Imran Khan vs Kapil Dev : The Ultimate Comparison

[Hawkeye]

Some of the odd arguments above in favor of Kapils sr are unbelievable.

He was better just because of a better SR? Lol then Afridi is better than Tendulkar having much higher impact and SR.

Doesn't work like that. Kapils average was poor as compared to IK, as well as the skillset where he was a class below and inferior.

 

[Slog]

Some of the odd arguments above in favor of Kapils sr are unbelievable.

He was better just because of a better SR? Lol then Afridi is better than Tendulkar having much higher impact and SR.

Doesn't work like that. Kapils average was poor as compared to IK, as well as the skillset where he was a class below and inferior.

Yeah

Afridi averages same with strike rate of 110

And before everyone brings up eras, Afridi was averaging and striking same in 1996 as 2015 so clearly that wasnt an issue

 

[Slog]

He had a SR of 95 in the 1980s, when most batsmen did not have a SR of more than 70.

He was a very dangerous batsman and managed to take the game away from the opposition and influenced the outcome of the match more.

Imran was the more reliable batsman but he was just another consolidator in the team. He did not pose much threat to the opposition bowlers and had his limitations with the bat, which almost lost us the 92 semifinal.

Imran did have the ability to score faster and be more brutal. Probably not at Kapil's level perhaps but very similar. His record (at first look) doesnt reflect so because he didnt really need to and that wasnt the game plan. Not because of lack of ability.

For eg.at #8 his SR is 99.

 

[Hawkeye]

Imran did have the ability to score faster and be more brutal. Probably not at Kapil's level perhaps but very similar. His record (at first look) doesnt reflect so because he didnt really need to and that wasnt the game plan. Not because of lack of ability.

For eg.at #8 his SR is 99.

Yes, good post.

Agendas and biases sometimes force people to make up strange arguments.

If we use their own logic Afridi is the greatest ODI player alive.

It's about skillset, dynamism and consistency. Imran was better in all aspects. He had full ability to accelerate as well and did so whenevet required.

 

[ethan hunt]

Some of the odd arguments above in favor of Kapils sr are unbelievable.

He was better just because of a better SR? Lol then Afridi is better than Tendulkar having much higher impact and SR.

Doesn't work like that. Kapils average was poor as compared to IK, as well as the skillset where he was a class below and inferior.

So true .
Either afridi was a better batsman than kapil or both were mediocre , cant have it both ways .
Thats hypocricy.

 

[Mamoon]

Some of the odd arguments above in favor of Kapils sr are unbelievable.

He was better just because of a better SR? Lol then Afridi is better than Tendulkar having much higher impact and SR.

Doesn't work like that. Kapils average was poor as compared to IK, as well as the skillset where he was a class below and inferior.

Yeah

Afridi averages same with strike rate of 110

And before everyone brings up eras, Afridi was averaging and striking same in 1996 as 2015 so clearly that wasnt an issue

Problem with Afridi and Tendulkar comparison is that while Afridi was a slogger, Tendulkar was a master batsman.

Afridi had a superior SR but there was a massive gulf between the averages of the two players, which more than made up for Afridi's superior SR, and it's not as if Tendulkar's SR was poor.

SR goes out of the window when you are comparing a batsman with a 45 average compared to a batsman with a 23 average, especially when there is that small matter of the 45 averaging batsman scoring 49 hundreds as well.


Henceforth, this Tendulkar-Afridi analogy is extremely poor and illogical if you are trying to prove that Imran was a more useful ODI batsman than Kapil.

Neither Kapil nor Imran were top-tier batsmen.

They both had their strengths and weaknesses and were useful for the team. Imran was not a defensive player and could strike the ball as well, but his strength lied in his ability to absorb pressure and take the man of crisis role in the team.

Kapil on the other hand had more flair and was more explosive. He didn't have Imran's temperament but he had more ability with the bat.

An average of 10 runs is not considerable enough when you consider how much better Kapil's SR was especially when you look at the era in which he did it.

A 23 @95 batsman in ODIs is going to be much more impactful in any era compared to a 33 @72 batsman, especially when neither of them are top class ODI batsmen.

Yes both had different roles in the team but ultimately it is your playing style and strengths/weaknesses that dictate your batting position.

Imran was more of a grafter with the bat while Kapil was a more talented striker of the ball.

Since his batting was more impactful, Kapil managed to be the number one ranked ODI all-rounder for nearly a decade and Imran could not take that spot from him.

I don't know why some people have to try to prove that Imran was better in ODIs as well, when there isn't much of a case.

It has already been established that Imran was comfortably the better Test cricketer and since Test cricket holds more value, Imran is seen by everyone as a greater cricketer than Kapil.

Seems like that is not good enough for some people.

 

[Mamoon]

So true .
Either afridi was a better batsman than kapil or both were mediocre , cant have it both ways .
Thats hypocricy.

Refer to post #86. Sorry for not answering your post individually because I believe I have addressed most of the points already.

 

[Mamoon]

If Afridi had averaged around 35 for the bulk of his ODI career while maintaining his SR, he would have definitely have a had a strong case of being a superior ODI batsman to Tendulkar and having more influence on the outcome of the match.

However, when you are comparing an average of 45 to an average of 23, SR becomes irrelevant.

 

[street cricketer]

Some of the odd arguments above in favor of Kapils sr are unbelievable.

He was better just because of a better SR? Lol then Afridi is better than Tendulkar having much higher impact and SR.

Doesn't work like that. Kapils average was poor as compared to IK, as well as the skillset where he was a class below and inferior.

Just maybe, just maybe because Afridi is a lower order batsman while Tendulkar is an opener.

 

[Mamoon]

Yes, good post.

Agendas and biases sometimes force people to make up strange arguments.

If we use their own logic Afridi is the greatest ODI player alive.

It's about skillset, dynamism and consistency. Imran was better in all aspects. He had full ability to accelerate as well and did so whenevet required.

Kapil was more dynamic than Imran, and Imran couldn't accelerate whenever required. For example, his defensive batting nearly cost us the semifinal in 92 before Inzamam played the innings of his life, along with a superb cameo from Miandad.

Had Inzamam and Miandad not played those innings, Imran would have taken a lot of flak for his innings in the 92 semifinal, where he brought the innings to a halt and then got out after consuming all those deliveries when the match was in the balance.

 

[Mamoon]

Just maybe, just maybe because Afridi is a lower order batsman while Tendulkar is an opener.

It is not about the position even.

Tendulkar's average is so superior that SR becomes irrelevant. Also, we are speaking of a batsman with 49 hundreds compared to 6.

Both Imran and Kapil had just 1 ODI hundreds, and Imran's average is only 10 runs higher which does not make up for Kapil's far superior SR especially when you look at the general SR in his era.

Also, Kapil has played one of the greatest, if not the greatest World Cup innings of all time.

Kapil is a superior ODI batsman to Imran, no matter how you look at it.

 

[ethan hunt]

If Afridi had averaged around 35 for the bulk of his ODI career while maintaining his SR, he would have definitely have a had a strong case of being a superior ODI batsman to Tendulkar and having more influence on the outcome of the match.

However, when you are comparing an average of 45 to an average of 23, SR becomes irrelevant.

Do you rate virender sehwag higher than sachin tendulkar ??

As for the point about impact , i dont think odi ranking measure things like impact and other qualitative factors .Correct me if i am wrong.

 

[street cricketer]

I don't know why some people have to try to prove that Imran was better in ODIs as well, when there isn't much of a case.

It has already been established that Imran was comfortably the better Test cricketer and since Test cricket holds more value, Imran is seen by everyone as a greater cricketer than Kapil.

Seems like that is not good enough for some people.

This lmao..

I've never come across an Indian who really rates Kapil as the better test cricketer (well, except Feroz bhai).

I've always believed Imran was the better test all rounder while Kapil was the better odi all rounder. Both have a case for being the GOAT all rounder in their respective formats. But Imran was the better overall all rounder nonetheless as Test cricket is valued more than LOI cricket, not to mention his Test captaincy exploits.

But seems like a lot of Imran fans here don't accept even that. It's very hard to argue with people when they firmly believe that a player is undoubtedly the greatest ever to have walked on a cricket field while everybody is inferior (believe me, I've encountered such fans a lot in India as well).

 

[ethan hunt]

It is not about the position even.

Tendulkar's average is so superior that SR becomes irrelevant. Also, we are speaking of a batsman with 49 hundreds compared to 6.

Both Imran and Kapil had just 1 ODI hundreds, and Imran's average is only 10 runs higher which does not make up for Kapil's far superior SR especially when you look at the general SR in his era.

Also, Kapil has played one of the greatest, if not the greatest World Cup innings of all time.

Kapil is a superior ODI batsman to Imran, no matter how you look at it.

True about afridi and sachin . But in imran and kapil's case we are comparing a batsman who has 5 more fifties from about 60 less games .
Also choosing to buckle down is an admirable trait , there are plenty of innungs where he did go for his shots but not always.

 

[Slog]

It is not about the position even.

Tendulkar's average is so superior that SR becomes irrelevant. Also, we are speaking of a batsman with 49 hundreds compared to 6.

Both Imran and Kapil had just 1 ODI hundreds, and Imran's average is only 10 runs higher which does not make up for Kapil's far superior SR especially when you look at the general SR in his era.

Also, Kapil has played one of the greatest, if not the greatest World Cup innings of all time.

Kapil is a superior ODI batsman to Imran, no matter how you look at it.

Most would agree with this analysis. However who is the superior ODI bowler is a toss up and Imrans WC record may tilt that towards him

The point is that Imran was a very good if not great ODI player as well and certainly comparable to Kapil. The gulf isn't as great as people here are making it out.

On the other hand Imran is far far ahead of Kapil in test cricket and in every skill.

So to claim that Kapil was as far ahead of Imran in ODIs as Imran was to Kapil in Tests is not true

 

[street cricketer]

Most would agree with this analysis. However who is the superior ODI bowler is a toss up and Imrans WC record may tilt that towards him

The point is that Imran was a very good if not great ODI player as well and certainly comparable to Kapil. The gulf isn't as great as people here are making it out.

On the other hand Imran is far far ahead of Kapil in test cricket and in every skill.

So to claim that Kapil was as far ahead of Imran in ODIs as Imran was to Kapil in Tests is not true

Imran had a great world cup in 87 with the ball. But other than that, the sample set isn't really big with just 2 or 4 matches in the other earlier world cups with around 5 wickets. He didn't bowl in the 83 world cup where Kapil was one of the better bowlers picking around 12 wickets. In the 92 world cup where both played a good number of matches, Kapil was slightly better.

In all tournaments however, there is little to separate between the two (Imran averages 24 and Kapil 25). But in the knockout stages of all tournaments, Kapil is much better (Imran averages around 36 while Kapil averages 19, both have played a sizeable amount of matches as well, so the average is not skewed).

Moreover Kapil has a higher peak rating in ODIs.

Kapil also has a higher average rating in ODIs.

Kapil was ranked higher for a longer period than Imran.

Kapil was ranked the no.1 odi bowler as well while the highest rank Imran ever achieved was 4th.

I don't see how Imran was a better ODI bowler than Kapil.

 

[Hitman]

Imran was comfortably better than Kapil in Test cricket. In fact Imran was better than Botham and Hadlee as well.

 

[Feroz Rawther]

This lmao..

I've never come across an Indian who really rates Kapil as the better test cricketer (well, except Feroz bhai).

Not again into further debates w.r.t topic as i have already explained my reasons.. But it is not me alone who believes that at least both are on the same level as all rounders. I have visited other sites too where i have seen Kapil being placed very higher along with Imran & some times even better to Imran.The reasons too are more closer to what i have stated.Especially off late
after taking into consideration the moral aspects of the matters too. And certainly not like' Imran way way ahead ' like several PPers claim here.

 

[jusarrived]

Some of the odd arguments above in favor of Kapils sr are unbelievable.

He was better just because of a better SR? Lol then Afridi is better than Tendulkar having much higher impact and SR.

Doesn't work like that. Kapils average was poor as compared to IK, as well as the skillset where he was a class below and inferior.

Skillset ? Lol Imran the batsmen was not exactly skilful , statistically better but no one can deny that Kapil was far superior batting talent .

 

[The Last Of The Stars]

Imran Khan > Kapil Dev , in both the formats.

Imran Khan averages better than Kapil with both the bat and the ball in ODIs.

 

[The Last Of The Stars]

Skillset ? Lol Imran the batsmen was not exactly skilful , statistically better but no one can deny that Kapil was far superior batting talent .

It doesn't matter who was the superior batting talent, in the end it's all about application. Kapil averaged 23, which is very ordinary.

 

[Balthazar]

The fact that Kapil was ranked number 1 all rounder for over a decade tells you who was the better ODI player, and not only that but he was ranked number one in bowling category too.

 

[Chrish]

Imran was comfortably better than Kapil in Test cricket. In fact Imran was better than Botham and Hadlee as well.

highly debatable..

 

[Slog]

The fact that Kapil was ranked number 1 all rounder for over a decade tells you who was the better ODI player, and not only that but he was ranked number one in bowling category too.

Do share evidence of this Bowling category claim

 

[Slog]

Not again into further debates w.r.t topic as i have already explained my reasons.. But it is not me alone who believes that at least both are on the same level as all rounders. I have visited other sites too where i have seen Kapil being placed very higher along with Imran & some times even better to Imran.The reasons too are more closer to what i have stated.Especially off late
after taking into consideration the moral aspects of the matters too. And certainly not like' Imran way way ahead ' like several PPers claim here.

This other site must be some Indian cricket site filled with only Indians I bet. In that parallel universe Zaheer Khan is as good as Wasim Akram as well so now it makes sense why you are steadfastly Clinging on to your ridiculous claims

 

[Slog]

Skillset ? Lol Imran the batsmen was not exactly skilful , statistically better but no one can deny that Kapil was far superior batting talent .

With average of 23? Or is it 25?

 

[Sachin136]

Do share evidence of this Bowling category claim

http://www.relianceiccrankings.com/playerdisplay/odi/bowling/?id=1850

 

[Ab Fan]

Kapil was a better odi player. Imran was better in tests.Overall, it's Imran.

 

[Feroz Rawther]

This other site must be some Indian cricket site filled with only Indians I bet. In that parallel universe Zaheer Khan is as good as Wasim Akram as well so now it makes sense why you are steadfastly Clinging on to your ridiculous claims

So what?Can't Indians have different opinions against what you people think?
Or is it that, just because they are Indians they might be favouring Kapil due to blind nationalism and nothing sensible other than that ? You must not forget
that several of their reasons are more or less the same as that to what i have put in my msg:s earlier in my topic like bowling support strength, longevity, work density, moral side of matters etc etc. It is just that they are not elaborating or numerically evaluating the effects of such factors on Kapil's career stats as a whole to the extent at which i have done here in my posts(may be they would have those in their minds).That's all.

 

[Indian_Supporter]

Imran was a better all rounder in tests and Kapil was in ODIs.

Kapil was more gutsy and revolutionist as a cricketer though. His win in the 83 WC broke the monopoly of WI cricket and English colonization. The cricket craze we see in Asia today, the fan following and money we see in Indian cricket today was due to that win. Kapil was the revolutionist in that sense.




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[Anfield]

Kapil Dev was a tailender who could slog a bit. That's it..

That's his average against every country

Vs Aus 20.
vs Eng 30
vs NZ 33
vs Pak 15
vs Saf 17
vs Pak 20
vs WI 24.

He was someone who could slop few runs in the final overs, nothing more than that. His stats are skewed by one good innings against mighty Zimbabwe.

On the other hand Imran Khan's averages against most countries are quite decent

vs Aus 36
vs Eng 29
vs Ind 22
vs Nz 47
vs SA 34
vs SL 45
vs WI 33

Imran Khan's away average is 34 and Kapil's away average is 20 (LOL)

Imran Khan averages 35 in the WCs and despite Kapil's heroics against ZImbabwe he averages 37 in the wc that means he has been a failure in rest of the matches.

IK's overall SR of 73 in that era isn't bad by any means either. Ik triumphs Kapil in batting easily..

Now bowling..

Kapil

vs Aus 28
vs Eng 28
vs NZ 28
vs PAk 27
vs Saf 31
vs SL 26
vs WI 29

Imran Khan..
vs Aus 29
vs Eng 23
vs India 23
vs NZ 37
vs SAF 17
vs WI 29
SL 28

Imran Khan averages 19.26 in the WC with the ball and Kapil average 32 in the wc.

Not much difference in team vs team bowling averages between two players but Imran Khan's performances in the WC has been head and shoulders above Kapil's.

Imran Khan is clearly a better performer than Kapil in ODIs as well. And we all know there is no comparison whatsoever in Tests. Kapil merely was a slogger.
.

 

[ethan hunt]

Imran was a better all rounder in tests and Kapil was in ODIs.

Kapil was more gutsy and revolutionist as a cricketer though. His win in the 83 WC broke the monopoly of WI cricket and English colonization. The cricket craze we see in Asia today, the fan following and money we see in Indian cricket today was due to that win. Kapil was the revolutionist in that sense.




Sent from my GT-I9505 using Tapatalk

How did it break English colonization ??
When you speak about Asia i can assure you that while he is a respected figure in Pakistan he has nothing to do with the craze of cricket in Pakistan.
Pakistan had imran at the time and wasim after that who were bigger global stars .

 

[ethan hunt]

Kapil Dev was a tailender who could slog a bit. That's it..

That's his average against every country

Vs Aus 20.
vs Eng 30
vs NZ 33
vs Pak 15
vs Saf 17
vs Pak 20
vs WI 24.

He was someone who could slop few runs in the final overs, nothing more than that. His stats are skewed by one good innings against mighty Zimbabwe.

On the other hand Imran Khan's averages against most countries are quite decent

vs Aus 36
vs Eng 29
vs Ind 22
vs Nz 47
vs SA 34
vs SL 45
vs WI 33

Imran Khan's away average is 34 and Kapil's away average is 20 (LOL)

Imran Khan averages 35 in the WCs and despite Kapil's heroics against ZImbabwe he averages 37 in the wc that means he has been a failure in rest of the matches.

IK's overall SR of 73 in that era isn't bad by any means either. Ik triumphs Kapil in batting easily..

Now bowling..

Kapil

vs Aus 28
vs Eng 28
vs NZ 28
vs PAk 27
vs Saf 31
vs SL 26
vs WI 29

Imran Khan..
vs Aus 29
vs Eng 23
vs India 23
vs NZ 37
vs SAF 17
vs WI 29
SL 28

Imran Khan averages 19.26 in the WC with the ball and Kapil average 32 in the wc.

Not much difference in team vs team bowling averages between two players but Imran Khan's performances in the WC has been head and shoulders above Kapil's.

Imran Khan is clearly a better performer than Kapil in ODIs as well. And we all know there is no comparison whatsoever in Tests. Kapil merely was a slogger.
.

Averages of 15 and 20 against good bowling attacks ?? . His ODI Stats are worse the more you dissect them.

 

[Indian_Supporter]

How did it break English colonization ??
When you speak about Asia i can assure you that while he is a respected figure in Pakistan he has nothing to do with the craze of cricket in Pakistan.
Pakistan had imran at the time and wasim after that who were bigger global stars .

Cricket before 83 WC was very different in Asia to what it is now. Hardly any following and it has same status as hockey. Asian teams were just used to be a mere participant but everyone knew they would loose.

After 83 WC, the fan following increased. Not only in India but across sub comtinent. More and more player inspired to become cricketers and emulate what Kapil did. Even Imran wanted to achieve that feat. Legacy of that win gave upcoming generation of cricketers like SRT, Wasim, Dravid etc.

With the increase in fan following, ACB demanded the next WC to be hosted out of Eng, a thought which was unheard of since 83. Eden Garden hosted Aust-Eng final with an attendence of 100k people.

In 92 Pak won the cup and cricket became even more famoust in Sun continent. Next WC was hosted in SC again and SL won.

Now Indian cricket market and board sweep the floor with what English has to offer.

It all started with 1983. So yes Kapil is the most revolutionary cricketer from Asia.

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[Tusker]

Cricket before 83 WC was very different in Asia to what it is now. Hardly any following and it has same status as hockey. Asian teams were just used to be a mere participant but everyone knew they would loose.

This is absolutely categorically not true. Almost all Test matches would be sold out and even Ranji matches would have very big crowds. And all this with no marketing and obviously no TV Coverage. Just Radio coverage.

What 1983 did was that it put greater emphasis on ODI cricket and it encouraged more cricketers from the non-traditional centers to take up cricket and follow in Kapils footsteps.

 

[Anfield]

Averages of 15 and 20 against good bowling attacks ?? . His ODI Stats are worse the more you dissect them.

Kapil wasn't anything more than a slogger. A bit better version of Wasim Akram in batting.

 

[Buffet]

Kapil wasn't anything more than a slogger. A bit better version of Wasim Akram in batting.

Sloggers can't play knocks like,

100(95) against Roberts, Holding, Marshall
98(97) against Roberts, Holding & Marshall
129(180) against Donald & Schultz
89(55) against Botham & Willis
.....

I saw fair bit of his batting. He was an explosive batsman, but batted low for his ability. Indians should have done better by having him bat higher.

If you pick a slogger then you will be hard pressed to find them scoring runs even once or twice againt ATG bowling units.

 

[Buffet]

On topic: IK was comfortably a better test all rounder than Kapil.

 

[Anfield]

Sloggers can't play knocks like,

100(95) against Roberts, Holding, Marshall
98(97) against Roberts, Holding & Marshall
129(180) against Donald & Schultz
89(55) against Botham & Willis
.....

I saw fair bit of his batting. He was an explosive batsman, but batted low for his ability. Indians should have done better by having him bat higher.

If you pick a slogger then you will be hard pressed to find them scoring runs even once or twice againt ATG bowling units.

I regard Afridi as a slogger and he has played quite a few good knocks too. But overall stats are average and proves him to be an unreliable batsman just like Kapil was.

 

[Buffet]

I regard Afridi as a slogger and he has played quite a few good knocks too.

Sloggers can surely score runs at times, but they can hardly produce many gun knocks against the likes of Marshall, Roberts, Donald, Holding etc...

How much did you actually see Kapil's batting? If you are simply going by stats to derive that conclusion then it's a wrong conclusion.

 

[ZoabKhan]

This topic is an embarrassment to Imran Khan.
A more fair comparison to Kapil Dev would be Abdul Razzler.

 

[Bilal7]

And Imran could never play an innings of 175 like Kapil did.

England > Zimbabwe. Finals > Any other match-situation.

Skillset ? Lol Imran the batsmen was not exactly skilful , statistically better but no one can deny that Kapil was far superior batting talent .

Kapil had more shots for sure. But is Afridi a more skillful batsman than Younis?

Kapil Dev was a tailender who could slog a bit. That's it..

That's his average against every country

Vs Aus 20.
vs Eng 30
vs NZ 33
vs Pak 15
vs Saf 17
vs Pak 20
vs WI 24.

He was someone who could slop few runs in the final overs, nothing more than that. His stats are skewed by one good innings against mighty Zimbabwe.

On the other hand Imran Khan's averages against most countries are quite decent

vs Aus 36
vs Eng 29
vs Ind 22
vs Nz 47
vs SA 34
vs SL 45
vs WI 33

Imran Khan's away average is 34 and Kapil's away average is 20 (LOL)

Imran Khan averages 35 in the WCs and despite Kapil's heroics against ZImbabwe he averages 37 in the wc that means he has been a failure in rest of the matches.

IK's overall SR of 73 in that era isn't bad by any means either. Ik triumphs Kapil in batting easily..

Now bowling..

Kapil

vs Aus 28
vs Eng 28
vs NZ 28
vs PAk 27
vs Saf 31
vs SL 26
vs WI 29

Imran Khan..
vs Aus 29
vs Eng 23
vs India 23
vs NZ 37
vs SAF 17
vs WI 29
SL 28

Imran Khan averages 19.26 in the WC with the ball and Kapil average 32 in the wc.

Not much difference in team vs team bowling averages between two players but Imran Khan's performances in the WC has been head and shoulders above Kapil's.

Imran Khan is clearly a better performer than Kapil in ODIs as well. And we all know there is no comparison whatsoever in Tests. Kapil merely was a slogger.
.

Imran Khan was the better ODI allrounder, but the gap in this format isn't as big as their gap in test cricket.

This topic is an embarrassment to Imran Khan.
A more fair comparison to Kapil Dev would be Abdul Razzler.

Razzaqa and Afridi are definitely comparable to Kapil in ODIs.

 

[The_Odd_One]

Kapil has possibly the greatest innings in a world cup. And what about Imran in the world cup?
Averaged 30 with a SR of 52. Was not even in the top 5 run scorers for Pakistan. Only had 7 wickets at an Average of 35 throughout out the world cup.

Imran was 40 in 1992 WC.

Check his overall WC performances, batting average of 35 and bowling average of 19 is ATG material.

 

[big_gamer007]

[MENTION=138463]Slog[/MENTION]

By making this thread you are just giving a platform to some people to ridicule on an Indian great Kapil Dev.. If that was your motive you have succeeded.. If that was not your motive why on earth you made this thread??

 

[Bilal7]

Imran was 40 in 1992 WC.

Check his overall WC performances, batting average of 35 and bowling average of 19 is ATG material.

Funny how some hypocrites are totally ignoring Kapil's poor WC numbers, yet are the first ones to bring WC performances up when the player being discussed is Amla, Inzamam or de Villiers.

 

[The_Odd_One]

Kapil was more dynamic than Imran, and Imran couldn't accelerate whenever required. For example, his defensive batting nearly cost us the semifinal in 92 before Inzamam played the innings of his life, along with a superb cameo from Miandad.

Had Inzamam and Miandad not played those innings, Imran would have taken a lot of flak for his innings in the 92 semifinal, where he brought the innings to a halt and then got out after consuming all those deliveries when the match was in the balance.

I do not think you have ever watch Imran bat in a live match. Here is one example:

http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/65444.html

Imran scored 67 not-out on 41 balls vs WI in Brisbane, Australia in 1989. And do you know which bowlers he faced?

Marshall
Ambrose
Benjamin
Bishop

Imran was a very good hitter and he could accelerate whenever it was needed.

In 1992, he was 40, so understandably, he did not retain his hitting ability.

In Imran's days, most of the batsmen batted with SR of 60s and 70s. Check the SR of some of the ODI greats like Greenidge, Miandad, etc. Imran's SR was either better or comparable to them.

Pakistani batsmen used to play slow until the 40th over and then in the last 10 overs they used to go after the bowlers. This is the main reason that their overall SR stayed low even if they slogged in the last few years because they had been batting with SR in 30s and 40s initially.

Here is another example of Imran scoring 45 of 31 balls against in 1985:

Marshall
Garner
Walsh
Holding

http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/64268.html

 

[Belawal2014]

[MENTION=138463]Slog[/MENTION]

By making this thread you are just giving a platform to some people to ridicule on an Indian great Kapil Dev.. If that was your motive you have succeeded.. If that was not your motive why on earth you made this thread??

He made it after getting in to a heated discussion with a Kapil fan.

 

[The_Odd_One]

More matches for those who think Imran was a tuk-tuk.

25*(9) vs WI = SR 277
37(19) vs WI = SR 194
29*(20) vs Aus = SR 145

I can provide many more examples but I hope the message has been conveyed.

 

[The_Odd_One]

Funny how some hypocrites are totally ignoring Kapil's poor WC numbers, yet are the first ones to bring WC performances up when the player being discussed is Amla, Inzamam or de Villiers.

Anybody who criticizes Imran for his 1992 WC performance has no clue how Cricket was played in those days.

Imran had balls to come and bat at #3 in both semi-final and final because he knew that he had a fragile and inexperienced batting line-up. Instead of hiding behind the youngsters, he took the responsibility with Miandad to handle the pressure and provided the platform for other batsman to cash on it.

 

[Bilal7]

Anybody who criticizes Imran for his 1992 WC performance has no clue how Cricket was played in those days.

Imran had balls to come and bat at #3 in both semi-final and final because he knew that he had a fragile and inexperienced batting line-up. Instead of hiding behind the youngsters, he took the responsibility with Miandad to handle the pressure and provided the platform for other batsman to cash on it.

Exactly. Imran played the same role in the semi, that Misbah played in the Mohali semi-final. Only difference is that Imran's backing of Inzamam played dividends for him but Misbah had no one to support him.

Imran's innings in the final was absolutely superb, as as you mentioned, came from the #3 position, showing that Imran was good enough to bat in the top order.

 

[Bilal7]

More matches for those who think Imran was a tuk-tuk.

25*(9) vs WI = SR 277
37(19) vs WI = SR 194
29*(20) vs Aus = SR 145

I can provide many more examples but I hope the message has been conveyed.

Imran could certainly strike them big whenever the situation demanded it. More often than not thoug, scoring a 35 at a SR of 75 was more important than scoring a 20 at a SR of 100.

 

[Hawkeye]

Problem with Afridi and Tendulkar comparison is that while Afridi was a slogger, Tendulkar was a master batsman.

Afridi had a superior SR but there was a massive gulf between the averages of the two players, which more than made up for Afridi's superior SR, and it's not as if Tendulkar's SR was poor.

The thing is, Kapil was indeed a tail-ender type slogger who couldn't perform on most occasions, just like Afridi. A few fluke knocks don't mean anything, Afridi has great performances too - but his overall average reflects how pathetic he was.

Just like Kapil. And there's a big gulf in average of both, 10 points isn't a joke.

Also, you make it sound like Imran didn't play any great ODI knocks, he absolutely did. Actually, MUCH MUCH better performer in ODIs against the top sides than Kapil.. read facts below.

The only "argument" you have is that Imran Khan played a slow innings in 92 WC, which btw was need of the hour and had it not been played, Inzi wouldn't have been able to come and score freely.

You have only one game, ignoring all the other top performances by IK in ODIs.

The posts I'm quoting below are the ones which reveal the total picture and the facts. Don't try to put Kapil and Imran Khan in the same boat by blindly quoting SR:

Kapil Dev was a tailender who could slog a bit. That's it..

That's his average against every country

Vs Aus 20.
vs Eng 30
vs NZ 33
vs Pak 15
vs Saf 17
vs Pak 20
vs WI 24.

He was someone who could slop few runs in the final overs, nothing more than that. His stats are skewed by one good innings against mighty Zimbabwe.

On the other hand Imran Khan's averages against most countries are quite decent

vs Aus 36
vs Eng 29
vs Ind 22
vs Nz 47
vs SA 34
vs SL 45
vs WI 33

Imran Khan's away average is 34 and Kapil's away average is 20 (LOL)

Imran Khan averages 35 in the WCs and despite Kapil's heroics against ZImbabwe he averages 37 in the wc that means he has been a failure in rest of the matches.

IK's overall SR of 73 in that era isn't bad by any means either. Ik triumphs Kapil in batting easily..

Now bowling..

Kapil

vs Aus 28
vs Eng 28
vs NZ 28
vs PAk 27
vs Saf 31
vs SL 26
vs WI 29

Imran Khan..
vs Aus 29
vs Eng 23
vs India 23
vs NZ 37
vs SAF 17
vs WI 29
SL 28

Imran Khan averages 19.26 in the WC with the ball and Kapil average 32 in the wc.

Not much difference in team vs team bowling averages between two players but Imran Khan's performances in the WC has been head and shoulders above Kapil's.

Imran Khan is clearly a better performer than Kapil in ODIs as well. And we all know there is no comparison whatsoever in Tests. Kapil merely was a slogger.
.

More matches for those who think Imran was a tuk-tuk.

25*(9) vs WI = SR 277
37(19) vs WI = SR 194
29*(20) vs Aus = SR 145

I can provide many more examples but I hope the message has been conveyed.

 

[Tusker]

Slogger ehh ??

http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/63336.html

http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/63339.html

Bowlers involved in those 2 matches :

Marshall
Holding
Garner
Roberts
Winston Davis

 

[Romali_rotti]

Imran was the better overall player no one would deny that. But Dev's batting was on another level, Imran was an honest trier who made the most of his limited batting abilities. However Dev was a talented carefree player who just didnt giva damn. He was the only batsmen of his ERA to go to WI and score a 100 with a 100 stike rate facing the legendary WI bowlers, that sort of assault was unheard of back in those days.. Sunil Gavaskar put it perfectly when he once said in an interview: Someone of Kapil Dev's batting talent should have scored atleast 10,000 test runs, which seems kinda true as he scored 5000 runs with a care free, I dont care attitude...

 

[Romali_rotti]

In before Junaids, aka another Pakistani, comes in and says; The only reason why Dev scored that blistering 100 in WI was because WI bowlers werent trying lol....

 

[Romali_rotti]

Out of all the allrounders:

1) Imran
2) Dev
3) Hadlee
4) Botham..

Botham gets last place because he never showed up vs the WI (the best side of his era), he couldnt hold a bat vs them nor could he bowl vs them.

 

[Suleiman]

If I needed 60 off 30 I would send Kapil to bat.

But if I had few cornered tigers who needed to be uncornered, I'd choose Immy.

 

[AlizeeFan]

Tests
Imran

Inning 126
Runs 3807
100s 6
50s 18

Kapil Dev
Innings 126
Runs 3668
100s 5
50s 21

 

[AlizeeFan]

The thing is, Kapil was indeed a tail-ender type slogger who couldn't perform on most occasions, just like Afridi. A few fluke knocks don't mean anything, Afridi has great performances too - but his overall average reflects how pathetic he was.

Just like Kapil. And there's a big gulf in average of both, 10 points isn't a joke.

Also, you make it sound like Imran didn't play any great ODI knocks, he absolutely did. Actually, MUCH MUCH better performer in ODIs against the top sides than Kapil.. read facts below.

The only "argument" you have is that Imran Khan played a slow innings in 92 WC, which btw was need of the hour and had it not been played, Inzi wouldn't have been able to come and score freely.

You have only one game, ignoring all the other top performances by IK in ODIs.

The posts I'm quoting below are the ones which reveal the total picture and the facts. Don't try to put Kapil and Imran Khan in the same boat by blindly quoting SR:

Generally there is huge difference between run production of a tailender and a proper batsman.

Imran played 151 innings and scored 3709 runs

Kapil Dev had scored 3157 runs in same number of innings.

For first 111 innings, Kapil Dev had more runs than Imran had less runs than Kapil Dev. Kapil Dev had scored 2561 runs at SR of 105 while Imran had scored 2502 at SR of 74.

That's first 73% of Imran's career. You don't have a tailender with more runs such huge difference in SR of master batsman for most of the career.

However Imran really excelled as a batsman in last few years of his career and scored 1207 runs in last 40 innings, while Kapil could score only 594 runs in his next 40 innings.

 

[gattaca]

Imran khan had his evil twin helping him.. Reverse swing.

 

[MMHS]

Not even a contest in Test, but Kapil's career stats were inferior as he dragged his career for 3 more years. At his prime, Kapil was a champion cricketer.

But at his prime for almost a decade Khan averaged 50 with bat & less than 20 with ball - that too in the toughest decade of cricket history, 80s. This is absolutely unmatchable - add to that he lost his best 2/3 years for injury. Kapil is one of my most favourite cricketer, but the comparison in Test is uncalled for, it's not a contest & replace anyone with Kapil, I'll write the same.

These two are the top 2 ODI all rounders for me, but if I were forced to pick one, I'll take Kapil.

In T20, had it been there, Kapil would have been one of top 2/3 players ever; while Khan might not even played T20; but he would have been also among top 2/4 pkayers - those who watched cricket on statsguru don't have any idea what an aggressive Imran could do with bat.

One interesting point I should make - which surprisingly nobody noticed, and that happens when everything is cheap. People look at the SR in the aggressive note only, but there is another side of the coin - when cricket was beautiful, there was another parameter - grinding out a drawn & against quite good opponents. Instantly I can recall 5 Tests

MCG 1983 - Imran wasn't able to bowl, played simply as batsman and he saved the Test against Lillee with 72 & 74* - batted for 11 hours.

Kalkata '87 - I think IND set 350 in 95 overs for PAK to win, Khan came at 30/3 or so, batted for an ugly 60, for 6 hours, literally blocking Maninder from one end.

Karachi '86 - against that WI side, he took 12 wickets & then batted 65 overs on day 5 for an ugly 45* (?), out of 125/8 to end the series 1-1

Lahore 90 - again WI & chasing 350+ he batted out the last day for 70* or so, to keep it 1-1 again, last 3 hours protecting Masood Anwar from Malcolm Marshall & Curtley Ambrose, Ian Bish & Courtney Walsh was also there.

Finally, at Adelaide - facing a deficit of 89, Wasim joined him at 91/6 - then they put 300 for AUS to chase, Khan came at 20/3 or so & batted 9 hours for 135 - indeed his SR 'll be poor in StatGuru.

 

[ethan hunt]

People are still conveniently ignoring kapil dev's poor Odi averages of 15 , 17 and 20 against the better bowling sides of his time .
Strike rate isnt even relevant if you are going to slog your way to 15 and get out.

 

[street cricketer]

People are still conveniently ignoring kapil dev's poor Odi averages of 15 , 17 and 20 against the better bowling sides of his time .
Strike rate isnt even relevant if you are going to slog your way to 15 and get out.

Oh bhai, it's confirmed that Kapil was a legside slogger and an average trundler..

Don't sweat it bhai, Imran was the greatest ever

 

[Bilal7]

People are still conveniently ignoring kapil dev's poor Odi averages of 15 , 17 and 20 against the better bowling sides of his time .
Strike rate isnt even relevant if you are going to slog your way to 15 and get out.

But Kapil had punjabi aggression.

Afridi was born on the wrong side of the border.

 

[ethan hunt]

Oh bhai, it's confirmed that Kapil was a legside slogger and an average trundler..

Don't sweat it bhai, Imran was the greatest ever

Naa Imran isnt even the greatest ODI cricketer from pakistan.
Certainly better than kapil though.

 

[street cricketer]

Naa Imran isnt even the greatest ODI cricketer from pakistan.
Certainly better than kapil though.

Na bhai, we are talking about all rounders.

Imran is easily the greatest ever!

 

[jusarrived]

England >

Kapil had more shots for sure. But is Afridi a more skillful batsman than Younis?

Imran had no where close to the impact YK had as a batsmen , he was more like Misbah .

 

[Feroz Rawther]

basically Imran was a grafter & Kapil an aggresive player as their str: rate reveals in both tests & one dayers. Some people have here put forward some aggressive knocks played by Imran. In the same manner i can put some defensive knocks by Kapil too as and when required.
Here are some inns of Kapil & their str: rates
45*(82) 54.87
41(69) 59.42
60(97) 61.85
66(117) 56.41
56(83) 67.46
60(95) 63.15
129(180) 71.66

All the above inns were played at critical situations where team needed them the most. That means Kapil Dev
was not only an out and out aggressor as people think.If needed he could play defensive role too. In short
both these players had their basic nature of playing.But when required, on occassions they could play the other way too. That doesn't take off their basic nature of playing. Kapil was an aggressor & Imran was a grafter.Must not forget that even defensive batsmen like Dravid, Kallis & Chanderpaul has played aggresive inns on occassions thru out their careers. That doesn't change the basic nature of their playing.

 

[RamLakhan]

A bowler being in a weak bowling line up means his opposition team more often that not ends up remaining either achieving huge scores by either getting all out or by only losing a certain amount of wickets. On the other hand, him being a part of a very strong bowling unit means the chance of getting the opposition team all out for cheap scores twice in a test increases many fold.
Hence more chances of getting wkts & more chances of him not going for bucket loads of runs.

Terrific point! Often people make this mistake. Not consider the team while judging the players.

Other examples: 1) Sachin is criticized for not playing up to Vivian's level (not considering Vivian had a strong team to back his instincts)
2) A contrasting example is: Dhoni is successful only because he has a strong team! It is because of others achievement, while he is nothing! This is the other extreme of how a player is criticized/undermined due to "team"

 

[Feroz Rawther]

Terrific point! Often people make this mistake. Not consider the team while judging the players.

Other examples: 1) Sachin is criticized for not playing up to Vivian's level (not considering Vivian had a strong team to back his instincts)
2) A contrasting example is: Dhoni is successful only because he has a strong team! It is because of others achievement, while he is nothing! This is the other extreme of how a player is criticized/undermined due to "team"

We can call it lack of support bowling. And this is exactly one of the main reasons (work load,longevity & fair play being the others) i condider Kapil a better all rounder to Imran.

 

[Slog]

And lol NO neutral supporter thinks Kapil is better than Imran so stop making imaginary friends

Kapil is better than Imran in the same parallel universe where Inzamam is better than Tendulkar

 

[Sidilicious]

Other than Feroze Rawther, I dont think anyone believes that Kapil was a greater test all rounder than Imran. I think we can safely conclude that IK was the better Test Allrounder between the two, the best from Asia, and the 2nd or 3rd best overall.

But, I will concentrate on ODIs here. I believe that Kapil was a slightly better ODI all rounder than IK. I will base my argument on ICC rankings because
1. ICC rankings take into account the quality of the opposition. A 50 against a tougher opposition will be ranked higher than a 50 against a weaker opposition.
2. ICC rankings give more consideration to World cups than they do to bi-laterals

Bowling



The following observations can be made from the bowling graph
1. Kapil Dev's rating rarely went below 750 after 1982, whereas IK's rating crossed 750 only once in his career in 87-88.
2. Even though close, Kapil was consistently rated higher than IK as an ODI bowler throughout his career. I understand that ICC rankings are not everything, but being ranked higher than a player for most of ones career tells a significant story.
3. Kapil's best ever rank was 1, whereas IK's was 4. I wont go too much into this, as a player can reach rank 1 just by having an unbelievable series or 2. So, this could be anomaly. But, Kapil being ranked consistenly higher as a bowler throughout their careers can lead to the conclusion that Kapil was slightly a better ODI bowler than Imran.

Batting


1. After 1982, when both these players came in to their own, Kapil was rated higher than IK for most go their careers. Between 1982 and 1989 Kapil was clearly the better bat between the 2. Only at the end of 1989, when Kapil's batting declined, and Imran's batting came into its own when Imran overtook Kapil as the batsman. So, during their careers, Kapil was a better bat for 7 years, and Imran for 3.
2. This is also visible in the best ever rankings. Kapil's came in 1983, whereas IK's in 1990.
3. Again Kapil's highest ranking is that of 6, whereas IK's is 10. But again, I wont go too much into this, as one can reach a higher ranking by having a great series or 2.

Again, in conclusion, Kapil ranked consistently better ODI bat than IK for most of their careers. So, Kapil can be considered the better ODI bat between the two.

Overall All-rounder

Given the above bowling and batting rankings, the all rounder rankings should show a similar picture. Kapil being ranked higher between 82 and 89, and IK slightly higher between 1989 and 92. And thats what the All round ratings show



1. Kapil was never rated below 500 between 83 and 89 (other than a small blip in 87). Between 89 an 91, Kapil was rated just below 500, after which he had a steep decline.
2. Imran, on the other hand, was never ranked above 500 as an all rounder. He was easily rated below Kapil for a period of 6 years. For 3 years from89, until his retirement, IK was slightly better.

Again, looking at the rankings we cannot discount Kapil's being clearly ranked above IK for a significant period oh their career. This clearly shows that Kapil should be considered a better ODI all rounder than IK.

Now, I understand that rankings and stats are not the only means of measuring players. But when rankings show such a consistent difference between the two players for a majority of their careers, it cannot be ignored.

Also, please note that I do not believe Kapil to be the better test all rounder. IK was the better test all rounder and the better over all all-rounder between the two. But, only for ODIs, Kapil was the better all rounder.

 

[Sidilicious]

Another point - saw some posts comparing Imran's 92 final innings to Kapil's 175.

lol if you think neutrals consider IK's innings to be greater than Kapil's. Haven't read one neutral account talking about IK's innings, but read many talking about Kapil. Its pretty astonishing given that the Kapil's 175 match was not covered by the BBC due to a strike that day. The accounts were mainly from those at the ground and they consider it one of the best ever.

 

[ethan hunt]

Another point - saw some posts comparing Imran's 92 final innings to Kapil's 175.

lol if you think neutrals consider IK's innings to be greater than Kapil's. Haven't read one neutral account talking about IK's innings, but read many talking about Kapil. Its pretty astonishing given that the Kapil's 175 match was not covered by the BBC due to a strike that day. The accounts were mainly from those at the ground and they consider it one of the best ever.

Neutrals also unanimously consider imran to be the greater allrounder than kapil. This view is so consistent that even a comparison between the two seems odd.

As for the ODI player rankings people do not factor in the matches skipped nor do i think it takes other variables into account . Hafeez was ranked above many great bowlers but wont go down in history as a better bowler.

Also why are people [MENTION=139198]feroz[/MENTION]e Rawther) listing his test innings to prove that he was a greater ODI cricketer than Imran , when in fact he only has 14 fifties in over 200 games.
Averages a measly 15 , 17 , 20 against the better bowling sides of his time . Has a poorer worldcuo record.

What is so great about his ODI record ??

 

[Sidilicious]

Neutrals also unanimously consider imran to be the greater allrounder than kapil. This view is so consistent that even a comparison between the two seems odd.

As for the fact about ODI player rankings people do not factor in the matches skipped now do i think it takes other variables into account . Hafeez was ranked above many great bowlers but wont go down in history as a better bowler.

Also why are people [MENTION=139198]feroz[/MENTION]e Rawther) listing his test innings to prove that he was a greater ODI cricketer than Imran , when in fact he only has 14 fifties in over 200 games.
Averages a measly 15 , 17 , 20 against the better bowling sides of his time . Has a poorer worldcuo record.

What is so great about his ODI record ??

Firstly, My this post was about that particular innings.

Secondly, coming to the point about rankings - I would agree on the Hafeez point. But its not like Kapil was ranked the better all rounder for a period of 1 to 2 years. He was ranked the better all rounder for 7 years. That cannot be an anomaly. Thats a proof of consistent performance. Also, on the point about Kapil x number of extra games with the same 50+ scores - Please look at the steep decline in his batting from 90 onwards. For the 4 years, Kapil was a very average batsman. He was clearly the better bat between 82 and 89.

Thirdly, I never claimed that Kapil was the better overall all rounder than IK. My comment was only for ODIs. I agree that most neutrals consider IK to be the better over all all rounder. Also, when people compare the two, they do not rate them separately for ODIs and Tests. They take tests and ODIs together. My post is differentiating between ODIs and Tests.

And Finally, I do not agree with Feroze Rawther's comments nor his method to rank Kapil higher in tests.

 

[Mamoon]

True about afridi and sachin . But in imran and kapil's case we are comparing a batsman who has 5 more fifties from about 60 less games .
Also choosing to buckle down is an admirable trait , there are plenty of innungs where he did go for his shots but not always.

Yes it is an admirable trait, but impact players are worth more in ODI cricket.

 

[Mamoon]

Anybody who criticizes Imran for his 1992 WC performance has no clue how Cricket was played in those days.

Imran had balls to come and bat at #3 in both semi-final and final because he knew that he had a fragile and inexperienced batting line-up. Instead of hiding behind the youngsters, he took the responsibility with Miandad to handle the pressure and provided the platform for other batsman to cash on it.

Exactly. Imran played the same role in the semi, that Misbah played in the Mohali semi-final. Only difference is that Imran's backing of Inzamam played dividends for him but Misbah had no one to support him.

Imran's innings in the final was absolutely superb, as as you mentioned, came from the #3 position, showing that Imran was good enough to bat in the top order.

No matter how you spin it, Imran's innings in the semifinal was a very poor one and potentially match-losing.

The problem is that since we won the match and the World Cup, we have beautiful memories associated with those performances and it is difficult for us to accept that Imran's innings in the semifinal was awful.

In addition, since Imran is our greatest cricketing hero, we also tend to be over-sensitive and defensive when it comes to anything that does not paint in golden light.

Just so that we are clear, no one is criticizing Imran for his performance in the World Cup. He was finished as a bowler but led the team in inspirational fashion and played an excellent knock in the final.

Yes, it takes balls to bat at 3, but balls alone do not win you games. You have to play well, and Imran didn't play well in the semifinal.

As pointed out, Imran's knock was no different to Misbah's Mohali, but unfortunately for Misbah, the likes of Razzaq and Afridi could not repeat the heroics of Inzamam.

263 was a huge total to chase at that time and Rameez Raja gave Pakistan a very good start but Imran brought the innings to a complete halt in the name of anchoring, and he was going nowhere with his innings before getting out without remaining not out to finish the job, before Miandad and then Inzamam cancelled his ordinary effort.

In today's world of social media, had Imran played the same innings with Pakistan losing the match, he would have been slaughtered just like Misbah has been slaughtered for his performance.

In fact, if PP was around at that time, Imran's innings, regardless of the outcome would have been dubbed as 'selfish' by PPers and threads would have been flying around criticizing his batting. It would have been a bloodbath.

Bottom-line is that both innings were awful. Just because Inzamam saved Imran does not mean that his innings was good.

A 30 ball 60 in 1992 in a World Cup semifinal, chasing a big total is an outrageous innings, and no platform is good enough to facilitate a knock like that.

If we speak of platforms, the real platform was provided by Miandad who played a very inventive innings in the middle-overs, kept the scoreboard ticking and then remained not out to finish the job.

Had Miandad provided a platform like Imran, we would be without a World Cup today.

That brilliant chase was 70% Inzamam, 25% Miandad and 5% Moin and Rameez. Imran had no role to play in that success and he stuck out like a sore thumb, but thankfully Inzamam and Miandad played superbly.

If we put that match in modern terms, a target of 263 would be roughly equivalent to 320-330 today.

Now if you are chasing a total like that in a World Cup semifinal against a team dubbed as favorites by many, and your number 3 scores a 70 in 100 balls while your number scores an unbeaten 70 in 50 balls and your number 6 smashes a 90 in 50 balls and you win the match, how would you look at the guy who scored 70 in 100 balls at number 3?

The guy would be criticized for his approach and PPers will have their knives out. Only blind fan-boys would view an innings like that as setting up a platform.

The fact that Imran's innings now is viewed favorably is a classic example of viewing through rose-tinted glasses and letting your bias get the better of you.

 

[Mamoon]

I do not think you have ever watch Imran bat in a live match. Here is one example:

http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/65444.html

Imran scored 67 not-out on 41 balls vs WI in Brisbane, Australia in 1989. And do you know which bowlers he faced?

Marshall
Ambrose
Benjamin
Bishop

Imran was a very good hitter and he could accelerate whenever it was needed.

In 1992, he was 40, so understandably, he did not retain his hitting ability.

In Imran's days, most of the batsmen batted with SR of 60s and 70s. Check the SR of some of the ODI greats like Greenidge, Miandad, etc. Imran's SR was either better or comparable to them.

Pakistani batsmen used to play slow until the 40th over and then in the last 10 overs they used to go after the bowlers. This is the main reason that their overall SR stayed low even if they slogged in the last few years because they had been batting with SR in 30s and 40s initially.

Here is another example of Imran scoring 45 of 31 balls against in 1985:

Marshall
Garner
Walsh
Holding

http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/64268.html

Let's go step-by-step here:

Firstly, I did NOT say that Imran was NOT capable of playing aggressive innings and I also did NOT say that he was a slow batsman for his era.

His SR is decent for his time, but Kapil's is outrageous.

That is why he was a more impactful ODI batsman and that is why he was the number one ranked all-rounder in ODIs for a decade when we had three other quality all-rounders playing, including Imran, who like others, could not do anything about it.

It seems like no one wants to address this inconvenient fact and are hoping that it slips under the radar and gets lost in the sea of posts.

Secondly, pinpointing few individual innings over a whole career doesn't say much. For example, Misbah has plenty of innings at a very good SR but no one can call him an aggressive ODI batsman, even though he can hit the ball as well as anyone.

Imran was not slow for his era at all like Misbah, but he wasn't as aggressive and dynamic with the bat as Kapil.

Secondly, the fact that I haven't see Imran or Kapil play is irrelevant. It seems like we are down to the 'I have seen X so I am right you are wrong' card again, which is played to one's convenience.

You might have watched the career of both players and you are free to consider Imran the better ODI all-rounder, and I respect your opinion, but with all due respect, it doesn't make your opinion more credible, because we have seen how much opinions differ when people compare current cricketers.

20 years down the line, if someone asks me about let's say Amla in ODIs, I will tell him that he was nowhere near as good as his stats suggest and had no impact whatsoever, while someone else who has also seen Amla play in ODIs would call him a legendary batsman.

Different viewpoints, that's all.

A lot posters on this forum have watched both and rate Kapil higher in ODIs too.

Junaids has seen more old cricketers than any one of us but he is routinely criticized by other posters for rating X more than Y, even though the critics haven't seen either X or Y.

It is not necessarily to watch a player to know about his qualities and strengths/weaknesses. No man alive has seen Bradman play but everyone agrees that he's the greatest Test batsman, and no one has seen Sobers but no one would question his status as the best batting all-rounder.

I have seen, heard and read enough about both players to come to the conclusion that Imran was the much superior Test all-rounder while Kapil was better in ODIs.

Overall, Imran is the greater player because Tests hold more value.

 

[Mamoon]

Kapil Dev was a tailender who could slog a bit. That's it..

That's his average against every country

Vs Aus 20.
vs Eng 30
vs NZ 33
vs Pak 15
vs Saf 17
vs Pak 20
vs WI 24.

He was someone who could slop few runs in the final overs, nothing more than that. His stats are skewed by one good innings against mighty Zimbabwe.

On the other hand Imran Khan's averages against most countries are quite decent

vs Aus 36
vs Eng 29
vs Ind 22
vs Nz 47
vs SA 34
vs SL 45
vs WI 33

Imran Khan's away average is 34 and Kapil's away average is 20 (LOL)

Imran Khan averages 35 in the WCs and despite Kapil's heroics against ZImbabwe he averages 37 in the wc that means he has been a failure in rest of the matches.

IK's overall SR of 73 in that era isn't bad by any means either. Ik triumphs Kapil in batting easily..

Now bowling..

Kapil

vs Aus 28
vs Eng 28
vs NZ 28
vs PAk 27
vs Saf 31
vs SL 26
vs WI 29

Imran Khan..
vs Aus 29
vs Eng 23
vs India 23
vs NZ 37
vs SAF 17
vs WI 29
SL 28

Imran Khan averages 19.26 in the WC with the ball and Kapil average 32 in the wc.

Not much difference in team vs team bowling averages between two players but Imran Khan's performances in the WC has been head and shoulders above Kapil's.

Imran Khan is clearly a better performer than Kapil in ODIs as well. And we all know there is no comparison whatsoever in Tests. Kapil merely was a slogger.
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Your stats do not answer why Kapil was the number one ranked ODI all-rounder for a decade in the presence of Imran.

ODI player rankings also take the quality of your opposition into consideration. So if Kapil was a minnow-basher while Imran did better against better teams, how come he wasn't ranked higher than Kapil?

I am critical of the player ranking system because it lacks consistency. One good series and suddenly a player becomes top 5 material and one bad series and he is out of the reckoning.

However, when you rule the rankings for 10 years, it is not possible to argue with it.

It clearly shows that Kapil had more of an impact on the ODI game in his era than Imran.

 

[Mamoon]

[MENTION=134608]Hawkeye[/MENTION]

To claim that Kapil was a tailender is simply not true at all. He was a dynamic ODI batsman who was pretty much in the same class as someone like McCullum.

Look at some of the knocks that he played against some of the all-time great bowlers. Tailenders cannot play such knocks.

Also, Kapil has played one of the finest innings in World Cup history while Imran hasn't. He played some good knocks but he nowhere near Kapil's.

Also, you are making it sound as if Imran was a master batsman and Kapil was a nobody. Imran averaged 10 runs higher, but look at the SR difference.

Also, as pointed out by another poster, the aggregate runs is not much different for the two batsmen and nor is the number of 50s and 100s.

This shows that both batsmen were roughly at the same level but with contrasting styles.

Imran was more reliable and had better temperament, which explains why he averaged higher.

On the contrary, Kapil was more dynamic and explosive, which explains why he had a superior SR. A SR that was unreal for his era.

ODI cricket is mostly about impact. Kapil influenced more games with this powerful batting which is why he was ranked number one for a decade and Imran was not.