: The share of children under the age of 5 who have low height for their age, reflecting chronic undernutrition.
This makes up 1/6 of the GHI score.
Child Wasting: The share of children under the age of 5 who have low weight for their height, reflecting acute undernutrition.
This makes up 1/6 of the GHI score.
Child Mortality: The share of children who die before their 5th birthday, reflecting in part the fatal mix of inadequate nutrition and unhealthy environments.
This makes up 1/3 of the GHI score.
The overall score is placed on a 100-point scale and a lower score is better.
A score between 20 and 34.9 is pegged in the “serious” category and this is where India finds itself with a total score of 29.1. (GHI 22)
Why has the Indian government criticised GHI 2022?

The Indian government has questioned the methodology of GHI. There are two major sub-parts to the government’s contention:
First, that the GHI uses “an erroneous measure of hunger”, that 3 out of the 4 variables used are related to children and cannot be representative of the entire population.
Second, that the 4th indicator of GHI, the proportion of undernourished population is “based on an opinion poll conducted on a very small sample size of 3000”, which is not justified with a country like India representing one-fifth of the world’s population.
What are the Recent G
 
[MENTION=46409]IamIndian[/MENTION]

Yes but Pak is a bit better then India on the index. Another thing is we don't go around telling the world of being the next superpower and nonsense like that. Indian government will question everything that challenges it's status quo and comfort zone.

"The Indian government has questioned the methodology of GHI." The index is a very fair analysis of how things stand no doubt about it.
 
These Indians amuse me, lol. They think their country is some sort of paradise when in reality its a hellhole with poverty even worse than Pakistan.

Meanwhile the reality of Shining India is below:

Bimaru states make India poorer than Pakistan, says World Bank report

India is the poorest country in South Asia, over 270 million people in India live below international poverty lines. India’s poverty rate is around 21.2 per cent which is worse than its neighbour Pakistan (6.1 per cent), a study by the World Bank has revealed.

The second poorest country in South Asia is Bangladesh (18.5 per cent), followed by Nepal (15 per cent). Poverty has been largely calculated on three aspects that is lack of good health, education and living standards and India tops the list for having the largest population that has no access to these essentials.

The study found that Indian states like Uttar Pradesh (60 lakh), Bihar (36 lakh), Madhya Pradesh (24 lakh), Odisha (14 lakh), Jharkhand (13 lakh), Rajasthan and Chhattisgarh (10 lakh), lead in the number of poor people with low incomes that fall below the international poverty rate. Of the 270 million people that have been categorised below the standard, 70 per cent live in rural Indian and 30 per cent in urban India.

These 270 million people have lower access to basic services like toilets, electricity and tap water. Casual labour is the primary source of income and they spend maximum on their food and fuel and less for education and health.

Sri Lanka has the lowest headcount index (1.9 per cent) while Bhutan reported the second lowest (2.2 per cent) in the South Asian region.

Another expert, Amitabh Kant, social issues observer added, “Hunger and ill health are two chronic poverty issues faced in India. Andhra Pradesh and Telangana suffer a low and declining Human Development Index, in contrast to its low levels of income poverty. On the other hand, Karnataka, and in particular Kerala and Tamil Nadu have strong HDIs and governance is relatively pro-poor. Urban poverty is clearly a specific and complex problem. In order to reduce the growth of poverty, the government should focus on a pro-poor scheme that focuses on education, health and improving living standards.”

However, experts in the field said that the study tried to correlate poverty percentage changes over the years against the country’s population.

Social scientist Devender Kumar said, “India is densely populated than its South Asian neighbouring countries like Sri Lanka, Bangladesh, Nepal, Maldives, Bhutan, Pakistan and more. Bangladesh and Pakistan came into existence only after the partition, while others already existed.” Subsequently, the poverty calculation methodology indices will be based on the population of the country and naturally less for those that are low on population.”

.https://www.deccanchronicle.com/nation/current-affairs/020818/bimaru-states-make-india-poorer-than-pakistan-says-world-bank-report.html#:~:text=India's%20poverty%20rate%20is%20around,Nepal%20(15%20per%20cent).

Yeah I know about this World Bank report. All of South Asia is poor tbh, but Pakistan is a bit better.

But the sad reality is that South Asia competes with Sub Saharan Africa in terms of poverty.
 
PAKISTAN TERMS INDIAN ALLEGATIONS ‘BASELESS AND FRIVOLOUS’

Pakistan on Wednesday rejected “baseless and frivolous” allegations made by the Indian External Affairs Minister, saying that his latest tirade was a reflection of growing frustration over India’s failure to malign and isolate Pakistan.

Responding to media queries regarding a series of recent statements made by the Indian FM targeting Pakistan, the Foreign Office spokesperson said that for the last several years, India had engaged in a malicious campaign to mislead the international community through a fictitious narrative of victimhood and vile anti-Pakistan propaganda.

“This practice must stop. India’s continued anti-Pakistan diatribe could not hide its brazen involvement in fomenting terrorism on Pakistan’s soil; nor can it conceal the reality of state-sponsored terrorism in Indian Illegally Occupied Jammu and Kashmir (IIOJK).”

“Instead of pointing fingers at others, India should itself end its involvement in terrorism, subversion and espionage against Pakistan,” the statement said.

...
https://arynews.tv/pakistan-terms-indian-allegations-baseless-and-frivolous/
 
India has been crying asking Europe why it does not condemn so called Pakistani terrorism. This is because the west needs Pakistan in many ways. Pak counters India by pointing out Indian terrorism so nothing changes.
 
This thread is sadly devolving into another typical Pakistan-India insults instead of a good geo-political discussion since this is a fantastic discussion point.

Reality - Both countries are poor and struggling on a per-capita basis. They are better off not fighting and focusing fully on economic development of their bottom rungs. BUT this will never happen in our foreseeable future.

To those pointing about per-capita economic equivalents - While it is true that both countries are similar on a per-capita economic basis (as much as the Indian posters would not like to admit), per capita figures largely do not matter in geo-political discussions, total GDP matters more. You can keep pointing it out as a feel good factor but it is irrelevant for this thread. This is because to what extent a country can wield a strong arm against its hostile neighbors (diplomatically or Politically or militarily) depends on how much money the country has (GDP) and not how much money each of its citizens have (per-capita). If needed a country can redirect its total wealth at the expense of some of its own citizens to wield a stronger force (diplomatically or Politically or militarily) against its hostile neighbors. Basic history can tell you this and if you don't believe me then see an extreme example of this in Kim Jong Un's North Korea. Emphasizing it again ... do you really believe that BJP will prioritize poorest citizens in UP/Bihar or prioritize those resources for increased pressure on Pakistan? We all know the answer, so why would per-capita matter (unless you keep saying it for your personal feel good factor)?

In terms of total GDP, India is far ahead and Pakistan is barely keeping the lights on these days (literally - https://www.bbc.com/news/business-64159460). But Pakistan will have to offer a counter to India somehow.

Question is how? - Will this be through China? At what expense? What other pound of flesh will China extract from Pakistan for that service?
 
I doubt anything will change in this calendar year of 2023.

The BJP are going to go into election mode and their reaction after inevitably losing strongholds like Karnataka and Madhya Pradesh will be interesting, while Pakistan likewise are in a transition phase with the establishment trying to gather which way the wind is blowing at the moment.
 
India invites CJ, FM for SCO meetings
Pakistan has not yet responded to the Indian invite, according to sources

India has invited Chief Justice of Pakistan Umar Atta Bandial and Foreign Minister Bilawal Bhutto Zardari to attend meetings of a key regional forum that also includes Russia and China.

India currently holds the presidency of the Shanghai Cooperation Organisation (SCO) which comprises Russia, China, India, Pakistan, Iran and Central Asian States. As president of the SCO, New Delhi is set to host a series of events, including a conference of the chief justices of member states, meeting of the foreign ministers and a summit in 2023.

The meeting of chief justices of the SCO is scheduled for March while the foreign ministers will meet in May.

Official sources confirmed to The Express Tribune on Monday that India shared the invitations with Pakistan for Chief Justice Umar Atta Bandial and Foreign Minister Bilawal Bhutto Zardari.

It is, however, not clear whether the chief justice and the foreign minister will attend both the events or depute someone to represent Pakistan. Pakistan hasn’t yet responded to the Indian invite, according to sources.

Given the SCO is an important forum because of the presence of China and Russia, Pakistan is unlikely to stay out of the events.

...
https://tribune.com.pk/story/2397403/india-invites-cj-fm-for-sco-meetings
 
Minister of State for Foreign Affairs Hina Rabbani Khar said on Thursday that ever since the incumbent government came to power, there has been no backchannel diplomacy going on between Pakistan and India “untold to the rest of the world”.

“At this moment, there is no such thing under way,” she said during a Senate session.

DAWN
 
Defence Minister Khawaja Muhammad Asif has said that India is providing training to terrorists operating from Afghan borders.

Talking to a private news channel on Tuesday, Asif said that disgruntled Tehreek-e-Taliban Pakistan (TTP) groups have been found operating from areas bordering Afghanistan.

He said that these terrorist groups have reunited from Afghan territory and carried out attacks on police check posts in Pakistan.

"We are suffering because of weak policies of [former prime minister] Imran’s regime," he claimed.

The defence minister further claimed that Pakistan was passing through difficult economic stages due to tough agreements inked with the International Monetary Fund (IMF) by the previous government led by the Pakistan Tehreek-e-Insaf (PTI).
 
If our rich neighbours think that india is very poor country than what benefits will they get with good relations !!!
So relations will remain same
As an Indian i think our priority is in right directions and we still need to work very hard to uplift our people hopefully one day we will be somewhere near to our very rich neighbours
 
There was a great article I read a few years back on comparing india and China by Amartya Sen. He was discussing how China succeed in lifting its people out of poverty and India missed in the same time period. He compared it to a swing , and when the swing moved towards China , China jumped on it and it helped them move forward . India could not get on the swing due to the sheer weight of its out of control population, whereas China had one child policy for over 30 years and they were prepared . He predicts next time the swing come it’s way india will be ready and will do what China did ( I think he predicted in next 20 years time ). India has controlled its population and it will be stable/decline in a few decades . Pakistan population will double by 2050. God help Pakistan .
 
Defence Minister Khawaja Muhammad Asif has said that India is providing training to terrorists operating from Afghan borders.

Talking to a private news channel on Tuesday, Asif said that disgruntled Tehreek-e-Taliban Pakistan (TTP) groups have been found operating from areas bordering Afghanistan.

He said that these terrorist groups have reunited from Afghan territory and carried out attacks on police check posts in Pakistan.

"We are suffering because of weak policies of [former prime minister] Imran’s regime," he claimed.

The defence minister further claimed that Pakistan was passing through difficult economic stages due to tough agreements inked with the International Monetary Fund (IMF) by the previous government led by the Pakistan Tehreek-e-Insaf (PTI).


So India and IK are the reasons for TTP attacks.:))

Why current government has failed in Protecting and providing security to own police/people?
 
Status quo will remain for the foreseeable future, foundational ideologies are at odds and also it keeps getting more polarized because of the rise of political Islam in PK and of political Hinduism in India.
 
India-Pakistan trade stood at USD 1.35 billion during Apr-Dec 2022

New Delhi, Feb 8 (PTI) The bilateral trade between India and Pakistan has increased to USD 1.35 billion during April-December 2022 as against USD 516.36 million in the whole 2021-22, Parliament was informed on Wednesday.

Similarly, the country's trade with China has aggregated at about USD 87 billion during the nine-month period of this fiscal, according to the data provided by Minister of State for Commerce and Industry Anupriya Patel in a written reply to the Lok Sabha.

In 2019, Pakistan suspended bilateral trade with India after New Delhi revoked the special status of Jammu and Kashmir.

The trade with Pakistan stood at USD 329.26 million in 2020-21 and USD 830.58 million in 2019-20, the data showed.

"The government continues to engage pro-actively with SAARC countries to strengthen trade and economic relations. Issues impacting bilateral trade raised by these countries are taken up for an early resolution," she said.

Replying to a separate question on foreign trade data, the minister said that the data are released in three stages -- press release (15th day of the following month); provisional data for 168 principal commodities (25th day of the following month) and the final data on the 45th day of the following month.

She said that the efforts at ensuring data availability with minimal discrepancies is a continuous process.

"The Department of Commerce has taken note of media reports on data discrepancies," she added.

https://www.msn.com/en-in/news/other/india-pakistan-trade-stood-at-usd-1-35-billion-during-apr-dec-2022/ar-AA17frhK
 
12 PAKISTANI FISHERMEN RETURN HOME FROM INDIAN JAIL

Pakistani fishermen, who were released earlier from Indian jail, have reached home via Wagah border crossing, ARY News reported on Thursday.

The 12 fishermen were handed over to Pakistan by Indian authorities at the Wagah border in Lahore. The released fishermen belong to Sindh and Azad Kashmir.

India’s maritime security forces had taken them into custody for allegedly violating their territorial waters.

Pakistan and India swap lists of prisoners in each other’s custody twice a year, on January 1 and 1st July.

Pakistan has a higher rate of freeing Indian prisoners than the Indian rate of freeing Pakistan prisoners, according to the report.

Last year in July, Pakistan had released 20 Indian fishermen detained in the Malir Jail in Karachi.

There are still over 500 Indian prisoners in the Malir jail in Karachi.

ARY
 
Former Director General (DG) of the Inter-Services Public Relations (ISPR), Major General (retd) Athar Abbas, said on Sunday that dialogue with India on levels other than the security establishment’s is “a need of Pakistan”.

He made the remarks during a panel discussion — titled Search for peace and security among neighbours — on the final day of the 14th Karachi Literature Festival held at Karachi’s Beach Luxury Hotel.

Abbas said, “Dialogue is, at present, a need of our country […]. The way forward is not just the state apparatus, because if you leave it [solely] to the security establishment, there will be no move forward. It will be like taking one step forward and two steps backwards.

“There has to be an initiative […] like track II diplomacy, like media, like business and trade organisations, like academia … and they can interact and create their space within Indian society, etc.

“That builds pressure on the [Indian] government [and] state authorities that they must look into what the people are saying. This is a requirement of time that dialogue is a need of Pakistan.”

If met with resistance, he said, Pakistan could also involve “external actors” such as the US and the European Union.

When asked how soon he saw any talks with the neighbours taking place, Gen Abbas said, “You cannot change your neighbour. Eventually, they will have to come to a negotiating table […] even if it feels it is a great power.”

The former DG ISPR remarked that instability in Pakistan would also spill over into India and vice versa, and that “we should not only wait for the establishment” and look towards other options as well.

He said there had been “missed opportunities” in the past by both countries to initiate talks, as he recalled former Indian prime minister Atal Bihari Vajpayee’s bus diplomacy and Gen Musharraf’s Agra initiative“.

Abbas said it would be hard to talk to a state that “is at war with itself”, as he referred to the political rifts rampant in the country.

Separately, foreign relations analyst Michael Kugelman pointed out during the discussion that even though India and Pakistan would always have tensions, the Line of Control has been “relatively quieter” in recent years.

He did not see any improvement between the two countries’ relations in the future, adding, “I think that’s a shame [as] both countries can benefit from economic relations.”

Meanwhile, Dawn columnist Zahid Hussain remarked that while there was no danger of both countries going to war in the current “no peace, no war” situation, neither did he see any improvement in the relations.

Noting that it was the first time that both India and Pakistan had “demoted their diplomatic relations” and there were no talks on any issues, he said the “mood in Pakistan [regarding relations with India] has also changed” recently.

Talking about the US involvement in the region’s politics, Kugelman said Washington desired peace in the region and “certainly better relations between India and Pakistan”.

“The US would prefer to see a region where China is not a dominant power,” he added.

To this, Gen (R) Abbas disagreed, saying, “Experts, here, believe that the US [simply] does not want to see China as the dominant power but at the level of Pakistan, it wants to see a controlled chaos”, referring to the establishment’s concerns regarding US intentions.

Kugelman’s point of view was again different from that of Abbas. He said the US did not desire instability in the region as “Pakistan is a nuclear power and controlled chaos is never far away from [becoming] an uncontrolled chaos.”
 
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