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ICC CT 2017 | Final : India vs Pakistan | 18th June, 2017 | The Oval | Pre-Match Thread

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[MENTION=79064]MMHS[/MENTION] your pak line up for the Oval game and should they bat or bowl first ?

Should DEFINITELY BOWL First - not only that Indian top 3 are in tremendous form, but they are clinically ruthless - if PAK post just about par score, 9 times out of 10, IND will chase that methodically. Biggest advantage for IND is that, they know exactly what they can chase comfortably, hence never under stress bowing first. Yesterday, Kohli brought Jadhav & allowed him to go for wickets, because he knew the game was still in his hand as long as the target is below 343 (random number I picked a day before if we were to defend, but it was almost precise).

I think, PAK has only chance is to knock 3/4 Indian wickets, before 35th, over otherwise bat or bowl first they'll reach close to 330 - a score PAK can't post batting first, neither would chase. Therefore, I won't go for any "all-rounders" - if 6 batsmen can't do, couple of all-rounders won't help either - it has to be 50 overs of wicket taking threat & then back 6 players to do the bulk of chasing anything under 300. My starting XI

1. Azhar (can't help, but given option, I won't ever play him in ODI)
2. Fakhar
3. Babar
4. MoHa
5. Malik
6. Sarf
7. Shadab
8. Amir
9. Hasan
10. Raees
11. JK

One thing for sure, I have hardly ever seen Indian team picking wrong XI - their home work was perfect even in 1979 WC. After Jadhav's bowling, I am almost certain that Umesh will replace Ashwin - the only change I expect, if so. However, PAK's batting is probably 90% dependent on a quickfire start from Fakhar, who had never faced Ashwin before, therefore it might happen that IND also might go for a bowling depth & drop Pandeya for Umesh.

PAK has to bat 2nd to have a close contest. Last 2 UK final (1999 WC & 2001 tri Series Final), PAK Captain decided to test their opener's skill against AUS at a Lord's morning final - it ended in embarrassment both times. It might end in bigger embarrassment, if Sarfraz opts to bat first again (that's if he wins toss).
 
Should DEFINITELY BOWL First - not only that Indian top 3 are in tremendous form, but they are clinically ruthless - if PAK post just about par score, 9 times out of 10, IND will chase that methodically. Biggest advantage for IND is that, they know exactly what they can chase comfortably, hence never under stress bowing first. Yesterday, Kohli brought Jadhav & allowed him to go for wickets, because he knew the game was still in his hand as long as the target is below 343 (random number I picked a day before if we were to defend, but it was almost precise).

I think, PAK has only chance is to knock 3/4 Indian wickets, before 35th, over otherwise bat or bowl first they'll reach close to 330 - a score PAK can't post batting first, neither would chase. Therefore, I won't go for any "all-rounders" - if 6 batsmen can't do, couple of all-rounders won't help either - it has to be 50 overs of wicket taking threat & then back 6 players to do the bulk of chasing anything under 300. My starting XI

1. Azhar (can't help, but given option, I won't ever play him in ODI)
2. Fakhar
3. Babar
4. MoHa
5. Malik
6. Sarf
7. Shadab
8. Amir
9. Hasan
10. Raees
11. JK

One thing for sure, I have hardly ever seen Indian team picking wrong XI - their home work was perfect even in 1979 WC. After Jadhav's bowling, I am almost certain that Umesh will replace Ashwin - the only change I expect, if so. However, PAK's batting is probably 90% dependent on a quickfire start from Fakhar, who had never faced Ashwin before, therefore it might happen that IND also might go for a bowling depth & drop Pandeya for Umesh.

PAK has to bat 2nd to have a close contest. Last 2 UK final (1999 WC & 2001 tri Series Final), PAK Captain decided to test their opener's skill against AUS at a Lord's morning final - it ended in embarrassment both times. It might end in bigger embarrassment, if Sarfraz opts to bat first again (that's if he wins toss).

5 full bowlers. Teams play with 3 full bowlers these days. I guarantee that won't be the team. If it is we have NO chance.

Faheem is a must. He is a finisher who we are in dire needs of.
 
Should DEFINITELY BOWL First - not only that Indian top 3 are in tremendous form, but they are clinically ruthless - if PAK post just about par score, 9 times out of 10, IND will chase that methodically. Biggest advantage for IND is that, they know exactly what they can chase comfortably, hence never under stress bowing first. Yesterday, Kohli brought Jadhav & allowed him to go for wickets, because he knew the game was still in his hand as long as the target is below 343 (random number I picked a day before if we were to defend, but it was almost precise).

I think, PAK has only chance is to knock 3/4 Indian wickets, before 35th, over otherwise bat or bowl first they'll reach close to 330 - a score PAK can't post batting first, neither would chase. Therefore, I won't go for any "all-rounders" - if 6 batsmen can't do, couple of all-rounders won't help either - it has to be 50 overs of wicket taking threat & then back 6 players to do the bulk of chasing anything under 300. My starting XI

1. Azhar (can't help, but given option, I won't ever play him in ODI)
2. Fakhar
3. Babar
4. MoHa
5. Malik
6. Sarf
7. Shadab
8. Amir
9. Hasan
10. Raees
11. JK

One thing for sure, I have hardly ever seen Indian team picking wrong XI - their home work was perfect even in 1979 WC. After Jadhav's bowling, I am almost certain that Umesh will replace Ashwin - the only change I expect, if so. However, PAK's batting is probably 90% dependent on a quickfire start from Fakhar, who had never faced Ashwin before, therefore it might happen that IND also might go for a bowling depth & drop Pandeya for Umesh.

PAK has to bat 2nd to have a close contest. Last 2 UK final (1999 WC & 2001 tri Series Final), PAK Captain decided to test their opener's skill against AUS at a Lord's morning final - it ended in embarrassment both times. It might end in bigger embarrassment, if Sarfraz opts to bat first again (that's if he wins toss).

You picked shadab over imad. Any particular reason?
 


This is India's fate. Amir Khan represents Pakistan, underdog, not given a chance, uber aggressive. Jewish Dimitri Salita represents India, support from everyone, crowd in his corner.


COWERING IN THE CORNER, MORE PUNCHES RAINING IN


:aag: :aag :aag:
 
You picked shadab over imad. Any particular reason?

Leg spinner, can get set batsman out - can go for 80 as well, but for that MoHa is there for cover. From Imad, you might get steady 10 overs for 60, but he'll hardly take any wicket between over No. 15 to 45.

It's a game of 10 wickets, particularly top 3 (For PAK top 4, even in 2023, if he is involved, UV'll trouble PAK either with bat or ball - some teams are boggy for some players) & PAK should give it's best chances to get at least 2 of top 4 cheaply. These are not Fakhar that they'll run out of steam after quick fire 35 - if any two of them stays over 35 balls, almost certainly you'll see one, if not 2 centuries, which (big partnership) is ultimate in ODI. Quickfire 50-60 from Sharjeel didn't win PAK a single meaningful ODI, but a steady 134 of 127 from any of top 3 is what wins such big matches - one has to plan to get wickets against IND, trying to contain will end like horror show of 4th June. With bat, don't think Imad will contribute more than Raees or Hasan & he has declined alarmingly in field.

Overall, a mediocre, very much limited cricketer who is found out at a higher domain than his level. Imad for No. 8/9 ranked team was a great value for money - Imad for a CT finalist is just too ordinary to make any impact.
 
I can predict a failure for Dhawan, a quick 40 for Rohit, a missed chance for Kohli.

Amir
Junaid
Raees
Hasan
Shadab

Only issue with Raees will be when to bowl him. 4 overs from 9-20 and 3 from 34-40. And 2-3 in last 6.
 
Batting will remain brittle, no matter if you play Haris, Shehzad and Faheem in place of Junaid, Hasan and Amir. Forget about batting and don't compromise bowling at Pretext of strengthening the batting.

I think you have got the Playing XI right.
Bro Haris is the 3rd best ODI batsman to come out after Miandad and Babar, he will surely strengthen the line up
 
Bro Haris is the 3rd best ODI batsman to come out after Miandad and Babar, he will surely strengthen the line up

They can play Inzi, Babar, Miandad and Haris in one team and still batting will remain brittle. Cornered.

In bowling, PCT sees an opening and try to seize the moment hence gain momentum. It's 180 degree wrt what PCT does when batting. It will never change.
 
In a rather simplistic analysis , of course cricket matches could always get more complex, I see only two possibilities ...on the toss...ok let's say Pakistan wins the toss and under this we have scenario 1 Pakistan batting and India chasing or scenario 2 Pakistan opting to chase.

Or scenario 3 India wins toss and opts to field ( same as option 1) or scenario 4 is India opts to bat and Pakistan chases ..same as scenario 2...I am saying this separately to just analyse what probability either side has for a better favorable situation.

Pakistan has a very good bowling attack ..only fast bowling, it's spin is no big deal..clearly Pakistan's stronger suit is it's bowling. And historically it's batting , even better lineups against lesser Indian bowling has folded up badly. So ideally it's a question of when , of given the choice, Pakistan would like to utilise it's stronger hand ...first ...and get India to maybe 30-3, contain to a score less than 260 and then chase it down ? Probably a good idea ..but ..with Pakistan's batting...it depends on Fakhar getting it a flying start , with maybe Babar playing through the major part of the innings...and with Malik or Azhar Ali or Sarfraz have at least 2 partnerships of 70-80 plus in the top 4 wickets ..but what happens if either or both fail or don't click in any major way ( less than 30 etc) ...can Pakistan recover from say 90-3 to get 260 odd to win ? I doubt it.

On the other hand if Pakistan doesn't get India to 30-2 or 40-3 in the first 15 overs of bowling, I can promise you that either Rohit Sharma or Kohli will be well on the way to a 100 , and with the likes of Yuvraj , Dhoni , and late order hitters like Jadhav and Pandey, India will pile on 300 if they get to 110 for 1 or 2 wkts by 20 overs. I'm sure Pakistan won't want this scenario, as they would be played out of the game ..batted out ..and facing a chase of 300 odd in a major cup final ..Pakistan with it's unpredictable batting can well lose the game in any 20 minute stretch through the innings, losing 2 or 3 wkts.

But from India's point of view, they may toy with the idea of fielding if they win toss, hoping that Bhuvi or Bumrah make early strikes , ensuring Pakistan doesnt set anything more than 250 odd for a chase, which India , even If jolted at the top, could well chase down comfortably , given it's depth of batting and many seasoned veteran players who have seen countless chases successfully in big matches..
The experience...the depth and the batting power of India.

But if India opts to bat, it's more interesting ...if they see off the first 10 overs ..even with just 4 r.p.o ...Pakistan will get increasingly desperate ...and face the possibility of a 300 plus chase ...although Pakistan bowling is very very good , I have observed that lack of early success breaks them, or if someone in the top order takes apart a major bowler ( eg Umar Gul by Sehwag in Mohali )..the Pakistani bowling , although v good , lacks comeback ability due to lack of experience..and India being a seasoned team will pile it on , and with Pakistan's fielding hardly anything to brag about, it will fall apart.

So India has many ways of winning the game, but Pakistan , even in all it's losses to India , has come even close only by chasing ..or to take the game into the last 5 overs. So apart from the Toss, what both the teams will analyse and opt for will become very important.

Personally I think if Pakistan should win toss it should field and try to get the match by the collar in the first 10 overs.

And I think if India wins toss, it should also opt to bat first, get past the first 10 overs with minimum loss, and bat Pakistan out of the game by posting 300 plus, which I seriously doubt that Pakistan will come within 40 runs of.
 
Positives for Pak is that there will be no Wahab Riaz that is a massive plus. He would have probably played had he been fit. The inclusion of Fakhar has also rallied the team giving it a new sense of hope. Fielding has definitely improved as the tournament has progressed as has the batting. I feel we have to get their top four out with the total being under 150 otherwise they can bat us out again. Rohit, Kohli, Yuvraj and Dhawan must not be allowed to settle down or score freely. Assuming it is a sunny day and Pak wins the toss they should bat first, no doubt. Batting second in a major final adds 20% more pressure even on a great batting side. Just hope that Amir is fit for Sunday.
 
INDIA INDIAAA

Those are the words that will be echoed around the stadium as Virat Kholi lifts the champions trophy
 
Should Faheem Ashraf Play vs India in CT Final?

On a high scoring pitch we desperately need a slogger and a finisher. IMO if Faheem does not play we will lose most likely.
 
Law of Momentum
winning team gets momentum and losing team loses momentum and also with the passage of time :kohli
so much time left for the final:broad
 
Batting is far too weak and one dimensional to leave Fahim out.

Can't score big with Azhar, Malik and Hafeez.
 
Can someone tell me why it's hard to find highlights of the 2 semi finals? I want to watch
 
Fahim has to feature no matter what, hence him for Shadab has to happen.

As for Amir, it is too risky and dangerous because if he breaks down again (like last time), then Pak are guaranteed a loss.

Only way to squeeze in Amir, if all of the 4 pacers play.

For me, azhar would have to go if Amir has to play.
 
Amid for Imad is the only change I would make. Azhar will play even if we don't want him to.

I think we should chase, knowing what we will have to score will at least mean if it's a 300 plus score out batsmen will have to show intent. Batting 1st we will do our usual tuk tuk nonsense.

Bowling 1st we must look to take wickets, Indian top 3 is going to look to set a platform, so to counter that we must be on the attack and look for wickets. If Rohit and Dhwaan get set they could take the game away from Pakistan. Indian middle order of Yuvi,MSD,and Jahdav isn't convincing and can be got at.

Seems as though it's a batting pitch, think we can win but it will be difficult. Must look for wickets in the 1st 10 overs.If Pakistan go with another containment job,the game will be a repeat of June 4th.
 
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This is India's fate. Amir Khan represents Pakistan, underdog, not given a chance, uber aggressive. Jewish Dimitri Salita represents India, support from everyone, crowd in his corner.


COWERING IN THE CORNER, MORE PUNCHES RAINING IN


:aag: :aag :aag:

Does he have a chin or should we call canelo again :afridi
 
I am going to have to console some of my Pakistani brothers on the forum after sundays Father's Day special match. Will have free tissue papers, and a shoulder to lean on.
[MENTION=131701]Mamoon[/MENTION] [MENTION=138254]Syed1[/MENTION] [MENTION=53290]Markhor[/MENTION] [MENTION=136729]Suleiman[/MENTION]

Be proud of your boys for coming this far, you should have a better chance in the 2019 World Cup as harris will be a mainstay, without any senior cancer in team.

Jai Hind
 
Please make the batting line up stronger by adding harris sohail in the line up as he will bring us lots of stability in middle over. Drop imad wasim instead. We will still have plenty of options with the ball. Hafeez shadab and malik can bowl us 20 to 25 overs in needed then we have three pacers in junaid, amir and hassan ali. Good bowling line up with strength in batting with harris playing. Please management & captain safi select him. Inshallah we will win no matter what the final line up be. Pakistan zindabad
 
[Media Reports] Pakistan team has two changes vs India for Champions Trophy Final match this Sunday

Mohammad Amir and Fahim Ashraf will play match vs India, Pakistan team will field following players for upcoming final match vs India

1. Fakhir
2. Azhar
3. Babar
4 Hafeez
5 Malik
6 Sarfraz
7 Imad
8 Fahim
9. Amir
10.Hassan
11.Junaid
 
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Good team. India should start digging their graves.
 
When is Sarfaraz going to promote himself up the order. Hafeez has no business being #4. Other than that, hope the batting clicks again like the England game.
 
Decent XI (if true).

You can split 20 overs between Fahim, Imad, Hafeez, and Malik depending on who is doing well and who isn't on Sunday.
 
I don't understand the fascination with Imad Wasim. Was arguably the worst performer after Wahab in the group match and his fielding has been an absolute joke.
 
faheem is not a bowler to bowl to indian team, maybe to srilanka but not india

would not drop shadab for fahim whem amir is already replacing rumman
 
My XI
1. Azhar
2. Fakhar
3. Babar
4. Malik
5. Sarfraz
6. Haris
7. Fahim
8. Amir
9. Hasan
10. Raees
11. Junaid
 
Not playing Shadab will be a bad call. Imad should be the one getting the chop instead.

However Fahim is a must.
 
I don't understand the fascination with Imad Wasim. Was arguably the worst performer after Wahab in the group match and his fielding has been an absolute joke.

I agree.

I think the captain and coach simply feel secure having him at #7 since he's always been a competent List A/ODI batsman.
 
pak should go with
amir
juni
fahim/raees
shadab
imad/haris ( if raeese selected insted fahim then haris shoud play instead imad)
 
we need to think out of the box if we going to play imad. he wont be useful down the order so send him when fakhar gets out and be given free hand to go hard. its a gamble worth taking. I personally want amir for imad
 
I´d a dream on Thursday night that one team has set the other a target of 316. The dream wasn´t clear on as to whether it was chased down or defended safely, or which team of the two it actually was. So you see, even the Force that controls dreams knows that the real fun of an Indo-Pak match lies in the drama unfolding on the day. :D

We can discuss it all that we want to, but ultimately, in an Indo-Pak match, it has always come down to which team handles the pressure of expectations and of the huge crowd better. This is something that we can see best in how a team fields, on most occasions at least.

Such games and the Shaky Legs Syndrome go hand in hand. This mind you is all about getting the feel of things, getting a feel of the occasion and the atmosphere on the given day. Therefore, the first 10-15 overs go a long way in settling that, a long way. For Pakistan, if they bat first and apply themselves calmly the initial overs, the jitters will begin to ease up and breathing will become easier, as of course early wickets will do if they bowl first. Here´s something important: if India bat first and go slowly in the first 15-20 overs but don´t lose many wickets, Pakistan bowlers will begin to get frustrated.

For India, it might be bit of a concern that their batsmen after the openers and Kohli haven´t had too many opportunities to bat. The likes of Yuvraj and Dhoni have an experience of years as we know, but you still never know, keeping in mind of course also the inexperience of Jadhav and Hardik.

Whether to bat first or to bowl first will remain a dilemma for both captains, regardless of the pitch and the conditions on the day, and deep down, both captains might well be wishing not to win the toss at all. :))
 
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Is it worth considering Imad Wasim over Faheem Ashraf due to his one directional bowling?

His ball doesn't spin at all. Plus, Indians are super comfy batting against spinners.

Your thoughts?
 
We have to stop accommodating passengers like Hafeez. He can restrict runs a bit but we have plenty of others who can do a similar job but actually have ability with bat.

Why not bring Haris or Fahim in or even just promote Sarfraz up the order bringing in the extra bowling option or bowling all-rounder?

Azhar
Fakhar
Babar
Sarfraz
Malik
Imad
Shadab/Fahim (depending on conditions)
Rumman
Amir
Hassan
Junaid

Ultimately it's only our bowlers who can set up a win here. We're not primed to set or chase 300+. That is a formidable and in-form seam attack on each end and offers solid spin options to restrict the flow of runs too. We can stop this Indian side with the right application as we've shown in our last three matches. Hopefully we have some assistance from the pitch as well.

Come on Pakistan!
 
I think one of the premier bowler between junaid or amir will not play due to physical reasons.

Hassan will play to get tonked. Shahdab will perform

Among batters pak seniors will perform but not the newbies.
 
he has scored only 4 runns in CT and his darts aren't going to trouble indians so it will be foolish not to play fahim who is a very good batsman and can do some hitting also
 
As I have written in my thread, I have a feeling they are concerned about Ashraf's fielding- he has dropped two crucial (and fairly straightforward) chances.
 
I don't think it matters at this point the XI which will be fielded.
 
Imad is the designated person to rough up the ball, without Imad there will be no reverse swing which Amir/Hasan/Junaid have used to demolish sides.
 
This promo from ICC's twitter gives goosebumps!

<blockquote class="twitter-video" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Pakistan &#55356;&#56821;&#55356;&#56816; v India &#55356;&#56814;&#55356;&#56819;<br><br>Old foes meet once again for the final clash of <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/CT17?src=hash">#CT17</a> &#55357;&#56394;<br><br>Who will you be supporting? <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/PAKvIND?src=hash">#PAKvIND</a> <a href="https://t.co/l35nbeML9A">pic.twitter.com/l35nbeML9A</a></p>— ICC (@ICC) <a href="https://twitter.com/ICC/status/875533413490413568">June 16, 2017</a></blockquote> <script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
 
India win toss, elect to field first
Pakistan 298-7
Babar ( 84 )
Zaman ( 59 )
Fahim ( 42 )
Bumrah: 3-45
Jadeja: 2-56
India: 240
Dhoni ( 58 )
Rohit ( 55 )
Dhawan ( 51 )
Hasan: 4-46
Junaid: 3-58
Shadab: 2-52
Wow. 298. Wow
 
Scattered showers predicted for tomorrow.

Think which ever team wins the toss is gonna bowl first.
 
MS Dhoni with Sarfraz Ahmed's baby on the eve of the game in the hotel lounge. Seems like the players were together.


image.jpg:
 
if Pakistan wins the toss OR if India wins the toss this Sunday's final .....

Which team will bat/bowl first?
 
My team combinations for tomorrow

Fakhar
Azhar
Babar
Hafeez
Malik
Sarfraz
Imad
Faheem
Amir
Hasan
Junaid

Or

Fakhar
Azhar
Babar
Hafeez
Haris
Malik
Sarfraz
Imad
Amir
Hasan
Junaid

If Amir has to play then Rumman Raees misses out even though I thought he was pretty impressive. The key is for Pak to bat deep. They have enough bowling options.
 
i will say it again its a big blunder to drop rumman raees just to accomodate muhammad amir and prefer imad for shadab

but the time will tell if imad and amir proves the expectations of their management
 
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A hard match and Pakistan victory will be great for cricket

I am technically an India supporter but above all I want a gripping match - not like the semifinals. I actually would love it if Pakistan wins after a tough match - will be great for world cricket. Here is a country which cannot play international cricket - I wonder how many countries can have such a handicap and still showcase talent the way Pakistan does.

The world needs a strong Pakistan, West Indies, Sri Lanka and Bangladesh team
- every result which helps that, I welcome.
 
Amir and Fahim are playing for Raees and Immad(bold move), both are correct moves. If Amir is not 100% he should not play, otherwise he is no brainer.

Wicket will be belter, we need wicket taking bowlers (Amir, Junaid, Hasan, Shahab) and batting all rounder aka Fahim. Containing all rounder (Immad) will not be useful.
 
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