Imran Khan vs Kapil Dev : The Ultimate Comparison

[Slog]

[MENTION=134608]Hawkeye[/MENTION]

To claim that Kapil was a tailender is simply not true at all. He was a dynamic ODI batsman who was pretty much in the same class as someone like McCullum.

Look at some of the knocks that he played against some of the all-time great bowlers. Tailenders cannot play such knocks.

Also, Kapil has played one of the finest innings in World Cup history while Imran hasn't. He played some good knocks but he nowhere near Kapil's.

Also, you are making it sound as if Imran was a master batsman and Kapil was a nobody. Imran averaged 10 runs higher, but look at the SR difference.

Also, as pointed out by another poster, the aggregate runs is not much different for the two batsmen and nor is the number of 50s and 100s.

This shows that both batsmen were roughly at the same level but with contrasting styles.

Imran was more reliable and had better temperament, which explains why he averaged higher.

On the contrary, Kapil was more dynamic and explosive, which explains why he had a superior SR. A SR that was unreal for his era.

ODI cricket is mostly about impact. Kapil influenced more games with this powerful batting which is why he was ranked number one for a decade and Imran was not.

Can anyone share where they get the 'ranked number one for a decade' claim. My doubting it but would be interesting to know source

Also I think you have to look at it this way too.
A 34@75 in 1980s was Very good and something most teams would take in a heart beat. Secondly Imran and Kapils roles are different too. Imrans SR at #6,7 is 80+ and its 99 at #8. The problem you are ignoring is that in the context of those days it was more expedient to have a reliable batsman than one who could go crazy but be unreliable. No one was chasing at even 5 runs per over so if you had a batsman who have you a good 30/40 at a SR of 75 he was overall a better bet than someone who averaged 20@100.

I rate Kapil as the better ODI batsman just slightly. But it's not because of his high strike rate. Rather it's because of Imrans low average. If Imran had averaged 37,38 even then for the context of cricket in that period he was the more valuable batsman 9 times out of 10.

 

[Haroon786]

Imran was also an ATG captain.

Imran >>>>> Kapil in Tests.

Imran > Kapil in ODIs.

 

[Slog]

For comparisons sake Sunil Gavaskar, probably the best Asian batsman of the generation, averaged 35 @ 62. Imran has a better record.

 

[Sachin136]

Can anyone share where they get the 'ranked number one for a decade' claim. My doubting it but would be interesting to know source

http://www.relianceiccrankings.com/playerdisplay/odi/all-rounder/?id=1850&graph=ranking

 

[Slog]

http://www.relianceiccrankings.com/playerdisplay/odi/all-rounder/?id=1850&graph=ranking

That's what I found too

But that just says he was top in 1983. Where can we see the time period at top.

Actually I would also be interested to see how long dale Steyn was at top if we could do that

 

[Mamoon]

Funny how some hypocrites are totally ignoring Kapil's poor WC numbers, yet are the first ones to bring WC performances up when the player being discussed is Amla, Inzamam or de Villiers.

Firstly, de Villiers and Amla (greatest bottler in Limited Overs history) do not belong in the same list as Inzamam, who is alongside players like Dhoni, Kapil and Aravinda de Silva who don't have a great overall record in World Cups but have played great, iconic innings in World Cups that make up for their other failures.

Dhoni's 91* in the 2011 final;

Kapil's 175* in 1983 when India were 17-5 and no other batsmen could score more than 25;

de Silva 107* in the 1996 final when Sri Lanka were 23-2;

All of these innings are amongst the greatest in World Cup history, innings that neither de Villiers and certainly not Amla have played in World Cups so far, unless you consider de Villiers' innings vs West Indies in a group game against a poor bowling attack with SA well-placed as good as the aforementioned knocks.

Or perhaps if you really like Amla, you can consider his hundreds against Netherlands and Ireland, matches which SA sailed from the start as great and iconic as the aforementioned innings.

 

[Mamoon]

Can anyone share where they get the 'ranked number one for a decade' claim. My doubting it but would be interesting to know source

Also I think you have to look at it this way too.
A 34@75 in 1980s was Very good and something most teams would take in a heart beat. Secondly Imran and Kapils roles are different too. Imrans SR at #6,7 is 80+ and its 99 at #8. The problem you are ignoring is that in the context of those days it was more expedient to have a reliable batsman than one who could go crazy but be unreliable. No one was chasing at even 5 runs per over so if you had a batsman who have you a good 30/40 at a SR of 75 he was overall a better bet than someone who averaged 20@100.

I rate Kapil as the better ODI batsman just slightly. But it's not because of his high strike rate. Rather it's because of Imrans low average. If Imran had averaged 37,38 even then for the context of cricket in that period he was the more valuable batsman 9 times out of 10.

Buffet provided the rankings in detail in some other thread, and he did an an excellent job of explaining why Kapil was a better ODI all-rounder than Imran.

I have already explained in the post that you quoted that when you consider all aspects, both batsmen were roughly at the same level but with contrasting styles, but I believe that Kapil's outstanding SR for his era was the major reason why he dominated the rankings, since a batsman who could strike at 95 in an era where a SR of 70 was deemed excellent clearly influenced more matches than someone like Imran.

I agree that if Imran had a better average, he would be considered a better batsman. It goes back to the Tendulkar-Afridi analogy.

I also certainly agree that the gap between them isn't as big as it is in Tests. Imran was 'much' better in Tests, while Kapil was better in ODIs.

It is a given of course but just so that we are clear.

 

[Mamoon]

Do you rate virender sehwag higher than sachin tendulkar ??

As for the point about impact , i dont think odi ranking measure things like impact and other qualitative factors .Correct me if i am wrong.

Sehwag underachieved in ODIs a lot.

He is the greatest Test opener ever in Asian conditions and should also have been the greatest ODI opener in Asian conditions, but he wasn't consistent enough for an opener.

A player like him should have had 30 ODI hundreds at least.

Nonetheless, in the 2000's, he was definitely a more dangerous and impactful opener than Tendulkar, who became an accumulator after his back and tennis elbow injury in late 90's/early 2000's while Sehwag was the one who took on the bowlers.

Teams definitely feared Sehwag more during the time they opened together. However, one cannot ignore Tendulkar's aggressive batting style in the 90's, he was a different player back then.

If we look at the overall careers, Tendulkar is a more impactful ODI player.

If we look at the time they played together, Sehwag was more impactful.

ODI rankings measure impact because it considers both your average and SR and adjust points according to the level of opposition.

Runs against a high ranked team has more points than runs against low ranked teams. Hence, I would say that although the ranking system is far from perfect, it takes a more accurate measure of 'impact' than aggregate stats.

 

[Hawkeye]

For comparisons sake Sunil Gavaskar, probably the best Asian batsman of the generation, averaged 35 @ 62. Imran has a better record.

That's a shocking fact.

If it's true, goes to show how difficult it was to bat with consistency, maintaining a decent average in that era.

Your stats do not answer why Kapil was the number one ranked ODI all-rounder for a decade in the presence of Imran.

Mamoon, I think we're talking about ranking well out of context. It doesn't mean he was the superior ODI cricketer.

And like Slog said, both played different roles in the team too - IK's strike rate lower down the order are unreal for that era as well.

And then there's big difference in averages.

Anyway, it's your opinion and if someone was to say Kapil was just slightly better in ODIs, that's understandable.

But some make it sound like Kapil >>> ODIs, that's bias.

 

[Mamoon]

That's a shocking fact.

If it's true, goes to show how difficult it was to bat with consistency, maintaining a decent average in that era.



Mamoon, I think we're talking about ranking well out of context. It doesn't mean he was the superior ODI cricketer.

And like Slog said, both played different roles in the team too - IK's strike rate lower down the order are unreal for that era as well.

And then there's big difference in averages.

Anyway, it's your opinion and if someone was to say Kapil was just slightly better in ODIs, that's understandable.

But some make it sound like Kapil >>> ODIs, that's bias.

We should also considered that Kapil's batting was also hampered by his batting position.

He was more than good enough to play in the top-order and allow himself more time to play longer innings and have better stats.

Ultimately, your playing style and strengths and weaknesses play a part in your batting position. Imran and Kapil had different strengths, but Kapil's strengths made him more impactful.

Well if you rank number one for a decade in spite of such good competition, it is hard to deny that you were a superior ODI cricketer.

Kapil was not a better bowler than Imran but he was a better ODI batsman and is easily the best fielder Asia has ever produced.

He also led India to a World Cup win at the age of 24, 9 years before Imran against the greatest team ever and played one of the greatest, if not the greatest World Cup innings ever.

Imran could not deliver a World Cup till he was 40.

Considering all things, I believe Kapil was a better ODI cricketer than Imran.

On the other hand, Imran was a much better Test cricket and thus overall, Imran was better.

 

[Hawkeye]

We should also considered that Kapil's batting was also hampered by his batting position.

He was more than good enough to play in the top-order and allow himself more time to play longer innings and have better stats.

Ultimately, your playing style and strengths and weaknesses play a part in your batting position. Imran and Kapil had different strengths, but Kapil's strengths made him more impactful.

Well if you rank number one for a decade in spite of such good competition, it is hard to deny that you were a superior ODI cricketer.

Kapil was not a better bowler than Imran but he was a better ODI batsman and is easily the best fielder Asia has ever produced.

He also led India to a World Cup win at the age of 24, 9 years before Imran against the greatest team ever and played one of the greatest, if not the greatest World Cup innings ever.

Imran could not deliver a World Cup till he was 40.

Considering all things, I believe Kapil was a better ODI cricketer than Imran.

On the other hand, Imran was a much better Test cricket and thus overall, Imran was better.

Fair enough.

 

[Mamoon]

Gavaskar wasn't a great ODI batsman, but one cannot ignore that he had to face some of the greatest bowlers in history with the new ball.

I think if Imran would have opened regularly in the 80's, his stats would probably have been worse than Gavaskar's.

Not a fair comparison in my opinion, but no one is claiming that Imran's stats are bad for his era. It is just that Kapil's SR was outrageous for his era.

 

[Sachin136]

That's what I found too

But that just says he was top in 1983. Where can we see the time period at top.

Actually I would also be interested to see how long dale Steyn was at top if we could do that

Scroll over that graph. It shows that he was ranked #1 from 1983 to 1994.

 

[The_Odd_One]

[MENTION=134608]Hawkeye[/MENTION]

To claim that Kapil was a tailender is simply not true at all. He was a dynamic ODI batsman who was pretty much in the same class as someone like McCullum.

Look at some of the knocks that he played against some of the all-time great bowlers. Tailenders cannot play such knocks.

<b>Also, Kapil has played one of the finest innings in World Cup history while Imran hasn't. He played some good knocks but he nowhere near Kapil's.</b>

Also, you are making it sound as if Imran was a master batsman and Kapil was a nobody. Imran averaged 10 runs higher, but look at the SR difference.

Also, as pointed out by another poster, the aggregate runs is not much different for the two batsmen and nor is the number of 50s and 100s.

This shows that both batsmen were roughly at the same level but with contrasting styles.

Imran was more reliable and had better temperament, which explains why he averaged higher.

On the contrary, Kapil was more dynamic and explosive, which explains why he had a superior SR. A SR that was unreal for his era.

ODI cricket is mostly about impact. Kapil influenced more games with this powerful batting which is why he was ranked number one for a decade and Imran was not.

Kapil scored that 175 against Zimbabwe in a group match. All the bowlers he faced averaged in 30s or 40s. How was it not a minnow bashing? Is not it the same argument you always bring up against Devilliers that he does not have a memorable WC knockout performance? Kapil scored 46 runs in 2 semi-finals and one final that he played.

Imran came to bat in the world cup final when scorecard read 1/20. In the semi-final, he came to bat when score was 1/30. Both times he handled all the pressure. Kapil never batted in the top 5 in any WC semi-final and final. Did he not have stomach for fight like Devilliers?

Imran's WC final knock is greater than Kapil's 175 just because it was played in a WC final that Pakistan won.

 

[Sidilicious]

Kapil scored that 175 against Zimbabwe in a group match. All the bowlers he faced averaged in 30s or 40s. How was it not a minnow bashing? Is not it the same argument you always bring up against Devilliers that he does not have a memorable WC knockout performance? Kapil scored 46 runs in 2 semi-finals and one final that he played.

Imran came to bat in the world cup final when scorecard read 1/20. In the semi-final, he came to bat when score was 1/30. Both times he handled all the pressure. Kapil never batted in the top 5 in any WC semi-final and final. Did he not have stomach for fight like Devilliers?

Imran's WC final knock is greater than Kapil's 175 just because it was played in a WC final that Pakistan won.

Tell me 1 neutral who rates Imran's knock that highly. Kapil's knock is always in the top knock world cup knocks of all time by neutrals.

 

[street cricketer]

Indeed. And then they claim the Indians to be most biased.

Another thing, whenever someone puts in a pretty good balanced post, with good arguments, people stop responding to that post altogether.

Pak fans often say Indians worship Sachin, and I very much agree.

But I have found many Pak fans very touchy about Imran and are equally sensitive, if not more. The two are afterall the best cricketers produced by our two countries

 

[Belawal2014]

Pak fans often say Indians worship Sachin, and I very much agree.

But I have found many Pak fans very touchy about Imran and are equally sensitive, if not more. The two are afterall the best cricketers produced by our two countries

Yeah, but Imran was the better of the two.

 

[street cricketer]

Yeah, but Imran was the better of the two.

I ain't gettin sucked into that

 

[RamLakhan]

Yeah, but Imran was the better of the two.

But the fact is everyone knows which team doesn't have a player even 0.99% of either of these two cricketers at the moment! That should be the more worrying factor (shouldn't we live more in the present?)

 

[Belawal2014]

But the fact is everyone knows which team doesn't have a player even 0.99% of either of these two cricketers at the moment! That should be the more worrying factor (shouldn't we live more in the present?)

By 0.99%, I guess you're hinting at Sir Stuart Binny? Nahi chahiye aisa player, aap hi rakhein.

 

[Mamoon]

Kapil scored that 175 against Zimbabwe in a group match. All the bowlers he faced averaged in 30s or 40s. How was it not a minnow bashing? Is not it the same argument you always bring up against Devilliers that he does not have a memorable WC knockout performance? Kapil scored 46 runs in 2 semi-finals and one final that he played.

Imran came to bat in the world cup final when scorecard read 1/20. In the semi-final, he came to bat when score was 1/30. Both times he handled all the pressure. Kapil never batted in the top 5 in any WC semi-final and final. Did he not have stomach for fight like Devilliers?

Imran's WC final knock is greater than Kapil's 175 just because it was played in a WC final that Pakistan won.

Kapil scored 175 when India were reeling at 21/5 and no other Indian batsman in that match could score more than 25.

How is that not an incredible performance regardless of everything else? Can you show me an innings of de Villiers in World Cups which comes close to that?

His innings vs Pakistan was shaping up to be an incredible one before he threw it away.

Minnow bashing is not always minnow bashing. No one would call Inzamam's Multan heroics in 2003 as minnow bashing because it was against Bangladesh, or Younis Khan's 200 in Harare in 2013 because it was against Zimbabwe.

Given the match situation, they were incredible innings, just like Kapil's.

Imran's innings in the final was very good, but it was not better than Kapil's, which is one of the best innings in World Cup history.

 

[Hitman]

Kapil scored 175 when India were reeling at 21/5 and no other Indian batsman in that match could score more than 25.

How is that not an incredible performance regardless of everything else? Can you show me an innings of de Villiers in World Cups which comes close to that?

His innings vs Pakistan was shaping up to be an incredible one before he threw it away.

Minnow bashing is not always minnow bashing. No one would call Inzamam's Multan heroics in 2003 as minnow bashing because it was against Bangladesh, or Younis Khan's 200 in Harare in 2013 because it was against Zimbabwe.

Given the match situation, they were incredible innings, just like Kapil's.

Imran's innings in the final was very good, but it was not better than Kapil's, which is one of the best innings in World Cup history.

Most of his fans call that innings one of the best ever

 

[RamLakhan]

Kapil scored 175 when India were reeling at 21/5 and no other Indian batsman in that match could score more than 25.

How is that not an incredible performance regardless of everything else? Can you show me an innings of de Villiers in World Cups which comes close to that?

His innings vs Pakistan was shaping up to be an incredible one before he threw it away.

Minnow bashing is not always minnow bashing. No one would call Inzamam's Multan heroics in 2003 as minnow bashing because it was against Bangladesh, or Younis Khan's 200 in Harare in 2013 because it was against Zimbabwe.

Given the match situation, they were incredible innings, just like Kapil's.

Imran's innings in the final was very good, but it was not better than Kapil's, which is one of the best innings in World Cup history.

Absolutely right! Brett Lee was once taken for 100+ runs by Indian Batsmen at their prime best in an ODI match! That doesn't make him an inferior bowler (He was one of the superb bowler who used to swing the ball at brisk pace) Similarly you cannot call playing well against a lesser team who were good on a given day as minnow bashing (Zimbabwe on that day taking 5 wickets for cheap runs against a formidable Indian batting who were at least technically brilliant in that world cup... It takes some performance & skills)

 

[RamLakhan]

Most of his fans call that innings one of the best ever

Yes, but when it comes to Indians anything will be reduced to minnow bashing, personal/selfish innings, not ATG stuff, etc.

 

[The_Odd_One]

Tell me 1 neutral who rates Imran's knock that highly. Kapil's knock is always in the top knock world cup knocks of all time by neutrals.

Yes, that was a very good inning but it can never surpass a winning knock that was played in a WC final.

Did anybody even bother to check the bowling averages of Zimbabwe bowlers? Most of them were averaging in 40s and one in 50s.

And no, it is not even in the top 10 greatest WC knocks ever played.

1. Adam Gilchrist vs SL
2. Clive Lloyd vs Australia
3. Aravinda De Silva vs Aus
4. Ricky Ponting vs India
5. Steve Waugh vs SA
6. Michael Bevan vs WI
7. MS Dhoni vs SL
8. Inzamam ul Haq vs NZ
9. Viv Richards vs England
10. Sachin Tendulkar vs Pakistan
11. Martin Crowe vs Pakistan

 

[The_Odd_One]

Most of his fans call that innings one of the best ever

One of the best ever by a Pakistani batsman. None calls it one of the best ever in the history of test Cricket.

 

[Slog]

Absolutely right! Brett Lee was once taken for 100+ runs by Indian Batsmen at their prime best in an ODI match! That doesn't make him an inferior bowler (He was one of the superb bowler who used to swing the ball at brisk pace) Similarly you cannot call playing well against a lesser team who were good on a given day as minnow bashing (Zimbabwe on that day taking 5 wickets for cheap runs against a formidable Indian batting who were at least technically brilliant in that world cup... It takes some performance & skills)

What match was this (Lee)?

 

[Monsee]

One of the best ever by a Pakistani batsman. None calls it one of the best ever in the history of test Cricket.

Although we do know how this would have unfolded if that 'little one' was the batsman in Inzi's place, don't we

 

[The_Odd_One]

Kapil scored 175 when India were reeling at 21/5 and no other Indian batsman in that match could score more than 25.

How is that not an incredible performance regardless of everything else? Can you show me an innings of de Villiers in World Cups which comes close to that?

His innings vs Pakistan was shaping up to be an incredible one before he threw it away.

Minnow bashing is not always minnow bashing. No one would call Inzamam's Multan heroics in 2003 as minnow bashing because it was against Bangladesh, or Younis Khan's 200 in Harare in 2013 because it was against Zimbabwe.

Given the match situation, they were incredible innings, just like Kapil's.

Imran's innings in the final was very good, but it was not better than Kapil's, which is one of the best innings in World Cup history.

Yes but you will not call Inzamam's inning as one of the best test knocks ever played in test Cricket history. It will always be just a great knock played by a Pakistani batsman and will never find a spot even in the top 50 innings ever played.

Imran's inning was better because:
1. It was a world cup final.
2. England was a top team with a very good bowling attack.
3. He came to bat at 1/20.
4. He was not a specialist batsman but he promoted himself because his team needed him to step up and take the challenge.

 

[Robert]

Remember that the 1983 Zimboks knocked AUS out of the tournament....

 

[ethan hunt]

How does that kapil innings compare to the symonds hundred vs pakistan in the 2003 worldcup against an attack of wasim , waqar and akhtar .
Surely that was a much better innings that doesnt get the hype ??

 

[The_Odd_One]

Now busting a myth about Kapil being superior due to his high SR.

Kapil's high SR was not always good for his team. For example, check 1983 WC final.

He came to bat when India were 92/4. What did Kapil do? He played an Afridi inning. He scored 15 runs of 8 balls (187 SR) and left India at 110/5. Eventually, India got out on 183 which was a below par score.

Now, Kapil fans will go gaga about his high SR by just taking a cursory look at his SR on CricInfo. But very few will bother to inspect it closely and figure out that his high SR was sometimes not useful at all for his team.

 

[anoop]

Wisden placed 175 in top 5 odi knocks ever played.

 

[The_Odd_One]

Wisden placed 175 in top 5 odi knocks ever played.

Wisden also did not include any of Tendulkar's knocks in top 100. What do you say about it?

 

[Ab Fan]

Wisden also did not include any of Tendulkar's knocks in top 100. What do you say about it?

i.e in tests ..In odis, Sachin has lots of impactful memorable knocks.

 

[The_Odd_One]

i.e in tests ..In odis, Sachin has lots of impactful memorable knocks.

I know. I was just making a point that don't take Wisden as a gospel. Tendulkar played several great test knocks and there is no way none of his test knocks were in top 100.

 

[blue_champion]

Kapil Dev once held the best individual highest score in ODI's

Won the world cup in 1983 against probably the greatest team of all time...The greatest David-Goliath story ever...Infact became the first team apart from WI to win the world cup. Defended a measly total which is now a stuff of legends. Did not depend on others.....performed and delivered with bat,ball and in the field.Did not promote a self-agenda after winning it either.

Kapil once was once the highest wicket taker in tests

Kapil once was the highest wicket taker in ODI's.

Kapil never used tools and techniques of "Reverse Swing" to get wickets-became the highest wicket taker in both formats with sheer hard work.

Kapil was not a feared bowler with the ball agreed like say the 2 W's or the WI bowlers-but he still was the most respected Indian bowler by the opposition-then again I don't hear stories of Imran instilling fears in the opposition batsmen either-Yes he got the respect as he was the best bowler in the opposing side same as Kapil.

On the other hand Kapil the batsmen instilled fear in the opposition bowlers where as it was always meh Imran Khan-can hold the bat but nothing too threatening.

Kapil was leagues ahead and by that I mean leagues ahead of Imran as a fielder.

Both were supremely fit so a tie there.

Kapil was a desi to the core not a wannabe uptight English socialite....He was what the common man identified with and had no qualms about it.

Imran was always insecure about Kapil as he instructed batsmen not to give him wickets and probably the umpires too where as Kapil didn't care-the man just toiled away and played the game fair and square.

One thing I will give credit to Imran is that he mentored younger players which is missing from Kapil's legacy but this is not about man-management and just about their prowess as individual cricketers.

 

[sshakir411]

Kapil Dev once held the best individual highest score in ODI's

Won the world cup in 1983 against probably the greatest team of all time...The greatest David-Goliath story ever...Infact became the first team apart from WI to win the world cup. Defended a measly total which is now a stuff of legends. Did not depend on others.....performed and delivered with bat,ball and in the field.Did not promote a self-agenda after winning it either.

Kapil once was once the highest wicket taker in tests

Kapil once was the highest wicket taker in ODI's.

Kapil never used tools and techniques of "Reverse Swing" to get wickets-became the highest wicket taker in both formats with sheer hard work.

Kapil was not a feared bowler with the ball agreed like say the 2 W's or the WI bowlers-but he still was the most respected Indian bowler by the opposition-then again I don't hear stories of Imran instilling fears in the opposition batsmen either-Yes he got the respect as he was the best bowler in the opposing side same as Kapil.

On the other hand Kapil the batsmen instilled fear in the opposition bowlers where as it was always meh Imran Khan-can hold the bat but nothing too threatening.

Kapil was leagues ahead and by that I mean leagues ahead of Imran as a fielder.

Both were supremely fit so a tie there.

Kapil was a desi to the core not a wannabe uptight English socialite....He was what the common man identified with and had no qualms about it.

Imran was always insecure about Kapil as he instructed batsmen not to give him wickets and probably the umpires too where as Kapil didn't care-the man just toiled away and played the game fair and square.

One thing I will give credit to Imran is that he mentored younger players which is missing from Kapil's legacy but this is not about man-management and just about their prowess as individual cricketers.

best reason an Indian could come up with to show Kapil was better. Honestly, are they taught this kinda crap in school? Because resorting to pathetic excuses seems like a worrying trend.

 

[Sidilicious]

Yes, that was a very good inning but it can never surpass a winning knock that was played in a WC final.

Did anybody even bother to check the bowling averages of Zimbabwe bowlers? Most of them were averaging in 40s and one in 50s.

And no, it is not even in the top 10 greatest WC knocks ever played.

1. Adam Gilchrist vs SL
2. Clive Lloyd vs Australia
3. Aravinda De Silva vs Aus
4. Ricky Ponting vs India
5. Steve Waugh vs SA
6. Michael Bevan vs WI
7. MS Dhoni vs SL
8. Inzamam ul Haq vs NZ
9. Viv Richards vs England
10. Sachin Tendulkar vs Pakistan
11. Martin Crowe vs Pakistan

Again, please go and check most compilation of top innings in world cup by neutrals, and Kapil's 175 will generally be one of those innings.

 

[blue_champion]

best reason an Indian could come up with to show Kapil was better. Honestly, are they taught this kinda crap in school?

Let us not get into the conspiracy theories and which education system is better debate here. shall we?...let's leave it for another day

Anyway this is not a figment of imagination or revisionist history,I have heard Wasim Akram mention that many times sans the umpiring part.

 

[sshakir411]

Let us not get into the conspiracy theories and which education system is better debate here. shall we?...let's leave it for another day

Anyway this is not a figment of imagination or revisionist history,I have heard Wasim Akram mention that many times sans the umpiring part.

so Kapil was unable to get Pakistani batsmen out (even if Imran told them not to throw their wicket away) and hence was the better all rounder?

 

[blue_champion]

so Kapil was unable to get Pakistani batsmen out (even if Imran told them not to throw their wicket away) and hence was the better all rounder?

Err covered in my post
Point1-Insecurity
Point 2-Bad umpiring
Point 3-Belief in Hardwork rather than using tools and techniques of reverse swing

Now Missing in my Post
Add to the fact those flat pitches and good batsman like Zaheer and Javed etc getting 2nd and 3rd chances.

I doubt even if a Glem Mcgrath would do too much

You are a smart guy...do the math

 

[sshakir411]

Err covered in my post
Point1-Insecurity
Point 2-Bad umpiring
Point 3-Belief in Hardwork rather than using tools and techniques of reverse swing

Now Missing in my Post
Add to the fact those flat pitches and good batsman like Zaheer and Javed etc getting 2nd and 3rd chances.

I doubt even if a Glem Mcgrath would do too much

You are a smart guy...do the math

wow. I've heard it all today. Parosis never disappoint with their reasoning....by far the most comedic one I've heard in my time at PP.

Anyways, Kapil's inability to take wickets of a historically weak batting team speaks volumes of his ability as a bowler.

Also, if hearing Wasim Akram is proof for all...then we have also heard Shahid Afridi and Shoaib Akhtar tell tales of the day India's bhagwaan's legs were shaking because the bowling got too phassttt

 

[blue_champion]

wow. I've heard it all today. Parosis never disappoint with their reasoning....by far the most comedic one I've heard in my time at PP.

Anyways, Kapil's inability to take wickets of a historically weak batting team speaks volumes of his ability as a bowler.

Also, if hearing Wasim Akram is proof for all...then we have also heard Shahid Afridi and Shoaib Akhtar tell tales of the day India's bhagwaan's legs were shaking because the bowling got too phassttt

Yeah Shahid Afridi and Shoaib Akthar were team mates of Sachin and Sachin had told them didn't he?

Historically weak batting line up of Javed Miandad,Zaheer Abbas etc etc??? to add the games were being played in Pakistan so last thing you would expect the pakistani batsmen is to be weak

Also as far as Kapil's ability was concerned,You probably missed my point of him being the highest test wicket taker when he retired....so it doesn't need validation from anyone

 

[sshakir411]

Yeah Shahid Afridi and Shoaib Akthar were team mates of Sachin and Sachin had told them didn't he?

Historically weak batting line up of Javed Miandad,Zaheer Abbas etc etc??? to add the games were being played in Pakistan so last thing you would expect the pakistani batsmen is to be weak

Also as far as Kapil's ability was concerned,You probably missed my point of him being the highest test wicket taker when he retired....so it doesn't need validation from anyone

stopped taking you seriously after your pathetic reasoning of Kapil taking less wickets because Imran told the batsmen and umpires. LOL!. Seriously man, come back with something that will stick outside of India

 

[ethan hunt]

Kapil Dev once held the best individual highest score in ODI's

Won the world cup in 1983 against probably the greatest team of all time...The greatest David-Goliath story ever...Infact became the first team apart from WI to win the world cup. Defended a measly total which is now a stuff of legends. Did not depend on others.....performed and delivered with bat,ball and in the field.Did not promote a self-agenda after winning it either.

Kapil once was once the highest wicket taker in tests

Kapil once was the highest wicket taker in ODI's.

Kapil never used tools and techniques of "Reverse Swing" to get wickets-became the highest wicket taker in both formats with sheer hard work.

Kapil was not a feared bowler with the ball agreed like say the 2 W's or the WI bowlers-but he still was the most respected Indian bowler by the opposition-then again I don't hear stories of Imran instilling fears in the opposition batsmen either-Yes he got the respect as he was the best bowler in the opposing side same as Kapil.

On the other hand Kapil the batsmen instilled fear in the opposition bowlers where as it was always meh Imran Khan-can hold the bat but nothing too threatening.

Kapil was leagues ahead and by that I mean leagues ahead of Imran as a fielder.

Both were supremely fit so a tie there.

Kapil was a desi to the core not a wannabe uptight English socialite....He was what the common man identified with and had no qualms about it.

Imran was always insecure about Kapil as he instructed batsmen not to give him wickets and probably the umpires too where as Kapil didn't care-the man just toiled away and played the game fair and square.

One thing I will give credit to Imran is that he mentored younger players which is missing from Kapil's legacy but this is not about man-management and just about their prowess as individual cricketers.

I like how you have to use the word "once " for every kapil achievement.

Kapil lacked the most basic tool for reverse swing i-e "pace" , now only if he wasn't a trundler .

Let 's be honest here . Kapil lacked the looks or the charisma to pull socialites or pretty womnn like king richards and imran khan but i don't know why you even brought that up .

Imran was as insecure about kapil as wasim was about prasad .

 

[blue_champion]

stopped taking you seriously after your pathetic reasoning of Kapil taking less wickets because Imran told the batsmen and umpires. LOL!. Seriously man, come back with something that will stick outside of India

Hmm....I get it it now you did nto understand my post......I already said Kapil was the highest wicket taker when he ended his career.....and Imran feeling insecure doesn't diminish his skill as a cricketer-That was an example of the sportsmanship and feeling of insecurity displayed by both.

I did not need that one specific point to highlight Kapl Dev or Imran Khan the cricketer but when I add that known fact to all the other points I have made,it does make a difference.

 

[Slog]

Kapil was a desi to the core not a wannabe uptight English socialite....He was what the common man identified with and had no qualms about it.

Imran was always insecure about Kapil as he instructed batsmen not to give him wickets and probably the umpires too where as Kapil didn't care-the man just toiled away and played the game fair and square.

.

Lmao )

Is this what you guys are taught in school.

Also were you there when Imran was telling batsmen and umpires to not give wickets to Kapil ) (as if there were some opposition players Imran instructed and encouraged his batsmen to lose wickets to)

 

[Slog]

Next we hear that Wasim Akram was insecure about Venkatash Prasad!

Oh boy oh boy )

 

[Slog]

Let us not get into the conspiracy theories and which education system is better debate here. shall we?...let's leave it for another day

Anyway this is not a figment of imagination or revisionist history,I have heard Wasim Akram mention that many times sans the umpiring part.

Did Wasim Akram tell you this in private or were you here swell like you were there when Imran instructed his batsmen to lose wickets to some bowlers but not Kapil

Dunno whether your reasoning is more legit or Ferozs? [MENTION=139664]street cricketer[/MENTION] what do you say?

 

[blue_champion]

Next we hear that Wasim Akram was insecure about Venkatash Prasad!

Oh boy oh boy )

No That would be Amir Sohail anyway on topic I don't have any confidential inside dressing room info like most Pakistani fans seem to have-It is part of public domain as quoted by Wasim Akram

 

[Slog]

No That would be Amir Sohail anyway on topic I don't have any confidential inside dressing room info like most Pakistani fans seem to have-It is part of public domain as quoted by Wasim Akram

Yea do share where he said that.

Verbatim as you quote it

You've said that Wasim has said this many times so do quote two occasions

 

[blue_champion]

ah yes the bottle cap...surprised you know about it because India's tool to reverse was having the God scratch the seam or the wall applying a lozenge...that worked exactly the way your reasoning few posts earlier did.


still trying to make up my mind which reasoning was the best one to come from an Indian on this topic:

1) If Kapil bowled x amount of balls he would have taken more wickets than Imran
2) Imran told batsmen and umpires to not give any wicket to Kapil
3) Kapil had weaker bowlers around him so his wickets have more value

^^^ the one song that fits all these excuses would be Govinda's famous hit : IT HAPPENS ONLY IN INDIA!!

Point 1) Kapil indeed did have more wickets than Imran in both tests and ODI's-Check
2)Imran told batsmen and umpires to not give any wicket to Kapil- Part 1 as quoted by Wasim Akram....Part 2 world opinion on Pakistani umpiring pre 90's-Check
3)Yes good point but since that is not a tangible measure,I will leave it people'sown judgement-Check

Hope that solidifies your conclusion

 

[Slog]

Point 1) Kapil indeed did have more wickets than Imran in both tests and ODI's-Check
2)Imran told batsmen and umpires to not give any wicket to Kapil- Part 1 as quoted by Wasim Akram....Part 2 world opinion on Pakistani umpiring pre 90's-Check
3)Yes good point but since that is not a tangible measure,I will leave it people'sown judgement-Check

Hope that solidifies your conclusion

Part 4) you are a deusional person. Kapil was a mediocre cricketer compared to Imran Khan. Majority of cricket watching world admits that and what some deusional small time Indian posters say doesn't change anything. Must hurt you that Kapil always ends up behind Imran, Sobers, Hadlee and Botham

 

[Slog]

Btw talking about insecurity Kapil himself expressed it in a show once where he seemed insecure at Imran Khan being an Oxford graduate while he didn't even know how to properly communicate till he got into international cricket

 

[blue_champion]

Part 4) you are a deusional person. Kapil was a mediocre cricketer compared to Imran Khan. Majority of cricket watching world admits that and what some deusional small time Indian posters say doesn't change anything. Must hurt you that Kapil always ends up behind Imran, Sobers, Hadlee and Botham

So you are countering actual tangible measures of someone having ended up with more wickets and more runs and more catches as being delusional while you talk about some vague judgement of Kapil ending up behind other allrounders great fantastic

 

[Khan12]

With some of the logic which people are putting forward leads me to the conclusion that Afridi is better than Kallis.

 

[Slog]

So you are countering actual tangible measures of someone having ended up with more wickets and more runs and more catches as being delusional while you talk about some vague judgement of Kapil ending up behind other allrounders great fantastic

It's not vague

Legends of the game who have played more than you and I hold that opinion.

Kapil often doesn't even come into the running

Kapil is better than Imran in the same universe where Inzamam is better than Sachin.

 

[blue_champion]

With some of the logic which people are putting forward leads me to the conclusion that Afridi is better than Kallis.

Hmm.....I don't think Afridi has more wickets and runs than Kallis in tests though

 

[blue_champion]

It's not vague

Legends of the game who have played more than you and I hold that opinion.

Kapil often doesn't even come into the running

Kapil is better than Imran in the same universe where Inzamam is better than Sachin.

Yes Imran was a great captain and motivator......at 40+,he got his way to a world cup victory that he wanted so bad as a validation, that his contemporary already achieved a decade ago by actually performing in all 3 facets and winning against a team that was next to unbeatable.

If it makes you feel any better as a man-manager and a mentor I will say it Imran was ahead of Kapil for sure

 

[Slog]

Yes Imran was a great captain and motivator......at 40+,he got his way to a world cup victory that he wanted so bad as a validation, that his contemporary already achieved a decade ago by actually performing in all 3 facets and winning against a team that was next to unbeatable.

If it makes you feel any better as a man-manager and a mentor I will say it Imran was ahead of Kapil for sure

So Inzamam is indeed better in your world. It all makes sense now

Since he won he World Cup in his first few years in cricket whereas it took Sachin 20+ years to finally win something?

 

[blue_champion]

So Inzamam is indeed better in your world. It all makes sense now

Since he won he World Cup in his first few years in cricket whereas it took Sachin 20+ years to finally win something?

Ok just as an FYI....since you keep calling Kapil a mediocre cricketer,initially I thought you had actual evidence to back your claims now I have realized that it is plain ignorance no issues...being ignorant is good at times...it is like a clean slate-Kapil won the world cup as a captain......I repeat Kapil won the world cup as a captain and a star player in his side.

As far as the Inzi analogy goes-Does Inzamam have more runs than Sachin in both formats? Because clearly Kapil does than Imran

Also wasn't the WC argument used against Sachin pre-2011 by Pak fans as to how Inzi was a great match winner despite flopping in every world cup since then?

So In Kapil's case stronger argument as he ended up with more runs,wickets,catches in both formats and a world cup 9 years before as well to boot.

 

[Slog]

Ok just as an FYI....since you keep calling Kapil a mediocre cricketer,initially I thought you had actual evidence to back your claims now I have realized that it is plain ignorance no issues...being ignorant is good at times...it is like a clean slate-Kapil won the world cup as a captain......I repeat Kapil won the world cup as a captain and a star player in his side.

As far as the Inzi analogy goes-Does Inzamam have more runs than Sachin in both formats? Because clearly Kapil does than Imran

Also wasn't the WC argument used against Sachin pre-2011 by Pak fans as to how Inzi was a great match winner despite flopping in every world cup since then?

So In Kapil's case stronger argument as he ended up with more runs,wickets,catches in both formats and a world cup 9 years before as well to boot.

There is no need for me to prove anymore. Enough evidence has been provided

You can look at the previous two pages where pretty much everyone agrees Imran is far superior to the level it's a no contest overall

 

[Mp812]

Tell me 1 neutral who rates Imran's knock that highly. Kapil's knock is always in the top knock world cup knocks of all time by neutrals.

That 175 knock saved India from bieng thrown out of the tournament which they eventually won defeating what was probably the best ODI team of that era. That knock was under pressure inddeed.

 

[Im Suds]

At their best Imran v Kapil was like Ali Foreman - gladiatorial !
Kapil had the edge as a ODI player, Imran better test player and leader.
Kapil was a naturally gifted cricketer- as a batsman pure box office. Nice guy off the field.
Immy had a heart of the lion - and he inspired Pakistani s to stand up. At his peak he bowled as quick as anyone & as a bat had a skill set of a top six batsmen.
Off the field he was arrogant/ narcissistic.

 

[Mamoon]

Wisden also did not include any of Tendulkar's knocks in top 100. What do you say about it?

One of the many reasons why Tendulkar did not end up as the greatest batsman of all time even though he had more than enough talent to do so.

When you dominate a bowler like Sir Richard Hadlee at the age of 16, you are no ordinary batting talent. However, Tendulkar did not possess the ruthless mentality.

If he had Kohli's or Ponting's brain, Tendulkar would have been the greatest batsmen to ever walk the earth by far.

 

[Mamoon]

At their best Imran v Kapil was like Ali Foreman - gladiatorial !
Kapil had the edge as a ODI player, Imran better test player and leader.
Kapil was a naturally gifted cricketer- as a batsman pure box office. Nice guy off the field.
Immy had a heart of the lion - and he inspired Pakistani s to stand up. At his peak he bowled as quick as anyone & as a bat had a skill set of a top six batsmen.
Off the field he was arrogant/ narcissistic.

Best post in the thread in my opinion. Sums it up really.

This thread has ran its course.

 

[Mamoon]

Yes but you will not call Inzamam's inning as one of the best test knocks ever played in test Cricket history. It will always be just a great knock played by a Pakistani batsman and will never find a spot even in the top 50 innings ever played.

Imran's inning was better because:
1. It was a world cup final.
2. England was a top team with a very good bowling attack.
3. He came to bat at 1/20.
4. He was not a specialist batsman but he promoted himself because his team needed him to step up and take the challenge.

It is still one of the finest Test innings by a Pakistani.

A random Test match is not going to get as much hype as a World Cup game, especially when India went on to win the World Cup.

Imran's innings was good but just because it was in the final doesn't mean that it was better than Kapil's, when you consider all things.

Otherwise, Clarke's 72 in the 2015 World Cup final is also better than Kapil's 175 and de Silva's 107* is better than Inzamam's 60 in the 92 semifinal, because it came in the final.

 

[street cricketer]

At their best Imran v Kapil was like Ali Foreman - gladiatorial !
Kapil had the edge as a ODI player, Imran better test player and leader.
Kapil was a naturally gifted cricketer- as a batsman pure box office. Nice guy off the field.
Immy had a heart of the lion - and he inspired Pakistani s to stand up. At his peak he bowled as quick as anyone & as a bat had a skill set of a top six batsmen.
Off the field he was arrogant/ narcissistic.

Best post in the thread.

We have Pakistanis and Indians fighting who haven't watched a single ball of either making outlandish remarks like Kapil was a mediocre cricketer, Imran cheated his way to his wickets, etc., and disparaging the two great cricketers. It only gets funnier when it's obvious that neither of the two groups are old enough to have watched the two. I have noticed that the older groups who have watched both have much respect for the two cricketers than the younger lot who follow through stats. I agree with [MENTION=131701]Mamoon[/MENTION]. The thread has run its course and we have just personal insults against the two great cricketers.

 

[Harsh Thakor]

One way of morally comparing the 2 is visualizing how Kapil Dev would have performed playing in the same side as Imran Khan's either with him or replacing him.Another would be Kapil Dev playing for England,Australia or West Indies.

I am convinced Kapil's bowling average and wicket haul would be better if he had the support Imran did or even Lillee or Marshall.At his best Kapil Dev championed the tracks on the sub -continent wit hauls of 9-83 v West Indies,8-85 and 7-56 v Pakistan.As a batsmen he was more flamboyant than Imran and could turn the course of a game more with the bat.Remember Kapil's swashbuckling 69 at Mumbai and 84 at Madras v Pakistan i 1979-80 that won tsets ,his 89 at Lords in 1982,77 at Lords in 1990 and 163 v Australia at Madras in 1986.Imran became a very god batsmen and could build an innings but not dominate as much as Kapil who would tear an attack to the shreds.At his best I feel Kapil was closer to Ian Botham than Imran as he would at his best create pandemomium with both bat and ball like at Lords in 1982 or against Pakistan at Madras in 1979-80.Statistically Imran is undoubtedly better and because of all-0round consistency more worthy of a place in a test side or all-time test xi. in a test match.In an O.D.I.I would still back Kapil because of his batting.If it came to pure talent or performance of an all-rounder at his best Kapil may match or even edge the great Imran Khan.Argubaly if he played for a powerful team or had Imran's support he may have been even 2md to only Sobers.Neverthless overall Kapil would overall rank below Sobers,Kallis,Miller,Imran/Botham,tentatively in that order and just ahead of Hadlee and Vinoo Mankad.Arguably as pure match-winners in their prime Miller and Botham were at the top but consistently Sobers as the king.Imran was the best match-winner as a fast bowling all-rounder.

Where Imran would win the race hands down with Kapil is his record as a skipper.Imran could make the top 10-12 cricketers,Kapil the top 25-30 .

 

[Romali_rotti]

One way of morally comparing the 2 is visualizing how Kapil Dev would have performed playing in the same side as Imran Khan's either with him or replacing him.Another would be Kapil Dev playing for England,Australia or West Indies.

I am convinced Kapil's bowling average and wicket haul would be better if he had the support Imran did or even Lillee or Marshall.At his best Kapil Dev championed the tracks on the sub -continent wit hauls of 9-83 v West Indies,8-85 and 7-56 v Pakistan.As a batsmen he was more flamboyant than Imran and could turn the course of a game more with the bat.Remember Kapil's swashbuckling 69 at Mumbai and 84 at Madras v Pakistan i 1979-80 that won tsets ,his 89 at Lords in 1982,77 at Lords in 1990 and 163 v Australia at Madras in 1986.Imran became a very god batsmen and could build an innings but not dominate as much as Kapil who would tear an attack to the shreds.At his best I feel Kapil was closer to Ian Botham than Imran as he would at his best create pandemomium with both bat and ball like at Lords in 1982 or against Pakistan at Madras in 1979-80.Statistically Imran is undoubtedly better and because of all-0round consistency more worthy of a place in a test side or all-time test xi. in a test match.In an O.D.I.I would still back Kapil because of his batting.If it came to pure talent or performance of an all-rounder at his best Kapil may match or even edge the great Imran Khan.Argubaly if he played for a powerful team or had Imran's support he may have been even 2md to only Sobers.Neverthless overall Kapil would overall rank below Sobers,Kallis,Miller,Imran/Botham,tentatively in that order and just ahead of Hadlee and Vinoo Mankad.Arguably as pure match-winners in their prime Miller and Botham were at the top but consistently Sobers as the king.Imran was the best match-winner as a fast bowling all-rounder.

Where Imran would win the race hands down with Kapil is his record as a skipper.Imran could make the top 10-12 cricketers,Kapil the top 25-30 .

Not trying to put Botham down, he was a great player but come on, DEV was the real deal vs the WI..... Matter of fact Dev's and Imran's overall record vs the WIs is very close, Imran who was supposedly meant to be so much better could only do slightly better than DEV. Botham in the meantime was a no show vs the WI, with the bat and ball hence Botham should not be brought into the equation. It all comes down to what you do vs the best, it does not matter how good you were vs the rest.....

 

[Slog]

Not trying to put Botham down, he was a great player but come on, DEV was the real deal vs the WI..... Matter of fact Dev's and Imran's overall record vs the WIs is very close, Imran who was supposedly meant to be so much better could only do slightly better than DEV. Botham in the meantime was a no show vs the WI, with the bat and ball hence Botham should not be brought into the equation. It all comes down to what you do vs the best, it does not matter how good you were vs the rest.....

So Wasim Raja is the greatest ever? He has a better record than most against the migty Windies

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

There is no way Kapil is tied with Imran in tests.

Imran >> Kapil (Tests - though both of them did well against the best teams of the era but overall Imran was FAR better)

Kapil > Imran (ODIs)

Overall...Imran >> Kapil

Kapil had all the ability to be the best AR of his generation but kinda feel he wasn't the smartest cookie.

Anyways, I don't really see a point in these debates to be honest.

 

[blue_champion]

There is no way Kapil is tied with Imran in tests.

Imran >> Kapil (Tests - though both of them did well against the best teams of the era but overall Imran was FAR better)

Kapil > Imran (ODIs)

Overall...Imran >> Kapil

Kapil had all the ability to be the best AR of his generation but kinda feel he wasn't the smartest cookie.

Anyways, I don't really see a point in these debates to be honest.

This is exactly what I don't agree with.....Add Captaincy and other mentorship skills to complete the package,Yes,Imran over Kapil no issues there, but your post correct me if I am wrong seems to suggest Imran was head and shoulders above Kapil overall and in tests based on your usage of >> signs.....that is exactly what I have a problem with.

Because that is not correct......How can Kapil end up as the highest wicket taker in tests if that was the case and play more impact innings?

There was a smug comment on here earlier, that people arguing over Kapil and Imran never watched them play....well that might be partly true for people calling Kapil a mediocre player.

Let me speak for myself....I have seen both play but unfortunately in their last phase..I started watching cricket with fully formed memories from 1991 onwards

Kapil still had some spark in him about 1991-1992 ....like some of his spells in the Australian tour that year,his 100 against South Africa against Donald and Co. etc in 1992.

Imran though way past his prime,was fighting it out and I could see some kind of aura he had the way he led the team....no 2 ways about it

Pre 1992 WC,everyone talked about Imran Kapil Botham and Hadlee in the same breath....slowly after 1992 WC win Imran for some reason became a larger than life persona....surprisingly more than say a Ranatunga,Alan Border or even Kapil Dev who won the world cup against greater odds.....slowly such an aura was created that for some reason it pushed him into a different stratosphere.

While on the other hand.....Kapil had a failed coaching stint.....Then the Manoj Prabhakar allegations happened......followed by his emotional meltdown on national television which diminished his aura a great deal for a whole generation who did not even watch him play.

So eventually we get this watered down vision by some Indian fans who have never watched both play at all ,conclude that Imran is leagues ahead of Kapil especially when they hear the Pakistani side of the argument ....Yes,I will admit right now as a total package which includes intangible skills like mentorship and man-management Imran is ahead,but the gulf is not as huge as people here seem to believe.

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

This is exactly what I don't agree with.....Add Captaincy and other mentorship skills to complete the package,Yes,Imran over Kapil no issues there, but your post correct me if I am wrong seems to suggest Imran was head and shoulders above Kapil overall and in tests based on your usage of >> signs.....that is exactly what I have a problem with.

Because that is not correct......How can Kapil end up as the highest wicket taker in tests if that was the case and play more impact innings?

There was a smug comment on here earlier, that people arguing over Kapil and Imran never watched them play....well that might be partly true for people calling Kapil a mediocre player.

Let me speak for myself....I have seen both play but unfortunately in their last phase..I started watching cricket with fully formed memories from 1991 onwards

Kapil still had some spark in him about 1991-1992 ....like some of his spells in the Australian tour that year,his 100 against South Africa against Donald and Co. etc in 1992.

Imran though way past his prime,was fighting it out and I could see some kind of aura he had the way he led the team....no 2 ways about it

Pre 1992 WC,everyone talked about Imran Kapil Botham and Hadlee in the same breath....slowly after 1992 WC win Imran for some reason became a larger than life persona....surprisingly more than say a Ranatunga,Alan Border or even Kapil Dev who won the world cup against greater odds.....slowly such an aura was created that for some reason it pushed him into a different stratosphere.

While on the other hand.....Kapil had a failed coaching stint.....Then the Manoj Prabhakar allegations happened......followed by his emotional meltdown on national television which diminished his aura a great deal for a whole generation who did not even watch him play.

So eventually we get this watered down vision by some Indian fans who have never watched both play at all ,conclude that Imran is leagues ahead of Kapil especially when they hear the Pakistani side of the argument ....Yes,I will admit right now as a total package which includes intangible skills like mentorship and man-management Imran is ahead,but the gulf is not as huge as people here seem to believe.

Nah....its got nothing to do with Pakistan fans say.

Didn't see any neutral opinions of experts or fans putting Kapil ahead. Of course, Kapil was part of Fab 4 ARs in 80s but when people compare players separately, they will rate each one based on how good they were.

Kapil's overall numbers are hardly comparable to Imran's (in tests). Plus its not like his peak was something insanely better than Imran's (its not even comparable).

Imran averages that of ATG and his peak numbers are something else. Plus he lost 3 years of his peak.

Leave aside captaincy and all that factors...still Imran comfortably beats Kapil hands down without a question.

Kapil averages 29 with the ball (63 SR) and 31 with the bat.
Imran averages 22 with the ball (53 SR) and 37 with the bat.

Yes, Kapil is MUCH better than his stats but Imran's numbers are simply level above. Imran took 362 wickets so that's no sample set.

How is this even a debate in tests?

 

[blue_champion]

Nah....its got nothing to do with Pakistan fans say.

Didn't see any neutral opinions of experts or fans putting Kapil ahead. Of course, Kapil was part of Fab 4 ARs in 80s but when people compare players separately, they will rate each one based on how good they were.

Kapil's overall numbers are hardly comparable to Imran's (in tests). Plus its not like his peak was something insanely better than Imran's (its not even comparable).

Imran averages that of ATG and his peak numbers are something else. Plus he lost 3 years of his peak.

Leave aside captaincy and all that factors...still Imran comfortably beats Kapil hands down without a question.

Kapil averages 29 with the ball (63 SR) and 31 with the bat.
Imran averages 22 with the ball (53 SR) and 37 with the bat.

Yes, Kapil is MUCH better than his stats but Imran's numbers are simply level above. Imran took 362 wickets so that's no sample set.

How is this even a debate in tests?

Dude stop looking at just stats....this is what happens when you don't watch cricket.

Kapil at times was the only fast bowler in his side and this was the case till Manoj Prabhakar came along.....so there were not many options to keep opposition in check.

You look at averages etc etc. but conveniently ignore the fact he took a bucket loads of wickets to end up as the highest wicket taker of all time when his career ended.

As a batsmen not only did he play some of the most impactful innings against quality bowling....his test S/R and the runs scored were way way ahead of it's time.......bowlers literally feared him when he was in song....No expert will say apples to apples Imran was a better batsman than Kapil.

Bowling Imran might have held the edge but Kapil ended up with I repeat bucket loads of wickets.

Yeah Yeah I know what experts you are getting the info from.

There is nothing much of a debate I can have with you when your point of arguments are...but but no expert(probably mostly from the posts here) rates Kapil etc.

 

[anoop]

Wisden also did not include any of Tendulkar's knocks in top 100. What do you say about it?

This is about Odi. Wisden included sachin's 4 knocks in odi's.

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

Dude stop looking at just stats....this is what happens when you don't watch cricket.

Kapil at times was the only fast bowler in his side and this was the case till Manoj Prabhakar came along.....so there were not many options to keep opposition in check.

You look at averages etc etc. but conveniently ignore the fact he took a bucket loads of wickets to end up as the highest wicket taker of all time when his career ended.

As a batsmen not only did he play some of the most impactful innings against quality bowling....his test S/R and the runs scored were way way ahead of it's time.......bowlers literally feared him when he was in song....No expert will say apples to apples Imran was a better batsman than Kapil.

Bowling Imran might have held the edge but Kapil ended up with I repeat bucket loads of wickets.

Yeah Yeah I know what experts you are getting the info from.

There is nothing much of a debate I can have with you when your point of arguments are...but but no expert(probably mostly from the posts here) rates Kapil etc.

Getting a touch sensitive are we?

I know Kapil had it MUCH HARDER than Imran in terms of what he had to go through.

Inspite of that, he was able to average 26 in India, 23 in Aus and 24 in WI....but his average crashed in England (swing bowlers' paradise) and other places.

Hadlee had to carry his team's bowling too and still has some incredible balanced records. I am not disagreeing that its been hard for Kapil but somehow his bad records are brushed aside while he has been able to have good records in several place INSPITE of all the said hardships.

If you noticed Kapil has a touch inferior stats (averages) than Imran in ODIs but its very very clear that he was a better player in ODIs due to his impact and dynamism.

I am all about larger picture and looking beyond stats but I have seen the most ridiculous arguments (in the past) when it comes to Kapil vs Imran sadly.

But the gap in tests is too huge.

Anyways, don't worry about me.

Try to convince others. I wish you all the best.

 

[Im Suds]

Best post in the thread in my opinion. Sums it up really.

This thread has ran its course.

Cheers mamoon bhai - to be honest your posts on this subject have been top notch.
Back to your analytical best

 

[Im Suds]

Best post in the thread.

We have Pakistanis and Indians fighting who haven't watched a single ball of either making outlandish remarks like Kapil was a mediocre cricketer, Imran cheated his way to his wickets, etc., and disparaging the two great cricketers. It only gets funnier when it's obvious that neither of the two groups are old enough to have watched the two. I have noticed that the older groups who have watched both have much respect for the two cricketers than the younger lot who follow through stats. I agree with [MENTION=131701]Mamoon[/MENTION]. The thread has run its course and we have just personal insults against the two great cricketers.

Absolutely right.
Banter s one thing but to disparage each other's legends because of petty nationalism should offend anyone whose knows anything about these great players.
We need to create a space where we can reflect on how brilliant these cricketers were without it turning into a competition all the time.
Mamoon refers to Kapil Dev as Pa jee - this is correct. He s earned that's respect and affection