Indian Women's ODI WC 2025 glory in hindsight: Was 'pitch doctoring' the reason why their Men counterpart failed to replicate same success in 2023?

[Katwalindian]

We have won two ICC Trophy in England, one in South Africa , one in WI , One in UAE, one in India.

But current lot need dubai to shine.........

 

[CrIc_Mystique]

People here going gung ho about 'pitch doctoring' and the other political factors especially the 'panauti' thing - the same people said panauti till about the 16th over of the T20 WC finals, 2024 and got epic facepalmed when we won, did not raise the panauti bogey again in the CT, was totally absent in the AC and now in the W WC win.
Somehow they seem to think if we played in mumbai we would have won -whats the guarantee?
Aus played better on the day, A lot of indian players collectively froze on the day, if a few edges had gone to hand - who know, the results might have been different...or closer...
and its not that we never lost in mumbai - i remember Sanath Jaisurya absolutely razing us in one one triangular finals in the 90's in mumbai...
Also did'nt we loose the Mumbai test just recently vs NZ?
Don't forget we won 10/10 to reach that finals, we played like absolute Champions - its the vagaries of the game on a given day anyone can upset anyone.

 

[CrIc_Mystique]

Men's team didn't get to face choker South Africa. They faced Australia. So, they lost.

If Indian ladies team were facing England instead of South Africa, they probably would've lost also.

Facing South Africa in final generally means you have won since South Africa can't handle KO pressure.

One of the ATG cope posts....

 

[Hitman]

Icc trophy is overrated...It doesn't show the whole picture....like I rate india 2023 performance better than 2011.....

Which is why the whole of PP were singing the tunes of 'No ICC trophy in the past 10 years' before we won the 2024 T20 WC.

 

[prash88]

Doctored pitch or not - a champion team ll find a way to win on any pitch - flat, seaming or spinning.

It's actually Evan Gulbis effect that defeated India.

 

[jnaveen1980]

One of the ATG cope posts....

I generally don't troll women's cricket of any team (including our regular rivals) as the journey is a lot tougher for them compared to men. It is way harder for subcontinent players. But some sad little refugees find energy to down play achievements of fellow asian women cricketers.

 

[CrIc_Mystique]

Men's team didn't get to face choker South Africa. They faced Australia. So, they lost.

If Indian ladies team were facing England instead of South Africa, they probably would've lost also.

Facing South Africa in final generally means you have won since South Africa can't handle KO pressure.

Erm....WTC finals 2025 says hello....

 

[prash88]

No, uptill 2011 PCT were ahead of India..making it regularly to ICC tournament knockouts.

2003 was the cut off year when India started surpassing Pakistan cricket, with inspirational Ganguly as captain and new age players like Yuvraj Singh, Kaif etc., arriving....

 

[Hitman]

Pakistani fans are one of a kind.

 

[harshjoshi87]

People here going gung ho about 'pitch doctoring' and the other political factors especially the 'panauti' thing - the same people said panauti till about the 16th over of the T20 WC finals, 2024 and got epic facepalmed when we won, did not raise the panauti bogey again in the CT, was totally absent in the AC and now in the W WC win.
Somehow they seem to think if we played in mumbai we would have won -whats the guarantee?
Aus played better on the day, A lot of indian players collectively froze on the day, if a few edges had gone to hand - who know, the results might have been different...or closer...
and its not that we never lost in mumbai - i remember Sanath Jaisurya absolutely razing us in one one triangular finals in the 90's in mumbai...
Also did'nt we loose the Mumbai test just recently vs NZ?
Don't forget we won 10/10 to reach that finals, we played like absolute Champions - its the vagaries of the game on a given day anyone can upset anyone.

Sanath smashed 151* against a Srinath less Indian bowling attack in Independence Cup 1997 quadrangular series which also had New Zealand & Pakistan. Sri Lanka the World Champions then won that tournament easily, India took revenge a year later in Sri Lanka's Independence Cup 1998 tri-series by defeating them in the final.

 

[pillionrider]

Hahah...good for you otherwise you can reproduce the story of decade of hum...... IYKWIM

Tbh, women wc achievement is greater than others in the sense that you didn't manipulate or tweak things much this tournament. A first controversy free triumph after long long time.

Maybe it's the way Pakistani fans view a tournament. The Pak women's team finished bottom of the table this World Cup. So zero hopes. It then becomes easier to appreciate India.

On the other hand, with the Pak men's team, there's always hope for Pakistani fans, if not from performance from Qudrat .

In such a situation, convincing yourself that India doesn't deserve or has somehow cheated becomes a way to hide the disappointment in your own team.

Maybe that's all there is to it.

 

[BouncerGuy]

PLEASE STAY ON TOPIC

 

[Cryin Out Loud]

PLEASE STAY ON TOPIC

How can one stay on topic when the very premise of this thread takes an amazing victory and then goes off topic to connect it to an allegation in some other game that’s not even played by the same gender.

 

[The Bald Eagle]

Maybe it's the way Pakistani fans view a tournament. The Pak women's team finished bottom of the table this World Cup. So zero hopes. It then becomes easier to appreciate India.

On the other hand, with the Pak men's team, there's always hope for Pakistani fans, if not from performance from Qudrat .

In such a situation, convincing yourself that India doesn't deserve or has somehow cheated becomes a way to hide the disappointment in your own team.

Maybe that's all there is to it.

How can one stay on topic when the very premise of this thread takes an amazing victory and then goes off topic to connect it to an allegation in some other game that’s not even played by the same gender.

Brother @pillionrider I wasn't the one to raise pitch doctoring issue

The claims of Mohammed Kaif regarding pitch doctoring

"I was there for three days. Rohit Sharma and Rahul Dravid inspected the pitch every day for 3 days ahead of the final. They stood beside the pitch for an hour every day. I saw the pitch change its colour. There was no watering the pitch, no grass on the track. India wanted to give Australia a slow track. This is the truth, even if people don't want to believe it," Kaif said.

"The feeling was that Australia had Pat Cummins, and Mitchell Starc, so India wanted to give a slow pitch, and that was our mistake. Many people say that curators do their own thing and we don't influence - that is rubbish. When you are moving around the pitch - you have to say just two lines - please don't put water, just reduce the grass. This happens. That is truth. And it should be done. You are playing at home. And we did it a little too much,"

"Cummins took the learning from Chennai that batting is tough at the start in a slow match. Nobody fields first in a final, but Cummins did. We messed up while doctoring the pitch,"

India 'doctored' 2023 World Cup final pitch: Mohammed Kaif's bombshell charge

Former India cricketer Mohammed Kaif has alleged that India doctored the ODI World Cup Final pitch against Australia in Ahmedabad. Kaif alleged that he saw the pitch changing colour in the lead up to the final.

www.indiatoday.in

 

[CrIc_Mystique]

Brother @pillionrider I wasn't the one to raise pitch doctoring issue

sorry, i might have missed something or maybe my knowledge of pitches preparation is not the greatest....so for the last 3 days before the match, there was no grass on the pitch which means whatever grass there was prior to 3 days before the match was taken off & they didnt water the pitch for the 3 days... which means potentially the pitch received the last drop of water a minimum of 72 hours prior to the match start...

That qualifies as pitch doctoring?

Has this never been done in the histroy of pitches or matches ie taking grass off or not watering?

the only reason i bring this up is because the thread mentioned the Nov 2023 finals as a balancing act for the wonderful win by our women. ....

 

[The Bald Eagle]

sorry, i might have missed something or maybe my knowledge of pitches preparation is not the greatest....so for the last 3 days before the match, there was no grass on the pitch which means whatever grass there was prior to 3 days before the match was taken off & they didnt water the pitch for the 3 days... which means potentially the pitch received the last drop of water a minimum of 72 hours prior to the match start...

That qualifies as pitch doctoring?

Has this never been done in the histroy of pitches or matches ie taking grass off or not watering?

the only reason i bring this up is because the thread mentioned the Nov 2023 finals as a balancing act for the wonderful win by our women. ....

I would have never broached this topic, but since you call for clarity. This wasn't the only instance where India manipulated pitch to exploit opposition weakness.

Why Ind vs Aus was arranged at Chennai? Why Pak vs Afg( who is a predominantly spin side) was arranged in Chennai? And why you guys wanted a black soil pitch for final. I guess, if you had read Kaif's excerpt then he clearly has answers for it

"The feeling was that Australia had Pat Cummins, and Mitchell Starc, so India wanted to give a slow pitch, and that was our mistake. Many people say that curators do their own thing and we don't influence - that is rubbish."

 

[CrIc_Mystique]

I would have never broached this topic, but since you call for clarity. This wasn't the only instance where India manipulated pitch to exploit opposition weakness.

Why Ind vs Aus was arranged at Chennai? Why Pak vs Afg( who is a predominantly spin side) was arranged in Chennai? And why you guys wanted a black soil pitch for final. I guess, if you had read Kaif's excerpt then he clearly has answers for it

"The feeling was that Australia had Pat Cummins, and Mitchell Starc, so India wanted to give a slow pitch, and that was our mistake. Many people say that curators do their own thing and we don't influence - that is rubbish."

Ok, Bhai - fair point.

My take is if it is an ICC tournament, the host nation or the two finalists should never have a say in pitch preparation and leave it to stadium association authorities or pitches committes or whatever similar organization. I am with you and if BCCI or whoever done that , i condemn this and wish it was never done.

My point is Not watering a pitch for 3 days or taking grass off 3 days prior - have'nt heaps of groundsmen the world over, done this? - is'nt this normal pitch preparation as opposed to pitch doctoring? Would taking grass off 3 days prior or leaving grass on for 15 days prior or not watering a pitch for 3 days prior or watering a pitch for 3 days right till the start of the match be called pitch doctoring/tampering?

Just like changing the condition of a ball using sandpaapr or sharp objects like bottle tops or pant's zipper or using vaselin - ie using artificial substances, is ball tampering unless the pitch surface has been scraped using knifes, or raked using a rake or dug using a spade or used any external implements/auzaar - isnt what the groundsmen did - part of normal pitch preparation?

My take on pak vs Afg in Chennai or wherever - the Pak matches except the india game in Ahmedabad were predominantly in Hyd, Blr and Chennai as BCCI felt lesser 'threat' or logistical issues in keeping Pak limited to Southern India. But Chennai takes the same amount of spin as say - Nagpur or Lucknow or Rajkot or Indore or Calcutta or several other indian venues.

In fact Chennai was the one pitch which always has even bounce, the ball comes on fantastically and if pacemen bend their back- can get good carry but day 1.5 to day 3.75 approx - its like at adelaide/Cape Town-batsmen can line up and hit thru the line or time the ball thru the infield without having to use a power game - case in point the 1978 test match vs pak or 1979 vs the Windies or even the 1996 semis - NZ vs Aus - if you see footage of these - its almost Aus like tennis bounce ....

Am not sure of the connotations of placing pak's match vs Afg in Chennai would have on overall effect on the championship or would this guarantee a Afg win or if pak played Afg in another city were they sure to win?

Sorry, i mean no disrespect to you or any one - i just wanted to voice what i think...

 

[The Bald Eagle]

Ok, Bhai - fair point.

My take is if it is an ICC tournament, the host nation or the two finalists should never have a say in pitch preparation and leave it to stadium association authorities or pitches committes or whatever similar organization. I am with you and if BCCI or whoever done that , i condemn this and wish it was never done.

My point is Not watering a pitch for 3 days or taking grass off 3 days prior - have'nt heaps of groundsmen the world over, done this? - is'nt this normal pitch preparation as opposed to pitch doctoring? Would taking grass off 3 days prior or leaving grass on for 15 days prior or not watering a pitch for 3 days prior or watering a pitch for 3 days right till the start of the match be called pitch doctoring/tampering?

Just like changing the condition of a ball using sandpaapr or sharp objects like bottle tops or pant's zipper or using vaselin - ie using artificial substances, is ball tampering unless the pitch surface has been scraped using knifes, or raked using a rake or dug using a spade or used any external implements/auzaar - isnt what the groundsmen did - part of normal pitch preparation?

My take on pak vs Afg in Chennai or wherever - the Pak matches except the india game in Ahmedabad were predominantly in Hyd, Blr and Chennai as BCCI felt lesser 'threat' or logistical issues in keeping Pak limited to Southern India. But Chennai takes the same amount of spin as say - Nagpur or Lucknow or Rajkot or Indore or Calcutta or several other indian venues.

In fact Chennai was the one pitch which always has even bounce, the ball comes on fantastically and if pacemen bend their back- can get good carry but day 1.5 to day 3.75 approx - its like at adelaide/Cape Town-batsmen can line up and hit thru the line or time the ball thru the infield without having to use a power game - case in point the 1978 test match vs pak or 1979 vs the Windies or even the 1996 semis - NZ vs Aus - if you see footage of these - its almost Aus like tennis bounce ....

Am not sure of the connotations of placing pak's match vs Afg in Chennai would have on overall effect on the championship or would this guarantee a Afg win or if pak played Afg in another city were they sure to win?

Sorry, i mean no disrespect to you or any one - i just wanted to voice what i think...

Good mate, that you voiced your concern. But for clarity I double checked and fetched the definition of pitch doctoring from Google AI overview:

"Pitch doctoring is the act of altering a sports pitch, particularly in cricket and baseball, to gain an unfair advantage. In cricket, this often involves manipulating the pitch to favor the home team, such as creating a very dry, "spinning" wicket or a fast, bouncy one, to suit their strengths. It is a controversial practice that can lead to allegations of cheating. "

 

[Vikram1989]

Erm....WTC finals 2025 says hello....

U may be one of his proudly blocked hundreds of posters.He spew venom and vanish

 

[CrIc_Mystique]

Good mate, that you voiced your concern. But for clarity I double checked and fetched the definition of pitch doctoring from Google AI overview:

"Pitch doctoring is the act of altering a sports pitch, particularly in cricket and baseball, to gain an unfair advantage. In cricket, this often involves manipulating the pitch to favor the home team, such as creating a very dry, "spinning" wicket or a fast, bouncy one, to suit their strengths. It is a controversial practice that can lead to allegations of cheating. "

Thanks.
But i am also aware as much as the next person, on google or any search engine or any query based seeking device, you get answers to what you ask.

if cutting grass is pitch doctoring, wouldnt the pitch be part of the outfield in no time if it constitutes pitchdoctoring and hence not cut? similary if not watering is pitch doctoring then when will it receive water?

What are the cut off parameters in terms of num of days / hours before the start of the match or maybe length/height of grass in mm or quantity or area spread or in case of water - what is specifically the number of hours of watering or quantity of water that is used or what is the time frame of the watering/ie specific num of days/hours before a match that shoudl be followed to ensure it is not 'pitch doctoring'?

Sorry, but the link from mo kaif is he has voiced his concerns and fair game to him, but it has been unfairly labelled as 'pitch doctoring' and that is eye candy to bring eye balls to websites.

As far as not wanting to play aus elsehwere as they have 'starc, cummins' as you have alluded in your earlier post and hence to play Aus in chennai to ensure/guarantee a win - if BCCI were that fantastic a masterlmind does not other sides have ace pace line ups....i mean SAF, ENG, NZ were well stocked with quality pacemen and so is PAK, so why did india not play all its matches against these teams in Chennai?

At best what BCCI did might be borderline un ethical...but if one gets into technicalities - is it really pitch doctoring to gain an unfair advantage?

Just becoz india lost and the whole attention was on the loss - a lot of people are getting away with tarring this as 'pitch doctoring' or the seeming suggestion that BCCI manipulated the entire tournament and tried to cheat to get its team to win....

 

[The Bald Eagle]

Thanks.
But i am also aware as much as the next person, on google or any search engine or any query based seeking device, you get answers to what you ask.

if cutting grass is pitch doctoring, wouldnt the pitch be part of the outfield in no time if it constitutes pitchdoctoring and hence not cut? similary if not watering is pitch doctoring then when will it receive water?

What are the cut off parameters in terms of num of days / hours before the start of the match or maybe length/height of grass in mm or quantity or area spread or in case of water - what is specifically the number of hours of watering or quantity of water that is used or what is the time frame of the watering/ie specific num of days/hours before a match that shoudl be followed to ensure it is not 'pitch doctoring'?

Sorry, but the link from mo kaif is he has voiced his concerns and fair game to him, but it has been unfairly labelled as 'pitch doctoring' and that is eye candy to bring eye balls to websites.

As far as not wanting to play aus elsehwere as they have 'starc, cummins' as you have alluded in your earlier post and hence to play Aus in chennai to ensure/guarantee a win - if BCCI were that fantastic a masterlmind does not other sides have ace pace line ups....i mean SAF, ENG, NZ were well stocked with quality pacemen and so is PAK, so why did india not play all its matches against these teams in Chennai?

At best what BCCI did might be borderline un ethical...but if one gets into technicalities - is it really pitch doctoring to gain an unfair advantage?

Just becoz india lost and the whole attention was on the loss - a lot of people are getting away with tarring this as 'pitch doctoring' or the seeming suggestion that BCCI manipulated the entire tournament and tried to cheat to get its team to win....

Just a simple question, what's your thoughts on Industrial fans curated pitch?

 

[The Bald Eagle]

Guys please refrain from off topic stuff

 

[NishanKonar]

Yes it was a big blunder to tinker with pitches during 2023 World Cup

Backfired badly in the final. I think Rohit thought that even if Australia won toss - they wud bat first. But Australia played group game against England & knew the conditions

It was basically win toss win game situation. Black soil absorbs moisture very fast. So once dew came - it transformed quickly from slow spinning pitch to good batting pitch under lights

2 things

1. Should have used red soil pitch
2. Played final on a fresh pitch