India builds detention camps for up to 1.9m people ‘stripped of citizenship’ in Assam

[Abdullah719]

No papers, no rights: how Modi plans to oust millions of ‘foreigners’ who have lived in India all their lives

In a remote district of northeast India, 30ft-high walls and watchtowers are rising from the open countryside as workmen pour concrete over a vast expanse and stab girders into the mud.

Hidden from the eyes of the world, these men are building a colossal detention centre, the first of ten planned for the impoverished, tea-growing state of Assam. Thousands of people could be sent here, with little hope of leaving, in one of the biggest exercises in forced statelessness ever attempted.

The project has been shrouded in secrecy, but The Times has visited the site of the new detention centre, in Goalpara district, which will have capacity for 3,000 inmates when completed, and could expand further.

Assam has applied to build nine more such centres, raising fears of mass arrests, disenfranchisement and deportation. The state will soon publish a new National Register of Citizens (NRC), the culmination of a four-year scheme to root out illegal immigrants by forcing residents to prove Indian citizenship.

Rights groups have accused the Hindu nationalist government of Narendra Modi of targeting Assam’s large population of Bengali people, and exploiting tensions to advance its grand vision to recast secular India as a Hindu religious state.

Full article at https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/...have-lived-in-india-all-their-lives-qfsvk5750

 

[Majestic_Inzi]

No papers, no rights: how Modi plans to oust millions of ‘foreigners’ who have lived in India all their lives

In a remote district of northeast India, 30ft-high walls and watchtowers are rising from the open countryside as workmen pour concrete over a vast expanse and stab girders into the mud.

Hidden from the eyes of the world, these men are building a colossal detention centre, the first of ten planned for the impoverished, tea-growing state of Assam. Thousands of people could be sent here, with little hope of leaving, in one of the biggest exercises in forced statelessness ever attempted.

The project has been shrouded in secrecy, but The Times has visited the site of the new detention centre, in Goalpara district, which will have capacity for 3,000 inmates when completed, and could expand further.

Assam has applied to build nine more such centres, raising fears of mass arrests, disenfranchisement and deportation. The state will soon publish a new National Register of Citizens (NRC), the culmination of a four-year scheme to root out illegal immigrants by forcing residents to prove Indian citizenship.

Rights groups have accused the Hindu nationalist government of Narendra Modi of targeting Assam’s large population of Bengali people, and exploiting tensions to advance its grand vision to recast secular India as a Hindu religious state.

Full article at https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/...have-lived-in-india-all-their-lives-qfsvk5750

what is bangladesh doing?

again India is following what israel is doing, they are placing black jews in these camps.

 

[Abdullah719]

what is bangladesh doing?

again India is following what israel is doing, they are placing black jews in these camps.

Under Mr Modi the BJP has revived the plan, though Bangladesh, already struggling with the Rohingya crisis, insists it will not accept millions more refugee families from India. If they cannot be deported, millions could languish in jail indefinitely, left stateless.

 

[Majestic_Inzi]

india are causing a problem for themselves, what are they going to do, building camps and put bengalis in their, what has happened to india what a disgraceful country it has become.

Copying Israel tactics it will backfire, india does not have evangelical support or aipac support.

 

[sweep_shot]

I don't know why my fellow Bangladeshis migrate to India illegally. It is not like India is a first world country.

I cannot feel sorry if they get jailed or killed in India. They shouldn't have gone in the first place.

 

[Itachi]

No papers, no rights: how Modi plans to oust millions of ‘foreigners’ who have lived in India all their lives

In a remote district of northeast India, 30ft-high walls and watchtowers are rising from the open countryside as workmen pour concrete over a vast expanse and stab girders into the mud.

Hidden from the eyes of the world, these men are building a colossal detention centre, the first of ten planned for the impoverished, tea-growing state of Assam. Thousands of people could be sent here, with little hope of leaving, in one of the biggest exercises in forced statelessness ever attempted.

The project has been shrouded in secrecy, but The Times has visited the site of the new detention centre, in Goalpara district, which will have capacity for 3,000 inmates when completed, and could expand further.

Assam has applied to build nine more such centres, raising fears of mass arrests, disenfranchisement and deportation. The state will soon publish a new National Register of Citizens (NRC), the culmination of a four-year scheme to root out illegal immigrants by forcing residents to prove Indian citizenship.

Rights groups have accused the Hindu nationalist government of Narendra Modi of targeting Assam’s large population of Bengali people, and exploiting tensions to advance its grand vision to recast secular India as a Hindu religious state.

Full article at https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/...have-lived-in-india-all-their-lives-qfsvk5750

Modi has no control over NRC. It is done under the supervision of supreme court.

 

[Hitman]

india are causing a problem for themselves, what are they going to do, building camps and put bengalis in their, what has happened to india what a disgraceful country it has become.

Copying Israel tactics it will backfire, india does not have evangelical support or aipac support.

Yea, we are an open heaven for illegal immigrants from Bangladesh, right?

What happens when someone illegally remains in the UK or US? Do their Governments reward them with permanent residency or are they deported?

 

[cricketjoshila]

india are causing a problem for themselves, what are they going to do, building camps and put bengalis in their, what has happened to india what a disgraceful country it has become.

Copying Israel tactics it will backfire, india does not have evangelical support or aipac support.

Illegal immigrants are not welcome here.

 

[Hitman]

Illegal immigrants are not welcome here.

What type of dimwits would blame India for trying to deport illegal immigrants?

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Yea, we are an open heaven for illegal immigrants from Bangladesh, right?

What happens when someone illegally remains in the UK or US? Do their Governments reward them with permanent residency or are they deported?

I don't think we build camps for illegal immigrants yet, but perhaps that day is not far off. I would agree that the general British public would probably describe Indian immigrants as termites as well, but they would do it privately. The illegal ones obviously.

 

[MenInG]

Illegal immigrants are not welcome here.

Wonder if we speak like that in open about anyone? Termites?

 

[AdamM97]

India has the right to deport illegal immigrants all they want but it’s Amit Shah calling Bangladeshis ’termites’ that’s disturbing.

Tbh, i’m in support of Pakistan deporting illegal Afghan refugees back as well for security reasons.

 

[cricketjoshila]

Wonder if we speak like that in open about anyone? Termites?

And why not?

These immigrants have no right to be in India. They are leaching off our resources.

My city had one of the best infrastructures in south asia till the 70s, when hoards of bangladeshis arrived and settled on any patch of land they could get. The city has not been the same since and detoriating everyday.

You can find these illegal immigrants living and expanding their families on footpaths, under flyovers, taking over empty govt lands, playgrounds etc etc.

There has been a huge rise in crime in kolkata in last decade or so and bangladeshi immigrants have been found to be involved in many of them.

 

[Romali_rotti]

Mamta Banerjee is the real problem in Bengal, however her time is numbered, BJP is not far off from being in full control. First thing to do is lock her up for treason,, soon Mamta, soon you will be a past memory...

 

[Itachi]

Wonder if we speak like that in open about anyone? Termites?

Considering the struggle that the state has went through decades, its time we take strict actions. Lots of lives were lost for this issue in 1980s and 1990s. Finally NRC gives a permanent solution to the decade old problem.

Open or not, these people have put much pressure on the economy and socio political ways. This time, it will be over.

 

[cricketjoshila]

Considering the struggle that the state has went through decades, its time we take strict actions. Lots of lives were lost for this issue in 1980s and 1990s. Finally NRC gives a permanent solution to the decade old problem.

Open or not, these people have put much pressure on the economy and socio political ways. This time, it will be over.

NRC is needed all over the country. These people have migrated to most big cities and are a security threat.

 

[Abdullah719]

India has the right to deport illegal immigrants all they want but it’s Amit Shah calling Bangladeshis ’termites’ that’s disturbing.

Tbh, i’m in support of Pakistan deporting illegal Afghan refugees back as well for security reasons.

But Bangladesh doesn't want them, so they won't be deported, will they...

Looks like they'll be stuffed in 'detention centres' aka prisons.

 

[Majestic_Inzi]

What you going to do? Sterilize them?

Bangladesh is a small country, they are over populated already. So where will they go?

 

[cricketjoshila]

But Bangladesh doesn't want them, so they won't be deported, will they...

Looks like they'll be stuffed in 'detention centres' aka prisons.

They can go back via the same route they came.

These steps are necessary to show future migrants that, all they will get in India is hostility and that they may lose everything that they have in India in a blink of an eye.

 

[cricketjoshila]

What you going to do? Sterilize them?

Bangladesh is a small country, they are over populated already. So where will they go?

Thats for BD to think. No our bm problem.

 

[Majestic_Inzi]

Thats for BD to think. No our bm problem.

U didnt think when you sided with them to attack pakistan.
U helped create bangladesh..
You reap what you sow.

So glad this is not pakistans problem..

 

[Asim_khan]

Thats for BD to think. No our bm problem.

You've gotta get them over the border. Til then it's your problem.

 

[Down2Earth]

Sheikh hasina must be proud of her love for India now

 

[Itachi]

What you going to do? Sterilize them?

Bangladesh is a small country, they are over populated already. So where will they go?

Thats not for us to decide. They have illegally came to this country.

They will have to go.

I'll repeat. People were died during the struggle to weed them out. There's no place for them in India.

 

[cricketjoshila]

You've gotta get them over the border. Til then it's your problem.

They will themselves find a way to go back, like they found one to come here.

 

[sweep_shot]

BTW, many Indians also migrate to North America illegally. Many of them overstay their visas and put pressure on local population.

I am against all forms of illegal migration.

All countries (including India and Bangladesh) should take back illegals worldwide. Let's do things in legal ways.

 

[srh]

I think all these problems can be solved if Indian Bengal join Bangladesh. Right now Bangladesh is a small country with a huge population. A comparison: its size is probably 1/8th of Pakistan and yet its population is almost same as Pakistan.
So Bangladesh needs more land for its people and Indian Bengal makes the most sense as before 1947 partition under British Raj, current Indian Bengal and current Bangladesh were one unit and they both share the same culture and language. So after the merger, no illegal Bengali has any reason to be in any part of India.

 

[rhony]

I think all these problems can be solved if Indian Bengal join Bangladesh. Right now Bangladesh is a small country with a huge population. A comparison: its size is probably 1/8th of Pakistan and yet its population is almost same as Pakistan.
So Bangladesh needs more land for its people and Indian Bengal makes the most sense as before 1947 partition under British Raj, current Indian Bengal and current Bangladesh were one unit and they both share the same culture and language. So after the merger, no illegal Bengali has any reason to be in any part of India.

Why will Indian Bengal join Bangladesh? The illegal immigration is in the other direction. I know BD gov took massive steps already but what you and Indians need is aggressive family planning to control the population.

 

[Abdullah719]

"Conspiracy To Keep Hindus Out": Assam BJP Leaders Unhappy With NRC List

GUWAHATI: As the Assam National Register of Citizens or NRC was released today, members of the state's ruling BJP lashed out, saying the list left out many genuine citizens, especially refugees who migrated from Bangladesh before 1971.
"The Names of many Indian citizens who migrated from Bangladesh as refugees prior to 1971 have not been included in the NRC because authorities refused to accept refugee certificates," Assam Minister Himanta Biswa Sarma said in a series of tweets.

"Many names got included because of manipulation of legacy data as alleged by many," he added.

Mr Sarma, who is among the BJP's top leaders in Assam, had earlier said he had no faith in the NRC and didn't think it would help remove illegal immigrants.

The Assam NRC released on Saturday excludes over 19 lakh people, who now have to fight their case and prove they have been in Assam for decades. The government says they won't be declared foreigners immediately and have the option of appealing to the foreigners' Tribunals and the courts.

After the NRC, the BJP has indicated that it will bring the citizenship amendment Bill soon. Speaking to NDTV, firebrand BJP MLA Silditya Dev alleged that the NRC was part of a "conspiracy to keep Hindus out and help Muslims". He alleged that the NRC software was bugged and the process of preparing the citizen's list was steeped in corruption.

"People wanted error free NRC for protection of right but it didn't happen... It seems a conspiracy to keep the Hindus out and give legitimacy to Muslim infiltrators," Silditya Dev said.

"When the Assam accord happened it was estimated there are over one crore Bangladeshis, where have they gone now," he questioned.

He also felt that the NRC software needed to be under scrutiny as it was managed by a private firm and the government was not involved.

"The BJP will now protect the Hindus with the citizenship bill. We will bring it soon," Mr Dev declared.

To establish citizenship, the people of Assam have had to furnish proof of residence going back decades, before March 1971, the year in which hundreds of thousands of people left Bangladesh as it split off from Pakistan.

The Supreme Court, which has monitored the process of preparing the list, this month rejected the government's request for more time.

https://www.ndtv.com/india-news/ass...sam-bjp-leaders-unhappy-with-nrc-list-2093492

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

With a crisis looming in Assam, the government is grappling with another in Kashmir. The Modi administration revoked the autonomy of India’s only-Muslim majority state three weeks ago, imposing a stifling military crackdown and cutting phone and internet networks to silence dissent.

The twin crises have raised alarm at the agenda pursued by Mr Modi and his nationalist Bharatiya Janata Party (BJP), unfettered after securing a second term in office with a landslide election victory in May.

Contractors on the site in Goalpara were happy to show visitors around, and pose for pictures. Bishnu Saud, a Muslim from the nearby village of Matia, admitted the detention centres could become the stage for rights violations. “Yes,” he said. “But we work only for the money. There are not many jobs here.”

Observers have compared the saga unfolding in Assam to the Rohingya crisis in Myanmar and the mass imprisonment of Uighur Muslims in China. An early draft of the new NRC excluded 4.1 million people, leading to panic as families scrambled to trace paperwork that could prove their citizenship.

Scores of families have been split in two, with some making the list and others not.

Lawyers representing those left off the NRC at tribunals formed to hear the cases say the appeals system is near-impossible to navigate, especially for the poor and uneducated. Many in rural India, particularly women, have little or no documentation...

Activists have complained of deplorable conditions in the detention centres, with suspected migrants held for years alongside criminals as their appeals drag on. Malnutrition and sickness are rife. Researchers have linked more than 50 suicides to NRC issues.

Subrata Dey, 36, died in uncertain circumstances in detention last year. His mother told The Times that his health had deteriorated rapidly during the weeks he was inside. “After seeing his face, I could see he was not eating properly,” Anima Dey said. “I took food, but it was not allowed. I went to visit him five days before he died; he was totally weak.”

She insisted that she, her husband and son were all born nearby in Goalpara. She produced Subrata’s voting card, on which his name was spelt incorrectly, and said he had been labelled a foreigner because of the error.

Lawyers representing those detained have a host of similar stories, with thousands of Indians victimised because of minor discrepancies in their documents. “Tell me, what is the ultimate intent of declaring people as foreigners?” said Aman Wadud. “To deport them to their country of origin. Now, when you declare your own people as foreigners, how can you deport them?”

The cut-off for proof of citizenship is 1971, when Bangladesh broke away from Pakistan, prompting a bitter war and sending millions of refugees fleeing over the Indian border.

From the OP article linked above. I have seen similar situations in the UK where a spelling discrepancy on a birth certificate logged by a native writing in a different language to the parents of immigrants has led to questioning of legality of citizenship. I wonder if such strict terms are applied to those of officially preferred religions?

 

[Itachi]

From the OP article linked above. I have seen similar situations in the UK where a spelling discrepancy on a birth certificate logged by a native writing in a different language to the parents of immigrants has led to questioning of legality of citizenship. I wonder if such strict terms are applied to those of officially preferred religions?

The NRC process isn't as simple as seeing just one document and declaring them as foreigners. (I myself went through this process).

There were various stages involved if some discrepancy occurs in the documentation. While I had no problems during this process, my aunt (father's sister) had to personally attend to various offices to prove her documents.

In one stage, the officials do also visit your home in case there is major discrepancy.

If minor, then they will ask you to come to the center for NRC.

it was an ongoing process. Even when you didn't have the required document, you could goto court to provide whatever you have. Then the court asks the concerned department to investigate documents as old as 1960s or 70s in order to validate that (there were may cases like this).

And illiteracy isn't the issue here because in villages, the responsibility was given to the panchayat and elders of the village along with the sub centers. There aren't strangers who will be guiding the people but your own neighbors.

And every information was spread in a very systematic manner so that it reaches to every people out there (that's why it took so much time in the process and all the delays).

In summary, if one believes it is rejection based upon only a few documents, then it is far from the truth.

Mostly Muslims are in the list because most illegal immigrants were from east Pakistan. Simple as that.

 

[Majestic_Inzi]

I think all these problems can be solved if Indian Bengal join Bangladesh. Right now Bangladesh is a small country with a huge population. A comparison: its size is probably 1/8th of Pakistan and yet its population is almost same as Pakistan.
So Bangladesh needs more land for its people and Indian Bengal makes the most sense as before 1947 partition under British Raj, current Indian Bengal and current Bangladesh were one unit and they both share the same culture and language. So after the merger, no illegal Bengali has any reason to be in any part of India.

I agree bangladesh need more land. India mentality is just fighting with pakistan but they are causing problems on multiple fronts.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

The NRC process isn't as simple as seeing just one document and declaring them as foreigners. (I myself went through this process).

There were various stages involved if some discrepancy occurs in the documentation. While I had no problems during this process, my aunt (father's sister) had to personally attend to various offices to prove her documents.

In one stage, the officials do also visit your home in case there is major discrepancy.

If minor, then they will ask you to come to the center for NRC.

it was an ongoing process. Even when you didn't have the required document, you could goto court to provide whatever you have. Then the court asks the concerned department to investigate documents as old as 1960s or 70s in order to validate that (there were may cases like this).

And illiteracy isn't the issue here because in villages, the responsibility was given to the panchayat and elders of the village along with the sub centers. There aren't strangers who will be guiding the people but your own neighbors.

And every information was spread in a very systematic manner so that it reaches to every people out there (that's why it took so much time in the process and all the delays).

In summary, if one believes it is rejection based upon only a few documents, then it is far from the truth.

Mostly Muslims are in the list because most illegal immigrants were from east Pakistan. Simple as that.

Thanks for your individual view, but according to the report from the Times, "thousands of Indians" have been vicitimised because of minor discrepancies in their documents. The Times is a reputable news media in the UK, probably the most respected source worldwide in fact. I think I will believe their version over yours for now, having seen your silence on the Macdonalds thread when asked to follow through your reasoning on two occasions.

 

[srh]

Why will Indian Bengal join Bangladesh? The illegal immigration is in the other direction. I know BD gov took massive steps already but what you and Indians need is aggressive family planning to control the population.

because both of them are bengal doh! Bangladesh country was created based on bengal culture and language as a homeland of all bengali people so it makes sense that Indian Bengal want to join Bangladesh. People of Indian Bengal have more in common with Bangladesh than any other part of India.

 

[cricketjoshila]

because both of them are bengal doh! Bangladesh country was created based on bengal culture and language as a homeland of all bengali people so it makes sense that Indian Bengal want to join Bangladesh. People of Indian Bengal have more in common with Bangladesh than any other part of India.

People of bengal decided in 1946-47 that they didnot want to stay with the the muslim majority east bengal and hence bengal was divided.

Read about Bengali Hindu homeland movement.

Though bengalis of both sides rejected pakistan ultimately.

People like you must stick to talking about things you know.

 

[cricketjoshila]

Thanks for your individual view, but according to the report from the Times, "thousands of Indians" have been vicitimised because of minor discrepancies in their documents. The Times is a reputable news media in the UK, probably the most respected source worldwide in fact. I think I will believe their version over yours for now, having seen your silence on the Macdonalds thread when asked to follow through your reasoning on two occasions.

Lol. If this is the reputable source in UK than i can only laugh. But then again its your version.

The very headline is a lie. Neither Modi started the NRC, nor is his govt doing it. Its a supreme court run exercise and part of tge 1980s Assam Accord.

 

[rhony]

because both of them are bengal doh! Bangladesh country was created based on bengal culture and language as a homeland of all bengali people so it makes sense that Indian Bengal want to join Bangladesh. People of Indian Bengal have more in common with Bangladesh than any other part of India.

I think that puzzle was solved 70 years ago. The choices were made, countries were formed. Being more in common with a neighbor is good. It means technically you can get along with them as long as they don't allow millions to illegally migrate to their neighbor.

 

[Dios]

Bangladesh's stance on the matter:

News18 contacted Bangladesh Home Minister Asaduzzaman Khan Kamal for comments on the NRC.

When asked about Sarma’s statement, he said, “Bangladesh has nothing to do with NRC. I repeat, it is India’s internal matter. I don’t know who said what in this matter. Let India inform us officially, then we will respond.

“All I can say is that no one from Bangladesh went to India after 1971. It may be possible that they settled (mainly Bengalis) in Assam from various parts of India itself, but not Bangladesh.”

In Dhaka, Foreign Minister AK Abdul Momen told reporters after a programme that the government was keeping an eye on the developments.

“Some in India are saying there are many Bangladeshis, but actually there is no Bangladeshi citizen. All who went there from Bangladesh moved between ’47 and ’71. No-one goes now,” he said.

https://bdnews24.com/world/south-as...to-take-back-its-people-assam-minister-on-nrc

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Lol. If this is the reputable source in UK than i can only laugh. But then again its your version.

The very headline is a lie. Neither Modi started the NRC, nor is his govt doing it. Its a supreme court run exercise and part of tge 1980s Assam Accord.

How is it my version? I don't write for the Times, neither did I post the OP. The Times will continue to be respected around the world regardless of what someone sitting in India thinks.

 

[Itachi]

Thanks for your individual view, but according to the report from the Times, "thousands of Indians" have been vicitimised because of minor discrepancies in their documents. The Times is a reputable news media in the UK, probably the most respected source worldwide in fact. I think I will believe their version over yours for now, having seen your silence on the Macdonalds thread when asked to follow through your reasoning on two occasions.

It's upto you to decide which ones you want to follow. I not trying to convince somebody rather trying to give little info about NRC and how it is misrepresented in most media. The whole argument is flawed from the base because NRC is a process under supervision of Supreme Court and not modi unlike what the sources are telling.

And secondly, very busy during these days so I may miss some of the quotes. I use mobile and in this layout, quotes aren't shown. You can link me to the post and I will surely reply as it seems I have missed some of your replies.

 

[Itachi]

How is it my version? I don't write for the Times, neither did I post the OP. The Times will continue to be respected around the world regardless of what someone sitting in India thinks.

CPT. the whole premise of the article is wrong because it is process under Supreme Court and not modi.

The whole base of NRC goes back to 1985 Assam agitation against illegal immigrants which raised the political party AGP.

 

[Itachi]

because both of them are bengal doh! Bangladesh country was created based on bengal culture and language as a homeland of all bengali people so it makes sense that Indian Bengal want to join Bangladesh. People of Indian Bengal have more in common with Bangladesh than any other part of India.

Bemgali people in India are perhaps one of the most pro Indian people. They are proud about their heritage and hence are respected all over the India due to their contributions to the Indian freedom movement.

Living in Canada (iirc) you have no idea the demography and sentiment of the people here. You are wild guessing and your guess couldn't be more further from the truth.

 

[Abdullah719]

The first glimpse of new detention centres for ‘foreigners’ in Assam

Even as confusion prevails about the plight of 1.9 million people left out of the NRC, work on the construction of detention centres is in full swing in Assam.

There is confusion because of conflicting statements and procedures laid down. While BJP leaders have been assuring people that people left out will not be automatically detained, the excluded are allowed to approach tribunals and thereafter appeal to the High Courts—which is going to be a long-drawn out process.

So, who will be detained even before the legal processes and appeals are exhausted? And while the state is building 10 such camps to accommodate three thousand people in each of them, there is clearly no way the state can detain even 10 per cent of those excluded from the NRC.

160 Kms away from Guwahati, Assam Government is using local people to build what looks like a concentration camp to detain other local residents left out of the National Register of Citizens and hence deemed to be foreigners.

The detention centre is being built in Domini (Matia), a Muslim majority district in Goalpara district at a cost of Rs 45 Crore and is designed to detain 3000 people.

There are watch towers at the four corners, a police outpost at the entrance and high boundary walls with sharp shards of glass embedded on top. At least that is the plan , said construction workers who have been given the deadline of December, 2019 to complete it.

They have built a water tank, quarters for the officers, but the rooms for the inmates are under construction. An area within the compound has been demarcated for a hospital and a school is being built just outside the building. There will be separate living quarters for men and women. According to construction workers on the site, the buildings are likely to be more than 10 storeys.

The work at this detention centre had begun in December 2018. This imposing centre in Goalpara is one of the eleven detention centres under construction.

The detention centres are being built despite the Supreme Court frowning on the state separating parents from children. At least 25 persons have died in detention centres inside jails in Assam, where they were lodged since they were declared foreigner by tribunals. Currently, the state has six such detention centres inside district jails in Tezpur, Dibrugarh, Jorhat, Silchar, Kokrajhar and Goalpara.

The irony is that most of the excluded have lived all their lives in Assam, have been left out because of poor documentation by government agencies, inefficiency and corruption in the tribunals. What is more while the Home Minister Amit Shah had vowed to deport all the foreigners, the External Affairs Minister S. Jaishankar has hinted that nobody would be deported.

https://www.nationalheraldindia.com...new-detention-centres-for-foreigners-in-assam

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[Cpt. Rishwat]

Are these detention centres just another case of Indians peeking over the fence of the western world and copying whatever they do? If they have them in Australia and France, it must be a good idea. To be fair, it may well be, but only shame is that Indians never think of anything first. Be it franchised tv shows like Masterchef or Pop Idol, or loaded language like 'terrorist'. Would be nice to see India lead the way in something for a change instead of slavishly copying what great lead nations do.

 

[MenInG]

India’s home affairs minister has said his government “will not allow a single illegal immigrant to stay” amid outcry over a citizenship register in Assam that could leave almost 2 million people stateless.

The comment were made by Amit Shah during a visit to the border state. The home affairs ministry, paraphrasing Shah’s speech, said he was satisfied with the “timely completion of the process”.

Over the past four years, about 33 million people in Assam have been forced to prove they are citizens by demonstrating they have roots in the state dating to before March 1971. Shah, prime minister Narendra Modi’s right-hand man, has previously said India must act against “infiltrators who were eating the country like termites”.

Lawyers have raised serious concerns over the process, which they say has wrongly excluded people on the basis of minor clerical errors in decades-old documents. There are fears that Muslims, women and the poorest communities could be the worst affected.

Senior figures in the Hindu-nationalist Bharatiya Janata party (BJP) had so far shied away from commenting on the list, published on 30 August.

Modi’s government had backed the National Register of Citizens (NRC), saying it was aimed at weeding out “foreign infiltrators”.

During his visit, Shah was expected to be urged by the local BJP leadership to pass legislation to protect the rights of people it says are genuine citizens excluded from the list.

While there are no clear answers as to how or why individuals have been included or excluded, bureaucratic bungling amid the mountains of paperwork appears to be one factor.

Assam is largely surrounded by Bangladesh and has long seen influxes of migrants.

Shah did not make further comments about the NRC. Those left off the register have 120 days to appeal at foreigners tribunals, and if they fail, they can appeal against that decision through the courts.

The national government has stressed that those omitted will not become stateless.

Touching on New Delhi’s contentious move on 5 August to strip autonomy from Kashmir, Shah said his government would not revoke another constitutional clause for several states – most in the northeast.

The Article 371 clause, which also covers Assam, is aimed at preserving the local culture of those states. “I have clarified in parliament that this is not going to happen and I am saying it again today in Assam,” he said.

Opposition politicians had questioned Modi’s government on whether those special rights would also be scrapped after the Kashmir move.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...y-says-india-after-register-excludes-millions

 

[Abdullah719]

India builds detention camps for up to 1.9m people ‘stripped of citizenship’ in Assam

The Indian government is building mass detention camps after almost two million people were told they could be effectively stripped of citizenship.

Around 1.9m people in the north-eastern state of Assam were excluded when India published the state’s final National Register of Citizens (NRC) list in August.

Those excluded from the register will have to appeal to prove they are citizens. The UN and other international rights groups have expressed concern that many could be rendered stateless.

The citizenship list is part of a drive to detect illegal immigrants in Assam.

The Indian government claims that the migrants have arrived from neighbouring Muslim-majority Bangladesh.

Critics say that the register has upended the lives of Muslims who have lived legally in the state for decades.

Those appealing to be put on the register will need to provide documentation, such as birth certificates, dating back decades.

Record keeping in parts of rural India is poor and many, including those building the camps, have been caught out by the NRC’s stringent requirements.

“We don’t have birth certificates,” Malati Hajong, one of the labourers working at a site near the village of Goalpara, told the Reuters news agency.

The Goalpara camp is one of at least 10 planned detention centres, according to local media reports.

It is around the size of seven football pitches and designed to hold 3,000 people.

Officials plan to have a school and hospital at the centre, as well as a high boundary wall and watchtowers for the security forces.

Critics have accused the Modi administration of using the NRC to target Assam’s large Muslim community.

But the government says it is simply complying with an order from India’s Supreme Court, which said the NRC had been delayed for too long and set a strict deadline for its completion.

Government sources say those excluded from the list retain their rights and have 120 days to appeal at local “Foreigners Tribunals”. If that fails, they can take their cases to the High Court of Assam and ultimately the Supreme Court. What happens to those who fail at all levels of appeal is yet to be decided, they said.

Last month the local chapter of India’s ruling Bharatiya Janata Party expressed dismay after it became apparent that many Hindus had also been excluded from the list.

Officials said the government may pass legislation to protect legitimate citizens.

The government is already in the process of bringing legislation to grant citizenship to Hindu, Sikh and Buddhist immigrants from neighbouring countries.

Muslim immigrants are not included in the law.

The nationalist, hardline Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh (RSS) group also called for genuine citizens to be included in the list after it emerged that Hindus had been affected. The RSS and BJP are closely affiliated.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...ntion-camps-bangladesh-nrc-list-a9099251.html

 

[Abdullah719]

Citizen's List Won't Impact Bangladesh, PM Tells Sheikh Hasina: Report

Spoiler

DHAKA: Prime Minister Narendra Modi has assured his Bangladesh counterpart Sheikh Hasina that the National Register of Citizens (NRC) would have "no impact on Bangladesh" and there is no need to be worried about it, according to a report.
He gave the assurance at a meeting with Sheikh Hasina at Lotte New York Palace hotel on the sidelines of the 74th UN General Assembly on Friday, the Daily Star reported.

Briefing reporters after the meeting, Bangladesh Foreign Minister AK Abdul Momen said the talks were held in a very cordial and friendly environment.

He said bilateral concerns like the issues of NRC and water-sharing of the common rivers, including the Teesta, were discussed at the meeting.

Raising the NRC issue, Sheikh Hasina said it has become a matter of great concern for Bangladesh, according to the report.

In his reply, PM Modi said issues like the NRC and water-sharing could be taken care of very easily as the relations between Bangladesh and India were very good.

PM Modi assured her that Indian officials would work to resolve the issues and said Bangladesh need not worry about it.

Foreign Minister Momen said there had been no detailed discussion at the meeting as the two leaders are going to have a bilateral meeting in New Delhi on October 5.

https://www.ndtv.com/india-news/nat...ster-narendra-modi-tells-bangladesh-p-2108623

---------------

So where exactly will the 'illegal immigrants' go?

 

[blackanhyellow]

Citizen's List Won't Impact Bangladesh, PM Tells Sheikh Hasina: Report

Spoiler

DHAKA: Prime Minister Narendra Modi has assured his Bangladesh counterpart Sheikh Hasina that the National Register of Citizens (NRC) would have "no impact on Bangladesh" and there is no need to be worried about it, according to a report.
He gave the assurance at a meeting with Sheikh Hasina at Lotte New York Palace hotel on the sidelines of the 74th UN General Assembly on Friday, the Daily Star reported.

Briefing reporters after the meeting, Bangladesh Foreign Minister AK Abdul Momen said the talks were held in a very cordial and friendly environment.

He said bilateral concerns like the issues of NRC and water-sharing of the common rivers, including the Teesta, were discussed at the meeting.

Raising the NRC issue, Sheikh Hasina said it has become a matter of great concern for Bangladesh, according to the report.

In his reply, PM Modi said issues like the NRC and water-sharing could be taken care of very easily as the relations between Bangladesh and India were very good.

PM Modi assured her that Indian officials would work to resolve the issues and said Bangladesh need not worry about it.

Foreign Minister Momen said there had been no detailed discussion at the meeting as the two leaders are going to have a bilateral meeting in New Delhi on October 5.

https://www.ndtv.com/india-news/nat...ster-narendra-modi-tells-bangladesh-p-2108623

---------------

So where exactly will the 'illegal immigrants' go?

BJP convinced Kashmiris that the additional troops being sent was due to an imminent security threat in the region, and that Article 370 was not being changed.

lol taking their word is foolish.

Obviously if the people are not allowed to stay in India, this implies they will have to go to bangladesh.

 

[Lonewarrior]

Citizen's List Won't Impact Bangladesh, PM Tells Sheikh Hasina: Report

Spoiler

DHAKA: Prime Minister Narendra Modi has assured his Bangladesh counterpart Sheikh Hasina that the National Register of Citizens (NRC) would have "no impact on Bangladesh" and there is no need to be worried about it, according to a report.
He gave the assurance at a meeting with Sheikh Hasina at Lotte New York Palace hotel on the sidelines of the 74th UN General Assembly on Friday, the Daily Star reported.

Briefing reporters after the meeting, Bangladesh Foreign Minister AK Abdul Momen said the talks were held in a very cordial and friendly environment.

He said bilateral concerns like the issues of NRC and water-sharing of the common rivers, including the Teesta, were discussed at the meeting.

Raising the NRC issue, Sheikh Hasina said it has become a matter of great concern for Bangladesh, according to the report.

In his reply, PM Modi said issues like the NRC and water-sharing could be taken care of very easily as the relations between Bangladesh and India were very good.

PM Modi assured her that Indian officials would work to resolve the issues and said Bangladesh need not worry about it.

Foreign Minister Momen said there had been no detailed discussion at the meeting as the two leaders are going to have a bilateral meeting in New Delhi on October 5.

https://www.ndtv.com/india-news/nat...ster-narendra-modi-tells-bangladesh-p-2108623

---------------

So where exactly will the 'illegal immigrants' go?

in indian ocean, after all who cares in india.

 

[Justcrazy]

I think all these problems can be solved if Indian Bengal join Bangladesh. Right now Bangladesh is a small country with a huge population. A comparison: its size is probably 1/8th of Pakistan and yet its population is almost same as Pakistan.
So Bangladesh needs more land for its people and Indian Bengal makes the most sense as before 1947 partition under British Raj, current Indian Bengal and current Bangladesh were one unit and they both share the same culture and language. So after the merger, no illegal Bengali has any reason to be in any part of India.

Bengal was divided in 1927, not 1947 .

 

[ahsan17]

They will themselves find a way to go back, like they found one to come here.

This seems like a Trumpian promise such as the trader wars promise which they now have to subsidize. Similarly, India now has to create detention camps. How will they go back to Bangladesh if they will deny them entry?

 

[cricketjoshila]

This seems like a Trumpian promise such as the trader wars promise which they now have to subsidize. Similarly, India now has to create detention camps. How will they go back to Bangladesh if they will deny them entry?

How did they come here? Did India invite them? No.

A large part of India-BD border is through marshlands. Its difficult to fence and patrol that area.

Secondly once you take strict action againist these illegal infiltrators, the next one coming will think 10 times before coming.

Idea is to make India a unwelcoming place for illegal immigrants.

 

[Abdullah719]

UP Police Asked To Identify And Deport Bangladeshis, Other 'Foreigners'

Spoiler

LUCKNOW: The police in Uttar Pradesh have been asked to identify Bangladeshis and "other foreigners" so they can be deported, in what many see as its version of the Assam NRC. The move is "very important" for the state's internal security, the UP Director General of Police has said in a letter to all district police chiefs.

The deportation will be "time-bound and monitored by senior officials," the top officer has said in his directives, which come in the middle of a controversy over the revised citizen's list in BJP-ruled Assam, the NRC or National Register of Citizens, which leaves out 19 lakh people who face being thrown out of the state if they cannot prove their citizenship.

"It has nothing to do with NRC. It's a normal policing exercise intended to strengthen our security mechanisms," UP police chief OP Singh told NDTV, adding that "We have been doing similar exercises".

The Uttar Pradesh police has been ordered to comb transport hubs and slum clusters on the outskirts of their districts and verify all documents produced by anyone appearing suspicious.

The police have also been asked to track down government employees who may have helped prepare fake documents for "foreigners".

Fingerprints of people identified as Bangladeshis or other foreigners will be taken. The police have told construction companies that it is their responsibility to keep identity proof of all labourers.

"We intend to identify such people. Order is very clear... we need to be transparent. Videography has to be done and no one has to be troubled," Mr Singh said.

Last month, Chief Minister Yogi Adityanath had praised the Assam NRC and said he would launch a similar move in his state if needed. In an interview, he had said the Assam exercise was important for "national security".

The Supreme Court-monitored citizen's list exercise in Assam was, however, vastly different as it is aimed at determining who was born in Assam and who came from Bangladesh or other neighboring regions and gives a cut-off date. Those who can prove they were residents of Assam up to midnight on March 24, 1971 -- a day before Bangladesh declared its independence from Pakistan - are considered citizens by the NRC.

https://www.ndtv.com/india-news/utt...his-and-other-foreigners-in-the-state-2110107

 

[cricketjoshila]

UP Police Asked To Identify And Deport Bangladeshis, Other 'Foreigners'

Spoiler

LUCKNOW: The police in Uttar Pradesh have been asked to identify Bangladeshis and "other foreigners" so they can be deported, in what many see as its version of the Assam NRC. The move is "very important" for the state's internal security, the UP Director General of Police has said in a letter to all district police chiefs.

The deportation will be "time-bound and monitored by senior officials," the top officer has said in his directives, which come in the middle of a controversy over the revised citizen's list in BJP-ruled Assam, the NRC or National Register of Citizens, which leaves out 19 lakh people who face being thrown out of the state if they cannot prove their citizenship.

"It has nothing to do with NRC. It's a normal policing exercise intended to strengthen our security mechanisms," UP police chief OP Singh told NDTV, adding that "We have been doing similar exercises".

The Uttar Pradesh police has been ordered to comb transport hubs and slum clusters on the outskirts of their districts and verify all documents produced by anyone appearing suspicious.

The police have also been asked to track down government employees who may have helped prepare fake documents for "foreigners".

Fingerprints of people identified as Bangladeshis or other foreigners will be taken. The police have told construction companies that it is their responsibility to keep identity proof of all labourers.

"We intend to identify such people. Order is very clear... we need to be transparent. Videography has to be done and no one has to be troubled," Mr Singh said.

Last month, Chief Minister Yogi Adityanath had praised the Assam NRC and said he would launch a similar move in his state if needed. In an interview, he had said the Assam exercise was important for "national security".

The Supreme Court-monitored citizen's list exercise in Assam was, however, vastly different as it is aimed at determining who was born in Assam and who came from Bangladesh or other neighboring regions and gives a cut-off date. Those who can prove they were residents of Assam up to midnight on March 24, 1971 -- a day before Bangladesh declared its independence from Pakistan - are considered citizens by the NRC.

https://www.ndtv.com/india-news/utt...his-and-other-foreigners-in-the-state-2110107

Good. But this needs to be done in Delhi Mumbai Bangalore.

And finally Bengal.

 

[Abdullah719]

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">This BBC report on Detention Camps is heartbreaking<br><br>85 year old jailed man cries that he is an Indian<br><br>25 people included a 45-day-old child have died in detention. Should we be treating humans like this?<br><br>Watch & Share. Modia won't show you the truth<a href="https://t.co/Z8YqNu4S7M">pic.twitter.com/Z8YqNu4S7M</a></p>— Srivatsa (@srivatsayb) <a href="https://twitter.com/srivatsayb/status/1209363647396564992?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">December 24, 2019</a></blockquote>
<script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

 

[ReverseHit]

In an exercise like this, there will be some false positives, which India should try to minimize. But can anyone truly deny that there are no illegal Bangladeshis in India?

Someone has to do the dirty work - previous Indian and state governments did not give pay attention/purposely ignored the border and flow of illegals for their vote bank. The farther we kick the can down the road, the harder it becomes as these illegals have kids in India and further deepen their roots.

It's similar to how previous US administrations didn't pay much attention to plugging the border, and now when there are millions of illegals, any one who is bold enough to take action will face the usual cries of opposition.

 

[CricketCartoons]

How did they come here? Did India invite them? No.

A large part of India-BD border is through marshlands. Its difficult to fence and patrol that area.

Secondly once you take strict action againist these illegal infiltrators, the next one coming will think 10 times before coming.

Idea is to make India a unwelcoming place for illegal immigrants.

If you are following Bangladesh newspapers, every day over 100 people are crossing the border from India to Bangladesh. Locals think that India wants to push in Indians, while Indian side thinks they are Bangladeshis going back.

 

[Bewal Express]

Does this mean that these people are to be forever locked up? May Allah grant Jannat to the Quaid for saving us from these Hindutuva fascists.

 

[Vegitto1]

How did they come here? Did India invite them? No.

A large part of India-BD border is through marshlands. Its difficult to fence and patrol that area.

Secondly once you take strict action againist these illegal infiltrators, the next one coming will think 10 times before coming.

Idea is to make India a unwelcoming place for illegal immigrants.

I hope you wish the same in your fellow Indians who migrate illegally to other part of the Worlds. Those vermins should also be locked up indefinitely.

 

[KingKhanWC]

How did they come here? Did India invite them? No.

A large part of India-BD border is through marshlands. Its difficult to fence and patrol that area.

Secondly once you take strict action againist these illegal infiltrators, the next one coming will think 10 times before coming.

Idea is to make India a unwelcoming place for illegal immigrants.

So why don't you take back your Indian brethren who are illegal immigrants in my country?

 

[Hitman]

I hope you wish the same in your fellow Indians who migrate illegally to other part of the Worlds. Those vermins should also be locked up indefinitely.

Absolutely. The countries where they illegally immigrate to can do whatever the hell they want with them. They made the decision to stay in those countries illegally, we didn't advise them to do so.

 

[cricketjoshila]

So why don't you take back your Indian brethren who are illegal immigrants in my country?

Let the UK govt deport them.

 

[Bewal Express]

Let the UK govt deport them.

Are you happy that these people are to be confined to life imprisonment?

 

[andy0204]

Are you happy that these people are to be confined to life imprisonment?

He will ignore those questions.

 

[Technics 1210]

Detention camps? Oh my! Hitler claimed his camps were for a workforce!

History is indeed repeating itself!

 

[Realromeo]

And why not?

These immigrants have no right to be in India. They are leaching off our resources.

My city had one of the best infrastructures in south asia till the 70s, when hoards of bangladeshis arrived and settled on any patch of land they could get. The city has not been the same since and detoriating everyday.

You can find these illegal immigrants living and expanding their families on footpaths, under flyovers, taking over empty govt lands, playgrounds etc etc.

There has been a huge rise in crime in kolkata in last decade or so and bangladeshi immigrants have been found to be involved in many of them.

Where are the stats ? Proof ? You like evidence right ? show me some.

Large contribution of overcrowding and people sleeping on footpaths and etc are because of migration from rural and 2nd and 3rd string towns to the city. This is common everywhere. Also it is the responsible of the government to manage the resources, look at what China has done.

Anyone born in India and grew up in India is an Indian. Aren't you also not a Hindu refugee from East Pakistan ? OMG you are a Pakistani. I KNEW IT. You are a Pakistani refugee.

 

[andy0204]

Detention camps? Oh my! Hitler claimed his camps were for a workforce!

History is indeed repeating itself!

People are aware about this,they will not let anyone to do this

 

[KingKhanWC]

Let the UK govt deport them.

lol. The UK has been trying for years. India’s refused to sign the MoU on the return of illegal migrants back to Bombay or wherever they came from.

Has something changed?

Take your own illegals back before demanding the same from others.

 

[IndianHero]

Irony is it is congress govt. in 2012 announced for starting of detention camps in assam. It started building them and on oct 20 , 2012 congress govt. in assam released a document saying 3 detention centres have been built in Golpara, Kokrajhar and Silchar (Assam) & kept foreigners inside them.

Now they are blaming BJP for congress for detention centers

 

[cricketjoshila]

Are you happy that these people are to be confined to life imprisonment?

Whatever the law of that country says, has to be done. They broke the law.

 

[cricketjoshila]

Where are the stats ? Proof ? You like evidence right ? show me some.

Large contribution of overcrowding and people sleeping on footpaths and etc are because of migration from rural and 2nd and 3rd string towns to the city. This is common everywhere. Also it is the responsible of the government to manage the resources, look at what China has done.

Anyone born in India and grew up in India is an Indian. Aren't you also not a Hindu refugee from East Pakistan ? OMG you are a Pakistani. I KNEW IT. You are a Pakistani refugee.

No. Anyone born in India after 1986 is not Indian, unless his parents were Indian. Thats the law.

I am not a refugee,nor my family was.

My grandfather came to Kolkata in 1946 permanently, before that he used to shuttle between Kolkata and Dhaka. He lived in the then British India. The house and shop he owned were bought in 1931. Some of the mining leases we have in Odisha were from before Independence.

He participated actively in the Bengali Hindu Homeland movement.

Refugee lol.

 

[cricketjoshila]

lol. The UK has been trying for years. India’s refused to sign the MoU on the return of illegal migrants back to Bombay or wherever they came from.

Has something changed?

Take your own illegals back before demanding the same from others.

You deport those who are illegal.

There is already an agreement.

https://www.deccanherald.com/amp/content/653886/india-uk-sign-mou-illegal.html


What India has refused is this

https://www.google.co.in/amp/s/www....for-illegal-migrants/article24682854.ece/amp/

UK wanted to do DNA tests of Indian nationals in India to match them with illegal immigrants in UK who were without documents.

That was not possible.

 

[Bewal Express]

Whatever the law of that country says, has to be done. They broke the law.

What a surprise that you are happy for them to be locked forever. There is nothing like giving the weakest in society a good beating.

 

[KingKhanWC]

You deport those who are illegal.

There is already an agreement.

https://www.deccanherald.com/amp/content/653886/india-uk-sign-mou-illegal.html


What India has refused is this

https://www.google.co.in/amp/s/www....for-illegal-migrants/article24682854.ece/amp/

UK wanted to do DNA tests of Indian nationals in India to match them with illegal immigrants in UK who were without documents.

That was not possible.

Your link is old. India later refused to sign. Do keep up with your own immigration issues which are causing problems for my country.

https://www.firstpost.com/india/sus...-immigrants-all-you-need-to-know-4508757.html

 

[cricketjoshila]

What a surprise that you are happy for them to be locked forever. There is nothing like giving the weakest in society a good beating.

They broke the law. There is no excuse for doing so.

 

[cricketjoshila]

Your link is old. India later refused to sign. Do keep up with your own immigration issues which are causing problems for my country.

https://www.firstpost.com/india/sus...-immigrants-all-you-need-to-know-4508757.html

Do read the second link. Thats why India refuse to sign it.

Lol at UK wanting to do DNA tests on Indians.

 

[Mesozoic]

Your link is old. India later refused to sign. Do keep up with your own immigration issues which are causing problems for my country.

https://www.firstpost.com/india/sus...-immigrants-all-you-need-to-know-4508757.html

Irony.

https://www.rt.com/news/462172-uk-pakistan-take-back-migrants/

 

[KingKhanWC]

Do read the second link. Thats why India refuse to sign it.

Lol at UK wanting to do DNA tests on Indians.

lol. So the Indians are refusing to take back their own illegals which are sitting here in the UK.

We don't want them and if you people are so worried about illegal immigration into your 3rd world nation, then you should understand and take them back.

I think the UK should just put them on a cheap boat and leave them in Indian waters.

 

[KingKhanWC]

Irony.

https://www.rt.com/news/462172-uk-pakistan-take-back-migrants/

Knock ,knock, Modi at the door. This thread is about India.

Why is India refusing to take back the illegals from the UK. We want these people out.

 

[Realromeo]

No. Anyone born in India after 1986 is not Indian, unless his parents were Indian. Thats the law.

I am not a refugee,nor my family was.

My grandfather came to Kolkata in 1946 permanently, before that he used to shuttle between Kolkata and Dhaka. He lived in the then British India. The house and shop he owned were bought in 1931. Some of the mining leases we have in Odisha were from before Independence.

He participated actively in the Bengali Hindu Homeland movement.

Refugee lol.

Just because your grandparents "moved" before the partition doesn't make you a non-refugee. You are just legal on papers, you too are an invasive individual to this great nation. You wanna talk about British India. Ok then we were all British Indians before, so lets take pride in 250+ years of the great British Indian empire instead of holding on to this new "India" thing that is only about 70 years old. Oh wait........this doesn't suit your narrative does it ? How about even before that when we were all small states ? You wanna go back to that ?

If you do genetics study, you'll be surprised by the making of your genetics. No point in hanging on to the "law". Laws are always changing, they evolve. I don't see how someone born in India, spent all their life in India, adapted to our culture is not an Indian. If you are Indian, so are they.