Indian Muslim comedian on conflicted loyalties in India-Pakistan cricket!

[Slog]

Though it is a standup routine it is based on his experience and certainly interesting thoughts.

I myself have met several Indian Muslims who do have soft spots for Pak cricket team. I remember once I was in the mosque in US where I was discussing cricket with an Indian. He was like 'PSL mai maaa nahi hai'. I told him 'Obviously app support nahi kartay tu interesting nahi lagay gi.' And he replied, Agar dil ka haal bataaon tu phir yeh na bolein'

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[Sachin136]

Not sure if your thread title is correct. He is talking about how others think that he supports Pakistan, but he supports India wholeheartedely.

 

[Pakistanian]

indian muslims are a mixed bag, some love pakistan, some hate pakistan and others don't care. I know many indian muslims that are even active member of their college PSAs loool.

 

[Itachi]

I don't question loyalty based in religion.

But I somewhat will play devil's advocate here. When you put as muslim first before all other aspects, then you shouldn't be surprised if people asked you about priority.

They will be conflict between what religion tells and what they feel and hence, affirmation will be asked.

 

[CricketCartoons]

Haven't seen the same support for Bangladesh if religion was the only factor. In the past it was the Pakistani team which gave the marginalized muslims in India a sense of pride, it may have diluted with the coming of zaheer khans and the decline of pakistani team, but with the coming of hindu nationalist parties who declare who is a anti national and who is a traitor, the love for pakistan may have resumed out of spite.

 

[rahulrulezz]

indian muslims are a mixed bag, some love pakistan, some hate pakistan and others don't care. I know many indian muslims that are even active member of their college PSAs loool.

Yet to met even a single Indian Muslim who loves Pakiatan. They might have hate or don't care attitude towards Pakistan but definitely not this what some Indian Hindus/Pakistanis believe that Indian Muslims love Pakistan. My roommate for two years in uni was an Indian Muslim who was probably one of the biggest Indian nationalist I have ever met. The guy would defend India at any cost when we had debates. And he wasn't the only one.
I have had so many Indian Muslim friends that I hate/get angry when some Indian Hindus doubt their loyalty (excluding Kashmiri Muslims)

 

[Pakistanian]

Yet to met even a single Indian Muslim who loves Pakiatan. They might have hate or don't care attitude towards Pakistan but definitely not this what some Indian Hindus/Pakistanis believe that Indian Muslims love Pakistan. My roommate for two years in uni was an Indian Muslim who was probably one of the biggest Indian nationalist I have ever met. The guy would defend India at any cost when we had debates. And he wasn't the only one.
I have had so many Indian Muslim friends that I hate/get angry when some Indian Hindus doubt their loyalty (excluding Kashmiri Muslims)

my experience is only with indian-american muslims that i know of, I don't know what it's like in India.

 

[Itachi]

my experience is only with indian-american muslims that i know of, I don't know what it's like in India.

If you'll go by threads in PP, you'll see that most Pakistanis put indian Muslims aside and rest of the world Muslims aside.

When indian Muslims voice for the nation, they are termed as, forced opinion due to Muslims being a minority here.

 

[Pakistanian]

If you'll go by threads in PP, you'll see that most Pakistanis put indian Muslims aside and rest of the world Muslims aside.

When indian Muslims voice for the nation, they are termed as, forced opinion due to Muslims being a minority here.

cause they come off as they're trying to prove something by overcompensating, also we hate when they speak for Pakistan feel like criticise Pakistan even if they have connection to Pakistan, never been there but only cause theyre muslim they feel they're an authority - not Indian muslims are like that but Fareed Zakaria, Javed Akhtar etc come to mind.

 

[Pakistanian]

cause they come off as they're trying to prove something by overcompensating, also we hate when they speak for Pakistan feel like criticise Pakistan even if they have connection to Pakistan, never been there but only cause theyre muslim they feel they're an authority - not Indian muslims are like that but Fareed Zakaria, Javed Akhtar etc come to mind.

have no* connection to Pakistan.

 

[hussain.r97]

From my experience with Indian Muslims, they seem to have a lot of hate for Pakistan, and they often go ridiculously far and out of their way to show that they are Indians and support India.

 

[Madplayer]

have no* connection to Pakistan.

Javed akktar is athiest.

 

[Sidilicious]

cause they come off as they're trying to prove something by overcompensating, also we hate when they speak for Pakistan feel like criticise Pakistan even if they have connection to Pakistan, never been there but only cause theyre muslim they feel they're an authority - not Indian muslims are like that but Fareed Zakaria, Javed Akhtar etc come to mind.

Thats because of many a times Pakistanis try and show fake concern for Indian Muslims, just because they are muslims and for political purposes. Indian muslims, on the other hand, have made it clear that they dont need their concerns.

So, its obvious that Indian muslims will retaliate when they feel that Pakistanis dont treat them like any other Indian, but use them for their political gain.

Having said that, this political point scoring has reduced over the last 15 years.

 

[Pakistanian]

Javed akktar is athiest.

yeah but he plays up his "muslim background" to lend himself credibility when he critiques pakistan.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

I don't question loyalty based in religion.

But I somewhat will play devil's advocate here. When you put as muslim first before all other aspects, then you shouldn't be surprised if people asked you about priority.

They will be conflict between what religion tells and what they feel and hence, affirmation will be asked.

Where is the conflict in real terms today? A vegan in America would probably identify in principle with one in India, but that wouldn't necessarily mean that she saw herself as Indian.

 

[Madplayer]

yeah but he plays up his "muslim background" to lend himself credibility when he critiques pakistan.

Yes. He is an idiot and not a likeable person.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

yeah but he plays up his "muslim background" to lend himself credibility when he critiques pakistan.

He's just trying to win approval from his audience, you can't really blame him for it. This is similar to Adil Ray, the Indian Muslim who wrote the popular hit show Citizen Khan for the BBC. Khan plays a bumbling idiot Pakistani who we can all laugh at, although it is really just a rip off of the original and best Pakistani dad from Eat is East which was masterfully played by legend Om Puri.

 

[enkidu_]

The average Indian Muslim has no connection, but the élite which has remained in UP/Hyderabad/etc probably does for the simple reason that many (majority in fact) of their relatives have moved into Pakistan at the Partition, that's why all Bollywood Khan's have a connection to Pak because they're of foreign descent/formed the Mughal élite, but the common Indian Muslim, the one at the very bottom of India's socio-economic indicators with the Dalit (see Sachar committee), never really bought the Pakistan idea.

 

[Madplayer]

He's just trying to win approval from his audience, you can't really blame him for it. This is similar to Adil Ray, the Indian Muslim who wrote the popular hit show Citizen Khan for the BBC. Khan plays a bumbling idiot Pakistani who we can all laugh at, although it is really just a rip off of the original and best Pakistani dad from Eat is East which was masterfully played by legend Om Puri.

Any honest observer could tell you few things about Indian muslims.

Indian muslims try too hard to prove their loyalty to India and many a times go out of their way to vilify Pakistan just to appease Indian hindus.

No matter how hard Indian muslims try, they will always be seens as outsiders by one Indian group or the other depending on which side they take during a debate. The moment they become critical of some policy of Indian governments (even if on merit) they are called as Pakistanis/anti-nationals/ desh drohis by the group which supports that policy. In short, only those hindus consider them Indians with whom these Indian muslims agree.

 

[TSA321]

He's just trying to win approval from his audience, you can't really blame him for it. This is similar to Adil Ray, the Indian Muslim .

He's of Pakistani origin.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

He's of Pakistani origin.

He's an honorary Indian in my book.

 

[Itachi]

Where is the conflict in real terms today? A vegan in America would probably identify in principle with one in India, but that wouldn't necessarily mean that she saw herself as Indian.

The conflict comes since Islam isn't just a religion but a way of life. Putting Muslim first will create doubts among non Muslims when it comes to nation.

For example, there will come conflict of interest when the nation will face opposition against an Islamic nation.

In this case, which one you will put first?

I am proud that our Muslim brothers and sisters have always stuck by the nation through thick and thin and even when it is unfair at some point, they are putting voice in appropriate forums.

But this conflict comes from principles and not because of individual.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

The conflict comes since Islam isn't just a religion but a way of life. Putting Muslim first will create doubts among non Muslims when it comes to nation.

For example, there will come conflict of interest when the nation will face opposition against an Islamic nation.

In this case, which one you will put first?

I am proud that our Muslim brothers and sisters have always stuck by the nation through thick and thin and even when it is unfair at some point, they are putting voice in appropriate forums.

But this conflict comes from principles and not because of individual.

Muslims will generally abide by the laws of the land they live in so I don't see where the conflict will come from. At least that is my experience in the UK, perhaps Indian Muslims are more of a rogue element in India, you would know better. If that is the case let us both stand together to condemn Indian Muslim ingrates.

 

[nextover666666]

Most Indian Muslims I met hate Pakistan in fact the ones who had should some respect or even love were the Sikhs and even some Hindus

 

[Bewal Express]

Ind Muslims no doubt support Ind- not sure why especially as they are hated by the ruling party and its acolytes but Muslims from Kasmir used to support Ind but over the last 2 decades have come to hate Ind and support PK.

 

[TSA321]

We need a contribution from The Great Khan or Wasim_Waqar.

 

[Bhaijaan]

It's odd. It's very odd. I remember going to the saloon. Most saloons in India are run my muslims. It's a profession they have totally owned. So these muslim barbours in the saloon made it a point to bash Pakistan to no end, may be to look more loyal to the hindu visitors. So there are people who genuinely have a soft spot for Pakistan but there are also people who go to the extra mile to show their absolute hate for Pakistan to seem more pro-India. Sometimes an average hindu/sikh would seem more sensible in a Pakistan hating mob dominated by passionate Indian muslims.

 

[Pakistanian]

Ind Muslims no doubt support Ind- not sure why especially as they are hated by the ruling party and its acolytes but Muslims from Kasmir used to support Ind but over the last 2 decades have come to hate Ind and support PK.

They never supported India, who are you kidding. You're falling for the Indian narrative that the Kashmir problem "only started in the 90s", when in reality they've always been against India. Even as far back as 1983, kashmiris were rooting for the west indies against India.

http://lostkashmirihistory.com/cricket-india-kashmir/

I could post more articles about Kashmiris opposing even before the 80s.

 

[Itachi]

Muslims will generally abide by the laws of the land they live in so I don't see where the conflict will come from. At least that is my experience in the UK, perhaps Indian Muslims are more of a rogue element in India, you would know better. If that is the case let us both stand together to condemn Indian Muslim ingrates.

I disagree with the UK Muslims sentiment. The ones I came across, have to be one of the most conservative ones who puts religion above every thing including the law of the lands. Even if I exclude my personal experience, most of the UK Pak posters here have too much of conservative perspective where as the ones in Pakistan are liberal and hence I can find more similarity in them.

Coming to the topic, I can only talk about my personal experience. What I can say here is, in 1985, when there was a struggle going against illegal Bangladeshi immigrants (still going on), everyone opposed which included indian Muslims too. I am proud of everyone for the struggle. I don't even dare to question their loyalty. All the people, irrespective of religion, were ready to give away their life for the cause. So from my experience, indian Muslims do have a different different view than rest of the Muslims out there and no surprise that the conservative people here, differentiate them thus.

 

[Tusker]

The average Indian Muslim has no connection, but the élite which has remained in UP/Hyderabad/etc probably does for the simple reason that many (majority in fact) of their relatives have moved into Pakistan at the Partition, that's why all Bollywood Khan's have a connection to Pak because they're of foreign descent/formed the Mughal élite, but the common Indian Muslim, the one at the very bottom of India's socio-economic indicators with the Dalit (see Sachar committee), never really bought the Pakistan idea.

That made my day .... Mughal Elite and foreign descent ehh ? )

On a serious note - People then go about wondering perplexed why there is so much backlash against muslims worldwide when supposedly well educated posters have such abominable views.
[MENTION=142162]Napa[/MENTION] [MENTION=76058]cricketjoshila[/MENTION]

 

[PakLFC]

Indian Muslim's support India and Pak non-Muslims support Pak. One in a thousand may have a soft spot for the other due to their grand parents coming from across the border. From my experience most Pakistanis don't give two hoots about Indian Muslims.

 

[enkidu_]

That made my day .... Mughal Elite and foreign descent ehh ? )

On a serious note - People then go about wondering perplexed why there is so much backlash against muslims worldwide when supposedly well educated posters have such abominable views.
[MENTION=142162]Napa[/MENTION] [MENTION=76058]cricketjoshila[/MENTION]

If you'd put more effort in thinking than laughing you'd get it : I'm talking of the "Syeds", "Farooqis", etc who were indeed the Mughal élite (as intellectuals, administrators, etc) and they were of foreign descent, unless Arabs or Persians are natives to this region. This Mughal élite (from UP mainly) migrated en masse to Pak, as it's well known by Muslims of these regions, and they also blame their departure for their own bad conditions. These peoples never felt any real connection with their Hindu neighbours, like Jews in Europe never felt connection with the ethnic European neighbors - they saw themselves as migrants and so did this élite of foreign background. It's totally on topic to mention this :

...in addition to being characterised by very low levels of socio-economic development, India’s Muslims also have an ambivalent relationship with the rest of society, with the indifference of the state and perceptions of persecution contributing towards the ghettoisation of Muslim communities in Indian cities, a tendency often reinforced by Muslims themselves.

In attempting to trace the factors that have led to this situation, Christophe Jaffrelot and Laurent Gayer identify several proximate causes, namely the decline of Urdu and the Muslim aristocracy following the revolt of 1857, the stigma and violence of Partition in 1947 as well as the migration of much of the old Muslim elite to Pakistan and, perhaps most importantly in the contemporary context, the rise of Hindu nationalism and communal violence in the last two decades.

https://www.dawn.com/news/1084234

While millions of Indian Muslims either chose to or were compelled by circumstances to remain in India (they and their descendants now number about 160 million), the vast majority of the Muslim elite of India migrated to Pakistan at partition or subsequently. They left behind broken families, shattered homes and disjointed neighbourhoods clinging to little else but hope and just biding their time. Thus, India’s residual Muslims (about a third of the subcontinent’s total Muslim population) became trapped in a vicious cycle of governmental neglect and social discrimination, aggravated by suspicion, aspersion, unemployment, low education and a lack of leadership.

http://dailytimes.com.pk/104361/what-if-there-was-no-partition/

^these Indian Muslims resent Pakistan for this reason : not only their élite basically left them, which explains their socio economic conditions today, but they chose a country which makes every Muslim in Hindustan as a potential Jinnah (who btw was himself more "secular" than +90% of India's Muslims at one point).

 

[Saj]

I remember many years ago I knew a guy who was a Muslim from India.

When it came to cricket he would always support India, yet had the cheek to question why Pakistan wouldn't help Indian Muslims when there were in trouble in India.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

I disagree with the UK Muslims sentiment. The ones I came across, have to be one of the most conservative ones who puts religion above every thing including the law of the lands. Even if I exclude my personal experience, most of the UK Pak posters here have too much of conservative perspective where as the ones in Pakistan are liberal and hence I can find more similarity in them.

Your own personal assertion that Muslims you came across put their religion above the law of the land is meaningless. It would be like me saying every Hindu I have ever come across calls himself Bob and pretends to be a Christian.

You are entitled to your view that Pak posters are more liberal, by the same token I find many Indian posters virulent Hindutvas and thus have no desire to be 'liberal' towards them. Good day to you sir and have a nice day posting.

 

[Bhaag Viru Bhaag]

Funny video but a bitter truth.

 

[Bewal Express]

They never supported India, who are you kidding. You're falling for the Indian narrative that the Kashmir problem "only started in the 90s", when in reality they've always been against India. Even as far back as 1983, kashmiris were rooting for the west indies against India.

http://lostkashmirihistory.com/cricket-india-kashmir/

I could post more articles about Kashmiris opposing even before the 80s.

The ones i knew did.

 

[DeadBall]

Not sure if your thread title is correct. He is talking about how others think that he supports Pakistan, but he supports India wholeheartedely.

This should have been /thread, but everyone seems to have their own agenda.

 

[DeadBall]

Quite hilarious nonetheless.

 

[Michael Chopra]

I don't think it happens anymore though. Most of the Indian Muslims do not get prejudiced at all during India/Pakistan matches.

 

[Syed1]

Funny comedy sketch rooted in reality.

 

[Kroll]

No doubt, people should be able to follow their own country regardless of religion or status but I also notice the ott disdain Indian muslims try to show off towards Pakistan like referenced in the video to show that they’re loyal to India.

 

[hussain.r97]

Most Indian Muslims I met hate Pakistan in fact the ones who had should some respect or even love were the Sikhs and even some Hindus

Sikhs, from my experience, are probably the most pro-Pakistani Indians out there. They all watch Pakistani shows, listen to Pakistani music, etc. They also seem to hate the Indian government (both Congress and BJP) and take a pro-Pakistan stance on multiple issues. Some Sikh collegues of mine (from an internship I did) constantly post in praise of Imran Khan, including praise on his stance on the Kashmir issue, and his "small men in big offices" tweet against Modi.

The Indians with the most hate for Pakistan seem to mostly be Indian Muslims (I don't know if they genuinely hate Pakistan, or just feel the need to prove that they are Indians), Gujaratis, and people from Mumbai/Maharastra area.

 

[enkidu_]

Sikhs, from my experience, are probably the most pro-Pakistani Indians out there. They all watch Pakistani shows, listen to Pakistani music, etc. They also seem to hate the Indian government (both Congress and BJP) and take a pro-Pakistan stance on multiple issues. Some Sikh collegues of mine (from an internship I did) constantly post in praise of Imran Khan, including praise on his stance on the Kashmir issue, and his "small men in big offices" tweet against Modi.

The Indians with the most hate for Pakistan seem to mostly be Indian Muslims (I don't know if they genuinely hate Pakistan, or just feel the need to prove that they are Indians), Gujaratis, and people from Mumbai/Maharastra area.

Many pro Khalistan sentiments in the Sikh diaspora, on Facebook tons of them have a profile picture of Bhindrawale and are rebutting Master Tara Singh's old policy of cosmetic Hindu-Sikh unity as basically an anti Islam/Pakistan front and so on, but Hindu Punjabis on the other hand are perhaps those who hate Pak the most out of all Indians (which says something in itself), because they think that Partition took out all their businesses in Lahore, Rawalpindi, Jhelum, etc

Gujuratis it's probably the Modi effect while Mumbai because of terrorism, but Hindu Punjabis it's congenital to their being.

That's why Bollywood has always been so much anti Pak, because it's heavily dominated by these Hindu Punjabi of the Khatri castes with roots in West Punjab/modern day Pak (Kapoor, Dhawan, Kohli, Malhotra etc all these names will always be anti Pak by default). In fact it's the Khan's who brought down the anti Pak angle a bit in the late 90s/early 2000s, and it's again because they have family ties with Pak contrarily to your average Indian Muslim who gets bullied for transporting a cow.

 

[slipcatch]

Was introduced to his comedy by an Indian Muslim.

Here is another one from him.

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/Or9oV8QSiO4?start=46" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture" allowfullscreen></iframe>

 

[PakLFC]

I remember many years ago I knew a guy who was a Muslim from India.

When it came to cricket he would always support India, yet had the cheek to question why Pakistan wouldn't help Indian Muslims when there were in trouble in India.

Pak does not owe Indian Muslim's anything or vice versa. Those people who carried the burden of independence have mostly died out. Last many generations rightfully couldn't care less of how the two countries were formed. The irony is that Indian Muslim's support the atrocities of their army in IoK yet expect our sympathy when Hindu fundo's are bashing them. Telling them that is enough to shut their mouths. We divorced them permanently in 1947 fully realising the consequences that is all there is to it. The few Pakistanis I know who have/had relatives in India abandoned them a long time back. Pakistan created in the name of the kalimah is much more stronger then any other relationship.

 

[Itachi]

Your own personal assertion that Muslims you came across put their religion above the law of the land is meaningless. It would be like me saying every Hindu I have ever come across calls himself Bob and pretends to be a Christian.

You are entitled to your view that Pak posters are more liberal, by the same token I find many Indian posters virulent Hindutvas and thus have no desire to be 'liberal' towards them. Good day to you sir and have a nice day posting.

My opinion was towards UK Muslims only, based upon personal experience. The rest, whether from Pakistan, Tunis or Morocco, I have seen that they don't carry the hypocrisy that does exist in UK Muslims.

This is another observation. In all past threads, you have accused indian people of hindutva radicals and all that but you can't take slightest criticism whether it can be valid or not.

 

[Madplayer]

The ones i knew did.

I would have to say that they must be exceptions to the general rule.

 

[Bewal Express]

I would have to say that they must be exceptions to the general rule.

It was a family of doctors

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

My opinion was towards UK Muslims only, based upon personal experience. The rest, whether from Pakistan, Tunis or Morocco, I have seen that they don't carry the hypocrisy that does exist in UK Muslims.

This is another observation. In all past threads, you have accused indian people of hindutva radicals and all that but you can't take slightest criticism whether it can be valid or not.

Pointing out that your personal assertions about UK Muslims was not really validation for your own argument isn't me being unable to take criticism, it's just common sense when you are bringing an argument you have some neutral data to back it up. I was making the comparison that I could do the same if I wanted to with regard to my personal experiences with Hindus. You should read and understand the point before jumping to conclusions.

 

[Napa]

That made my day .... Mughal Elite and foreign descent ehh ? )

On a serious note - People then go about wondering perplexed why there is so much backlash against muslims worldwide when supposedly well educated posters have such abominable views.
[MENTION=142162]Napa[/MENTION] [MENTION=76058]cricketjoshila[/MENTION]

Some people have a very romantic idea of the Mughal Empire. In reality it was a short-lived empire, existing for no more than 180 years (from Babur to Auranzeb). In comparison the Chola Empire (though geographically more limited) existed for 700 years.

I doubt many South Asians have any idea who the Mongols were.

 

[troodon]

If Indian Hindus have nothing in common with Pak Muslims like many Pak posters claim, then Indian Muslims also have nothing to do with Pak Muslims.

I owuld say most Indian Muslims look similar to Bangladeshis. I don't understand this fascination with Pakistan. Outside of religion, they have nothing in common. Regarding language, Urdu is a foreign language to most Pak muslims. Paks just adopted an Indian language.

Outside of Muhajirs, Indian and Pak Muslims have nothing in common except religion. At least with angladesh, Indian Muslims share both religion and looks.

 

[GBK_Fan]

It was a family of doctors

Most of the educated ones/ well off do support India. If they have family in Kashmir they won’t post it online. The few that do get a very hostile reception from their Kashmiri brethren. Posters here are overwhelmingly pro Pakistan and don’t seem to acknowledge that there are sections in their society who don’t agree with them

 

[JaDed]

Yes. He is an idiot and not a likeable person.

He is definitely not an idiot, he has tremendous respect for art and knowledge about the same, mind you he has friends of Pakistani origin and visits them regularly in NY , if anything he is a progressive Indian.

 

[TM Riddle]

Some people have a very romantic idea of the Mughal Empire. In reality it was a short-lived empire, existing for no more than 180 years (from Babur to Auranzeb). In comparison the Chola Empire (though geographically more limited) existed for 700 years.

I doubt many South Asians have any idea who the Mongols were.

From Babar to Aurangzeb, really?
What school did you go to?

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Some people have a very romantic idea of the Mughal Empire. In reality it was a short-lived empire, existing for no more than 180 years (from Babur to Auranzeb). In comparison the Chola Empire (though geographically more limited) existed for 700 years.

I doubt many South Asians have any idea who the Mongols were.

Empires come to an end, but culture can linger on for much longer. I would say the Mughal culture is still very evident in Pakistan, and probably India too, from language, architecture down to food and dress. You could say the same about the British empire really, that is how we are conversing on this medium after all.

 

[Syed1]

From Babar to Aurangzeb, really?
What school did you go to?

I don't remember correctly but in Pak studies we were told it took nearly 150 years after Aurangzeb for the Mughal empire to finally die away completely.

 

[Azzurri]

I came across two kinds as of yet. One you are supreme nationalists and at times get too far showing their loyalties towards India while second type are kind of anti Indians and have deep sympathies for Pakistan.
Speaking from my personal experience

 

[TM Riddle]

I don't remember correctly but in Pak studies we were told it took nearly 150 years after Aurangzeb for the Mughal empire to finally die away completely.

That's correct.

 

[enkidu_]

If Indian Hindus have nothing in common with Pak Muslims like many Pak posters claim, then Indian Muslims also have nothing to do with Pak Muslims.

I owuld say most Indian Muslims look similar to Bangladeshis. I don't understand this fascination with Pakistan. Outside of religion, they have nothing in common. Regarding language, Urdu is a foreign language to most Pak muslims. Paks just adopted an Indian language.

Outside of Muhajirs, Indian and Pak Muslims have nothing in common except religion. At least with angladesh, Indian Muslims share both religion and looks.

They have in common the religion, which in pre-modern times was the main vector of identity, that's why in Pak a Punjabi feels closer to those Muhajirs you talk about than he'd feel close to a Punjabi Sikh of India like Harbhajan Singh or a Punjabi Hindu like the Bollywood actors/Virat Kohli, which is the reason they slaughtered each other when foreign authority (Mughals or British) didn't put pressure anymore.

 

[CricketCartoons]

They have in common the religion, which in pre-modern times was the main vector of identity, that's why in Pak a Punjabi feels closer to those Muhajirs you talk about than he'd feel close to a Punjabi Sikh of India like Harbhajan Singh or a Punjabi Hindu like the Bollywood actors/Virat Kohli, which is the reason they slaughtered each other when foreign authority (Mughals or British) didn't put pressure anymore.

The main vector of identity is money and power, otherwise people from same religion would not be killing each other because of sectarian differences while their religion talks about being united and peaceful.

 

[Napa]

From Babar to Aurangzeb, really?
What school did you go to?

I went to school in Delhi.

Auranzeb's Deccan wars depleted the treasury and army of the Mughal empire. Few people know the names of the emperors who followed him, because they presided over an empire that had lost its strength.

After the death of Aurangzeb, the Marathas began an expansion northward. They crossed the Narmada, the traditional boundary between northern plains and peninsula, and marched into Delhi itself. Within a decade, the Mughals were confined to Delhi itself and had to release the grandson of Shivaji, Shahu, from captivity. By 1758, the Marathas had reached Delhi, Multan and Peshawar.

The Mughal empire was split in small kingdoms, with the Nizam of Hyderabad, Nawab of Oudh and Nawab of Bengal quick to assert the independence of their lands.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mughal–Maratha_Wars#Aftermath_of_the_war

Wherever you went to school, they didn't do a good job teaching history.

 

[Napa]

I don't remember correctly but in Pak studies we were told it took nearly 150 years after Aurangzeb for the Mughal empire to finally die away completely.

That's correct.

Just bad history. Though Bahadur Shah was a Mughal Emperor, by his time the "Empire" had shrunk to the Delhi.

He was a nominal Emperor, as the Mughal Empire existed in name only and his authority was limited only to the city of Delhi (Shahjahanbad).

In 1719, 12 years after Auranzeb's death, a Maratha Army of sixteen thousand Maratha horsemen led by Balaji Vishwanath and Hussain Ali Khan defeated the Mughal Army in Delhi and overthrew the Mughal Emperor Farrukhsiyar. In his place "a more pliable puppet, Rafi-ul-darjat" was installed as Emperor.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balaji_Vishwanath#Northward_expansion_of_the_Maratha_power

By all means keep believing "Pak studies" that the Mughal Empire continued for 150 years after Auranzeb's death.

 

[Swashbuckler]

I don't remember correctly but in Pak studies we were told it took nearly 150 years after Aurangzeb for the Mughal empire to finally die away completely.

You are spot on. Aurangzeb was the last of the major Mughal Emperors, after him were minor Mughals. The territories shrunk, power waned, economy weakened, central administration collapsed, mediocre rulers emerged, no more feared by other regional powers but they still lingered on till 1857. During the Sepoy Mutiny the Mughal domains were hardly a 10 km diameter around their Delhi fort but the rebels proclaimed Bahadur Shah Zaffar as their nominal head in the fight for Independence.

 

[TM Riddle]

Just bad history. Though Bahadur Shah was a Mughal Emperor, by his time the "Empire" had shrunk to the Delhi.



In 1719, 12 years after Auranzeb's death, a Maratha Army of sixteen thousand Maratha horsemen led by Balaji Vishwanath and Hussain Ali Khan defeated the Mughal Army in Delhi and overthrew the Mughal Emperor Farrukhsiyar. In his place "a more pliable puppet, Rafi-ul-darjat" was installed as Emperor.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balaji_Vishwanath#Northward_expansion_of_the_Maratha_power

By all means keep believing "Pak studies" that the Mughal Empire continued for 150 years after Auranzeb's death.

You claimed the empire existed from Babar to Aurangzeb when even an 8th grade student in India could tell you that it lasted till 1857.

Then you changed goalposts calling the later Mughal emperors weaklings(which btw they were but doesn't change the fact that the nominal suzerainty of the Delhi Emperor remained intact until the dethroning of Bahadur Shah Zafar by the British). Fine let's play by your rules then. Name me 3 Chola emperors apart from Rajendra and Rajaraja of whose glorious 700 years rule you mentioned so affectionately earlier despite there being a strong scholarly consensus that the earlier Chola rulers had nothing to do with the imperial Cholas of later times.

And next time please don't Wikipedia me.
Thanks.

 

[Napa]

You claimed the empire existed from Babar to Aurangzeb when even an 8th grade student in India could tell you that it lasted till 1857.

Then you changed goalposts calling the later Mughal emperors weaklings(which btw they were but doesn't change the fact that the nominal suzerainty of the Delhi Emperor remained intact until the dethroning of Bahadur Shah Zafar by the British). Fine let's play by your rules then. Name me 3 Chola emperors apart from Rajendra and Rajaraja of whose glorious 700 years rule you mentioned so affectionately earlier despite there being a strong scholarly consensus that the earlier Chola rulers had nothing to do with the imperial Cholas of later times.

And next time please don't Wikipedia me.
Thanks.

You can quibble about semantics all you want but the fact remains that after Aurangzeb the power of the Mughal Empire was over. I like dealing in facts that mean something, not semantics.

I assume you believe the British Empire is still around.

If you think Wikipedia has wrong information then you are welcome to correct it.

 

[the Great Khan]

in my experience Gujrati Muslims hate Pakistan and would rather support India till the end, even if Modi smacks them around the head. Outside of Gujrat its pretty fluid. Ive met soouthern indians who dont mind Pakistan, Goans who love it and Kutchis who are hard core fans..

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

in my experience Gujrati Muslims hate Pakistan and would rather support India till the end, even if Modi smacks them around the head. Outside of Gujrat its pretty fluid. Ive met soouthern indians who dont mind Pakistan, Goans who love it and Kutchis who are hard core fans..

To be fair, in my book an Indian Muslim should support India. Muslim history in India is older than Pakistan, they have as much if not more right to support their nation as anyone else. The only issue I would have is that they shouldn't feel it necessary to express hatred for Pakistan to prove their patriotism. It could be argued that they have a legitimate reason to hate Pakistan because once the new country was created, it basically left those behind as a very weakened minority.

 

[enkidu_]

The main vector of identity is money and power, otherwise people from same religion would not be killing each other because of sectarian differences while their religion talks about being united and peaceful.

Money/power don't make a cultural identity but a sub-identity within a society ("social class").

Yes peoples living near to each other are more prone to kill each other, you have uncovered a great metaphysical truth, and it's also true that the first murder in Abrahamic history was brother on brother, and there's the whole inter-familial tussles in Hindu mythology/epics as well, and it's again true that Islam promotes egalitarianism within its membership while Hinduism basically makes virtual slaves out of large proportions of its adherents on the basis of caste.

 

[saadibaba]

I am yet to meet an Indian Muslim in person who likes or supports Pakistan in any way. On the contrary they seem to be the most bitter and full of venom when it comes to anything Pakistani. Its almost like they are constantly trying to justify to themselves their forefathers decision to stay back in India rather than migrate by continuingly pointing out the problems in Pakistan. Its as if they are having such a great time in India. They seem to feel a need to constantly show their anti-Pakistan attitude to their Hindu countrymen so they don't get targeted as being less patriotic or hear taunts like "Go back to Pakistan". Feel sorry for them tbh, they seem to be carrying a lot of historically psychological and emotional baggage it seems.

 

[the Great Khan]

I am yet to meet an Indian Muslim in person who likes or supports Pakistan in any way. On the contrary they seem to be the most bitter and full of venom when it comes to anything Pakistani. Its almost like they are constantly trying to justify to themselves their forefathers decision to stay back in India rather than migrate by continuingly pointing out the problems in Pakistan. Its as if they are having such a great time in India. They seem to feel a need to constantly show their anti-Pakistan attitude to their Hindu countrymen so they don't get targeted as being less patriotic or hear taunts like "Go back to Pakistan". Feel sorry for them tbh, they seem to be carrying a lot of historically psychological and emotional baggage it seems.

yup. My experience is similar. The constant anti pakistan rhetoric is ridiculous. One of the interesting comments my wife faced was "oh you dont look like a pakistani" and her reply was "what does a pakistani look like?" and the response was 2 erm oh you know different"... in other words a pakistani to them is a kashmiri origin person from up north lol..

 

[CricketCartoons]

Money/power don't make a cultural identity but a sub-identity within a society ("social class").

Yes peoples living near to each other are more prone to kill each other, you have uncovered a great metaphysical truth, and it's also true that the first murder in Abrahamic history was brother on brother, and there's the whole inter-familial tussles in Hindu mythology/epics as well, and it's again true that Islam promotes egalitarianism within its membership while Hinduism basically makes virtual slaves out of large proportions of its adherents on the basis of caste.

you are trying to wash away the sectarian killings within religions as a collateral damage of having to stay together. what makes the god abiding followers to go against the teachings of their god/s and prophets and massacre those with whom they have only a minor difference of interpretation of faith? why is an identity based on religion so weak that it cannot even pass the basic tenets of its religion? because there is a greater god than what they follow on paper.

 

[CricketCartoons]

yup. My experience is similar. The constant anti pakistan rhetoric is ridiculous. One of the interesting comments my wife faced was "oh you dont look like a pakistani" and her reply was "what does a pakistani look like?" and the response was 2 erm oh you know different"... in other words a pakistani to them is a kashmiri origin person from up north lol..

oh strange. when someone says "you don't look indian" we take it as a compliment.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

you are trying to wash away the sectarian killings within religions as a collateral damage of having to stay together. what makes the god abiding followers to go against the teachings of their god/s and prophets and massacre those with whom they have only a minor difference of interpretation of faith? why is an identity based on religion so weak that it cannot even pass the basic tenets of its religion? because there is a greater god than what they follow on paper.

The realities of day to day life supersede those of the afterlife for the vast majority of people, hence you will get Muslims leaving their lands to seek a better life among the unbelievers where the wealth has shifted in the last few centuries. Those left behind don't have riches to argue over so religion is the main currency which will be the sparring ground, hence sectarian disputes arise instead.

 

[enkidu_]

you are trying to wash away the sectarian killings within religions as a collateral damage of having to stay together. what makes the god abiding followers to go against the teachings of their god/s and prophets and massacre those with whom they have only a minor difference of interpretation of faith? why is an identity based on religion so weak that it cannot even pass the basic tenets of its religion? because there is a greater god than what they follow on paper.

It's actually none of your matter, like Hindu nationalists when bashing Islam don't think of internal diversity either (Shudras, Dalits, etc), try to wash Hinduism first, in the real world this identity was strong enough for the partition of Bengal and then Punjab to happen, whatever the pseudo anthropological concerns and mild sociology of the "specialists", and in fact the way after '71 Bengalis didn't either join India nor asked the West Bengalis (majority Hindus) to come into the new State is also a postmortem vindication of the Two Nation Theory :

When Bangladesh gained independence from Pakistan on 16 December 1971, Jinnah’s ‘two-nation theory’, the basis for the creation of Pakistan, was pronounced ‘dead’.

In forming of the nation’s first government, the Bangladesh Awami League (or simply the Awami League) adopted a four-pronged state ideology of nationalism, democracy, socialism and secularism.

However, Bengali ethnicity soon lost influence as a marker of identity for the country’s majority population, their Muslim identity regaining prominence and differentiating them from the Hindus of West Bengal.

Although some political and cultural activists sought early on to propagate a Bengali commonality between Hindus and Muslims, the Indian nationalism of West Bengali Hindus was perceived (and criticized) by the Muslims of Bangladesh as derivative from Hindu mythology

Akhand Akhtar Hossain, "Islamic Resurgence in Bangladesh’s Culture and Politics: Origins, Dynamics and Implications", Journal of Islamic Studies, Volume 23, Issue 2, 1 May 2012, Pages 165–198

But aren't you a Hindu nationalist ? You subscribe to the TNT as well going by Savarkar & co.

 

[Eagle_Eye]

I am yet to meet an Indian Muslim in person who likes or supports Pakistan in any way. On the contrary they seem to be the most bitter and full of venom when it comes to anything Pakistani. Its almost like they are constantly trying to justify to themselves their forefathers decision to stay back in India rather than migrate by continuingly pointing out the problems in Pakistan. Its as if they are having such a great time in India. They seem to feel a need to constantly show their anti-Pakistan attitude to their Hindu countrymen so they don't get targeted as being less patriotic or hear taunts like "Go back to Pakistan". Feel sorry for them tbh, they seem to be carrying a lot of historically psychological and emotional baggage it seems.

Let me throw in Bohra community from Mumbai. They have a very favourable view of Pakistan. My osteopath is one, he supports India and Pakistan! Could be because his wife has roots in Pakistani Bohra community. Also, had interactions with Muslims from Kolkata, so pro Pakistan that you could mistake them for Kashmiris!

Agree in general, .... more loyal than kings own men behaviour is quite evident amongst Gujaratis.

 

[CricketCartoons]

It's actually none of your matter, like Hindu nationalists when bashing Islam don't think of internal diversity either (Shudras, Dalits, etc), try to wash Hinduism first, in the real world this identity was strong enough for the partition of Bengal and then Punjab to happen, whatever the pseudo anthropological concerns and mild sociology of the "specialists", and in fact the way after '71 Bengalis didn't either join India nor asked the West Bengalis (majority Hindus) to come into the new State is also a postmortem vindication of the Two Nation Theory :



Akhand Akhtar Hossain, "Islamic Resurgence in Bangladesh’s Culture and Politics: Origins, Dynamics and Implications", Journal of Islamic Studies, Volume 23, Issue 2, 1 May 2012, Pages 165–198

But aren't you a Hindu nationalist ? You subscribe to the TNT as well going by Savarkar & co.

"none of your matter", "try to wash hinduism first". That is all you can say, because you have no answer.

bengali identity is just another artificial identity like religious identity, where you are taught to think in a certain way, like certain thinks and behave in a certain way. try to use your brain for once, i wasn't advocating supremacy of ethnic identity over religious, but that religious identity is a weak one as the religious followers subscribe to a greater god than one in their books. they may not admit it is another issue, but then the human mind has the great capacity to hold contradictory beliefs.

if religious identity was so strong, there wouldn't be St. Bartholomew's Day massacre when Jesus asked his followers to turn the other cheek, and there wouldn't be Battle of Karbala, when Quran asked to hold firmly the rope of Allah and not to be divided. What made the religious people go against their God? Surely there is something more powerful.

 

[enkidu_]

"none of your matter", "try to wash hinduism first". That is all you can say, because you have no answer.

bengali identity is just another artificial identity like religious identity, where you are taught to think in a certain way, like certain thinks and behave in a certain way. try to use your brain for once, i wasn't advocating supremacy of ethnic identity over religious, but that religious identity is a weak one as the religious followers subscribe to a greater god than one in their books. they may not admit it is another issue, but then the human mind has the great capacity to hold contradictory beliefs.

if religious identity was so strong, there wouldn't be St. Bartholomew's Day massacre when Jesus asked his followers to turn the other cheek, and there wouldn't be Battle of Karbala, when Quran asked to hold firmly the rope of Allah and not to be divided. What made the religious people go against their God? Surely there is something more powerful.

You make no sense whatsoever, looks like your brain is the artificial stuff if you find that both religious and ethnic identities are non-existent, but whatever your speculations the point remains that a nation has been created out of religion in '47 while another nation vindicated its religious identity when after '71 it kept itself separate (I quoted a Bangladeshi academic).

If you fight for religion it doesn't mean that religious identity isn't strong, perhaps the opposite in fact, but then all peoples fight for all kinds of reasons.

Go apply your shady humanism to Dalits instead of lecturing others.

 

[CricketCartoons]

You make no sense whatsoever, looks like your brain is the artificial stuff if you find that both religious and ethnic identities are non-existent, but whatever your speculations the point remains that a nation has been created out of religion in '47 while another nation vindicated its religious identity when after '71 it kept itself separate (I quoted a Bangladeshi academic).

If you fight for religion it doesn't mean that religious identity isn't strong, perhaps the opposite in fact, but then all peoples fight for all kinds of reasons.

Go apply your shady humanism to Dalits instead of lecturing others.

LOL, can't help if you are challenged in your understanding. Artificial doesn't mean non existent. Read it 10 times if it helps. Take your time to understand.

I see you have no counter to how the very people with religious identities rejected the commands of their God/Prophets. Religious identity is a joke. LOL.

 

[enkidu_]

LOL, can't help if you are challenged in your understanding. Artificial doesn't mean non existent. Read it 10 times if it helps. Take your time to understand.

I see you have no counter to how the very people with religious identities rejected the commands of their God/Prophets. Religious identity is a joke. LOL.

The only challenge here is for you to make sense.

Have it come across to your mind that peoples killing each other in the name of religion basically means that religious identity is taken seriously ?

And again, why don't you address the fact that nations have been built in the name of religious identity ? How more "serious" do you want it ?

Muslims and Hindus/Sikhs in Punjab butchering each other in '47 is a proof that, in this regional context at least, religion trumped cultural identities.

In fact I don't even know the point you're trying to make apart from your daily dose of attention-seeking.

 

[slipcatch]

Waiting for Hindu nationalists to bring their big $$$ bills to discredit Mughal's rule in India centuries ago.