"India are the most under-performing white-ball team in history": Michael Vaughan

[GLORY OF '92]

India are the most under-performing white-ball team in history. Every player in the world who goes to the Indian Premier League says how it improves their game but what have India ever delivered?

Since winning the 50 over World Cup on home soil in 2011 what have they done? Nothing. India are playing a white-ball game that is dated and have done for years.

How they have not maximised someone like Rishabh Pant is incredible. In this era, put him up the top to launch it. How have they only got five bowling options when you think 10 or 15 years ago all of India’s top six could bowl a little bit – Sachin Tendulkar, Suresh Raina, Virender Sehwag and even Sourav Ganguly? None of the batsmen bowl so the captain has only got five options.

I’m just staggered by how they play T20 cricket for the talent they have. They have the players, but just do not have the right process in place. They have to go for it. Why do they give the opposition bowlers the first five overs to bed in?

We know in T20 cricket the stats tell you a team needs a spinner who can turn it both ways. India have plenty of leg-spinners. Where are they?

They have a left-armer in Arshdeep Singh who swings it back into the right-handers. So what do they do defending 168? They put on Bhuvneshwar Kumar bowling outswing to give Jos Buttler and Alex Hales width. Where is the left-arm seamer swinging it in to Buttler and Hales in the first over? Madness. Cramp them for room. Do not give them a chance to get off to a flyer in the first over and settle nerves.

It is fantastic what India brings to cricket with the IPL and their fans. To see 88,000 at the MCG for a dead rubber against Zimbabwe was marvellous for the game. They are so important for world cricket but for all the advantages India have, they must win more.

Even in their own backyard at the 2016 World T20 they did not reach the final. They were nowhere last year. This time it took an outrageous innings by Virat Kohli, probably the best in T20 of all time, to beat Pakistan in the group stages. They massively underachieve for their skill levels.

It was a wise decision to bowl first. I thought it was a big risk because England defend so well but the reason they did it was because Kohli is a brilliant chaser. They played on his mind by setting him the challenge.

India have to be honest now. What happens when India arrive at a World Cup? Everyone plays them up. Nobody wants to criticise them because you get hammered on social media and pundits worry about losing work in India one day. But it is time to tell it straight. They can hide behind their great players but it is about getting a team playing the right way as a whole. Their bowling options are too few, they do not bat deep enough and lack spin tricks.

Let’s not take away the brilliance of England and the story of Alex Hales – someone who has gone through three years of turmoil and added so much to the 2019 campaign only to be airbrushed out of English cricket.

I hope he gets redemption in the final and he is the man who wins it for England. Hales is a brilliant white-ball player and Rob Key, the director of cricket, deserves a huge amount of credit for being mature and reasonable about the situation.

He knows Hales is the best white-ball T20 cricketer we have to open the batting with Jonny Bairstow injured. If the other players were not happy about picking him again then tough. He told them to cope with it. Be grown up. And he has been proven right.

It is magnificent to think that 30 years on from the 1992 final against Pakistan we have a rematch. Okay it is a different format but the occasion will feel the same. It will mean so much to Pakistan. If Babar Azam lifts the trophy, who knows he might be prime minister of Pakistan one day. You put yourself on a pedestal forever in Pakistan cricket. It is a huge moment.

If you look at England, I worry about them without Mark Wood and Dawid Malan. With Jofra Archer and Jonny Bairstow out as well, England have lost a core of their first choice team.

Semi-finals are generally very tight. But for England to blow India away in that nature shows how far we have come in white-ball cricket over the past seven years since they were knocked out of the 2015 World Cup in Adelaide. Brilliance from everyone involved. We have depth now.

Buttler has led them so well. I hope he lifts the trophy on Sunday. He is one of the good guys in the game. What an opportunity he has now.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/cricket/2022/11/10/india-under-performing-team-white-ball-history/


==


Some good points by him.

 

[jnaveen1980]

India's problem is well known. Bowlers can't bat. Batsmen can't bowl. 80% of the batsmen and bowlers can't field. So they leave out wicket taking options they fill with half baked all rounders who can't take wickets. India is unable to create depth at all. Bumrah not withstanding his Test record of most runs in an over is not a totally reliable hitter. In simple terms India misses a Shadab. Jadeja is the closest. Jadeja is more accomplished batsman. But bowlingwise okay in T20 format. Not a wicket taker. Terrific fielder. So Jaddu's absence created a vaccuum. So they had to fill Jadeja's spot two non wicket takers who can bat instead of Chahal.

 

[Ab Fan]

Then what about South Africa and New Zealand?

India still have won more ICC trophies(5 in LOIs) than England so not sure what bell is Vaughan ringing here.

 

[jnaveen1980]

Then what about South Africa and New Zealand?

India still have won more ICC trophies(5 in LOIs) than England so not sure what bell is Vaughan ringing here.

SA can have all the players in the world. They will still find a way ... I can still vividly remember the inconsolable face of Mone Morkel in the world cup semi final.

 

[Nikhil_cric]

Then what about South Africa and New Zealand?

India still have won more ICC trophies(5 in LOIs) than England so not sure what bell is Vaughan ringing here.

Second only to Australia. Apart from Atherton these nondescript English ex players turned pundits are fairly clueless and I really pity anyone who pays for their juvenile analysis. Nasser Hussain went on to say that it's mindset that is hurting India. Guy has seen England's team become successful right under his nose for the last 7 years and still can't make out what makes a successful T20 side.

 

[MenInG]

Vaughan and many others asking this question.

 

[Rana]

What about England until they started to poach players from Ireland, South Africa, Zimbabwe and the Caribbean?

 

[Mamoon]

India deserved to win the following:

2012 T20 World Cup
2014 T20 World Cup
2016 T20 World Cup
2017 Champions Trophy
2021 T20 World Cup

Both India and England deserved to win the 2017 Champions Trophy, but since England lost the semifinal to Pakistan, India should have won the final.

So India should have won at least five more tournaments post 2010.

India post 2010 have established themselves as the GOAT Asian Test team and third only to Australia and West Indies in history.

Had they won 2-3 more Limited Overs trophies in this period, they would have also established themselves as the third best Limited Overs side ever after Australia and West Indies.

So I agree with Vaughan - they have underachieved big time.

 

[Ab Fan]

Second only to Australia. Apart from Atherton these nondescript English ex players turned pundits are fairly clueless and I really pity anyone who pays for their juvenile analysis. Nasser Hussain went on to say that it's mindset that is hurting India. Guy has seen England's team become successful right under his nose for the last 7 years and still can't make out what makes a successful T20 side.

He is making a fair point here if we think only from Indian point of view. There are quite a few things India really need to learn in this format and quickly.

Bishnoi was doing well before the tournament but they picked Chahal on account of experience and then they played Ashwin all the matches and persisted with Axar as the other spinner. Simply no clue of what should be the right picks.

Rohit clearly failed as captain in this tournament.

 

[Ab Fan]

India's problem is well known. Bowlers can't bat. Batsmen can't bowl. 80% of the batsmen and bowlers can't field. So they leave out wicket taking options they fill with half baked all rounders who can't take wickets. India is unable to create depth at all. Bumrah not withstanding his Test record of most runs in an over is not a totally reliable hitter. In simple terms India misses a Shadab. Jadeja is the closest. Jadeja is more accomplished batsman. But bowlingwise okay in T20 format. Not a wicket taker. Terrific fielder. So Jaddu's absence created a vaccuum. So they had to fill Jadeja's spot two non wicket takers who can bat instead of Chahal.

Bhai Shadab scored 52 of 22. Has Jadeja ever played a knock like that in T20s? Had he played, he too would have scored at similar strike rate as the top order did and accelerated after reaching the 20 mark. This won't really have helped the total increase by 15-20 runs.

Having an extra anchoring batsman doesn't help, an extra hitter is what you need in T20s. Pant didn't even got his batting in last game until 19th over.

 

[Mamoon]

The 2023 World Cup will be for Kohli, Rohit, Rahul, Ashwin, Jadeja etc. what the 2011 World Cup was for Tendulkar, Sehwag, Gambhir, Zaheer, Harbhajan etc.

The last dance. The last shot at winning a World Cup. A billion fans behind them. Home turf.

There was a lot of desperation among the Indian players and all of them were giving their 110% at every moment and going the extra mile.

We will probably see the same from this Indian team next year. A level of desperation and hunger that we have big witnessed over the past few tournaments.

The 2000s generation pulled it off in 2011. Let’s see what the 2010s generation does.

 

[IAJ]

The 2023 World Cup will be for Kohli, Rohit, Rahul, Ashwin, Jadeja etc. what the 2011 World Cup was for Tendulkar, Sehwag, Gambhir, Zaheer, Harbhajan etc.

The last dance. The last shot at winning a World Cup. A billion fans behind them. Home turf.

There was a lot of desperation among the Indian players and all of them were giving their 110% at every moment and going the extra mile.

We will probably see the same from this Indian team next year. A level of desperation and hunger that we have big witnessed over the past few tournaments.

The 2000s generation pulled it off in 2011. Let’s see what the 2010s generation does.

Kohli will be a dangerous player at home in 2023. Rohit doesn't have the same reflexes any more, Ashwin is too lazy. KL Rahul will probably be dropped and Jadeja will play if fit.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

India deserved to win the following:

2012 T20 World Cup
2014 T20 World Cup
2016 T20 World Cup
2017 Champions Trophy
2021 T20 World Cup

Both India and England deserved to win the 2017 Champions Trophy, but since England lost the semifinal to Pakistan, India should have won the final.

So India should have won at least five more tournaments post 2010.

India post 2010 have established themselves as the GOAT Asian Test team and third only to Australia and West Indies in history.

Had they won 2-3 more Limited Overs trophies in this period, they would have also established themselves as the third best Limited Overs side ever after Australia and West Indies.

So I agree with Vaughan - they have underachieved big time.

Did you ever watch that Simpsons episode were Homer started mocking Marge? This post reminds me of that.

[video]https://y.yarn.co/fcf547b1-69ce-4f63-811f-f0a33409cf92.mp4[/video]

 

[ElRaja]

Then what about South Africa and New Zealand?

India still have won more ICC trophies(5 in LOIs) than England so not sure what bell is Vaughan ringing here.

new Zealand have a population smaller than London, and cricket is not even their main sport. they are chokers but not underachievers, they are spectacular overachievers to even be in the position to choke as consistently as they do.

 

[Kriketer]

India deserved to win the following:

2012 T20 World Cup
2014 T20 World Cup
2016 T20 World Cup
2017 Champions Trophy
2021 T20 World Cup

Both India and England deserved to win the 2017 Champions Trophy, but since England lost the semifinal to Pakistan, India should have won the final.

So India should have won at least five more tournaments post 2010.

India post 2010 have established themselves as the GOAT Asian Test team and third only to Australia and West Indies in history.

Had they won 2-3 more Limited Overs trophies in this period, they would have also established themselves as the third best Limited Overs side ever after Australia and West Indies.

So I agree with Vaughan - they have underachieved big time.

Should have, could have, would have don't win you games. IPL has terribly failed to unearth Indian talent and the type of talent which delivers under pressure, hence the reason why it is such an average league.

Big money and a lot of halla gulla doesn't create talent (not yet a proper express paceman - a big joke for IPL). If you keep choking at world stage then you simply aren't good enough. All those bilaterals mean nothing if you can't translate them at big stage like world cups.

Vaughan is politely having a dig at IPL and rightfully so. I can tell he would like to be a lot more honest but can't be, just like many other cricket pundits would like to but they just don't want to deal with the cr@p of trolls that wikl follow when you show Indian team its true face and when you show IPL its true useless worth.

 

[Ab Fan]

new Zealand have a population smaller than London, and cricket is not even their main sport. they are chokers but not underachievers, they are spectacular overachievers to even be in the position to choke as consistently as they do.

Population doesn't matter. But yes they are overachievers in this format because they don't have the resources and talent like the Big 3 or Pakistan have.

 

[Ahmed216]

India deserved to win the following:

2012 T20 World Cup
2014 T20 World Cup
2016 T20 World Cup
2017 Champions Trophy
2021 T20 World Cup

Both India and England deserved to win the 2017 Champions Trophy, but since England lost the semifinal to Pakistan, India should have won the final.

So India should have won at least five more tournaments post 2010.

India post 2010 have established themselves as the GOAT Asian Test team and third only to Australia and West Indies in history.

Had they won 2-3 more Limited Overs trophies in this period, they would have also established themselves as the third best Limited Overs side ever after Australia and West Indies.

So I agree with Vaughan - they have underachieved big time.

India is the least talented cricketing nation. With all the money and infrastructure they can’t win anything. It’s due to lack of talent. Indian bowling was club level in world cup

 

[in_cutter]

India deserved to win the following:

2012 T20 World Cup
2014 T20 World Cup
2016 T20 World Cup
2017 Champions Trophy
2021 T20 World Cup

Both India and England deserved to win the 2017 Champions Trophy, but since England lost the semifinal to Pakistan, India should have won the final.

So India should have won at least five more tournaments post 2010.

India post 2010 have established themselves as the GOAT Asian Test team and third only to Australia and West Indies in history.

Had they won 2-3 more Limited Overs trophies in this period, they would have also established themselves as the third best Limited Overs side ever after Australia and West Indies.

So I agree with Vaughan - they have underachieved big time.

Should have, would have, could have. At the end of day, they couldn’t because they were simply not good enough.

 

[Kianig89]

Pakistan also has underachieved in T20s

Pak should have won 2007 WC
Pak should have won 2010 WC
Pak should have won 2012 WC
Pak should have won 2021 WC

That would have been 5WC to Pakistan,
Just like Vaughan while writing this post failed to remember that other teams were also there to compete and it was World Cup not Wishful Cup

 

[in_cutter]

The 2023 World Cup will be for Kohli, Rohit, Rahul, Ashwin, Jadeja etc. what the 2011 World Cup was for Tendulkar, Sehwag, Gambhir, Zaheer, Harbhajan etc.

The last dance. The last shot at winning a World Cup. A billion fans behind them. Home turf.

There was a lot of desperation among the Indian players and all of them were giving their 110% at every moment and going the extra mile.

We will probably see the same from this Indian team next year. A level of desperation and hunger that we have big witnessed over the past few tournaments.

The 2000s generation pulled it off in 2011. Let’s see what the 2010s generation does.

Lol @ India gave 110%. They looked like timid kittens vs Eng.

 

[gazza619]

The 2023 World Cup will be for Kohli, Rohit, Rahul, Ashwin, Jadeja etc. what the 2011 World Cup was for Tendulkar, Sehwag, Gambhir, Zaheer, Harbhajan etc.

The last dance. The last shot at winning a World Cup. A billion fans behind them. Home turf.

There was a lot of desperation among the Indian players and all of them were giving their 110% at every moment and going the extra mile.

We will probably see the same from this Indian team next year. A level of desperation and hunger that we have big witnessed over the past few tournaments.

The 2000s generation pulled it off in 2011. Let’s see what the 2010s generation does.

There is absolutely zero chance of India winning next year.

Many international teams (barring Pakistan) are beast at playing T20 in India thanks to IPL and bilateral tours.

 

[samiakh]

India deserved to win the following:

2012 T20 World Cup
2014 T20 World Cup
2016 T20 World Cup
2017 Champions Trophy
2021 T20 World Cup

Both India and England deserved to win the 2017 Champions Trophy, but since England lost the semifinal to Pakistan, India should have won the final.

So India should have won at least five more tournaments post 2010.

India post 2010 have established themselves as the GOAT Asian Test team and third only to Australia and West Indies in history.

Had they won 2-3 more Limited Overs trophies in this period, they would have also established themselves as the third best Limited Overs side ever after Australia and West Indies.

So I agree with Vaughan - they have underachieved big time.

There is no such thing as “deserving” to win anything in sport. You get what you deserve, India have not been good enough it’s as simple as that.

 

[Mamoon]

Lol @ India gave 110%. They looked like timid kittens vs Eng.

You misunderstood. I was referring to India in the 2011 World Cup.

 

[Mamoon]

There is absolutely zero chance of India winning next year.

Many international teams (barring Pakistan) are beast at playing T20 in India thanks to IPL and bilateral tours.

It is an ODI World Cup. A lot of things will be different.

ODI cricket is still a completely different format than T20Is in spite of the increased scoring rates over the past decade. This is why I hope the format continues to survive.

 

[Mamoon]

India is the least talented cricketing nation. With all the money and infrastructure they can’t win anything. It’s due to lack of talent. Indian bowling was club level in world cup

That title belongs to Pakistan. It takes out of this world talent to maintain a 100% losing record in Test cricket in a country after 13 Tests over almost two decades.

Even law of averages has surrendered against the lack of talent that Pakistan has shown on Australian soil in Test cricket.

 

[DeadlyVenom]

India also deserve to win the ashes, the chappel hadlee cup and the football world cup.

 

[jnaveen1980]

Apart from Australia during 2000s No team has dominated any trophy. Everybody is in the same boat. Because it comes down to how you play on a specific day. Unless a team is winning 100% all the matches all the time and losing it only in world cup you cannot say you can dominate that too an ultra short format like this. India may have underachieved in the one dayers. But in T20Is anything goes. Look at West Indies. Despite having so many mercenaries couldn't even qualify. Nigeria beat Srilanka. Not long ago srilanka trounced Pakistan (twice) and India. India losing to England should never been a shocking thing. Did Vaughan expect India to beat Engalnd. They might as well have had India batted second against that bowling. He would have been singing a different tune.

 

[Mamoon]

There is no such thing as “deserving” to win anything in sport. You get what you deserve, India have not been good enough it’s as simple as that.

No, you don’t always get what you deserve. For example, Pakistan did not deserve the stroke of luck on November 6 when South Africa lost to Netherlands.

A team that fails to chase 131 against Zimbabwe under lights did not deserve to qualify for the semifinals.

 

[JaDed]

TBF he has praised Indian talent and system, his criticism is on the strategy and gameplans.

 

[Technics 1210]

India also failed to win the ICC WTC trophy in 2021. The GOAT Asian Test team? This is the sort of bluff and bluster that leads to top level criticism and ridicule of India when they fail.

As for 2011 WC, India were lucky to get into the final thanks to Mohali Misbah Tuk Tuk, and another Misbah error also handed India the 2007 T20 WC.

India's 1st CT trophy was shared due to rain. The second CT trophy was also due to the help of rain.

India has been nothing but lucky with ICC trophies.

MV is spot on, India is indeed the most under-performing white-ball team in history, because India relies more on luck, than skill.

 

[JaDed]

India also failed to win the ICC WTC trophy in 2021. The GOAT Asian Test team? This is the sort of bluff and bluster that leads to top level criticism and ridicule of India when they fail.

As for 2011 WC, India were lucky to get into the final thanks to Mohali Misbah Tuk Tuk, and another Misbah error also handed India the 2007 T20 WC.

India's 1st CT trophy was shared due to rain. The second CT trophy was also due to the help of rain.

India has been nothing but lucky with ICC trophies.

MV is spot on, India is indeed the most under-performing white-ball team in history, because India relies more on luck, than skill.

So you are saying we fluked 4 ICC trophies in last 20 years?

 

[Technics 1210]

So you are saying we fluked 4 ICC trophies in last 20 years?

Yup.

2 x ICC trophies due to Misbah.

2 x ICC trophies due to rain.



Without luck:

2 x 10 Wicket defeats in WCs by Pakistan and England. With a gap year.

 

[JaDed]

Yup.

2 x ICC trophies due to Misbah.

2 x ICC trophies due to rain.



Without luck:

2 x 10 Wicket defeats in WCs by Pakistan and England. With a gap year.

No wonder it's hard to take some of the posts on this form seriously, on another thread a Pakistani posters claims 1983 was fluke and here you are with other 4 being fluke lol, if an Indian posters was to take posts seriously here he might as well start believing in unicorns.

 

[Ahmed216]

That title belongs to Pakistan. It takes out of this world talent to maintain a 100% losing record in Test cricket in a country after 13 Tests over almost two decades.

Even law of averages has surrendered against the lack of talent that Pakistan has shown on Australian soil in Test cricket.

Forgot to mention the huge population which breathes and lives cricket. It has got to be lack of talent. The title surely belongs to India.
1.3 billion cricket crazy people end up in tears after every major tournament.
Indian cricketers are the biggest cons in sporting history.

 

[Technics 1210]

No wonder it's hard to take some of the posts on this form seriously, on another thread a Pakistani posters claims 1983 was fluke and here you are with other 4 being fluke lol, if an Indian posters was to take posts seriously here he might as well start believing in unicorns.

Save it, you have someone in this thread calling Pakistan's ICC wins a fluke and you do not say a thing. Save the unbiased symphony.

1 more for Indian fans, without luck, India failed to beat NZ in TWO DAYS during the 2019 WC Semi Final.

Under-performance is an overstatement.

 

[Mamoon]

India also failed to win the ICC WTC trophy in 2021. The GOAT Asian Test team? This is the sort of bluff and bluster that leads to top level criticism and ridicule of India when they fail.

As for 2011 WC, India were lucky to get into the final thanks to Mohali Misbah Tuk Tuk, and another Misbah error also handed India the 2007 T20 WC.

India's 1st CT trophy was shared due to rain. The second CT trophy was also due to the help of rain.

India has been nothing but lucky with ICC trophies.

MV is spot on, India is indeed the most under-performing white-ball team in history, because India relies more on luck, than skill.

Every team in every sport needs some degree of luck and favorable circumstances to win tournaments.

You need certain things to go your way. There will always be what if moments and 50-50 situations that could have gone the other way on another day.

Even the great Australian side needed plenty of fortune in 1999 and 2003 to win the World Cups.

India could have had less trophies but they could have easily had more too, the luck that favored them in 2007, 2011 and 2013 deserted them in 2016, 2017 and 2019 so it evens out.

Overall, they definitely have underachieved in tournaments though. No doubt about that.

As far as GOAT Asian team is concerned, it has nothing to do with the WTC 2021. They already well clear of other great Asian sides of the past because they have achieved more than them and no other side has a stronger claim.

Winning the WTC Final would have been an icing on top and only increased the gap between them and the next best Asian team in history.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

You can't win tournaments without good bowling attacks, and India's bowling attacks over the years have been mediocre and one-dimensional...even after the rise to prominence of someone like Bumrah. More often than not, their bowling attack comprises of bowlers that feel too similar, i.e. right-arm pace in the early to mid 130s. There is little to no variety in their attack. And when you look back at the 2017 CT Final, the 2016 WT20 SF, the 2015 WC SF or even this year's WT20 SF, its their bowling that has let them down time and time again.

I think Indian fans need to ask themselves why is it that in a country of 1.2 billion+ people, the fastest bowler they could find was a glorified street-cricketer who would struggle to land 3 consecutive balls in the same area on a good day?

 

[Technics 1210]

Every team in every sport needs some degree of luck and favorable circumstances to win tournaments.

You need certain things to go your way. There will always be what if moments and 50-50 situations that could have gone the other way on another day.

Even the great Australian side needed plenty of fortune in 1999 and 2003 to win the World Cups.

India could have had less trophies but they could have easily had more too, the luck that favored them in 2007, 2011 and 2013 deserted them in 2016, 2017 and 2019 so it evens out.

Overall, they definitely have underachieved in tournaments though. No doubt about that.

As far as GOAT Asian team is concerned, it has nothing to do with the WTC 2021. They already well clear of other great Asian sides of the past because they have achieved more than them and no other side has a stronger claim.

Winning the WTC Final would have been an icing on top and only increased the gap between them and the next best Asian team in history.

So you agree luck favoured India in 2007, 2011, and 2013 (and 2002), but when luck favours Pakistan, it's a fluke, undeserved win?

 

[Champ_Pal]

India did not underperform. They performed according to their talent.

India has the batting and just enough bowling to take them to semis in most tournaments. But when it comes to playing against strong oppositions, their lack of depth in batting and mediocre bowling gets exposed more. When the opposition goes on offensive, they do not have the bowlers to take wickets. Absence of Bumrah in bowling and Jadeja in batting did not help either.

India were too boneheaded in their team selection. They try to keep the same team for ODI's and T20's. Even their Test match team is almost the same for the most part. If you look at England, their LOI and Test teams are vastly different. Even England's ODI and T20 teams are different too.

Playing the same group of Rohit/KL/Virat/Pant/Ashwin/Shami/Axar/Bumrah is not going to win India tournaments.

 

[Mamoon]

So you agree luck favoured India in 2007, 2011, and 2013 (and 2002), but when luck favours Pakistan, it's a fluke, undeserved win?

Luck has favored every winning team in history. Even the strong teams need luck.

Pakistan’s 2009 WT20 win had some luck factor too but it was not a fluke because Pakistan, from 2007 to 2010 was a top team in the format.

If there was a T20I World Cup every three months during those three years, I would bet that Pakistan would find itself in final more than half of the time.

However, in comparison, the 2017 Champions Trophy was a complete fluke. That Pakistan ODI team was bang average and lost series home and away to the big sides left, right and center, but everything came together over three-four games and they ran away with it.

It is not just Pakistan though, India’s win in 1983 and West Indies’ Champions Trophy triumph in 2004 were also fluke results.

 

[shujaatraza]

India deserved to win the following:

2012 T20 World Cup
2014 T20 World Cup
2016 T20 World Cup
2017 Champions Trophy
2021 T20 World Cup

Both India and England deserved to win the 2017 Champions Trophy, but since England lost the semifinal to Pakistan, India should have won the final.

So India should have won at least five more tournaments post 2010.

India post 2010 have established themselves as the GOAT Asian Test team and third only to Australia and West Indies in history.

Had they won 2-3 more Limited Overs trophies in this period, they would have also established themselves as the third best Limited Overs side ever after Australia and West Indies.

So I agree with Vaughan - they have underachieved big time.

There is a difference between ‘deserved to win’ and ‘should have won’. India should have won these tournaments as they went in as favourites but no way they deserved to win it on the basis of their performances.

 

[Technics 1210]

Luck has favored every winning team in history. Even the strong teams need luck.

Pakistan’s 2009 WT20 win had some luck factor too but it was not a fluke because Pakistan, from 2007 to 2010 was a top team in the format.

If there was a T20I World Cup every three months during those three years, I would bet that Pakistan would find itself in final more than half of the time.

However, in comparison, the 2017 Champions Trophy was a complete fluke. That Pakistan ODI team was bang average and lost series home and away to the big sides left, right and center, but everything came together over three-four games and they ran away with it.

It is not just Pakistan though, India’s win in 1983 and West Indies’ Champions Trophy triumph in 2004 were also fluke results.

Well, Pakistan have reached the Semi Final stage of the T20 WC - Six times. The most by any team. 1 Win, 1 Runner Up, and 3 eliminations, and then Sunday's outcome. Since there have only been 8 WT20 tournaments, that's 75% of the time.



As for CT 2017, Winning 1 game can be considered a fluke, but winning 4 games on the trot, inc beating England in the SF, and of course India in the final, is not a fluke.

4 is the same number of games India won on the trot in 2011 to lift the WC by beating West Indies, Australia, Pakistan, and then Sri Lanka.

 

[sweep_shot]

India have regressed a lot in LOIs.

They were pretty good when Dhoni was playing. Things went downhill after Dhoni departed.

 

[James]

<b>India’s post-mortem: What went wrong for Rohit Sharma’s side</b>

India were left reeling by a ten-wicket defeat to England in the ICC Men’s T20 World Cup semi-final.

Big games of T20 international cricket often hinge on individual brilliance, and the two best performances of the semi-final came from England’s openers.

When two batters of the calibre of Jos Buttler and Alex Hales get going it’s hard for any team to stop.

And yet their record stand shouldn’t prevent India from reflecting on how their own display contributed to the nature of the loss.

A total of 168/6 in a World Cup semi-final is a competitive score. But it’s not a great one, particularly not on a decent batting surface like the Adelaide Oval and against a team with the firepower of England.

The fact that the total was a par score of 168 even with power-hitter Hardik Pandya producing fireworks with a brilliant 63 from 33 balls at the death, suggests that there was a problem of intent.

Whether that problem is a case of underperforming on the day or one of long-running selection errors is up for debate.

The stark contrast in the game came during the respective Powerplays, where the difference in intent couldn’t have been clearer.

Losing KL Rahul for five early on was a setback, but even so, India went at only fractionally over a run-a-ball during that period of fielding restrictions, with neither Virat Kohli nor Rohit Sharma finding fluency as they reached 38/1 after six.

To have one anchor in the top three is fine, and perhaps a good plan in such a big game. To have two gave a weakened England bowling attack confidence.

England’s openers approached things completely differently, attacking from the off to get their side ahead of the game, scoring at more than ten-an-over throughout the Powerplay.

The struggles with the bat put India in difficulty.

And yet the total was sufficiently high that some early breakthroughs would have placed England under big pressure.

But those breakthroughs didn’t come, and the captain pointed his finger primarily at a lack of execution from the bowlers.

"The way we started with the ball was not ideal. We were a little nervy. When Bhuvi bowled the first over it swung today, but not from the right areas.

"We wanted to keep it tight, not give room, because square of the wicket was an area we were aware of - that's where the runs came today.

"If we keep it tight and the batsman still score runs, we'll take it. But we didn't do that today."

Taking wickets in the powerplay through the movement of Arshdeep Singh and Bhuvneshwar Kumar has been India’s Plan A during the tournament, using spin and bowling into the pitch to soak up the middle overs and then executing plans at the death.

It’s a decent strategy and strikingly similar to that of semi-final opponents England. But when early wickets don’t come, both attacks can look a little toothless at times.

That was certainly the case for India on Thursday, with the absence of the injured Jasprit Bumrah keenly felt. When India needed a cutting edge there didn’t seem to be a banker of an option that the captain could turn to.

That sensation is reflected in the numbers.

Four of India’s bowlers went at more than ten-an-over – Kumar, Mohammed Shami, Ravichandran Ashwin and Pandya – with Axar Patel being milked for 30 harmless runs from his four overs and Arshdeep also failing to keep it tight.

https://www.t20worldcup.com/news/2901163

 

[IMMY69]

Those that speak of luck and India's ICC Tournament victories as opposed to Pakistan's, well then let's not forget 1987.... poor umpiring cost us a place in the final and most will pundits will agree that Pakistan was the form side in that tournament.

But those are silly arguments.
The facts are Vaughn is right and is only echoing what many of us have been saying here.

 

[jnaveen1980]

India have regressed a lot in LOIs.

They were pretty good when Dhoni was playing. Things went downhill after Dhoni departed.

Transition time. Many are very old. DK made debut before MS Dhoni. Let that sink in. Rohit made debut in 2007. Kohli 2008. Time for all these guys to hang their boots in LOIs and leave way to young talents. Indian B team is much stronger than current INdian side. In a crunch game India B team beat main team any day.

 

[Adnan_Ilyas]

I don't think its luck that Pakistan scored 338 against India. If you being up Bunrahs no ball then that's on him.

 

[wrongun]

Second only to Australia. Apart from Atherton these nondescript English ex players turned pundits are fairly clueless and I really pity anyone who pays for their juvenile analysis. Nasser Hussain went on to say that it's mindset that is hurting India. Guy has seen England's team become successful right under his nose for the last 7 years and still can't make out what makes a successful T20 side.

Atherton is a top drawer thinker in my view. He was a decent player- but what does being a great player have to do with being a great thinker? (Gavaskar is eloquent, Kapil is not a great mind, the two talents are unconnected) The attack is ad hominem at any rate.

Instead of playing the man, perhaps out line some points you disagree with and offer a counter position.

 

[Kriketer]

No, you don’t always get what you deserve. For example, Pakistan did not deserve the stroke of luck on November 6 when South Africa lost to Netherlands.

A team that fails to chase 131 against Zimbabwe under lights did not deserve to qualify for the semifinals.

Netherland, Zimbabwe, Ireland, Namibia all won their bit share and they are there to win games as well. It's better than being a minnow basher like India who beat minnows by thrashing them and then turn into big time minnows themselves in do and die games. This England defeat is the most humiliating one in the history of T20 or actually in any format of cricket's penultimate games.

Pakistan just plays exciting cricket and could be inconsistent so loses like Zimbabwe aren't a surprise. Despite being down and out early after 2 loses and you went over the moon in excitment and were quick to send them to the airport, they are now in the final and they have left naysayers like you to simply cry over it. Have the humble pie and relax a little, this loss will obviously take time for your types to get over. There will be many more in the future, get used to it.

 

[PakLFC]

Vaughan defo knows how to get under the skin of Indian people. He's right as well.

 

[Nikhil_cric]

Atherton is a top drawer thinker in my view. He was a decent player- but what does being a great player have to do with being a great thinker? (Gavaskar is eloquent, Kapil is not a great mind, the two talents are unconnected) The attack is ad hominem at any rate.

Instead of playing the man, perhaps out line some points you disagree with and offer a counter position.

Nasser Hussain on Sky has consistently implied that India are chokers in ICC tournaments. Despite there being scant evidence that India have anywhere near the strength of yop white ball sides.

I have offered many counter points on this forum. A team without a high class wrist spinner, no high pace option and no left handed batters up the order cannot be considered favourites .

No serious professional analyst - including Cricviz who Nasser and Sky rely heavily on rated India as a top side. In fact Ben Jones of Cricviz predicted a group stage knockout for India.

Many other respected analysts didn't rate India higher than #3. These are guys who help construct squads for professional T20 teams in various leagues.

When you have access to such professional analytics and still can't fathom what makes a successful T20 side , then you're being a disingenuous troll or you're not competent enough. I stand by what I said . If Brits are paying a lot of quid for such analysis , I feel sorry for them. A few internet searches will give you much more for literally nothing.

 

[the Great Khan]

A boring cricket team who play a brand of boring cricket. The only thing the world gets excited about when you say Indian cricket is money.

Boring..end of..

 

[Robert]

What about England until they started to poach players from Ireland, South Africa, Zimbabwe and the Caribbean?

Strange comment given that Ranji and Duleep played for England 100+ years ago.

 

[Majestic]

India stopped winning after 2014. If you Know, you know.

KL Rahul debuted in 2014.

 

[pakfan54588]

May be after the retirement of kohli ,sharma, india will turn the table in limited over cricket .There are just hanging on past reputation and are no way near there best

 

[MenInG]

India's stand-in captain for the New Zealand series, Hardik Pandya, gave a classy response to former England captain Michael Vaughan, who criticised Team India's approach in white-ball cricket, calling them the 'biggest underperforming' team in the history of world cricket. Vaughan's comments came after India were knocked out from the semi-final of the T20 World Cup after suffering a confidence-denting 10-wicket defeat to eventual champions England. "India are the most underperforming white-ball team in history.

I am just staggered by how they play T20 cricket for the talent they have. They have the players, but just do not have the right process in place. They have to go for it. Why do they give the opposition bowlers the first five overs to bed in?" Vaughan wrote in his column for the Daily Telegraph slamming India's top-order for scoring at just about 6 runs per over in the powerplay. Among all the participating teams in this T20 World Cup, only UAE had a worse run rate than India in the powerplay.

Hardik, who is slated to lead India in the three-match T20I series against New Zealand - India's first assignment after the World Cup - starting November 18, was asked about Vaughan's remarks and the all-rounder said they don't need to prove to anyone but there is definite room for improvement. "Obviously when you don't do well, people will have their opinion, which we respect. I understand people have different points of view. Being at the international level, I don't think we need to prove anything to anyone. It's a sport, you keep trying to get better and eventually when the result is supposed to happen it will happen. There are things we need to work on, going forward we will rectify and work on it," Hardik said on Wednesday.

"There is a disappointment of the T20 World Cup, but we are professionals. We need to cope with it the way we cope with our success and move forward, look to get better and rectify the mistakes we made," he added.

Regular captain Rohit Sharma, vice-captain KL Rahul and talisman Virat Kohli have been rested from the New Zealand tour. Many believe that the transition phase of the Indian team has already begun, especially in the shortest format of the game.

"Main boys are not here but the talent we have... The players who are already here, have been playing for India for one and a half two years now so they have had enough time in international cricket to express themselves. very excited for them, new guys, new bunch, new energy, so it's gonna be quite exciting," Hardik, who was one of India's top performers with both bat and ball and was also named as the 12th man in ICC's team of the tournament, said.

The likes of Shubman Gill, Ishan Kishan, Rishabh Pant, Sanju Samson, and Deepak Hooda are likely to get an opportunity in these matches against New Zealand.

"The next T20 World Cup will be in two years if I'm not wrong so we have time. Till then, a lot of cricket will be played, a lot of people will have enough chances. The roadmap starts now but it's quick (to make any comments). We'll sit down and start having those conversations. Right now, it's about letting the boys enjoy it, it's a beautiful country to play cricket, we'll talk about the future later," Hardik said.

https://www.hindustantimes.com/cric...gest-underpermers-remark-101668570288943.html

 

[MenInG]

With the T20 World Cup 2022 now over, the focus shifts to the 2023 ODI World Cup which takes place in India next year. These are still early days but there are a few who suggest the Indian cricket team will be the favourites to go all the way as they will be playing at home in familiar conditions. Former England captain Michael Vaughan, however, isn't happy with this perception. Having seen England do wonders in Australia at the T20 World Cup, he feels Jos Buttler's men will head into the 50-over World Cup as the favourites.

The Indian team was considered among the favourites to go the distance in the T20 World Cup as well but they were hammered by England in the semi-finals. India's 10-wicket defeat was an eye-opener for many. Vaughan, in his column for the Telegraph, wrote that England will be the team to beat next year in the ODI World Cup.

"The next big ticket is to win the 50 over World Cup in India next year. They have good spin options and you have to put them down as favourites for that tournament as well. When the tournament starts people will have India as favourites on home soil. Utter nonsense. England will be the team to beat without any question and that is going to be the case for a few more years to come," he wrote in the column.

Vaughan also argued that the Board of Control for Cricket in India (BCCI) should be looking at the England model if they want to succeed as a cricketing nation and win major titles again.

"If I was running Indian cricket I would swallow my pride and look at England for inspiration.

"What English cricket has to make sure now is we are at the forefront of white-ball cricket for years. Young players are now coming into a group that has won so much that it should feed down the system. At the top of it all is Jos Buttler, World Cup-winning captain at the first attempt. That is huge for him," he has also written in the column.

NDTV

 

[Aseem_04]

What about England until they started to poach players from Ireland, South Africa, Zimbabwe and the Caribbean?

New Zealand also in list, Greatest player of this english team is from new zealand, They assembled player from everywhere because English never were competent enough to win a trophy after decades of humiliation.

 

[Aseem_04]

You are right these modi and shah is big panoti since their arrival we haven't won anything in Loi cricket though our team 2014-2021 Was the best Loi unit

 

[Aseem_04]

Our cringe Media before semifinal KYa Modi india Ko trophy Jitake layenge?
2. Modi laayenge trophy

While pakistani media since Qudarat ka nizam entry in semifinal and courtesy of Netherlands aswell, everywhere
1992 Vibes
1992 vibes
1992 vibes

Lol

 

[jnaveen1980]

Everyone knows where things went wrong. Vaughan doesn't really have to tell. If Indian management handled the same English side. They would be playing out of form Jason Roy at the top. Not Alex hales. Rashid probably will be sitting outside and Moeen will bowl 4 overs. Mark wood have been left out of the squad.

 

[Aseem_04]

Since 2017 To 2022 India never lost a t20 series against England they smashed them home and away ,Almost indian have beaten everyone home and away but it's not like other team brings their second string team against india ,They always put their best 11 So vaughan is quite right indian team was immensely talented but there was something wrong in their planning or selection when it comes to wc but he shouldn't tell ys follow the england template , What's england template? Bring players from New zealand,south africa ,Africa, South asian and they are the one who won world cup for england, English had never in them to win so india should pick also pick from whole globe is it the template?

 

[MenInG]

Could all this change in the Asia Cup and the World Cup in 2023?

 

[ElRaja]

anything is possible, but given how the bcci runs the global game anything less than a world cup win would continue the trend of under achievement.

id say they are second favs behind england, but even being runners up would be a loss for them given this world cup is the culmination of the last decade and a bit they have consolidated their control over the global game.

 

[Devadwal]

No chance as this Indian team is struggling big time ahead of WC , injury of KL Rahul, Iyer and Bumrah make its wrost

 

[Devadwal]

Rohit
Gill
Virat
Rahul (Wk)
Iyer/ Sky
Pandya
Jadeja
Kuldeep
Shami/ Shardul
Siraj
Bumrah

 

[Bhaijaan]

2013-2019 - Yes. We had world class team that should have won another trophy.

Post 2019, we are clearly not the best white ball team in the world and are performing to the best of our limited ability.

 

[Devadwal]

2013-2019 - Yes. We had world class team that should have won another trophy.

Post 2019, we are clearly not the best white ball team in the world and are performing to the best of our limited ability.

2014 and 2016 T20 world cup and 2017 CT we choked

 

[Champ_Pal]

Indian team was good only between 2003-2012. Prior to 2003, Indian team was a joke and since 2013, there is a steady decline in the team. India could not solve the 5th bowler problem and were forced to play bits and pieces players or good for nothing bowlers.

India could not find a single world class bowler who could score 20 runs when the team gets in trouble. Once India are 5 down, it’s game over for them. Even now, the situation is the same.

 

[MenInG]

Consistency seems to be missing in this team.

 

[gazza619]

Consistency seems to be missing in this team.

talent is also missing, considering all the hoo-ha around IPL