If Pant, Gill, Sundar, Siraj etc were in the Pakistan team, would they have flourished?

[Nikhhil98]

Just would.love to see my fellow cross border brothers reactions

Would Gill and Pant have developed this mentality and jazbah at such an early age ?

What about Siraj and Sundar as Pakistanis are traditionally well know to produce loads of skilful.bowlers ?

Also if given an option , would Ppers accomodate say a Pant in their team in place of Rizwan or Sundar for Shadaab or say a Gill for maybe Azhar Ali ....or say swap a Shashtri or Bharat Arun with Misbah or Waqar as a coach ?

 

[Thunderbolt14]

No. If we had the system to produce the likes of Gill, we would already be producing the likes of Gill. We don’t have the system.

Maybe we can revisit this thread in 10 years, as I hope some of the changes being made take root by then.

 

[Mamoon]

Yes.

Pant and Gill are more talented than anyone Pakistan have ever had in their respective positions/roles.

Washington is better than Shadab.

Siraj is better than all our current pacers barring Shaheen.

The gulf between the talents of the two sides is also massive in addition to the difference in coaching, team environment etc.

 

[Nikhhil98]

I did not much think high of Gill myself , though i am an Indian ..but his first knock and especially todays gutsy inings made me bite my own tongue !! Reminded me of Kohli when he was young , no fear cricket ....even kohli wasnt ao good when he started ...if this guy gets proper training and backing , me thinks he can surpass King K

 

[Kroll]

No, Misbah would kick them all out after one or two tests and replace them with 35 year olds and maybe one 16 year old.

 

[hoshiarpurexpress]

lets see..

Gill : After 3 centuries in QEA would have been debuted straight away.
Pant : Would be opening the team in ODI and T20.

Siraj would have blossomed along with Shaheen i think.

Sundar, again the lad has good temperament so would have been picked and backed.

 

[hoshiarpurexpress]

I did not much think high of Gill myself , though i am an Indian ..but his first knock and especially todays gutsy inings made me bite my own tongue !! Reminded me of Kohli when he was young , no fear cricket ....even kohli wasnt ao good when he started ...if this guy gets proper training and backing , me thinks he can surpass King K

Gill is much better then Kohli when Kohli started.
But Kohli became beast. Hopefully Gill stays the same and keeps on improving.

 

[Shafi]

Did we ever produce Pant of Gill type of batsmen? We just don't have the talent. But we can produce good quality bowlers with proper system.

 

[spiderreddy]

I don't think 137kph Siraj would have flourished in Pakistan as they have 150 kph Naseems and Musas

 

[Shafi]

Yes.

Pant and Gill are more talented than anyone Pakistan have ever had in their respective positions/roles.

Washington is better than Shadab.

Siraj is better than all our current pacers barring Shaheen.

The gulf between the talents of the two sides is also massive in addition to the difference in coaching, team environment etc.

Exactly!!! Even players like Saeed Anwar, Inzamam, Miandad, Zaheer Abbas, Hanif Mohammad cannot play this type of classic innings in Australia under pressure and win matches.
Siraj is better than robot Waqar.

 

[Gullycricket]

We are terrible at managing talents. I am amazed at Siraj who has transformed so much along with Thakur. Our bowlers on the other hand are regressing. Less said about the batsman the better.

 

[Geil]

What Pak Cricket lacks is the planning and execution at every level of their International Cricket system be it from identifying the young talent and then backing their players when there are not performing to the tactics and mindset the playing eleven shows on the field

Which is why when u watch the Pak cricket team play they look clueless when they bat or bowl in situations which are challenging or even normal due to which they lack self-confidence in their mindset

I think Pak cricket has all the skills to deliver and be atleast in the top 4 cricket team if not the top 2 but the culture and the set-up of current and past Pak cricket team have repeatedly failed to perform at consistent period and been a mid ranked to lowest ranked team consistently with exceptional few performances and achievement here and there in the last two decades which shows they have the skills to be in the top 4 ranked team but the system or set up have failed them to be a consistent top 4 ranked team at the vert least.

Where as Indian team has all the right ingredients in their International Cricket system and setup which enables them to be at the top ranked team even after experiencing criticization since 2011 WC win and failing to win WCs after qualifying in multiple SFs or even test series in some overseas tours

Even after all that experience Indian Cricket team has been consistently been the top ranked team and competing well at the very least if not winning it in almost every if not all situations and conditions

 

[Shafi]

We are terrible at managing talents. I am amazed at Siraj who has transformed so much along with Thakur. Our bowlers on the other hand are regressing. Less said about the batsman the better.

Lack of proper talent and useless coaches.Cricket is advance so much and we are still in 90s. We are 30+ years behind from top teams. Thanks to PCB for appointing parchi coaches in domestics and international, plus selection of players based on favoritism.

 

[Babbar]

It’s not an issue of talent but managing and grooming it. There seems to be no good system of graded progression in Pakistan.

Imran Khan legacy of picking unknown talent and instantly honing them into diamonds is still alive in Pakistan, PCB as well as its fans. That’s why you get Naseems and Shaheens, who are at most as good as India’s T19 bowlers from the same year, fast-tracked in first XI without them going through the rigor that most India or Aus young hopefuls go through.

However, Imran is borne once is a century. If Misbah or Waqar thinks that they also pick and groom talent the same way, then it’s a recipe for disaster. But somehow Pak fans too love this teenager gladiator myth.

Pakistan really needs Gills and Sundars (not so much Pant) who are aggressive but composed. I don’t think Pak will ever like a Pujara in its team. He would have been probably a bus conductor somewhere in Multan.

Even Siraj won’t flourish in Pak as he needs a very supporting environment, from the likes of Bumrah, Kohli and Shami, to gain confidence.

 

[TNAmarkFromIndia]

Pakistan already had a Rishabh Pant.

 

[jnaveen1980]

I still cannot believe how far Sundar has come. I didn't follow the IPL this season. He looked unruffled on day 5 Gabba against world no.1 bowler.

 

[Indiafan]

One thing I would like to point out. Pakistan took the likes of Shaheen, Naseem and just dropped them in the middle. It was clear they were on their own, they were clearly just asked to go out and bowl. Use their own brains with maybe captain guiding them

Meanwhile there was obviously an whole appartus behind Indian bowlers. Plans were devised for each batsman, bowlers were instructed where to bowl, fields were set. Even the debut bowlers never felt on their own, you could see they felt that the entire weight of the management was behind them

Even while batting, there were clear plans in last test and here. Batsmen knew their roles, when to attack, which session to slow down. There was no confusion. Last test it looked like we were losing to batsmen were asked to drop anchor. Here there was a plan to keep attacking as long as we were not likely to lose

Such clarity really helps youngsters. There is no way Thakur or Natarajan or Siraj leads an attack on their own. But with Naseem it seemed clear no one had discussed his role and where to bowl

 

[Indiafan]

Pakistan already had a Rishabh Pant.

No way Afridi would have played for a 100 ball 50 before cutting lose

 

[Shafi]

It’s not an issue of talent but managing and grooming it. There seems to be no good system of graded progression in Pakistan.

Imran Khan legacy of picking unknown talent and instantly honing them into diamonds is still alive in Pakistan, PCB as well as its fans. That’s why you get Naseems and Shaheens, who are at most as good as India’s T19 bowlers from the same year, fast-tracked in first XI without them going through the rigor that most India or Aus young hopefuls go through.

However, Imran is borne once is a century. If Misbah or Waqar thinks that they also pick and groom talent the same way, then it’s a recipe for disaster. But somehow Pak fans too love this teenager gladiator myth.

Pakistan really needs Gills and Sundars (not so much Pant) who are aggressive but composed. I don’t think Pak will ever like a Pujara in its team. He would have been probably a bus conductor somewhere in Multan.

Even Siraj won’t flourish in Pak as he needs a very supporting environment, from the likes of Bumrah, Kohli and Shami, to gain confidence.

Without talent a player will bound to fail. Otherwise all the tycoons' children would be most successful people.

 

[Junaids]

Fourth Test
India:
8 players aged 21-29
3 players aged over 30, oldest player 33

Australia:
4 players aged 21-29
7 players aged over 30, oldest player 36

The younger India’s team got this series, the better their results got.

 

[pillionrider]

Fourth Test
India:
8 players aged 21-29
3 players aged over 30, oldest player 33

Australia:
4 players aged 21-29
7 players aged over 30, oldest player 36

The younger India’s team got this series, the better their results got.

You make a very valid point. Do you think the PCB should send their U-16 boys team to play the next tour?

Or do they need to be adults, always

 

[gazza619]

They would have failed under Misbah/Waqar combo.

Likewise if Misbah/Waqar were coaching India, they would have lost badly to Australia as well.

 

[in_cutter]

Yes.

Pant and Gill are more talented than anyone Pakistan have ever had in their respective positions/roles.

Washington is better than Shadab.

Siraj is better than all our current pacers barring Shaheen.

The gulf between the talents of the two sides is also massive in addition to the difference in coaching, team environment etc.

I like reading most of your posts but you are sounding like a broken record lol. Yes we all know the gulf between the two sides in terms of talent is massive. No need for repeating it over & over.

 

[obaidshariq]

I totally agree. Also, sure we are behind as compared to India and others atmo and the cracks of not playing at home for so long and the old school infrastructure are getting more visible now but we have a rich history and are trying to develop. PSL is an example and so is the resumption of top teams coming back to Pakistan (thanks to Wasim Khan and Co. Which btw he also bashes left, right and centre). I don't understand his negativity at all.

I like reading most of your posts but you are sounding like a broken record lol. Yes we all know the gulf between the two sides in terms of talent is massive. No need for repeating it over & over.

 

[Junaids]

You make a very valid point. Do you think the PCB should send their U-16 boys team to play the next tour?

Or do they need to be adults, always

I never argue for kids. Picking teenagers is as bad as picking oldies.

 

[naseem]

No....Pant would have been dropped after some failures....... We don't have system for nurturing and
Promting talent like Gill.....
Sundar thakur Siraj all would have rotted in domestics like Zia Tabish......Zafar Saud....for long......

India love to back and promote young players....new players....

We love to rotate the same set of players and seniors....until some youngsta beauty break free...
and difficult to not select and give chance....

We would demote Gill and play an senior in his place.....


There r many faults in our system

 

[pillionrider]

I never argue for kids. Picking teenagers is as bad as picking oldies.

So you were against picking Naseem?

 

[naseem]

Pak don't have proper coaches....fitness culture and the required work ethic....sab apne ap mai mast hai

 

[UzmanBeast]

Yes.

Pant and Gill are more talented than anyone Pakistan have ever had in their respective positions/roles.

Washington is better than Shadab.

Siraj is better than all our current pacers barring Shaheen.

The gulf between the talents of the two sides is also massive in addition to the difference in coaching, team environment etc.

Not just those obvious gulfs, but the biggest gulf is perhaps the fact that it never looks like the Pakistan Team is playing games to win.

The opposition builds one partnership and we look lost, and confused. There's a lack of bowling intellect when under pressure. Our fielding is atrocious. Just a total mess of a team right now.

What I'll tell you is that if we had taken all of our catches in that New Zealand series, we'd have won it. Either we'd have won it or come very close to doing so.

The gulf in talent between the two nations is huge, but the gulf in confidence, team belief, and most importantly, match awareness is the largest. With our resources, we should be winning some games in SENA, not being obliterated in every series. Talent wins you matches, I agree, but consistent, hard-working performances go a long way, and frankly, we have no consistency in Pakistan Cricket.

What the Ind vs Aus series result should tell us is that if we are touring a country, look to win. Act like you are trying to win, and try to win. Understand that you will be under pressure, and fight. Don't give up like a bunch of losers. I'd rather take a loss where I can see a team effort to apply pressure and win, rather than see us grass chances and think about what could have been.

When we stop making foolish mistakes on the pitch as a side, that's when we'll see some real progress. Mohammad Wasim's selections won't fix our cricket alone, we need to be authoritative on the field, and try to win. It is always possible.

That's the biggest gulf between the two nations, one goes to matches and knows they can win, and fights hard despite anything, and the other loses wickets easily, collapses, and gets discarded as a bowling attack.

 

[jnaveen1980]

Gill's father is his Guru. He is a self-made cricketer largely.

 

[CricketAnalyst]

I still cannot believe how far Sundar has come. I didn't follow the IPL this season. He looked unruffled on day 5 Gabba against world no.1 bowler.

He is actually good enough to play at lower levels as a specialist batsman, and in time enough talent to be a true all-rounder good enough to make a national team on either skill.

He has been misused and under-batted in T20 cricket which is why people never realized how well he bats. I wasn't at all surprised to see how we batted in either innings.

 

[CricketAnalyst]

Not just those obvious gulfs, but the biggest gulf is perhaps the fact that it never looks like the Pakistan Team is playing games to win.

The opposition builds one partnership and we look lost, and confused. There's a lack of bowling intellect when under pressure. Our fielding is atrocious. Just a total mess of a team right now.

What I'll tell you is that if we had taken all of our catches in that New Zealand series, we'd have won it. Either we'd have won it or come very close to doing so.

The gulf in talent between the two nations is huge, but the gulf in confidence, team belief, and most importantly, match awareness is the largest. With our resources, we should be winning some games in SENA, not being obliterated in every series. Talent wins you matches, I agree, but consistent, hard-working performances go a long way, and frankly, we have no consistency in Pakistan Cricket.

What the Ind vs Aus series result should tell us is that if we are touring a country, look to win. Act like you are trying to win, and try to win. Understand that you will be under pressure, and fight. Don't give up like a bunch of losers. I'd rather take a loss where I can see a team effort to apply pressure and win, rather than see us grass chances and think about what could have been.

When we stop making foolish mistakes on the pitch as a side, that's when we'll see some real progress. Mohammad Wasim's selections won't fix our cricket alone, we need to be authoritative on the field, and try to win. It is always possible.

That's the biggest gulf between the two nations, one goes to matches and knows they can win, and fights hard despite anything, and the other loses wickets easily, collapses, and gets discarded as a bowling attack.

Agree with this totally.

Only a few observers outside who understand the game very well, and the Indian camp themselves were confident. But actually anyone could see the signs that this would happen. These kids don't have a culture of thinking themselves as the weaker team.

Going abroad Pakistan now, but even earlier Indian teams would think of themselves as the underdog. These guys just don't think that way, and that's why they twice went for targets where almost every other team in the world would have played for a draw and mostly lost.

Note how Pakistan played earlier against NZ when they may have chased and how India played in these chases, giving up in Sydney only when there were no fit batsmen left, and taking on Cummins with required rate above 6 and only bowlers to come.

 

[Energy]

The reason why these young Indian players are flourishing is because they are near-finished products by the time they make their debut. Hence, they are ready to compete from ball one and don't need to hide behind stupid reasons like inexperience.

The way Siraj troubled the Aussie top order, the way Sundar bowled and hooked Cummins and co speaks volumes of the attitude the young Indian players have. And they're all young and raring to go.

Look at the current Pakistan squad - a third of the new guys waiting in line to debut are already 30+.

 

[Pakhs]

They would have all played in Pakistan test side but what is there to discuss in that? These are players who have been doing great in international cricket and Pakistan are ranked 7th?

But Australia is not a country where India has had many problem since the turn of the century. Australia kept India at bay upto about 2008 since they had great side until then but ever since India has had an upper hand. The reason being India always had a great batting line up to take advantage of Australia batting tracks.

Indian problems away from home have come in England, NZ and SA since 2000s where the bowl swings. But this side may even do great in those countries lets wait and see.

 

[UzmanBeast]

Agree with this totally.

Only a few observers outside who understand the game very well, and the Indian camp themselves were confident. But actually anyone could see the signs that this would happen. These kids don't have a culture of thinking themselves as the weaker team.

Going abroad Pakistan now, but even earlier Indian teams would think of themselves as the underdog. These guys just don't think that way, and that's why they twice went for targets where almost every other team in the world would have played for a draw and mostly lost.

Note how Pakistan played earlier against NZ when they may have chased and how India played in these chases, giving up in Sydney only when there were no fit batsmen left, and taking on Cummins with required rate above 6 and only bowlers to come.

Confidence wins a lot of games.

You'd think that the Pakistan team should know that of all teams.

We have so many examples in front of us, yet we are blind to this knowledge.

1992 World Cup, Imran Khan, our greatest ever captain, led a team short of confidence and performances to winning a World Cup.

2017 Champions Trophy, after being hammered by our arch-rivals, we went soared in confidence and won the trophy, defeating our arch-rivals in the final.

2019 World Cup, after losing the first game against West Indies with quite some humiliation, we picked ourselves up and won crucial games, and looked like a completely different team for the second half of the tournament.

The biggest problem with our cricket, the difference between our performances and perhaps those of our neighbors, is that we don't have the talent in players to create many chances, but we don't take the ones we create. If we improved our fielding standard, and our use of the DRS, we'd be a top 4 test team right now and even better in the white-ball cricket.

 

[ahmedzee]

The thing about new Indian players are, they don't buckle under pressure. I don't know if that is because of IPL or their domestic, but something definitely is working for them. These new players are more gutsy than Dhoni's team.

 

[Mamoon]

Not just those obvious gulfs, but the biggest gulf is perhaps the fact that it never looks like the Pakistan Team is playing games to win.

The opposition builds one partnership and we look lost, and confused. There's a lack of bowling intellect when under pressure. Our fielding is atrocious. Just a total mess of a team right now.

What I'll tell you is that if we had taken all of our catches in that New Zealand series, we'd have won it. Either we'd have won it or come very close to doing so.

The gulf in talent between the two nations is huge, but the gulf in confidence, team belief, and most importantly, match awareness is the largest. With our resources, we should be winning some games in SENA, not being obliterated in every series. Talent wins you matches, I agree, but consistent, hard-working performances go a long way, and frankly, we have no consistency in Pakistan Cricket.

What the Ind vs Aus series result should tell us is that if we are touring a country, look to win. Act like you are trying to win, and try to win. Understand that you will be under pressure, and fight. Don't give up like a bunch of losers. I'd rather take a loss where I can see a team effort to apply pressure and win, rather than see us grass chances and think about what could have been.

When we stop making foolish mistakes on the pitch as a side, that's when we'll see some real progress. Mohammad Wasim's selections won't fix our cricket alone, we need to be authoritative on the field, and try to win. It is always possible.

That's the biggest gulf between the two nations, one goes to matches and knows they can win, and fights hard despite anything, and the other loses wickets easily, collapses, and gets discarded as a bowling attack.

Talent and confidence mostly go hand in hand. When you have tremendous ability, you also have tremendous self-belief.

Our seasoned, experienced batsmen cannot bat the way Gill, in his fourth Test, batted today on a day 5 pitch against an A class attack.

The likes of Azhar, Masood, Abid, Fawad, Shafiq etc. would be dead batting everything and playing like scared kittens hoping to survive the day, simply because they do not have the fraction of the talent Gill has.

If they played their shots, they would get out in no time. Only Babar has the ability to take on the bowlers and survive, and it is no wonder that he is also the most confident batsman in the team.

 

[UzmanBeast]

Talent and confidence mostly go hand in hand. When you have tremendous ability, you also have tremendous self-belief.

Our seasoned, experienced batsmen cannot bat the way Gill, in his fourth Test, batted today on a day 5 pitch against an A class attack.

The likes of Azhar, Masood, Abid, Fawad, Shafiq etc. would be dead batting everything and playing like scared kittens hoping to survive the day, simply because they do not have the fraction of the talent Gill has.

If they played their shots, they would get out in no time. Only Babar has the ability to take on the bowlers and survive, and it is no wonder that he is also the most confident batsman in the team.

I'd disagree with talent and confidence going hand in hand.

Average players with a lot of confidence can look like world beaters, but talented players without confidence can put up poor performances, like Prithvi Shaw in IPL 2020.

From our team, only Babar can attack bowlers and actually apply himself to difficult situations. Rizwan has shown glimpses, but the others are unlikely to play a masterstroke of an innings in such a difficult situation.

Azhar Ali is past his prime, and soon, he'll retire. Our management is trying to extract whatever performances they can from him.

A lot of people let his recent form get to their judgement of him, but Azhar Ali has been one of our best test batsmen in our history of test cricket. He deserves to be sent off with some respect, and that's why he should think about the perfect time to retire, probably after all of these home series we have, when a new team combination has been created.

Shan Masood's test career is probably over, and he'll go back into domestic, trying to prove his case. Abid Ali has disappointed me since his debut, and Fawad Alam was just a short-term solution to our problems.

If we take test cricket into consideration, there's only a few names that actually merit the spot:

Babar Azam (c), Mohammad Rizwan (wk), Yasir Shah, Shaheen Shah Afridi.

That's it. 4 players who actually merit a spot.

We have some serious stuff to do as a team.

 

[TNAmarkFromIndia]

He has been misused and under-batted in T20 cricket which is why people never realized how well he bats. I wasn't at all surprised to see how we batted in either innings.

I don't think he has the power game to be a good T20 bat. He can probably play at 125-130 strike rate but you need 140+ if you're batting at 5-7, with ability to hit sixes like Jadeja, Pandya etc.

 

[Suleiman]

lets see..

Gill : After 3 centuries in QEA would have been debuted straight away.
Pant : Would be opening the team in ODI and T20.

Siraj would have blossomed along with Shaheen i think.

Sundar, again the lad has good temperament so would have been picked and backed.

P much. We are so desperate that 3 centuries in a row means please help us.

 

[Yk313]

Just would.love to see my fellow cross border brothers reactions

Would Gill and Pant have developed this mentality and jazbah at such an early age ?

What about Siraj and Sundar as Pakistanis are traditionally well know to produce loads of skilful.bowlers ?

Also if given an option , would Ppers accomodate say a Pant in their team in place of Rizwan or Sundar for Shadaab or say a Gill for maybe Azhar Ali ....or say swap a Shashtri or Bharat Arun with Misbah or Waqar as a coach ?

You mean these players prior to coming into limelight or on the basis of what they have achieved in this in this series and the last few months/years (domestics, IPL etc)?

 

[kingusama92]

Gill is the equivalent of Babar. He's the type of talent that will do well in any system as long as he gets a chance.

I think the others likely would have been dropped or never selected.

 

[princeuk]

No because of infighting and internal politics would have all got in the way of creating world class players, which is why pakistan is in the state it is at the moment.

 

[adzzy786]

Yes.

Pant and Gill are more talented than anyone Pakistan have ever had in their respective positions/roles.

Washington is better than Shadab.

Siraj is better than all our current pacers barring Shaheen.

The gulf between the talents of the two sides is also massive in addition to the difference in coaching, team environment etc.

You are saying after Gill who has played 3 matches he has more talent than Pakistan HAVE EVER HAD in that position? So you think after 3 matches you can make that claim?

Again pant who has only played 16 matches you believe that they have more talent than any Pakistani player ever?

Now I do agree they have immense talent but those claims are ridiculous, especially at this stage of their careers

 

[IM NOT YOU]

Talent and confidence mostly go hand in hand. When you have tremendous ability, you also have tremendous self-belief.

Our seasoned, experienced batsmen cannot bat the way Gill, in his fourth Test, batted today on a day 5 pitch against an A class attack.

The likes of Azhar, Masood, Abid, Fawad, Shafiq etc. would be dead batting everything and playing like scared kittens hoping to survive the day, simply because they do not have the fraction of the talent Gill has.

If they played their shots, they would get out in no time. Only Babar has the ability to take on the bowlers and survive, and it is no wonder that he is also the most confident batsman in the team.

this is absolutely incorrect.



confidence comes from the backing of good management. when you are certain that the system is in place on merit and that you will get the opportunities you deserve, you are able to utilize your talent in the way in which your strengths come to the forefront.

the correct reason why they bat like scared kittens is because they know that one mistake and they may never play again, regardless of their first class performances.

ask fawad alam

 

[PerfectionPersonified]

Yes.

Pant and Gill are more talented than anyone Pakistan have ever had in their respective positions/roles.

Washington is better than Shadab.

Siraj is better than all our current pacers barring Shaheen.

The gulf between the talents of the two sides is also massive in addition to the difference in coaching, team environment etc.

Gill will be exposed in England. Mark it, he is too open with shots which worked temporarily on a dead wicket

 

[IM NOT YOU]

He is actually good enough to play at lower levels as a specialist batsman, and in time enough talent to be a true all-rounder good enough to make a national team on either skill.

He has been misused and under-batted in T20 cricket which is why people never realized how well he bats. I wasn't at all surprised to see how we batted in either innings.

incorrect.

even in tamil nadu premier league he was not a reliable batsman. He is also not a prototypical t20 player - he does not have an attacking ability.

he is also not reliable by any means in any other format including domestic one day or domestic test arena.


he has decent technique and he can play the odd stable innings but that is about it. your analysis is wrong, with no offence intended.

he is mostly a bowling allrounder who is similar to imad wasim in his bowling in the sense that his role is to not give away runs.

his statistics will support what i am saying as well.

 

[JaDed]

Gill will be exposed in England. Mark it, he is too open with shots which worked temporarily on a dead wicket

He will have issues coz his footwork than shots..but he is young and hopefully by second tour if he is good he would had learnt ..

 

[IM NOT YOU]

The thing about new Indian players are, they don't buckle under pressure. I don't know if that is because of IPL or their domestic, but something definitely is working for them. These new players are more gutsy than Dhoni's team.

they dont buckle under pressure because they are selected on merit and while they are young.

they know that even if they fail they will get more chances because india selects on merit. further they know that after many chances if they fail they will get to show their skills again in IPL and warrant selection again one day.


our players have no faith in our selection system and so they are always batting scared for their life.

 

[IM NOT YOU]

It’s not an issue of talent but managing and grooming it. There seems to be no good system of graded progression in Pakistan.

Imran Khan legacy of picking unknown talent and instantly honing them into diamonds is still alive in Pakistan, PCB as well as its fans. That’s why you get Naseems and Shaheens, who are at most as good as India’s T19 bowlers from the same year, fast-tracked in first XI without them going through the rigor that most India or Aus young hopefuls go through.

However, Imran is borne once is a century. If Misbah or Waqar thinks that they also pick and groom talent the same way, then it’s a recipe for disaster. But somehow Pak fans too love this teenager gladiator myth.

Pakistan really needs Gills and Sundars (not so much Pant) who are aggressive but composed. I don’t think Pak will ever like a Pujara in its team. He would have been probably a bus conductor somewhere in Multan.

Even Siraj won’t flourish in Pak as he needs a very supporting environment, from the likes of Bumrah, Kohli and Shami, to gain confidence.

this is the correct answer to the thread question. nailed it.

 

[IM NOT YOU]

pakistan does not select on merit. it is that simple. if you want proof just look at the lahore qalanders rediculous and atrocious style of management.

most of the PSL teams are completely unprofessional and 90% of the talent from national t20 ends up bus drivers. this is not a system of merit.

l

 

[Babbar]

Without talent a player will bound to fail. Otherwise all the tycoons' children would be most successful people.

What I meant was that there’s no shortage of talent in Pakistan or any country but challenge is in groom them well. Imran did a great job himself despite not have a great system. India had talent in 70/80s also but it also did not discover or manage it well.

Of course you can’t take a talentless hack and make him into Wasim Akram or Tendulkar, unless Exoskeletons, Gene modification and neural hacking are legally allowed..

 

[Babbar]

Gill will be exposed in England. Mark it, he is too open with shots which worked temporarily on a dead wicket

That’s partially true though Gill is more than a dead wicket batsmen. The same happened to Shaw even though Shaw is considered at par with, and even above, Gill by people who understand batting talent. But Shaw’s one weakness got found out and was exploited.

However, this is where a strong coaching system comes in.

Shaw is now thrown back into Ranji Cauldron for at least 2 years with watchful coaches to help and a few India-A to provide international experience. He will hopefully emerge out stronger and still below 25 yr old. Shaw has the talent and tenacity to make it happen.

I expect, coaches inc Shastri and Dravid, have identified Gill’s weaknesses and will work on him before England trip. He does not have to go back in the cauldron like Shaw has to.

 

[Bigboii]

lets see..

Gill : After 3 centuries in QEA would have been debuted straight away.
Pant : Would be opening the team in ODI and T20.

Siraj would have blossomed along with Shaheen i think.

Sundar, again the lad has good temperament so would have been picked and backed.

You recently joined PP but you're already know the problem Pak cricketers face
Coundt have said it better

I wish both fans and selectors had patience...

 

[kingusama92]

Gill will be exposed in England. Mark it, he is too open with shots which worked temporarily on a dead wicket

It's similar to Kohli.

He initially struggled in England because it does take time to get used to those conditions. I think Gill is more than capable of figuring things out whether it is in his first series or later on.

The four tests in India against the same opposition should also help.

 

[MHN1293]

They are all better than our cricketer barring babar, shaheeb and rizwan in test. But do you really think misbah would drop azhar for gill. Siraj would have easily found a spot instead of musa or naseem and pant would have been our first choice keeper in lois.

 

[Mamoon]

Gill will be exposed in England. Mark it, he is too open with shots which worked temporarily on a dead wicket

He plays the ball very late and this will help him score consistently in England as well. Even if he struggles on his first tour which I doubt, he will make the minor adjustments required and do well in the future. Basically what Kohli did.

 

[Mamoon]

You are saying after Gill who has played 3 matches he has more talent than Pakistan HAVE EVER HAD in that position? So you think after 3 matches you can make that claim?

Again pant who has only played 16 matches you believe that they have more talent than any Pakistani player ever?

Now I do agree they have immense talent but those claims are ridiculous, especially at this stage of their careers

It may be early but I am not going to hesitate because I have seen what I needed to see.

Gill is in the league of Tendulkar and Kohli, a league where no Pakistani batsman - past or present - belongs.

Pant is a better wicket-keeper batsman than anyone Pakistan has ever produced. As a pure keeper, he is inferior to Rizwan, Latif and Bari, but as an overall package, he trumps all of them.

As a keeper, he will improve against spin after one full home season. He is already decent against pace and will improve further.

 

[Mamoon]

this is absolutely incorrect.



confidence comes from the backing of good management. when you are certain that the system is in place on merit and that you will get the opportunities you deserve, you are able to utilize your talent in the way in which your strengths come to the forefront.

the correct reason why they bat like scared kittens is because they know that one mistake and they may never play again, regardless of their first class performances.

ask fawad alam

When you are not good enough, backing from the management will not make you a top player, and when you are good enough, you will make your opportunities count anyway.

Besides, this whole backing stuff has become a convenient excuse for our fans to defend their favorite players.

If they do well it is because of how talented they are, but if they do not do well it is because the management did not give them confidence.

Pant is a prime example of why it is not about backing only.

Pant is always shafted for Saha when it comes to home Tests, he was not picked for the first Test in spite of his blistering hundred in the practice game, and yet, he has grabbed his opportunities and continues to do so whenever he is given the chance in venues like Australia and England.

He is incredibility talented and he knows it, which is why he plays with supreme confidence even though the management was not fully convinced over his place in the team.

Instead of struggling with lack of confidence because he did not have full backing of the management, he has instead forced the management to have confidence in him.

I am not saying backing does not help, but it is not the difference between success and failure. A truly talented player will force the management to back him with his performances.

We can extend this to Gill as well. He was not picked ahead of Shaw for the first Test and Rohit was flying over from India as well. He made his debut against an elite level attack when India were 1-0 down in the series.

A failure or two would have meant that he would be out of the playing XI and will then have to work his way back into the team. However, because he is extremely good, he had the belief that he can grasp the opportunity and convince the management that they should not look elsewhere.

Does Siraj have backing? No he doesn’t, he wasn’t first-choice and probably will not be first-choice when Bumrah, Shami and Ishant are fit, and yet, he grabbed his opportunities.

Fawad Alam is averaging mid 20s after his comeback. If at the age of 35 after 12,000 FC runs and 160+ matches, he is averaging mid 20s, we cannot blame the management for not giving him confidence. It exposes flaws in his batting technique and method, which is why he has got out to a quite a few tame deliveries.

Adam Voges was picked at the same age by Australia after he scored mountains of runs in Shield cricket, and he averaged 60+ in Test cricket.

There was no talk of Naseem Shah getting axed until now and what did he do? He failed in Australia he was backed by the management. That led to his failure in England.

He was still backed by the management and that led to his failure in New Zealand. Now that he has been rightly dropped, how is it fair to blame the management for not giving him confidence? The reality is that he is just not good.

Shan Masood has had plenty of backing throughout his career and especially in the last 3 years, and he is still awful.

 

[hoshiarpurexpress]

You recently joined PP but you're already know the problem Pak cricketers face
Coundt have said it better

I wish both fans and selectors had patience...

I have been a lurker for long time bro and I watch lots of Videos like Game On hai,
Caught Behind and sometimes for fun see Shoaib Akthar speak.

I can't seem to understand the land which produced Anwar,Inzi and MoYo and Younis Khan to great Miandad has produced only one Babar type batsmen in last decade.

Something has really gone wrong at grass root level.

 

[ex-q-zit]

I never argue for kids. Picking teenagers is as bad as picking oldies.

Well, they can send their u-23's then and win every test series left right and centre. Then maybe we can have a India-Pak WTC final at some point of time.

 

[Nikhhil98]

How does Pak media rate Siraj ? Surely there are many better bowlers than him in Pakistan domestic circuit

 

[Indiafan]

Are we going to ignore that Pant was dropped multiple times, from all formats, after performing, was criticized publicly and in media by captain and coach? Yet he worked hard and made a comeback

 

[MesonK]

lol at Indians presenting Siraj as he is some Mcgrath+Shoaib+vaas reborn. Same people who call Shami ATG.

India is a country where people like Ishnat Sharma with average like 32-34 get to play 100 tests. Pakistanis destroy their own pacers by not letting them settle at all.

 

[UzmanBeast]

Pant is an incredibly talented player, so I won't talk about him when I say that players are made by player development programs.

Pakistanis are saying that there's talent present, some say there is no more top level talent, but we haven't really thought of the fact that player development can make a player go from average to world class.

If we see the example of Ishant Sharma, no offense to him, but when he first burst onto the international scene, there was hardly anything special about him. He was average, to say the least. Now he has become a bowler that most teams would want, and that's player development. Someone like Ishant Sharma, who didn't have the best start to their career, has undoubtedly changed his game and is a much better bowler.

One doesn't have to look far to see how much Pakistan chops and changes its test match bowling attack, being one of the two teams not to have a pacer reach 200 wickets in recent times. We had some pretty good bowlers (ie. Junaid Khan, Mohammad Amir, Wahab Riaz, etc.) but there was no player development and the foundation for support did not exist.

The point is that there are genuine talents like Gill, Pant, etc. but there are also good players who can be made better. Do not act as if all good players now were genuine talents, because most of them were not, they were developed and had the mindset and drive to improve. When talent isn't backed or developed, that's how you end up with another Shehzad, Akmal, etc.

Right now, Pakistan has a very good chance to make amends with the past. They have Hasan Ali, Faheem Ashraf, Babar Azam, Shadab Khan, Shaheen Shah Afridi, Mohammad Hasnain, Imam-ul-Haq, Haider Ali, and more as a group of youngsters who can be made into good players.

The real question to ask is if they will be developed. One cannot say that we don't have the players to do well, we have enough. What we do with these players will determine how we progress as a team.

 

[rhony]

Every player needs to be "developed". Rohit Sharma was on the brink of being kicked out a few years ago. IPL runs for hyderabad saved him. Then the backing from Dhoni helped him further. He went to Mumbai Indians and the rest is history. So the lesson is, no matter how much talent you have, you need 3 things to succeed in cricket. An alternate competitive avenue to prove yourself, backing of your captain and PR. Pant would have succeeded anywhere. Sundar is an example of strong system. Siraj and Gill have just started but they will be given every opportunity to succeed. If they were playing for Pakistan, Sundar will be a Shoaib Malik, Gill will be a Babar. Siraj won't get a chance.

 

[Bhaag Viru Bhaag]

Same old stuff. Player plays well for 2-3 matches(especially at home) and then he is hyped up by our fans and then some England tour happens and it all crashes down.

 

[JaDed]

Same old stuff. Player plays well for 2-3 matches(especially at home) and then he is hyped up by our fans and then some England tour happens and it all crashes down.

So in your opinion it’s all about English tour? What about Aus one.. -Washi,Pant performed there as well...

Dinesh Karthik was instrumental in our 2007 victory in Eng .. not much hype for him..

 

[Bhaag Viru Bhaag]

So in your opinion it’s all about English tour? What about Aus one.. -Washi,Pant performed there as well...

Dinesh Karthik was instrumental in our 2007 victory in Eng .. not much hype for him..

I mean English conditions really test our batting line up. Last time it was KL Rahul who was hyped but it took him 4.5 tests to give a good performance. We lost that match as well. This tour could be last one for many. Australia is A in SENA what about others? How well did we play in NZ?

 

[JaDed]

I mean English conditions really test our batting line up. Last time it was KL Rahul who was hyped but it took him 4.5 tests to give a good performance. We lost that match as well. This tour could be last one for many.

Then it’s about character like Kohli showed, I gave an example already of Dinesh who was amazing in England but didn't do that well outside..

Very few batsmen can play across the world- for us it was only Sachin, Gavaskar .

Even Dravid’s numbers are terrible in SA..Kohli has improved his numbers overall but no one has forgotten his 2014 tour.

Your expectations of players is always to be like Sachin, Kohli, Gavaskar?

I’m sure you can check out Kane’s numbers across the world as well to get an idea..

 

[Bhaag Viru Bhaag]

Then it’s about character like Kohli showed, I gave an example already of Dinesh who was amazing in England but didn't do that well outside..

Very few batsmen can play across the world- for us it was only Sachin, Gavaskar .

Even Dravid’s numbers are terrible in SA..Kohli has improved his numbers overall but no one has forgotten his 2014 tour.

Your expectations of players is always to be like Sachin, Kohli, Gavaskar?

I’m sure you can check out Kane’s numbers across the world as well to get an idea..

They should be at least good in 2 out of 4 SENA countries otherwise we will never win series there. 1 out of 4 may be good for you not me. What does Kane have to do with this? I am talking about Indian players and upcoming tour to England.

 

[reversehook]

No, yehi choro, tendulkar aur dravid dhoni bhi hamari domestic mein mitti khaa rahay hotay ya kisi aur mehnat mazdoori pr lagay hoay hotay... Pakistan mein you gotta be extremely lucky or connected to come through...

 

[JaDed]

They should be at least good in 2 out of 4 SENA countries otherwise we will never win series there. 1 out of 4 may be good for you not me. What does Kane have to do with this? I am talking about Indian players and upcoming tour to England.

Its clear to me now 2 out of 4 SENA countries.. fair enough - So if Pant, Sundar, Gill do well there you would lower your criticism of them?(Aus already done, so they need to perform in one more SENA, need not be England)

Reason to being in KW was don't you think he is a top test bloke?

 

[Bhaag Viru Bhaag]

Its clear to me now 2 out of 4 SENA countries.. fair enough - So if Pant, Sundar, Gill do well there you would lower your criticism of them?(Aus already done, so they need to perform in one more SENA, need not be England)

Reason to being in KW was don't you think he is a top test bloke?

Not all players collectively can be good in one tour. Some will be good in Aus while others will be good in England. Pant has great stats in Aus so far but his stats in England are average and mediocre in NZ and West Indies. 2 out of 4 also means they will consistently score runs everytime they tour that place otherwise their away average will go down. Let's see how they play in England this time. I hope Gill plays well but keeping my expectations low. Pant can be on and off. His average in England is 27 I think. Also his keeping has to be good in all SENA countries.

 

[Bilal7]

None of these guys have flourished. They've barely been around for a couple of years. They still have a lot to prove before you can say that they've flourished at the international level.

Pant especially, reminds me a lot of Umar Akmal. It will be interesting to see how he bats when his form inevitably deserts him. Aggressive players win all the plaudits when they are batting well but they are often the first to face the axe when the going gets tough. Just like Akmal, he isn't the best pure keeper in his country.

 

[Bhaag Viru Bhaag]

None of these guys have flourished. They've barely been around for a couple of years. They still have a lot to prove before you can say that they've flourished at the international level.

Pant especially, reminds me a lot of Umar Akmal. It will be interesting to see how he bats when his form inevitably deserts him. Aggressive players win all the plaudits when they are batting well but they are often the first to face the axe when the going gets tough. Just like Akmal, he isn't the best pure keeper in his country.

His emotional supporters will be the first ones to leave him just like they did after he was dropped from LOI teams. They can only came back after his performances in Australia. Sachin, Yuvi, Dhoni, Dravid, Ganguly, Sehwag all of them had to go through this.

 

[Bilal7]

His emotional supporters will be the first ones to leave him just like they did after he was dropped from LOI teams. They can only came back after his performances in Australia. Sachin, Yuvi, Dhoni, Dravid, Ganguly, Sehwag all of them had to go through this.

Yes, I can definitely foresee the poor guy being made a scapegoat when he tries to reverse sweep Anderson in England and gets caught out.

 

[JaDed]

Not all players collectively can be good in one tour. Some will be good in Aus while others will be good in England. Pant has great stats in Aus so far but his stats in England are average and mediocre in NZ and West Indies. 2 out of 4 also means they will consistently score runs everytime they tour that place otherwise their away average will go down. Let's see how they play in England this time. I hope Gill plays well but keeping my expectations low. Pant can be on and off. His average in England is 27 I think. Also his keeping has to be good in all SENA countries.

Yes I agree but don’t you think he deserves to continue irrespective of English tour as he is 23 and performed really well in last 3 months?

That’s the only point being made here, there was a lot of hype for Sachin in early 89-91.. not comparing Sachin to Pant no but just the idea of persisting with a youngster that has done well in Aus...but feels you had dropped him (Sachin)had you been the selector?

 

[JaDed]

Also Gill has lot of footwork issues which will trouble him in firstEnglish tour, hopefully Rathore can work with him.

 

[Bhaag Viru Bhaag]

Yes I agree but don’t you think he deserves to continue irrespective of English tour as he is 23 and performed really well in last 3 months?

That’s the only point being made here, there was a lot of hype for Sachin in early 89-91.. not comparing Sachin to Pant no but just the idea of persisting with a youngster that has done well in Aus...but feels you had dropped him (Sachin)had you been the selector?

In tests there aren't many option anyway so he will continue to be in the team even if he doesn't perform.