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Indian pace bowlers are better than their Pakistani counterparts

hussain123 said:
Usually, the quality of pacers or the whole bowling unit is assessed by how good they are at defending lower totals.if you look at today match, most of south african panicked under the huge scoreboard pressure.it will different ball game when they will have to defend small totals, thats where their actual mettle will be tested.
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Maybe.

But it is not the bowlers' fault that their batsmen put up big scores to defend.

Further, in your example, the South african, the much applauded SA bowlers including the likes of Steyn, Morkel etc were tonked around for more than 300 runs, and on the same pitch, the Indian bowlers, buffered by pressure or no pressure pummelled SA batsmen.

Now if you argue that but the Indian batsmen are unbelievably better than the SA batsmen, well, I don't have any counter argument for that.
 
Bilal7 said:
Lol at Mohit, Umesh, Ishant (!) and Aaron. Shami is carrying them and if India lose him, like Pakistan have lost Junaid, they would get thrashed. Still have to bowl first in this WC.

Junaid, Irfan, Riaz, Gul are much better than this lot.
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You are just overrating our guys. We are rubbish and there is no hope.
 
Nevermind Indian pacers. Even Afg pacers were making the ball talk.
 
Bilal7 said:
Lol at Mohit, Umesh, Ishant (!) and Aaron. Shami is carrying them and if India lose him, like Pakistan have lost Junaid, they would get thrashed. Still have to bowl first in this WC.

Junaid, Irfan, Riaz, Gul are much better than this lot.
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What happened to Gul? Why is he not in the team?
 
Sir Alex said:
Maybe.

But it is not the bowlers' fault that their batsmen put up big scores to defend.

Further, in your example, the South african, the much applauded SA bowlers including the likes of Steyn, Morkel etc were tonked around for more than 300 runs, and on the same pitch, the Indian bowlers, buffered by pressure or no pressure pummelled SA batsmen.

Now if you argue that but the Indian batsmen are unbelievably better than the SA batsmen, well, I don't have any counter argument for that.
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Definitely, the credit should go to the Indian bowling for doing their job of defending whatever big the total their batting setsup for them. I am saying that on wickets which have more than something in their for the bowlers and assuming your batting gets bowled for a meager total,would you trust your bowling to defend that?thats where the difference in quality between the indian pacers with respect to their counterparts needs some contemplation.secondly, indian one day batting is comfortably bettrr than south afrucans, their are just too many match winners in this indian batting lineup.
 
keep understimating our bowlers.... am not complaining lol. instead, it helps our cause, ;-)
 
slice said:
So,SA let this out of form side score 300+ does this mean they are worse than Pakistan ?
You forget that WI were pretty lucky.You must have been asleep if you think that quality wise Pak bowling was poor int that match.
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I think once a side scores 300+, it can't be called out of batting form, India came into the game with some confidence, but had it too easy. I don't think WI were lucky, unless you mean dropped chances. To me, a bowling unit can't be looked in isolation, it has to be combined with fielding support, otherwise it gets very difficult to analyse.
 
Better? I think our bowlers have the advantage of having superb batsmen in the team who are capable enough to put up big scores on the board which results in 'scoreboard pressure'. Pak bowlers unfortunately have to deal with having absolute hack batsmen alogside them who aren't able to do jack.

It's the same as saying Inzamam has 17 of his 25 Test centuries in wins without taking into account the awesome quality of the Pak bowlers he played alongside.
 
slice said:
I never said that they operate exclusively in mid 130s but they often slip into mid 130s like Irfan.Wahab remains more in 140s.
As for stats,well stats don`t tell the whole picture as Pak played most of its matches sin SC and they have a fair few dropped catches and poor fielding to boot.
And as for Sohail Khans death bowling,he has domestic record to back him and matches against India,Bangladesh and England.You are detracting him on one match against WI where the boundaries were small too.

Even if it was an experimental series,this still does not justify your bowling failure.And what of the Australia Test and ODIs before that ?
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Have you heard of change of pace?Yadav avgs 140k plus in most matches.That has been the case since he made his debut.

So where do India plays it matches?Arent they supposed to be playing on pancakes at home all the time?

I dont rate domestic performances by Pak bowlers much because the batting standard is appalling.And out of the matches you quoted only one was an official match.

World cup is an ODI tournament so why are you talking tests here?And when was the last time Pakistan played a test in Australia?
 
Hitman said:
Better? I think our bowlers have the advantage of having superb batsmen in the team who are capable enough to put up big scores on the board which results in 'scoreboard pressure'. Pak bowlers unfortunately have to deal with having absolute hack batsmen alogside them who aren't able to do jack.

It's the same as saying Inzamam has 17 of his 25 Test centuries in wins without taking into account the awesome quality of the Pak bowlers he played alongside.
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That would have been true if we were talking of Pakistan's results only. Also, Pak has bowled first in both the matches so far, so it wasn't like they had to defend low scores. They let the two sides score 300+
 
slice said:
I never said that they operate exclusively in mid 130s but they often slip into mid 130s like Irfan.Wahab remains more in 140s.
As for stats,well stats don`t tell the whole picture as Pak played most of its matches sin SC and they have a fair few dropped catches and poor fielding to boot.
And as for Sohail Khans death bowling,he has domestic record to back him and matches against India,Bangladesh and England.You are detracting him on one match against WI where the boundaries were small too.

Even if it was an experimental series,this still does not justify your bowling failure.And what of the Australia Test and ODIs before that ?
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What a joke. Irfan and Wahab's average pace is always around 135-136kph.

Yadav on the other hand is always around 142 while Aaron averages 145kph in ODIs.
 
hussain123 said:
Definitely, the credit should go to the Indian bowling for doing their job of defending whatever big the total their batting setsup for them. I am saying that on wickets which have more than something in their for the bowlers and assuming your batting gets bowled for a meager total,would you trust your bowling to defend that?thats where the difference in quality between the indian pacers with respect to their counterparts needs some contemplation.secondly, indian one day batting is comfortably bettrr than south afrucans, their are just too many match winners in this indian batting lineup.
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Defending what the batting puts up is the bowling unit's job. Its not like they gave 290 odd runs today and India won by 17 runs. They simply destroyed SA on a true wicket that offered good value for strokes.

Indian bowlers simply can't win - if their spinners do well abroad - then people say it's a spinning wicket/slow wicket.
If their fast bowlers do well - but the winning margin is say less than 30 runs - then people say they can't defend even after having a good score on board.
If their fast bowlers and spinners do well on a true bouncy wicket and trounce the opposition by 130 odd runs - that too a lineup containing amla, ABDV etc - then the criticism is that SA played badly, and that they wouldn't have had they been chasing 125.

Just a question, how many bowling attacks consistently defend scores below 150? I don't recollect Pakistani bowlers doing such a thing in recent memory.
 
Hitman said:
Better? I think our bowlers have the advantage of having superb batsmen in the team who are capable enough to put up big scores on the board which results in 'scoreboard pressure'. Pak bowlers unfortunately have to deal with having absolute hack batsmen alogside them who aren't able to do jack.

It's the same as saying Inzamam has 17 of his 25 Test centuries in wins without taking into account the awesome quality of the Pak bowlers he played alongside.
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Add to that the legendary fielding of Pak which will put Jhonty Rhodes to shame.And the innovative captaincy of Misabh.
 
Pakistani bowling in the wc is very very weak,

Pace might be up there but that's no good if u can't get wickets,

Indian bowling unit has often bowled 100% better then expected in wc games,
and they tend to try a lot of bowlers and in the process you will find a good bowler,

Pak on the other hand tend to stick to a hand few bowlers and only change when there pushed,

Usman shinwari is a 1 name i remember who swung the ball but only got 2 t20 games and never seen again..
 
At the World Cup so far, there has been a huge difference in the quality of bowling from the Indian pacers compared to the Pakistani pace bowlers.

The main differences have been aggression, the use of the bouncer, the length they have bowled and the consistency in line. Pakistan bowlers have been all over the place.
 
Electron said:
What a joke. Irfan and Wahab's average pace is always around 135-136kph.

Yadav on the other hand is always around 142 while Aaron averages 145kph in ODIs.
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Average pace means jack because the slower balls skew the average.
Its the range they mostly bowl in.In this regard Irfan ties with Shami and Yadav.They stay in 135-140 almost as much as they stay in 140+.Wahab tends to be in late 130s and more often early 140s.He wins it in pace and also accuracy these days as Yadav and Shami have a tendency of spray gunning (not always) while Wahab`s short deliveries have a good deal of sting in them.
 
There seems to be a proper thought process and planning to their bowling, unlike ours.
 
Saj said:
At the World Cup so far, there has been a huge difference in the quality of bowling from the Indian pacers compared to the Pakistani pace bowlers.

The main differences have been aggression, the use of the bouncer, the length they have bowled and the consistency in line. Pakistan bowlers have been all over the place.
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I don`t buy this 'all over the place' argument.They have been on the shorter side but those short balls of Irfan and Wahab have caused trouble to both India and WI and do check their economies up to overs 40-fairly good.I think people need to realize that 300 is becoming a par score these days.
 
slice said:
Average pace means jack because the slower balls skew the average.
Its the range they mostly bowl in.In this regard Irfan ties with Shami and Yadav.They stay in 135-140 almost as much as they stay in 140+.Wahab tends to be in late 130s and more often early 140s.He wins it in pace and also accuracy these days as Yadav and Shami have a tendency of spray gunning (not always) while Wahab`s short deliveries have a good deal of sting in them.
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Yadav hardly ever drops to late 130s, while Wahab is a regular mid-130s bowler. Irfan ties with Yadav, but only for his first 3 overs. For the next 7, he is slower than Mohit Sharma.

You clearly have no idea about what you are talking about.
 
liaqat said:
Pakistani bowling in the wc is very very weak,

Pace might be up there but that's no good if u can't get wickets,

Indian bowling unit has often bowled 100% better then expected in wc games,
and they tend to try a lot of bowlers and in the process you will find a good bowler,

Pak on the other hand tend to stick to a hand few bowlers and only change when there pushed,

Usman shinwari is a 1 name i remember who swung the ball but only got 2 t20 games and never seen again..
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Poorly thought out post.

The reason for not getting wickets is dropped catches and come to think of it-it has been a very bowling unfriendly WC so far-not many wickets.
 
Electron said:
Yadav hardly ever drops to late 130s, while Wahab is a regular mid-130s bowler. Irfan ties with Yadav, but only for his first 3 overs. For the next 7, he is slower than Mohit Sharma.

You clearly have no idea about what you are talking about.
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Oh,so Wahab never bowled in 140s ? Forgot he India game ? Irfan in his later spells is can still bowl 135-137 although you do see some 132-134 stuff as well but that is not slower than Mohit Sharma.Heck,Shami and Yadav are also often seen bowling in this range (though not exclusively,in case you get stung up again).
 
the Great Khan said:
no it was the result of them planning ahead and ensuring their team had the preparation. When you have the power they have you can make things happen!
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Ask yourself a simple question.

BCCI was as weak and useless in the 90s as PCB is now. What has changed?

Why are we still poor why they have become the most powerful organization in the cricketing world?

We should take inspiration and follow their template, rather be a bunch of moaning sour grapes.
 
Mamoon said:
Ask yourself a simple question.

BCCI was as weak and useless in the 90s as PCB is now. What has changed?

Why are we still poor why they have become the most powerful organization in the cricketing world?

We should take inspiration and follow their template, rather be a bunch of moaning sour grapes.
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They have more money,IPL while we have terrorism and corruption.
 
slice said:
Oh,so Wahab never bowled in 140s ? Forgot he India game ? Irfan in his later spells is can still bowl 135-137 although you do see some 132-134 stuff as well but that is not slower than Mohit Sharma.Heck,Shami and Yadav are also often seen bowling in this range (though not exclusively,in case you get stung up again).
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There is a difference. For Wahab, more than half his deliveries are in mid 130s. For Yadav, that number will be less than 10%. Here's your typical Wahab graph, from his last match. Speeds are low not because of slower balls, but because he starts his first 5 overs bowling a gentle mid 130s pace.

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Here is Yadav graph from today in comparison. If you can't spot the difference, then it is because you don't want to.

yad.JPG
 
slice said:
Average pace means jack because the slower balls skew the average.
Its the range they mostly bowl in.In this regard Irfan ties with Shami and Yadav.They stay in 135-140 almost as much as they stay in 140+.Wahab tends to be in late 130s and more often early 140s.He wins it in pace and also accuracy these days as Yadav and Shami have a tendency of spray gunning (not always) while Wahab`s short deliveries have a good deal of sting in them.
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LOL at this post.In ODIs Shami is miles ahead of Riaz or Irfan.Go look up stats.

And here is what Wahab Riaz did vs WI

Fastest ball 90.3MPH Avg 84.4 MPH

http://www.espncricinfo.com/icc-cricket-world-cup-2015/engine/match/656417.html?view=hawkeye

Yadav today

Fastest ball 91.4 MPH avg speed 88.4

Even in the last match vs India Yadav on avg speed of 87.5 was as fast as Wahab who had avg speed of 87.6 .Wahab had the faster fastest ball ofcourse.

And btw Yadav has maintained these speeds for over 5 years.a long time.Wahab bowls these fast spells once in a while.
 
Two new balls, powerplays, sweeps, scoops and whatever else, the basics of good bowling remain the same as they have ever done.

Why were the likes of Wasim and Waqar so good? Because they knew how to bowl a Yorker, they planned for each batsman, they bowled at the stumps and they kept it simple.
 
Mamoon said:
Ask yourself a simple question.

BCCI was as weak and useless in the 90s as PCB is now. What has changed?

Why are we still poor why they have become the most powerful organization in the cricketing world?

We should take inspiration and follow their template, rather be a bunch of moaning sour grapes.
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Agree. BCCI has had the advantage of a huge support system no doubt. But Pak has the same - I mean the most important entity to make money is Fan support which Pakistan does have (of course I am aware that unfortunately cricket is not being played there).

BCCI has made some good use of the money they are able to generate (green pitches, fitness trainers at domestic level, good grounds for diving, IPL). PCB should actually call on BCCI for help given the situation they are in. There is no rivalry between boards (rivalry is only on the field). A paradigm shift is required from a thinking point of view.

Also I think the PCB unprofessionalism has crept into the players also. How many of the current Pak players can you call professional (work ethic wise). Misbah, YK (in tests)? The ground fielding also lacks effort.
 
cricketjoshila said:
And btw Yadav has maintained these speeds for over 5 years.a long time.Wahab bowls these fast spells once in a while.
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This. Last time Wahab bowled this fast was in Champion's trophy. Throughout the series in UAE, Wahab's pace was gentle medium. Yadav on the other hand was bowling 144+ average against Sri Lanka, continued bowling fast in Aussie Test series, and even now, is bowling 142 average effortlessly.
 
Electron said:
This. Last time Wahab bowled this fast was in Champion's trophy. Throughout the series in UAE, Wahab's pace was gentle medium. Yadav on the other hand was bowling 144+ average against Sri Lanka, continued bowling fast in Aussie Test series, and even now, is bowling 142 average effortlessly.
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Wahab was coming back from injury in UAE, and mostly saves his effort for World tournaments

Best i have seen him bowl is in 2011 WC and 2013 CT, and is looking decent in 2015 WC

Wahab though never was gentle medium in UAE he was 137-142 with odd 145 kph delivery

Average pace wise he isnt faster than Yadav, but has better peak pace, if i had to pick one of Yadav and Wahab i would pick Wahab despite his lack of skill

I would take M. Shami over any current Pakistan bowler

Would take Mohit over Sohail khan anyday
 
Both Indian and pakistan team have crap bowling attack. when you have a cushion of 300+ runs your body lanuage certainly changed and you looked more charged up. Let our bowlers bowl first in a match or be in a situation where less than 250 needed to be defend. Then we can decide whether our attack is better than pakistan or not. I bet even this pakistan attack will look like world beater if they have to defend a mammoth total of 300+runs.
TBH Afghanistan pace attack, especially with new ball, is the best in Asia, far better than what indian or pakistan bowlers has to offer
 
Our bowlers are good when they are not put under pressure like today, SA started very slowly which allowed us to bowl how we wanted.

Had they come out and bludgeoned us in the first 5 overs our pacers (like aus openers and McCullum will do) we would have started to bowl some very bad lines making a 300+ score look like 250
 
It has always been like this IN ICC TOURNAMENTS... most of the times
 
Electron said:
Yadav hardly ever drops to late 130s, while Wahab is a öregular mid-130s bowler. Irfan ties with Yadav, but only for his first 3 overs. For the next 7, he is slower than Mohit Sharma.

You clearly have no idea about what you are talking about.
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Wahab is a mid 130 s bowler wth have u been drinking.Wahab's avg speed is around 139 and a highest speed of nearly 150.Wahab also bowls a 'heavy ball' and hits the bat hard even with balls of nearly 140.the only adv umesh has over wahab is that he swings the new ball better but wahab makes up for that with better control.wahab is the better bowler. Aaron is faster but has no control whatsoever.
as far as irfan is considered he isnt fully fit.
 
lol bilal is so delusional

Pakistan is nothing without the chuckers Ajmal and hafeez and they're showing it right now
 
Reverseswing97 said:
Wahab is a mid 130 s bowler wth have u been drinking.Wahab's avg speed is around 139 and a highest speed of nearly 150.Wahab also bowls a 'heavy ball' and hits the bat hard even with balls of nearly 140.the only adv umesh has over wahab is that he swings the new ball better but wahab makes up for that with better control.wahab is the better bowler. Aaron is faster but has no control whatsoever.
as far as irfan is considered he isnt fully fit.
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This is when he bowls at his fastest (few matches in ICC tourneys). On most days, he averages 137 and tops at 147. Why don't you check and speeds and then make a call?
 
I dont know what is this craze about speed? speed is nothing without skills. Afghan bowlers by far are the best in asia when it come to new ball skills and they are quick too. i will take them any day over yadav, shami or wahab, Irfan.
 
Enforcer said:
Both Indian and pakistan team have crap bowling attack. when you have a cushion of 300+ runs your body lanuage certainly changed and you looked more charged up. Let our bowlers bowl first in a match or be in a situation where less than 250 needed to be defend. Then we can decide whether our attack is better than pakistan or not. I bet even this pakistan attack will look like world beater if they have to defend a mammoth total of 300+runs.
TBH Afghanistan pace attack, especially with new ball, is the best in Asia, far better than what indian or pakistan bowlers has to offer
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So you didn't see the WC 2011 or CT where we defended/restricted teams to low scores?
 
Enforcer said:
I dont know what is this craze about speed? speed is nothing without skills. Afghan bowlers by far are the best in asia when it come to new ball skills and they are quick too. i will take them any day over yadav, shami or wahab, Irfan.
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Something that keeps us fans happy. Doesn't mean much tbh.
 
Electron said:
This is when he bowls at his fastest (few matches in ICC tourneys). On most days, he averages 137 and tops at 147. Why don't you check and speeds and then make a call?
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I suggest u check the aus series as a recent example bf u comment that he only bowls fast at icc tournaments.The Wi match was not a typical representation of wahab's pace
 
Reverseswing97 said:
I suggest u check the aus series as a recent example bf u comment that he only bowls fast at icc tournaments.The Wi match was not a typical representation of wahab's pace
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I have checked all his series. One against Australia in UAE, series against Lanka, NZ.. all of them. He didn't average 140kph in one match, and his pace averaged 136-137 range(similalr to what it was against WI)

Cricinfo documents all the speeds. You may want to check them if you doubt me.
 
Electron said:
^Check his speeds I meant.
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You are using speeds from different matches , the two teams played a match on the same pitch , similar conditions , same speed guns , and Pakistans slowest bowler was just as fast as India's fastest , not that it matters much but i don't know why you are debating something that is obviously not true.
 
How many drop chances off Pakistani Fast bowlers I guess 12 in 2 matches, that's more than a side " catches win matches" if applied then a different scenario & a story.
 
ethan hunt said:
You are using speeds from different matches , the two teams played a match on the same pitch , similar conditions , same speed guns , and Pakistans slowest bowler was just as fast as India's fastest , not that it matters much but i don't know why you are debating something that is obviously not true.
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Oh, so all that matters is Wahab's pace in that match against India. He bowled at his fastest that day, and even then managed to equal Umesh in pace.

Anyways, the truth is out there, so believe whatever you want to believe.
 
Electron said:
Oh, so all that matters is Wahab's pace in that match against India. He bowled at his fastest that day, and even then managed to equal Umesh in pace.

Anyways, the truth is out there, so believe whatever you want to believe.
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B-UwPK1CUAANLJH.png large.jpg
Cmon man speed doesn't even matter if the team is not performing , matches India 2 , pakistan 0 so far , speed Pakistan 2 , india 0 :mj
 
ethan hunt said:
Cmon man speed doesn't even matter if the team is not performing , matches India 2 , pakistan 0 so far , speed Pakistan 2 , india 0 :mj
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Yes, you have the bragging rights for top speed, and would most likely keep it till the end. :sanga
 
[MENTION=134240]Electron[/MENTION] I dont know If you remember or not but yadav used to be very quick back in 2012-13. I remember an ODI match between India vs Australia where he bowled multiple 150+ deliveries. He was breathtaking-fast on that particular match. just checked , it was in Adelaide.

11.6
Yadav to Clarke, no run, punched off the front foot and he can't beat the packed off-side field, 149.9 kph
13.4
Yadav to Forrest, no run, that was quick, at 150, he stays back and defends
13.6
Yadav to Clarke, 2 runs, 148 kph, swings it in and bowls full, he clips it wide of mid-on and the fielder dives and cuts it off
15.1
Yadav to Clarke, 1 run, 148 kph, on a good length and he stays back and defends to the off side
15.2
Yadav to Forrest, no run, 149 kph, pace like fire, hurries him on the back foot to defend
15.3
Yadav to Forrest, no run, 148 kph, fuller in length and he pushes it on the front foot towards mid-off
15.5
Yadav to Forrest, no run, that was a real fizzer at 149 kph, Forrest did extremely well to bend his knee and sway out of the way
15.6
Yadav to Forrest, no run, 148 kph, he stays back and pushes this one to cover
17.6
Yadav to Hussey, 1 run, 149.9kph, drifts on the body and he shuffles and clips him down to short square leg
19.1
Yadav to Forrest, 1 run, 151 kph, Forrest chops it to the off side and charges off, tip and run, excellent running
19.3
Yadav to Forrest, no run, 148.9 kph, bowls it nice and straight and he ensures he doesn't give him room, clipped to short midwicket
21.3
Yadav to Hussey, 1 run, 149 kph, he thrashes it to the off side again, short and wide
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http://www.espncricinfo.com/commonwealth-bank-series-2012/engine/match/518959.html?innings=1;view=commentary

I have seen a lot of wahab, but he was never consistently that quick even in a single match.
 
ethan hunt said:
You are using speeds from different matches , the two teams played a match on the same pitch , similar conditions , same speed guns , and Pakistans slowest bowler was just as fast as India's fastest , not that it matters much but i don't know why you are debating something that is obviously not true.
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Though speed alone is not everything in cricket but stats belie your claim :)

Wahab's average speed in match 1 was 87.6 mph and 84.8 mph in match 2

Umesh Yadav's average speed in match 1 was 87.5 mph and 88.4 mph in match 2

In fact on average speeds, Umesh's spell today was perhaps the fastest in the tournament :)

You can be happy with Wahab's 154 kmph fastest delivery though.
 
Electron said:
There is a difference. For Wahab, more than half his deliveries are in mid 130s. For Yadav, that number will be less than 10%. Here's your typical Wahab graph, from his last match. Speeds are low not because of slower balls, but because he starts his first 5 overs bowling a gentle mid 130s pace.

View attachment 54503

Here is Yadav graph from today in comparison. If you can't spot the difference, then it is because you don't want to.

View attachment 54504
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Game set and match.

Brilliant argument.

Can't argue against that one.
 
Enforcer said:
[MENTION=134240]Electron[/MENTION] I dont know If you remember or not but yadav used to be very quick back in 2012-13. I remember an ODI match between India vs Australia where he bowled multiple 150+ deliveries. He was breathtaking-fast on that particular match. just checked , it was in Adelaide.



http://www.espncricinfo.com/commonwealth-bank-series-2012/engine/match/518959.html?innings=1;view=commentary

I have seen a lot of wahab, but he was never consistently that quick even in a single match.
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Yeah, Yadav used to be Milne/Aaron, but has sacrificed his peaks for more control. Right choice imo, has always looked more impressive with a short run-up.
 
Electron said:
I have checked all his series. One against Australia in UAE, series against Lanka, NZ.. all of them. He didn't average 140kph in one match, and his pace averaged 136-137 range(similalr to what it was against WI)

Cricinfo documents all the speeds. You may want to check them if you doubt me.
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Link dena
 
Real_Steel said:
All this talk about Pakistani pace bowling being good and Indian bowlers being trundlers - IMO the current India pace bowlers are better than their Pakistan counterparts (Junaid included)

Shami and Umesh are 140+ and move the ball of the seam. Mohit S is line/length and I would put him in the Gavin Larsen mould (slightly more pacey). Bhuvi can swing the ball(once fit) - which is an asset in NZ as Southee showed vs England.
More importantly these guys look clinical, focussed and a lot fitter than Irfan, Sohail and Wahab.

Irfan, the bounce is discomforting but the threat is not that great since he never looks like bowling 10. Thats more headache than help to the captain (you have to hide him on the field). Sohail is just about okay, but seems to put his foot out the shoe and gets tonked. Wahab IMO seems focussed and doing well, but cant control the new ball.

All in all, I would stick my neck out and say Indian pacers are better at this moment.

Thoughts?
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Maybe they are better but I wouldn't make that assertion based on how they bowled under lights where there was more seam movement for longer spells. During the day SA bowlers lost the swing very early, whereas at night it seems to move around for longer.
 
Yadav is a genuine quick and maintains a good speed in entire match. Even in test series. But speed is one thing. Main thing is that Pakistani pacers are bowling too short. You have to allow it to swing but then Pakistani don't really swing new ball much.

They should watch Southee's spell to learn how to bowl.
 
The obsession with bowling fast needs to end.

Yes bowling quick is great, bowling bouncers looks good but what's the point if you are getting hit all over.

Remember most of Wasim and Waqar's victims were out lbw or bowled !
 
Saj said:
The obsession with bowling fast needs to end.

Yes bowling quick is great, bowling bouncers looks good but what's the point if you are getting hit all over.

Remember most of Wasim and Waqar's victims were out lbw or bowled !
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Agreed the obsession of bowling fast has led to a detorition of other skills bigtime.Swinging the new ball should be the emphasis
 
Reverseswing97 said:
What did i tell u.wahab is faster and also the better bowler
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Ok, I'll stop this speed race after this post.

I do accept that Wahab averaged 138-142 kph in that series, but Umesh was averaging 144+ against Sri Lanka during the same period. Not to forget that Umesh's average pace even in Tests was greater than Wahab's pace in ODIs.

As the knowledgeable posters above said, speed means nothing, so let's not argue and stick to what we think is true. :)
 
Can't we discuss fast bowling without Speed gun? To be an outstanding pace bowler, one needs average speed of 135km with occasional burst of 140+km ........... there are at least 1,000 pacers in world within that range or faster.

I was extremely impressed with the discipline of Indian pacers - they used the new ball perfectly, they bowled according to field & kept pressure. I think, there was hardly any "free boundary" ball in first 10 overs. SAF did hit some boundaries, but some of those were risky top edges.

I have hardly seen more unplanned bowling then what the PAK pacers did in the WI match. In a day match, they put WI in & for first 10-12 overs, hardly any ball was pitched on business area. Gayle & Smith are basically sloggers, they tried to over power the short balls & gifted their wickets.

Those who are criticizing bowling first strategy has very little cricket knowledge. On that track, the way WI pacers started, batting at 10 AM start, PAK would have been booked for under 100. I understand, PAK batsmen are struggling to adjust in the condition after always playing on those UAE tracks, but that excuse hardly fits with the length bowlers are bowling.

Off track - posters should notice the incompetence of PCB & Zaka Ashraf. This fixture was fixed during his tenure & among 14 teams, PAK has the worst fixture - Adelaide, Christchurch, Brisbane, Nelson, Auckland & Adelaide. PAK 'll have to cross the Tasman channel 5 times (before WC they played in NZ) in 6 matches. I understand a bit of cricket - I understand the difference of wickets between these grounds & I understand what PAK batsmen are going through after landing just about 2 weeks before WC & 2 key players already replaced. But, PAK have no justification to question this now ... What I can see in the fixture, there are at least half a million Pakistani who can see that also, but I am sure, the person who was in-charge is Chairman Zaka level buffoon.

Anyway, I still think, this pathetic fixture 'll allow PAK team to qualify for QF, as they have the IRL match at Adelaide (However, hope WY picks Yasir for that match, 'll not be surprised if PAK goes with 4 pacers against IRL, because last time on that same ground Yasir went for plenty). In fact SAF looks to me more shaky than PAK, apart from their fielding, nothing is going as per plan. SAF is the quickest starter, but I am hardly impressed with their first 2 matches. BUT, now I think, PAK's journey 'll end at QF - most likely they are facing AUS in QF.
 
Saj said:
The obsession with bowling fast needs to end.

Yes bowling quick is great, bowling bouncers looks good but what's the point if you are getting hit all over.

Remember most of Wasim and Waqar's victims were out lbw or bowled !
Click to expand...

Wahab has good short balls.I remeber he was pretty economical upto the last 5 overs in both matches.
 
How under-rated is Shami? Since 2014, he is the highest wicket taker in the world in ODIs yet no one talks about him
 
What matters is that in 2 games in worldcup Indian bowlers took 20 wickets and in scores which were below what they had scored. Does it matter if its 135k or 145k ? Does it matter if bowler has aggression or not or if he is 7ft or 5ft in height or has silky hair or is bald. What matters is taking wickets and delivering wins...and if that is done...mission is accomplished.
 
Indians pacers are underrated where as ours are incredibly overrated. We seem to judge the quality of a bowler by his speed, Indian's have never had an express pacer but the likes of Shami, Bhuv Kumar, Yadav and Mohit are effective without being spectacular. As for Pak I have never understood what is so great about Mo Irfan other then being a freak show. Bounce at his height will naturally come to him but he offers very little else. Had the likes of Amir, Asif and Gul been available he would not be in the side.
 
I will bump this thread once Aamer, Junaid return. Once Sadaf finally gets his chance. Alongside Wahab in middle overs. Groomed Raza Hassan, then we shall see. Right now India obviously edges it.
 
Theo_14 said:
I will bump this thread once Aamer, Junaid return. Once Sadaf finally gets his chance. Alongside Wahab in middle overs. Groomed Raza Hassan, then we shall see. Right now India obviously edges it.
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Wasn't Junaid there in CT 2011?
 
I don't think pace even matters if you don't have your line and length going for you.
A prime example would be Muhammad Asif, bowled around mid 130's and swung the ball miles with consistent line and length.
 
I am not a fan of rubbing it in when someone/team is down but I have been saying this for a while now. Glad most people have come to accept the new reality #BleedBlue
 
Indian pacers are better than Pak's atm.

But give our bowlers a captain like Dhoni, a batting line up that consistantly puts up 300 runs, and a fielding unit that saves runs and takes catches than even our bowlers will be decent.

Its just that the whole Pakistan team right now is playing very bad cricket, obviously it is going to effect our bowlers too.
 
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