wasim-fan
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Actually India has little to gain from this relationship. India has already de linked itself to large extent and made itself default voice of global south. Nehru's long drawn aspiration.
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How will the India-Pakistan relations shape-up in 2023?
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But difference js that, in pakistan,there was always islam in AtoZ and yes in politics as well. Since country was found on basis of islam, there should not be any need to further the radicalization but most did it for political gain without any real need for it.
In india, a multicultural society , where the very laws are discriminating to the majority(hindus). And have been that way since the independence.
From no right to manage temples or any religious schooling to Creation and handing over 7 lakh properties and land to WAQF in a secular nation in name of allah.
So the case in india is that it started with balancing out the differences and discrimination to the general masses , but yes some have taken more radical route.
Pakistab having the weaker economy since ages has only put more salt to the woulds with rise of religious politics.
Heisenberg111
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China is the leading voice of the Global South, not India.
Mirpuri Don
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You always have something to gain with a nation of +250 million.
If anything it’s a large consumer base for Indian goods that’ll benefit the border states, Punjab in particular with the added cultural and religious tourism on both sides.
The cultural side isn’t limited to Punjab’s, if you look at the yearly Forbes 100, India’s 100 most influential personalities are at 90% from two fields, Bollywood and cricket (10% shared by all the rest put together, from businessmen to chefs), and these two domains are where Pakistanis could have their input, in Bollywood as actors/singers and in cricket obviously through the IPL (notice how no other neighbor of India could have such substantial influence in these specific fields).
And even if you forget all of that, the military disengagement alone would provide the opportunity for the security budgets to be reinvested into more people-friendly economic projects.
India has much to gain with peace even if it has nothing to lose with the status quo either.
There is peace between two countries right now.
captain.hansolo
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as long as a nationalist fascist like modi is in power, expect nothing but belligerence and saber rattling. it was a mixed blessing that the whole misadventure from a year or so back was such a colossal embarrassment that it will prevent further military misadventures.
but expect no shortage of vitriol, especially when it translates into political victories.
but expect no shortage of vitriol, especially when it translates into political victories.
captain.hansolo
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i would not classify china in the global / economic south. they are very much straddling the bridge between the two world and very much a second fulcrum to the united states. outside them, the largest economic powerful in the economic south is india, and thus the defacto voice
China is at the verge of being a developed country barring the XinJiang province on its West. It pretty much has PPP earnings closer to some of the Central European nations and they will only get better over next decade or two.
Mirpuri Don
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I won't call that peace, more the status quo I referred to.
Peace would mean regional economic integration, cultural exchange, mass-scale tourism, etc.
I will prefer the current status quo rather than those promises of bonhomie by politicians and then manipulating during election season
Heisenberg111
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Global South represents the countries of Africa, South America, South Asia and other developing countries of the world. Even though China today is comparatively more developed, it is still regarded as a part of the Global South.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_North_and_Global_South
daytrader
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Pakistan’s future determined by its own actions, choices: Indian FM
Indian Foreign Minister Subrahmanyam Jaishan*kar has said that Pakistan’s future will be largely determined by its own actions and choices and it is for Islamabad to find a way out of its economic troubles.
“I think Pakistan’s future is largely determined by Pakistan’s actions and by Pakistan’s choices. Nobody reaches a difficult situation suddenly and without cause. It is for them to find a way out. Our relationship today is not one where we can be relevant directly to that process,” Jaishankar said in an interview broadcast on Tuesday by the Indian news agency ANI.
His remarks came as Pakistan is trying to revive a stalled IMF loan programme amid economic turmoil.
“If I were, for example, to compare it to Sri Lanka, it is a very different relationship. With Sri Lanka still, there is a lot of goodwill in this country. There is naturally neighbours’ concerns and worry but there is also a feeling look we have to help them to get through this. Tomorrow if something happens to some other neighbours that would be the case as well. But you know what the sentiment is there in the country for Pakistan,” Jaishankar said.
‘China an exception’
He said India had good ties with major global powers barring China, which he said had violated border management agreements, a Reuters report said, quoting ANI.
“India’s relationship with major powers is good. China is an exception because it violated agreements…has a posture at the border as a result we have a counter posture,” he said, referring to India’s military mobilisation and investment in border infrastructure.
India is set to host a meeting of foreign ministers of G-20 on March 1-2. Senior Chin*ese government officials are due to attend.
He said India’s view that the war in Ukraine needed a peaceful solution was shared by many countries. India has kept a neutral stance on the war, declining to blame Russia for the invasion, seeking a diplomatic solution and increasing its purchases of Russia oil over the past year.
DAWN
Indian Foreign Minister Subrahmanyam Jaishan*kar has said that Pakistan’s future will be largely determined by its own actions and choices and it is for Islamabad to find a way out of its economic troubles.
“I think Pakistan’s future is largely determined by Pakistan’s actions and by Pakistan’s choices. Nobody reaches a difficult situation suddenly and without cause. It is for them to find a way out. Our relationship today is not one where we can be relevant directly to that process,” Jaishankar said in an interview broadcast on Tuesday by the Indian news agency ANI.
His remarks came as Pakistan is trying to revive a stalled IMF loan programme amid economic turmoil.
“If I were, for example, to compare it to Sri Lanka, it is a very different relationship. With Sri Lanka still, there is a lot of goodwill in this country. There is naturally neighbours’ concerns and worry but there is also a feeling look we have to help them to get through this. Tomorrow if something happens to some other neighbours that would be the case as well. But you know what the sentiment is there in the country for Pakistan,” Jaishankar said.
‘China an exception’
He said India had good ties with major global powers barring China, which he said had violated border management agreements, a Reuters report said, quoting ANI.
“India’s relationship with major powers is good. China is an exception because it violated agreements…has a posture at the border as a result we have a counter posture,” he said, referring to India’s military mobilisation and investment in border infrastructure.
India is set to host a meeting of foreign ministers of G-20 on March 1-2. Senior Chin*ese government officials are due to attend.
He said India’s view that the war in Ukraine needed a peaceful solution was shared by many countries. India has kept a neutral stance on the war, declining to blame Russia for the invasion, seeking a diplomatic solution and increasing its purchases of Russia oil over the past year.
DAWN
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"If Its Basic Industry Is Terrorism...": External Affairs Minister S Jaishankar On Helping Pakistan
External Affairs Minister S Jaishankar on Thursday virtually dismissed the idea of helping Pakistan to come out of its economic mess.
Speaking at the annual Asia Economic Dialogue organised by the external affairs ministry in Pune, Mr Jaishankar said he will consider the local public sentiment while making a big decision.
"I would have a pulse (on) what do my people feel about it. And I think you know the answer," he said.
Pakistan is grappling with an economic crisis and has not been successful in getting an agreement from multilateral institutions either. In the recent past, India has helped neighbours like Sri Lanka as it struggled to come out of its economic troubles and regularly helps others in the neighbourhood as well.
However, when it comes to Pakistan, the fundamental issue impacting the New Delhi-Islamabad ties is terrorism, Mr Jaishankar said, adding that one must not be in denial of this problem.
"No country is ever going to come out of a difficult situation and become a prosperous power if its basic industry is terrorism.
"Just as a country has to fix its economic issues, a country has to fix its political issues too, a country has to fix its social issues," he said without naming Pakistan.
Mr Jaishankar also made it clear that it is in nobody's interest to see a country get into severe economic difficulties, and that too a neighbour.
Once a country is in the throes of a serious economic problem, it has to make policy choices to get out of it, the career diplomat-turned-politician said, adding that others cannot solve it for the country.
The world can only provide options and support systems, Mr Jaishankar said, making it clear that Pakistan will have to make "tough choices".
He said India has also undergone the same challenges several times in its modern history, with the last one being 30 years ago with the balance of payment crisis.
Meanwhile, Mr Jaishankar said ever since Narendra Modi came to power in 2014, the country's approach to the neighbouring countries has undergone a perceptible change and also reminded all about the Prime Minister's decision to call heads of state for the swearing-in function to start a new relationship.
Citing the case of Maldives, he said India's help in the recent past includes the Greater Male project and also added that he was present at the foundation stone laying event a few weeks ago.
India is also buying or selling power with many of its neighbours, Mr Jaishankar said, adding that it recently started buying power from Nepal.
Going forward, the country is also mulling to up its focus on education and healthcare spending in the neighbourhood, Mr Jaishankar said.
He also assured that India will also be using its G-20 presidency to give a voice to the problems of the 'global south' and asserted that India is the best-placed country to do that.
The prime minister and his top ministers have spoken to 125 countries in the past month in India's effort to be an effective voice of the global south, Jaishankar said.
Speaking at the same event, Maldives' Minister of Finance Ibrahim Ameer said climate finance is a big challenge and expected help to flow through on the commitment at the earliest. His counterpart from Bhutan, Lyonpo Namgay Tshering said an easing of global financial conditions is also the need of the hour.
Mr Jaishankar said there are multiple second and third-order impacts of the major world events and policy decisions, which India will be flagging to the world as part of its G-20 presidency.
The EAM also said that the G-20, with nearly 200 events across the country, is a marketing of India to influential people across the world by exposing them to cultural and socio-economic changes taking place in the country.
NDTV
External Affairs Minister S Jaishankar on Thursday virtually dismissed the idea of helping Pakistan to come out of its economic mess.
Speaking at the annual Asia Economic Dialogue organised by the external affairs ministry in Pune, Mr Jaishankar said he will consider the local public sentiment while making a big decision.
"I would have a pulse (on) what do my people feel about it. And I think you know the answer," he said.
Pakistan is grappling with an economic crisis and has not been successful in getting an agreement from multilateral institutions either. In the recent past, India has helped neighbours like Sri Lanka as it struggled to come out of its economic troubles and regularly helps others in the neighbourhood as well.
However, when it comes to Pakistan, the fundamental issue impacting the New Delhi-Islamabad ties is terrorism, Mr Jaishankar said, adding that one must not be in denial of this problem.
"No country is ever going to come out of a difficult situation and become a prosperous power if its basic industry is terrorism.
"Just as a country has to fix its economic issues, a country has to fix its political issues too, a country has to fix its social issues," he said without naming Pakistan.
Mr Jaishankar also made it clear that it is in nobody's interest to see a country get into severe economic difficulties, and that too a neighbour.
Once a country is in the throes of a serious economic problem, it has to make policy choices to get out of it, the career diplomat-turned-politician said, adding that others cannot solve it for the country.
The world can only provide options and support systems, Mr Jaishankar said, making it clear that Pakistan will have to make "tough choices".
He said India has also undergone the same challenges several times in its modern history, with the last one being 30 years ago with the balance of payment crisis.
Meanwhile, Mr Jaishankar said ever since Narendra Modi came to power in 2014, the country's approach to the neighbouring countries has undergone a perceptible change and also reminded all about the Prime Minister's decision to call heads of state for the swearing-in function to start a new relationship.
Citing the case of Maldives, he said India's help in the recent past includes the Greater Male project and also added that he was present at the foundation stone laying event a few weeks ago.
India is also buying or selling power with many of its neighbours, Mr Jaishankar said, adding that it recently started buying power from Nepal.
Going forward, the country is also mulling to up its focus on education and healthcare spending in the neighbourhood, Mr Jaishankar said.
He also assured that India will also be using its G-20 presidency to give a voice to the problems of the 'global south' and asserted that India is the best-placed country to do that.
The prime minister and his top ministers have spoken to 125 countries in the past month in India's effort to be an effective voice of the global south, Jaishankar said.
Speaking at the same event, Maldives' Minister of Finance Ibrahim Ameer said climate finance is a big challenge and expected help to flow through on the commitment at the earliest. His counterpart from Bhutan, Lyonpo Namgay Tshering said an easing of global financial conditions is also the need of the hour.
Mr Jaishankar said there are multiple second and third-order impacts of the major world events and policy decisions, which India will be flagging to the world as part of its G-20 presidency.
The EAM also said that the G-20, with nearly 200 events across the country, is a marketing of India to influential people across the world by exposing them to cultural and socio-economic changes taking place in the country.
NDTV
I don't remember Pak asking for Indian help. From where I am seeing India should worry about China and its many internal issues like Hindutva terrorism instead of Pakistan. Trying to deflect their issues to Pak will not hide them from the world. I think the recent BBC documentary hammering India has greatly upset them and rightly so.
I have always known that deep down India is absolutely terrified by Pakistan. I absolutely believe that.
I have always known that deep down India is absolutely terrified by Pakistan. I absolutely believe that.
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Hitman
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What has Pakistan done apart from their involvement in terror attacks in India for which they are terrified of them? And don't bring up Abhinandan. Before Abhinandan, 1971 happened.
daytrader
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Well we are a Nuclear power and then there was also Kargil. I don't think India is terrified but there is an element of restrain on their part in fear of things escalating
1947 and 1965 happened before 1971 too. India can keep crying about terrorism. If it makes trouble for Pak in Baluchistan as Ajit Dival admits then we have the right to pay India back with the same coin. India backs the TTP who have been found with Indian made weapons too. Let's not forget Samjhauta Express where Pakistanis were murdered on Indian soil by Hindu fanatics or do you deny that? India is terrified of the ISI that they will continue to punish India for what they do. I have not even mentioned Indian terrorists like Sarbjit Singh or Kulbushan Yadav caught in Pak so don't get me started. You see other then Abhinandan there is plenty that India has to answer for.
wasim-fan
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In 2-3 years I see relations improving. Depends a lot on what establishment in Pakistan think and what India believes it can gain from this relationship. At the moment, it’s clear that Indian strategy is to ignore because they don’t have much to gain. Pakistan is in deep mess that could potentially lead to default. If Pakistan somehow gets through this and gets a clear mandate, there could be open trade between countries.
But at the moment they are on divergent paths. India and Pakistan have their own separate priorities.
But at the moment they are on divergent paths. India and Pakistan have their own separate priorities.
SalimBhai
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Pakistan is about to default and people on here are living in a delusional world. First get your house in order. Then worry about others.
cricketjoshila
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What happened in Kargil? Nawaz Sharif went to USA to get a facesaver? Pakistan army ran away leaving their dead soldiers behind and refused to take them.
Wars are run on money and Pakistan can barely sustain a week.
India's doctrine under Modi is clear, if provoked retaliate with disproportionate conventional force.
msb314
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But that “doctrine” didn’t happen after Operation Swift Retort did it?
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Pakistan has put itself in a bind by trying to become a party to the article 370 debate and then throwing tantrums that no talks with India until it's reinstated. Fact is article 370 debate is over even within Kashmir, whenever talks between 2 countries happen it will be Pakistan who would have to eat its own words.
Any person will be terrified of goons living next door trying to kill their kids.
It may be matter of pride for goons and his gang, but not for the society.
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I agree. This is why the ISI teaches India a lesson due to the thugs it possesses. This can be seen every day with what the RSS are doing. The only way to deal with a violent and fascist country like India is what China is also doing. Occupy their land then build your own houses your own them. Make India and it's people weep repeatedly.
Only fair for Pak to interfere in Indian affairs when they do in our's. Now with the situation boiling again in Indian Punjab the ISI and Pak security forces must become very proactive again. Lovepreet Toofan and Amritpal Singh are rocking India again.
And Pakistan will keep hurting themselves with terrorists which they have themselves harbored over the years.
ISI is now teaching a lesson to Pakistanis also now.
Indians weep and got used to it while ISI making Pakistanis weep day by day with people like you enjoying sorrow of both countries.
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RAW also causes much havoc in India as well. As India is a much bigger country you don't often hear what happens in the furthest parts your country. The many bomb blasts that over the years India has blamed on Pak were orchestrated by RAW.
The ISI had to nurture freedom fighters during the Soviet era to make sure they didn't cross over in to Pak. It was the then Pak government who couldn't demilitarize the minds of these people. That however is a different topic altogether. I am not painting ISI agents as angel's but they do keep RAW in check for sure.
You "forget" to mention all the freedom struggles in India as well. Is that due to RAW or ISI? We know over the past few days Indian Punjab seems to be going back to the 1980's era with the Sikh's storming police stations. I believe in tat for tat for sure. As India causes trouble in Pak I am always delighted to see the same occur next door. Note how Indian's here are always silent on Pak accusations like the Samjhauta Express and Kulbushan Yadav etc.
At least you admit that Pak makes Indian's weep so that is a start.
cricketjoshila
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Why did Pakistan release Abhinandan within 72 hrs?
What was the statement made by Ayaz Sadiq in your national assembly?
People were certainly filled with grief when your lot attacked Mumbai and killed 100s there.
I guess it was a day of joy for you guys.
Keep taking pride in such acts, but ultimately it will bite you back.
Just like Amritpal Singh, Seven sisters and IoK is biting India like a venomous snake. Firstly I don't believe Pak was responsible for 26/11. We all know how Pakistanis were killed on the Samjhauta express by your Hindu nutcases as well as India being responsible for the situation in Baluchistan. Ajit Dival and your other people have spoken about this. You have absolutely no answers to you terrorists Abhinandan, Yadav and Sarbjit Singh, do you? All the while China is beating you up at the border too.
We will continue to hammer you every time you cause trouble in our country. For now I am enjoying seeing your media crying about Amritpal's Khalistan demand's
.Just like Amritpal Singh, Seven sisters and IoK is biting India like a venomous snake. Firstly I don't believe Pak was responsible for 26/11. We all know how Pakistanis were killed on the Samjhauta express by your Hindu nutcases as well as India being responsible for the situation in Baluchistan. Ajit Dival and your other people have spoken about this. You have absolutely no answers to you terrorists Abhinandan, Yadav and Sarbjit Singh, do you? All the while China is beating you up at the border too.
We will continue to hammer you every time you cause trouble in our country. For now I am enjoying seeing your media crying about Amritpal's Khalistan demand's
I know its futile arguing with someone who thinks the WTC demolition was an inside job ( correct me if Iam wrong ) but does it ever occur to you as to the number of Indian terrorists(The RSS kind) listed by UN is exactly zero? Is India under FATF watch or Pakistan? Are bombs going off in India recently or Pakistan that too by people belonging to your own religion ?
The point is how can someone in 2023 with access to internet and ability to obtain information have such a distorted view of the situation ?
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Yes you are right about the WTC tragedy only that hundred's of millions of people including American's themselves agree with me. Do you know why America is genuinely pro Hindu India and anti Pak Muslim? Simply to justify their war's in Muslim countries. They need to counter China by using India too. So are you saying that terrorists are only terrorists if the American's agree? Was the bombing of Iraq and Afghanistan by America not terrorism?
Is there any war going on next door to India like Afghanistan is to Pakistan? No, so there is the answer to your question. We all know who is sponsoring TTP as well. What we have in India is the RSS Hindu terror machine going berserk banning cow slaughter and threatening Muslim's every day as shown in that BBC documentary. You have the situation with China as well Sikh separatists banging on Delhi's door again.
I am afraid you do not have the slightest clue of what the hell you are on about.
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SalimBhai
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Just like Amritpal Singh, Seven sisters and IoK is biting India like a venomous snake. Firstly I don't believe Pak was responsible for 26/11. We all know how Pakistanis were killed on the Samjhauta express by your Hindu nutcases as well as India being responsible for the situation in Baluchistan. Ajit Dival and your other people have spoken about this. You have absolutely no answers to you terrorists Abhinandan, Yadav and Sarbjit Singh, do you? All the while China is beating you up at the border too.
We will continue to hammer you every time you cause trouble in our country. For now I am enjoying seeing your media crying about Amritpal's Khalistan demand's
There is audio of a Pakistani giving step by step instructions? What be i you think that it? The last Pakistani caught from okara . He confesses. What is that.
SalimBhai
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Ttp for l the longest time was controlled by Isi. Just filling in some gaps for you
Absolutely not. to pull off something like that on that same day to coincide with the planes striking the 2 towers requires soo many people in the govt being involved. And to suggest that they have all been bought out to keep silent all because of what ? Makes no sense and is nothing but an insult to the avg american's intelligence.
Do you realize that for the vast majority of the last 75 yrs has been Pakistan's staunch ally even going so far as to help Pakistan against India in wars ?
Name one single action of consequence that has come out of the Quad. Modern alliances are not as cut and dry as you make them out to be. If the UN is America's poodle why has Pakistan not been able to get RSS as the most wanted org considering that US and Pak have been very close allies for a loooong time? Why are your F16's still functioning ?
TTP is a creation of ISI.
Have you found a list of un-provoked acts of violence initiated by RSS yet that i asked you few weeks ago ? Did you notice how the BBC documentary stayed clear of blaming the Godhra train torching on RSS ? Anyhow bump up a relevant thread to discuss Godhra/BBC and I will tell you with proper facts how you are totally wrong.
If I were India, I would prefer not to engage with Pakistan because there is nothing to be gained from Pakistan. Instead, India has all to lose as good relations may mean Pakistan asking India for aid.
India is making commendable strides in science, technology and IT and its citizens abroad are leading top global companies while Pakistan is struggling to feed its population and on the brink of bankruptcy with its reserve dropping to a mere $3 billion - an amount that Ambani used to buy IPL TV rights. What a pathetic state of affairs!
India is making commendable strides in science, technology and IT and its citizens abroad are leading top global companies while Pakistan is struggling to feed its population and on the brink of bankruptcy with its reserve dropping to a mere $3 billion - an amount that Ambani used to buy IPL TV rights. What a pathetic state of affairs!
Those 'citizens' are not Indian but usually citizens of western states, lmao. As usual you like most Indians focus on how a small percent of Indians do instead of the bulk of its population that still lives in impoverished conditions.
They are from India and most are born and educated in Indian schools. Okay, let's consider Indians as a whole. Their export is $650 billion while Pakistan's export is $30 billion. See the the difference? India also leads in literacy and health.
SalimBhai
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most of the Indians leading the Fortune 500 companies had their initial schooling in India.there was a great article on why so many Indians are leading top firms in the USA. The reasons given were ( I forgot the order of importance)
1: The schools back in India
2: Both parents being educated and having work experience
3: Working harder than other groups
Exactly. I hope we can match the quality of Indian education system and the studious nature of Indian students.
It is the same everywhere. Here in Hong Kong, Indians rank much much higher than Pakistanis/ Nepalis/Filipinos and other races in terms of education attainment, household income and overall reputation.
SalimBhai
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Here in the USA Indians are at the very top, but Pakistanis have done very well also.
wasim-fan
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https://www.freepressjournal.in/ind...-troubled-pakistan-if-it-asks-with-pure-heart
RSS is a strange radical organization
RSS is a strange radical organization
wasim-fan
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More than quality, it just prioritization. When they know that only possibility of upward mobility is education.
wasim-fan
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For the the first time in it's history, poverty has been almost eliminated. If they continue to grow 6-7 % they will 5 trillion $ in 5 years and 10 trillion $ in 10 years. I am not sure if we understand the implications of this.
Pakistan was 30% higher GDP per Capita 20 years. Now India is 40% ahead and gap is increasing. Trajectory matters.
Romali_rotti
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Most Pakistanis don't, they are still contemplating on whether the Blasphemy law should abolished or not, or a Pakistani favourite; trying to claim Indian Kashmir.
I have said it many times previously, Pakistan is gone, there is no coming back.... India has already left them in the dust, in another decade the difference may very well be like current Saudi Arabia in comparison to current Somalia or Ethiopia.
Don't think so it's that easy when UP and Bihar which constitutes 25% of Indian population and 150% of Pakistan's population has a per capita GDP which is 40% less than that of Pakistan. These two states will continue to be laggards for foreseeable future, so any means to bump up Indian GDP will be in slow motion in real life given the population of these two states.
How do you know the voice is really of a Pakistani? It could be anyone calling himself a Pak. You really are naive if you believe in such things.
And now they are being controlled by India and being paid by them to attack Pak.
Oh yes there are many websites about 9/11 being fake. Half of the American's reject the official version of ragtag Arab terrorists being responsible for that. https://www.livescience.com/56479-americans-believe-conspiracy-theories.html Yes the American government was absolutely involved no question about it.
Where was America during the 1971 war? They are no ones friends bombing Pak over the past twenty years despite calling us a non NATO ally. You call that friendship. They only have interests not friends.
" Name one single action of consequence that has come out of the Quad. Modern alliances are not as cut and dry as you make them out to be. If the UN is America's poodle why has Pakistan not been able to get RSS as the most wanted org considering that US and Pak have been very close allies for a loooong time? Why are your F16's still functioning ?". Yes they are simple if one has the ability to see beyond the lies and smoke. Once more your Pak-US allies has been answered above. The same reason the UN has not been able to do justice in Indian occupied Kashmir and Palestine. Are you saying the UN wants world peace??!!
The point is the TTP is now being used by India to harm Pak. In the old days we did use them as was required much like your situation with the Sikh's.
Have you found a list of un-provoked acts of violence initiated by RSS yet that i asked you few weeks ago ?. You kidding me here is ample evidence against them for heaven sake. What kind of evidence are you seeking here?. They did mention the train burning saying each party blamed the other if you oaid attention. They went on to say it could have been a pretext to attack Muslim's and how Modi did nothing about it. You see to your type India is always right then how can we have a civil discussion even when they are being exposed by the international media?. You have to be impartial that is simply impossible for you.
Cpt. Rishwat
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You are wasting your time. The only way Indians want to engage with Pakistan is on forums like this where they can brag about their achievements, which just goes to show how low their self esteem really is. If you were that successful, why would you bother telling Pakistanis about it, especially since they claim Pakistan doesn't matter?
shortbread
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Plus, Pakistan can be the conduit through which Indian firms can set up subsidiaries targeting the Chinese markets. It circumvents the trade barriers chinese have in place by taking advantage of the Pak-China relationship. Plus the small and medium scale sector who cater to the more traditional consumers, can take advantage of markets on either side because of the similar culture/tastes. Irrespective of whatever issue, Pakistan's geographical provides massive potential, land access to Iran, Afghanistan and central asia is no small thing.
wasim-fan
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Two questions you could ask. Who has stopped the trade ? Which country granted to the other MFN ( Most favoured nation ) status ? The only way out of this is to follow India-China model. They are at each other's throats literally but they have more than $100bn trade. It is Pakistan's stated position that no trade before India withdraws Article 370 changes. This is not happening. India has basically given a unilateral solution to Kashmir dispute. Its take it or leave it.
Mirpuri Don
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Yes, it's only win-win for India, and in fact I don't think that Pakistan would have embraced China (or that much) if it wasn't rationalized due to tensions with India.
As I said India has nothing to lose with the current status quo (basically keeping LoC without much trouble) but it has everything to gain with peace, with the following regional economic integration and more.
It's not being anti-national to admit that a nation of 250 million can't be ignored.
Not denying that for most of the post-1947, it's Pakistan that has played a negative role.
I'd go as far as saying that even the most radical Hindu nationalists don't have that of a negative view of Pakistan as a whole from my interaction, they have the "they're our lost brothers" type rhetoric you see from RSS chief Mohan Bhagwat, and both BJP PMs genuinely tried to aim for regional peace, both betrayed by Pak few months and even weeks after their gesture.
Only way out is a military dictator forcing it, a bit like Musharraf (himself forced because of 9/11).
In the same way an Indian politician can't risk "appeasement" just before the elections I don't see a civilian leader in Pak either.
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Invert the question.
Out of all stakeholders, who has most to lose by solving this dispute?
Incentive drives the world. Fear of losing is normally a larger factor than potential gains when it comes to human behavior.
Problem here is that India thinks it can tell Pak what to do and how to behave. When the BBC calls out Indian terrorism it is fake but when any international media outlet does Pak it is Gospel truth! Half the American's do not believe in the official 9/11 theory yet we must believe what the mainstream media says. Anything else is "conspiracy theories". They don't understand that America since it's formation has always been at war because it needs it to survive.
America has been bombing Pak for the last twenty years because they are our allies!!. Once more if India ignores Pak grievances then we do so so there's, okay??. Not only must they answer all accusations by Pak but take firm action against the perpetrators. We are told here that despite the RSS regularly making threats against their own Muslim's and Pakistan they are not terrorists!. Indian and Hindu people here ignore how Pakistanis on the Samjhauta Express were burnt alive by Hindu radicals but keep crying about 26/11 due to the victims being their people.
Ajit Doval openly talks about Baluchistan and how he lived under cover in Pak. Despite Kulbushan Yadav and Sarbjit Singh both caught red handed in terrorist activity Indian's here insist they were innocent. Then Indian peoople here must be wondering why million's of Pak's like me hate India so much that I can explode on them!
America has been bombing Pak for the last twenty years because they are our allies!!. Once more if India ignores Pak grievances then we do so so there's, okay??. Not only must they answer all accusations by Pak but take firm action against the perpetrators. We are told here that despite the RSS regularly making threats against their own Muslim's and Pakistan they are not terrorists!. Indian and Hindu people here ignore how Pakistanis on the Samjhauta Express were burnt alive by Hindu radicals but keep crying about 26/11 due to the victims being their people.
Ajit Doval openly talks about Baluchistan and how he lived under cover in Pak. Despite Kulbushan Yadav and Sarbjit Singh both caught red handed in terrorist activity Indian's here insist they were innocent. Then Indian peoople here must be wondering why million's of Pak's like me hate India so much that I can explode on them!
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The RSS regularly make threats to their Muslim's and Pakistan on camera. They want to make India a pure Hindu nation where no non Hindu will be allowed to breathe!. This however is not "terrorism" until America says so! This is the same America that itself has murdered million's of innocent Arab's, African's, Pakistanis and Afghan's who Indian people here say are the judges of what terrorism should be!
RSS Nazi like "Bharat mein rehna hoga toh jai shri ram kehna hoga!" as well as beating up those Muslim's caught with cows this is not oppression or terrorism! Insisting on a nationwide ban on cow slaughter, crying about love jihad yet celebrating when a Hindu man marrying a Muslim girl!
Do Muslim's chant anti Hindu slogans in any majority Muslim country or force them to consume halal meat?. Are Muslim's wanting the "ghar wapsi" of Hindu's to Islam in majority Muslim countries. Do Muslim's threaten Hindu's to chant the kalimah if they want to live and work in Muslim majority countries??. If India is so wonderful then why are their people literally dying to live in the west?? Yeah I know Pak's are dying to reach the west only that we accept our country is a mess unlike the Indian's here.
To improve relations with Pak the India has to stop all off this bias otherwise Muslim's as a whole will have to take out the long handle against them. Not only Pakistan but in all majority Muslim countries. I have had massive rows with Indian people over such issues verbally laying in to them.
RSS Nazi like "Bharat mein rehna hoga toh jai shri ram kehna hoga!" as well as beating up those Muslim's caught with cows this is not oppression or terrorism! Insisting on a nationwide ban on cow slaughter, crying about love jihad yet celebrating when a Hindu man marrying a Muslim girl!
Do Muslim's chant anti Hindu slogans in any majority Muslim country or force them to consume halal meat?. Are Muslim's wanting the "ghar wapsi" of Hindu's to Islam in majority Muslim countries. Do Muslim's threaten Hindu's to chant the kalimah if they want to live and work in Muslim majority countries??. If India is so wonderful then why are their people literally dying to live in the west?? Yeah I know Pak's are dying to reach the west only that we accept our country is a mess unlike the Indian's here.
To improve relations with Pak the India has to stop all off this bias otherwise Muslim's as a whole will have to take out the long handle against them. Not only Pakistan but in all majority Muslim countries. I have had massive rows with Indian people over such issues verbally laying in to them.
[MENTION=142169]PakLFC[/MENTION] I will answer all your allegations/questions but it has to be done on the basis of proper facts and one question at a time. I will keep my responses as short as possible in the interest of time. This will take time so please be patient.
I will start with the bolded question above as I think that can be easily answered/resolved.
In which Muslim majority country do Hindus as a minority do the following things:
1. Demand for a separate Hindu country because they cannot live with the majority Muslims
2. Demand for separate Hindu laws.
3. Indulge in horrific acts of un-provoked violence against the majority.
All of the above have been done by Muslims in India. Let me know in which Muslim majority country that has experienced events that are remotely close to the above three
I will start with the bolded question above as I think that can be easily answered/resolved.
In which Muslim majority country do Hindus as a minority do the following things:
1. Demand for a separate Hindu country because they cannot live with the majority Muslims
2. Demand for separate Hindu laws.
3. Indulge in horrific acts of un-provoked violence against the majority.
All of the above have been done by Muslims in India. Let me know in which Muslim majority country that has experienced events that are remotely close to the above three
Are Indian Muslim's demanding a separate country?. I agree that if your Muslim's are wanting special laws then they need to be corrected if the laws are not against Islamic values. Attacks happen upon majority and minorities in India. Are you saying Muslim's should remain silent when they are targeted by Hindu fanatics. It takes two hands to clap. There are too few Hindu's in Muslim majority countries yet from what I am seeing they are living very happily.
Pakistan and Bangladesh were created out of India. Kashmiri's want similar. Show me a Hindu equivalent to this within a majority Muslim country.
not sure what you mean by this: I agree that if your Muslim's are wanting special laws then they need to be corrected if the laws are not against Islamic values
Again .... in which Islamic country has any Hindu indulged in attacking the majority for any reason ?
This is a factually baseless statement. Pakistan, BD, AFG are notorious for subjugating the minorities.
Pak and Bangladesh were formed out of British India where as India gained independence from them. Hindu's once again are too few in numbers wanting Independence in a majority Muslim country. It is only IoK that is disputed here. Muslim's in mainland India are not demanding independence from India. What part do you disagree with?
Pak-Bharat rivalry aside India gets on very well with all other Muslim countries often better then even Pak does so what's with this self pity? Other then Pak I can't recall any other Muslim majority country that India has a problem with. There is no reason for India to attack any other Muslim country.
Pak, Bang and Afghanistan accept the poor treatment of minorities where as India does not. This despite their being ample evidence against India too. That is the difference that India thinks it is an example in how to treat it's minorities when nothing could be further then the truth. She cries "conspiracy" every time someone shows it the mirror.
rickroll
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Good point!
So what country was Allama Iqbal referring to when he wrote Sare jahan sey accha Hindostan hamara circa 1904 ? Muslims were also proportionally very few compared to Hindus on 15th Aug 1947 look at the situation now just population wise where there are more muslims in India than there are in Pakistan. How do you logically explain the stark contrast ?
You tell me Iam merely answering your original question with proper irrefutable facts.
You have no evidence of un-provoked mass violence from Hindus on Muslims yet. Keep track of this discussion otherwise it becomes tedious. But Hindus have a fantastic track record of going out of their way in ensuring that the minorities are protected. Ask Parsis,Jews,Jains, Buddhists. Between them they are barely 1-2% of Indias population. Have you ever heard of any conflict with them ? And guess where the Parsis originate from and who they were fleeing.
Iqbal was referring to British India prior to their invasion. He then changed his mind later on becoming the instigator of the Pak movement. Muslim's i am told by Hindu fundo's have a larger birth rate. Also it is important to remember that the vast majority did not move to Pakistan after Independence even if they had voted for the new country.
I am not feeling sorry for the state Pak finds iitself in where as you Indian's keep crying over Pak terrorism. When Indian terrorism is challenged there is no answer pending. Why? . You know the usual Pak accusations now don't say tell the American's. We've been through that already.
There is violence every day with houses being bulldozed and Masjids being ransacked. It seems you are looking in the wrong places. From where I am sitting the Christian's, Sikh's and Muslim's are not feeling very safe in India at the moment at all. Under Congress perhaps things were better then Modi takes over and w see his goon's looking for a fight all the time. Not many Jews and Parsis in India neither does the RSS feel challenged by them. It is the Muslim's that seem to bother them the most.
Pak does not claim to be a heaven unlike India. Also remember most Hindu's were in East Pakistan now Bangladesh before you bring that issue up.
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Pakistan on Thursday again denied it was holding any ‘backchannel’ talks with bordering India but reiterated its desire for a peaceful neighbourhood.
“At this stage, there is no back channel [talks] between Pakistan and India,” said Foreign Office spokesperson Mumtaz Zahra Baloch while responding to a question at a weekly briefing.
Relations between the two neighbouring countries have remained at a standstill for the last many years but the real dip came in August 2019 when New Delhi unilaterally revoked the special status of the disputed Kashmir region under its illegal occupation.
Pakistan has not only downgraded diplomatic ties but suspended bilateral trade with India in reaction to New Delhi’s controversial move.
However, there was a chance of a possible thaw in ties when two countries engaged in backchannel talks in 2021.
Express Tribune
“At this stage, there is no back channel [talks] between Pakistan and India,” said Foreign Office spokesperson Mumtaz Zahra Baloch while responding to a question at a weekly briefing.
Relations between the two neighbouring countries have remained at a standstill for the last many years but the real dip came in August 2019 when New Delhi unilaterally revoked the special status of the disputed Kashmir region under its illegal occupation.
Pakistan has not only downgraded diplomatic ties but suspended bilateral trade with India in reaction to New Delhi’s controversial move.
However, there was a chance of a possible thaw in ties when two countries engaged in backchannel talks in 2021.
Express Tribune
Absolutely not. The word Hindustan existed long before the Brits even step foot here.
This is a fact proven by data. So how did the supposedly very radical Hindus allow this to happen ? How is it still happening to this day ? Blows a big hole in your Most hindus today = extremist nonsense.
And this is one of the many root causes of the constant friction. This is completely the fault of our naïve leaders during those times in not enforcing the mandate put forth by Muslim League and voted in favor. Our tolerance became our weakness and now people realize the gravity of the problem when even 75 years later and adopting we find that same fault lines still exist due to the rigid unyielding/un-compromising nature of Muslims
The point is we welcome any and all faiths and respect their beliefs and will go to great extent to ensure that they feel safe. This is completely opposite to what Muslims do.
Because of general intolerance towards polytheist / idol worshipping faiths. The history of India is littered with countless events that testify to this.
Show me events on the scale of Pandit exodus or Genocide of 1971. Has to be un-provoked. What is the worst un-provoked such mass casualty that the world at-large blames RSS as being responsible for ? Your opinion does not count. Has to be some legit source. Post the link and we will discuss that point alone separately.
Those responsible for genocide in East Pakistan were in west Pakistan.
Osama Shafeeqe
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You seem to picking stats and figures from Godi media. Pakistan's hindu population is actually increasing and its increasing at a rate that is greater than the muslim population by percentage. Unfortunately, this is not an indication of good wellbeing but actually the opposite as peoples in poverty on average have more children. This is the same case for Indian Muslims and rather then actually addressing the fact that Muslims in India are growing in ever more harsher and poorer conditions, they start conspiracy theories that are saying that this is a form of Jihad for them to have more children and take over Indias hindu population.
Won't be surprised if India comes out with laws that limit children for a house holds with a low income that would disproportionately effect Muslims households.
Also, please look into the Jammu Massacre of 1947 were RSS are directly responsible for this massacre 20,000 - 100,000 Muslims. Their hate filled ideology is dangerous and I hope that you keep an open mind and understands that most of your history of Muslims is biased and one sided and is reporter in a manner to directly insight anger and hate towards muslims.
There is great tolerance in the Muslim religion that the majority of Muslims believe in. If you actually want to understand the Muslim history than I suggest to you look into the "Constitution of Medina" which set up early relationships between Muslims and non muslims at the time of the Prophet. When Imran Khan first came into office as Prime Minister, he outlined the Constitution of Medina to be a guide on what Pakistan wants to be in terms of it's minorities.
We are talking about India and the point is how did the muslim population get to be soo large if Hindus are being labelled as extremists ? Are you saying Hindu population in Pakistan is also growing at the same cumulative growth rate over the last 7 decades ?
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Everything that happened in and around 1947 has its origins in the divisive politics started by ML. The RSS was not the one that proposed dividing the country.
Why are there hardly any Jews or Zoroastrians in the entire Arab world today? Please lookup what happened to the various Jewish tribes in those times. I do not want to get into that topic here for obvious reasons.
Osama Shafeeqe
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For the last 4 decades, the Hindu population has increased from 1.5% to 2.13% of Pakistans population, this is an increase of 0.63% of the total population and a 42% increase of their population relative to the overall population of Pakistan. Indias increase of Muslim population being 9.8% of the population to 14.2%. This is an increase of 4.4% and a 44% increase of their population relative to the overall population of India.
So in terms of increase of populations, Hindus of Pakistan are increasing at almost the same rate as Muslims in India, relative to the populations in their respective countries.
Also your comment on 1947 is a cop out, there is clear evidence that RSS were the responsible party in this genocide, the Muslims of Jammu were innocent and this was unprovoked massacre against them. It seems that any Muslim attack was totally unprovoked and every Hindu extremist attack has some sort of elaborate justification.
Again, you are choosing to look in a certain direction to justify your point of view without taking into consideration that this was not the norm. Also Jews exist today because Arab and north African countries gave them refuge while they were being massacre in Europe. This not just recent history but from the inception of Islam with Caliphs such as Umar Ibn Khattab returning Jews back into Jerusalem when they were massacred and kicked out by the Christians. Muslims have a long history of tolerance and interfaith mixing but many muslim ruler have also oppressed and persecuted non-muslims and majority of todays scholars will label these activities as un-Islamic persecution.
You seem to be picking and choosing your history to either justify your hate or even justify acts of oppression. I would suggest to please look into religions and history in a more apolitical lense.
I have posted some links below.
you are missing the point ... in 1951 Pak had 3.44% Minorities to today 3.53% as per 2017 census. If you include East Pakistan the situation becomes very grim. Whereas in India the Muslim population has literally multiplied to an extent where they outnumber Pakistan's entire population and in % wise nearly doubled.
link : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Census_in_Pakistan
NYT Article :
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/08/04/..., Hindus,1.6 percent of Pakistan's population.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1947_Jammu_massacres
This tidbit from the wiki article
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p9YcAEYr7Ww&ab_channel=UNWatch
you are missing the point ... in 1951 Pak had 3.44% Minorities to today 3.53% as per 2017 census. If you include East Pakistan the situation becomes very grim. Whereas in India the Muslim population has literally multiplied to an extent where they outnumber Pakistan's entire population and in % wise nearly doubled.
link : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Census_in_Pakistan
NYT Article :
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/08/04/..., Hindus,1.6 percent of Pakistan's population.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1947_Jammu_massacres
This tidbit from the wiki article
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p9YcAEYr7Ww&ab_channel=UNWatch
Osama Shafeeqe
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Hahahaha OMG you used the most fallacious video on the internet. You know where all the Jews are? They are in Israel. 45% of Israel is made up of Arab jews who called themselves Mizrahi Jews. They literally exist because the Muslims that have ruled them for 1600 years allowed them to practice their religion. They only went to Israel because of the creation of Israel created an environment of hate in the Arab world towards Jews because of the genocide of the Palestinian people. (Ironic that this is the same argument you are using for the 1947 Jammu Massacre) Israel offered all Arab jews lands and full citizenship while killing and wiping out Palestinian villages and giving those villages to those Arab jews.
The massacres of Jews in the Arab world was wrong but it was a minute compared to what was happening in Europe. This still is a clear example of an exception to the rule than the rule itself.
My stats were on the hindu population and sensational articles about their plight is not going to change the fact that my stats are correct. You purposely changed the subject to all minorities but this also includes the Christian population in Pakistan which many have migrated to the west. Reality is that the Hindu population is growing at the same rate as the Muslim population in India in terms of percentage of population in comparison the overall percentage of population in their country.
Is Pakistan now faking its Hindu stats? There are hindu leaders in Pakistan that state that the actual number of Hindus is even more than stated.
The muslims of Jammu were innocent, who did they Kill? The RSS directly incited hindus and sikhs to kill innocent people and without their hate mongering, we may not have seen such a massacre as Jammu was not being partitioned but Punjab was. Jammu was relatively peaceful throughout 1947 and it was only the intervention of RSS and Hari Singh that drove these people to violence.
RexRex
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The status quo is fine. Bilateral relations between the two countries are not needed. India has no need for it
However Pakistan badly needs it but their ruling classes don't seem to care about what's best for their public and are happy with enriching themselves from the state coffers while playing the Kashmir game.
However Pakistan badly needs it but their ruling classes don't seem to care about what's best for their public and are happy with enriching themselves from the state coffers while playing the Kashmir game.
wasim-fan
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The current situation is very emblematic. All this talk about India being scared is nothing but tranquilizer to put folks to sleep. There was a time 15 years back when US could not visit India without visiting Pakistan. Now there foreign ministers of 20 countries in India, some of whom are possible funders for Pakistan.
India got dehyphenated from Pakistan. Pakistan got hyphenated with Afghanistan. As much a downgrade as one can imagine.
India got dehyphenated from Pakistan. Pakistan got hyphenated with Afghanistan. As much a downgrade as one can imagine.
I think status quo works fine for Pakistan as well. A stable border allows them to focus on other areas of interest.
It predates formation of Israel in 1948 ... this is a lengthy topic and I do not have the time to discuss it. Lets stick to our neighborhood.
If I only consider Hindus then the situation is even worse in terms of %. And no I did not change the subject, the topic was about how Muslim population has increased in India despite the extremist Hindus. Do you have an answer for that ? Do you disagree that Muslim population growth in % terms faaar exceeeds any Hindu population growth in Pak or BD since 1947 ?
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The violence that occurred around partition was widespread and the only reason for that was ML demand to create a separate nation violently if need be. You cannot look at it as isolated incidents. One thing led to another and over a period of time the entire country was affected by it.
RexRex
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I'm hearing the price of various food items and farm produce in Pak are shooting through the roof, they would benefit massively from trade with India.
Thee word Hindustan was coined by the Mughals therefore Iqbal was talking about the Muslim's. In another poem he speaks of how the whole world belongs to the Muslim's too!
What has a larger Muslim birth rate got to do with Hindu extremism? You are sounding like a radical yourself with your drivel defending your terrorist siblings.
You can call your Gandhi and Nehru whatever you want. To me Jinnah and Iqbal are massive hero's who created history and a country. No, the creation of Pakistan is and was never a problem when Mughal then British India was never one country to begin with. If the two main religious communities of Hindustan seem to have coexisted well prior to independence it was because the British were ruling.
There is ample evidence of Muslim tolerance in countries such as UAE, Malaysia and Morocco where Hindu's flock to in massive numbers. I tell you if these countries where to grant open visa's to Indian's your people would want to settle there in million's. The intolerance in India is due to Hindu extremism not it's Muslim counterpart. I am not accepting your bullsit for a minute here!. Musli's have many extremists in majority Muslim countries, not many in India. They are mostly the victims in India no doubt about it whatsoever.
1971 has nothing to do with it besides you can't compare the genuine was of 1971 to supposedly peaceful times of today. The point is even though India is not officially at war with Pak such things are still happening to your Muslim's. In times of war religious minorities are always targeted as were in 1971. I hope you get my point.
In 1971 Indian soldiers dressed as Pak ones also caused a lot if not most of chaos. There is no way to differentiate a Pak soldier from an Indian one. After the war India and pro independence Bangladeshis blamed everything on Pak soldiers.
Moreover Hindu's and Muslim's coexisted well when the Muslim Mughal's and even Indian Congress were ruling Hindustan/India. This does not mean the creation of Pakistan is a problem or it did not have the right to be formed. In conclusion all this hate of Muslim's in both India and Pak started after Hindu fanatic Modi became PM.
Coexisted well where Mughals destroyed Hindu temples and built mosques on top of that?
Mughals were so poor that they couldn't find buy land to build mosque, so they had no option other than to destroy temples.
Was it you who has avoided this question multiple times about reason for destroying temples?
Glorifying religious violence, conversion and attacks on religious sites is so acceptable to many people on this forum.
I have heard similar arguments with respect to caste discrimination in Bihar. Upper caste people saying that earlier there used to be harmony between lower and upper caste as lower caste faced discrimination silently. Now that they started opposing it, harmony has lost. So, earlier times were better.
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There would be no Hindu temples in India today if the Mughal's had destroyed them seeing how long they ruled. Although the Mughal's were neither devout Muslim's nor religious naturally they did build Masjid's too. Akbar and some other Muslim Mughal men never forced their Hindu wives to convert to Islam.
"Was it you who has avoided this question multiple times about reason for destroying temples?". I don't remember anything about that unless you freshen my mind for an intellectual and convincing reply as usual. If they did destroy some temple's it was not due to the teachings of Islam at all. In a very long period different Mughal's assumed power where some even oppressed and killed the Muslim's. You can not out rightly say all were good or evil.
Once more compadre there would be no Hindu's in India left if they had forced Islam on anyone. Simple common sense for those who have it, ya knows!. What earlier times where better and that? Yeah the Congress were better then the RSS for sure. I know it was Indira Gandhi the PM when the Sikh genocide happened too. In Hinduism caste is part of the fabric among believers. I don't know if your good book or faith endorses it which is a different matter altogether.
There are no ifs and buts in facts.
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