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Imran Khan vs MS Dhoni vs Ricky Ponting - Who is the better leader?

You have to take in the quality of opposition faced, in IK's time, Windes were no1, all the others were strong too, but he managed to maintain Pak as no2 for ten years and even one later on and even won the lWC, in Dohnis time most of the teams have been subpar, especially after the Aussie greats retired, hence for me IK is the best captain and cricketer of the three
 
chickenkarhai said:
Yes of course because after all cricket is played on computers.And as far as stats are concerned shoaib malik is a better captain than dhoni.
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Ha Ha.... i dont remember he winning any world cup or test Trophy..
 
Imran is very overrated. his total achievement as a captain is winning the worldcup and drawing a test series in WI. He was very very lucky to win that 92 worldcup. even the test match they won against WI team (with no richards and some of the bowling stars) is nothing great.

Dhoni has already achieved more than Imran. Still I dont consider Dhoni a great captain.

Ponting has won a lot of games but he had great team.

overall I would give it to Ponting.
 
chickenkarhai said:
Okay then no use in debating further the record says it all Ponting>Every captain to have played the game.And while you think about that Kallis>Sachin as a batsman because he has a better record than sachin.I guess stats and records really are everything?
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No, he doesn't.

Record isn't everything.. agreed. But you have to give a solid argument about what puts Imran way ahead of the pack.
Is it his away record as captain ?? NO
The number of major tournaments he won ?? NO
Did he get you to no.1 ranking in Tests or ODIs at any point ?? NO

Pakistani kaum's blind love for him seems like the only apt answer judging by the responses so far.
 
Electron said:
No, he doesn't.

Record isn't everything.. agreed. But you have to give a solid argument about what puts Imran way ahead of the pack.
Is it his away record as captain ?? NO
The number of major tournaments he won ?? NO
Did he get you to no.1 ranking in Tests or ODIs at any point ?? NO

Pakistani kaum's blind love for him seems like the only apt answer judging by the responses so far.
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Go through the thread i have already listed my reason as to why i rate imran the highest then ponting and then dhoni.I do not think anyone who isn't an indian would rate dhoni more than imran or ponting.
 
Kiwi said:
Plenty of not outs to boost average, but he is no doubt a great finisher and probably the greatest of all time.
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finishing not out is the job and strength of a finisher.Its not like he play slow to remain not out
 
chickenkarhai said:
Go through the thread i have already listed my reason as to why i rate imran the highest then ponting and then dhoni.I do not think anyone who isn't an indian would rate dhoni more than imran or ponting.
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I find all the reasons given so far to be more zazbaati :'( than anything substantial.
Anyways.. since the thread is about :ik himself, I'll give up trying.
 
Haroon786 said:
You have to take in the quality of opposition faced, in IK's time, Windes were no1, all the others were strong too, but he managed to maintain Pak as no2 for ten years and even one later on and even won the lWC, in Dohnis time most of the teams have been subpar, especially after the Aussie greats retired, hence for me IK is the best captain and cricketer of the three
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I dont think thats true but i get ur point.... thats the reason Imran Khan is among world greatest leaders in sport..


On the point about Dhonis time...well...
1) In IKs time England was not as strong as they are now...
2)SA was not as strong as they are now... SA werent in the International circuit for a long time...
3)Sri Lankas were minnows

Its a circle... few years from now ... we might see Bang on top and SA in a same situation as ZIM... we dont know...you cant put that in perspective here..
 
Kiwi said:
IK, Ponting then Dhoni.
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Kiwi said:
Test cricket and 2 world cups > 1 world cup (dodgy at that).
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You really are a Troll and set to be one of the highest order.

T20 WC, WC, Test Championship, Champion's trophy
Other misc T20 titles.

The title is which is a better LEADER.
A captain which has marshalled the resources best ought to come out on top. Extending it, any team which has depleted resources or an unbalanced team and yet achieved in the arena should get the credit.



Reverselap said:
You're actually Indian? :yk
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I think he is adopted. And he knows that, hence the claims we gen see in his posts.
 
Robbie said:
I dont think thats true but i get ur point.... thats the reason Imran Khan is among world greatest leaders in sport..


On the point about Dhonis time...well...
1) In IKs time England was not as strong as they are now...
2)SA was not as strong as they are now... SA werent in the International circuit for a long time...
3)Sri Lankas were minnows

Its a circle... few years from now ... we might see Bang on top and SA in a same situation as ZIM... we dont know...you cant put that in perspective here..
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You could pretty much the same for teams now... 1 great team, 1 decent and the rest.
 
Kiwi said:
I think we'd agree averaging 50+ opening or 3 is a lot different?
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Check Out the list of Batsman having 45+ avg in ODIs.... More than 95% are top order batsmen... not no 6 or No 7.....

Now enough about Dhoni....
Imran Vs Ponting Now...
 
Robbie,


Since you are the statsguru for this thread;


Can you put up Ponting's captaincy record with Mgrath & Warne and after Mcgrath & Warne, this will settle the Ponting debate I feel...
 
Electron said:
I find all the reasons given so far to be more zazbaati :'( than anything substantial.
Anyways.. since the thread is about :ik himself, I'll give up trying.
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Okay mate you can think and do whatever you want i was just expressing my opinion.
 
Saurav said:
yes but they also they have more overs to play with,so it evens out a bit imo
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Not really, its much easier scoring runs down the order than it is opening or coming in at 3. There is usually more pressure towards the back end of the innings, but yeah.
 
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Ponting was a seriously poor captain, he may have lead a great Aussie team through the good times, however as soon as the star players started to dissapear he was found wanting when it came to captaincy stakes!
 
Robbie said:
I dont think thats true but i get ur point.... thats the reason Imran Khan is among world greatest leaders in sport..


On the point about Dhonis time...well...
1) In IKs time England was not as strong as they are now...
2)SA was not as strong as they are now... SA werent in the International circuit for a long time...
3)Sri Lankas were minnows

Its a circle... few years from now ... we might see Bang on top and SA in a same situation as ZIM... we dont know...you cant put that in perspective here..
Click to expand...

I dont think it is viable to compare across different eras, as it becomes controversial,one further fact, IK lost only 8 matches in his 48 test tenure, whereas Dhoni lost on the trot away, with another whitewash beckoning at SA in the winter.
 
Romali_rotti said:
Robbie,


Since you are the statsguru for this thread;


Can you put up Ponting's captaincy record with Mgrath & Warne and after Mcgrath & Warne, this will settle the Ponting debate I feel...
Click to expand...

I dont think that would be fair to Ponting.... Cause it was during his tenure that Warne and Mcgrath or Lee or Hayden achieved what they have achieved.....

It will be as absurd as making a judgement on Clarke's Captaincy Now!!!..
 
To those that are saying IK didn't win much silerware under his tenure are wrong, at the time there was no CT or T20 WC but he managed to get the WC and even grapse the no.1 ranking from the Windies in 1988, if im not mistake.
 
Romali_rotti said:
Robbie,


Since you are the statsguru for this thread;


Can you put up Ponting's captaincy record with Mgrath & Warne and after Mcgrath & Warne, this will settle the Ponting debate I feel...
Click to expand...

Code: 
Tests
Player    Mat Won Lss Drw Tie W/L  %W    %L
Dhoni     47  24  12  11  0  2.00 51.06 25.53
Ponting   77  48  16  13  0  3.00 62.33 20.77
Ponting*  28  14   9   5  0  1.56 50.00 32.14

*Ponting without McGrath, Warne and Hayden.

Still doesn't stack up too badly against Dhoni. Of course we're not taking Tendulkar, Dravid, Laxman, Sehwag etc from Dhoni's stats.

Of course Australia generally played better teams.
 
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Kiwi said:
Not really, its much easier scoring runs down the order than it is opening or coming in at 3. There is usually more pressure towards the back end of the innings, but yeah.
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How can players batting at 6/7 when they have lesser bowls to play with.Also they have to slog most often.Its obviously to average high when you have more balls to play with
 
Put it this way, which one would you want to captain a world X1?
 
Convict said:
Code: 
Tests
Player    Mat Won Lss Drw Tie W/L  %W    %L
Dhoni     47  24  12  11  0  2.00 51.06 25.53
Ponting   77  48  16  13  0  3.00 62.33 20.77
Ponting*  28  14   9   5  0  1.56 50.00 32.14

*Ponting without McGrath, Warne and Hayden.

Still doesn't stack up too badly against Dhoni. Of course we're not taking Tendulkar, Dravid, Laxman, Sehwag etc from Dhoni's stats.

Of course Australia generally played better teams.
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Thats Fan*******tastic...
... I didnt know that... thanks for the stats man... thats called constructive input....
 
Why are people under the notion that Imran had a brilliant team. ?
 
IK is so overrated as a captain 1992 world cup win many people attribute to him but I attribute it to more on Javed, Wasim and Inzi.

IK had the best team in 1987 and him being in peak form but he failed, He never won an odi against WI in WI.

Ponting being best player on one of greatest team and him leading from the front in my book make him the best captain. Ponting always played to win every match he played did not matter if he was leading 4-0 in a 5 test series, that is trait I like in a captain.

Dhoni is also one of the most overrated timid captains I have seen and unlike Imran and Ponting he never was the best player on any of his teams.

His overseas test performances are awful both as a captain and player.To be a great captain in my book you should lead from front on your performances do not give me that world cup finals.

Even when he had chances to win test matches he is sort of a captain who always chooses safety first then win next attitude and that is not a mark of a good captain forget about being great.

The one thing I liked about IK/Ponting was they were always willing to lead from the front by performing.
 
Convict said:
Code: 
Tests
Player    Mat Won Lss Drw Tie W/L  %W    %L
Dhoni     47  24  12  11  0  2.00 51.06 25.53
Ponting   77  48  16  13  0  3.00 62.33 20.77
Ponting*  28  14   9   5  0  1.56 50.00 32.14

*Ponting without McGrath, Warne and Hayden.

Still doesn't stack up too badly against Dhoni. Of course we're not taking Tendulkar, Dravid, Laxman, Sehwag etc from Dhoni's stats.

Of course Australia generally played better teams.
Click to expand...

But Ponting had Gilly, Langer, Lee, etc yeah ? So that evens out Dhoni having Dravid, Laxman & Sehwag etc, during tours of SA & AUS Dravid & Sehwag was non existent so that negates that advantage when playing against quality sides.. What I see here is on a more level playing field Dhoni > Ponting as I expected...
 
Romali_rotti said:
But Ponting had Gilly, Langer, Lee, etc yeah ? So that evens out Dhoni having Dravid, Laxman & Sehwag etc, during tours of SA & AUS Dravid & Sehwag was non existent so that negates that advantage when playing against quality sides.. What I see here is on a more level playing field Dhoni > Ponting as I expected...
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Lee wasn't that great in tests and I think Langer retired in 2007 with Mcgrath.
 
Kiwi said:
Not really, its much easier scoring runs down the order than it is opening or coming in at 3. There is usually more pressure towards the back end of the innings, but yeah.
Click to expand...

Neither it's easier nor tougher, it's just different.. in ODIs new ball does not move around that much.
 
testcricketisbest said:
IK is so overrated as a captain 1992 world cup win many people attribute to him but I attribute it to more on Javed, Wasim and Inzi.

IK had the best team in 1987 and him being in peak form but he failed, He never won an odi against WI in WI.

Ponting being best player on one of greatest team and him leading from the front in my book make him the best captain. Ponting always played to win every match he played did not matter if he was leading 4-0 in a 5 test series, that is trait I like in a captain.

Dhoni is also one of the most overrated timid captains I have seen and unlike Imran and Ponting he never was the best player on any of his teams.

His overseas test performances are awful both as a captain and player.To be a great captain in my book you should lead from front on your performances do not give me that world cup finals.

Even when he had chances to win test matches he is sort of a captain who always chooses safety first then win next attitude and that is not a mark of a good captain forget about being great.

The one thing I liked about IK/Ponting was they were always willing to lead from the front by performing.
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Here we are not talking about being a better player...If it had been then the thread would be a troll... and Dhoni would be a misfit among the two greats...

Both Imran and Dhoni used there resources to the fullest.... And Noone should question anyone's captaincy issues unless they have something other than whims etc...
Tell us ur views and ur favourite rather than putting down the other candidate..
 
Haroon786 said:
Put it this way, which one would you want to captain a world X1?
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Not a fair put, to be included in world XI, you have to be included as a player first, not directly as captain.. IK would come into world XI, but Dhoni can't as he isn't in the same class as a Test player.

We are talking about captaincy here.. Stephen Fleming ?
 
Kiwi said:
Lee wasn't that great in tests and I think Langer retired in 2007 with Mcgrath.
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Against India in 2007, he was the MOS, with 24 wickets in 4 matches, he was the only one who troubled Tendulkar somewhat, o/w Tendulkar would have scored 2 double hundreds..
 
vicky_iisc said:
Against India in 2007, he was the MOS, with 24 wickets in 4 matches, he was the only one who troubled Tendulkar somewhat, o/w Tendulkar would have scored 2 double hundreds..
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Average excessive of 30, he was a gun bowler in ODI's but he just wasn't as effective in Tests.
 
vicky_iisc said:
Not a fair put, to be included in world XI, you have to be included as a player first, not directly as captain.. IK would come into world XI, but Dhoni can't as he isn't in the same class as a Test player.

We are talking about captaincy here.. Stephen Fleming ?
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No WAY!!!!..I am Not bringing him into the discussion...!!!
 
Kiwi said:
Most of which would have been after 2007 when all three retired.
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I don't know when Langer retired but read my posts above, even if Langer was not there Ponting had Hussey... Ponting without M&W indicates Dhoni has a better captaincy record end of the day...Like my earlier posts reads; even Afridi & Misbah would have won series after series with that invincible side Ponting had once........
 
Romali_rotti said:
But Ponting had Gilly, Langer, Lee, etc yeah ? So that evens out Dhoni having Dravid, Laxman & Sehwag etc, during tours of SA & AUS Dravid & Sehwag was non existent so that negates that advantage when playing against quality sides.. What I see here is on a more level playing field Dhoni > Ponting as I expected...
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But Gilly, Langer and Lee retired before/after Hayden.

So far the last 28 tests he had Hughes, Johnson, Hilfenhaus, Hauritz, Doherty, Smith, Watto etc

But at least he had Hussey I guess.

And by the logic of Dravid and Sehwag being negated not counting then we can't count Clarke for Ponting either.
 
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Kiwi said:
Average excessive of 30, he was a gun bowler in ODI's but he just wasn't as effective in Tests.
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May be, but against India in 2007, he was the reason Australia won 2-1.. and Hayden being the other.. (3 hundreds), rest of the bowling was average.

Australia toured India in 2004-05 with Warne, McGrath, Gillespie, Kasprowicz, and won 2-1, since then they haven't won a single Test in India .. why ? Poor bowling attacks..

You told about 4-0 drubbing of Dhoni, in Australia.. FYI, Ponting has never won a single Test in India..

what do you have to say for that ?
 
vicky_iisc said:
May be, but against India in 2007, he was the reason Australia won 2-1.. and Hayden being the other.. (3 hundreds), rest of the bowling was average.

Australia toured India in 2004-05 with Warne, McGrath, Gillespie, Kasprowicz, and won 2-1, since then they haven't won a single Test in India .. why ? Poor bowling attacks..

FYI, Ponting has never won a single Test in India as captain. what do you have to say for that ?
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It happens, one poor record shouldn't take away from the dozens of unrivaled ones.
 
Convict said:
But Gilly, Langer and Lee retired before/after Hayden.

So far the last 28 tests he had Hughes, Johnson, Hilfenhaus, Hauritz, Doherty, Smith, Watto etc

But at least he had Hussey I guess.

And by the logic of Dravid and Sehwag being negated not counting then we can't count Clarke for Ponting either.
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Last I checked Clarke's record vs India and rest of the world is quite good...
 
Kiwi said:
Because Ponting has a fairly successful record every where else..
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What is wrong with Dhoni's record till now apart from 8-0 ...

He drew against SA (home and away), won in NZ, won in WI.. won everything at home till Eng .. what else ?
 
My Dad recently did a 3 hrs presentation on management vs leadership.Using gangly vs dhoni as example. dhoni is a good manager and knows how to win.Imran is the leader.So is ganguly.Ponting is probably the best he has both qualities.
 
Robbie said:
Whatt????.... Graeme Smith??... Inzi..???... Ganguly...???...Ponting..?? Dhoni...?? Ranatunga...????..
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Fleming was a much better captain.

Got great results out of a weak team.
 
vicky_iisc said:
What is wrong with Dhoni's record till now apart from 8-0 ...

He drew against SA (home and away), won in NZ, won in WI.. won everything at home till Eng .. what else ?
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It's not just the results it's the way they lost, they were completely listless, he couldn't inspire his team to even eek out a draw.
 
Robbie said:
Hey!!!!.. Ian Chappell rates Mahela's Captaincy as good as anyone there has been..

Lets continue with our discussion shall we...?
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Where ? All time ?? Currently Mahela is one of the better captains around.. if he decides to lead.
 
vicky_iisc said:
What is wrong with Dhoni's record till now apart from 8-0 ...

He drew against SA (home and away), won in NZ, won in WI.. won everything at home till Eng .. what else ?
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Even Ponting beat SA away from home without Warne, McGrath, Gillespie, Langer, Hayden, Gilchrist and Lee.
 
Kiwi said:
It's not just the results it's the way they lost, they were completely listless, he couldn't inspire his team to even eek out a draw.
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Australia under Ponting in India drew 2 matches out of 6, and lost 4..
Australia under Clarke lost all 4..
 
Convict said:
Even Ponting beat SA away from home without Warne, McGrath, Gillespie, Langer, Hayden, Gilchrist and Lee.
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For an Indian team to go and win a Test in SA is much more difficult than an Australian team to go there and win.. conditions are very different from Indian context.

Let's say Aus winning in Indian conditions will be something commendable.. that's why 2001 and 2004 Aus teams I respect, as they did well under alien conditions.
 
Convict said:
Look at the batting lineup Clarke has got though.
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Dhoni hasn't got all stars either.. by 2011, Lax, Tendulkar and Dravid, all were nearing retirement and their reflexes were getting slow.. Sehwag and Gambhir are fighting for place in the side and have even been replaced.

In 2003/2007, the same batting line up performed much better in Australia..

Also Dhoni had star bowlers like Ishant Sharma, RP singh and Vinay Kumar..
 
vicky_iisc said:
Inzy as captain ??? ha ha ha..

Fleming was better captain than all the names you mentioned here..
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Whatt??? ... Inzi achieved far more than Fleming... for ex Beating India in India.. in tests as well as in ODIs...
 
Convict said:
You're the one discounting Sehwag and Dravid because they played badly in the 4-0 Australian tour.
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Ok, Sehwag has been good in Aus I have checked his stats but Dravid has been consistently bad in Aus barring one series and he was always horrible in SA along with Sehwag.. Clarke & Hussey's contribution to Ponting is a lot better than the mentioned above Indian players... I go back to what I have been saying, Ponting the captain without M&W is not as good as Dhoni...
 
vicky_iisc said:
Dhoni hasn't got all stars either.. by 2011, Lax, Tendulkar and Dravid, all were nearing retirement and their reflexes were getting slow.. Sehwag and Gambhir are fighting for place in the side and have even been replaced.

In 2003/2007, the same batting line up performed much better in Australia..

Also Dhoni had star bowlers like Ishant Sharma, RP singh and Vinay Kumar..
Click to expand...

Well for some reason we're only counting tests were Ponting didn't have any decent players- but I guess that puts him and Dhoni on level ground.

Robbie said:
Whatt??? ... Inzi achieved far more than Fleming... for ex Beating India in India.. in tests as well as in ODIs...
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That's because Fleming captained New Zealand.

Did a brilliant job with what he had though.
 
Romali_rotti said:
Ok, Sehwag has been good in Aus I have checked his stats but Dravid has been consistently bad in Aus barring one series and he was always horrible in SA along with Sehwag.. Clarke & Hussey's contribution to Ponting is a lot better than the mentioned above Indian players... I go back to what I have been saying, Ponting the captian without M&W is not as good as Dhoni...
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Dravid was brilliant in the 4-0 England series however.
 
Its been ages since Fleming retired... so i think people here have forgot.. how utterly boring and uninspiring captain he was... I remember a match in which he had no slips in the first hour During AUS tour in Sydney cause wickets were flat... and AUS made 350+ on 1st day... Moreover Shane Bond was bowling in Full flow... After the day ended ... Tony said that was the worst piece of field placements he ever saw...
 
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