Imran Khan vs MS Dhoni vs Ricky Ponting - Who is the better leader?

[Itachi]

IK is over rated. has worst records overseas even with 0-8 combined.

Leader doesn't need to be a best player. He needs to be a best manager. IK even with dream team struggled in the world cup.

Dhoni. with less quality resource, has achieved more.

I would rate Afridi > Dhoni > ponting > misbah > IK.

(As a captain)

 

[vicky_iisc]

Ohh!! My Bad... Drew the series .... 1-1.. Thanks for correcting..
Anyways... Fleming...no..

He also lost the series to India at home.. 2-1..

Fleming won against India at home 2-0 and no NZ side has been successful in India ever since India played serious cricket.

 

[Convict]

So was clark in ENG 2009 avging 64...

I'm not discounting that loss to England. Unlike some who want to discount the 8-0

Good captains don't get whitewashed in long series.

 

[Varun]

Ponting is the oddball here.

 

[vicky_iisc]

I'm not discounting that loss to England. Unlike some who want to discount the 8-0

Good captains don't get whitewashed in long series.

What about Ponting in India.. 7 matches captained and lost 5 and drawn 2.. a 2-0 whitewash also.. ?

 

[Convict]

What about Ponting in India.. 7 matches captained and lost 5 and drawn 2.. a 2-0 whitewash also.. ?

Has Dhoni even managed to draw a match in England or Australia?

 

[Aman]

Has Dhoni even managed to draw a match in England or Australia?

It's not that either the way they went down was abysmal. Would a Ponting led side go down the way Dhonis did in England and Australia?

 

[Convict]

It's not that either the way they went down was abysmal. Would a Ponting led side go down the way Dhonis did in England and Australia?

Yeah.
The WACA match was just bad.

 

[vicky_iisc]

Has Dhoni even managed to draw a match in England or Australia?

So drawing is what separates losers from great captains ?

 

[vicky_iisc]

Also do you think if Ponting had captained the current Aus side to India, would the result have been different from 4-0 ?

 

[Aman]

Also do you think if Ponting had captained the current Aus side to India, would the result have been different from 4-0 ?

Probably not but they would have at least put up a fight.

 

[Convict]

So drawing is what separates losers from great captains ?

Drawing at least shows an ability to fight it out.
India (like Australia this year) just rolled over.

Also do you think if Ponting had captained the current Aus side to India, would the result have been different from 4-0 ?

Nope. But this Australian team is pathetic. The Indian 8-0 team started the year at number 1 in the world.

 

[vicky_iisc]

Drawing at least shows an ability to fight it out.
India (like Australia this year) just rolled over.



Nope. But this Australian team is pathetic. The Indian 8-0 team started the year at number 1 in the world.

Rankings aside, India had started its decline much earlier with all the stars out of form/age..

 

[vicky_iisc]

Probably not but they would have at least put up a fight.

Huh... they lost 9 out of 11 last Tests in India, 7 of which were captained by Ponting, and you say they would have put up a fight this time around only with change in captaincy..

 

[Convict]

Rankings aside, India had started its decline much earlier with all the stars out of form/age..

Perhaps so.

All I was pointing out was that for some reason people decided that only Ponting's captaincy record after McGrath, Warne, Hayden, Langer, Gilchrist, Lee retired should count.

That's fair enough but if that happens we should also not that Dhoni did captain some strong teams as well.

 

[vicky_iisc]

Perhaps so.

All I was pointing out was that for some reason people decided that only Ponting's captaincy record after McGrath, Warne, Hayden, Langer, Gilchrist, Lee retired should count.

That's fair enough but if that happens we should also not that Dhoni did captain some strong teams as well.

Dhoni isn't a great Test captain, IMO.. but Ponting isn't either. To me, it's Mark Taylor or Stephen Fleming.

 

[Aman]

Huh... they lost 9 out of 11 last Tests in India, 7 of which were captained by Ponting, and you say they would have put up a fight this time around only with change in captaincy..

If I remember correctly in a series they lost 2-0, it was fairly close and could have gone either way. I remember VVS playing a gem with Ishant to see India home when Australia had it all but wrapped up.

 

[Aman]

Huh... they lost 9 out of 11 last Tests in India, 7 of which were captained by Ponting, and you say they would have put up a fight this time around only with change in captaincy..

Can Dhoni take a team to Australia or England and expect 1 draw?

 

[vicky_iisc]

Can Dhoni take a team to Australia or England and expect 1 draw?

Yes.. India in 2007-08 drew 1 and won 1 Test, and I am sure result would have been same if Dhoni captained instead of Kumble there.. Another example, in Eng in 2007 India won 1-0..

If you talk of expecting, 8-0 was a surprise, as India were expected to win.. though they didn't realize they were not good enough by then.

It's just a matter of relatively good players in your team.. unless you talk of Fleming who made NZ punch above their weight.

 

[vicky_iisc]

If I remember correctly in a series they lost 2-0, it was fairly close and could have gone either way. I remember VVS playing a gem with Ishant to see India home when Australia had it all but wrapped up.

Only the first match was competitive..

what happened in second match, India rolled them over with a certain Indian batsman you have a disliking to, making a double hundred to win the match..

 

[Convict]

Yes.. India in 2007-08 drew 1 and won 1 Test, and I am sure result would have been same if Dhoni captained instead of Kumble there.. Another example, in Eng in 2007 India won 1-0..

If you talk of expecting, 8-0 was a surprise, as India were expected to win.. though they didn't realize they were not good enough by then.

It's just a matter of relatively good players in your team.. unless you talk of Fleming who made NZ punch above their weight.

So can I claim that Australia would have still won in 2004 if Ponting were fit?

 

[Aman]

Only the first match was competitive..

what happened in second match, India rolled them over with a certain Indian batsman you have a disliking to, making a double hundred to win the match..

I don't dislike Tendulkar, I think he's great but I think he's grossly over rated by his fans.

 

[vicky_iisc]

So can I claim that Australia would have still won in 2004 if Ponting were fit?

Yes, sure.. though it would have meant Marto out of the side ? Chennai Test was saved for you by him..

Anyway, I don't think Ponting's absence was the reason Aus won (that would be an insulting comment), just highlighting how stats can make things look :

Ponting has NEVER captained in a victory in India (and perhaps only won 1 or 2 matches as player).

It doesn't mean Ponting was a bad captain though.

 

[Gunther]

Leave aside Dhoni, give me a fully fit Zaheer(2006-2011), Kumble and Harbhajan and I could captain India to victories in the sub continent. In England, Australia the Indian bowling unit is not very effective and this kind of shows him up too. He has had some mighty results in limited overs cricket but I would attribute this to the IPL which has given quality exposure to young Indian cricketers and now there is a sufficient depth atleast in ODIs and T20s.

 

[Aman]

Leave aside Dhoni, give me a fully fit Zaheer(2006-2011), Kumble and Harbhajan and I could captain India to victories in the sub continent. In England, Australia the Indian bowling unit is not very effective and this kind of shows him up too. He has had some mighty results in limited overs cricket but I would attribute this to the IPL which has given quality exposure to young Indian cricketers and now there is a sufficient depth atleast in ODIs and T20s.

Good assessment.

 

[vicky_iisc]

I don't dislike Tendulkar, I think he's great but I think he's grossly over rated by his fans.

I think no sensible fan of Tendulkar overrates him.. why do you feel he is overrated ?

 

[vicky_iisc]

Leave aside Dhoni, give me a fully fit Zaheer(2006-2011), Kumble and Harbhajan and I could captain India to victories in the sub continent. In England, Australia the Indian bowling unit is not very effective and this kind of shows him up too. He has had some mighty results in limited overs cricket but I would attribute this to the IPL which has given quality exposure to young Indian cricketers and now there is a sufficient depth atleast in ODIs and T20s.

Not sure how much role a captain plays with good bowlers around..

In ODIs however, I attribute Dhoni a great deal for WC and CT victories.. because of his captaincy.

 

[ViciousMachine]

IK is over rated. has worst records overseas even with 0-8 combined.

Leader doesn't need to be a best player. He needs to be a best manager. IK even with dream team struggled in the world cup.

Dhoni. with less quality resource, has achieved more.

I would rate Afridi > Dhoni > ponting > misbah > IK.

(As a captain)

So many good points in these posts, really a great debate, but for me (and I am obviously biased) IK has to be #1 for me.

Just to point up a couple of counters to the above post. Please feel free to post where you got your facts from. Because last time I checked, in 1992 (the only world cup Pakistan ever won), we were not even in the top 6 favourite teams to win, and we won. Aus were favourites, but then teams like Eng - WI - RSA, even NZ (Cause hosts) were all ahead of us. I cant remember if India was ranked ahead of us or not. And we won that tournament beating the UNDEFEATED team (NZ) not once, but TWICE. And in part thanks to guys like Inzi - Sohail (who IK HAND PICKED and backed).

Also, for Dhoni, India was in wc finals in 2003 before he took over. Before the 2011 world cup, they were one of the favourites (if not the favourite, I'd have to find the old gambling odds to confirm) to WIN IT ALL.

Also, last time I checked, in their last 5 test series overseas, the only team Dhoni has managed to beat was West Indies (and even that was only a 1-0 win).

Your entitled to your opinion obviously, so I cant legit argue with your ranking (Afridi #1....??). But to claim IK had a team that was considered "stronger" by the world than Dhoni's team, sorry, that is not true at all. That does not even count the unlimited resources BCCI basically has.

 

[vicky_iisc]

Also, for Dhoni, India was in wc finals in 2003 before he took over. Before the 2011 world cup, they were one of the favourites (if not the favourite, I'd have to find the old gambling odds to confirm) to WIN IT ALL.

It (gambler's opinion) doesn't mean anything.. you have to perform on the field to win.. Dhoni's captaincy was one of the major reasons India sailed through (Yuvraj and Sachin the others)..

In CT, Dhoni captained well to take a relatively new team to victory.

 

[Convict]

Yes, sure.. though it would have meant Marto out of the side ? Chennai Test was saved for you by him..

Anyway, I don't think Ponting's absence was the reason Aus won (that would be an insulting comment), just highlighting how stats can make things look :

Ponting has NEVER captained in a victory in India (and perhaps only won 1 or 2 matches as player).

It doesn't mean Ponting was a bad captain though.

Likewise Dhoni has never won or drawn a test in Australia

 

[vicky_iisc]

Likewise Dhoni has never won or drawn a test in Australia

Yes, so both are equally pathetic, though Ponting did not win in 7, whereas Dhoni didn't win in 4.. so let's wait for 3 more Dhoni loses/draws in aus..

 

[syedtumair]

Lets go beyond The Achievement tab and start from a point on who did the best job with players he had.MV never won a single world cup or CT but what he had was a team filled with avg players.He took the above avg out of them.This is what a good captain is able to do.


IK comes on top cause he had very limited resources...Just 2 bats with avg of 40+ in test and till 1987 he had no special magicians with ball.Yet he got the best of average players and that is why he goes to top the list.The team he left was pretty much the best Pakistan had

Ponting didnt had issues of underperformers.Every player had own value.The biggest test for him was keeping the team together and he did well.

Dhoni has the best set of talent.He had pretty much every big player in his team like ponting(sehwag,SRT,Yuvi,Bhaji,kumble,VVS,Dravid) already established in.For me both a equal when it comes to captaincy although ponting is slightly ahead when it comes to performance

 

[vicky_iisc]

Lets go beyond The Achievement tab and start from a point on who did the best job with players he had.MV never won a single world cup or CT but what he had was a team filled with avg players.He took the above avg out of them.This is what a good captain is able to do.


IK comes on top cause he had very limited resources...Just 2 bats with avg of 40+ in test and till 1987 he had no special magicians with ball.Yet he got the best of average players and that is why he goes to top the list.The team he left was pretty much the best Pakistan had

Ponting didnt had issues of underperformers.Every player had own value.The biggest test for him was keeping the team together and he did well.

Dhoni has the best set of talent.He had pretty much every big player in his team like ponting(sehwag,SRT,Yuvi,Bhaji,kumble,VVS,Dravid) already established in.For me both a equal when it comes to captaincy although ponting is slightly ahead when it comes to performance

I think you decided IK was on top earlier before looking for reasons, didn't you ?

 

[testcricketisbest]

You have to take in the quality of opposition faced, in IK's time, Windes were no1, all the others were strong too, but he managed to maintain Pak as no2 for ten years and even one later on and even won the lWC, in Dohnis time most of the teams have been subpar, especially after the Aussie greats retired, hence for me IK is the best captain and cricketer of the three

IK never won anything of note against WI when they were strongest under Clive Llyod, what great captaincy has he displayed he was below average captain for side which had some talent.

Ponting is best cricketer of the three by miles and Dhoni and IK are pretty close to each other.

 

[syedtumair]

I think you decided IK was on top earlier before looking for reasons, didn't you ?

the mind blowing reason that Dhoni has achived more in less time or ponting has no win against india in india?By that reasoning ricky ponting should be the captain of ATGs.Captaincy is based is more than Achivement tab.its about management of 10 players around you and getting the best out of them.

Saurav will the best indian captain when it comes to growth of players.He took the best of out of talent he had and turned them into players like sehwag and yuvi.

I read all the post u did on this topic and u clearly had one reasoning which tells who is deciding before thinking

 

[Buffet]

Captaincy is based is more than Achivement tab.its about management of 10 players around you and getting the best out of them.

Correct approach. I think it's also about what kind of team each captain left for their countries. Did those teams fulfilled their potential? I had one post where I was trying to see all captains during IK's time and their away record with some context. I had ignored the home records due to biased umpiring. Here is portion of that post,


-------------------------------

We are looking at away records of captains who played around same time frame and also what kind of team they had. We are also not talking about W/L ratio here. We are simply looking at how much they won outside taking account of resource they had.

Great-to-good away performances:

• AR Border (Aus) : Won 13 out of 42 ( Great record. Had a very average team , left a great team which dominated cricket )
  
• CH Lloyd (WI) : Won 23 out of 50 ( Great record. Started with a losing team, made them a great team. Plenty of legends playing in his team)
  
• JM Brearley (Eng): Won 6 out of 12 ( Great record. I don't have clue about quality of team he had but fantastic record)
  
• Javed Miandad (Pak): Won 4 out of 12 ( Good record. Had same team as IK)

Average Away performances:

• Imran Khan (Pak) : 26 played won 5 ( Average record. 2-3 legends and few good players)
• N Kapil Dev (India) 14 played won 2 ( Average record. 2 legends and few good players)
• GP Howarth (NZ) Played 13 won 3 ( Average record, no clue about quality of players )
• Greg Chappel won 3 out of 15 ( Average record, no clue about quality of players )

---------------------------------


Border and Loyd stands head and shoulder above others in their era in three things:

• Inheriting a losing team and built a winning team
• One made the team the greatest one in history and other left a team a team which dominated cricket for years.
• They won lot of matches away from home when compared to other captains of same era.

Winning and losing shouldn't be looked in isolation but I feel Border played with very weak team and still won so many games away. He also set the foundation of a team which dominated the cricket for years to come. Loyd also took a weak team but he had many great players with him but credit for taking a losing team and making it world beater.

For me, it's Allan Border over all names discussed in this thread by a comfortable margin. I will take Border over Dhoni, Ponting & IK ( three captains mentioned in the title of this thread) without hesitation.

[ Note: I haven't watched any captain during IK's time so it's mostly by input of others who watched them play]

 

[vicky_iisc]

the mind blowing reason that Dhoni has achived more in less time or ponting has no win against india in india?By that reasoning ricky ponting should be the captain of ATGs.Captaincy is based is more than Achivement tab.its about management of 10 players around you and getting the best out of them.

Saurav will the best indian captain when it comes to growth of players.He took the best of out of talent he had and turned them into players like sehwag and yuvi.

I read all the post u did on this topic and u clearly had one reasoning which tells who is deciding before thinking

You mean whether one decides before thinking is based on the number of reasonings he has ? What a logic sir..
Why is that reasoning wrong ? When did I say Dhoni has achieved more in less time ? I just said he won the world cup and CT and captained well in these two events.. the bowlers he had in WC were pathetic apart from Zaheer and in CT he took all newcomers to final and won..

In Test matches, he hasn't done anything great... and Ponting has not either.

While putting IK on top, you ignored others achievement saying they were blessed with good players.. what a logic.. only because IK found Akram, Waqar does it mean he carries all the credits for their performance all through their careers ?

 

[syedtumair]

Correct approach. I think it's also about what kind of team each captain left for their countries. Did those teams fulfilled their potential? I had one post where I was trying to see all captains during IK's time and their away record with some context. I had ignored the home records due to biased umpiring. Here is portion of that post,


-------------------------------

We are looking at away records of captains who played around same time frame and also what kind of team they had. We are also not talking about W/L ratio here. We are simply looking at how much they won outside taking account of resource they had.

Great-to-good away performances:

• AR Border (Aus) : Won 13 out of 42 ( Great record. Had a very average team , left a great team which dominated cricket )
  
• CH Lloyd (WI) : Won 23 out of 50 ( Great record. Started with a losing team, made them a great team. Plenty of legends playing in his team)
  
• JM Brearley (Eng): Won 6 out of 12 ( Great record. I don't have clue about quality of team he had but fantastic record)
  
• Javed Miandad (Pak): Won 4 out of 12 ( Good record. Had same team as IK)

Average Away performances:

• Imran Khan (Pak) : 26 played won 5 ( Average record. 2-3 legends and few good players)
• N Kapil Dev (India) 14 played won 2 ( Average record. 2 legends and few good players)
• GP Howarth (NZ) Played 13 won 3 ( Average record, no clue about quality of players )
• Greg Chappel won 3 out of 15 ( Average record, no clue about quality of players )

---------------------------------


Border and Loyd stands head and shoulder above others in their era in three things:

• Inheriting a losing team and built a winning team
• One made the team the greatest one in history and other left a team a team which dominated cricket for years.
• They won lot of matches away from home when compared to other captains of same era.

Winning and losing shouldn't be looked in isolation but I feel Border played with very weak team and still won so many games away. He also set the foundation of a team which dominated the cricket for years to come. Loyd also took a weak team but he had many great players with him but credit for taking a losing team and making it world beater.

For me, it's Allan Border over all names discussed in this thread by a comfortable margin. I will take Border over Dhoni, Ponting & IK ( three captains mentioned in the title of this thread) without hesitation.

[ Note: I haven't watched any captain during IK's time so it's mostly by input of others who watched them play]

very good post.border deffo made the best out of limited talent

 

[jeetu]

I'll put Dhoni over IK and Ponting.
From the time i have been watching i put LLoyd , Border and Taylor as the top 3.

 

[proud_pakistani]

There is only one Kuptaan - Imran Khan.

 

[vicky_iisc]

There is only one Kuptaan - Imran Khan.

Yeh lo.. aapne to matter solve kar diya.. people were fighting for 200 posts which you decided in one-liner.. what a fact filled judgment.

 

[Cryin Out Loud]

Dhoni, IK, Ponting.

IMVHO that's how history will record it.

 

[Singham]

Imran khan for me. He found Wasim, waqar, inzamam, and many others gems for Pakistan. Dhoni has backed the likes of irfan pathan, rp singh, and jadeja. Only jadeja has improved. As far as finding the talents are concerned, Imran khan and Ganguly tops the list for me.

 

[Buffet]

Imran khan for me. He found Wasim, waqar, inzamam, and many others gems for Pakistan. Dhoni has backed the likes of irfan pathan, rp singh, and jadeja. Only jadeja has improved. As far as finding the talents are concerned, Imran khan and Ganguly tops the list for me.

I count finding great talent as a plus point but at the same time I count not leaving a team which gels and fulfill it's potential as a negative. It's about setting the right sustainable culture for future. Border did a heck of a job in setting the right culture and attitude for the next generation.

Among the three listed in title of this thread , I feel IK was a better captain. Again, I have not seen him captaining too much so based on what I have heard and read.

 

[ViciousMachine]

It (gambler's opinion) doesn't mean anything.. you have to perform on the field to win.. Dhoni's captaincy was one of the major reasons India sailed through (Yuvraj and Sachin the others)..

In CT, Dhoni captained well to take a relatively new team to victory.

Gambling odds may not mean much in terms of who "wins". But gambling odds sets the bar for who is the FAVOURITE to win. Done by acturials and influenced by the majority of people following the game.

India was one of the the favourites in the WC 2011. Did Dhoni's calmness help them win? ABSOLUTELY. But to claim Dhoni had less "talent" than IK did? Thats a borderline joke to me. It is obviously opinion so you can believe what you want.

As for the CT, once again, having Dhwana and Sharma opening made it pretty easy to win. That was not Dhoni's captaincy, thats just the talent India has in their batting. Are you going to tell me Kohli is a good captain cause he captained an even "newer" team to victory over Zimbabwe?

IK IS THE BEST!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Cryin Out Loud]

Imran khan for me. He found Wasim, waqar, inzamam, and many others gems for Pakistan. Dhoni has backed the likes of irfan pathan, rp singh, and jadeja. Only jadeja has improved. As far as finding the talents are concerned, Imran khan and Ganguly tops the list for me.

There are many ways to evaluate a captain, but ultimately, a captain is not to be judged on who came after him, or who he discovered.

A captain is to be judged on his results. Period.

 

[idly sambar]

Correct approach. I think it's also about what kind of team each captain left for their countries. Did those teams fulfilled their potential? I had one post where I was trying to see all captains during IK's time and their away record with some context. I had ignored the home records due to biased umpiring. Here is portion of that post,


-------------------------------

We are looking at away records of captains who played around same time frame and also what kind of team they had. We are also not talking about W/L ratio here. We are simply looking at how much they won outside taking account of resource they had.

Great-to-good away performances:

• AR Border (Aus) : Won 13 out of 42 ( Great record. Had a very average team , left a great team which dominated cricket )
  
• CH Lloyd (WI) : Won 23 out of 50 ( Great record. Started with a losing team, made them a great team. Plenty of legends playing in his team)
  
• JM Brearley (Eng): Won 6 out of 12 ( Great record. I don't have clue about quality of team he had but fantastic record)
  
• Javed Miandad (Pak): Won 4 out of 12 ( Good record. Had same team as IK)

Average Away performances:

• Imran Khan (Pak) : 26 played won 5 ( Average record. 2-3 legends and few good players)
• N Kapil Dev (India) 14 played won 2 ( Average record. 2 legends and few good players)
• GP Howarth (NZ) Played 13 won 3 ( Average record, no clue about quality of players )
• Greg Chappel won 3 out of 15 ( Average record, no clue about quality of players )

---------------------------------


Border and Loyd stands head and shoulder above others in their era in three things:

• Inheriting a losing team and built a winning team
• One made the team the greatest one in history and other left a team a team which dominated cricket for years.
• They won lot of matches away from home when compared to other captains of same era.

Winning and losing shouldn't be looked in isolation but I feel Border played with very weak team and still won so many games away. He also set the foundation of a team which dominated the cricket for years to come. Loyd also took a weak team but he had many great players with him but credit for taking a losing team and making it world beater.

For me, it's Allan Border over all names discussed in this thread by a comfortable margin. I will take Border over Dhoni, Ponting & IK ( three captains mentioned in the title of this thread) without hesitation.

[ Note: I haven't watched any captain during IK's time so it's mostly by input of others who watched them play]

Javed Miandad is a better tactician than Imran Khan. JM is very under rated as a captain because of his antics and other childish stuff.

 

[Buffet]

A captain is to be judged on his results.

You have to take account of resources( other 10 players) if you only go by results.

 

[syedtumair]

Why is that reasoning wrong ? When did I say Dhoni has achieved more in less time ? I just said he won the world cup and CT and captained well in these two events.. the bowlers he had in WC were pathetic apart from Zaheer and in CT he took all newcomers to final and won..

ponting in 2009 CT took a whole new Australian side to victory...He won 2WCs and 2CTs.His team in.And last time i checked not even a single match was won due to bowling in 2011.All matches were won due to stong show of bats.2011 was pretty much one sided.Indian side was too perfect and had both experience and talent.

In Test matches, he hasn't done anything great... and Ponting has not either.

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/content/records/105118.html

Nice.So nothing special other than Most consecutive wins (16 ).Also won 48 out 77 test matches and lost only 16.That is far better win to loss ratio (3) than border .he is 3rd on list for best win to loss ratio in test cricket and number 1 in ODi .


http://www.espncricinfo.com/australia/content/story/508548.html
He is far ahead of dhoni in ODi when we see win to loss ratio.Look at stats and tell me how was he not
great

While putting IK on top, you ignored others achievement saying they were blessed with good players.. what a logic.. only because IK found Akram, Waqar does it mean he carries all the credits for their performance all through their careers ?

how can you put a whole team effort to one man?You win cups due to combined efforts.dhoni himself wasn't great in 2013 CT but his team was.remember they were number 1 side in the world before CT.
the fact dhoni has so much ready-made cricketers at his disposal in 2011 is one of the main contributor to his success.But you wont realize how much saurav was important in that case or how much Allan Border was important to success of Taylor/Waugh and how much important was Waugh to Ponting or how much important was Vaughan to Strauss/Cook.

And about the last point which is completely irrelevant to my post you brought up
try reading interviews of Wasim or Waqar and tell me how much they think IK was important to them

hint : Wasim still uses the word "My mentor the great imran khan"

 

[syedtumair]

There are many ways to evaluate a captain, but ultimately, a captain is not to be judged on who came after him, or who he discovered.

A captain is to be judged on his results. Period.

fair enough. Best captain out of 3 is Ricky Ponting by results

 

[vicky_iisc]

Gambling odds may not mean much in terms of who "wins". But gambling odds sets the bar for who is the FAVOURITE to win. Done by acturials and influenced by the majority of people following the game.

India was one of the the favourites in the WC 2011. Did Dhoni's calmness help them win? ABSOLUTELY. But to claim Dhoni had less "talent" than IK did? Thats a borderline joke to me. It is obviously opinion so you can believe what you want.

As for the CT, once again, having Dhwana and Sharma opening made it pretty easy to win. That was not Dhoni's captaincy, thats just the talent India has in their batting. Are you going to tell me Kohli is a good captain cause he captained an even "newer" team to victory over Zimbabwe?

IK IS THE BEST!!!!!!!!!!!

There are many assumptions you made here in this post, and your war cry at the end "IK IS THE BEST" is funny.

In CT, Dhoni decided to open with Rohit..it was ofcourse his captaincy.. Dhawan wasn't a proven performer.. he was a newcomer and Jadeja, Ashwin, Rohit emergence is all because of Dhoni's backing.. you need to follow indian cricket to understand it..

Winning CT and winning in Zim.. how are they even comparable ?

As I said, the funniest part of your post was the ALL-ARGUMENT-ENDING-WAR-CRY in the end..

 

[Itachi]

So many good points in these posts, really a great debate, but for me (and I am obviously biased) IK has to be #1 for me.

Just to point up a couple of counters to the above post. Please feel free to post where you got your facts from. Because last time I checked, in 1992 (the only world cup Pakistan ever won), we were not even in the top 6 favourite teams to win, and we won. Aus were favourites, but then teams like Eng - WI - RSA, even NZ (Cause hosts) were all ahead of us. I cant remember if India was ranked ahead of us or not. And we won that tournament beating the UNDEFEATED team (NZ) not once, but TWICE. And in part thanks to guys like Inzi - Sohail (who IK HAND PICKED and backed).

Also, for Dhoni, India was in wc finals in 2003 before he took over. Before the 2011 world cup, they were one of the favourites (if not the favourite, I'd have to find the old gambling odds to confirm) to WIN IT ALL.

Also, last time I checked, in their last 5 test series overseas, the only team Dhoni has managed to beat was West Indies (and even that was only a 1-0 win).

Your entitled to your opinion obviously, so I cant legit argue with your ranking (Afridi #1....??). But to claim IK had a team that was considered "stronger" by the world than Dhoni's team, sorry, that is not true at all. That does not even count the unlimited resources BCCI basically has.

Arguement taken.

Pakistan was indeed fav. Not on papers but on prospect. [e.g. The CT Team india bowling was less on papers than team india who won the world cup but the former had actual chance to prospect under tougher situations].

remember, We are discussing about their leadership ability, Not their bowling, batting or fielding. Dhoni can make endless Zeros but i will still keep him captain if he is a good manager. So individual performance should be out of the picture in this context.

I put Afridi > Dhoni. people will laugh perhaps. but there's a reason. Give a team to IK, Dhoni, Ponting or any other cricketer. I dare say, getting the leadership just 1 month before the biggest even of world cricket, no one except Afridi can take the team to SF. not even my fav captain Dhoni.

Afridi is a poor player. Not a good batsman, an Okish bowler,poor fielder, Media seeking perhaps.... But when it comes to leadership, he leads from the front.

Criticise him as a player. But as a leader, he is natural.

Opposite to tendu who was a great player but probably one of the worst candidate for a leader.

 

[vicky_iisc]

ponting in 2009 CT took a whole new Australian side to victory...He won 2WCs and 2CTs.His team in.And last time i checked not even a single match was won due to bowling in 2011.All matches were won due to stong show of bats.2011 was pretty much one sided.Indian side was too perfect and had both experience and talent.



http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/content/records/105118.html

Nice.So nothing special other than Most consecutive wins (16 ).Also won 48 out 77 test matches and lost only 16.That is far better win to loss ratio (3) than border .he is 3rd on list for best win to loss ratio in test cricket and number 1 in ODi .


http://www.espncricinfo.com/australia/content/story/508548.html
He is far ahead of dhoni in ODi when we see win to loss ratio.Look at stats and tell me how was he not
great




how can you put a whole team effort to one man?You win cups due to combined efforts.dhoni himself wasn't great in 2013 CT but his team was.remember they were number 1 side in the world before CT.
the fact dhoni has so much ready-made cricketers at his disposal in 2011 is one of the main contributor to his success.But you wont realize how much saurav was important in that case or how much Allan Border was important to success of Taylor/Waugh and how much important was Waugh to Ponting or how much important was Vaughan to Strauss/Cook.

And about the last point which is completely irrelevant to my post you brought up
try reading interviews of Wasim or Waqar and tell me how much they think IK was important to them

hint : Wasim still uses the word "My mentor the great imran khan"

Long post..

but I will reply to your last part.. so what ?? Wasim gives credit to Imran for mentoring him/coaching him.. but how does it mean that Wasim's performance credit goes to Imran the leader and not Imran the mentor.. hope you get my point.

To say that India won because of batting and not bowling in WC is far from truth.. India scored 260 around scores in QF/SF/Final.. bowlers restricted opposition to less than 300 in all these 3 key games.. which on Indian wickets is big thing.

 

[mithun_minhas]

Probably not but they would have at least put up a fight.

Agreed. Ponting would bat for the terrible Aussie batsmen.

Ponting will also bowl and take 5 fers and at least draw one test match.

A captain is only as good as his team.

Haven't seen IK, but both Ponting and MSD has played match winning knocks in a WC final and willed their team to victory.

That is what I call lead from the front.

I think of India manage to win against SA in the away tour, I would put Dhoni right at the top. Considering how terrible Indian bowling is compared to Pak or Eng or Aus, this would be an unbelievable achievement.

 

[vicky_iisc]

Arguement taken.

Pakistan was indeed fav. Not on papers but on prospect. [e.g. The CT Team india bowling was less on papers than team india who won the world cup but the former had actual chance to prospect under tougher situations].

remember, We are discussing about their leadership ability, Not their bowling, batting or fielding. Dhoni can make endless Zeros but i will still keep him captain if he is a good manager. So individual performance should be out of the picture in this context.

I put Afridi > Dhoni. people will laugh perhaps. but there's a reason. Give a team to IK, Dhoni, Ponting or any other cricketer. I dare say, getting the leadership just 1 month before the biggest even of world cricket, no one except Afridi can take the team to SF. not even my fav captain Dhoni.

Afridi is a poor player. Not a good batsman, an Okish bowler,poor fielder, Media seeking perhaps.... But when it comes to leadership, he leads from the front.

Criticise him as a player. But as a leader, he is natural.

Opposite to tendu who was a great player but probably one of the worst candidate for a leader.

He took the team to SF, but it doesn't mean no one else could have done it, as your post implied..

Did Afridi play a capatain's part in that or was it good performances by his players who are very unpredictable.. ?

 

[vicky_iisc]

how can you put a whole team effort to one man?You win cups due to combined efforts.dhoni himself wasn't great in 2013 CT but his team was.remember they were number 1 side in the world before CT.
the fact dhoni has so much ready-made cricketers at his disposal in 2011 is one of the main contributor to his success.But you wont realize how much saurav was important in that case or how much Allan Border was important to success of Taylor/Waugh and how much important was Waugh to Ponting or how much important was Vaughan to Strauss/Cook.

Who says Sourav wasn't imp for India's upliftment.. I rate him higher than Dhoni as a Test captain.. but in ODIs Dhoni has won matches by his cool mind as a captain.. in CT final and in WC too, Dhoni's captaincy kind of covered India's bowling resources limitation.

India was no.1 but CT they were not favourites.. we can look at predictions of SF before CT, India was not mentioned..

 

[Itachi]

He took the team to SF, but it doesn't mean no one else could have done it, as your post implied..

Did Afridi play a capatain's part in that or was it good performances by his players who are very unpredictable.. ?

you missed two important points in the post which should be transparent.

1. 2011 world cup pak team was the worst among the pak teams who had played.

2. Afridi got the leadership only a month before.

IK didn't have the restrictions like Afridi. He was the dammmn selector too! He could hand picked eah player he wanted and play them.

But afridi was restrited was the men that were selected to him.

Dhoni won world cup because 2011 world cup happened in India. You know it, I know it.

90% of Ponting's leadership revolved around Mcgrath, warne, Gillespie, Gilchrist, hayden, lenger, bevan.... You make a donkey the captain of the team and still that team will dominate.

Leadership quality is not only equivalent to success.

But it is Leadership = k.success (where k is a constant)

k = the ability to guide a team through limited resource.

Afridi wins hands down in this equation.

 

[Uzi]

Imran Khan Vs Dhoni Vs Ponting. Who is a better leader?

Imran Khan for me. One of the greatest players of all time and a great fearless leader. Stood up to the mighty Windies. Ponying is an all time great too, but never really rated him much as a captain. Dhoni is a great ODI player and leader in ODIs, but is found wanting in the real form of the game, tests.

 

[vicky_iisc]

you missed two important points in the post which should be transparent.

1. 2011 world cup pak team was the worst among the pak teams who had played.

2. Afridi got the leadership only a month before.

IK didn't have the restrictions like Afridi. He was the dammmn selector too! He could hand picked eah player he wanted and play them.

But afridi was restrited was the men that were selected to him.

Dhoni won world cup because 2011 world cup happened in India. You know it, I know it.

90% of Ponting's leadership revolved around Mcgrath, warne, Gillespie, Gilchrist, hayden, lenger, bevan.... You make a donkey the captain of the team and still that team will dominate.

Leadership quality is not only equivalent to success.

But it is Leadership = k.success (where k is a constant)

k = the ability to guide a team through limited resource.

Afridi wins hands down in this equation.

What if Misbah was given the captaincy before 1 month to world cup ? Are you saying Pak would not have reached SF .. ? Or if Afridi was given it 1 year ago, he would have won the cup ? My opinion is, irrespective of who was captain, Pak was unpredictable and would have crashed/reached SF without any surety.. random..

What makes you reach to the conclusion that Dhoni could not have done it (1 month or 1 year..) ?

WC happened in India, but FYI, it was the first time a host nation won the WC, so it works the other way..

CT did not happen in India.

Limited resource ? A bowling line up including Gul/Ajmal/himself/Akhtar/Wahab was limited ? Did he inspire them to perform ?

 

[syedtumair]

Long post..

but I will reply to your last part.. so what ?? Wasim gives credit to Imran for mentoring him/coaching him.. but how does it mean that Wasim's performance credit goes to Imran the leader and not Imran the mentor.. hope you get my point.

To say that India won because of batting and not bowling in WC is far from truth.. India scored 260 around scores in QF/SF/Final.. bowlers restricted opposition to less than 300 in all these 3 key games.. which on Indian wickets is big thing.

India lost the only game to south africa that was due to bowling... made 290+ that game...rest were either 300+ that resulted in wins or chasing which were all won with ease.

i just point the last part as a reminder to show much much imran was important to wasim and waqar and what really u should do is read the the long post

 

[vicky_iisc]

India lost the only game to south africa that was due to bowling... made 290+ that game...rest were either 300+ that resulted in wins or chasing which were all won with ease.

i just point the last part as a reminder to show much much imran was important to wasim and waqar and what really u should do is read the the long post

I read your whole post, and replied only to last part.. (replied to other part in separate post)..

The match which India lost was because of batting.. India was 260/1 in around 40 overs.. with Tendulkar playing a gem, and then they collapsed to 296.. that was a 320 wicket (Nagpur).. India lost in the last over when 15 runs were scored..

No, rest were not 300+.. What about QF/SF/Final where bowlers restricted opposition to around 260-270.. ?

In CT, India defended 130 in 20 overs in final.. bundled Pakistan for 170, WI for 230, SL for 160+..

 

[Itachi]

What if Misbah was given the captaincy before 1 month to world cup ? Are you saying Pak would not have reached SF .. ?

Misbah couldn't handle the pressure of CT after months of special training


What makes you reach to the conclusion that Dhoni could not have done it (1 month or 1 year..) ?

dhoni's bat is chasing. If bat 1st, he becomes vulnerable very much. So he is 50%

WC happened in India, but FYI, it was the first time a host nation won the WC, so it works the other way..

india was always tiger at home. '96 wc also could have been won had, eden garden didn't make a mess out of it.

CT did not happen in India.

i don't count CT even as a cup. WC is the real deal.

....

 

[amax]

Dhoni is a very limited cricketer he cannot produce match wining performances on his own when his team is going down(that 8-0) while Ponting and Imran are both greats in their department they can step up and change a test match single handily (specially Imran) .

 

[Electron]

From > "Denial Thread" to a "Joke Thread" .. whatta journey.

 

[vicky_iisc]

....

Ohh.. you don't count CT as a cup.. but teams participating in that did.. or they also took it lightly ? India won the WC in Eng and home both..so not sure what you mean by tiger at home.. and in 96, SL in SF beat us or in finals, Aus would have beaten us...

How did you arrive at 50% figure for Dhoni while batting first ? In WC SF, he batted first and beat Pak.. in QF, he did not contribute with the bat.. in fact apart from final he didn't play well at all.. it was his captaincy which put India through.

Ashish Nehra/Munaf Patel/Sreesanth/Piyush Chawla/Yuvraj/Raina as bowlers.. you just look at the list to appreciate the meaning of limited resources.

 

[vicky_iisc]

Dhoni is a very limited cricketer he cannot produce match wining performances on his own when his team is going down(that 8-0) while Ponting and Imran are both greats in their department they can step up and change a test match single handily (specially Imran) .

In Test matches, Dhoni isn't great.. though in ODIs he has changed many games ..

but we are talking purely on captaincy here.. not sure what you mean single handedly.

 

[syedtumair]

I read your whole post, and replied only to last part.. (replied to other part in separate post)..

The match which India lost was because of batting.. India was 260/1 in around 40 overs.. with Tendulkar playing a gem, and then they collapsed to 296.. that was a 320 wicket (Nagpur).. India lost in the last over when 15 runs were scored..

No, rest were not 300+.. What about QF/SF/Final where bowlers restricted opposition to around 260-270.. ?

In CT, India defended 130 in 20 overs in final.. bundled Pakistan for 170, WI for 230, SL for 160+..

bundled Pakistan for 170 is Achivement?Pakistan didnt crossed 180 in all 3 matches.and how is restricting to 270 good bowling.If it was 230 then it is good bowling. Anything above 250 is good enuff score in ODi

 

[vicky_iisc]

bundled Pakistan for 170 is Achivement?Pakistan didnt crossed 180 in all 3 matches.and how is restricting to 270 good bowling.If it was 230 then it is good bowling. Anything above 250 is good enuff score in ODi

They restricted Pakistan to 240 around only in WC whereas Pakistani bowlers gave 260+ to India
other better teams scored 260-270 .. which is still a lesser score in Indian conditions..

Ohh.. I forgot I should not count restricting Pakistani batting as achievement..

 

[syedtumair]

They restricted Pakistan to 240 around only in WC whereas Pakistani bowlers gave 260+ to India
other better teams scored 260-270 .. which is still a lesser score in Indian conditions..

Ohh.. I forgot I should not count restricting Pakistani batting as achievement..

that was mainly because tendulkar made best use of 5 chances he got.Without that it was pretty much dead game for india

 

[vicky_iisc]

that was mainly because tendulkar made best use of 5 chances he got.Without that it was pretty much dead game for india

Ohh... who gave him 5 chances ? Blame your fielders first and last.. don't bring it to put down others achievements. Still, 260 in Indian condition was chasable.. why Pak didn't chase it ? ohh.. forgot again.. they are 180-170 runs batting team..

BTW, I never see other countries fans using their own players mistakes to bring down opposition achievements.. but India/Pak fans do it.. specially Pakistani fans calling those 5 dropped catches as something external effect like weather/umpire.. (Tendulkar got 5 lives) and never accept that every chance given to opposition is your own fault.

 

[idly sambar]

In Test matches, Dhoni isn't great.. though in ODIs he has changed many games ..

but we are talking purely on captaincy here.. not sure what you mean single handedly.

The way that guy has been talking about Imran, its as if Imran won so many matches as a captain and some of them singlehandedly.

Dhoni has far better record as a captain than Imran. Achievement wise, its ponting > Dhoni > Imran. no comparison there at all.

personally for me all are overrated. IMHO Ganguly is the best from India, AB/Mark Taylor from Australia. Imran is the best from Pakistan (mainly because others are very average or no one stayed for long. they kept changing captains more often than any other team).

without considering the achievement, I would say Imran is slightly better than other two. Dhoni is horrible in test as a captain. Ponting was not really tested as a captain most of his career as he had great team around him.

 

[syedtumair]

Ohh... who gave him 5 chances ? Blame your fielders first and last.. don't bring it to put down others achievements. Still, 260 in Indian condition was chasable.. why Pak didn't chase it ? ohh.. forgot again.. they are 180-170 runs batting team..

BTW, I never see other countries fans using their own players mistakes to bring down opposition achievements.. but India/Pak fans do it.. specially Pakistani fans calling those 5 dropped catches as something external effect like weather/umpire.. (Tendulkar got 5 lives) and never accept that every chance given to opposition is your own fault.

a simple question.
Why dhoni above ponting?

 

[vicky_iisc]

a simple question.
Why dhoni above ponting?

I am not into comparison of captains.. both are ok kind of captains, not greats ..
But if along the way in the thread, some comment or some point I don't agree with, I am putting my views and hopefully trying to clear the picture or learn more facts..

 

[Aman]

Agreed. Ponting would bat for the terrible Aussie batsmen.

Ponting will also bowl and take 5 fers and at least draw one test match.

A captain is only as good as his team.

Haven't seen IK, but both Ponting and MSD has played match winning knocks in a WC final and willed their team to victory.

That is what I call lead from the front.

I think of India manage to win against SA in the away tour, I would put Dhoni right at the top. Considering how terrible Indian bowling is compared to Pak or Eng or Aus, this would be an unbelievable achievement.

He'd never give up and throw his body around, he'd lead from the front like a great captain does. His win at all cost attitude would bring the best out of players and the players wouldn't give in and play for him.

 

[WebGuru]

Agreed. Ponting would bat for the terrible Aussie batsmen.

Ponting will also bowl and take 5 fers and at least draw one test match.

A captain is only as good as his team.

Haven't seen IK, but both Ponting and MSD has played match winning knocks in a WC final and willed their team to victory.

That is what I call lead from the front.

I think of India manage to win against SA in the away tour, I would put Dhoni right at the top. Considering how terrible Indian bowling is compared to Pak or Eng or Aus, this would be an unbelievable achievement.

IK scored 72 runs and got 1 wicket in WC final with an injured shoulder...He was the heighest run scorer in that match...If you look at the scorecard the difference between both teams was only IK and his runs otherwise Eng managed to score 227 while chasing 249


http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/current/match/65156.html

.

 

[Aman]

IK scored 72 runs and got 1 wicket in WC final with an injured shoulder...He was the heighest run scorer in that match...


http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/current/match/65156.html

.

@MM Didn't see that gem, I wasn't even born back then but even I knew that

 

[Sidilicious]

When MSD is in most world XI's as captain give me a call

From the ICC awards

In ODIs Dhoni has bee the captain in 3 out of the last 5 times, and is heading towards another year of bring the captain

In tests, Dhoni has been the captain in 2 out of the last 4 years.

Says a fair bit about his captaincy.

 

[Aman]

Re: Imran Khan Vs Dhoni Vs Ponting. Who is a better leader?

All time XIs...

Sent from my GT-I9300 using Tapatalk 2

 

[idly sambar]

All time XIs...

Sent from my GT-I9300 using Tapatalk 2

First of all you need to be in the All Time 11 to get selected as a Captain of all time 11. Imran is there in the all time eleven mainly for him being a great all rounder. that means, for his bowling and batting skills. Ponting and Dhoni cant get in to all time eleven with their batting or wicket keeping skills. Hope you get the point. There is no point in talking about all time eleven here.

 

[vicky_iisc]

He'd never give up and throw his body around, he'd lead from the front like a great captain does. His win at all cost attitude would bring the best out of players and the players wouldn't give in and play for him.

Ya sure.. it happened in the other 7 matches he captained and didn't win.. come on.. don't be emotional "throw his body around"..