Imran Khan vs Kapil Dev : The Ultimate Comparison

[sensible-indian-fan]

Fair viewpoint . But even going by your time frame an average diiference of around 5 is significant and i dont believe in this weak bowling attack argument , good bowlers shine regardless but even than PAkistan was not some beastly ODi attack in the 70 and 80s .

His SR easily compensates for that if you have to go into stats fully. That's why his rankings were unaffected. Great SR, great economy decent average batting and bowling.

Bowling average does matter when you are playing for a weak attack that doesn't pick enough wickets.

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

Agree supremely great bowlers shine even with bad attacks but not all bowlers can.

Its still a burden.

 

[MMHS]

You are one of the most neutral and objective posters here and one of my favourites for the same reason too. But I feel you become slightly biased when it comes to Imran and just look at one side of the coin. I feel you undersell his competitors a bit whether it comes to Sobers in Test cricket or Kapil in ODI cricket. It is understandable though as Imran was the player you grew up watching (I'm biased towards Tendulkar for the same reason). Everybody will definitely have a slight bias and anyone would be lying if he said that he has no bias at all in sport.

You have listed Imran's excellent performances over his career which is not surprising as he was an ATG all rounder. However Kapil wasn't an average all rounder who just happened to be at the top for ten years because Imran got injured for two seasons. Imran didn't bowl in the 83 and 83/84 seasons when he played purely as a batsman. Kapil bowled in just 14 extra innings during that 2 year time period in which Imran didn't bowl. And it's kinda unfair on Kapil to ignore that period when Imran was injured because it was the greatest peak period of Kapil in his career when he averaged around 20 with the ball. I don't know if those 14-20 innings with the ball would have taken Imran from 480 (his best ever AR rating) to 750 (which no cricketer has ever achieved in history), or even higher than Kapil's rating of around 630 which is the greatest ever peak for an all rounder in ODI cricket. Imran didn't reach Kapil's peak with the ball in ODIs even after his comeback and Kapil was ranked as high as the 1st place and held the 2nd rank for considerable amount of time in the 90s as well while the highest rank Imran ever reached was 4th place. Agreed, stats are not everything, but we are comparing these players across their entire careers and not cherry picking. While you are focusing on Imran's injury period, you are ignoring the fact that Kapil had to carry an average attack for almost his entire career and also played with a dodged knee for much of the later part of his career which ended up damaging his stats in both formats.

Imran has a fantastic record with the ball in all tournaments (avgs around 24). But Kapil has a similar record as well (avgs 25). In knockouts, Kapil was even better with the ball averaging just 19 while Imran averaged 36. When it comes to batting, Kapil is often called a lower order slogger and Afridi here. But people don't take into consideration the number at which he came into bat for most part of his career. Imran batted in the top 5 for around 40% of matches in his career while Kapil played for just 24%. Imran played at number 7 or lower for only 22% in his career while Kapil played for 40% of matches in his career. It is natural that Imran averages 7 or 8 runs higher as he batted mostly at no.5 and no.6 while Kapil played a lot at no.7 in his career. Even in batting, Kapil was batter for the most part of his career till the start of 90s after which Imran became a more solid and better batsman (but declined in bowling) while Kapil declined in batting in the 90s but was still a very good bowler. I don't know why you want to discount that innings though against Zimbabwe which was a near must win situation for India when it was reduced to 12/5 on a very lively pitch at Kent due to Rawson and Curran's very good bowling at the start. From that situation, he took the score to 265 (which is about 300 in this age) and ultimately won the match for India. I can only imagine how it would've been worshipped here if Imran had played that innings and further went on to lift the world cup at 24 years of age against the almighty west indian team with over 300 runs at an avg of 60 @110 with the bat and 12 wickets at an avg of 20 @2.9 with the ball.

Sadly he is one of the most under appreciated cricketers ever even by the Indian fans. Even during his playing days, Gavaskar was sold as the poster boy of Indian cricket as he was from a posh city upbringing while Kapil belonged to a more modest background and didn't have the mumbai lobby behind him as well. Kapil is no doubt respected by Indian fans, but his name comes only after the Gavskars, Tendulkars, Dravids and the Kohlis. For me, Imran epitomised hard work, grit and determination and he turned from a decent medium pacer and lower order batsman to a world class fast bowler and a solid middle order batsman and was a supreme match winner above all. If Djokovic had played cricket in the 80s, he probably would've been the Imran of cricket then. Kapil comes across a player who always played with a smile with flair and charisma. Kapil once said that Tendulkar underachieved in his career. Ironically it appears to me that Kapil was the one who underachieved in his career. He was a batsman who in this age, would've been someone batting at Jadeja's position in the Indian team, scoring a quickfire 30-35 @140 to 150 sr every time with the bat and opening the bowling with the new ball as well. He is arguably the most naturally gifted athlete to come out of the subcontinent (batting, bowling, fielding) and I kinda feel he could've achieved more if he had played up the order as a batsman more and bowled in a team with a stronger bowling attack than the average Indian attack he carried for around 15 years.

I never under estimated Kapil, that's why the best ODI all rounder comes. And, I never over sold Imran.

Even, most of the Pakistanis don't have any clue what Imran Khan was, because hardly anyone looks at the finer things of the game. And hardly anyone realizes how precious something is unless they have lost it. May be in few years time when PAK should start competing with Afghanistan, people'll start to realize what performance, pride, passion, leadership & vision.


Imran is the most under rated & unfortunate cricketer in history - born in a wrong country with very little cricket media power, groomed in a system where he was like a mercenary & part of a society were he was criticized for issues not related to what was famous for. And then, born in an era when cricket was st its highest level, but not medical science - hence his stats are at least 25% inferior to what it could have been. His biggest quality was his capability to raise on occasion - he not no where a batsman then, but chasing 160+ in 20 overs, Asif promoted him at 4 - check what he did to Bedi & Co., do you think this is because of his talent? The same Neheru Cup, he played an absolute disastrous knock in SF as per StatGuru, batting at 4, when PAK needed 180 of 30 overs; BUT PAK did won - 2 days back he smashed 47* at Eden against Ind to set up almost 100 runs win.

In the history of the game - British (and Aussie) media has dominated for over 100 years, hence Denis Lillee comes at 6 in Wisden list; Wasim at 23 & Marshall 25; Warne at 5 & Murali 35 (?), after that in last 2 decades it has gone to India - I won't go to examples.

Hence, we read hardly anything for Khan. And, then he has damaged his own reputation by joining in the dirty game of politics - I can see some sensible posters here try to defame Imran from their political differences.

I have written enough on him - just would finish with 2 more examples. In these days mass communication & social media era, stardom is easily sold - 35 years back when cricket was limited to few magazines, DD National & may be few coloured posters in our walls, Imran Khan was more popular than someone what Sachin Tendulkar was 20 years later - that's in India; you can cross check that with your uncles & elder cousins.

2nd one you yourself can check - these days media money makes you talk sweet, talk smart, talk out of your head not heart. Every word has a financial attached with it, therefore in David Gower's all time list the ranking comes targeting 90% of cricket market, as there is nothing left in cricket out side. Even in this fake era of media mockery - pick any former great who has played in 70s & 80s - from Ian Chappell to Barry Richards, Clive Lloyd to Richard Hadlee, Dennis Lillee to Viv Richards, Sunil Gavaskar to Greg Chappel, Tony Greig to Kapil Dev, Richie Benaud to Geoff Boycott, despite his bitter personal relation Botham to Holding, Bedi to Vishi ...... You 'll see utmost respect for the man - no hyper pampering, no cheap words, no shallow comparison - just pure admiration for the personality, compititive mind, fighting spirit & above all playing capacity - and that's unprompted, uninstigated, unleaded, and unfortunately ... unpaid.

We should move on - both were great cricketers & it was cricket's greatest fortune that all 4 of those played at similar time.

 

[pacesensation]

You are one of the most neutral and objective posters here and one of my favourites for the same reason too. But I feel you become slightly biased when it comes to Imran and just look at one side of the coin. I feel you undersell his competitors a bit whether it comes to Sobers in Test cricket or Kapil in ODI cricket. It is understandable though as Imran was the player you grew up watching (I'm biased towards Tendulkar for the same reason). Everybody will definitely have a slight bias and anyone would be lying if he said that he has no bias at all in sport.

You have listed Imran's excellent performances over his career which is not surprising as he was an ATG all rounder. However Kapil wasn't an average all rounder who just happened to be at the top for ten years because Imran got injured for two seasons. Imran didn't bowl in the 83 and 83/84 seasons when he played purely as a batsman. Kapil bowled in just 14 extra innings during that 2 year time period in which Imran didn't bowl. And it's kinda unfair on Kapil to ignore that period when Imran was injured because it was the greatest peak period of Kapil in his career when he averaged around 20 with the ball. I don't know if those 14-20 innings with the ball would have taken Imran from 480 (his best ever AR rating) to 750 (which no cricketer has ever achieved in history), or even higher than Kapil's rating of around 630 which is the greatest ever peak for an all rounder in ODI cricket. Imran didn't reach Kapil's peak with the ball in ODIs even after his comeback and Kapil was ranked as high as the 1st place and held the 2nd rank for considerable amount of time in the 90s as well while the highest rank Imran ever reached was 4th place. Agreed, stats are not everything, but we are comparing these players across their entire careers and not cherry picking. While you are focusing on Imran's injury period, you are ignoring the fact that Kapil had to carry an average attack for almost his entire career and also played with a dodged knee for much of the later part of his career which ended up damaging his stats in both formats.

Imran has a fantastic record with the ball in all tournaments (avgs around 24). But Kapil has a similar record as well (avgs 25). In knockouts, Kapil was even better with the ball averaging just 19 while Imran averaged 36. When it comes to batting, Kapil is often called a lower order slogger and Afridi here. But people don't take into consideration the number at which he came into bat for most part of his career. Imran batted in the top 5 for around 40% of matches in his career while Kapil played for just 24%. Imran played at number 7 or lower for only 22% in his career while Kapil played for 40% of matches in his career. It is natural that Imran averages 7 or 8 runs higher as he batted mostly at no.5 and no.6 while Kapil played a lot at no.7 in his career. Even in batting, Kapil was batter for the most part of his career till the start of 90s after which Imran became a more solid and better batsman (but declined in bowling) while Kapil declined in batting in the 90s but was still a very good bowler. I don't know why you want to discount that innings though against Zimbabwe which was a near must win situation for India when it was reduced to 12/5 on a very lively pitch at Kent due to Rawson and Curran's very good bowling at the start. From that situation, he took the score to 265 (which is about 300 in this age) and ultimately won the match for India. I can only imagine how it would've been worshipped here if Imran had played that innings and further went on to lift the world cup at 24 years of age against the almighty west indian team with over 300 runs at an avg of 60 @110 with the bat and 12 wickets at an avg of 20 @2.9 with the ball.

Sadly he is one of the most under appreciated cricketers ever even by the Indian fans. Even during his playing days, Gavaskar was sold as the poster boy of Indian cricket as he was from a posh city upbringing while Kapil belonged to a more modest background and didn't have the mumbai lobby behind him as well. Kapil is no doubt respected by Indian fans, but his name comes only after the Gavskars, Tendulkars, Dravids and the Kohlis. For me, Imran epitomised hard work, grit and determination and he turned from a decent medium pacer and lower order batsman to a world class fast bowler and a solid middle order batsman and was a supreme match winner above all. If Djokovic had played cricket in the 80s, he probably would've been the Imran of cricket then. Kapil comes across a player who always played with a smile with flair and charisma. Kapil once said that Tendulkar underachieved in his career. Ironically it appears to me that Kapil was the one who underachieved in his career. He was a batsman who in this age, would've been someone batting at Jadeja's position in the Indian team, scoring a quickfire 30-35 @140 to 150 sr every time with the bat and opening the bowling with the new ball as well. He is arguably the most naturally gifted athlete to come out of the subcontinent (batting, bowling, fielding) and I kinda feel he could've achieved more if he had played up the order as a batsman more and bowled in a team with a stronger bowling attack than the average Indian attack he carried for around 15 years.

The only person who is being biased and not getting the point after our dear poster MMHS wrote two magnificent replies is YOU.

MMHs is not even from pakistan...thus him rating ik higher than kapil does not mean that he is biased

but in your posts i can smell patriotism (which should not be the case)



And yes, statsguru do not tell you the whole story....mmhs is right on this one.

 

[pacesensation]

I never under estimated Kapil, that's why the best ODI all rounder comes. And, I never over sold Imran.

Even, most of the Pakistanis don't have any clue what Imran Khan was, because hardly anyone looks at the finer things of the game. And hardly anyone realizes how precious something is unless they have lost it. May be in few years time when PAK should start competing with Afghanistan, people'll start to realize what performance, pride, passion, leadership & vision.


Imran is the most under rated & unfortunate cricketer in history - born in a wrong country with very little cricket media power, groomed in a system where he was like a mercenary & part of a society were he was criticized for issues not related to what was famous for. And then, born in an era when cricket was st its highest level, but not medical science - hence his stats are at least 25% inferior to what it could have been. His biggest quality was his capability to raise on occasion - he not no where a batsman then, but chasing 160+ in 20 overs, Asif promoted him at 4 - check what he did to Bedi & Co., do you think this is because of his talent? The same Neheru Cup, he played an absolute disastrous knock in SF as per StatGuru, batting at 4, when PAK needed 180 of 30 overs; BUT PAK did won - 2 days back he smashed 47* at Eden against Ind to set up almost 100 runs win.

In the history of the game - British (and Aussie) media has dominated for over 100 years, hence Denis Lillee comes at 6 in Wisden list; Wasim at 23 & Marshall 25; Warne at 5 & Murali 35 (?), after that in last 2 decades it has gone to India - I won't go to examples.

Hence, we read hardly anything for Khan. And, then he has damaged his own reputation by joining in the dirty game of politics - I can see some sensible posters here try to defame Imran from their political differences.

I have written enough on him - just would finish with 2 more examples. In these days mass communication & social media era, stardom is easily sold - 35 years back when cricket was limited to few magazines, DD National & may be few coloured posters in our walls, Imran Khan was more popular than someone what Sachin Tendulkar was 20 years later - that's in India; you can cross check that with your uncles & elder cousins.

2nd one you yourself can check - these days media money makes you talk sweet, talk smart, talk out of your head not heart. Every word has a financial attached with it, therefore in David Gower's all time list the ranking comes targeting 90% of cricket market, as there is nothing left in cricket out side. Even in this fake era of media mockery - pick any former great who has played in 70s & 80s - from Ian Chappell to Barry Richards, Clive Lloyd to Richard Hadlee, Dennis Lillee to Viv Richards, Sunil Gavaskar to Greg Chappel, Tony Greig to Kapil Dev, Richie Benaud to Geoff Boycott, despite his bitter personal relation Botham to Holding, Bedi to Vishi ...... You 'll see utmost respect for the man - no hyper pampering, no cheap words, no shallow comparison - just pure admiration for the personality, compititive mind, fighting spirit & above all playing capacity - and that's unprompted, uninstigated, unleaded, and unfortunately ... unpaid.

We should move on - both were great cricketers & it was cricket's greatest fortune that all 4 of those played at similar time.

Great post bro

Absolutely golden

Its really sad that people bring ik's political career into cricket

Regards


I do not know why people do not agree with you when you praise imran khan or when you tell some harsh facts about sunil gavaskar

 

[street cricketer]

The only person who is being biased and not getting the point after our dear poster MMHS wrote two magnificent replies is YOU.

MMHs is not even from pakistan...thus him rating ik higher than kapil does not mean that he is biased

but in your posts i can smell patriotism (which should not be the case)



And yes, statsguru do not tell you the whole story....mmhs is right on this one.

I guess so.

 

[pacesensation]

I guess so.

sorry kuch ziada hogaya

 

[street cricketer]

sorry kuch ziada hogaya

We all have our biases

 

[pacesensation]

We all have our biases

my comment was uncalled for

but if i quote mamoon regarding his support for sohail khan, since he did not really rated sohail khan... now that makes sense

 

[Feroz Rawther]

I applied your logic and took out stats, but still it doesnt prove that KD was better Test bowler/batsman than IK (in Test)?

yes ... i saw your stats...but first case... as i always says Imran's bat avg: of 37.69 is hugely inflated with 25 not outs in 126 inns.This is especially so because in his first phase of his career he was only a Stuart Broad batsman at best.Here too he had so many not outs. Quite naturally i can't give Imran's avg; of 37.69 its real face value.I would give utmost 35.25-35.5 value to it.That means this reduction in avg: would be reflected in varying degrees in his coutry wise split records as well.And Kapil's avg; in his first 130 meaning ful inns( 2 0 notouts(dummy notouts) which provides nothing to runs/inns value. So they are discarded.) Kapil avg:ed 32.37 . There runs/inns stood at 30.21 to 29.88 slightly in favour of Imran .So till this comparison point Imran is slightly better to Kapil.

But then there are 3 very prominent reasons which for me places Imran at not more than a 90% test batsman to Kapil. They are
1. Kapil's huge str: rate 84.4: 47.52 ( isn't this the most prominent reason why Kallis is not placed above Viv despite Kallis scoring 5000 more runs & avgg 5 more than Viv?) So no double standards.
2. In your data split up you would have noticed a very important fact.The record vs WI in WI. This is a very important yard stick in analysing even top order batsmen.That is the record vs the best team of your era in their own country. This carries lots and lots of weightage. Here Kapil and Imran are chalk and cheese apart. Avgg 42.33 at almost 100 str:rate with 2 nearly run a ball 100s are stuff of legends which even a Sachin or Ponting would dream to have in their kits because that record is against unarguably the 'best 4 bowler group' of all time.

3. I have went personally a lot into details of all huge scores played by both these players.I have analysed their inns based on match situation, opposition bowling qlty strength,% of runs in total runs scored, home/abroad, single handed effort( whether that inns was played with support from others) etc etc. Here too their avg: qlty of big inns played has atleast a level difference in favour of Kapil.For instance take Kapil's best inns of 129 vs SAF in SAF .That inns was played when IND was tottering at 27/6 in 3rd inns with IND still trailing by 36 runs. Only the formalities of an inns defeat remained.Kapil single handedly blasted Donald,Schultz,Mcmillain & Craig Mathews in 180 balls(str: rate of 71.67) and took score to 215.Percentage of team runs is 125/215 * 100 = 60%.Imran's best inns was 136 vs AUS in AUS .Yes that was a qlty inns with PAK in trouble in 3rd inns but even in that inns the dominating partner was Akram with 123 in 191 balls.Kapil's best inns was considerably better to that of Imran.Like wise, there is atleast a level difference in their big inns on the avg: thru out.
The gaps in these 3 very important factors negates any other small advantages of Imran and places Kapil a lot more above for me.Infact Imran not more than above 90%.Having this 10% gap in their weaker discipline means Kapil can afford to trail by a litte more in their stronger discipline(bowling) because 'criteria at out hand is 'better all rounder'. So i will afford a 15% gap between Kapil & Imran in their stronger discipline in favour of Imran to place both at same level as test allrounders.

Now in bowling ,Kapil avg:ed 28.87( 22.81/28.87 = 79.009 % as that of Imran) in his first 21000 balls(Imran bowled only 19458 balls in his entire career) & str; rate was 59.3( a bit more important in tests).For me it is only sensible to crop out the nearest( definitely have to be more than 19458 balls) milestone where Kapil avg:ed the most nearer to Imran before his terminal decline started & that mile stone is 21000 balls.
At this point his avg:s were like these
23.11 in WI
23.42 in AUS
27.15 in IND
31.87 in NZL
33.81 in SL
34.44 in ENG
39.33 in PAK
It is only a matter of common knowledge that performances in best team country need to be given the most weightage, then other abroad non minnow countries , then performance in home country & then only in any minnow country.That being the case, if we cluster together the 10 numerical values of avg: for both Kapil & Imran in 5 abroad non minnow countries & sort them, it is Kapil who comes out with first 2 values.
Even more importantly in WI(the best team of their era) which carries the most weightage Kapil's avg: value is the best.
Now Kapil's work density was so enormous(he played his first 62 tests in mere 5 years & 5 months, first 88 tests in just 8y & 5 months,this is just non stop cricket with out adequate breathing space between tours).This factor is truly reflected in the fact that after his first 62 tests his bowl avg: stood at 27.7, wkts/ test ratio at nearly 4(247 wkts in 62 tests) & str: rate at 54(similar to that of Imran).After that his knee injury & surgery happend. He didn't take adequate rest and straight away played in the very next test Ind played.(a matter of placing country before self).Then the result was only 64 wkts in next 26 test(wkts/test ratio of 2.46 only).I would call this the effect of heavy work load(a context in playing).Imran bowled these total 19458 over long 21 years .

Another factor was his lack of enough support bowling which is another context in which Kapil played.

Then comes another point.After the playing days of several of these great bowlers , the more days passes by, the more and more it has been getting evident that several of these bowlers's ways of getting wkts were not that always fair. But Kapil was the one bowler who always played the game fair.For me price of fair play is extra credit & not penalising.

So I always think in these lines as to how Kapil would have ended up with the same advantages as that of Imran in workload,bowling support,& fair play by just bowling 21000 balls in his entire career.Keep in mind than even with out these factors, it was Kapil who lead in the most imporartant place(in WI).So even if we place his avg: of 23.11 in WI & 23.42 in AUS as fixed, it means his figures would have improved in other countries in varying degress.Some days back a poster had put forward a topic which showed the precentage of wickets of first 4 top order wickets took by premier fast bowlers.Kapil was the 3rd in the list with almost 50% out of his entire career sample size of 434 wkts.This adds to my strong belief that Kapil would easily have increased his efficiency from 79.009 to 85%(after all it is only a small value of mere 6 , not like 15 or 20 or like that) if he bowled only 21000 balls with the same level of advantages he possesed in the 3 contexts namely workload,bowl support strength & fairplay. His avg: in the process needs to be only increased by 2.03 to reach 26.835 from 28.87 to reach 85% efficiency. 22.81/26.83 = 85.01% efficiency. And 'taking weightage factors in various countries' into account, Kapil's efficiency would be even a little more than that.
Similarly in one dayers too i have my justifications.But they are a lot similar to those of several posters who have already described those in details .So no more into that.

I cannot explain my justifications for my claims in a more better way than this.And this will be the final time I will be posting on this topic not only to you but to all others .Any supposedly sensible poster or any so called 'non delusional' Indian poster can call me 'delusional' or by any label. I am least bothered about that as long as my reasons in mind are crystal clearly convincing me and no ill feelings to them too.

 

[Slog]

^ What you are doing is first coming to a conclusion and then piecing together 'evidence' to back that conclusion regardless of their inherent flaws whilst
ignoring 'evidence' which goes against your conclusion

BuT yes everyone has a right to their opinion whether it corroborates with facts and not. Many years ago some people used to have the opinion that Earth is flat

 

[Bilal7]

How is this still going? Imran was clearly the superior player to Kapil and everyone realizes this. Botham is a fairer competitor to Kapil but Imran is just out of their league.

 

[Monsee]

LOL, so Imran's 25 Not Outs are inflating his average so and so that the world's most dangerous batsman (yet most underrated Smasher of attacks aka Paa Ji) is made to look less effective...but Kapil's 20 Not Outs are dummy not outs (whatever that is supposed to mean)?

I guess from now onwards, we all should realise a Pak player stays Not Out, his average gets inflated sky high (even if he runs out of Partners)...but when the shoe is on the Indian player's foot, that is a dummy not out, now whatever that is supposed to mean only God knows but I would say that means Indian player is not guilty but Pak player is! SMH

 

[#GreenRoars]

yes ... i saw your stats...but first case... as i always says Imran's bat avg: of 37.69 is hugely inflated with 25 not outs in 126 inns.This is especially so because in his first phase of his career he was only a Stuart Broad batsman at best.Here too he had so many not outs. Quite naturally i can't give Imran's avg; of 37.69 its real face value.I would give utmost 35.25-35.5 value to it.That means this reduction in avg: would be reflected in varying degrees in his coutry wise split records as well.And Kapil's avg; in his first 130 meaning ful inns( 2 0 notouts(dummy notouts) which provides nothing to runs/inns value. So they are discarded.) Kapil avg:ed 32.37 . There runs/inns stood at 30.21 to 29.88 slightly in favour of Imran .So till this comparison point Imran is slightly better to Kapil.

But then there are 3 very prominent reasons which for me places Imran at not more than a 90% test batsman to Kapil. They are
1. Kapil's huge str: rate 84.4: 47.52 ( isn't this the most prominent reason why Kallis is not placed above Viv despite Kallis scoring 5000 more runs & avgg 5 more than Viv?) So no double standards.
2. In your data split up you would have noticed a very important fact.The record vs WI in WI. This is a very important yard stick in analysing even top order batsmen.That is the record vs the best team of your era in their own country. This carries lots and lots of weightage. Here Kapil and Imran are chalk and cheese apart. Avgg 42.33 at almost 100 str:rate with 2 nearly run a ball 100s are stuff of legends which even a Sachin or Ponting would dream to have in their kits because that record is against unarguably the 'best 4 bowler group' of all time.

3. I have went personally a lot into details of all huge scores played by both these players.I have analysed their inns based on match situation, opposition bowling qlty strength,% of runs in total runs scored, home/abroad, single handed effort( whether that inns was played with support from others) etc etc. Here too their avg: qlty of big inns played has atleast a level difference in favour of Kapil.For instance take Kapil's best inns of 129 vs SAF in SAF .That inns was played when IND was tottering at 27/6 in 3rd inns with IND still trailing by 36 runs. Only the formalities of an inns defeat remained.Kapil single handedly blasted Donald,Schultz,Mcmillain & Craig Mathews in 180 balls(str: rate of 71.67) and took score to 215.Percentage of team runs is 125/215 * 100 = 60%.Imran's best inns was 136 vs AUS in AUS .Yes that was a qlty inns with PAK in trouble in 3rd inns but even in that inns the dominating partner was Akram with 123 in 191 balls.Kapil's best inns was considerably better to that of Imran.Like wise, there is atleast a level difference in their big inns on the avg: thru out.
The gaps in these 3 very important factors negates any other small advantages of Imran and places Kapil a lot more above for me.Infact Imran not more than above 90%.Having this 10% gap in their weaker discipline means Kapil can afford to trail by a litte more in their stronger discipline(bowling) because 'criteria at out hand is 'better all rounder'. So i will afford a 15% gap between Kapil & Imran in their stronger discipline in favour of Imran to place both at same level as test allrounders.

Now in bowling ,Kapil avg:ed 28.87( 22.81/28.87 = 79.009 % as that of Imran) in his first 21000 balls(Imran bowled only 19458 balls in his entire career) & str; rate was 59.3( a bit more important in tests).For me it is only sensible to crop out the nearest( definitely have to be more than 19458 balls) milestone where Kapil avg:ed the most nearer to Imran before his terminal decline started & that mile stone is 21000 balls.
At this point his avg:s were like these
23.11 in WI
23.42 in AUS
27.15 in IND
31.87 in NZL
33.81 in SL
34.44 in ENG
39.33 in PAK
It is only a matter of common knowledge that performances in best team country need to be given the most weightage, then other abroad non minnow countries , then performance in home country & then only in any minnow country.That being the case, if we cluster together the 10 numerical values of avg: for both Kapil & Imran in 5 abroad non minnow countries & sort them, it is Kapil who comes out with first 2 values.
Even more importantly in WI(the best team of their era) which carries the most weightage Kapil's avg: value is the best.
Now Kapil's work density was so enormous(he played his first 62 tests in mere 5 years & 5 months, first 88 tests in just 8y & 5 months,this is just non stop cricket with out adequate breathing space between tours).This factor is truly reflected in the fact that after his first 62 tests his bowl avg: stood at 27.7, wkts/ test ratio at nearly 4(247 wkts in 62 tests) & str: rate at 54(similar to that of Imran).After that his knee injury & surgery happend. He didn't take adequate rest and straight away played in the very next test Ind played.(a matter of placing country before self).Then the result was only 64 wkts in next 26 test(wkts/test ratio of 2.46 only).I would call this the effect of heavy work load(a context in playing).Imran bowled these total 19458 over long 21 years .

Another factor was his lack of enough support bowling which is another context in which Kapil played.

Then comes another point.After the playing days of several of these great bowlers , the more days passes by, the more and more it has been getting evident that several of these bowlers's ways of getting wkts were not that always fair. But Kapil was the one bowler who always played the game fair.For me price of fair play is extra credit & not penalising.

So I always think in these lines as to how Kapil would have ended up with the same advantages as that of Imran in workload,bowling support,& fair play by just bowling 21000 balls in his entire career.Keep in mind than even with out these factors, it was Kapil who lead in the most imporartant place(in WI).So even if we place his avg: of 23.11 in WI & 23.42 in AUS as fixed, it means his figures would have improved in other countries in varying degress.Some days back a poster had put forward a topic which showed the precentage of wickets of first 4 top order wickets took by premier fast bowlers.Kapil was the 3rd in the list with almost 50% out of his entire career sample size of 434 wkts.This adds to my strong belief that Kapil would easily have increased his efficiency from 79.009 to 85%(after all it is only a small value of mere 6 , not like 15 or 20 or like that) if he bowled only 21000 balls with the same level of advantages he possesed in the 3 contexts namely workload,bowl support strength & fairplay. His avg: in the process needs to be only increased by 2.03 to reach 26.835 from 28.87 to reach 85% efficiency. 22.81/26.83 = 85.01% efficiency. And 'taking weightage factors in various countries' into account, Kapil's efficiency would be even a little more than that.
Similarly in one dayers too i have my justifications.But they are a lot similar to those of several posters who have already described those in details .So no more into that.

I cannot explain my justifications for my claims in a more better way than this.And this will be the final time I will be posting on this topic not only to you but to all others .Any supposedly sensible poster or any so called 'non delusional' Indian poster can call me 'delusional' or by any label. I am least bothered about that as long as my reasons in mind are crystal clearly convincing me and no ill feelings to them too.

Well, 1-3 batting order Kapil percentage is 40 while IK 35.

But from 4-7 Kapil percentage is 31 while IK 36

Since you are not interested any more in debate bro, so guess i would leave it here. Thanks for the reply though, appreciated.

 

[Adijazz1706]

LOL, so Imran's 25 Not Outs are inflating his average so and so that the world's most dangerous batsman (yet most underrated Smasher of attacks aka Paa Ji) is made to look less effective...but Kapil's 20 Not Outs are dummy not outs (whatever that is supposed to mean)?

I guess from now onwards, we all should realise a Pak player stays Not Out, his average gets inflated sky high (even if he runs out of Partners)...but when the shoe is on the Indian player's foot, that is a dummy not out, now whatever that is supposed to mean only God knows but I would say that means Indian player is not guilty but Pak player is! SMH

Remove Dhoni's Not-outs and his average would be <40, he wouldn't get close to a SF spot in the Greatest ODI bat poll.

 

[gani999]

Whatever the stats may or may not reveal, Imran is much greater than Kapil.

Kapil lost his claim to any respect he may have earned the day he got involved with match fixing. Imran, at least, stayed clean as long as he was associated with the sport.

Granted that Kapil was one of the greatest all rounders ever, but the match fixing allegation against him is a big minus when one compares him with the likes of Imran.

 

[Bilal7]

Whatever the stats may or may not reveal, Imran is much greater than Kapil.

Kapil lost his claim to any respect he may have earned the day he got involved with match fixing. Imran, at least, stayed clean as long as he was associated with the sport.

Granted that Kapil was one of the greatest all rounders ever, but the match fixing allegation against him is a big minus when one compares him with the likes of Imran.

Match-fixing? This is new. Care to explain?

 

[#GreenRoars]

Match-fixing? This is new. Care to explain?

He was released from match fixing allegations : http://www.espncricinfo.com/india/content/story/105839.html

 

[Feroz Rawther]

LOL, so Imran's 25 Not Outs are inflating his average so and so that the world's most dangerous batsman (yet most underrated Smasher of attacks aka Paa Ji) is made to look less effective...but Kapil's 20 Not Outs are dummy not outs (whatever that is supposed to mean)?

I guess from now onwards, we all should realise a Pak player stays Not Out, his average gets inflated sky high (even if he runs out of Partners)...but when the shoe is on the Indian player's foot, that is a dummy not out, now whatever that is supposed to mean only God knows but I would say that means Indian player is not guilty but Pak player is! SMH

Oooh ... forced to reply one more time ... it is not 20 not outs man .. 2 '0 not outs' .Whether you agree with me or not ... pls alteast bother to read it a little more carefully

 

[Ab Fan]

Most Indian accept that Imran was better. What else do posters want. Let's move on from the thread.

 

[Monsee]

Remove Dhoni's Not-outs and his average would be <40, he wouldn't get close to a SF spot in the Greatest ODI bat poll.

NM, you missed the whole point, Imran's 25 NO's are an issue (I had created a thread where it showed with exception of one of his not outs (even that was borderline), none of his innings could be called 'Selfish' or by will. Match situations sometimes dictate whether one remains NO or not. Dhoni is a case where even his own fans have said that some of his NO's do look fishy especially where he does not seem to be playing with all the intent and ability and seems to be happy just rotating the strike etc.

So again, back to the point, Imran's 25 NO's are the issue yet Kapil's 20 some are not, good to know!

 

[Adijazz1706]

NM, you missed the whole point, Imran's 25 NO's are an issue (I had created a thread where it showed with exception of one of his not outs (even that was borderline), none of his innings could be called 'Selfish' or by will. Match situations sometimes dictate whether one remains NO or not. Dhoni is a case where even his own fans have said that some of his NO's do look fishy especially where he does not seem to be playing with all the intent and ability and seems to be happy just rotating the strike etc.

So again, back to the point, Imran's 25 NO's are the issue yet Kapil's 20 some are not, good to know!

I'm supporting your viewpoint, haven't explained it clearly it seems

 

[Bilal7]

Afridi, The Pakistani Kapil Dev, in some respects.

 

[another drop catch]

The Pakistani Kapil Dev, in some respects.

whattt ? ? ? seriously you can't compare them one is captain legend and another is 'well you know '

 

[Bilal7]

whattt ? ? ? seriously you can't compare them one is captain legend and another is 'well you know '

Don't be harsh. Kapil was no Imran but he was a pretty good cricketer himself.

 

[karthikc]

Don't be harsh. Kapil was no Imran but he was a pretty good cricketer himself.

Kapil is one of the all time greats. Maybe in bowling Imran (someone I admire a lot) stands ahead , but in batting and fielding there is nothing to say he was inferior to Imran.

And the World Cup win in 1983 had far reaching effects on Indian cricket

 

[Bilal7]

Kapil is one of the all time greats. Maybe in bowling Imran (someone I admire a lot) stands ahead , but in batting and fielding there is nothing to say he was inferior to Imran.

And the World Cup win in 1983 had far reaching effects on Indian cricket

Imran Khan was a better bowler, batsman and captain than Kapil in both tests and ODIs. Kapil is clearly inferior. Check their stats, peaks and head to head record.

 

[Teshi98]

Imran Khan was a better bowler, batsman and captain than Kapil in both tests and ODIs. Kapil is clearly inferior. Check their stats, peaks and head to head record.

Kapil was way ahead as an odi allrounder than imran. In tests imran was much ahead and in one days kapil was much better. Also if imran is great captain (in one days) for winning a wc with decent team kapil must be greatest to win it arguably against the best ever cricket team till date with a semi decent squad.
Kapil was both better batsmen and bowler than imran in one days while it was the opposite in tests.

 

[kingusama92]

Kapil was way ahead as an odi allrounder than imran. In tests imran was much ahead and in one days kapil was much better. Also if imran is great captain (in one days) for winning a wc with decent team kapil must be greatest to win it arguably against the best ever cricket team till date with a semi decent squad.
Kapil was both better batsmen and bowler than imran in one days while it was the opposite in tests.

I disagree.

Imran Khan

Batting AVG: 33.41
Batting SR: 72.65

Bowling AVG: 26.61

Batting AVG in World Cups: 35.05
Bowling AVG in World Cups: 19.26

Kapil Dev

Batting AVG: 23.79
Batting SR: 95.07

Bowling AVG: 27.45

Batting AVG in World Cups: 37.16
Bowling AVG in World Cups: 31.85

I'm not sure how one can claim Kapil was the better ODI allrounder. He only trumps Imran Khan in Batting SR and Batting AVG (in World Cups). That's it.

 

[Teshi98]

As you have mentioned kapil has stats in batting lesser than khan but at the position he used to bat his innings were generally of more impact than imran. His strike rate of 95 in that era is proof of his destructiclve ability something required in the ending part of innings.
His bowling was very good in odis but unlike imran he was alone bowler in hisbteam with some rare support coming from others in his bowling. This lead to him being neutralised whereas imran had atleast one other good if not great bowler with him.
However i did not know about imran khan bowling average in wcs which is pretty brilliant. But all points included i will pick kapil over imran in one days and imran over kapil in tests without giving a second thought.

 

[The_Odd_One]

I disagree.

Imran Khan

Batting AVG: 33.41
Batting SR: 72.65

Bowling AVG: 26.61

Batting AVG in World Cups: 35.05
Bowling AVG in World Cups: 19.26

Kapil Dev

Batting AVG: 23.79
Batting SR: 95.07

Bowling AVG: 27.45

Batting AVG in World Cups: 37.16
Bowling AVG in World Cups: 31.85

I'm not sure how one can claim Kapil was the better ODI allrounder. He only trumps Imran Khan in Batting SR and Batting AVG (in World Cups). That's it.

Because he was the #1 all-rounder, this argument you will listen from everyone who has absolutely no clue of its background. Imran was not the number #1 all-rounder in ODIs because a lot of time he did not bowl at all and played as a batsman. This does not make Kapil better.

 

[kingusama92]

Because he was the #1 all-rounder, this argument you will listen from everyone who has absolutely no clue of its background. Imran was not the number #1 all-rounder in ODIs because a lot of time he did not bowl at all and played as a batsman. This does not make Kapil better.

Even that argument is weak.

Imran bowled 7461 balls in ODI cricket. 42.63 balls per game.

Kapil bowled 11202 balls in ODI cricket. 49.78 balls per game.

The gap is negligible.

In essence, Kapil bowled one extra over per game.

 

[Leo23]

Even that argument is weak.

Imran bowled 7461 balls in ODI cricket. 42.63 balls per game.

Kapil bowled 11202 balls in ODI cricket. 49.78 balls per game.

The gap is negligible.

In essence, Kapil bowled one extra over per game.

i have heard on pp that kapil was the number one ranked odi all rounder during the 80s

considering that imran's stats are better what was the reason for kapil's domination in rankings? i guess the high strike rate made the difference in the end

 

[AlizeeFan]

i have heard on pp that kapil was the number one ranked odi all rounder during the 80s

considering that imran's stats are better what was the reason for kapil's domination in rankings? i guess the high strike rate made the difference in the end

No, SR wasn't the reason. From 1975 to 1988, first 13 years both batsmen were averaging 28.

For ex - Kapil reached 2500 runs in 109 innings and Imran did in 111 innings. In next 40 innings (2 and half years), Imran scored 1200 runs and Kapil played for 6 years, 89 innings to get to his 1200 runs.

That explains the rankings.

 

[Ab Fan]

Kapil was definitely the greatest odi all rounder of the quartet of his era.

Afridi on other hand= Kapil with bat+ Jaya with the bowl.That's all he is although potential wise he could have become a Jayasuriya who himself was an ATG cricketer overall in odis.

 

[Bilal7]

I think the Imran vs Kapil argument is valid here because Afridi is the Indian Kapil. A hard-hitting lower-order batsman with a SR higher than almost anyone else's during his time and a very good bowler on his day. Both were also fan-favorites in their respective countries but both could have achieved much more with the bat.

Imran is relevant as the bar which each of them could have reached (in ODIs) but ultimately, did not.

Kapil was way ahead as an odi allrounder than imran. In tests imran was much ahead and in one days kapil was much better. Also if imran is great captain (in one days) for winning a wc with decent team kapil must be greatest to win it arguably against the best ever cricket team till date with a semi decent squad.
Kapil was both better batsmen and bowler than imran in one days while it was the opposite in tests.

Ha! As the poster below me has shown, Kapil is objectively inferior to Imran in ODIs. No competition in tests. Like you said, Kapil simply wasn't good enough to bat at any place higher than the lower-order while Imran batted at #3 for his team in a World Cup final and ended up playing a match-winning innings.

Imran Khan with no hands is a better bowler than Dev. What are you even thinking by suggesting otherwise? A 10+ point gap in the bowling averages in WC matches and lower average overall tells me all that there is to say about the respective bowling ability of each player.

 

[Leo23]

No, SR wasn't the reason. From 1975 to 1988, first 13 years both batsmen were averaging 28.

For ex - Kapil reached 2500 runs in 109 innings and Imran did in 111 innings. In next 40 innings (2 and half years), Imran scored 1200 runs and Kapil played for 6 years, 89 innings to get to his 1200 runs.

That explains the rankings.

so why was kapil ranked higher for a decade? i don't understand

 

[bujhee kom]

so why was kapil ranked higher for a decade? i don't understand

No one who saw Kapil and Imran would ever think Kapil was better. He was a trundler with the ball, Imran was an express quick bowler. As a batsman, Imran had much better technique and an allround game. Dev was more belligerent but not half the player. Peer review settles this particular contest (and the stats too!).

 

[Leo23]

No one who saw Kapil and Imran would ever think Kapil was better. He was a trundler with the ball, Imran was an express quick bowler. As a batsman, Imran had much better technique and an allround game. Dev was more belligerent but not half the player. Peer review settles this particular contest (and the stats too!).

i know all of that and i myself consider imran a far better player

but i am curious to know why kapil was the no 1 ranked all rounder in odis for a decade when imran beats him in every metric

 

[bujhee kom]

i know all of that and i myself consider imran a far better player

but i am curious to know why kapil was the no 1 ranked all rounder in odis for a decade when imran beats him in every metric

I can only imagine his usual quick 25 runs and 1/40 off 10 racked up consistent points. But he seldom put in the dominant performance the truly great AR did.

 

[MMHS]

so why was kapil ranked higher for a decade? i don't understand

Mostly for consistently playing & playing more matches. Imran had a stop gap career in ODI through out 80s. Didn't play much ODI in 1st part, then got injured for couple of years, came back & played selectively, at the last quarter skipped lots of ODIs.

No discredit to Kapil, but ODI all-rounder's contest was no where near to Test contest - despite having immense potential, Botham never excelled in ODI, probably because being Brit, he was traditionalist, hardly bothered for ODI, while Hadlee was more concerned to maintain his bowling & prolong career. Through out 80s, probably the next most consistent ODI all-rounder was Viv Richards!!!!!!! Shastri had a great potential, but he was a limited cricketer for ODI.

 

[CricketAnalytic]

Imran Khan is definitely much better Test player than Kapil dev. But In ODI also better allrounder than Kapil.
Some saying LOI batting is about impact on winning than mere statistics & saying Kapil is much impact player in than Imran Khan in ODI

let us compare Kapil's ODI batting Career with Afridi's one in terms of imapct in win

Since not outs don't hold any significance in LOI, going by runs per inning
Afridi (Pak)
Run per inning=22 with SR 117
30+ scores = 97
Win ratio when scores 30+ = 69/97 = 69%

Kapil (Ind)
Run Per inning = 19 with SR 95
30+ scores = 44
Win Ratio when Scores 30+ = 19/44 = 43.18 %

Stats shows Kapil has 25.8% less impact on win when scores 30 than Afridi. Then how can anyone prove that Kapil is more impactful Batsman in winning Cause

 

[ind_win]

For the Indians who have understanding of Indian cricket
Kapil = Imran + Javed

This is because he single-handedly won India many things.

Few players are beyond statistics, for many Indians who know of Indian cricket history this is a fact that Kapil is up among the greatest Indian sportsmen. Ever.

 

[Ab Fan]

Imran in tests, Kapil in ODIs.

Overall, Imran is a GOAT while Kapil is ATG.

 

[Tusker]

Imran Khan is definitely much better Test player than Kapil dev. But In ODI also better allrounder than Kapil.
Some saying LOI batting is about impact on winning than mere statistics & saying Kapil is much impact player in than Imran Khan in ODI

let us compare Kapil's ODI batting Career with Afridi's one in terms of impact in win

Since not outs don't hold any significance in LOI, going by runs per inning
Afridi (Pak)
Run per inning=22 with SR 117
30+ scores = 97
Win ratio when scores 30+ = 69/97 = 69%

Kapil (Ind)
Run Per inning = 19 with SR 95
30+ scores = 44
Win Ratio when Scores 30+ = 19/44 = 43.18 %

Stats shows Kapil has 25.8% less impact on win when scores 30 than Afridi. I am wondering why Kapil is not having as much as impact in winning cause like afridi if he was most attacking & Impact batsman in 80s

based on the highlighted bit you should stop doing Cricket analysis.

 

[CricketAnalytic]

pls kindly tell me what is significance of not out in limited overs Cricket other than boosting average
In Test there is term Draw, so not outs hold lots of significance but ODI\T20 ??

 

[The Viper]

pls kindly tell me what is significance of not out in limited overs Cricket other than boosting average
In Test there is term Draw, so not outs hold lots of significance but ODI\T20 ??

Not outs certainly count especially in a chase. Is Dhoni mediocre because of how much not outs he has?

 

[Tusker]

pls kindly tell me what is significance of not out in limited overs Cricket other than boosting average
In Test there is term Draw, so not outs hold lots of significance but ODI\T20 ??

I will give you the example of 2011 WC Final .. Gambhir and MSD both made scores in the 90s one was out one was not out ... which was the better inngs ?

 

[PakLFC]

Kapil the better batsman and fielder. Imran the better bowler and captain.

 

[Sidilicious]

I will give you the example of 2011 WC Final .. Gambhir and MSD both made scores in the 90s one was out one was not out ... which was the better inngs ?

Actually, Gambhir innings was better IMO. He setup 2 extremely useful partnerships with Kohli and Dhoni. Ensured the RR was in check all the way. I remember he would hit couple of 4s, when Dhoni was new to the crease and just as the RR was starting go over 6.5 (or something). His batting gave time for Dhoni to get into the groove (Dhoni took about 20 balls to get started). And he got out only after India were quite close to an assured victory (50 odd runs from 9 overs with 6 wickets in hand, out of which 2 were Yuvi and Raina).

But I agree on the nonsense point that NO holds no value. Proper chasers (batting 5-7) should remain not out until the match is won. And this should be bonus and not a -ve.

 

[RainMan_]

Lol. Can't believe someone can open a thread on this topic.

How on earth can someone compare a mediocre all rounder like Kapil who is not even an ATG in any format with a GOAT all rounder like Imran.

 

[ind_win]

Lol. Can't believe someone can open a thread on this topic.

How on earth can someone compare a mediocre all rounder like Kapil who is not even an ATG in any format with a GOAT all rounder like Imran.

I know you like trolling, going by your previous posts as I can see.
There is no need for calling Kapil "mediocre" if you want to elevate Imran.
If Imran is great for you, so is Kapil for many Indians like me.
Give respect and take respect.

 

[jeeteshssaxena]

IN tests there is no comparison.Imran is far far ahead of kapil.
But this does'nt mean that kapil is mediocre ,he was a great allrounder and will remain one.
These days it has become a trend on pp to try and find ways to ridicule kapil and that too by some fans whose country has'nt produced a pacer even half as good as kapil.
This guy won a world cup beating mighty west indies twice and he is being ridiculed by fans of a nation which has'nt even entered semi final of world cup.

as far as odi is concerned Kapil is surely an Odi ATG ,his bowling record is as good as imran in odis.
Kapil devs batting avg is less than imran but his str rate is much higher.Kapil dev's str rate of 95 was unheard of in 1980s.

 

[CricketAnalytic]

Kapil Dev in Won ODIs
Runs=1653 out of 3783 = 43.69%
Batting Average = 28.5
Runs Per Inning = 19.76

Imran Khan in Won ODIs
Runs = 2066 out of 3709 = 55.7%
Batting Average = 46.95
Runs Per Inning = 28.30

Now Decide Who is better match winning Batsman

 

[Balthazar]

It took Kapil just few years to win WC, while Imran had to wait for a decade or so. Give me Dev in ODIs over any other all-rounder.

 

[Abdullah719]

It took Kapil just few years to win WC, while Imran had to wait for a decade or so.

It took Inzi just a few months to win the WC, while Sachin had to wait for two decades or so.

I mean that's not really a sound argument...

 

[Balthazar]

It took Inzi just a few months to win the WC, while Sachin had to wait for two decades or so.

I mean that's not really a sound argument...

How much did he score? Any match winning performances? or he was just part of the team?

 

[rudra]

Kapil paji GOAT for us Indians.
Not much of a difference between him and imran.
I am proud of kapil, pakistanis can be proud of imran.

 

[Swashbuckler]

No comparison, Imran wins outright in tests which is the ultimate format. Arguments can be made for Kapil in ODIs but for most parts of their career, this format wasn't nearly as important as test cricket. We Indians are proud of Kapil and rightly so. But no need to make him look better than what he was.

 

[jeeteshssaxena]

How much did he score? Any match winning performances? or he was just part of the team?

60(37) in semifinal(MOTM,one of the best cameos ever).
42(35)in final

 

[Romali_rotti]

It took Inzi just a few months to win the WC, while Sachin had to wait for two decades or so.

I mean that's not really a sound argument...

Not quite I can counter act with that by saying Imran's & Inzi's WC was fluke, wasn't for rain they have no WC now. Dev's Indian team which he won the WC was no fluke, they beat WI (The greatest side of their era) twice in that tourney India was also only team to beat WI twice or let alone I believe ever in that tournament....

 

[Abdullah719]

Not quite I can counter act with that by saying Imran's & Inzi's WC was fluke, wasn't for rain they have no WC now. Dev's Indian team which he won the WC was no fluke, they beat WI (The greatest side of their era) twice in that tourney India was also only team to beat WI twice or let alone I believe ever in that tournament....

I was just pointing out the futility of that argument to big up Kapil. Players don't win World Cups single-handedly.

Have no issues with anyone taking whatever side in this argument, be my guest.

 

[Ab Fan]

Imran khan, Kapil Dev or Ian Botham- Rank them in terms of batting?

How would you rank this golden trio in terms of their batting?

Imran- 88 tests, 3800 runs, 6 hundreds, AVG 37.00
Kapil- 130 tests, 5200 runs, 8 hundreds AVG 31.00
Botham- 102 tests, 5200 runs, 14 hundreds, AVG 33.00

The point worth noting is Kapil had a strike rate of 94 with the bat compared to 60 for Botham and I can't find Imran's Strike Rate.

Who do you think was the best of three?

 

[Hitman]

1. Botham
2 Imran/Kapil.

 

[as-95]

1)Imran
2)Botham
3)Kapil

 

[tyron_woodley]

kapil played longer which affected his average however I personally would pick imran khan over everyone.

imran
kapil
botham

for tests.

imran was just a GoAt fast bowler. However imran played with a better team compared to kapil as well.

 

[Ab Fan]

kapil played longer which affected his average however I personally would pick imran khan over everyone.

imran
kapil
botham

for tests.

imran was just a GoAt fast bowler. However imran played with a better team compared to kapil as well.

As a test batter, how would you rank the three?

 

[Danyaalr01]

Looking at stats alone you can tell Imran was superior. The other 2 were great cricketers but Imran was on another level. Even Cricinfo says it: In a nutshell Imran Khan is indisputably the greatest cricketer to emerge from Pakistan, and arguably the world's second-best allrounder after Garry Sobers.

Imran could make it into any team just with the ball, the other 2 don't. Imran's batting Stats are also a lot better than Kapil and Botham in both formats. Imran was easily a better allrounder than Kapil and also Botham.

 

[Stewie]

Most people here are too young to have seen Imran bat regularly.

Dev was more of a hitter whereas Imran was a proper batsman. In one dayers and tests, towards the end of his career he played as a proper top order batsman and scored lots of runs.

Overall if you compare the stats, you will see Imran was the more complete and versatile all rounder than any of his peers with the exception perhaps of Sobers.

If any comparisons are to be made, should be between Imran and sobers.

Dev belongs to the category of botham, hadlee, etc.

 

[sindhiboy]

Imran Khan was statistically the greatest all rounder of all time. Was the only all rounder avg almost 40 and 4 wickets per match. Sobers, Kallis were one of the greatest batsmen, but were not the best bowlers.

Imran was the worlds best bowler and at a point, pak's best batsmen after miandad.

I personally don't think any one comes close to imran. Botham maybe comes close statistically, but imran was a much better batsmen than him.

 

[sweep_shot]

I think Imran achieved more. He was (and still is) definitely more charismatic.

Imran wins this one.

 

[Ab Fan]

Most people here are too young to have seen Imran bat regularly.

Dev was more of a hitter whereas Imran was a proper batsman. In one dayers and tests, towards the end of his career he played as a proper top order batsman and scored lots of runs.

Overall if you compare the stats, you will see Imran was the more complete and versatile all rounder than any of his peers with the exception perhaps of Sobers.

If any comparisons are to be made, should be between Imran and sobers.

Dev belongs to the category of botham, hadlee, etc.

As a test batter, Kapil Dev was better than Imran for almost 80% of their career. But Kapil carried beyond his past date as he played in a weaker team, Imran ,on other hand, didn't focussed much on bowling and improved his batting average a lot in the latter period of his career, i.e, after 1985.

Overall, its a tough one IMO while Botham was better than both with bat considering he got 14 hundreds over his career.

Imran obviously a couple of levels ahead of Kapil and Botham as test bowler alone.

 

[tyron_woodley]

Agree supremely great bowlers shine even with bad attacks but not all bowlers can.

Its still a burden.

it's not about that tbh. it's more to do with lack of rest because india often never had a 3rd seamer (in the 80s) or an extra bowling option like pakistan did under Imran.

 

[tyron_woodley]

As a test batter, how would you rank the three?

very hard to pick. I suppose botham first.
imran and kapil are equally good in batting.

 

[Hyperion66]

Botham
Kapil
Imran

However as a bowler Imran is well ahead of both.

 

[Romali_rotti]

Overall.

Imran
Dev
Botham

On performance vs the West Indies:

Bowling: Imran/DEV tie
Batting: DEV


Botham cannot be included vs the WI, because he just was not good enough, WI bowlers were too quick for him when batting and his bowling as very mediocre vs the WI batsmen.


...

 

[MenInG]

Dubai: The debate over ‘greatest’ tag among the four master allrounders of cricket who plied their trade around the same time - Kapil Dev, Imran Khan, Ian Botham and Richard Hadlee had been an eternal favourite for the game’s lovers. There could never be a definitive solution, but Kapil, the man who took the sport into every Indian household with the 1983 World Cup win believes each of their quartet were blessed with unique qualities.

Keeping Botham a notch ahead of the others because of his allround abilities, Kapil said: ‘‘He (Botham) could win a match on his own either through his batting or bowling. In fact, I developed this competitive spirit in me to do one better than him during our England tour of 1982 when I was fortunate enough to end up as the Man of the Series.’’

Speaking in a no-holds-barred chat with former Indian opener Woorkeri Raman in the latter’s youtube channel ‘Inside Out,’ where he dealt with a wide range of subjects from the Class of ‘83 to the batsmen he would pay to watch, Kapil rated Sir Richard the best among them in terms of bowling. ‘‘He was a like a computer,’’ the legend said,

Getting candid about Imran Khan, former Pakistan captain and now Prime Minister of his country, Kapil felt his initial impressions about Imran’s bowling was not really extraordinary. ‘‘He, however, was a very hardworking bowler who worked on his batting also to serve the team. I would rate him higher as a captain for the way he handled some of the notorious players in his team. I was possibly fitter and more athletic than all three,’’ said Kapil.

The search for a successor to Kapil Dev in Indian cricket - much like for Botham in England (till a certain Ben Stokes came along) - had been an elusive one even more than 25 years after his retirement. Agreeing to Raman’s suggestion that he did not often take his batting seriously, Kapil said: ‘‘Yes, I agree that I could have possibly scored another 2000 runs or may be more – but those days there was nobody to really guide me.’’

Who are the cricketers whom Kapil would pay to watch? It was quite an eclectic mix from Kapil paaji: ‘‘Well, I would like to pay to watch Sachin (Tendulkar), especially his early phase, Virender Sehwag, M.S.Dhoni in the last 10 overs of a ODI and Harbhajan Singh in full flight. If I have to sit down and quietly enjoy a Test match – it would be both Sunil (Gavaskar) and Vishy (G.R.Vishwanath). I would also go for Mohinder Amarnath’s two series against Pakistan West Indies, where he was simply superb.’’

While cricket fans have marvelled at the resilience of Tendulkar and his hunger for runs, Kapil had an interesting observation about him that he often did not find the Little Master ‘ruthless’ enough. ‘‘Sachin was born in an era where he knew how to score a 100, but he was not ruthless enough to push for the next 100 quickly. To my mind, he should have made at least five three hundreds and 10 double centuries. I consider Sehwag an amazing batsman in this area, who believed in increasing his tempo after getting a century,’’ he noted.

Finally, who according to him, had been the best Indian captain? ‘‘You see, I believe a captain is as good as his team. If you had given Sir Clive Lloyd the Zimbabwe team or Bangladesh to Steve Waugh, could they have achieved what they did? This is where I would rate Sunil very highly because he did very well despite not having the resources. I would also commend Arjuna Ranatunga for the way he made world champions of out of a small nation - and possibly Sourav Ganguly.

‘‘If I were to make an all-time great Indian XI, then I would have to pick 80% of the players who played under Ganguly. Hence, leading them was not easy. However, I feel If Sunil had a team like that of today, he could have done wonders,’’ he concluded.

Kapil Dev reserved high words of praise for Ranveer Singh, the Bollywood actor who has played the Indian captain’s role in ‘83,’ the Hindi film which attempted to fictionalise the Indian team’s memorable World Cup triumph in England in 1983. Lauding Ranveer’s dedication and professionalism in preparing himself for the role, Kapil said: ‘‘He practised batting for sometime upto eight hours in Delhi heat, may be three hours for bowling and fielding. I was worried that he should not hurt himself and he has done a very good job.’’

The film, which was originally scheduled for a release in April, is still waiting to hit the theatres due to the pandemic.

Looking back at what would rate as arguably India’s greatest cricketing achievement ever, Kapil said: ‘‘Yes, it does sink in now that winning the trophy was a critical point in the history of Indian cricket. The impact of winning it helped cricket spread in smaller parts of the country - as till then it was played in pockets like Mumbai, Madras (yes, that’s how he prefers it) or a little bit in New Delhi.’’

https://gulfnews.com/sport/cricket/...han-imran-the-allrounder-kapil-dev-1.72476828

 

[NishanKonar]

Dubai: The debate over ‘greatest’ tag among the four master allrounders of cricket who plied their trade around the same time - Kapil Dev, Imran Khan, Ian Botham and Richard Hadlee had been an eternal favourite for the game’s lovers. There could never be a definitive solution, but Kapil, the man who took the sport into every Indian household with the 1983 World Cup win believes each of their quartet were blessed with unique qualities.

Keeping Botham a notch ahead of the others because of his allround abilities, Kapil said: ‘‘He (Botham) could win a match on his own either through his batting or bowling. In fact, I developed this competitive spirit in me to do one better than him during our England tour of 1982 when I was fortunate enough to end up as the Man of the Series.’’

Speaking in a no-holds-barred chat with former Indian opener Woorkeri Raman in the latter’s youtube channel ‘Inside Out,’ where he dealt with a wide range of subjects from the Class of ‘83 to the batsmen he would pay to watch, Kapil rated Sir Richard the best among them in terms of bowling. ‘‘He was a like a computer,’’ the legend said,

Getting candid about Imran Khan, former Pakistan captain and now Prime Minister of his country, Kapil felt his initial impressions about Imran’s bowling was not really extraordinary. ‘‘He, however, was a very hardworking bowler who worked on his batting also to serve the team. I would rate him higher as a captain for the way he handled some of the notorious players in his team. I was possibly fitter and more athletic than all three,’’ said Kapil.

The search for a successor to Kapil Dev in Indian cricket - much like for Botham in England (till a certain Ben Stokes came along) - had been an elusive one even more than 25 years after his retirement. Agreeing to Raman’s suggestion that he did not often take his batting seriously, Kapil said: ‘‘Yes, I agree that I could have possibly scored another 2000 runs or may be more – but those days there was nobody to really guide me.’’

Who are the cricketers whom Kapil would pay to watch? It was quite an eclectic mix from Kapil paaji: ‘‘Well, I would like to pay to watch Sachin (Tendulkar), especially his early phase, Virender Sehwag, M.S.Dhoni in the last 10 overs of a ODI and Harbhajan Singh in full flight. If I have to sit down and quietly enjoy a Test match – it would be both Sunil (Gavaskar) and Vishy (G.R.Vishwanath). I would also go for Mohinder Amarnath’s two series against Pakistan West Indies, where he was simply superb.’’

While cricket fans have marvelled at the resilience of Tendulkar and his hunger for runs, Kapil had an interesting observation about him that he often did not find the Little Master ‘ruthless’ enough. ‘‘Sachin was born in an era where he knew how to score a 100, but he was not ruthless enough to push for the next 100 quickly. To my mind, he should have made at least five three hundreds and 10 double centuries. I consider Sehwag an amazing batsman in this area, who believed in increasing his tempo after getting a century,’’ he noted.

Finally, who according to him, had been the best Indian captain? ‘‘You see, I believe a captain is as good as his team. If you had given Sir Clive Lloyd the Zimbabwe team or Bangladesh to Steve Waugh, could they have achieved what they did? This is where I would rate Sunil very highly because he did very well despite not having the resources. I would also commend Arjuna Ranatunga for the way he made world champions of out of a small nation - and possibly Sourav Ganguly.

‘‘If I were to make an all-time great Indian XI, then I would have to pick 80% of the players who played under Ganguly. Hence, leading them was not easy. However, I feel If Sunil had a team like that of today, he could have done wonders,’’ he concluded.

Kapil Dev reserved high words of praise for Ranveer Singh, the Bollywood actor who has played the Indian captain’s role in ‘83,’ the Hindi film which attempted to fictionalise the Indian team’s memorable World Cup triumph in England in 1983. Lauding Ranveer’s dedication and professionalism in preparing himself for the role, Kapil said: ‘‘He practised batting for sometime upto eight hours in Delhi heat, may be three hours for bowling and fielding. I was worried that he should not hurt himself and he has done a very good job.’’

The film, which was originally scheduled for a release in April, is still waiting to hit the theatres due to the pandemic.

Looking back at what would rate as arguably India’s greatest cricketing achievement ever, Kapil said: ‘‘Yes, it does sink in now that winning the trophy was a critical point in the history of Indian cricket. The impact of winning it helped cricket spread in smaller parts of the country - as till then it was played in pockets like Mumbai, Madras (yes, that’s how he prefers it) or a little bit in New Delhi.’’

https://gulfnews.com/sport/cricket/...han-imran-the-allrounder-kapil-dev-1.72476828

Kinda agree with Kapil here. Ian Botham in his 1978-82 avatar was the closest to prefect all rounder. He was a real match-winner both with ball & bat

Imran Khan was outstanding bowler for most his career but became a reliable bat after his blowing declined. Overall his career stats look more balanced but not in real during his playing career

 

[Bleedgreen4ever]

Well some Indian fans compare Kapil Dev to IK. the former not even close to him as an AR or bowler statistically.

 

[Hitman]

Well some Indian fans compare Kapil Dev to IK. the former not even close to him as an AR or bowler statistically.

No, they don't. The only thing Kapil Dev was superior over Imran Khan is the fielding department. As batsmen, both of them were pretty much equal where Kapil looked to dominate attacks and score quick runs while Imran was an innings builder who was limited in his stroke play but had better temperament.