Imran Khan vs Kapil Dev : The Ultimate Comparison

[Romali_rotti]

So Wasim Raja is the greatest ever? He has a better record than most against the migty Windies

So Wasim Raja faced, Garner, Marshall, etc ? if he has then I would rate him higher than another batsmen who played in the same time period who performed less vs the WI but also take into account if WI were the best side during the time Raja played them compared to Kapil.. Lets be honest here there is a reason why not many rates your INZI highly outside of Pakistan there is a SA, AUS issue on hand....

 

[MMHS]

So Wasim Raja faced, Garner, Marshall, etc ? if he has then I would rate him higher than another batsmen who played in the same time period who performed less vs the WI but also take into account if WI were the best side during the time Raja played them compared to Kapil.. Lets be honest here there is a reason why not many rates your INZI highly outside of Pakistan there is a SA, AUS issue on hand....

Wrong choice - you should have picked Holding.

Never mind - Garner & Croft debuted in that series & took 58 wickets in between. They actually deprived Roberts, who was the 2nd best fast bowler of 70s.

I think, many more rates Inzi highly than what you are trying to say here; you can check Aussies like Ian Chappell or SAF's like Barry Richards or English like Nasser Hussain; unfortunately the West Indian had past away recently, so won't refer him.

Never mind, just found your last line interesting - move on.

 

[Feroz Rawther]

Was off for some days due to system compaint.
To those supposed sensible analysts who consider Imran to be much much ahead of Kapil ... some 20-25 years moving forward some youngsters may take Lara- Amla comparison and conclude that Amla was a much much better player to Lara because of these stats.i am sure Amla will end up with over 10000 runs in both formats while maintaining the same set of avg:s, str: rates etc.
Amla tests 51.45 str : rate 50.05
Lara 52.88 60.51
Amla onedayers 51.97 89.04
Lara 40.48 79.51

So don't blame those youngsters if they pick Amla over Lara because as per you people str: rates in tests even if it is 47.52:84.4 is a nothing matter .So Amla-Lara both have almost similar test avg:es. But in one dayers Amla way ahead because of his hugely superior numbers.So over all Amla way way ahead by your logic. So don't blame those youngsters that time.

 

[MMHS]

Was off for some days due to system compaint.
To those supposed sensible analysts who consider Imran to be much much ahead of Kapil ... some 20-25 years moving forward some youngsters may take Lara- Amla comparison and conclude that Amla was a much much better player to Lara because of these stats.i am sure Amla will end up with over 10000 runs in both formats while maintaining the same set of avg:s, str: rates etc.
Amla tests 51.45 str : rate 50.05
Lara 52.88 60.51
Amla onedayers 51.97 89.04
Lara 40.48 79.51

So don't blame those youngsters if they pick Amla over Lara because as per you people str: rates in tests even if it is 47.52:84.4 is a nothing matter .So Amla-Lara both have almost similar test avg:es. But in one dayers Amla way ahead because of his hugely superior numbers.So over all Amla way way ahead by your logic. So don't blame those youngsters that time.

They won't - they are not biased & they have the intilligence to figure out the generation gap.

Kapil Panji is my most fabourite Indian cricketer, but the gems that you have posted in this thread are indeed worthy of apprication for loyalty.

 

[Feroz Rawther]

They won't - they are not biased & they have the intilligence to figure out the generation gap.

Kapil Panji is my most fabourite Indian cricketer, but the gems that you have posted in this thread are indeed worthy of apprication for loyalty.

You may call those 'apprication for loyalty' or by any labels. Just like they have the ' intelligence to figure out the generation gap' as per you, i have the intelligence to figure out the contexts that both Imran & Kapil played in and evaluate them accordingly .

 

[SLcric123]

Both are ATG all rounders but Imran is probably the greatest bowling AR of all time.

 

[Monsee]

Read the thread (see link below) and my post here to destroy all the myths being fabricated in this and many other threads over several years on PP, regarding Paa Ji the dasher, destroyer, the out of this world batter...all destroyed by a thread started by an Indian poster:

http://www.pakpassion.net/ppforum/s...I-Chasers-and-Finishers&p=8702059#post8702059

Whatcha ya gonna do, whatcha gonna do when Kapil Paa Ji is gonna come bat for you...you lose, lose and lose, is that what he is gonna do

 

[Feroz Rawther]

Read the thread (see link below) and my post here to destroy all the myths being fabricated in this and many other threads over several years on PP, regarding Paa Ji the dasher, destroyer, the out of this world batter...all destroyed by a thread started by an Indian poster:

http://www.pakpassion.net/ppforum/s...I-Chasers-and-Finishers&p=8702059#post8702059

Whatcha ya gonna do, whatcha gonna do when Kapil Paa Ji is gonna come bat for you...you lose, lose and lose, is that what he is gonna do

In these tables Kapil's full career data is taken into account(which includes his career end terminal decline data too). When Kapil has played 198 inns against Imran's 151, it is only sensible to take datas for Kapil's first 151 inns(before his terminal decline started. especially so because of them being all rounders & in those days
one dayers where very few compared to these days.So these 47 inns difference is a huge gap).

Secondly winning & losing depends on the over all strength of the team.In other words 'won while chasing' etc is not entirely dependent on one player.

Yet i will sort out 1 data from this list which clearly reveals the fall in numbers of Kapil due to terminal decline(that is in his first 151 inns & once after his full 198 inns).The record is in 'won while chasing'(though it is not entirely dependent on one player either)

Kapil : 33 15 588 32.66 602 97.67 (in first 151 inns)
Kapil : 40 17 627 27.26 91 (full 198 inns)
Imran:26 13 597 45.92 62.97

Here Imran with his 13 notouts raises his avg: from 33.41(career avg to 45.92(12.51 difference)
Kapil raises it from 25.87 to 32.66(6.79 difference)
but str: rate difference for Imran 72.65-62.97 = 9.68 fall
str: rate difference for Kapil 99.90-97.67 =2.23 fall only
If Imran raises his avg: by 12.51-6.79 = 5.72 , his str: rate falls by 9.68-2.23 = 7.45
So all in all not nothing much to separate them in 'won while chasing' too any way

 

[Slog]

Lmao at taking specific number of innings


Why not put in more qualifications and put in the best 100 or something then

As it is Imran has fewer innings because he skipped A dozen or so matches against minnows so his record likely would have been better if he played more matches

 

[Feroz Rawther]

Lmao at taking specific number of innings


Why not put in more qualifications and put in the best 100 or something then

As it is Imran has fewer innings because he skipped A dozen or so matches against minnows so his record likely would have been better if he played more matches

Not taking specific inns , but avoiding Kapil's last no: of inns during his terminal decline period towards the end of his career.And especially both of them being fast/medium all rounders( heavy work load because of them involved in multiple disciplines and that too in 2 forms of cricket) i do not find any sense in this logic of Imran playing more matches and then improving his numbers there by.

 

[ethan hunt]

Not taking specific inns , but avoiding Kapil's last no: of inns during his terminal decline period towards the end of his career.And especially both of them being fast/medium all rounders( heavy work load because of them involved in multiple disciplines and that too in 2 forms of cricket) i do not find any sense in this logic of Imran playing more matches and then improving his numbers there by.

Lol @ terminal decline .
That was also part of kapil's career , you just can't take out portions of his career .
You are just embarrasing kapil who was a pretty decent all rounder for India .

 

[#GreenRoars]

Not taking specific inns , but avoiding Kapil's last no: of inns during his terminal decline period towards the end of his career.And especially both of them being fast/medium all rounders( heavy work load because of them involved in multiple disciplines and that too in 2 forms of cricket) i do not find any sense in this logic of Imran playing more matches and then improving his numbers there by.

Bro decline or rise, it's part of career. And when you are doing comparison, you can not crop it out. If we do the same, then every comparison will be flawed. Even people will be able to prove that Ahmed Shehzad is better than Tendulkar or Lara.

People will be able to prove Shahid Afridi is the greatest ever AR to play cricket.

You can not remove some one's decline from the comparison.

 

[Feroz Rawther]

Bro decline or rise, it's part of career. And when you are doing comparison, you can not crop it out. If we do the same, then every comparison will be flawed. Even people will be able to prove that Ahmed Shehzad is better than Tendulkar or Lara.

People will be able to prove Shahid Afridi is the greatest ever AR to play cricket.

You can not remove some one's decline from the comparison.

then is it appropriate to compare the bowl avg: of a bowler who bowled
27740 balls to another bowler who bowled only 19458 balls? the difference is not negligible . 8282 more balls or 42.56% more than the 2nd bowler?
Here ... do you sincerely feel that had Imran went on bowling 27740 balls just as Kapil did his avg: would have been the same 22.81? We must not forget that Imran's bowl avg: was gradually declining thru out his final 15 tests.
And this is what prompted me to think about the converse and find sense in it.

 

[Slog]

then is it appropriate to compare the bowl avg: of a bowler who bowled
27740 balls to another bowler who bowled only 19458 balls? the difference is not negligible . 8282 more balls or 42.56% more than the 2nd bowler?
Here ... do you sincerely feel that had Imran went on bowling 27740 balls just as Kapil did his avg: would have been the same 22.81? We must not forget that Imran's bowl avg: was gradually declining thru out his final 15 tests.
And this is what prompted me to think about the converse and find sense in it.

You look at the age. If Imran had retired at age of 30 around the time what is generally considered the peak then maybe your argument would have stood. But not in this case where Imran bowled in tests till he almost hit forty

Also it's natural that a better bowler with a better average and strike rate will bowl lesser deliveries because he manages to get the opposing batsmen out quicker. Duh!

 

[#GreenRoars]

In these tables Kapil's full career data is taken into account(which includes his career end terminal decline data too). When Kapil has played 198 inns against Imran's 151, it is only sensible to take datas for Kapil's first 151 inns(before his terminal decline started. especially so because of them being all rounders & in those days
one dayers where very few compared to these days.So these 47 inns difference is a huge gap).

Secondly winning & losing depends on the over all strength of the team.In other words 'won while chasing' etc is not entirely dependent on one player.

Yet i will sort out 1 data from this list which clearly reveals the fall in numbers of Kapil due to terminal decline(that is in his first 151 inns & once after his full 198 inns).The record is in 'won while chasing'(though it is not entirely dependent on one player either)

Kapil : 33 15 588 32.66 602 97.67 (in first 151 inns)
Kapil : 40 17 627 27.26 91 (full 198 inns)
Imran:26 13 597 45.92 62.97

Here Imran with his 13 notouts raises his avg: from 33.41(career avg to 45.92(12.51 difference)
Kapil raises it from 25.87 to 32.66(6.79 difference)
but str: rate difference for Imran 72.65-62.97 = 9.68 fall
str: rate difference for Kapil 99.90-97.67 =2.23 fall only
If Imran raises his avg: by 12.51-6.79 = 5.72 , his str: rate falls by 9.68-2.23 = 7.45
So all in all not nothing much to separate them in 'won while chasing' too any way

Lmao at taking specific number of innings


Why not put in more qualifications and put in the best 100 or something then

As it is Imran has fewer innings because he skipped A dozen or so matches against minnows so his record likely would have been better if he played more matches

Though i said it before that i found it ridicolous to share just a specific set of stats. But still, let's see what i got here.

First as we know as an overall career, IK is better than KD.

Now you are so much interested in same number of innings of KD and IK as according to you it's sensible.

So over all IK has played 126 innings. In which his stats are like this.



And KD:



Out of 7 country, IK Wins in 5.

Now let's come towards bowling.

IK:



and KD:



From where i see and i think every one see, it is crystal clear if we take same innings of sample (which you are using? IK >> KD.

Though it's a Test match thread, but let's see in ODIs.

In same sample set of 151 innings, KD averages 25 while IK averages 33, KD SR 99 while IK SR 72.

Yes IK Sr is lesser than KD, but in ODIs, average don't have any importance???? Even Shahid Afirdi averages some where near 25 and with much superior SR, so will you believe that Afridi is better batsman than KD??

I am sure you won't believe it.
KD batting:



IK Batting:


Average, IK's much better than KD while KD SR is better than YK but average is pretty poor over all.
Again i will say is SR is every thing in ODis, then Abdul Razzak, Afridi can be proved better than KD and some other great AR of all time.

Let's check bowling:



While IK bowling:



Both seems to be same or you can say may be KD slightly better than IK.

Now if we apply criteria of win matches (same numbers)

Batting:

KD Avf 32 and SR 103 but IK avg 47 and SR 80.

KD 1 hundred and 7 fifties while IK 1 hundred and 14 fifties

So now on the basis of SR you will say that KD better than IK??
[MENTION=138463]Slog[/MENTION] bhai hope this post helps

 

[Slog]

The only coherent point is that Kapils SR is better than Imrans but to use that for Tests is ridiculous. In ODIs it's a legitimate point but you also have to look at the 7-8 run average difference

 

[Rudi hater]

No one can claim that Imran was a better ODI cricketer than Kapil unless you are super biased.

ODI cricket is all about impact, and Kapil was more impactful given his batting style and his superb fielding.

He led India to a World Cup win at the age of 24 with a mediocre team against West Indies at the top of their game who were looking to win their third straight World Cup.

It is still the biggest upset in World Cup final history and India's 83 triumph to this day, remains the greatest World Cup win.

Imran couldn't do it in the 80's when West Indies were at their peak and had to come out of retirement and wait till the age of 40 to achieve what Kapil achieved at the age of 24.

Imran played a good hand in the 92 final but nearly lost us the semifinal with his batting, before Inzamam bailed him out.

However, what Kapil did in Kent on June 18, 1983 was the stuff of gods.

Also, let's ignore the fact that Kapil was ranked the number one ODI all-rounder for almost a decade and we had four quality all-rounders playing including Imran.

Imran vs Kapil in ODIs is a no-contest, just like Imran vs Kapil in Tests is a no-contest.

Kapil Paaji is the greatest all-round ODI cricketer to ever emerge from the subcontinent.

There isn't a better package of bowling, batting, fielding, captaincy and Punjabi aggression.

Imran Khan and (late) Clive Rice were the top allrounders. They used win the allrounder double wicket competitions most of the times.

 

[Rudi hater]

 

[saadsahabjee]

if Kapil dev is better than imran then afridi is better than sachin bcz of strike rate.

 

[big_gamer007]

The only coherent point is that Kapils SR is better than Imrans but to use that for Tests is ridiculous. In ODIs it's a legitimate point but you also have to look at the 7-8 run average difference

Actually if both Imran and Kapil were playing today I would chose Kapil in my ODI team any day over Imran.. In tests there is no doubt IK is ahead of Kapil..

 

[Adijazz1706]

Can't believe this thread has gone on so long :

 

[blue_champion]

Kapil was an impact player period...with bat or ball....Imran was more of a boring grinder and old school line and length bowler who discovered a shortcut of reverse swing later on that made him more lethal.

Kapil motivated a bunch of nobodies and Sunil Gavaskar(not the best ODI bat) to win a world cup that was unheard of during the WI domination era.

Kapil Paaji was way ahead of his time,unfortunately....with Imran his world cup win coincided with the rise of Television media in the subcontinent that put him on a different pedestal.

I can understand the average Pakistani fan sentiment on this topic,so let us leave it at that.

 

[#GreenRoars]

^And we can understand the average Indian fan sentiment on this topic, so let us leave it here

 

[street cricketer]

Actually if both Imran and Kapil were playing today I would chose Kapil in my ODI team any day over Imran.. In tests there is no doubt IK is ahead of Kapil..

Most neutrals would do the same as well. Kapil is a fair shout in for the All time world cup XI.

 

[ethan hunt]

Most neutrals would do the same as well. Kapil is a fair shout in for the All time world cup XI.

How many neutral experts , pundits pick kapil over imran , i would be surprised if even 5 percent of them do and they have solid reasons for it .

 

[#GreenRoars]

Actually if both Imran and Kapil were playing today I would chose Kapil in my ODI team any day over Imran.. In tests there is no doubt IK is ahead of Kapil..

Yes, this is correct.

 

[street cricketer]

How many neutral experts , pundits pick kapil over imran , i would be surprised if even 5 percent of them do and they have solid reasons for it .

I was talking about the ODIs..

 

[ethan hunt]

I was talking about the ODIs..

So am i .

 

[street cricketer]

So am i .

It's hard to argue with you man. You will pick Imran ahead of Bradman in batting and Marshall in bowling

 

[blue_champion]

How many neutral experts , pundits pick kapil over imran , i would be surprised if even 5 percent of them do and they have solid reasons for it .

Kapil would hands down get into a ATG ODI X1....while I admit Imran is a little ahead of Kapil in tests,There is no guarantee that he would get into an ATG Test X1.....Wasim Akram would get in as a bowler and he is a handy bat....Kallis or Sobers will get in as batting allrounder.....So no place for Imran there.

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

How many neutral experts , pundits pick kapil over imran , i would be surprised if even 5 percent of them do and they have solid reasons for it .

The same neutral pundits didn't pick Bevan in their ODI WC XI cos he was a rubbish test player.

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

Anyone who has been like number 1 AR for 10 years straight deserves to be called the best.

Only exception is if he was a stat booster and not an impact player.

Kapil was ANYTHING but a stat booster in ODI.

Kapil in WC averaged 37 with 110 SR (26 games).

Imran averaged 35 with 65 SR (28 games).

You make a call.

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

In knockouts, Kapil averaged 19 with 92 SR.

Imran averaged 24 with 53 SR.

Kapil was mostly used as a slogger to close out innings (only played in 5-7 position in these games).

 

[blue_champion]

Anyone who has been like number 1 AR for 10 years straight deserves to be called the best.

Only exception is if he was a stat booster and not an impact player.

Kapil was ANYTHING but a stat booster in ODI.

Kapil in WC averaged 37 with 110 SR (26 games).

Imran averaged 35 with 65 SR (28 games).

You make a call.

You forgot to add the cornered tigers speech that adds 10 points to Average,Strike Rate etc etc

Even though Kapil's motivational quote of "Chalo Sheron Lado" to defend a partly total against might westindies to achieve the impossible is always a footnote

 

[Muhammad10]

Kapil would hands down get into a ATG ODI X1....while I admit Imran is a little ahead of Kapil in tests,There is no guarantee that he would get into an ATG Test X1.....Wasim Akram would get in as a bowler and he is a handy bat....Kallis or Sobers will get in as batting allrounder.....So no place for Imran there.

Imran was at least as good a Test bowler as Wasim if not somewhat better (which makes him easily one of the top 10-15 in Test history on the basis of his bowling alone) and achieved way more than Wasim with the bat.

Add to that him being an excellent Test captain, who raised his game to another level against one of the top Test teams of all time and inspired Pakistan to match them blow for blow, and it's very tough to leave him out of an ATG Test XI.

 

[blue_champion]

Imran was at least as good a Test bowler as Wasim if not somewhat better (which makes him easily one of the top 10-15 in Test history on the basis of his bowling alone) and achieved way more than Wasim with the bat.

Add to that him being an excellent Test captain, who raised his game to another level against one of the top Test teams of all time and inspired Pakistan to match them blow for blow, and it's very tough to leave him out of an ATG Test XI.

Wasim is single handedly hailed as one of the greatest fast bowlers to ever play the game...no great has gone out of his way to rate Imran for a reason.....from Viv Richards to Sachin to Kohli have called Wasim the greatest.

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

I think Imran Khan was a more effective test bowler than Wasim.

Wasim the test bowler would be inferior to Marshall, McGrath, Steyn and Imran (not rating pacers in order).

 

[blue_champion]

I think Imran Khan was a more effective test bowler than Wasim.

Wasim the test bowler would be inferior to Marshall, McGrath, Steyn and Imran (not rating pacers in order).

In terms of Stats....Maybe.....In terms of Pace or skills no one has gotten Nightmares about Imran....maybe about the LBW's while playing in Pakistan but that's about it

 

[MMHS]

You forgot to add the cornered tigers speech that adds 10 points to Average,Strike Rate etc etc

Even though Kapil's motivational quote of "Chalo Sheron Lado" to defend a partly total against might westindies to achieve the impossible is always a footnote

I thought, this thread is about all-rounder - significant part of that is bowling as well. Do you think Kapil would make "Straight in the all time ODI team" for his 23 average & 89 SR? In that case WHY NOT AFRIDI? Similar (still higher) average & a SR of almost 120...............

I like Panji, greatest ever Indian to play the game - but here the discussion is going to blasphemous level. Take out his innings against Zimboks in WC & then again see the Average/SR.

 

[Muhammad10]

Wasim is single handedly hailed as one of the greatest fast bowlers to ever play the game...no great has gone out of his way to rate Imran for a reason.....from Viv Richards to Sachin to Kohli have called Wasim the greatest.

The fact is that Imran's Test numbers were somewhat better than Wasim's. Of course, as an overall bowler Wasim edges him due to a greater record in ODIs.

As far as Tests were concerned, Imran was a tremendous matchwinner with the ball alone, a very inspirational leader and a solid lower order bat, who played some excellent clutch knocks for his team.

 

[street cricketer]

I think Imran Khan was a more effective test bowler than Wasim.

Wasim the test bowler would be inferior to Marshall, McGrath, Steyn and Imran (not rating pacers in order).

Agreed.

Benaud selected Imran, Lillee and Barnes as the fast bowlers in his greatest xi team.

 

[blue_champion]

Agreed.

Benaud selected Imran, Lillee and Barnes as the fast bowlers in his greatest xi team.

that Kind of nullifies the argument

 

[street cricketer]

I thought, this thread is about all-rounder - significant part of that is bowling as well. Do you think Kapil would make "Straight in the all time ODI team" for his 23 average & 89 SR? In that case WHY NOT AFRIDI? Similar (still higher) average & a SR of almost 120...............

I like Panji, greatest ever Indian to play the game - but here the discussion is going to blasphemous level. Take out his innings against Zimboks in WC & then again see the Average/SR.

Why would you take that out..

Is selecting Kapil ahead of Imran in the best ever ODI/World cup XI a blasphemy?

 

[street cricketer]

that Kind of nullifies the argument

Why?

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

In terms of Stats....Maybe.....In terms of Pace or skills no one has gotten Nightmares about Imran....maybe about the LBW's while playing in Pakistan but that's about it

Skills is one thing.

But effectiveness is another.

Wasim was the most skilled pacer to ever play the game. ATG in both formats and still he massively underachieved. That's the level of his talent.

But don't think he is reg as the greatest ever in tests unlike ODIs.

 

[blue_champion]

Why?

Lillee and Barnes ahead of all the other ATG westindies bowlers or likes of Mcgrath,Wasim etc.???

 

[street cricketer]

Lillee and Barnes ahead of all the other ATG westindies bowlers or likes of Mcgrath,Wasim etc.???

Everyone's greatest XI will have leaning towards their era.

For example, Bradman picked only one player from the contemporary era in his XI. It's only natural Benaud picked Lillee and Barnes who were the greats of their respective eras.

 

[Muhammad10]

Wasim was a great Test bowler, but I rate Waqar at the same level in Tests due to his outrageous strike rate, which compensates for a higher economy.

 

[street cricketer]

Lillee and Barnes ahead of all the other ATG westindies bowlers or likes of Mcgrath,Wasim etc.???

In any case, eventhough Wasim was a great test bowler as well, he was a better ODI bowler than test bowler. He is a legit GOAT contender in ODIs, not so much in Tests. Imran was a better test bowler than Wasim and some would argue with Waqar as well.

 

[Muhammad10]

Bowling all rounders are the ultimate beasts in Test cricket. Particularly those like Imran and Hadlee whose bowling alone can almost match the GOAT Test bowlers.

Especially in the quartet of allrounders' era, bowling was the absolute key to winning Test matches (still is but not quite at the same level), therefore, Imran with the superior overall statistics and match-winning performances coupled with his leadership traits, was the ultimate package as a Test cricketer.

 

[MMHS]

Why would you take that out..

Is selecting Kapil ahead of Imran in the best ever ODI/World cup XI a blasphemy?

No, I my self picked both of them in my all-time ODI XI with a note that, if I am forced to pick one, I'll pick Kapil. That's because the reality - we can't change the past of what went against Imran (read below, you should realise). Here, the discussion has gone to the only KPI that favours Kapil - that's why Afridi comes.

Cricket is not played on StatGuru. You have to look it other way as well - despite all his capabilities, Kapil was used as a single dimensional batsman, whose role was to blast from 7-8. Imran was someone who had destructive innings at 6/7, but at the same time he played another role - StatGuru won't ever tell what it takes to come at critical No. 3 spot in a WC Final, and set the platform with a 40 overs stay for only 70 - it's a pathetic innings, the way discussion is going here; an innings that won PAK a WC after 2/20 start. Imran was someone, who lost his best 3 years for injury, still played the 83 WC as specialist bat & scored 300+ at 60+ average. Imran was the player, who decided to bowl straight 10 overs starting from 30th over at Neheru Cup Final as he realised WI had a great start - his only chance was to contain them, rather than trying to get wickets; then batted at 5 to remain No. 71*, seeing through the chase, against that WI side - StatGuru 'll tell it's a selfish poor innings, facing 279 target. Imran was the man scored 67 in 5 overs against Ambi & Marshall at Gabba, the very next (or may be next), match batted 35 overs for a 56*, chasing 165, which was also almost bolted by his batsmen.

I see lots of posters selling "Kapil's 10 years at top" - simply because they see the game through CricInfo, not going to details - Imran was Mao of the Series in 81 WSC, then was the player of the series in England 82, then against IND at 83 - unfortunately after that he had to stop bowling & then cricket for 2 years, hence his ranking point stopped at a certain point. 3 years later, he made a come back, took PAK to B&H Final, then took 6/14; but his cumulative points never reached that high point because of limited volume. He was the best player of 87 WC, then retired & played selectively; he was the player of Neheru Cup, again hardly played consistently, he was the player of 1990 WSC (Deano won it because AUS won the cup, you can check stats).

I can't prove, but had Imran could carry his career continuously throughout 80s, he would have been 1st all-rounder with 750+ points - his 1st 100 ODI had 117 wickets at 21 average & 3.5 economy; his last 100 ODI has batting average close to 40 @ 75 SR - that's late 80s & early 90s we are talking about.

If you want to study this great game, you have to search in history through CricInfo, not in StatGuru.

 

[Monsee]

Lol @ terminal decline .
That was also part of kapil's career , you just can't take out portions of his career .
You are just embarrasing kapil who was a pretty decent all rounder for India .

Also, he conveniently ignores Imran could have had a decline as well, at least his bowling went south quite alarmingly due to various injuries and fitness issues!

Even as an ODi batter, his last few years were not that great as a batter as well

 

[Muhammad10]

In terms of Stats....Maybe.....In terms of Pace or skills no one has gotten Nightmares about Imran....maybe about the LBW's while playing in Pakistan but that's about it

Perhaps this would be a more productive discussion if you put aside your bias and took note of a similar disparity between Kapil Dev's home and away record. Both their home averages are approximately just over 6 runs lower than their away averages. Imran's strike rate is 47 at home and 59.2 away (12.2 lower), while Kapil's strike rate at home is 55.7 and 72.2 away (16.5 lower). As it is Imran was a firm advocate for neutral umpires so these cheap shots are totally uncalled for.

To emphasise the large gap between the two as Test bowlers, I'll list some further illuminating stats here:

Imran averaged below 29 in every country where he played. In 4 out of the 7 countries where he played, he averaged below 26.
He had a strike rate below 70 in 6 out of the 7 countries where he played.

Meanwhile, Kapil averaged below 30 in only 3 out of the 9 countries where he played. He averaged over 30 in 6 out of the 9 countries where he played. He averaged over 37 in 4 out of the 9 countries where he played.
Kapil had a strike rate below 70 in 3 out of the 9 countries where he played.

#DifferentClass #DifferentImpact #MythBusted

 

[Feroz Rawther]

not posting any more w.r.t topic. I will stick on with my belief.
i have conveyed my points already.

 

[Adijazz1706]

No, I my self picked both of them in my all-time ODI XI with a note that, if I am forced to pick one, I'll pick Kapil. That's because the reality - we can't change the past of what went against Imran (read below, you should realise). Here, the discussion has gone to the only KPI that favours Kapil - that's why Afridi comes.

Cricket is not played on StatGuru. You have to look it other way as well - despite all his capabilities, Kapil was used as a single dimensional batsman, whose role was to blast from 7-8. Imran was someone who had destructive innings at 6/7, but at the same time he played another role - StatGuru won't ever tell what it takes to come at critical No. 3 spot in a WC Final, and set the platform with a 40 overs stay for only 70 - it's a pathetic innings, the way discussion is going here; an innings that won PAK a WC after 2/20 start. Imran was someone, who lost his best 3 years for injury, still played the 83 WC as specialist bat & scored 300+ at 60+ average. Imran was the player, who decided to bowl straight 10 overs starting from 30th over at Neheru Cup Final as he realised WI had a great start - his only chance was to contain them, rather than trying to get wickets; then batted at 5 to remain No. 71*, seeing through the chase, against that WI side - StatGuru 'll tell it's a selfish poor innings, facing 279 target. Imran was the man scored 67 in 5 overs against Ambi & Marshall at Gabba, the very next (or may be next), match batted 35 overs for a 56*, chasing 165, which was also almost bolted by his batsmen.

I see lots of posters selling "Kapil's 10 years at top" - simply because they see the game through CricInfo, not going to details - Imran was Mao of the Series in 81 WSC, then was the player of the series in England 82, then against IND at 83 - unfortunately after that he had to stop bowling & then cricket for 2 years, hence his ranking point stopped at a certain point. 3 years later, he made a come back, took PAK to B&H Final, then took 6/14; but his cumulative points never reached that high point because of limited volume. He was the best player of 87 WC, then retired & played selectively; he was the player of Neheru Cup, again hardly played consistently, he was the player of 1990 WSC (Deano won it because AUS won the cup, you can check stats).

I can't prove, but had Imran could carry his career continuously throughout 80s, he would have been 1st all-rounder with 750+ points - his 1st 100 ODI had 117 wickets at 21 average & 3.5 economy; his last 100 ODI has batting average close to 40 @ 75 SR - that's late 80s & early 90s we are talking about.

If you want to study this great game, you have to search in history through CricInfo, not in StatGuru.

That would settle it anywhere but on PP

 

[Monsee]

Irony is laughing out loud when Indians, of all the people, are going against the stats presented by several in this thread and the other thread I pointed to my earlier post (LINK)

I mean, you guys are known to love your stats, the longevity factor, the mountain of runs, the long record of Paa Ji playing on and on...now all of a sudden all those are being sunned so Paa Ji can somehow win?

What a country, what a people!

 

[Slog]

not posting any more w.r.t topic. I will stick on with my belief.
i have conveyed my points already.

You can stick to your belief like many stubborn Middle Ages people stuck to the belief that the earth is flat. But it won't change facts

 

[Belawal2014]

Imran was better looking, so there's that.

 

[Monsee]

Perhaps this would be a more productive discussion if you put aside your bias and took note of a similar disparity between Kapil Dev's home and away record. Both their home averages are approximately just over 6 runs lower than their away averages. Imran's strike rate is 47 at home and 59.2 away (12.2 lower), while Kapil's strike rate at home is 55.7 and 72.2 away (16.5 lower). As it is Imran was a firm advocate for neutral umpires so these cheap shots are totally uncalled for.

To emphasise the large gap between the two as Test bowlers, I'll list some further illuminating stats here:

Imran averaged below 29 in every country where he played. In 4 out of the 7 countries where he played, he averaged below 26.
He had a strike rate below 70 in 6 out of the 7 countries where he played.

Meanwhile, Kapil averaged below 30 in only 3 out of the 9 countries where he played. He averaged over 30 in 6 out of the 9 countries where he played. He averaged over 37 in 4 out of the 9 countries where he played.
Kapil had a strike rate below 70 in 3 out of the 9 countries where he played.

#DifferentClass #DifferentImpact #MythBusted

Oh oh oh but but but those LBW stats favoring Imran at home...they look like too easy of a target since Imran does not have the backing of a large group of journalists, hell bent on making him a martyr/hero/demigod while he is still alive!

And also conveniently forgetting the fact that Imran, of all the fast bowlers amongst his contemporaries, was the one with one of the best booming in-swingers ever seen...hence quite a few of his victims were LBW, but then again probably same if not more, were bowled as well

 

[Muhammad10]

Oh oh oh but but but those LBW stats favoring Imran at home...they look like too easy of a target since Imran does not have the backing of a large group of journalists, hell bent on making him a martyr/hero/demigod while he is still alive!

And also conveniently forgetting the fact that Imran, of all the fast bowlers amongst his contemporaries, was the one with one of the best booming in-swingers ever seen...hence quite a few of his victims were LBW, but then again probably same if not more, were bowled as well

I must admit the following quote from a certain poster on here was pretty hilarious.

Kapil was an impact player period...with bat or ball....Imran was more of a boring grinder and old school line and length bowler who discovered a shortcut of reverse swing later on that made him more lethal.

It's as if he switched Imran and Kapil's roles as bowlers. )

 

[Monsee]

I must admit the following quote from a certain poster on here was pretty hilarious.



It's as if he switched Imran and Kapil's roles as bowlers. )

I saw that comment earlier and was like 'Whaaaat???', but then I figured it is someone who is from the brainwashed generation...too many TV stations telling of the 'Numerous' times when Kapil Paa Ji made Imran look like a trundler with his awesome and out of this world bowling

Kapil at best had one of the ugliest bowling actions ever, not very pleasing asthetically, and far from a terror that would keep the opponents awake in fear of facing him next day. Imran on the other hand went from a medium pacer to genuine terror in the space of 5 days

He battered/bruised Aussies so badly in that test that several of them said afterwards that they had not seen anyone bowl that fast before, this comment in the days of several world calss express fast bowlers says something

 

[Muhammad10]

I saw that comment earlier and was like 'Whaaaat???', but then I figured it is someone who is from the brainwashed generation...too many TV stations telling of the 'Numerous' times when Kapil Paa Ji made Imran look like a trundler with his awesome and out of this world bowling

Kapil at best had one of the ugliest bowling actions ever, not very pleasing asthetically, and far from a terror that would keep the opponents awake in fear of facing him next day. Imran on the other hand went from a medium pacer to genuine terror in the space of 5 days

He battered/bruised Aussies so badly in that test that several of them said afterwards that they had not seen anyone bowl that fast before, this comment in the days of several world calss express fast bowlers says something

Indeed. They were both from different categories of pacers. Kapil was more of a RMF/RFM pacer who generally relied on swing and accuracy, while Imran started off as a medium pacer but realised that he needed to be FAST in order to be world class, especially in his home conditions.

From then on he evolved into a lethal, world class fast bowler, who tore many batting lineups apart and raised his game to another level against the best in the world.

 

[street cricketer]

No, I my self picked both of them in my all-time ODI XI with a note that, if I am forced to pick one, I'll pick Kapil. That's because the reality - we can't change the past of what went against Imran (read below, you should realise). Here, the discussion has gone to the only KPI that favours Kapil - that's why Afridi comes.

Cricket is not played on StatGuru. You have to look it other way as well - despite all his capabilities, Kapil was used as a single dimensional batsman, whose role was to blast from 7-8. Imran was someone who had destructive innings at 6/7, but at the same time he played another role - StatGuru won't ever tell what it takes to come at critical No. 3 spot in a WC Final, and set the platform with a 40 overs stay for only 70 - it's a pathetic innings, the way discussion is going here; an innings that won PAK a WC after 2/20 start. Imran was someone, who lost his best 3 years for injury, still played the 83 WC as specialist bat & scored 300+ at 60+ average. Imran was the player, who decided to bowl straight 10 overs starting from 30th over at Neheru Cup Final as he realised WI had a great start - his only chance was to contain them, rather than trying to get wickets; then batted at 5 to remain No. 71*, seeing through the chase, against that WI side - StatGuru 'll tell it's a selfish poor innings, facing 279 target. Imran was the man scored 67 in 5 overs against Ambi & Marshall at Gabba, the very next (or may be next), match batted 35 overs for a 56*, chasing 165, which was also almost bolted by his batsmen.

I see lots of posters selling "Kapil's 10 years at top" - simply because they see the game through CricInfo, not going to details - Imran was Mao of the Series in 81 WSC, then was the player of the series in England 82, then against IND at 83 - unfortunately after that he had to stop bowling & then cricket for 2 years, hence his ranking point stopped at a certain point. 3 years later, he made a come back, took PAK to B&H Final, then took 6/14; but his cumulative points never reached that high point because of limited volume. He was the best player of 87 WC, then retired & played selectively; he was the player of Neheru Cup, again hardly played consistently, he was the player of 1990 WSC (Deano won it because AUS won the cup, you can check stats).

I can't prove, but had Imran could carry his career continuously throughout 80s, he would have been 1st all-rounder with 750+ points - his 1st 100 ODI had 117 wickets at 21 average & 3.5 economy; his last 100 ODI has batting average close to 40 @ 75 SR - that's late 80s & early 90s we are talking about.

If you want to study this great game, you have to search in history through CricInfo, not in StatGuru.

You are one of the most neutral and objective posters here and one of my favourites for the same reason too. But I feel you become slightly biased when it comes to Imran and just look at one side of the coin. I feel you undersell his competitors a bit whether it comes to Sobers in Test cricket or Kapil in ODI cricket. It is understandable though as Imran was the player you grew up watching (I'm biased towards Tendulkar for the same reason). Everybody will definitely have a slight bias and anyone would be lying if he said that he has no bias at all in sport.

You have listed Imran's excellent performances over his career which is not surprising as he was an ATG all rounder. However Kapil wasn't an average all rounder who just happened to be at the top for ten years because Imran got injured for two seasons. Imran didn't bowl in the 83 and 83/84 seasons when he played purely as a batsman. Kapil bowled in just 14 extra innings during that 2 year time period in which Imran didn't bowl. And it's kinda unfair on Kapil to ignore that period when Imran was injured because it was the greatest peak period of Kapil in his career when he averaged around 20 with the ball. I don't know if those 14-20 innings with the ball would have taken Imran from 480 (his best ever AR rating) to 750 (which no cricketer has ever achieved in history), or even higher than Kapil's rating of around 630 which is the greatest ever peak for an all rounder in ODI cricket. Imran didn't reach Kapil's peak with the ball in ODIs even after his comeback and Kapil was ranked as high as the 1st place and held the 2nd rank for considerable amount of time in the 90s as well while the highest rank Imran ever reached was 4th place. Agreed, stats are not everything, but we are comparing these players across their entire careers and not cherry picking. While you are focusing on Imran's injury period, you are ignoring the fact that Kapil had to carry an average attack for almost his entire career and also played with a dodged knee for much of the later part of his career which ended up damaging his stats in both formats.

Imran has a fantastic record with the ball in all tournaments (avgs around 24). But Kapil has a similar record as well (avgs 25). In knockouts, Kapil was even better with the ball averaging just 19 while Imran averaged 36. When it comes to batting, Kapil is often called a lower order slogger and Afridi here. But people don't take into consideration the number at which he came into bat for most part of his career. Imran batted in the top 5 for around 40% of matches in his career while Kapil played for just 24%. Imran played at number 7 or lower for only 22% in his career while Kapil played for 40% of matches in his career. It is natural that Imran averages 7 or 8 runs higher as he batted mostly at no.5 and no.6 while Kapil played a lot at no.7 in his career. Even in batting, Kapil was batter for the most part of his career till the start of 90s after which Imran became a more solid and better batsman (but declined in bowling) while Kapil declined in batting in the 90s but was still a very good bowler. I don't know why you want to discount that innings though against Zimbabwe which was a near must win situation for India when it was reduced to 12/5 on a very lively pitch at Kent due to Rawson and Curran's very good bowling at the start. From that situation, he took the score to 265 (which is about 300 in this age) and ultimately won the match for India. I can only imagine how it would've been worshipped here if Imran had played that innings and further went on to lift the world cup at 24 years of age against the almighty west indian team with over 300 runs at an avg of 60 @110 with the bat and 12 wickets at an avg of 20 @2.9 with the ball.

Sadly he is one of the most under appreciated cricketers ever even by the Indian fans. Even during his playing days, Gavaskar was sold as the poster boy of Indian cricket as he was from a posh city upbringing while Kapil belonged to a more modest background and didn't have the mumbai lobby behind him as well. Kapil is no doubt respected by Indian fans, but his name comes only after the Gavskars, Tendulkars, Dravids and the Kohlis. For me, Imran epitomised hard work, grit and determination and he turned from a decent medium pacer and lower order batsman to a world class fast bowler and a solid middle order batsman and was a supreme match winner above all. If Djokovic had played cricket in the 80s, he probably would've been the Imran of cricket then. Kapil comes across a player who always played with a smile with flair and charisma. Kapil once said that Tendulkar underachieved in his career. Ironically it appears to me that Kapil was the one who underachieved in his career. He was a batsman who in this age, would've been someone batting at Jadeja's position in the Indian team, scoring a quickfire 30-35 @140 to 150 sr every time with the bat and opening the bowling with the new ball as well. He is arguably the most naturally gifted athlete to come out of the subcontinent (batting, bowling, fielding) and I kinda feel he could've achieved more if he had played up the order as a batsman more and bowled in a team with a stronger bowling attack than the average Indian attack he carried for around 15 years.

 

[Slog]

Lol Kapil would have averaged 35 @ strike rate of 150 in the modern era?!?!

Anything else

Would have averaged 15 with the ball I bet

 

[#GreenRoars]

not posting any more w.r.t topic. I will stick on with my belief.
i have conveyed my points already.

I applied your logic and took out stats, but still it doesnt prove that KD was better Test bowler/batsman than IK (in Test)?

 

[street cricketer]

Lol Kapil would have averaged 35 @ strike rate of 150 in the modern era?!?!

Anything else

Would have averaged 15 with the ball I bet

He averaged 25 @100-110 in the 80s.

Do you think the team totals haven't increased or the scoring rates haven't?

 

[Slog]

He averaged 25 @100-110 in the 80s.

Do you think the team totals haven't increased or the scoring rates haven't?

No it was 24 @ 95.

There is nothing to suggest his record would have been significantly different due to the cavalier style of play. His style of play wouldn't have meant that he would have been playing longer innings. I think his average would have been similar though I agree SR may have jumped up to 100-110. Players who play his style generally would have similar strike rates. For eg a guy like Afridi (using for comparison sake) had similar strike rate and average in 1996 as he did in 2015. Going by your logic both should have increased because the overall team totals and scoring rates have increased. But no this hasn't happened due to the cavalier style of play and the high risks associated with that

By the same token do you also think VIv Richards 47 @ 90 would have been around 60 average at strike rate of 140?

Get real

 

[street cricketer]

No it was 24 @ 95.

There is nothing to suggest his record would have been significantly different due to the cavalier style of play. His style of play wouldn't have meant that he would have been playing longer innings. I think his average would have been similar though I agree SR may have jumped up to 100-110. Players who play his style generally would have similar strike rates. For eg a guy like Afridi (using for comparison sake) had similar strike rate and average in 1996 as he did in 2015. Going by your logic both should have increased because the overall team totals and scoring rates have increased. But no this hasn't happened due to the cavalier style of play and the high risks associated with that

By the same token do you also think VIv Richards 47 @ 90 would have been around 60 average at strike rate of 140?

Get real

Like I said, his batting declined after the start of the 90s.

He averaged around 27 @102 in the 80s. The batsman with the next highest strike rate was Viv with 91.

I see no reason why Viv wouldn't have been averaging 55-60 with a sr of 110-120. Yes, I may have exaggerated the sr but he could have easily been averaging 30-35 @130 at his peak in this era. And Afridi is not the greatest of examples.

 

[Slog]

Also it's a bit mind boggling that Imran not playing st #7 or so is being somehow used against him. The strike rate issue is not as strong a point as some people like to believe because Imran strikes at 90-105 at #7 or lower so certainly there was the ability to play at a quicker rate. But just because he batted higher and played the anchor role as it was the requirement of the team should not be used against him in such an argument. Let's be honest in 70s and 80s, it was equally important to have someone bat and hold an end because it allows others to play around you.

Also the better batsman plays higher up. It's just natural esp considering India didn't have the strongest middle order for part of his career. So If Kapil had the ability to average even 35@80 I am sure he would have played higher more regularly. To say that he wasn't an inconsistent batsman is just not factual.

Kapil maybe a better ODI player but no he was not far ahead of Imran in any aspect. At best he may shade Imran as an ODI Cricketer but it's a very valid and perfectly acceptable opinion of someone thinks Imran was the better ODI cricketer. Because there are enough evidences and achievements to make that argument. What is certain is that Imran was clearly superior to Kapil in tests and majority will always agree to that. So let's stop this delusion that Imran and Kapil were cricketers at a similar level overall

 

[Sidilicious]

Also it's a bit mind boggling that Imran not playing st #7 or so is being somehow used against him. The strike rate issue is not as strong a point as some people like to believe because Imran strikes at 90-105 at #7 or lower so certainly there was the ability to play at a quicker rate. But just because he batted higher and played the anchor role as it was the requirement of the team should not be used against him in such an argument. Let's be honest in 70s and 80s, it was equally important to have someone bat and hold an end because it allows others to play around you.

Also the better batsman plays higher up. It's just natural esp considering India didn't have the strongest middle order for part of his career. So If Kapil had the ability to average even 35@80 I am sure he would have played higher more regularly. To say that he wasn't an inconsistent batsman is just not factual.

Kapil maybe a better ODI player but no he was not far ahead of Imran in any aspect. At best he may shade Imran as an ODI Cricketer but it's a very valid and perfectly acceptable opinion of someone thinks Imran was the better ODI cricketer. Because there are enough evidences and achievements to make that argument. What is certain is that Imran was clearly superior to Kapil in tests and majority will always agree to that. So let's stop this delusion that Imran and Kapil were cricketers at a similar level overall

The thing with Imran in ODIs is that he was never a really good ODI batsman and a great ODI bowler at the same time. His peak in batting started after his bowling had declined. He was a great ODI bowler through out the 80s, but it was only until 89 when his batting came up another tier or 2 (it was in 89 that we ranked world no.1 all rounder). But post 89, when his batting become really good, his bowling had declined.

As for Kapil, throughout the 80s he was a world class ODI bowler and a good batsman. His peak happened simultaneously till 89, after which his batting and bowling declined.

 

[street cricketer]

Also it's a bit mind boggling that Imran not playing st #7 or so is being somehow used against him. The strike rate issue is not as strong a point as some people like to believe because Imran strikes at 90-105 at #7 or lower so certainly there was the ability to play at a quicker rate. But just because he batted higher and played the anchor role as it was the requirement of the team should not be used against him in such an argument. Let's be honest in 70s and 80s, it was equally important to have someone bat and hold an end because it allows others to play around you.

Also the better batsman plays higher up. It's just natural esp considering India didn't have the strongest middle order for part of his career. So If Kapil had the ability to average even 35@80 I am sure he would have played higher more regularly. To say that he wasn't an inconsistent batsman is just not factual.

Kapil maybe a better ODI player but no he was not far ahead of Imran in any aspect. At best he may shade Imran as an ODI Cricketer but it's a very valid and perfectly acceptable opinion of someone thinks Imran was the better ODI cricketer. Because there are enough evidences and achievements to make that argument. What is certain is that Imran was clearly superior to Kapil in tests and majority will always agree to that. So let's stop this delusion that Imran and Kapil were cricketers at a similar level overall

Lol what is with many Pakistani fans getting all sensitive whenever the name of Imran is brought up and going "WE WON'T LET ANYONE TO GET COMPARED WITH IMRAN EVER!"..

I don't think anyone even denies that Imran was the better overall cricketer. Not to mention his excellent captaincy record as well and was one of the greatest ever Test captains. But let's not denigrate other players just because they get compared to Imran.

How was Kapil more inconsistent when he has 6 fifties at no.7 while Imran has just one? Kapil has a century and 11 50s playing at 6 or below while Imran has 8 fifties. How was he more inconsistent?

How is a player who was ranked 10 years straight at the top as an all rounder just at par or at best a shade above a player who was ranked at the top for just 2 months in his career?

Like I said, there are somethings where bias can never be eliminated and Imran in PP is one of those. It's like Sachin in the Indian forums. So I won't argue any further. Let's leave it at that.

 

[Slog]

Lol what is with many Pakistani fans getting all sensitive whenever the name of Imran is brought up and going "WE WON'T LET ANYONE TO GET COMPARED WITH IMRAN EVER!"..

I don't think anyone even denies that Imran was the better overall cricketer. Not to mention his excellent captaincy record as well and was one of the greatest ever Test captains. But let's not denigrate other players just because they get compared to Imran.

How was Kapil more inconsistent when he has 6 fifties at no.7 while Imran has just one? Kapil has a century and 11 50s playing at 6 or below while Imran has 8 fifties. How was he more inconsistent?

How is a player who was ranked 10 years straight at the top as an all rounder just at par or at best a shade above a player who was ranked at the top for just 2 months in his career?

Like I said, there are somethings where bias can never be eliminated and Imran in PP is one of those. It's like Sachin in the Indian forums. So I won't argue any further. Let's leave it at that.

You are making a straw man.

Imran didn't play lower down the order more regularly so comparing their number of fifties is a moot point

There's no sensitivity on my part here. I have accepted Kapil has a case to be a greater ODI cricketer and that's that. However the issue comes when this is extended to overall careers and test career. As overall cricketer he is far behind and that is fact corroborated by many experts. The Sachin comparison isn't relevant because many PPers actually do admit that Sobers was arguably better and even go as far as to admit that Kapil maybe better in ODIs. This is in stark contrast to majority Sachin fans on Indian forums and even here for whom Sachin is the greatest batsmen since eternity and for all of time and in all formats. And let's not ignore the denigration they do to other batsmen just for Sachin.

The issue is with you and other Indians here where they are trying to disingenuously try to portray as if Imran was a poor ODI player and that Kapil is the greatest thing since sliced bread whereas that is simply not the case. Kapil is perhaps an ATG ODI cricketer but Imran is not far behind. Pointing to strike rates doesn't help because Imran had a different role in the team. His strike rate isn't low due to lack of ability but due to lack of need at the time according to team plan.

However through these disingenuous tidbits a narrative is constructed that Kapil overall was comparable to Imran and at same level while that is simply not the case. As cricketers Kapil was clearly the 3rd/4th best all rounder of that era.

 

[ethan hunt]

Laughable to suggest that kapil was some great ODI batsman when infact he has a mediocre record and a poor one against the better bowling sides .

With an over all average of 24 and around 15-20 against the better bowling sides with about 14 fifties in over 200 matches it's ridiculous to suggest so.

Razzaq definitely has more match winning innings than kapil with the bat and i am not even trolling .

 

[The Last Of The Stars]

Kapil Dev belongs to the category of Shahid Afridi when it comes to ODI batting.

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

If Imran was able to bat and bowl at the same time in ODIs, he would have been the better AR in ODIs.

Till 1988 (where almost their careers had come to an end and perceptions had ALREADY been formed)...

Imran averaged 29 with 73 SR with the bat....and 21 with the ball (101 games).

Kapil averaged 27 with 109 SR with the bat....and 26 with the ball (132 games).

At this point, considering the kind of bowling attack Kapil led and his numbers with the bat...you can see why Kapil was better.

But later on post 1988, Imran averaged 40 with the bat and 36 with the ball till 1992 (playing here and there) which skewed up stats and made the comparison confusing.

In the end, there isn't much gap between these 2 (due to Imran catching up big time with the bat - you can even make a case of Imran being more effective with the bat even though he wasn't as dynamic).....but you can why there is so much confusion.

Its a fair debate.

I think for majority of his career, Kapil was better than Imran so it must go to Kapil though the gap isn't much (especially considering the catch up Imran played). Rating Imran ahead of Kapil is also a understandable cos Imran was very effective from a team's point of view.

Hope that clears things up.

 

[street cricketer]

You are making a straw man.

Imran didn't play lower down the order more regularly so comparing their number of fifties is a moot point

My point was not to stress that Kapil was a better lower order batsman than Imran. It was to convey that Kapil was not an inconsistent batsman. One thing many people here tend to ignore is that 220 or 230 was probably the par team total in the 80s. So an average of 27@100 is by no means "inconsistent".

There's no sensitivity on my part here. I have accepted Kapil has a case to be a greater ODI cricketer and that's that. However the issue comes when this is extended to overall careers and test career. As overall cricketer he is far behind and that is fact corroborated by many experts. The Sachin comparison isn't relevant because many PPers actually do admit that Sobers was arguably better and even go as far as to admit that Kapil maybe better in ODIs. This is in stark contrast to majority Sachin fans on Indian forums and even here for whom Sachin is the greatest batsmen since eternity and for all of time and in all formats. And let's not ignore the denigration they do to other batsmen just for Sachin.

Is it really so? Just in this same thread, Kapil has been termed as "just a decent all rounder", "an overrated slogger", "an average trundler" and a "tailender who could slog". If anything, I find the insecurity here far higher as I have hardly seen Sanga or Anwar or Inzi being called overrated hack, etc. by Sachin fans. You are probably the only guy who has actually admitted that Kapil atleast "has a case" in ODI cricket to be considered better.

Now this is a guy who was ranked the no.1 all rounder for 10 years, had a much higher peak than Imran in both batting, bowling, was consistently ranked higher in both departments for long periods and he was a far better fielder as well. That is ignoring that he won a world cup for his country as a captain at just 24 years of age against the legendary west indian team, with his all round performance in batting, bowling and fielding with over 300 runs @60 (sr 110) and 12 wickets @20 (er 2.4). All I'm saying is that Kapil was comfortably the better ODI all rounder for me. However I have time and again admitted (as have most Indian fans) that Imran was an overall much better cricketer especially considering his great captaincy record, but no, Imranistas don't want Kapil to be even mentioned in the same sentence as Imran

The issue is with you and other Indians here where they are trying to disingenuously try to portray as if Imran was a poor ODI player and that Kapil is the greatest thing since sliced bread whereas that is simply not the case. Kapil is perhaps an ATG ODI cricketer but Imran is not far behind. Pointing to strike rates doesn't help because Imran had a different role in the team. His strike rate isn't low due to lack of ability but due to lack of need at the time according to team plan.

However through these disingenuous tidbits a narrative is constructed that Kapil overall was comparable to Imran and at same level while that is simply not the case. As cricketers Kapil was clearly the 3rd/4th best all rounder of that era.

Please point to where I have disingenuously portrayed Imran as a "poor ODI cricketer". I have mentioned many times that Imran was an ATG all rounder in both formats and he was a world class fast bowler and a solid batsman. I'm not insecure enough to disparage Imran in a quest to big up Kapil. I enjoy cricket regardless of the teams and I admire Imran as by far the greatest ever bowling all rounder to have played in cricket. Personally, I find this belittling of cricketers very silly and it's not my thing.

 

[Adijazz1706]

If Imran was able to bat and bowl at the same time in ODIs, he would have been the better AR in ODIs.

Till 1988 (where almost their careers had come to an end and perceptions had ALREADY been formed)...

Imran averaged 29 with 73 SR with the bat....and 21 with the ball (101 games).

Kapil averaged 27 with 109 SR with the bat....and 26 with the ball (132 games).

At this point, considering the kind of bowling attack Kapil led and his numbers with the bat...you can see why Kapil was better.

But later on post 1988, Imran averaged 40 with the bat and 36 with the ball till 1992 which skewed up stats and made the comparison confusing.

In the end, there isn't much gap between these 2 (due to Imran catching up big time with the bat - you can even make a case of Imran being more effective with the bat even though he wasn't as dynamic).....but you can why there is so much confusion.

Its a fair debate.

I think for majority of his career, Kapil was better than Imran so it must go to Kapil.

Overall, the gap isn't much considering the catch up Imran played with the bat. Rating Imran ahead of Kapil is also a understandable cos Imran was very effective from a team's point of view.

Hope that clears things up.

Debut-2007 Ponting averaged ~59 and looked to have surpassed Sachin as a Test Bat, his decline in 2008-2011 put him back slightly behind Sachin overall. Do you think that we can put Ponting ahead of Sachin using a similar argument to yours in this post?

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

Debut-2007 Ponting averaged ~59 and looked to have surpassed Sachin as a Test Bat, his decline in 2008-2011 put him back slightly behind Sachin overall. Do you think that we can put Ponting ahead of Sachin using a similar argument to yours in this post?

But you made a small mistake.

Sachin averaged 56.97 till 2011 WC after playing 172 tests (Ponting averaged 53.5 after 152 tests at that time).

Plus his peak from 1993-2003 (10 years)..he averaged 63 while the next best was 56. Ponting never had such huge long peaks.

So......

 

[ethan hunt]

If Imran was able to bat and bowl at the same time in ODIs, he would have been the better AR in ODIs.

Till 1988 (where almost their careers had come to an end and perceptions had ALREADY been formed)...

Imran averaged 29 with 73 SR with the bat....and 21 with the ball (101 games).

Kapil averaged 27 with 109 SR with the bat....and 26 with the ball (132 games).

At this point, considering the kind of bowling attack Kapil led and his numbers with the bat...you can see why Kapil was better.

But later on post 1988, Imran averaged 40 with the bat and 36 with the ball till 1992 (playing here and there) which skewed up stats and made the comparison confusing.

In the end, there isn't much gap between these 2 (due to Imran catching up big time with the bat - you can even make a case of Imran being more effective with the bat even though he wasn't as dynamic).....but you can why there is so much confusion.

Its a fair debate.

I think for majority of his career, Kapil was better than Imran so it must go to Kapil though the gap isn't much (especially considering the catch up Imran played). Rating Imran ahead of Kapil is also a understandable cos Imran was very effective from a team's point of view.

Hope that clears things up.

Fair viewpoint . But even going by your time frame an average diiference of around 5 is significant and i dont believe in this weak bowling attack argument , good bowlers shine regardless but even than PAkistan was not some beastly ODi attack in the 70 and 80s .

 

[Sidilicious]

Debut-2007 Ponting averaged ~59 and looked to have surpassed Sachin as a Test Bat, his decline in 2008-2011 put him back slightly behind Sachin overall. Do you think that we can put Ponting ahead of Sachin using a similar argument to yours in this post?

You didnt get the point. Imran was a great ODI bowler + a good ODI batsman at DIFFERENT times. Other than 89, he was never both at the same period.

Kapil's best, on the other hand, came at the same time.