Imran Khan and Kashmir

[Wasim_Waqar]

Jammu and Kashmir is a disputed territory pending final resolution.

What do you think Imran will do to try and solve it?

I have always believed that this is the best chance to get things sorted. Imran isn’t an Indian puppet. I think he will put India on the back foot and force them to talk about Kashmir, particularly focusing on Kashmir valley which he touched upon in his maiden speech.

 

[Musakhel]

Jammu and Kashmir is a disputed territory pending final resolution.

What do you think Imran will do to try and solve it?

I have always believed that this is the best chance to get things sorted. Imran isn’t an Indian puppet. I think he will put India on the back foot and force them to talk about Kashmir, particularly focusing on Kashmir valley which he touched upon in his maiden speech.

What can Imran do that will put India on the back foot? Nothing, India is happy with the current situation because they know the only way Kashmir will be free is by A Pakistani military victory, which is not even possible, even the most nationalistic pakistanis knows that.

 

[Loralai]

I think we should consider looking at General Musharraf's four point formula again. This was a missed chance to resolve the Kashmir issue and I think it should be reconsidered, but this time it should take into account the opinions of the Kashmiri people too.

I am not a Kashmiri so I cannot offer a detailed perspective on this issue, but this affects everyone in Pakistan since our Army likes to take a big chunk of our budget on the pretences of national security. Whipping up Kashmir hysteria is a big part of this in Pakistan. Not denying that there are serious issues in Kashmir which need to be resolved, but Pakistan Army attitude towards handling Kashmir has not been right and has cost us a lot in terms of our reputation.

Interested in hearing liberal views on topics from Indians and Kashmiris too.

 

[TheLastGreatMan]

I think he will put India on the back foot and force them to talk about Kashmir, particularly focusing on Kashmir valley which he touched upon in his maiden speech.

How? Does Imran have an officially declared policy about Kashmir?Is it a priority in his manifesto?

 

[Wasim_Waqar]

How? Does Imran have an officially declared policy about Kashmir?Is it a priority in his manifesto?

Calling India out on it. Demand self-determination.

I will be interesting what developments he also has for Azad Kashmir. Exciting times.

 

[TheLastGreatMan]

Calling India out on it. Demand self-determination.

I will be interesting what developments he also has for Azad Kashmir. Exciting times.

Common all Pakistani politicians keep calling. What is his official stand?

 

[Wasim_Waqar]

I think we should consider looking at General Musharraf's four point formula again. This was a missed chance to resolve the Kashmir issue and I think it should be reconsidered, but this time it should take into account the opinions of the Kashmiri people too.

I am not a Kashmiri so I cannot offer a detailed perspective on this issue, but this affects everyone in Pakistan since our Army likes to take a big chunk of our budget on the pretences of national security. Whipping up Kashmir hysteria is a big part of this in Pakistan. Not denying that there are serious issues in Kashmir which need to be resolved, but Pakistan Army attitude towards handling Kashmir has not been right and has cost us a lot in terms of our reputation.

Interested in hearing liberal views on topics from Indians and Kashmiris too.

I’m from Azad Kashmir. Military action is not going to work.

We need to get down to the table and talk.

Kashmir valley and Chenab valley do not want to be part of India. This is the crux. If there’s not going to be right of self determination across whole state, then the people in those 2 regions need to have their choice at the least about whether to join Pakistan or India.

 

[Loralai]

I’m from Azad Kashmir. Military action is not going to work.

We need to get down to the table and talk.

Kashmir valley and Chenab valley do not want to be part of India. This is the crux. If there’s not going to be right of self determination across whole state, then the people in those 2 regions need to have their choice at the least about whether to join Pakistan or India.

I agree - I would not ever advocate military aciton between the two countries. You can read here for Musharrafs four points (did not advocate a military solution)

https://nation.com.pk/16-Mar-2017/m...loses-out-and-it-s-neither-india-nor-pakistan

 

[Wasim_Waqar]

I agree - I would not ever advocate military aciton between the two countries. You can read here for Musharrafs four points (did not advocate a military solution)

https://nation.com.pk/16-Mar-2017/m...loses-out-and-it-s-neither-india-nor-pakistan

I know about his four point formula and don’t agree with it as Kashmir valley would become part of India. That isn’t acceptable. If Palestine becoming part of Israel is unacceptable then so is this. Koshur people have their own culture, language and are tied with Pakistan through religion, language, culture and emotions.

 

[BlackShadow]

He will cry about Kashmir in a more charismatic fashion.

 

[TheLastGreatMan]

He will cry about Kashmir in a more charismatic fashion.

We can give benefit of doubt to him for some time as i don't think Kashmir is his top priority right now.

 

[BlackShadow]

I know about his four point formula and don’t agree with it as Kashmir valley would become part of India. That isn’t acceptable. If Palestine becoming part of Israel is unacceptable then so is this. Koshur people have their own culture, language and are tied with Pakistan through religion, language, culture and emotions.

Religious ties mean nothing here, legal ties do and the land of Kashmir (including Pak occupied) is legally tied to India.

 

[enkidu_]

At least he'll be more active than the Sharif's, who despite being ethnic Kashmiris haven't done much.

Musharraf's four points agenda was too meek, and bashed for this reason by Kashmiri representatives/officials.

Because of religion/customs/social behavior/looks/etc Kashmiris are bound to join Pak.

 

[TheLastGreatMan]

At least he'll be more active than the Sharif's, who despite being ethnic Kashmiris haven't done much.

Musharraf's four points agenda was too meek, and bashed for this reason by Kashmiri representatives/officials.

Because of religion/customs/social behavior/looks/etc Kashmiris are bound to join Pak.

Nobody stops them crossing border.

 

[enkidu_]

Nobody stops them crossing border.

They want the border itself to change.

 

[cricketjoshila]

Calling India out on it. Demand self-determination.

I will be interesting what developments he also has for Azad Kashmir. Exciting times.

Khawaab dekhne ki bhi hadd hoti hai.

 

[TheLastGreatMan]

They want the border itself to change.

But you just said

because of religion/customs/social behavior/looks/etc Kashmiris are bound to join Pak.

So why land matters when they have so much in common with Pakistanis? Are you saying Kashmiris value materialistic things over the values you mentioned above?

 

[enkidu_]

But you just said


So why land matters when they have so much in common with Pakistanis? Are you saying Kashmiris value materialistic things over the values you mentioned above?

When I talk of Kashmiris I obviously include their own lands they inhabit/labored/... for centuries, unless you have in mind mass deportations of whole populations à la Stalin, that should ideally be the natural thinking.

 

[TheLastGreatMan]

When I talk of Kashmiris I obviously include their own lands they inhabit/labored/... for centuries, unless you have in mind mass deportations of whole populations à la Stalin, that should ideally be the natural thinking.

Why land is so important than your beliefs/looks? Can't Pakistan arrange them similar lands so that they can belong with people of same belief/looks?

People migrate from one place to another place all the time,so why cant any one from Kashmir who really wants move to Pakistan go?

 

[enkidu_]

Why land is so important than your beliefs/looks? Can't Pakistan arrange them similar lands so that they can belong with people of same belief/looks?

People migrate from one place to another place all the time,so why cant any one from Kashmir who really wants move to Pakistan go?

You're arguing for the sake or arguing. Kashmir is a bilateral issue which concerns Pak/India, and Kashmiris, in their religion/culture/looks/etc would be closer to the majority of Pakistanis than Indians, like they historically have been connected to West Punjab, and this is the reason you still find millions of Kashmiris in modern Pak (the Sharif's, the Butt's, Dar's, etc)

I don't know why they should migrate. That's like asking why Bhagat Singh/Gandhi/etc didn't migrate in a non-British held territory instead of fighting in their lands.

 

[TheLastGreatMan]

You're arguing for the sake or arguing. Kashmir is a bilateral issue which concerns Pak/India, and Kashmiris, in their religion/culture/looks/etc would be closer to the majority of Pakistanis than Indians, like they historically have been connected to West Punjab, and this is the reason you still find millions of Kashmiris in modern Pak (the Sharif's, the Butt's, Dar's, etc)

I don't know why they should migrate. That's like asking why Bhagat Singh/Gandhi/etc didn't migrate in a non-British held territory instead of fighting in their lands.

In your original quote you sounded like Kashmiris wanted to move to Pakistan because of beliefs/looks etc..so i just thought that's more important.Now you are saying they want to join Pakistan but with condition of taking land as well.

For me if i want to move because of belief/looks then no material things will matter.

 

[enkidu_]

In your original quote you sounded like Kashmiris wanted to move to Pakistan because of beliefs/looks etc..so i just thought that's more important.Now you are saying they want to join Pakistan but with condition of taking land as well.

For me if i want to move because of belief/looks then no material things will matter.

"With condition" lol, we're talking of their lands there, not Tamil Nadu or Bihar.

 

[TheLastGreatMan]

"With condition" lol, we're talking of their lands there, not Tamil Nadu or Bihar.

Then you should have simply write that instead of saying beliefs/looks etc...If you really believe something then materialistic things should not matter.You are insulting Kashmiris here.

 

[Gabbar Singh]

To negotiate you’ve got to offer something to the other side and as it stands Pakistan has nothing substantial to offer India - India is perfectly happy with the status quo and there’s no chance they will let the valley go from their control given its strategic value and the billions invested there by India in hydro projects. How is Khan going to change that?

Pakistan has two options:

1. Put Kashmir to the back-burner and concentrate on improving trade which would do wonders for their economy or;

2. Carry on with the “until we deal with Kashmir nothing else can move forward” rhetoric and therefore keep up the hostile atmosphere.



Ultimately India will follow the Tibet and East Jerusalem model and change the demographics of J&K so much that any calls of Azadi will simply be drowned out by the new majority. It’s not the moral thing to do but it is reality.

 

[TheLastGreatMan]

To negotiate you’ve got to offer something to the other side and as it stands Pakistan has nothing substantial to offer India - India is perfectly happy with the status quo and there’s no chance they will let the valley go from their control given its strategic value and the billions invested there by India in hydro projects. How is Khan going to change that?

Pakistan has two options:

1. Put Kashmir to the back-burner and concentrate on improving trade which would do wonders for their economy or;

2. Carry on with the “until we deal with Kashmir nothing else can move forward” rhetoric and therefore keep up the hostile atmosphere.



Ultimately India will follow the Tibet and East Jerusalem model and change the demographics of J&K so much that any calls of Azadi will simply be drowned out by the new majority. It’s not the moral thing to do but it is reality.

best option for IK is to maintain status quo and rein in non state actors.But i don't think Army will allow that.

 

[enkidu_]

To negotiate you’ve got to offer something to the other side and as it stands Pakistan has nothing substantial to offer India - India is perfectly happy with the status quo and there’s no chance they will let the valley go from their control given its strategic value and the billions invested there by India in hydro projects. How is Khan going to change that?

Pakistan has two options:

1. Put Kashmir to the back-burner and concentrate on improving trade which would do wonders for their economy or;

2. Carry on with the “until we deal with Kashmir nothing else can move forward” rhetoric and therefore keep up the hostile atmosphere.

India did these investments while knowing that J&K is disputed territory and a bilateral issue with Pak.

That's like saying that the British should have destroyed their roads, schools or whatever when they had to leave the SC.

Pakistan can improve trade with a dozen of other countries, but that's not even the point, from a Pak perspective the life of Kashmiris is more important than few economic dividends.

Ultimately India will follow the Tibet and East Jerusalem model and change the demographics of J&K so much that any calls of Azadi will simply be drowned out by the new majority. It’s not the moral thing to do but it is reality.

Basically like the Hindutvadis/BJP politicians you want to remove article 370 ? Even State stooges like Mehbooba Mufti/Omar Abdullah said it'd be suicidal for India, the latter openly saying that J&K will not remain within the federation - in fact, if anything, Kashmiris would love India to show its true intents.

Btw you more or less admit that the only way to keep Kashmir with India is to basically remove Kashmiris ( [MENTION=59262]shaaik[/MENTION] ).

 

[blackanhyellow]

To make cooncessions and compromises on kashmir you need to have the political capital.

Imran has a strong opposition who will cause him a lot of political damage at home if he makes any sort of compromise with India.

In this climate, a strong man in the shape of musharraf came close to making a deal because he was a dictator and did not really have to contend with the type of political opposition imran will have to deal with.

 

[TheLastGreatMan]

To make cooncessions and compromises on kashmir you need to have the political capital.

Imran has a strong opposition who will cause him a lot of political damage at home if he makes any sort of compromise with India.

In this climate, a strong man in the shape of musharraf came close to making a deal because he was a dictator and did not really have to contend with the type of political opposition imran will have to deal with.

But Sharif was already accused of in collision with India (i guess even IK implied same) so half the opposition gone there only right?

 

[TheLastGreatMan]

India did these investments while knowing that J&K is disputed territory and a bilateral issue with Pak.

That's like saying that the British should have destroyed their roads, schools or whatever when they had to leave the SC.

Pakistan can improve trade with a dozen of other countries, but that's not even the point, from a Pak perspective the life of Kashmiris is more important than few economic dividends.



Basically like the Hindutvadis/BJP politicians you want to remove article 370 ? Even State stooges like Mehbooba Mufti/Omar Abdullah said it'd be suicidal for India, the latter openly saying that J&K will not remain within the federation - in fact, if anything, Kashmiris would love India to show its true intents.

Btw you more or less admit that the only way to keep Kashmir with India is to basically remove Kashmiris ( [MENTION=59262]shaaik[/MENTION] ).

British made lots of money from India in return to the infrastructure they built.

 

[Wasim_Waqar]

India wants Hafiz Saeed who’s a bogeyman as such for them...

If I were PM, I would offer him in return for Kashmir and Chenab valleys being given to Pakistan.

Palestinians aren’t Israeli and Kashmiris aren’t Indian.

 

[TheLastGreatMan]

India wants Hafiz Saeed who’s a bogeyman as such for them...

If I were PM, I would offer him in return for Kashmir and Chenab valleys being given to Pakistan.

Palestinians aren’t Israeli and Kashmiris aren’t Indian.

Whoever doesn't want to live in India they are free to migrate,who stops them?We have enough population problem already.

 

[blackanhyellow]

But Sharif was already accused of in collision with India (i guess even IK implied same) so half the opposition gone there only right?

sharif still has a lot of support. Combine that with PPP and the religious parties who will jump on the bandwagon.

It will be a political disaster for imran. He will be seen as a yahoodi sleeper agent who finally went active.

Any type of concessions on the kashmir issue will be portrayed as treacherous.

Without concessions and compromises nothing will get solved.

 

[TheLastGreatMan]

sharif still has a lot of support. Combine that with PPP and the religious parties who will jump on the bandwagon.

It will be a political disaster for imran. He will be seen as a yahoodi sleeper agent who finally went active.

Any type of concessions on the kashmir issue will be portrayed as treacherous.

Without concessions and compromises nothing will get solved.

Shariff have support and he was called a India agent so its easier for Imran to cut a deal with him regarding concessions right? IK can even get a Nobel peace prize if he solves this problem.

I guess best option is to build a big wall between India and Pakistan (even Trump may contribute).May be in future if new generations want they can tear down this wall like West & East Germany did.Enough of bloodshed.

 

[Pakistanian]

I agree - I would not ever advocate military aciton between the two countries. You can read here for Musharrafs four points (did not advocate a military solution)

https://nation.com.pk/16-Mar-2017/m...loses-out-and-it-s-neither-india-nor-pakistan

This was a terrible idea, he was trying to sell Kashmir.

 

[TheLastGreatMan]

This was a terrible idea, he was trying to sell Kashmir.

Who is going to buy?

 

[enkidu_]

this "Kashmiri success story" for Indian media years ago apparenly also supports Imran Khan's stance :

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">India is being shamed (internationally) by (a section of) Indian media. The neighbouring country has elected a new PM, he is talking about reconciliation, he is talking about change, but the loudmouths on this side are ranting to ensure that the hostilities continue.<br>Unfortunate.</p>— Shah Faesal (@shahfaesal) <a href="https://twitter.com/shahfaesal/status/1022684454651928577?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">July 27, 2018</a></blockquote>
<script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

Indian media which hailed him as the future of Kashmiri youth years ago ofc going mad :

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/WiyHR0kSSTw" frameborder="0" allow="autoplay; encrypted-media" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Previous news about the "model Kashmiri" :

For "Rapistan" Tweet, 2009 IAS Topper From Kashmir Faces Centre's Wrath

https://www.ndtv.com/india-news/sha...aces-centres-wrath-for-rapistan-tweet-1881210

 

[Wasim_Waqar]

Whoever doesn't want to live in India they are free to migrate,who stops them?We have enough population problem already.

Smell the coffee. Disputed territory.

You have a population problem in you country not within Kashmir valley. Leave us alone and go back via Lakhenpur where a wall should be built.

Infact you can have Jammu city and South Jammu districts. However, Chenab and Kashmir valleys will become part of Pakistan. Kashmiris will long to be part of New Pakistan.

 

[Wasim_Waqar]

this "Kashmiri success story" for Indian media years ago apparenly also supports Imran Khan's stance :

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">India is being shamed (internationally) by (a section of) Indian media. The neighbouring country has elected a new PM, he is talking about reconciliation, he is talking about change, but the loudmouths on this side are ranting to ensure that the hostilities continue.<br>Unfortunate.</p>— Shah Faesal (@shahfaesal) <a href="https://twitter.com/shahfaesal/status/1022684454651928577?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">July 27, 2018</a></blockquote>
<script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

Indian media which hailed him as the future of Kashmiri youth years ago ofc going mad :

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/WiyHR0kSSTw" frameborder="0" allow="autoplay; encrypted-media" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Previous news about the "model Kashmiri" :

For "Rapistan" Tweet, 2009 IAS Topper From Kashmir Faces Centre's Wrath

https://www.ndtv.com/india-news/sha...aces-centres-wrath-for-rapistan-tweet-1881210

India doesn’t want IK in charge because Kashmiris finally identify with the Pakistani leadership. Am excited to see Pakistan government take the Kashmiri people with them into their hearts and souls.

 

[TheLastGreatMan]

this "Kashmiri success story" for Indian media years ago apparenly also supports Imran Khan's stance :

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">India is being shamed (internationally) by (a section of) Indian media. The neighbouring country has elected a new PM, he is talking about reconciliation, he is talking about change, but the loudmouths on this side are ranting to ensure that the hostilities continue.<br>Unfortunate.</p>— Shah Faesal (@shahfaesal) <a href="https://twitter.com/shahfaesal/status/1022684454651928577?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">July 27, 2018</a></blockquote>
<script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

Indian media which hailed him as the future of Kashmiri youth years ago ofc going mad :

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/WiyHR0kSSTw" frameborder="0" allow="autoplay; encrypted-media" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Previous news about the "model Kashmiri" :

For "Rapistan" Tweet, 2009 IAS Topper From Kashmir Faces Centre's Wrath

https://www.ndtv.com/india-news/sha...aces-centres-wrath-for-rapistan-tweet-1881210

Not sure whats the issue here? Any Govt official will get same comment whether he is Kashmiri or Bihari.

 

[TheLastGreatMan]

Smell the coffee. Disputed territory.

You have a population problem in you country not within Kashmir valley. Leave us alone and go back via Lakhenpur where a wall should be built.

Infact you can have Jammu city and South Jammu districts. However, Chenab and Kashmir valleys will become part of Pakistan. Kashmiris will long to be part of New Pakistan.

If you really want part of Pakistan you should have moved by now.

Land will stay,whoever doesn't want free to move.we can even arrange transportation.

May be if you guys didn't kicked out kashmiri pundits there would have been some sympathies.

 

[enkidu_]

Not sure whats the issue here? Any Govt official will get same comment whether he is Kashmiri or Bihari.

This guy was hyped as the model Kashmiri by the Indian media few years and now more or less slaps a large contingent of them for uselessly bashing Imran Khan's stance on Kashmir, that he himself seems to endorse willfully.

If a Muslim from Bihar had said the same it wouldn't have the same weight as a Kashmiri, even more so one sold as some kind of normative future Kashmiri.

 

[cricketjoshila]

India did these investments while knowing that J&K is disputed territory and a bilateral issue with Pak.

That's like saying that the British should have destroyed their roads, schools or whatever when they had to leave the SC.

Pakistan can improve trade with a dozen of other countries, but that's not even the point, from a Pak perspective the life of Kashmiris is more important than few economic dividends.



Basically like the Hindutvadis/BJP politicians you want to remove article 370 ? Even State stooges like Mehbooba Mufti/Omar Abdullah said it'd be suicidal for India, the latter openly saying that J&K will not remain within the federation - in fact, if anything, Kashmiris would love India to show its true intents.

Btw you more or less admit that the only way to keep Kashmir with India is to basically remove Kashmiris ( [MENTION=59262]shaaik[/MENTION] ).

1. Pakistan hardly offers India much in terms of overall trade or economic benefits. India has realised that Pakistan will continue to fund train and arm separatists and terrorists in India. So its futile to engage in any talks. Rather its better to use time energy and resources to build dams on the rivers in Kashmir and ratcheting up the Army's capability along the LoC. Any terror attack in India in future will likely mean a disproprtionate amount of use of force along the Loc. It may even result in some constraints while releasing the water from the dams.

2.Article 370 will be aborrogated in future. Omar Abdullah can cry as much as he wants, his family's days of fiefdom over J and K are over. Kashmiri separatists have been trying to separate from the federation, what more can they do? Pakistan tried wars to get Kashmir, but were unsuccessful. So that avenue is closed as well.

3. The people of leh and ladakh have little to do with separatism they have even demanded to be governed as a separate province from J and K. Jammu is hindu majority so dont see issues there as well. Ultimately the valley will see the hindus returning with their descendants and all. As more and more people will settle in J and K this "Azaadi" drama will die down.

4. No one is removing the Kashmiris. Though the valley muslims did kill and remove hindus. Betraying their real face as a religious extremist movement. This is why no country except Pakistan supports them.

 

[Gabbar Singh]

Basically like the Hindutvadis/BJP politicians you want to remove article 370 ? Even State stooges like Mehbooba Mufti/Omar Abdullah said it'd be suicidal for India, the latter openly saying that J&K will not remain within the federation - in fact, if anything, Kashmiris would love India to show its true intents.

Btw you more or less admit that the only way to keep Kashmir with India is to basically remove Kashmiris ( [MENTION=59262]shaaik[/MENTION] ).

No one will be removed. I didn't say it's what I wanted but it is what will eventually happen. The longer the status quo remains the longer it favours India's position. Moreover, I don't really buy into the whole "India is going to become an economic superpower soon" rhetoric (there is a long way to go before that happens) nevertheless India's economy is large enough to maintain it's position easily. Can the same be said for Pakistan? For how long can the Pakistani taxpayer afford to divert 20-25% of it's annual budget to the army?

 

[TheLastGreatMan]

This guy was hyped as the model Kashmiri by the Indian media few years and now more or less slaps a large contingent of them for uselessly bashing Imran Khan's stance on Kashmir, that he himself seems to endorse willfully.

If a Muslim from Bihar had said the same it wouldn't have the same weight as a Kashmiri, even more so one sold as some kind of normative future Kashmiri.

Indian media hypes and bring down any person from any state or community in India.

 

[cricketjoshila]

Smell the coffee. Disputed territory.

You have a population problem in you country not within Kashmir valley. Leave us alone and go back via Lakhenpur where a wall should be built.

Infact you can have Jammu city and South Jammu districts. However, Chenab and Kashmir valleys will become part of Pakistan. Kashmiris will long to be part of New Pakistan.

You are free to stay in PoK. While what is J and K will remain with India and no Pakistani leader can change the status quo.

 

[InziRules]

You are free to stay in PoK. While what is J and K will remain with India and no Pakistani leader can change the status quo.

Sad to see someone supporting rape and murder of Non-Hindus. What if your sister was Non-Hindu?

 

[cricketjoshila]

No one will be removed. I didn't say it's what I wanted but it is what will eventually happen. The longer the status quo remains the longer it favours India's position. Moreover, I don't really buy into the whole "India is going to become an economic superpower soon" rhetoric (there is a long way to go before that happens) nevertheless India's economy is large enough to maintain it's position easily. Can the same be said for Pakistan? For how long can the Pakistani taxpayer afford to divert 20-25% of it's annual budget to the army?

Dont know about super power but its a 2.5th economy and will be in top 5 economies of the world. Plus the growth rate of 7% plus means economically we can outmuscle Pakistan easily. Even in conventional military might the gap is increasing by the day.

As you said Pakistan can keep diverting huge resources to the army in its effort to maintain some kind of parity with India abd that will ruin its economy at one point in time. So India doesnt have to do much but just keep the status quo.

 

[cricketjoshila]

Sad to see someone supporting rape and murder of Non-Hindus. What if your sister was Non-Hindu?

Where did you see any comments about rape or murder?

 

[InziRules]

Where did you see that?

You support what Indian army do in Kashmir. They rape and murder Non-Hindus.

 

[enkidu_]

1. Pakistan hardly offers India much in terms of overall trade or economic benefits. India has realised that Pakistan will continue to fund train and arm separatists and terrorists in India. So its futile to engage in any talks. Rather its better to use time energy and resources to build dams on the rivers in Kashmir and ratcheting up the Army's capability along the LoC. Any terror attack in India in future will likely mean a disproprtionate amount of use of force along the Loc. It may even result in some constraints while releasing the water from the dams.

Here we agree : there's no point in talking.

2.Article 370 will be aborrogated in future. Omar Abdullah can cry as much as he wants, his family's days of fiefdom over J and K are over. Kashmiri separatists have been trying to separate from the federation, what more can they do? Pakistan tried wars to get Kashmir, but were unsuccessful. So that avenue is closed as well.

Do remove it, that's what Kashmiris are waiting for, and all the State stooges to know why Sheikh Abdullah messed it up big time.

3. The people of leh and ladakh have little to do with separatism they have even demanded to be governed as a separate province from J and K. Jammu is hindu majority so dont see issues there as well. Ultimately the valley will see the hindus returning with their descendants and all. As more and more people will settle in J and K this "Azaadi" drama will die down.

You can keep the Hindu majority districts of Jammu, we're talking of the Muslim majority ones;

4. No one is removing the Kashmiris. Though the valley muslims did kill and remove hindus. Betraying their real face as a religious extremist movement. This is why no country except Pakistan supports them.

Hari Singh/Dogra forces transformed Jammu from a Muslim majority to a Hindu majority region. On the other hand Pandits were never close to being a majority in the Valley. But no wonder Hindu nationalists have no problem supporting them and the Indian security forces basically continue the Dogra policies.

 

[cricketjoshila]

You support what Indian army do in Kashmir. They rape and murder Non-Hindus.

Indian Army is protecting its territory and fighting a religious terrorist movement.

 

[TheLastGreatMan]

On the other hand Pandits were never close to being a majority in the Valley. But no wonder Hindu nationalists have no problem supporting them and the Indian security forces basically continue the Dogra policies.

So its ok to kill them and take their land?

 

[InziRules]

Indian Army is protecting its territory and fighting a religious terrorist movement.

By raping and murdering?

 

[cricketjoshila]

By raping and murdering?

Killing armed terrorists is not murder.

 

[InziRules]

Killing armed terrorists is not murder.

Is raping their wives not rape?

 

[slipcatch]

Indian Army is protecting its territory and fighting a religious terrorist movement.

a religiously motivated army against the will of people of that region. Sure.

 

[cricketjoshila]

Here we agree : there's no point in talking.



Do remove it, that's what Kashmiris are waiting for, and all the State stooges to know why Sheikh Abdullah messed it up big time.



You can keep the Hindu majority districts of Jammu, we're talking of the Muslim majority ones;



Hari Singh/Dogra forces transformed Jammu from a Muslim majority to a Hindu majority region. On the other hand Pandits were never close to being a majority in the Valley. But no wonder Hindu nationalists have no problem supporting them and the Indian security forces basically continue the Dogra policies.

1. Good that you agree that its no point talking.

2. It will be removed in time as once Kashmiri Pandits are rehabilitated and then others will come. Nehru's blunder will be rectified.

3. Leh and Jammu are not even up for any division. They have non muslim majority and no part will ever be allowed to become part of a state where hindus will ultimately be driven out to India while losing their land. Mistakes of partition will not be repeated.

4. Muslim invaders converted a hindu kashmir into a muslim majority one. Destroyed hindu temples and killed hindus. The separatists and terrorists just follow the same medieval ideology.

 

[cricketjoshila]

a religiously motivated army against the will of people of that region. Sure.

Indian Army contains people from all religions including Kashmiri muslims.

 

[cricketjoshila]

Is raping their wives not rape?

Whosoever is involved in such needs to be punished and have been punished.

 

[enkidu_]

1. Good that you agree that its no point talking.

2. It will be removed in time as once Kashmiri Pandits are rehabilitated and then others will come. Nehru's blunder will be rectified.

3. Leh and Jammu are not even up for any division. They have non muslim majority and no part will ever be allowed to become part of a state where hindus will ultimately be driven out to India while losing their land. Mistakes of partition will not be repeated.

4. Muslim invaders converted a hindu kashmir into a muslim majority one. Destroyed hindu temples and killed hindus. The separatists and terrorists just follow the same medieval ideology.

Kashmir issue is a issue from the Partition, that's the whole point.

And you're at it with Sikandar Butshikan again lol ? The Kashmir issue is from the beginning of the last century, not the 14th or 18th, or to the Aryan invasion which forced a foreign creed upon the natives Dalits/Adivasis.

Kashmiris have no interest in converting UPites or Biharis or whatever to Islam like the Islamic conquerors, but to get freedom for themselves and their lands.

 

[slipcatch]

Indian Army contains people from all religions including Kashmiri muslims.

They need to make their bread and butter. And just because they contain people from all religion does not mean it isn't religiously motivated occupation against the will of people.

 

[Pakistanian]

Even if Sikandar Butshikan was a Hindu, why does it matter? He was still Kashmiri, not a Bengali. If India is a secular country then you can't claim everybody is Indian just cause they had Hindu ancestors otherwise you guys can claim Nepalis as Indian.

 

[Wasim_Waqar]

Indian Army contains people from all religions including Kashmiri muslims.

Yes SA army in apartheid had black South Africans. What’s your point?

Wamiq Farooq, Tufail Mattoo, Asiya and neelofar Jan and many more have suffered from the Indian genocide of Kashmiris.

Indian propaganda talks about Kashmiri Pandits. 200 people were sadly murdered but they use this to grossly inflate numbers of Kashmiri Pandits who chose to leave Kashmir for money as offered by Jagmohan.

100,000 Kashmiris killed by India since 1989.

Agree to a referendum so that Pakistan can vacate.

 

[enkidu_]

Mirwaiz Umar Farooq on Imran Khan/Pakistan :

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/OC4Fw48gb4k" frameborder="0" allow="autoplay; encrypted-media" allowfullscreen></iframe>

 

[TheLastGreatMan]

Yes SA army in apartheid had black South Africans. What’s your point?

Wamiq Farooq, Tufail Mattoo, Asiya and neelofar Jan and many more have suffered from the Indian genocide of Kashmiris.

Indian propaganda talks about Kashmiri Pandits. 200 people were sadly murdered but they use this to grossly inflate numbers of Kashmiri Pandits who chose to leave Kashmir for money as offered by Jagmohan.

100,000 Kashmiris killed by India since 1989.

Agree to a referendum so that Pakistan can vacate.

So its ok because its only 200? Also from where you got this data?Kashmiri Pundits left due to threats/murder now turning into they left because of money..nice propaganda.

 

[amax]

most strategic, beautiful and important region of princely state of Kashmir Gilgit Baltistan is in Pakistan's control. Azad Kashmir, Ladakh and Jammu have no uprising does only valley really worth all the fighting between the both countries.

 

[cricketjoshila]

Kashmir issue is a issue from the Partition, that's the whole point.

And you're at it with Sikandar Butshikan again lol ? The Kashmir issue is from the beginning of the last century, not the 14th or 18th, or to the Aryan invasion which forced a foreign creed upon the natives Dalits/Adivasis.

Kashmiris have no interest in converting UPites or Biharis or whatever to Islam like the Islamic conquerors, but to get freedom for themselves and their lands.

1. Yea Pakistan illegally invaded a sovereign state.

2. Kashmiri problem is because Butshikan and co. Perpetrated a extremist ideology of killing hindus. The separatists and terrorists are following the same ideology.

3. Kashmiris include non muslims too and those people too who are actively serving in the indian armed forces. They dont seem to have any interest in this terrorist movement.

 

[Pakistanian]

most strategic, beautiful and important region of princely state of Kashmir Gilgit Baltistan is in Pakistan's control. Azad Kashmir, Ladakh and Jammu have no uprising does only valley really worth all the fighting between the both countries.

Actually there's a lot of separatist activity and violence in the Muslim districts of Jammu, in fact the movement originates from there and a lot Kashmiri separatists are from Jammu even if they're not ethnically Kashmiri. Only 4 districts in Jammu are Hindu majority but they have the biggest populations skewing the pop. in their favor.

 

[cricketjoshila]

most strategic, beautiful and important region of princely state of Kashmir Gilgit Baltistan is in Pakistan's control. Azad Kashmir, Ladakh and Jammu have no uprising does only valley really worth all the fighting between the both countries.

So why doesnt pakistan accept the status quo? Let the valley people settle their issues with India.

China claims two Indian states of Sikkim and Arunachal. India claims Aksai Chin. Yet there has not been any active firing since 1967. Both countries realise that changing the status quo is too costly.

 

[amax]

So why doesnt pakistan accept the status quo? Let the valley people settle their issues with India.

China claims two Indian states of Sikkim and Arunachal. India claims Aksai Chin. Yet there has not been any active firing since 1967. Both countries realise that changing the status quo is too costly.

yes LOC=IB is the only viable solution, I really feel for people of Gilgit Baltistan who are constitutionally suffering for last 70 years just because they were part of dogra state at the time of Partition. Accept LOC=IB make Gilgit Baltistan fifith province and get over with the issue.

 

[enkidu_]

1. Yea Pakistan illegally invaded a sovereign state.

2. Kashmiri problem is because Butshikan and co. Perpetrated a extremist ideology of killing hindus. The separatists and terrorists are following the same ideology.

3. Kashmiris include non muslims too and those people too who are actively serving in the indian armed forces. They dont seem to have any interest in this terrorist movement.

1. No point in going discussing the Poonch rebellion which predates the "invasion", as your Hindu historiography doesn't take it into account, but everyone basically admits it's a bilateral issue with Pak on board, and that's why Indian talks of "PoK" and not "Pakistan occupied Punjab" or "Pak occupied Sindh", despite being present in Tagore's anthem.

2. There's a continuing link between Sikandar Butshikan and modern Kashmiri separatists ? Which Kashmiri separatist individuals and/or groups have considered Sikandar like a rolemodel, the way British have considered Churchill, the killer of millions of Bengalis by famine, as their greatest historical figure ?

3. Kashmiris incl. non Muslims but it's majority is Muslim. In a democracy it's the majority which wins I think ? Or do you want to do minorities appeasement like the Khangress ?

 

[Pakistanian]

yes LOC=IB is the only viable solution, I really feel for people of Gilgit Baltistan who are constitutionally suffering for last 70 years just because they were part of dogra state at the time of Partition. Accept LOC=IB make Gilgit Baltistan fifith province and get over with the issue.

Why should Pakistan throw Kashmir away to India? You're only bartering Kashmir for some economic incentives.

Also Pakistan can still give GB provincial status and also maintain that it doesn't recognize Kashmir as part of India. You're creating a false dichotomy.

 

[TheLastGreatMan]

Why should Pakistan throw Kashmir away to India? You're only bartering Kashmir for some economic incentives.

Also Pakistan can still give GB provincial status and also maintain that it doesn't recognize Kashmir as part of India. You're creating a false dichotomy.

But Pakistan unable to give GB status even after 70 years. At least with J&K it have its own state government which had some more powers than other states in India.

 

[cricketjoshila]

yes LOC=IB is the only viable solution, I really feel for people of Gilgit Baltistan who are constitutionally suffering for last 70 years just because they were part of dogra state at the time of Partition. Accept LOC=IB make Gilgit Baltistan fifith province and get over with the issue.

It may be politically suicidal on either side to declare LoC as IB at one go. But even a cessation of all hostile activities and interference will be a good start. Thats how Indo China thing started. So even when in 1987 there was a danger of a conflict both sides were more interested in avoiding it. Here both sides are more interested in ratcheting up the issue.

Peace for couple of decades and next time no one will be interested in changing that status.

 

[Pakistanian]

But Pakistan unable to give GB status even after 70 years. At least with J&K it have its own state government which had some more powers than other states in India.

GB does have its own govt, it just isn't a province. Pakistan can make it a province and still support Kashmiri self determinism.

We don't have to use the UN resolutions to base Kashmiri freedom, their right to freedom is a human right.

 

[cricketjoshila]

Why should Pakistan throw Kashmir away to India? You're only bartering Kashmir for some economic incentives.

Also Pakistan can still give GB provincial status and also maintain that it doesn't recognize Kashmir as part of India. You're creating a false dichotomy.

Is Pakistan in any condition to get Kashmir from India? You speak as if the Pak Army is 1km away from srinagar.

GB was part of Kashmir state and any attempt to make it a province will mean the narrative of Pakistan of a "Free Kashmir" goes out of the window. It further loses international credibility and whatever support it has in J and K.

 

[TheLastGreatMan]

GB does have its own govt, it just isn't a province. Pakistan can make it a province and still support Kashmiri self determinism.

We don't have to use the UN resolutions to base Kashmiri freedom, their right to freedom is a human right.

Can make is different,when is the question.If something is not happened for past 70 years cant happen within few years.

 

[cricketjoshila]

GB does have its own govt, it just isn't a province. Pakistan can make it a province and still support Kashmiri self determinism.

We don't have to use the UN resolutions to base Kashmiri freedom, their right to freedom is a human right.

Under what law will Pakistan make GB its own province?

Pakistan is not some super power who can do whatever they want in a neighbouring country.

 

[Pakistanian]

Under what law will Pakistan make GB its own province?

Pakistan is not some super power who can do whatever they want in a neighbouring country.

All it needs is a constitutional amendment. It's already part of Pakistan for all practical purposes and lol @ "neighboring country" - you as an Indian need a visa just to visit GB, Pakistanis do not.

 

[amax]

Why should Pakistan throw Kashmir away to India? You're only bartering Kashmir for some economic incentives.

Also Pakistan can still give GB provincial status and also maintain that it doesn't recognize Kashmir as part of India. You're creating a false dichotomy.

kashmir is in India just like Gilgit Baltistan is in Pakistan , I would rather have talk with China on Shaksgham tract which Bhutto gifted to China , Wali Hunza claimed all this as part of Hunza and people there are very different from mainland chinese and closer to North Pakistanis. But china gave big stick to Pakistan.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trans-Karakoram_Tract